Here on Podcasting Tech, we're always looking at companies, solutions, software, things that can help the podcaster, help them be more successful, help them grow their show, and grow their show in ways that maybe they hadn't even thought of. With that in mind, we are delighted to be chatting with Pat Chung. He's the founder of Famlyst, formerly Pod Inbox. Pat, thank you so much for joining us. Hey. Thanks for having me. So I remember first learning
about Pod Inbox. You were a company at, I believe, Podfest or maybe Podcast Movement, and you were doing this giveaway that basically, you know, buy one time lifetime plan. And the whole idea was it was this little widget that podcasters could use, put on their website, and fans could record audio messages that then the podcasters could use on their show. But you've
evolved tremendously since then. So kinda take us through just a little bit about the beginning and and where you're kinda heading these days. Sure. Wow. If you remember the lifetime plan, so you were one of the early, early ones. Yeah. Yeah. So we launched a podcast movement, about, I think, over 3 years ago now. And yeah. Yeah. We launched with a lifetime plan. We came out with a really simple idea with which is, we saw this need that podcasters had, which is to receive
audio messages from fans. So we looked across a lot of prolific podcasters, and we found that, a lot of them had this segment on their show where they're where they feature a fan message. So we kind of looked at, oh, how are they getting that fan message? Because it wasn't too straightforward, with some of the podcasts that I follow. I'm like, oh, we heard a lot of Podcasting say email us, you know,
your message, which we thought, you know, that's kinda cumbersome. I at that time, I probably wouldn't even know how to kind of record something on my phone and kind of email it to them. Right? So we thought, let's build a better solution for that. Yeah. So that's what we set out to do, and, yeah, we created that. It was pretty full featured actually by
the time we launched, and, yeah, sold a lot of one time deals. I think I remember actually communicating with you and saying that I thought you should have the ability to like, I think you originally had to be on the Pod Inbox website, but I said, what if we can embed this on our website? And I believe you responded pretty quickly saying, yes. We'll work on that. And then
it was like, a few days later, you guys had it up and running. So you are very responsive, to the folks and to the fans who are out there. So Yeah. How did it start to evolve? Where did it go from there? Sure. That's a great question. And maybe I'll kinda address what you said about the widget. Actually, we're not actually big fans of the widget. So we do have a widget because people are asking for it, but I think what people want to do is drive people to their website, which is
understandable. Your website's your brand. But, you know, I've been a UX designer, a user experience designer for over 15 years. And what, you know, personally branded websites don't do well is a lot of times they're kind of confusing for users, just to be totally frank. Right? They they they talk a lot about themselves. They they have content, you know, that
people wanna engage in. So there's just a lot going on. And when you when you jump to sort of personal website to personal website as a fan, you don't really like, there Tech some it takes some time for that person to digest what's going on in that website and to really understand it. Right? So the reason why I'm not a big fan of that widget that we built is the
widget is usually a very direct call to action. Right? So if you want someone to, you know, take an action on your website, your personal branded website is oftentimes not the best place to do it because there's a just a lot to sort of understand. And a lot of, you know, people nowadays, and even back then when I first started being a UX designer, they just don't have the attention span to kinda, you know, go through
everything. So we really, you know, to answer your question, how how we evolved is we really put a lot more energy into the fan page. So the fan page is built so that it's just super intuitive and super, simple. So when you're a fan going to a podcaster's fan page or a creator's fan page, it's very obvious what what the creator wants that fan to do. And, yeah, message is a big part of it. That said, yeah, we we updated the widget too. The widget's super powerful. It's probably
the best widget on on the market. But, you know, when we really you know, I do a lot of demos still for the product. And whenever I sort of coach or train podcasters, I'm like, Mathew. Use the widget. You know, you you might see some conversion of of fans taking an action. But if you really wanna take an action, you know, just link to the fan page. That that's where they could take not only one action, but many more actions, you know, which also to
answer your question, how do we evolve? We yeah. We developed a lot more features that we can't just fit on a widget and and those features around monetization. Right? We kind of asked ourselves, how else can a fan engage other than leaving audio messages and text messages? Well, we thought, you know, a lot of fans wanna support the show. They wanna donate. They wanna buy stuff. They wanna, subscribe. Yeah. So things like that. Yeah. Not not not not not to sell it too much, but, yeah, that's
how we evolved. No. I mean, that's exactly what we should be doing is selling it so that folks can check it out and see if it's right for them. So just to, you know, summarize for folks, some of the core product features of FamelessNow. Again, you still have the ability to message folks. You do lead capture. You can do memberships, private subscriptions, tips and donations, paid perks, chat rooms, widgets, and a leaderboard, which I love the
gamification of Podcasting. That's always a nice way to drive interest. People always like to win the game. What are you finding is the most used feature with podcasters today that are using Fanlist? Yeah. Good question. I think it's still the audio messaging feature. I think it's probably because that's what we launched with, and that's what people have known us for for a long time. So which is maybe kind of lead into you
know, we went through a branding change. When we first launched, we were called Pod Inbox. We wanted to give an inbox for podcasters, like this audio inbox, that hence the name. But after we, you know, created this whole suite of features, we're like, is the inbox still the most important thing? We're like, actually, no. Probably probably not. As much as that's probably the most used feature, we kind of see that as the lead funnel now. Right? So let's say you're a podcaster and you're like, you
know, I really want my fans to engage. I really wanna build my newsletter email list. Right? That's kinda what they teach all of us to try to build that email list that you could own that fan, right, versus kinda borrowing it from social media platforms. So we're like, well, yeah. You know, that's how we kinda changed the name too. We're like, well, our platform is really to help creators and podcasters build their fan list, to build their email list. So we're like, fan list is a pretty good
name. I mean, to answer your question, the the most used feature is the inbox, and we think that's a great first feature to use. Right? Because if you're a Podcasting wanting to build your email list, oftentimes they kinda teach us to, you know, have that, lead gen, that that kind of free giveaway. What better free giveaway for a podcaster than to, you know, tell your fans, hey. You could leave a message here. I'll I'll listen to it. I'll reply to it, and
we might even feature it on the show. Right? So as they kinda dive into your fan page and they say, oh, not only can I leave a message, I could do all these other things too? So we kinda like that the inbox is like the first touch for for any fan. And then you also have like I said, once you get people to maybe leave a message down, you're doing email capture, then you can sell them on the memberships, the donations, the private subscriptions. Are you finding that a lot of shows are seeing
success with those features? I think many small podcasters worry that or fine sometimes even that, you know, just because they create these paid features doesn't mean anybody's actually joining them. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to set expectations. One of the things we teach a lot is sort of kind of a common rule of the Internet is, like, about 5 to 10%. Actually, to be quite honest, it's usually anywhere from 1 to Tech% of your audience will take an action, will participate.
So it might not be a lot. So if you have a 100 listeners to your podcast, which is pretty common, maybe only 1 to Tech people will actually take an action, might give a tip or might subscribe. But, you know, I think if you do a good job, it might trend more towards the 10%, which is pretty good. Right? You know, we all often do the calculation of, like, you know, a lot
of podcasters, they are interested in monetizing. Takes a lot of effort to put together a podcast Passy you know, and and getting rewarded for it is, it feels good. So a lot of times we do the calculation, you know, between, like, fan monetization versus sponsorships, which is another common way to earn money, of course. And a lot of times, yeah, fan monetization kinda wins out, in terms of just looking at the numbers of, you know, how successful it could
be. And, of course, it's important that if you're a podcaster hearing this, that you can't just say, oh, now you can pay for our show. You have to deliver value in exchange. People aren't just gonna give you money just because you asked for it, but they will give you money if you if you provide value for what it is you are asking them for. For $5, you better be giving them better content or, you know, more episodes that are fulfill the mission of what it is you told folks to check
out, when they came to your show in the first place. What about the, leaderboard? How does that one work? Leaderboard is just basically in design what we call a face pile. Right? It's a pretty light touch, and it's just a way to give a little recognition to the fans. Like, we looked across a lot of the other creator economy platforms, and they don't really sort of pay back the fan, and we're really about that payback. A lot like what you said. I I mean, I could go on for hours about,
you know, giving value and value for value. I'm a huge believer in that. And, hopefully, even, you know, I think you you mentioned mentioned Podcasting, tip you. Right? It's always about value. So as you as you mentioned, as we're talking about, you know, value being important, do you track or do you have a sense of what are some of the best add ons or what are some of the best, like, perks that podcasters are giving away or perks that podcasters are finding
are most effective for growing an audience. Like, if I go to the demo page and I look at buy a perk, you've got a 3 books on fan engagement for $3, episode chat up for 10, private Zoom call. Like, do you kinda take a look and track at what people are using those perks for? And and if so, any that are standout successes? Not really. We have some of our favorites, but there's such a diverse group of different creators and podcasters using our perks feature.
And just to give the audience some indication what a perks feature is, it's basically an online shop that you could create, very easy and offer fans to buy stuff. Right? Usually, they're digital goods, things like digital downloads, and some of the
things you mentioned, like, shout outs and stuff. I think, you know, the things that we teach a lot are maybe stems from a lot of podcasters we Tech to, and we talk to a ton of them, that they're usually afraid to start selling something because it's hard to create stuff to sell. So we like to, you know, think about stuff that's easy for a podcaster to sell. So, like, episode shout outs. Right? We all do
podcasts. So Doesn't cost you anything. Yeah. It doesn't cost you anything. And if you, you know, if you say, hey, you know, buy this episode shout out perk, on our fan page, and we'll give you a shout out, then you could just start giving shout outs on your, on your podcast. So our favorites are the things that are easy and kind of free. You know, another good example, it's not free, but, like, a lot of times people just wanna
meet you for a Zoom call. We kinda call that, like, a higher ticket item. Right? So let's say I'm a fan of your your your podcast, Matthew, and I'm like, oh, you know, I really you know, Matthew seems like expert in his industry. I would love to just get, like, a 30 minute Zoom call with them. Well, you know, how are you gonna sell that Zoom call? Right? It's
hard. You have to kind of, you know, either create a Shopify store or or choose one of these types of platforms or you could just create that perk on your fan page. So Zoom calls are great, you know, and you could charge you know, it's hard to say what to charge for it. But, you know, we've seen people charge $200 for a 30 minute Zoom call because they're, you
know, they're a prolific podcaster. So those are kind of our favorites because sort of anyone across the board could do that, whether you're, you know, like, a true crime podcast or or or you're you're selling financial advice, you know, whatever it is. It's it's pretty relevant. Yeah. That's, I like that idea of selling the Zoom calls and the consultations. We, might have to think about that and and think about implementing that here on the Podcasting Tech show.
And and one thing that we should let everybody know is that the pricing of your Rodecaster. Right? This is a you know, a lot of times Podcasting What do you mean by totally different approach? Because recently we did a lot of changes. So we changed our name from pod inbox to fan list, and we changed our business model too. So, depending on what you remember, so for the longest time, we're a paid service, in the industry, what's called SaaS. Right? Right. This is this is what I wanna
get to because on your site, you say the service is basically free. Yeah. And now we just as of early this year, 2024, we've changed to a totally free model. So we used to have a pro plan where you had to pay, you know, about $10 a month to get all the pro features. We thought, you know what? You know, we just hated the idea of, like, pay walling or feature gating our best features for the paid plan. So we're like, well, what if we just gave
it away for free? So that's what we just we decided to do, and, the only way we make money is just based off of transaction fees. So, you know, let's say you never use our monetization features. You only use our inbox. Well, you get all all the benefits of all the pro inbox features now for free. That's amazing. So, yeah, you should definitely check out fanlist.com. Tech have a link to it obviously here in the show notes. And take a take a spin around. They've got a demo on there.
They list all the features, so you can kinda see how it works. It integrates with some of the other services that we've talked about, including pod page. So it's not like you have to give up something else to use it. And again, cost you nothing to, check out. So, Pat, before we let you go, we have a few questions that we're asking everybody here on the show. I know, obviously, you're working on this piece of fan engagement, but is there another place inside
podcasting that you'd like to see improvement? Is there, you know, service or changes or something that you think would help the podcasting world? Oh, that's a tough one. I mean, yeah, my mind is mainly on fan engagement. I've been kind of working in and around this industry for, like, 10 years, so I think about that, you know, day and night. That's something I think about
day and night. But we we you know, has a lot of, podcast Tech, is thinking about AI has come into the conversation quite a bit, and we even think about it a lot. Even in the early days of OpenAI, we implemented an OpenAI technology not a lot of people know about is called Whisper. So that's we use Whisper to do our transcriptions. So, you know, by using AI, we're allowed you know, we're able to offer transcriptions for free. Whereas before, when we were thinking of doing that feature, we're
like, oh, should we charge a little bit more for transcriptions? And the way we use transcriptions are, if someone leaves you an audio message, a lot of times, you know, for some of our high end you or high volume users, it's hard for them to listen to every single message. Right? So somewhere in the lifetime of our product, we thought, you know, we really could use transcription. So because, you know, when someone leaves a message, we email the the creator,
you know, that that they received a message. So if we could put the transcription in there, they might not even need to listen to the message if they didn't want. So convenience and so like that, we thought AI has been super helpful already. You know, they offer this free service, a free transcription service that we could build on. But, yeah, as AI grows, yeah, I don't know if I could share yet, but like there's some of these, really interesting features that we're
thinking of creating that leverages AI. And, kind of in this fan engagement type of, realm. So once again, it's under the guise of fan engagement. It's something that we're thinking of bolting on to Fanlist. And it's something, unfortunately, I can't share too much of it yet, but super exciting. And I think that's where the industry, you know, when I think of, some of the next technologies that that's gonna rise. Like, we have, like, things like show notes already, obviously, that are
some cool companies and technologies around that. That just makes our life a little bit easier. But, you know, when I think about it, it's like, how can we use AI to make, podcasting a little bit more interesting? Not just to maybe solve a productivity problem that we see a lot of AI companies doing, but to solve an entertainment problem, maybe. So, yeah, that that that's what I'll tease out right now. Alright. And maybe, once we release it, we'll have you back on so we could talk about, the new
features that you're you're rolling out here for Fanlist. I noticed that you're using a Shure MV 7 as your microphone. Mhmm. I'm curious. What are you using for your camera and anything else for recording? Oh, my camera, I'm using a Sony a72 mirrorless. Right now, it's fuzzy because I don't know why. I think I just turned it on before this call, and I forgot to focus it. Yeah. It's a mirrorless camera. It's got a pretty nice lens. It's, f 4 16 millimeter lens.
It is a nice picture. And actually, somebody else, we just had the show, was using the exact same camera. So, obviously, very popular. Is there any technology on your wish list? Is there anything out there either you know that that exists that you wanna get your hands on or something that you want created that would, improve your podcast operation? Yeah.
Something I'm about to go run out to buy today. Maybe I'm saying it because you asked me about my camera, but I'm thinking of dabbling with a new camera, with a new, mic setup that's a little bit more on the go, run and gun type thing. I do a lot of traveling. I love traveling. I do a lot for, you know, professional life and and personal life. So I and I like small rigs. Right? I'm kinda like a big
EDC geek, you know, everyday carry type guy. You know, what can you throw in your bag, and how can you be like a road warrior type Samson? So the setup I'm looking at is, the DJI Pocket camera. It's I think it's called the DJI Pocket 3. It's their 3rd version of their pocket camera. And I could talk about that a little bit, but it's it's a cool piece of gear, because it also comes with a
wireless mic. So I think this piece of gear is kind of changing the landscape for a lot of vloggers, but I think it's gonna be big in podcasting too because, you know, it's a camera that's gonna be way better than the camera that's on your, computer, which I'm all about. But, like, to haul my rig around, if I if I were to show you a picture of my setup, it's it's just it's too much. It's insane. You can't throw this in a backpack. So that was the DJI
Pocket 2? Yeah. Yeah. And it comes what's incredible about it is it comes with this wireless mic that even the mic is awesome because if you buy buy the mic package, it's the DJ wireless microphone, package. And that's a cool package in itself if you need, like, multi
mic. But for, you know, the types of Podcasting that I do, interviews, and even being a podcast guest, that's you know, I could probably leave all this stuff at home and just bring the pocket camera and with that comes with the wireless mic and just use that as a podcast setup. I'm not sure how new it is, but there also looks like there's a pocket 3 available. Obviously, it's a little bit more fun. What I'm talking about. Oh, the pocket 3. Yeah. That's the one
I'm talking about. The pocket 3. Yeah. I I would not recommend the Pocket 2 or the Pocket 1. Tech kinda dabbled in those a little bit, and but with the top Pocket 3, that's really the game changer, and I think it came out. Yeah. I wanna say, like, 6 months ago now. So it's something like that. Nice. Well, we'll, we'll put a link to it, by the way, if anybody wants to
check it out so they could see, exactly what Pat is talking about. And then, of course, we always ask everybody, what is the podcast that you are listening to? What's the 1 or 2 that, you know, no matter what happens, you're gonna make sure that you listen to that podcast when it drops? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. It's hard to pick 1. It's like, you ask people what their favorite song
is or favorite movie is impossible. So similar with me, I would listen to so many Rodecaster, but I mean, if I were to choose 1, maybe a podcast called My First Million. I love it. These, 2 hosts are just super not just informational, but entertaining. So, you know, they're kinda like a financial I don't even know how you would categorize it, but they they talk about start ups. They talk about entrepreneurship, and they're very informational. But I pretty much just listened to
them kind of on the background. I think they have, like, 2 or 3 episodes a week. And, they're just entertaining. Very cool. Well, we'll, we'll put a link to that show. We'll also put a link to fanless as we talked about the product here that Pat is the founder of. And we'll also include a link to podcast growth hacks. And I assume the website that I'm looking at is a a
Famless page for it? Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at the website, that's just a custom website I built, but I do have a fan list, fan page for it too. Yeah. We'll make sure to put a link to that so that people can check out the Podcasting action and, check out your show as well. Pat Chung, founder of Fanlist, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me.