So excited for our guest today. I've had the pleasure of speaking with her a few times, but she always has her ear to the ground when it comes to podcasting and really has the pulse of what people are looking for and what they like. We are chatting with, of course, Ariel Nissenblatt. She's the founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective. That's a podcast recommendation newsletter. She's on the board of governors of the podcast
academy. And from what I understand, she has maybe 4 or 5. I know she just tripped the other day and launched another new podcast. So lots of great content out there that we will link to and share with you. Ariel, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. What a great intro. Oh, I'm glad you liked it. So, before we get into all the things that you're doing now, how did you first really get started in the podcasting space? Were you just a fan, fan, a
listener? Were you creating it? Like, what was your entry point to wanting to be here? Definitely listener first. I actually think you and I spoke in, like, 2017. Do you remember this? That's yes. Possibly. 1000000 years ago. 4,000,000 now. You're definitely part of my early understanding the podcast landscape story. Yeah. I started as a listener. I really just wanted to listen and did not think I would ever start a podcast myself because
I just thought nobody needed to hear my voice. You could hear my voice, but you didn't need it. And I still you know, I'm not ever gonna say, like, you must listen to my podcast about podcast recommendations, but I do try to bring something new to the space in that way and provide some podcast discoverability mechanisms there. But, yes, started as a listener and then realized that I wanted to listen to more podcasts, but didn't know
how to find them in a way that I trusted. So, for example, maybe I was scrolling on the apps, and I would see a bunch of shows being promoted, and I would try to check them out, and I didn't love them. I wanted personalized recommendations, and I wanted those
recommendations from people that I already trusted. So I started Earbuds Podcast Collective, which you mentioned, in order to get recommendations from new people every week because the the way the newsletter works is that each week is curated by a different person, and anyone can curate a list. That is amazing. So I I just wanna go back real quickly to something you said. And given that, you know, you start as a listener, you've had lots of industry experience right all the way up to
being on the board of governors over there. You said that you want personalized recommendations, and I think that plays to a theme that I've talked about a lot and a lot of people might agree with is that really the best way that people discover and really start to listen to a new podcast is by hearing about it from a person they know, like, or trust.
And that seems to be what's happening with, you know, the the newsletter that not only are you recommending, but you're bringing in other people to curious list of recommending. Are you seeing that that's the trend that more people are are likely to find and subscribe and actually engage with a show if they've been given some sort of recommendation by someone in their universe, even if it's, you know, written someone written an article, they appeared on another
podcast, or, you know, the friend told them about it? I think podcast discovery is a multi channel approach, and I think that there are a number of different ways in for every single person who discovers a podcast at a different time. I just think that there are too many variables in order to make any sweeping statements about how discovery works for any even any one person. I discover podcasts in different ways.
For example, I was about to push back and say, you know, I get most of my recommendations from newsletters and from cross promos, not so much from word-of-mouth, but it really is, like, every once in a while. I mean, I bumped into a friend on the subway recently, and she was telling me about a show that she produces for Sony Music. And I had never heard of it before, but I was so intrigued by her word-of-mouth
telling me about it that I went and subscribed to it. But then there's also, like you know, normal gossip is a big word-of-mouth show. There's a bunch of shows that just get kinda passed around in the podcast space, but I really think that everybody at different times has different entry points to different podcasts based on, you know, what they're in the mood for, if
they need to learn something rather than be entertained by it. I think this is potentially a unique problem in the podcast space because TV seems to function differently for how people try to consume it or do consume it. But I think that with podcasting, we're we're always finding different ways
in. I'm curious with all the shows that you have recommended with all the lists that you've curated both yourself and by others, have you gotten feedback from any of the shows saying that they saw any, you know, noticeable uptick in listenership, followers, anything like that? Yes. Definitely. I can point to a few that have, like, reached out to me specifically and said thank you for featuring us. We saw an
uptick in traffic that week. But the smartest thing to do if you're featured in the newsletter is to milk that for all it's worth even beyond just, like, the actual download. So, like, screenshotting it and posting it and saying we're so excited to be featured and tagging the person who curated the list that featured you and really just posting
it everywhere on social and tagging earbuds so that we can repost it. I think a lot of podcast promotion a lot of promotion in general is about perception and how it seems like you're doing. So I don't know. I run into people all the time who I'm like, wow. Your life looks amazing on Instagram. And they're like, yeah. I'm depressed, but I do travel a lot. So I think it's all about, like, how how are how is your podcast showing up on social media? How are people
perceiving it? Do they do they think it's doing really well? And if they think it's doing really well, there's a chance that they might listen to it. So let's say you're a show that just got named and, you know, you're gonna be appearing in the newsletter. What would you do as the podcaster? What advice would you give that podcaster to milk it to take advantage beyond just promoting that announcement? Right? It's it's great to get people to check out your show, but what do you do to
keep them? What do you do to make them an engaged listener and someone who will not only listen and subscribe, but maybe then advocate for your show on your behalf? Yeah. I mean, a few things here. This reminds me of an on ramp creation strategy for your podcast. So people are gonna discover your podcast, and some of them are gonna wanna continue becoming your loyal listeners, and some of them are gonna see themselves out. And the people that become your loyal listeners, they might
need to be nurtured in some ways. And even once they become listeners for a long time, there could be the slightest thing that turns them off. So how are you how are you taking all of that into account when you make your show and when you run your marketing communications and things like that? So I think the first thing to do is to have a trailer that somebody can listen to and decide if that show is for them. And if that show is for them, maybe you explain some of the inside jokes, you know, in
a way that doesn't totally take away the the mystique. But you just make sure that there's there's a way for people to understand what's going on in the show even if it's been going on for 5, 10 years. So I think a trailer is really, really helpful. It allows you to put it in most of the hosting providers, you're allowed to mark that a trailer is a trailer. And then on most of the listening apps,
you can see a designated space for that trailer. So it kind of draws the potential listener to that to try to test out the show via the trailer. And in that, you can introduce yourself. You can introduce your show. You can introduce how often the show is gonna drop. What's the purpose?
Who is this for? Few other things here and there. I have a whole podcast about podcast trailers that I go way more into depth on all of this, But I think that really helps people when it comes to getting a sense of who you are and deciding if they wanna stick around for the long term, becoming your loyal listener. I I also think, when it comes to becoming a loyal listener, really sticking around beyond just the first episode, if you're
subscribed on sorry. Beyond just the first episode, if you are featured in earbuds, for example, or if you get featured on Apple Podcasts, I think a big part of that is welcoming those people in specifically. So you can say if you know you're being featured on Castbox, if you know you're being featured on Apple Podcasts, you can say something like, welcome to all of our new subscribers who have joined us from Apple Podcasts. We're so excited that you're here. Thank you to
the folks at Apple Podcasts for featuring us. It means the world to us. We're getting so many ratings and reviews, and that's just a way to actively call out those people. And they might say to themselves, wow. I'm new here. That's a nice welcome. That is. And, you know, if you're using dynamic content insertion technology, my recommendation would be is to put that message in dynamically because you don't know. Right? Your your show could get featured, but that
person might not be listening to the most recent episode. They might go back in the archives and be like, oh, that looks like a guest who's more interesting to me. I'm gonna check that out. And so having that, you know, present message in archived or older content can really be helpful. So how did you then make the switch from, you know, passionate listener and advocate for podcasters into someone behind, the microphone, a a fancy Shure MV 7, I might add, at this time?
How did I make the switch? Great question. In 2019, I was running the earbuds newsletter for about two and a half years, and I had been on a few podcasts talking about podcasting and about my newsletter and about my career transitioning into the podcast space. And I it's fun. Like, there is something fun and creative about launching a new thing. And I was talking to my friend who's now very big on TikTok, Miriam_tini,
doing podcast recommendations. She's great. And she was saying, like, how do you not have a podcast that that talks about your newsletter? It seems like an easy lift. And I was like, okay. Yeah. It does seem like an easy lift. So I I went home. I ordered a microphone, which at the time was I just bought it from a friend. It wasn't anything fancy. And I, I started doing an audio version of my newsletter,
and it was very easy. It was very I was just reading the newsletter out loud, maybe adding a few words here and there to make sure a sentence sounded like a sentence in a spoken manner. And I did that for a few months, and then I realized that it was boring as hell because my mom told me that it was boring. And then I decided, let me interview the
curators. And then I decided that that was way too much of a lift, so then I found a middle ground where I would ask the curators to send in a voice note telling me about the theme that they chose and the episodes that they chose as part of that theme. So that was the evolution of the show, and I ran it from 2019 to 2023. And I took a break in December of 2023, and that break is still going on. Okay. So that that's
how I got started in podcasting. And then from there, I started a bunch of other shows, and mostly so that I could help advise other people on creating shows and being able to advise on what's successful in what markets and for which types of listeners. What would you say was the biggest surprise that you learned about podcasting in that journey? I mean, it's it's one thing to tell people how to podcast, promote podcast, see them grow, but, you know, you're
putting one together yourself. You're, you know, recording and producing, editing, publishing it. What was the thing where you're like, I would never have thought? I would never have thought that there would be so many hosting providers that do very similar things. And I think it's kind of a misnomer. It's kind of a an issue for people when they don't know anything about the podcast space, and they go to Google and
they say, what ho what podcast hosting provider should I use? And, really, just the thing that pops up is the thing that has the best SEO that day. And, truthfully, yeah, there are differences between hosting providers, but for the most part, they're hosting your, your RSS feed,
and they're distributing it. And you get various levels of, analytics available to you and different ways of, uploading your content and make sure making sure that it's tagged the right way and things like that, but it's mostly the same engine, and I think that can be
really confusing to a lot of people who are just starting out. When I started, I I've used almost every hosting provider because I've wanted to test them all out in some way so that I could advise other people on what provider because I've wanted to test them all out in some way so that I could advise other people on what might be best for them. And unlike when people ask me when they have a newsletter, if they like, what's the difference between Substack and Mailchimp and Beehive and
Kit and things like that? There, I have an answer for them. Substack is generally better for writing long pieces. Mailchimp is generally better if you want people to click and do some e ecommerce. I don't really feel that way about pasta podcast hosting providers, and I think that that can definitely be a limiting factor for people that are just getting started out. That is interesting. Maybe we'll have to take some time and
talk about all the different features of all the different hosting companies. But, yeah, I mean, truthfully, you know, my recommendation has always been think about the features that you need, see who has it, see who is, you know, within your budget, make sure
they have good support, and also make sure they've been around for a while. We've seen a lot of fly by night hosting companies pop up with crazy wild offerings, and then next thing you know, they disappear and people are scrambling to, move their podcast from one platform to And and and this is not to say this is not to shit on any of the hosting providers. I think a a lot of them do have subtle differences that make or break why you
might wanna use them. But I think the marketing towards the general idea of podcast hosting providers is very much like, we host your RSS feed. Boom. And I think we need to know a little bit more in the 10,000 foot view. I think that's absolutely a a a fair thing to request of the, podcast hosting companies that are out there. But it's not just on them. Right? It's also on, like, what does well on Google. You know? Like, there's a reason that they do the marketing the way that they do the
marketing. Anyway Yeah. And and and you were saying about SEO. It's also a lot of just paid. Right? It's it's who's paying what, you know, who's winning what, auction to to be on the top of the listing over there for, podcast hosting companies. So so you start as a listener, you have the newsletter, you start doing podcast, and then you start getting heavily involved in the podcasting industry, joining the board of governors, partnering up with Podnews, you know, having worked for, one
of the podcast companies recently. I'm not sure if you're talking about that publicly or whatnot, but, so working with the script. And what you know, from that side of things, what have you seen in podcasting that you, I guess, I would say, you know, troubles you?
A few things trouble me. One in particular is that I don't think enough creators are paying attention to their audiences, whether they are still ideating on a podcast or they've had a podcast for a while and they don't know how to interact with their audience or that or how to take feedback from their audience. I think we we have an audience problem in general. I just went to a conference where it was mostly focused on craft,
and I found that the word audience was barely uttered. It it was really more like, I wanna make what I wanna make, and then the audience will come. And I just I think that that can be the case, But in in a lot in a lot of cases, we need to think first about who this is for. And, honestly, that might have a little bit of an implication on
what the content is about. It doesn't have to completely shift the content, but it might it might mean that instead of your show being 45 minutes, it's 35 minutes because you did a listener survey, and most people average out that they like to listen to shorter podcasts. Okay. How do you I mean, I guess that really begs another question, which is
how do you engage with your audience? So many podcasters publish episodes, post on social media, and they feel like they are speaking into the void or, you know, not being heard by anybody. So even if they wanna improve their show and get feedback, they don't feel like they can. What do you do to really encourage conversation with your audience? So there's definitely things you can do to encourage conversation. I'll
talk about that in a second. But if it feels like pulling teeth to get any bit of feedback, it's probably because you just don't have a lot of engaged listeners, and that stinks. But you you maybe you need another way in. Maybe you need to meet them where they are. Maybe if there are 5 people who are commenting on your your social posts, only 5 people, maybe you set up a phone call with those people and try to figure out what is common among them so that you might be able to find look
alike audiences and maybe nurture those people as well. I think just because you make a show does not entitle you to an audience. And just because you have an audience does not mean that they must, after every episode, tell you what they liked and didn't like about it. But I think one way to make it more likely for your listeners to be in touch with you is to tell them why you want them to be in touch with you. I think if I say at the end of each episode, like, leave me a review wherever
it is that you get your podcasts, I'm so bored by that. I've heard that by a 1000000 people. Why do I need a review? What's it gonna do for you, if if I leave you a review? And, ultimately, like, why me? Why now? So if you can explain, like, we want x number of reviews because it looks good when other potential listeners visit our podcast on Apple Podcasts. It's not about the
algorithm. It is about social proof. It's kind of like a Ariel was here moment where you can kind of, like, write on the bathroom stall and say somebody was here before this podcast is vetted, and it's enjoyed by others. So I think if you can just get really clear about why you want your listeners to do what you want them to do, they're gonna be more likely to do it. It's a it's a trust thing. I think that's a very fair way to put it. We're chatting with Ariel Nissenblad, founder of Earbuds
Podcast Collective. You could find it at earbuds.audio. Among that podcast newsletter, there's also a bunch of podcasts she produces and other things that you should really check out. Her stuff is fantastic. Her advice is great. She's often speaking and helping podcasters in a in a number of different ways. So, if you're not already, strongly encourage you to follow Ariel and see what
she's saying and doing and and how she's helping the podcasting space. Before we let you go, we have questions that we'd like to ask everybody and kinda worked on this first one already, but I'll I'll reask it anyway, see if you have something else. Is is there a place you'd like to see improvement in the podcasting space, whether it's from the listener side, creator side, distribution, you know, discoverability, anything like that? Yes. I would like to see
more I like audiograms. I like the concept of audiograms and and clipping videos for videograms, but I think I would like to see more honest marketing advice about what those will do for you. So just because you make an audiogram, just because you make a videogram does not mean that it's gonna get seen by thousands of people. Even if it does get seen by thousands of people, that does not mean that
it's gonna convert to listeners. And I think there are too many SEO optimized or SE optimized, whatever, blogs on the Internet that are claiming that if you do x, y, and z, you will finally get the 10,000 downloads per episode that you're looking for, and that is not the case. It it it's really an individual situation. So, I guess I wanna see less of this blanket advice and more digging down into your individual analytics, maybe speaking with somebody who can interpret those
for you and make some suggestions based on that. You know, I think along that same front, I agree. Like, audiograms, video clips, they do a great job of raising awareness, getting people to see it. But I would love to see a way to to make that connection from, oh, that's a podcast to, great. Now it's on my listening list, or now I've bookmarked it to listen
to it later. It it just seems like from social media, the steps to get from there to subscribe could be a few, and it'd be nice if you have that, you know, like the way you could follow someone on Twitter from a different website because you have that embedded button. Right? Just the ability to embed a follow this podcast and have it show up in your Apple Podcast or whatever app you're using would be a really nice ad to, to improve people's,
marketing efforts. What about, tech on your wish list? I see, like you said, you got the Shure m 7, good pair of headphones. But is there a piece of equipment whether it's something that's out there that you want or something that somebody needs to create that you're kind of jonesing for maybe, ahead of this holiday season put on your, wish list? I'm not big on the hardware end of things. What about software? I like software, but I'm pretty happy with the
software that I use. I guess, hardware wise, would I love to sound treat this room a little bit? Yeah. I would love some panels or some somebody to come by and be like, here's how we can optimize, your tiny little apartment to make sure that the sound is better. Software, I I love testing out all of them. We're on Riverside right now, but like you said, I worked for Descript, and I used SquadCast
and then Descript's rooms for years. And I love being able to test out all of them and see what's working and also being able to advise on you know, if something doesn't work, it's probably not a Riverside or a a Descript thing. It's probably just an Internet bandwidth situation thing. So I love I love being able to kinda stop those, moments of controversy in their tracks. People love to pit
software against each other, and I just don't think it's always that. Yeah. It's it's funny how we we have become very tribal in what software we use. Right? Even going back to the hosting companies. Right? People who love 1 hosting company, not only will they talk nicely about their hosting company, but they will absolutely try and destroy the
reputation of the other ones. And it feels like we're we're overly invested or or overly interested in the success of our hosting company as if we're stockholders or something like that. It's it's very strange, but, I'm the same way. Anytime new software comes wrong, I'm like, oh, let me see if I can do anything fine with that. And, you know, sometimes you can, and sometimes it's just, you know, more of the same package to in a slightly different way.
And then this is a totally loaded question for someone like you. It has podcast recommendations. But is there a favorite podcast you have right now, 1 or 2, where regardless of everything else you're doing, you're listening to a new episode of that show drops, you're stopping what you're doing, or you will never miss an episode of said show, when it comes along? Yes. I have been
listening to actually, I have a lot. But I'll say for at least 2 years now, I've been listening to every single episode of a show called Who Weekly, which is have you heard of it? I have none. It's great. It's it's interesting always to ask if you've heard of it or not because it's definitely made for, like, people who love pop culture and celebrity things, but, also, it goes much deeper, and it talks about who gets press coverage and why do they get press
coverage. And it's kind of this meta media analysis without that does not take itself seriously at all. And I just love the way they do this, but and it's huge. Like, they filled, an a 1000 person, event space in New York City, and they went on tour they go on tour, like, twice a year. They're they're big, and yet you've never heard of them. Isn't that amazing? It's, like, it's shocking to me, but it's also not shocking to me because there's no monoculture.
And I just think that this show is such a great community building show. They've done a great job giving their listeners names and finding interesting ways to nurture them and make sure that everybody understands their inside jokes and things like that. So I like that one. Nice. Yeah. I'll I'll never skip that. And then, of course, every day, I listen to a bunch of news podcasts, and some of them I feel more of a community
attachment to than others. Like, The Daily Zeitgeist I listen to twice a day every day, and I do feel a connection to it, whereas I listen to Today Explained every day, and I don't necessarily feel like I need to connect with other Today Explained listeners, even though I really love the hosts. I also listen to The Brian Loehr Show every day, which is a radio program that
they syndicate as a podcast. I think syndicate is the right word, and they break it up by segment, and I think that's just a cool way to consume radio. And then I listen to some non news podcast, but I won't get into those now. You just have to trust me. Okay. Well and, of course, if you're following Ariel on social media or watching what she does, she gives lots and lots of recommendations, and, it's it's not hard to see what she's into, what she's following, what she's talking about. So, get
out there and make sure you are are following everything that she's doing. We will make sure to have links to all the social media that we have here. We'll try and make a link to all of the different products that are available, the newsletters, the podcast. And just as a reminder, it's Ariel Nissenblatt, founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective. Find that at earbuds.audio. Ariel, it is always a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you so much for coming on today. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.