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When we talk about podcasting technology, we're always looking for something that's going to make your life easier, but we don't want it to just make your life easier and be cheap and sloppy and something that you're not gonna be very proud of. And when the concept of a PodPage first came along, there were a lot of folks who were concerned, like, yeah, an automatic podcast website, I don't know. Is that really gonna be worth it?
Is my site gonna look professional? Is it gonna be cool? Is it gonna work well? How easy is this kind of technology? And right away, I could tell the 1st time I ever put my eyes on a pod page, I knew there was some real there there. Right? You enter in your RSS feed, you tell it the name of your show, And within 5 minutes literally, within 5 minutes, I had helped folks create a functional, beautiful, You know, really powerful podcasting website. And that was several years ago, and it's only
gotten Much better, much stronger. And it's definitely something that if you are not savvy enough, if you don't wanna go down the wormhole of WordPress, if you, You know, don't know what you don't know when it comes to building the right podcasting website? Then you definitely want to check out a pod page. And today, we are super excited to have Brenden Mulligan, the PodPage founder, also just a serial entrepreneur with some other cool stuff that
he's done in his past. Brenden, thank you so much for joining us here today. Thank you for having me. It's good to talk to you again. So we we spoke about this, I think, many, many years ago when this first developed, but, You know, pretend that that episode never existed. Tell us, how did you get to creating and thinking of the idea of the PodPage service? So I have spent my career helping creators. I started in the music industry.
I moved into helping app developers And then, working with podcasters and digital artists and the theme throughout all of them has been the same, which is all of these creators, They do what they do because they have some talent, in that medium. And so podcasters, like, they're amazing because they Find people to
¶ Welcome Podpage's Brendon Mullingan
interview or they come up with great stories or great topics. They they create great content. And so in all of my time as an entrepreneur, I've and working with I've always tried to find the things that they're they shouldn't really be focusing on because it's just they should be focusing on their craft as opposed to sort of the maintenance of their business. And there's some areas that they need to be focused on strategy, but there's other
areas that they shouldn't. And in almost every one of the cases and groups, The building your own website has been one of these things that it should be
easier than it is. And so back in in my music industry days, after watching Myspace fall apart, what we all realized was These musicians have been focused too much on being on these platforms and not enough about owning their own piece of the Internet, and so we help them create websites, Really, really easily using the content they'd already put on the Internet, and when I
saw what podcasters are doing, I saw almost the exact same thing. I would search for really good Podcasts, and the Top hits on Google were Apple Podcasts. I think at the time of it have been Itunes. I can't remember. You know, Spotify. It's it was platforms, and a lot of them didn't have their own website and I started reaching out to podcasters asking why and they're like, it's a pain. I don't really wanna learn about WordPress. I tried. I paid a
designer, but it didn't work. Like, all of these excuses were basically, it's too hard. And so when I dug in a little bit more, I realized that the RSS feed, The same RSS feed that's that's read by Google and Spotify and Apple has all the content to basically be able to create a website instantaneously. I mean, We say 5 minutes to get to a website that you're like really happy with and you can just leave alone forever, but it takes like 10 or 15 seconds to actually generate the
thing. And so, It honestly started as a weekend project for a friend that had a pretty popular podcast, but didn't have a website. I was like, yeah. Let's let's just try it. So at the end of the weekend, I was like, here's a website I built for you. It's totally self supported, powers itself, it updates itself. It doesn't, you know it not only pulls in your episodes, but it pulls in reviews from Apple, so the content stays fresh, all the stuff. And so then we're like, alright, well, is it
worth it? So we threw it on a subdomain of his. And a week and a half later, it was the number one hit on Google, after changing his link and his RSS feed to that. And so it was like, oh, so basically with no effort, You're able to tap the number 1 spot on Google when someone searches your your podcast name. And at that point, it was like, Okay. This is clearly worth it for a podcaster to do. Now, like, can I make it easy and
accessible for them to do it? And so then That was when I started DM ing podcasters a link to a page that I built for them and I said, Hey, here's a website I built for you. Would you be interested in just giving me feedback on what you hate about And and it sort of start that's where it kinda came from. It was just talking to more and more podcasters and seeing their reaction and then seeing how openly they were to switch to it or
adopt it once they realized how easy it was. And yeah. I mean, one of the things that was so great about creating a pod page for the 1st time and then helping clients create a pod page was that simplicity of it. You know, something that comes up often when people are trying to build a website or, honestly, with any creative endeavor, are Choices. Too many choices. And what I loved about it was you put you like I said, you pop in your feed, you can have
a website in minutes or seconds even. But You have some, you know, design palettes, let's say. Right? Like basic templates that people can use. And You you have just enough where it's like you can find what you're looking for, but you don't have to feel overwhelmed by all those choices to the point where you can't move forward with it. And on top of that, it's so easy that once you maybe get tired with your one design, you're like, yeah, let's try
something else. You can go ahead and just, boom, click that. Now the whole website kinda changes, Keeps into account, right, some of the customization that you've made, but, right, you can update the look and feel without having to go through and reprogram your entire website once again. It is that whole flow and, and basically the, the theme of, I want it to be easy for people Without having to do a ton of work. I want it to look good without
being overwhelming. I want them to be able to change it without screwing things up That it is so hard. And I would say it's gotten harder over time as we've made the pages more complex, but a big part of Q1 for me, It's literally the biggest project that we've worked on for a while and what I'm working on right now is adding a ton of themes and functionality, as far as
cut design customization without making it more complicated. So if you were to log in to PodPage with my account, there's this crazy amount of new new stuff to change because I'm trying to figure out how to make it still feel accessible and easy, But we're about to roll out like a new we've haven't updated our templates for a while, but we're about to roll out a a a new set of templates that are in I mean, obviously, I'm biased, but They're
really, really nice. I honestly I mean, this is just on me. Like, I feel like we've fallen behind a little bit over the last couple of years because we haven't done a lot of template work. We've done a lot of, like, Adding the ability for people to tweak things on their website and make it look better, but as far as just a one click, like, I want my website to look like that, we haven't it hasn't been as, high on the priority list. So that's what the beginning of this year is, and so I'm
excited about it. And so I I appreciate what you said, but it's I'm I'm embarrassed by it. I think it could be way better, and hopefully, it will be in couple weeks. I mean, everything can always have room for improvement. But again, for for folks who can't build a website or don't wanna go through the whole rigmarole, it's nice to have Nice but, you know, simple choices to work with. Talking about some of the Tech stacks, talking about some of the features, you've added a lot since the very
beginning. What are some of the features you are most proud of with PodPage? Let's say one that you particularly like, Maybe the community is like, yeah. Whatever. And then what's that one of the communities like, oh my god. This is amazing. You're like, really? I don't even think that was gonna be that important to you. For me, things that I like, you know, it's funny when you build something that one of the pitches of it is it's automated. It takes care
of itself. It's a set it and forget it type product. If you want to tell people how powerful it is, but you don't want to confuse them by being like, We do all of these things and you don't even know it. Right. And so, so I love all the features that sort of happen in the background. And those features are things like, You know, the way that we actually,
this is just rolling out. We haven't even announced yet, but it is live. We're starting to pull in chapters, so if you put chapters in your RSS feed you'll start seeing them show up on your website if you want. We're gonna start For, for the elite plan, you can put in your, if you have a YouTube channel and you have a, You have a playlist that all you put all your podcast episodes on, we're gonna start actually trying to match your YouTube channel Podcast episodes
with the episode that we import. And so when we import the episode from your feed, it'll automatically put the video for that episode on the episode page. So when people come to your website to to look at the episode you they can actually just watch it as opposed to have to listen to it on the web. So It's all of that stuff is the part the stuff that really gets me excited because it's it makes things so easy. We're using a ton of AI tools to To do small
things, we're gonna start transcribing episodes. If you don't have them transcribed, so your your website has more text for Google to understand the context of the website or the the webpage. So I love all that stuff. A lot of times users don't even notice that's happening because it's just happening. The for the from a user standpoint, by far the best feature that we've launched since probably since The 1st year, has been sort of our guest workflow and, a lot of
podcasts have guests. We built basically a profile where they can a very simple thing where they could go in and they could just type like, here's a guest name, here's their bio, here's a headshot, here's their social links, and And then they could say they were on episode 54, and then when you look at episode 54, there'd be a little guest bio at the bottom. You click the name. It has a whole page on their website for the guest. That was
the feature. And so I thought it was kind of clever and nice, it seemed to fit the medium, and so I've released it and, The the initial feedback we got from our Facebook community was, this is amazing but God it's just another thing for me to have to fill out. Pod page is great because all this stuff is automated is there any way you can automate this? Now obviously we can't automate generating a guest profile, But their suggestion was can I just have my guest do the work for
me? And so we ended up building a a guest facing version of that profile builder Where now the podcast just sends a link to a guest. They fill out a form that form saves them in
the backend of their pod page. And then the the podcaster can go in and say, okay, like, Brenden was on Podcasting Tech, I'd already filled out the profile so that was, I could just click my name and say he was on he's gonna be on episode 54, and then when episode 54 is imported we can attach The Brenden episode Brenden's profile to the episode and also email the guest, Hey, the episodes released here are
links. That whole workflow has been like transformative for our users and totally not something that we thought we'd be doing when we set out to build the website service. But, But really is really it's really helpful for them because a lot of people wait to email their guests because they don't have the website link yet. And so, Anyway so that's that's been a big a big win for for our users. And I'm assuming that If, like, one of the questions is like, you know,
where can I find more information about you? Right? Let's say, you know, I'm using this form with you, and you'd say, obviously, podpage.com. Now aren't I automatically creating some link backs, which is really powerful for SEO in general? Yep. Yep. You you know, you can The person can can plug in their website, their podcast link, their, you know, Instagram account, whatever they want, And they they have they have control over what the pro the bio is, and so, and the profile looks like.
So, yeah, it's been a it's been a big hit for both. I mean, If anything, I think at this point, the scale that we're working at, I think one of the most inefficient parts of the whole thing is that a guest Isn't creating, like, a pod page profile that then they could send a lot of Podcasting.
They're creating a profile for each podcast, and we've gotten some feedback now. They're, like, I feel like I'm filling out A pod page profile form for so many shows that I'm on so often, it'd be nice if you could just I could just kinda, like, give permission for the new ones to access it. So good problems to have, but, but it's, you know, it's been helpful on both sides. Maybe, we'll chat with you in a year, and you'll say, yep. We figured it out. We got it filled, and here it
is, folks. You'll, you'll you'll have your own guest profile on PodPage. Yeah. I also love that you have your own guest release built into it. So that's great. So you can basically turn on that. There's a a show guest release form, with, you know, copy courtesy of Passy Legal for Podcasting. Obviously, you can upload your own. But, like, Again, just 1 more place that podcasters may not be thinking about what it is that they need and you're already
providing Like, hey. Here's a heads up on something that you need. And by the way, we've already done the work for you, to make that super easy. What are some other Future features, or what are some other places where PodPage is looking to go in the future if you can share any of that with us? Well, I think, you know, at the beginning of 2024, if you're talking about the future, you can't can't talk about the future without thinking about AI. I think there's
a lot of stuff that we can do to be helpful there. There's, you know, SEO is a hard thing for most people, including myself. And knowing not only like, you know, PodPage does all the work to structure your page to make it as attractive to Google as possible. And, you know, when you put a transcript Not only do we post on your page, but we tag it in the HTML. So when Google looks at it they know this is a transcript, and so when they're trying to structure that data on Google search
results They don't have to figure out where the transcript is, we tell them. So there's a lot of spoon feeding we do to Google, but you still have to have the right content on there. And so, We're trying to help podcasters make sure that they are doing, as well as possible with the content they wanna do. So we've last year, we added a bunch
of sort of advanced, SEO tools. If you've ever used WordPress and Yoast SEO, We basically took a lot of inspiration from that and now make it easy to say, okay, I just released an episode, and we say what's the focus key phrase that you want to be coming up on Google for, and then we'll analyze the the the episode and the page to tell you whether or not you've set it up for success, because there's only so much PodPage
can do. And this has been really helpful because a lot of people would come to me and say, hey, I was hoping to rank for, you know, business podcast, and then We help them realize, like, not only is that gonna be incredibly competitive, but your your site actually is more about, like, small business, small businesses in Akron, Ohio or something. Right? And it's like then they once they start targeting their key phrase towards that, they have a lot more success ranking for
those kind of things on Google. So we added sort of the the analysis tools, but I think we're still there's still an opportunity to help not only, with the analysis, but also with just helping people understand. Like, we can look at a podcast, and we do this for elite users if they wanna we can look at their episode when you say, like, the key phrase you're probably should be targeting is this, you know, and it may be the guest
name, or it might be, you know, something in the in the topic. But we look at the show notes, we look at the summary, we look at the title, like, You know, our guess is that this is what you're gonna wanna rank for because this is seems to be what it's all about. So using tools like that, A little thing we're gonna release, which is just, inspired
by Amazon. I don't know if you've seen the Amazon AI tools for their reviews, but instead of reading the 5,000 reviews, you can just now at the top it says, People like this because and it sort of summarizes everyone's review. We've that that's actually already built. We just haven't turned it on yet. Search a bet, a much better search using AI. Like there's a lot of that kind of stuff that we just want it to be the page to be a
lot smarter. Again, our It's sort of like our goal is just to continually make it less and less of something you think about. Right? Like, it's just doing what it needs to do, and it's just working and helping you. Some people like writing blog posts alongside their, alongside their episodes, and there's a strategy for that, and we can help Use AI to help inform the strategy around writing a blog post that that helps promote the episode versus competes with it, stuff like that. So,
We're doing a lot more high touch SEO stuff this year. We did a a big SEO seminar yesterday. We're gonna be doing one of those monthly. We're gonna have SEO, consulting and, like, high touch SEO, 1 on 1 consulting for people who want it, you know, so there's just we wanna do a lot more. Now that we spent so many years making these amazing websites, now we wanna make sure that they've they're all found for the people who wanna put in the work to do it.
Amazing. And some of those new AI features that you're talking about, those are only gonna be for, elite plans, or is that also gonna be in the pro? It'll there it'll depend on the feature. Okay. I I need to look at it, but and it it might start with elite, and go to pro in the same way a lot of stuff
with pro, went to basic. You know, Elite gives us an opportunity to beta test it with people who are a little bit more invested in their in the website because they're paying more and they want more high you know, advanced features, and so it lets us kind of give it to them. They can they can use it, and we can get it right, and then a lot of stuff
can move down into pro or parts of it can move down into pro. Things like like AI transcriptions, You know, a lot of people transcribe their audio with their host or someone else, but if it gets to us and it's not transcribed, we wanna transcribe it for you because there's so much we can do once we have a transcription. Transcriptions are actually really expensive, and so that's one of those things, like, the cost is high enough where we wanna make sure that we can afford to do it for everyone.
So that will be something that would be an elite. But some of the smaller AI stuff will will be in pro. Well, one of the things you mentioned was that, you know, So often, you get people who you want this product to be something that they don't have to think about. And I'll be honest, when I was using this for, one of my shows, I never thought about it. Like, I honestly I I can't even remember how rarely I would visit the website
for my show just because I knew it was already taken care of. Everything was automatic. The episodes are being pulled in. It was always working. Right? I never had to go in and, like, purge cash on my on my WordPress site, make sure all my plug ins are updated, make sure the most compatibility issues, you know, were were working. It just always worked, and it was just one less thing
as a podcaster that I had to think about. So For anybody listening, if you haven't, put together a website for your podcast, if you're thinking about how am I gonna display my content, cannot cannot stress enough how Great. A pod page would will be, obviously, podpage.com. There'll be a link to it here in the show notes below. Brenden, before we let you go, we just wanna ask you a other questions about podcasting
in general, just to see kinda where you're at in the world. So one of the first things we wanna know from everybody is, is there a favorite Podcast that you are listening to right now or, maybe 1 or 2 that you would recommend, to folks? You know, it's so funny because I spend so much of my day writing code. I I used to be able to listen to podcasts and work and now that I just I don't I can't do that anymore, and I work from home, so there's
no commute. So I feel like the number of podcasts I listen to has gone down a lot. The. I'm really enjoying, there's one that's a friend of mine, named Chris Hutchins. He has a podcast called All the Hacks, And he's also, like, one of my beta Tech or, like, he's the he's one of my pod page users that Tech me and says, hey, can you add this crazy feature? I'm, like, no no one is gonna want that. A week later, I'm like, no. I'll build it anyway, because it kinda sounds
fun. And so he's he's it's great. It's a great podcast. I try to try to listen to as many episodes as I can, And it's all about optimizing your life, and he takes the approach of, like, oh, if you're interested in optimizing how you do travel, credit cards, or maybe it's money, or maybe it's preschools or maybe it's your cell phone plan, like, it it he finds people who have gone deep on everything and then interviews them. So I that
I love. I've always loved, like, Tim Paris and Joe Rogan's shows. They're just so long, so I I usually catch clips of those, and then, I've been I've been really enjoying the All In podcast, which I know
has been getting a lot more popular. It's I come from the tech world and it's a bunch of tech world people, but I feel like it's a really it's an it's a refreshing Podcast to listen to because I feel like it's people who generally have differing opinions, having conversations about their differing opinions, and They're fairly well informed people, and it's just like I feel like it's the exact opposite of what you get
when you read, you know, mainstream media. You get where you're getting such a one-sided approach to things, like it's actually a conversation. And so they'll have on, you know, they've had on Tucker Carlson or Jared Kushner, but they've also had on RFK Jr. Or, you know, people on, like, the far liberal side. And so I feel like it's a nice balance
of, like, oh, is this just, like, informative and interesting. So I feel like I'm being drawn more to that content now, where before I think I was more drawn to, like, Startup content. So I was listening to My First 1,000,000, and, more like businessy side stuff. I've sort of gotten to the point where, like, alright. I've I've listened to that for long enough. Now I'm sort of interested in other stuff. Is there gonna be a PodPage
podcast anytime soon? You know, I try to stay in my lane, And do and do what I'm good at, and I've I've tried a few times to think, like, oh, could I do a podcast around podcast websites, or could I do And I feel like there's a lot of great podcast content out there about podcast tech, about how to podcast and all that, and It's just not necessarily I think an area that I'm great, so I'm gonna leave that to people who
are. I think doing a podcast is so hard. I mean, it's so much work, And I've such respect for all the people out there doing it that I think that I would rather spend all my time trying to make PodPage better and not Not trying to do a podcast. So I'm always making myself available to podcasts, but I haven't I don't think I wanna do my own. I I think, you know, honestly, I think I think I sit down and I think, Do I have 52 pieces of content a year to share with the
world? And I just don't think I do, at this point. So Or if I do, it would be a lot of work to fig to organize that and figure it out. So it's just not where I wanna focus. Alright. Outside of Podcasting websites, because obviously, that's your lane and and, you know, you're working on that solution anyway. Is there another place in podcasting in general that you can Do you would like to see improvement or see something change? I think that the openness of podcasting is such a
core central part of it that is so incredibly important. And it's hard to watch Spotify. I feel like they actually innovate pretty well. Like, I think their podcasting listening experience is really good. I I use it The majority of the time, I like that it's cross platform, but I hate that it's this walled garden. So I would love to see The consumption experience diversified a little
bit, although it's just really hard to see that happening. But, but, you know, we we face a lot of issues with Our users where they write in, they're saying like, oh, this isn't working, or this isn't showing up here, and it's because they're on Spotify for Podcasters and they've, like, by default Gated their content to just a few places or so I would I would love to see more innovation across the board on the consumption experience, but I'd, Like I said, I don't I don't know
if that's gonna happen. I do think that this video is gonna be a bigger component to it, and so we'll see what you or what YouTube does this year, when they do their full launch and stuff, but, I think that I think Tech consumption experience is still more to be desired. I think on the podcasting sort of like the Inside Baseball tool side, I think the hosts are
all doing a really great job. I think the podcasting 2 point o tags and And all the stuff that could be in the podcasting feed, it'll be great when that's all supported because it makes people like me, like, makes my job so easy when there's already a transcript, when there's already chapters when there's already guest names. Like, my life would be way easier if all the content that we, that was already being published other places was
just stuck into the feed. And so what the podcast 2.0 initiative is doing, I think is awesome. And hopefully those tags are adopted by more people and the feeds have more than a minute because I think it'll just make all the places you can go to learn about podcasting way better. Like, I wish there was a video link in the feed. So when I get an episode, I already know what the YouTube link is, and I can I can put that on the website? So I think it's all coming, but, I'm I'm excited
for that to develop. And then I think there's there's sort of this mad rush not just in podcasting, but in tech in general for, like, a 1000000 people doing AI tools, and we've sort of held back. I mean, like, well, everyone's Everyone's innovating on AI right now, but I feel like at the end of this year, a lot of that will shake out, and there'll be probably a few really, really good people. I honestly think the hosts are gonna win there, Because a lot of the AI tools are best used pre
feed. I think of, like, podcasting workflow is like pre feed and post feed. Pre feed is like, need to write your show notes. You need to come up with a title. You need to come up with all this stuff. You need to do all that before you put it in your podcast host and before it goes in the feed. So I don't like to mess with any of that on the PodPage
side. The post feed stuff is I think where we live, which is, like, cool, you've you put it in your feed, now we can put it on your website, now we can help you Put it on Twitter and X and, Facebook and everywhere else. Now we can help, you know, get it into Google SEO, all all that, you know, email it to your guests, Potentially email to users. All that marketing stuff is, like, post feed. I think there's a
lot of cool stuff that we'll see in the pre feed side. Okay. And then, of course, the last question is, what technology are you using for podcasting? I know, like I said, you don't host your own podcast, but you do appear on on many. So What's the equipment there in your tech
stack? You know, it depends on the day. Today I'm using the, just like a basic ATR 2100 microphone that I think I got 4 years ago because someone said this is a good bit, maybe Tim Ferris recommended it, And I was, like, here's a good basic mic, and I've used that, with the same stand I think it came with. Like, it there's not there's not a lot of tech here, and then I've got an AirPod in. Still a great microphone, that ATR
2100. That that's I've been recommending that for years, and, yeah, I would still recommend it today. Yeah. It's great. It did sit on my shelf for years Because I think I did I was on someone, maybe it was with Dave Jackson, and he they said that the AirPods sounded better Then the mic. So I was doing AirPods for a while and then for a
while it was just, just like my computer mic. I think that all of the post-processing, like echo cancellation, audio cleanup tools have gotten so good that, that I think 4 years ago podcasters were very specific about, like, please use specific microphones, you know, come on for pre Pre interview sound checks all and I feel like over the last year or so that's kinda gone away, at least in my experience, where it seems like The, these tools are able to make great
audio using kind of whatever the input is to a point. Yeah. That, you know, when you think about that, that's a really good point that now there are so many great AI enhancement tools and plugins and software that even Not great audio could be made to sound decent, and decent audio could be made to sound highly impressive. So really sticking to
something as simple as a 2100. Just that just something that brings a mic closer to your mouth as opposed to, you know, the built in microphone on your computer or even I find sometimes with AirPods, the the microphone being behind your mouth, you know, there's a lot of room that has to be absorbed before I can hear your voice. So, but, yeah, I I like the I like your point that you don't have to get too crazy these days because the technology is there to improve
Whatever your sound is, you know, it's take it up a few notches. I I also think that maybe it could have been COVID when, I mean, everyone got into podcasting or People couldn't go to their studios or people just sort of had to make do with whatever they had. And, and I feel like that kind of It was a good shock to the system where it was like, you don't need to, before you're at 1st episode, you don't need to spend 1,000 of dollars on gear. You can just.
Throw some AirPods in because ultimately what's important. What's really important. Long term is that you are care about this topic enough or care about this podcast enough to keep doing it every week. It doesn't actually matter what you sound
like. Eventually you want to make sure you sound good, but you're way better off, like using your mental cycles to Love the craft and get into the craft and make it a habit than you are to like build the perfect podcast studio, or at least that's been my perspective and observation. You know what? I don't think I could have said it better myself. That is the exact kind of advice that we would give everyone which is You've never heard a person say, you know, that podcast
meant nothing to me, but, man, it sounded good, so I kept listening. Whereas Yeah. People will come to a podcast with solid content even if the quality isn't as pristine as they would like. So focus on good content. Focus on your audience. Focus on delivering value. And everything else, you can fix in post or, frankly, you can improve Later as you find, more success with what it is that you are doing. Well, we've been chatting with Brenden Mulligan, the founder of PodPage.
And, you know, without Exaggerating truly the best
¶ Thanks for Listening
way for a podcaster to build, launch, and not have to maintain a website because It does all the work for you. And on top of that, it just comes with amazing other features that are beneficial to podcasters that You would be spending more money on, you know, signing up for this, signing up for this, signing up for this.
¶ Welcome Podpage's Brendon Mullingan
And,
¶ Thanks for Listening
Brenden and the team at PodPage just bring it all together in one easy place. So Cannot recommend it enough. We have a link to pod page here in the show notes. But if you're thinking about a website or if you're tired of the struggles of your website, can't stress enough that you should definitely go check it out. Brenden Mulligan, thank you so much for joining us here today.