Let's talk about our favorite topic here, and that is growing your podcast. But we're gonna look at it from a very different angle than we have before on the show. To do that, we are chatting with Lej. He is the cofounder and revenue lead at Listen Network. You can find out more about them at listennetwork.co. Ledge, thank you for being here today. Matthew, it's good to be here. I enjoy your content, so I I am absolutely thrilled to be in the club. I appreciate that, and your check is in the
mail for that comment. So you are you have a very interesting background. You've you've actually had a ton of success already in podcasting even before, you know, this Listen Network venture. Tell me a little bit about how you, you know, fell into podcasting and how you got from starting there to where you are today. Yeah. I am a sales guy, entrepreneur, sort of polyglot. And, you know, I the interesting thing is that when you start companies, and this is, you know,
twenty years ago, I started getting into it. And everybody wants to be a, you know, practitioner, but nobody wanted to do anything and sell. So I, said, well, I guess I should learn how to sell things. And I started doing that, and I became good at the sales side and actually enjoyed it. So, at one particular adventure, I was trying to sell something that was essentially 10 times as much as people were buying it for, you know, at that point, and it was a premium product or service.
And I said, no one's gonna take my outbound. They're not going to want to in any way engage with me. But what if I just say, hey. You wanna be on my podcast? I I talk to experts like you. And so, you know, other people were were doing that at the time. I didn't know what that was. I thought I was unique and and special. It was about 02/2017. So I cannot say in any way that I pioneered ABM podcasting, but I can say that I, came to that realization at the same time maybe
as others. And I I ended up it worked, and we ended up doing millions of dollars of revenue with just the guests and kept running that playbook, you know, ever ever since. And then I got into selling actual podcast agency services for particularly in b two b. And from that adventure, I became fascinated with this problem where, you know, shows would start and people would wanna test them, or let's see if this works. Or how do you know if a podcast works? And this is like a very
nuanced thing. And they would come back ultimately after, you know, their q one or q two budget meeting, and they would say, yeah. My boss canceled it because they don't see the ROI. I'm like, well, that's interesting and weird, and I wanna solve that problem because, turns out, you know, we as a agency, you know, industry,
I guess, we're we tell clients a lot, like, oh, hey. You know, downloads don't matter, and let's go and you know, it's all about the audience and making sure you're telling the story, and let's do, you know, episode
retention, and let's do, you know, consumption rate. And then, like, I agree with all those things, except I know this in sales, and I I hope that other people can learn this, that if you go into a budget meeting and try to train people in, like, the five minutes that you get to speak your special, nichey language and then give you money, it's
never gonna work. So maybe downloads don't matter, you know, in the grand picture, but you damn well better be able to tell the story of how that number went up and exactly who those people are. That's what gets you funding and runway so that your show doesn't get canceled, you don't get fired, and your agency doesn't lose a client. It's always nice for an agency to retain
their clients. I wanna go back real quickly to this idea of, account based marketing or the idea where, you know, instead of trying to cold call people, you were inviting them on your podcast to build leads. This was something that I've I've talked about famously on the show, and many times I've had plenty of clients who started podcast with that exact intention, that that audience of one, the, you know, opening up warm relationships with people through podcast interactions.
And I still it it is for businesses, especially, probably one of the most successful returns on investment for a podcast even more so than advertising because, you know, when you grow your network, you grow your your opportunity set. Is Is that still something that you would advocate for for podcast today? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Particularly, so certain times types of businesses. Right? You
know, I think for service providers, that's fantastic. Like, if it if this is about I need to be liked and trusted, then that that format is great. Now you could argue that that's true for any, you know, large brand or anything like that. But, my typical cutoff point was when, like, if people would say, oh, it's all about brand awareness or it would be you know, it's like we wanna develop thought leadership content and blah
blah blah. You know, the usual things that that people would say. Like, if you're not doing over a billion dollars in revenue, I suggest you go with this other strategy where it's just like, look, I agree we should do all those things, but thought leadership accrues from the people who are willing to talk to you and sit down. So why don't we start there and make a list of the top hundred companies that your sales team wants to do business
with and take it like an ABM strategy? And let's get you talking to those people and then promote them. So, I mean, for the rest of time, I could post on LinkedIn about how smart Matthew is and post clips of you. And, eventually, you wanna do business and you know, in the area, and you remember that I exist, and this would happen years later. If you had a long sales cycle, it was the greatest way to get out of not having to send those quarterly.
Hey, man. You know, what's going on? Just checking in. Wondered if you wanted to talk about this thing we do. Like, it's so but what if I could just go and, you know, just sort of regularly give you a touch point and it was all about you? So there was a a value reciprocity, you know, to that, and and it worked, you know, over and over and over again. I would absolutely recommend that people do this. You just need to be in this channel. It's
like, do a podcast, like, period. Like, just like you have a blog. Like, you must do this. Well and truth is it doesn't always have to be just a podcast. Right? It's just content. Right? It could just be on YouTube. It could just be, you know, a live x, you know, stream or something like that. But, right, the idea is get out there, make relationships, connect with people, chat with people,
repurpose all that material. Right? Keep talking about keep getting your name on their radar so that they are gonna remember you and think about you. And when, you know, they're ready for that business, they're gonna think, oh, let me go check out my buddy ledge and see what I remember that guy and he, oh, he says smart things about me and, you know, we share stuff and yeah. And then you gotta, you know, work the work
the DMs, like, actually chat with people. Like, I just it's gotten to the point now on on LinkedIn in particular where you have to reach out and go, I promise I'm not gonna pitch you. I actually just wanna be interested and talk to you. So Hart, I I wish I was getting more of those DMs on LinkedIn than the ones I am currently getting, which are usually, hey. I see you're a business owner. Time to look at your four zero one k. Right. Right. Yeah. Or, I mean, you
know, if you're in podcast growth, I mean, forget about it. Like, how many times does somebody slide into your DMs? Like, I am a podcast growth specialist. I'll run you up the chart. And I'm just like, I'm not that guy, you know. But, potentially, I could help you, but I also just think you're interesting and I wanna chat. So Yeah. By the way, when that person slides into your DMs, red flag right away. Block, ignore, and and move. Right. I know. And that happens to me where I'm like, no. No. No.
No. Really. Like, I actually know about this, and and and I'm not gonna sell that thing to you. You know? So So let's let's talk about that. So now you're, you know, founding partner here at Listen Network. And so you guys are doing, like, targeting, and extreme audience intelligence. How does Listen Network help podcasters? What is sort of, like, you know, call it the the, you know, cheesy elevator pitch, you know, story
here? Absolutely. So the thesis the thesis statement that I am using is like, look, you need runway. Someone needs to pay for this show. This is either a very expensive hobby out of your pocket, there's an underwriter or a sponsor, or there's a company that's paying for it. And when you want somebody's money, you speak the language of that
person to get that money. So if you're pitching this thing and someone needs to give you money, I guarantee you, whether we like it or not in the industry, they are gonna say, how many downloads do you have? And then they're gonna say, well, okay, who are those downloads? Because even if you have a large number, you could just buy a bunch of downloads, just like you used to buy Twitter followers. I did this years ago and it was like, I still have 6,000 Twitter followers.
I haven't logged into the thing in like two years. So whoever these people are, they're not real. And you could do that with downloads too. You can fake it. But what if you didn't fake it? And you were able to use the power of paid media to get in front of exactly the target audience that you want to be aware of your show, and we can link that directly to downloads. Like that's that's what Listen Network does. So super niche y stuff. I
don't know. It's like we had one client who's like, we do digital twinning software for manufacturing entities that are in the engineering space of aerospace companies. So I only want downloads and I only wanna pay to get downloads from mid level engineering job titles at aerospace companies. You can't do that in a normal context, but we built the thing where you can do that. So now we can say, I only want HR professionals who work in hiring and talent management at SaaS companies that are in
the retail space. Like, we can do stuff like that, and we can say, you got 500 downloads on that episode from exactly that audience. We know it. Oh, and by the way, you got 20,000 impressions right in front of your target audience to get there, And here's a report that shows it. Yeah. I mean, beyond just the downloads, that brand recognition. Right? Just having that podcast artwork or, you know, the host face in front of people, is also super powerful,
for many, many reasons. I I love the way you were describing that that, you know, niche. It almost sounds like that line in Spaceballs. Right? Like, you know, four I'm surrounded by asshole. Cousins, roommate. Right. Right. Whatever the line is, which makes us what? Absolutely nothing. So part of your your thinking and part of your strategy is that you really think of podcast more like a startup than as a content venture. Where did that thought process come from, and how do other podcasters
approach things that way? Like, what what do they have to do differently from what you commonly see from your past clients and from people coming over to Listen Network? Yeah. I think that, I like to say, you know, I think a startup is or rather, a podcast is a media startup dressed up as content. And it has a product side,
and it has a promotion side. And if we were to start a business at any point, if you ever been an entrepreneur, you know, sought funding, done a thing, whatever, like it would be ludicrous to go out and say, let's spend all our money and all our time and energy building a product, and then let's not tell anyone about it. Right? Or let's just post on social and magic things will happen. Like, that doesn't happen. Yet we do this in podcasting all the time. We're all like, oh, it's a places
too. Yeah. Right. Right. And it's wrong for any business. But, you know, we do owned media. Yay. We have a we have a podcast. That's the same thing as going, yay. We have a business. Okay. We didn't tell anybody about it. Oh, let's post on social. That's shared. Fine. Awesome. Well, it's cool. Maybe we'll get PR. That's earned. Well, okay. You mispaid, and we should drive traffic from day one to that thing who's exactly your target
market ICP. If you don't do that, you're just relying on the long tail organic that you probably don't have the infrastructure to build because you're gonna post on LinkedIn. It's like, yay. I got seven impressions. Like like, this isn't a thing. And why do we teach people that that's okay? That that's a hobby that you're gonna make nothing on, and you will never show ROI except, like, two years later?
When are you gonna go into a meeting with somebody and go, like, yeah. I need you to pay for this thing that's gonna get, like, near zero impact on my pipeline or in any way benefit my business. But I'd like your money because in two years, it'll work. I mean, it's just like, that's not gonna work in a place where people can spend their money on other things that work faster. Yeah. And that are that are easier to track and and have Yeah. Right. Like this is a performance
marketing world. Like budgets get spent on like results. Now whether we can quibble all day long, like downloads, same as impressions. Fine. I get it. Like, that doesn't actually mean anything, but people who spend money think it does. So So if I'm a podcaster, right, again, this isn't for every podcast out there. Right? You're not you know, if you're the like, I think I said in an episode recently. Right?
If you and your buddy are in your garage talking about Star Wars and sports and and whatever, probably not gonna help you find your audience. But, you know, let's say you are a business. You are a brand. You are a thought leader. Right? You are someone who's trying to engage a b to b, model. You know? What is that like then to come and work with Listen Network? Sure. What I would say, you can target any audience. The question is, is that cost effective? Like, if you want a bunch of
Star Wars nerds, fine. I don't know how they're ever gonna spend money for you, but you do get that vanity metric. Like, I can target anything you want. Right? So our objective was to say, well, the weird thing is that, know, sort of downloads happen, you don't know who they are. Why? Because podcasts are RSS and there's no data payload and Spotify and Apple just wanna hold all your data hostage because they don't want you to get out of the wall of garden. So you're screwed. You
can't show anything. I mean, there's a little bit, but, you know, it's like rough demographics from part of your audience, whatever it is. But what if who does have all the information? Podcast or rather ad networks have all the information. They know everything about everybody. What was missing was a piece to say that download came from that ad. And so we built the connective tissue on that, that middleware
that we can track both sides of that. So now we can say that download came from that ad, and here's the person who clicked on that ad and all their demographics. Not one to one attribution. That's creepy. Nobody does that. But you can say very detailed things about them in a b two b context. Obviously, that's really valuable because you can say it's exactly my target market and
I know who they are. In a regular market or b two c, you might say, well, I want women, you know, age 45 to 60, and they're interested in wellness products or, you know, things you can do stuff like that too, intent based, content based. But, anyway, when someone comes to us, they would just say, essentially, like, here's my podcast, and here are the episodes that I would like to grow and promote in front of someone. It could
be all. It could be one. And then we help them build an ad plan around exactly the target market, and then we report to it after. And we say, you know, here's a report branded as you. You can show it to sponsors. You can use it in your pitch kit. You could use it in your budget meeting, whatever it is. But this is exactly what happened, and you're gonna see a massive spike on that episode. So it really is about individual episodes, right, pushing that in
front of the correct audience. We've talked to a couple of different folks who offer similar services. And when you really get down to the the fine details of it, you know, one of the things that comes up is that I see a spike when I run the promotion, but then this doesn't become a sustainable audience. Is that something that you see, or is that not something necessarily that you're thinking about? Or or how did you guys differentiate yourselves from some of these more fly by night
promotion sites that, you know, seem to be able to say, yeah. We'll grow a show, but it doesn't really do anything. It doesn't actually convert or become ROI. Right. Right. And that is the definition of ROI sort of I made a sale. And and I, you know, I completely agree with that. And that's that's the argument of, like, well, what about retention? And the reality of paid media in any context is when I run a paid media campaign, I get some action. When I stop doing it, I stop getting some action.
Some of those will retain because they're interested. Is your content good? Do people actually want to consume this thing again? Where we can work on retention is if you run multiple episodes, we can retarget those people. Hey. They downloaded episode one. Let's retarget episode two to them. That's a retention mechanism. We also try to drive as many clicks as we can through a pop up mechanism after the download to Apple, Spotify. Like, maybe those people follow. Unfortunately, those
platforms won't let attribution tracking happen. Right? So all I can tell you is a click went to that thing because of us. I don't know what they did, you know, after that. And I think a lot of providers, you know, kind of in our space or maybe not just transparent, they're like, that's not how it works and no one can do that. They're gonna try to argue to you. Like we're trying to be the most white hat sort of provider. Like, these are the limitations of the world that we
live in. And, yeah, we're gonna try to do whatever we can to drive retention. I would argue that retention on a show is based on the quality of content, is based on being in front of people over and over and over again. Like, you you have to at least try to do that thing. What's the retention on posting a bunch of stuff on social? Like, nobody knows nobody knows the answer to this. They just wanna argue against why you shouldn't do paid. So,
like, you know, it's like, cool. Like, don't do it. Fine. From the agency perspective, agencies can make more money doing promotion than production. The cost of production is going to zero. Like, there is no margin there. It will die. If your entire business is based on just selling marked up production, you are in a race to the bottom. If you add in this, you are now offering a full service thing and you make more money and you retain clients. We ran this internally at our own
agency until we spun it out. 40% better retention. Wow. So so you are not only engaged with individual podcasts, but you are engaged with production houses, agencies, right, folks who manage many podcasts to help them. So so with that in mind then, right, listen, we are not necessarily attracting the big boys of podcasting. Right? I doubt that, you know, someone from a
huge network is sitting here listening and thinking, oh, maybe I should do that. So is your platform approachable for smaller podcasts, or is there, like, a minimum investment that they have to have in order for this to work? For a smaller podcast, you you could do it. The minimum for us is, like, 250 downloads an episode. Like, they just won't run. You can't run a campaign that runs so
small that it it won't, you know, to do that. So that's that's still gonna put you in like another grand a month, let's say. Right? Like it's not a minimum because we wanna take more of your money. It's just a minimum because it it just doesn't work. Like they won't fire, you know? So you can't you can't run an ad campaign
small enough to make that happen. And I would also argue like in most cases, why are you trying to buy downloads in that context unless you have a monetizing entity on the other side? Where I do see this work is say, I'm a niche podcaster. I've got 500,000, 10 thousand downloads a month. Under that network threshold, but I'd like to pitch something to a sponsor because I have a dedicated audience niche.
Well, now I can say to the sponsor, hey. Part of your sponsor packages, I guarantee you at least a thousand downloads per episode are going to come exactly from your target market, and I'll give you this report after the fact. That works. But don't go buying downloads thinking eventually I'm gonna be in a network because that's silly. You'd have to keep spending money. The arbitrage doesn't work. You can't buy your way into CPM
advertising. You're gonna get crushed. Well, and and not only that, the platforms are getting smarter and Sure. You know, they can recognize fake data from And and then they should. It's not in in essence, it's not fake, but it came from this channel. I mean, you can do fake. I could show you how to do fake. We have all the same vendors as everybody else. But what we're trying to do is be transparent of like, you could do that thing and it won't get
you to the business result that you want. So if you wanna run up the chart, we could sell you that and it's worth nothing. So if you maybe get value out of taking a screenshot of being up the chart for three days and then crash, like I, like, I don't know what business that suits, but, you know, vanity is a thing. I'll I'll sell you things to make you feel better.
I wanna sell you things that make your business actually grow. Well, and you also wanna sell things that get you to tell other businesses that this is a product that worked, that was effective, that, you know, accomplished what they said they
were gonna set out to accomplish, and and I saw the return. So as somebody who is offering the service and as somebody who's ran agency and sold, you know, and helped lots and lots of podcasters, What is the biggest thing that, you know, somebody comes to you wanting to do this, you take a look at your their show and you go, I I wanna help you, but this is off and, you know, let's fix this and then we'll run the campaign. Like, what's that thing that you find most people are messing
up? It's brand polish in that case. You know, if it's too small, like, it's just like and then a lot of times that'd be creators to say, oh, I wanna grow my show because I want to, you know, appeal to sponsors. And and again, it goes to, like, treat it like a business. Right? Like, what like, I get it. You might actually have really great things to say, but no one gets to your show. And when they go to your site, it's like a really bad video and, like, a brand that looks like
it was on Myspace in, like, 1995. And I'm just like, clean that up. Right? Like, it's put your Zoom shirt on and, you know, look decent. Right? So, you know, who's the audience. Right? Like, again, if you're like, hey, we're the top like fanzine podcast for like Star Trek nerds or whatever. Like, that's amazing. Like, be all be that. Like but if you're saying I want sponsors, I want brands to pay money to be repped by you, well, then
think about that presentation. Right? So, like, there's not we can't help you grow a show that in essence, like, doesn't look like it wants to be grown or doesn't care. Like, why are you doing this? It always comes back to the why. Like, why do you have this thing? Do you have it because it's fun and you like talking to people? Hell, yeah. No one's ever gonna pay you and it's gonna come out of your pocket, but go have fun. Skiing's expensive. People like to do that
for fun. But this like, is it a business or is it not? And that's the first question that I would ask. I don't wanna sell people things that are just like a pipe dream. Like, that's insane. You know? So I'll be the first one to get on the call and be like, this is not for you. And, you know, if you're serious about being in the other club, there are a million coaches and consultants. I'll
introduce you to one. That's not my jam. Once you're ready to make some revenue and you wanna think about how to actually have a business motion behind this, cool. We might be able to help you. Love it. And and, really, I love the you know, the thing you said earlier on was why. And, right, that's something that we just stress all the time. If you don't know why you're doing this, and more importantly, you don't know why your audience should care, You've
probably lost the battle before it even started. Yeah. Like, that's that's absolutely right. Like, there should be a reason that you spend hours and hours and hours in front of a microphone and trying to get people to talk to you and editing and posting on social or whatever things you're doing. Like, why are you doing that? And what do you expect to happen at the end? And you see this a lot in, like, entrepreneurship. Right? Like, people start businesses with, like, no
point except I think it's a cool idea. Like, alright. Like, again, that's hobby. But do it because you think it's fun. I don't care. Build your little thing and build a an app. Build a website. Just, like, do what you like and have an audience of one and and be stoked with that. But when you're asking people for money, like, have a reason. Love that. Once again, we are chatting with Ledge. If you're looking for him on LinkedIn, David Ledgerwood is the full name, but he is the,
cofounder and revenue lead at Listen Network. Again, you can learn more about them at listennetwork.co. Ledge, of course, as someone who listens, you know, we're not gonna let you go without asking you our great three questions about podcasting. So, I'm sure we could do a full episode on this first one, but, you know, give me one or two. Where are some places you'd love to see some real improvement in podcasting? Again, from the production, distribution, even the listening side. Right? Like,
where is something that you're god. Wish we could fix this today. Yeah. Definitely the conversion path. Like, why why is I mean, I get why it's so hard. It's RSS. Like, it's just designed to be open. But, I mean, I wanna connect with my audience. Like, why is this so freaking cool? Like, if people wanna if people wanna sign up and be, you know, like, get on my email
list, I gotta drive them through all kinds of crap. Like, why can't there be some kind of, like, automated conversion path where it's like, write an app. Hey. Put your email in. I'll send you my wrap up. I'll send you my extra stuff. Like, it's always about conversion. Like, people people are doing this for a reason. And I wish that there was a more tightly integrated path to develop an
audience on different channels. I'm gonna ask you a follow-up there that I don't ask a lot of people, but do you think that RSS is here to stay for the long term, or do you think that we are coming up on maybe a transition and a change for this type this type of content? I understand that there's a thing called podcast two point o, and they're trying to add a lot more functionality to, you know, RSS, start treating. I I love the open feed thing. I think it
should stay open. That's that's really cool. Like like it's like email. Right? Like, choose your client. It doesn't matter. Let people do that. There's a lot of movement for open social media, and maybe that'll take off. Like, closed gardens are bad for everybody. That said, you know, it's impossible to ignore the video and, you know, the YouTube approach and the Spotify
video approach. Like, they're all going different directions. So what you're seeing is, like, the big dogs try to prove that I'm the better way to do that thing. Therefore, stop doing the thing that actually made this medium cool in the first place. So will it go that direction? I mean, maybe. Did the world maybe learn some lessons from allowing all content and social media to be behind a walled garden?
Hopefully. Like, podcasting, podcasters and the podcast industry in general is it seems to be dedicated to openness. But I'll also tell you that if you go talk to anybody in a younger generation, what's a podcast? They go, oh, it's that thing on on YouTube where people sit and talk. Right? So could we evangelize differently? I I don't know. I mean, I would I would lament that. I think a lot of, like, purists and, you know, old school people in podcasting would cry, but it's also pretty
cool. And who knows what's gonna happen? I just I would hate to see it devolve to, you know, the battle of the walled gardens because distribution's a freaking nightmare then. Now it just takes, like, an hour to push all your thing, like, individually to every different protocol, and it just becomes a mess. But, of course, that's what those major corporate entities want you to do. Like Right. So you want the biggest garden. Yeah. Alright. What about is
there any tech on your wish list? Whether it's something that is out there that you just haven't purchased or something that you're waiting for someone to come up with to make podcasting easier for you or or your clients. So I've had I've had a Stream Deck in my drawer, like, waiting to be plugged in for, like, two years and never even played with
the thing. It's like that looks really interesting. And I think there's a lot of cool opportunities to introduce better better, visual, you know, representations and, you know, other stuff into the video side. So I have that tech. I it's in the drawer, and I should try to use it. I also am very interested in I forget who makes this thing, but the, because solo episodes are becoming so big and I'm trying to to do more of that. I love those
teleprompters with, like, the camera in bed type of deal on it. Like, that that looks super cool. Like, you can give eye contact and still read and not look weird. But, again, that's that's a a video driven entity. So, potentially, evolution where more integrated audio content would be, you know, really cool. And, again, that goes back to the first question. It was like, well, I wanna do, like, a full cycle relationship
management through audio. Somebody should invent things that make that work where interactive audio is actually a thing, and it doesn't depend on, you know, one universe or the other. The, Elgato teleprompter is, one of the ones that just came out recently that does a a nice job with it. However, I will tell you it works best with either their camera or, you know, a mirrorless camera with, like, a full lens on
it. I tried running it on I have a Logitech BRIO, and, actually, I haven't tried it on my iPhone using continuity cam, and it just it wasn't flush enough so that it gave off, like, a weird brightness to it. But, yeah, that ability to have the teleprompter and better yet, the ability to make eye contact was very nice. It's also just huge, and it was taking up, like, half of my screens. I couldn't see around,
and it was a pain in the butt to, like, take that. That's actually so I have a I have a 55 inch TV as my my monitor, and there's always, well, there's always a camera in my face blocking whatever thing I'm trying to do. So I guess my real wish list would be, like, a massive ass television that would have a a hidden camera, like, you know, sort of view through, like, right in the middle with, like, no cutout. So I was just talking into this screen that had a camera
inside it. That would be that would be my favorite. Like, I love working with an absolutely giant screen. So I love that idea. I'm gonna look into that. Alright. I guess we'll we'll have to, you know, create another startup together and go on that entrepreneurial journey. And, also, what's your favorite podcast that you're listening to? Any any of that, like, you're not gonna let them go by without getting the latest episode or you'll drop what you're doing to to check them out? There
is. I'm a big personal finance nerd, and I love, Ramit Sethi money for couples. So he coaches he coaches couples on the show about their, you know, personal finance, and he's, of course, he's got a whole model. And and I as a business guy, just like, I love this dude's funnel because, I mean, he hits you at every place. Like, you you are on the emails. You're on the like,
he just is a monster of content. But it's really actually really good advice, psychology of money essentially and and how, you know, you can you can manage that stuff. I'm a former financial planner, and that's always been, like, really valuable to me to have money systems. So, yep, check it out. I I I think I could talk to you for, like, three more hours and just go on random tangents all over the place, but, we'll spare the audience and everybody else and let you get back to your
day. We've been chatting with Lej, also David Ledgerwood. He's the cofounder revenue lead at Listen Network. That's listennetwork.co. You can find a link obviously in the show notes. We'll also put a link to David's LinkedIn so you can see some of the great stuff that he is posting online. It has been a pleasure, sir, and I hope we get to do this again. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Thanks, Matthew.