Episode 92: Space Boost

podcasting 2.0 for July 1 2022, episode 92 Space boost Hello, everybody, welcome once again to the official board meeting of podcasting. 2.0. It's Friday, everything going on and podcast index.org Whatever we're developing and doing with the podcast standards, the namespace and of course, all of the gossip, all the real Brain Juice and goo that we find in podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in Alabama ladies, He's doubled the size of

his database. My friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Jones. Yes, yes. TWICE, TWICE the goodness. Yes. Sorry. No, we still we still learning how to drive this thing. It's all new. I'm hoping that our dog doesn't lose his mind. We had, you know, our cat died. Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, we that's, that's fine. Like, we are a cat and we had to go pick up another one. And it's like, this one's out. This one's done trying to get a new

one right away. You didn't even consider for a moment what a hassle a pet. It really is. I mean, you know, it sucks. But there's a lot of a lot of downside to a pet. But it's sort of like I don't know, I see cats is expendable. It's sort of like, sort of like oil filters. You just kind of swap them out. But you always need to have one Yes, like that. You gotta have one around. But then it doesn't matter which one it is. You just if you don't if you don't buy one or getting

given one, one will just show up at your house. I don't even really have to go. I am your oil filter this month. How you doing? Now? One will appear and your backyard and then you just start feeding it you gotta get but this one is a little psycho. On the way to look at. Oh, okay, this is the new one. Where'd you get them? Is it a rescue? No as a true to form. Somebody just randomly said, Hey, do y'all need a cat? Oh, really? I love it. Yeah, I love it. Well, that's what

that's how we got our dog. Like, we just decided to get a dog and we're gonna go the whole audition for a puppy route. Which is kind of ridiculous in my mind. That's yeah, I don't know if I can do this. Barf all over the house, though. It's, this is the problem. Right? But the cats are not like that. Yeah, that I mean, this cat is this cat is throwing up 10 times a day. Oh, okay. Why? What's up? I don't know. I don't know if it's disease. But it's kind of

freaking me out a little bit. You got a bogus cat, man. But wow, the dog hates this cat. So he may. Oh, I see the issue. Yeah, yeah. I'm keeping them separate. And your dogs about the size of mine. Yeah. Not not a small guy. No, it's really another person is really another human being in your house. When your dog walks around, and you hear the floors crazy. Well see, we have the concrete floors. And there's some rugs.

So she just she can't do much. She can't really charge or anything because she'll just like a cartoon will just be slipping. But when she plays go, Oh, yeah. But when she gets the zoomies around the table which is on a carpet. Yeah. It's mayhem. I mean, it's just mayhem. 100 105 pounds. Yeah. Crazy. Hey, I have good news. Oh, yes. I'd like a news. Yes. I mean, I hate being the bearer of bad news, which is good news for us. But Spotify is about to kill itself.

I've got good news. Spotify is about to die. I feel bad about saying that. But there was a really good article, Bloomberg put together and that just it was more for investors. The gist of it is, hey, you know, Spotify put a lot of money into podcasting. They they basically moved from their non profitable business of streaming music, which is a byte definition. It just, you know, you can't really run it profitably. Because the the owners have the law on their

side. The labels have incredible power. They're also shareholders. You know, so it, the whole thing is, is really convoluted. And it's just hard to make money on music, certainly in the models that are out there today. So they can so the audio is their whole thing. And without a doubt, they've got a lot of people using their app to listen to podcasts. And I think they're gonna do audiobooks. I don't know

anything about that business. But the focus was on podcasts and they're saying, hey, hasn't really paid off of course the markets are working against them were when Joe Rogan came on board, it was $353 a share. Now they're down to 100. You know, so So all of that is just not worth it and it makes for unhappy people inside the company who came in have options. I mean, I've been through this I know what

happens. And the story details all of these kinds of entertainment heavyweights who have come in to run the podcasting division from the content perspective, and probably the guy that was most in tune with podcasting, Holt, I think his name was and yeah, he's the one that did the Rogen deal. He's out or strategic advisor. And they brought in a number of people who, you know, came from Paramount and a couple other places. So they go through this whole thing. And you know

how difficult it was and the Obamas. And they went after big names, but those aren't really producing any shows. Long story short. What then to me was, the big news is that they have now moved to a network Podcast Network strategy. And they want to have 50 million creators join their network, and they will help them with everything they need, and they will help them monetize. And they want to be famous, and the dream will come true. So the minute I heard that, I was like, oh, okay,

well, let me tell you right now I'll skip. I'll skip to the sport, right to the end. You cannot monetize the network. This is a scam. And they're doing it exactly the way I did it. Which is why I can say it's going to fail, because I don't think it was me. And I've had a lot, a lot of time to analyze this. We raised and spent $65 million over a 10 year period for it not to work. adjusted to inflation. That's a that's a lot of money as they're

spending today. Yeah. Maybe it was 2005 when we started and we had four rounds of bidding, above all, and these were some were very sophisticated like Silicon Valley. Bo blue chip names Kleiner Perkins, Sequoia Capital rom Sriram. Not many people know that name. But, you know, like original Google funders. We had the network for sure. So we could almost get in touch with anybody we needed. We were a little bit of the outliers because we didn't let ourselves

be diluted over four rounds to some horrible degree. But it didn't matter in the end, because it just didn't work out. We never got an exit. We really, although we rank almost cashflow profitably, we couldn't do it. So I just like to share a couple of reasons why this won't work. So is this a fireside? Is this a fireside chat with Spotify that you're doing right now? Yes, I am picking up on my knee here a Spotify. I feel free to interrupt Dave, if you have questions because I it's like

when I see this. I'm like, oh, no, no, that will not work. Definitely not. We have one question right off the bat. Garan it's less of a question and more of a request for explanation. Can you just give, because I don't think people understand what you cannot monetize the network means. Because when you say that, I think people think, Oh, well ISPs exist and they make money, you can clearly monetize the network, you don't mean that

you mean something different? Can you just give a quick overview of that? Thank you. Good, good point. So when you form a podcast network with independent creators, who you are going to bond together by common advertising, sales, common marketing initiatives, etc, you will provide services such as hosting and other you know, some technological things, maybe the career counseling, etc, etc, which, interestingly, a lot of podcasts hosting

companies do some of that. And I think the most undervalued part is the help desk. And that's where most of the human resources go in is to helping people getting up and running and set. Now we only started with, I think, 12 podcasts that we contracted with, and we and we help them set up LLCs. And we paid them a fixed fee, and above any, with an advance similar to a record company, but not where the horrible royalties. And, and, and these were like Don and Drew and Callie Lewis, who else

do we have? We had the bloated lesbian match Weinstein, the bloated lesbian, we had the rock'n'roll geek show, I mean, and these were the early hits, and we were looking for hits so that that was our understanding of how it would work. And here's what we discovered, because it's very similar to record companies. You know, if something doesn't work, then you just you can't focus your time on it. So we all we had and then every other network that came after us, and please go and look

and tell me how successful they are. They always have a podcaster relations person This is in this there's a new person that Spotify. I gotta see what? Where is this? Is it really a title of podcasts or relations? No, it's BP. It's like it'll be created or something. But yeah, hold on a second. It's a very long article, it's linked in the show notes, of course. Says McNamara. My can't find his name off offhand. But that it's an impossible job. It's an

impossible job. Because here's, here's I'm just gonna tell you what happens. First of all, the sales team is going to think this is great. We're going to change advertising, we're going to have new categories. Oh, yeah. No, I thought this myself. And there will be you know, that really what that results in is

host reads. And so now you have to have when conversations with individual hosts, and you have to discuss how that you know, what tone of voice what the, etc, etc, some individual negotiations, you know, there will be advertiser will have to do a network buy, and then they're going to be, of course, very concerned about brand safety. So now you have to go and see what you know, what shows are you can you trust to

not screw this up? They're talking about 50 million. So, you know, I'm not quite sure how you think you're going to

automate that. But the minute advertiser hears something on a show that they don't like, or, like some outfit, like Sleeping Giants wants to use leverage and tells them about it, they pull it from the whole network, and then you have the downside of the network, which is, you know, you get a big buy, and they can also pull it back, and then you have nothing and then you have other issues.

Is that the key that everybody thinks to making money is that you're going to get that you're going to get a certain amount of total network buys. Is that Is that where they're aiming it? Well, before I answer the question, there's a fundamental difference. And this is why we talked about I talked about not being able to monetize the network, is because you don't have a lock, you don't actually own the network. That's kind of the the double entendre.

You know, unlike a television network, where most of these executives come from, you know, you don't determine what comes on at eight o'clock. And what comes on after that. So now that people have choice, not just choice of content offerings, but also choice of when they want to view something, or how they want to view or listen to something, this is too much choice, you can't lock them in. So it's like, a kind of a shitty show, but I'll watch it anyway. There's nothing else. That's how

we grew up. So I can yeah, there's nothing else I can't really switch to this is what the network is playing. But there's too many alternatives that people can go anywhere. I mean, podcasting didn't collapse, when Joe Rogan went to Spotify just didn't. So what this always results in always, is brands going to networks and saying, You know what, we want to create our own podcast. And we want to have this host and we

have this kind of vibe. Now Spotify, they are now in the business where the analytics, their analytical tools they've been talking about, they're going to fall right down the Netflix hole of well, okay, the data says, people like true crime with a female trans host. woman of color that talks about you know, and, and they'll come up with these Frankenstein type

programming, but they'll sell something. Or here comes the the motorcycle brand, hey, you know, we want to do a big deal with all your motorcycle podcasts and then everyone has to be talked to, and okay, now you want to integrate it into the programming, it's never ending story. And the poor person who is podcaster relations, is going to hate the job. In the end, you

just can't get to the scale. And that's when so when you have BMW and Pfizer and Verizon, when you and American Airlines when they're coming to you to advertise, there's no margin for error. And you just can't wrangle it, you can't wrangle it. And then you get the other end of it. Where podcasters they're gonna share all their contracts. Hey, what are you getting paid? No, I'm getting this. But your deal, you know, Hey, man, how come he's getting all the marketing and when can

we get some marketing? It doesn't work. It's painful. It's painful, but the reason they have to do it is they can't get the cheap money anymore. The cheap money markets are closed so they can't buy any more of whatever they think is worth buying. So I have to discard They have to guard their cash pile now. If they have any whatever they have left they have to guard it with with great care. Yes. They can't just go out and blow it because there's no defaults that get turned off.

Yeah, then that's for everybody. That's universal. I mean, of course, there's still deals being done. But you know, there's no buying anything big in I don't think that would be quite surprising, because, you know, investors are kind of losing confidence in the whole strategies. Yeah, it's a fickle market. Joe has been what? How long? Has he been doing it a year? Rogen? Yeah, a year and a half now must be longer than that. Now we've been we've been here a year. So year and a half probably.

Yeah. And they've they've dropped talking about, they've dropped talking about him out of all of their everything, even though everything's they don't even mention his name anymore. The Bloomberg article even had a different title at first, which was interesting. The title of this was Spotify, his billion dollar bet on podcasting has yet to pay off. But I saw the same article. Let me see the same article with a different title that had Rogen in it, which I think was published earlier.

Can't find it? So anyway, so yeah, I have things to add. Yeah. So please, continue. No, I think my rant I mean, my rant kind of ends there. But the podcasting is something unique to the internet. It's different from radio in the way it's distributed, obviously. But it's not just the actual real time distribution, which is it always tickles me that we all get excited about real time and live

shows and lit and all that. But it's it's such a it's such the antithesis, but it has a place, it has a place as a part of an overall strategy. And over here, which includes me, to me, it's the studio audience. That's That's what lit is, you know, we have, I don't know what 15 People in the chat room, that's the studio audience, it creates a vibe that makes it work. It's a programming decision, not necessarily a distribution decision. But when but not having that lock on the network.

You know, this is where people want you. There's only one Super Bowl. Right? Always with the time the timing is fantastic. So you just can't there's a certain amount of pages in your magazine each month? Well, this is why I always say ultimately, you know, how in when Google sells inventory, I mean, they can make as much inventory as they want. You know, the price just has to naturally go down, which is what happened with pay per click and, and pay per impression. All that

stuff just went down because you can make infinite. I mean, even expanding networks grows that market. I mean, well, now we're seeing now we're seeing artificial scarcity be the play, I think you're seeing what they're trying to do is say the artificial scarcity is we've got these big names. We're developing, you know, Amy Schumer's podcasts were developing, you know, so the

Obamas are gone. But that showed, you know, the article even kind of pans that and says, you know, so, the Obamas basically, Barack was on the first episode of Michelle's podcast, she did 14 episodes after that. And then the President Obama did like one chat with Bruce Springsteen, they turned it into a series podcast, very sad mo facts rip off, I'll say You know, so it most The fact is when people have choice of the scary shit over here, oh, I might hear a

bad word. But I kind of want to hear that, you know, we're Cinemax. D, do you think the lack of talking about Rogan at all in any of their media presence now? Do you think that signals that he's not that he's probably not going to stick with him beyond the contract length? Um, man? That's a good question. I I I really can't answer that. I mean, I don't even know if Joe's compensation isn't partially tied to the stock price. I mean, we really don't know. Yeah, that

anything we don't know the contract. Yeah, we don't know the details of the deal. And so I don't know, I really don't know. Well, this this ties into something that I've had written on my on my notes for a while. And I actually can piece it together with something that I did this morning actually. Is, I wonder how my question is, I wonder how long anchor is going to survive? Oh, no. Like they're gonna boot there. I feel like they're just gonna boot them to the curb.

Well, wait, what's their alternative? Bringing it in house is an anchor, okay, but they're still because I think what you're gonna see from Spotify is an integrated join us If we do your hosting, we do all of that. Yes. And under the Spotify name, I think that's what they're really going to do. So you have to anchor anchor is literally an anchor for the hem of its business wise. I mean, they, they don't seem to bring in any revenue, it seems they're

probably losing money, I would have to imagine. I mean, where's the revenue from? They're free, they're free podcast host. They,

it's the GoDaddy, it's the go to free podcast host. As far as I can tell, it's like, oh, I'll just set up a show on Anchor, that's fine, stupid people, which is the worst thing possible is to have, you know, that's what I tell people when it comes to, you know, using the end, using the index, sometimes people will say, Well, you know, they'll imply that, that we really want to get as many users on the API as possible. And like, that's really not the

case. Because every time a free, you know, somebody else free starts using the API, it's more load on us, it costs us money.

And so it's really doesn't work that way. Same way. Same way, with with Spotify and anchor, as the more popular anchor is, the more it costs them to run it. And, you know, the head, the guy, the head guy, Manyana left, who had been there since before the acquisition, you know, he was one of the founders, and going all the way back to the South by Southwest, you know, launch of, of anchor as a social audio product, and God and he got all about that. Yeah, it was the proto clubhouse,

essentially. But then they, you know, so he, they pivot nailed, yeah. And he and they pivoted into podcasting to survive, and then anchor bottom. And now anchor is now Spotify is testing out their thing, this thing in New Zealand, where they're allowing people in the Spotify app to essentially do the exact same thing that Ankur does, which is just pick up your phone and talk into it, and you have a podcast, but it's pure Spotify

and anchor is not involved with this at all. So that tells me that I don't think anchor is very as long for this world. They would, I mean, it'd be crazy not not to take the infrastructure, they're going to rebuild. You know what, yeah, probably this month, they'll rebuild it, they'll rebuild your anchor will become the paid plan become a paid platform, and Spotify will be the sort of ephemeral talking to your phone type free thing. No, no, no, no, no, I disagree. I don't think that talking into

your phone thing is going away. That's going away that no one has made money on that. I think they're professional, basically, the reverse of what a podcast host does a podcast hosting company, the good ones, they say, Hey, come over here. Here's how you can you know, here's how you get started. Here's resources, here's learning material, you can schedule like, I know, Todd to blueberry, he seems to talk to every new

customer. And make a plan for them. You know, if he believes that they're worthwhile, or whatever, I'm not sure how that how that works. But I know that he sits down with people and says, here's what you can realistically expect and, and he helps them what he can't promise is hey, you know, I'm going to make you rich, famous and powerful, not necessarily in

that order. Yeah, you know, Spotify says hey, look at the look at the you'll be right next to dot dot dot, you know, will put you in the recommended podcasts for dot dot dot right beside right beside Rogan or right besides whatever we ever fill in the blank, exactly blank, fill it in, we'll put you near the sports guy stuff or, or will Hello brand we'll help you develop this is this will happen, I guess you can write this one down, a brand will show

up. And a brand will say we want to create the ultimate sports podcast or maybe even podcast network of shows. We want to own it, and you have all the data so tell us what all the elements are that we need to have, get us the talent and and that's how it will happen. And that's not even necessarily a recipe for success, but they will do that. It's the nature of finding the

business. There's no business they can't make it on ads for whatever reason they're not they're not unprofitable because of the expenditures that unprofitable because it's not profitable. Well, a network a a hosting platform of 3 million podcasts 2.9 9 million of which nobody ever listens to is a money

losing situation correct right? It's it's literally you know, they would be much better off if they just punted on RSS altogether and and converted anchor into the Spotify brand bring them in house and just be appeared database with an API for their for their purposes. That would be the exactly exact way to go. Yeah, I think that's what the Devon think that's what the last year of of No. tilling the soil and publicly has probably been about because they think they will do that. No, I

don't. It seems no, I don't think so. No, that's not what they're saying. They're saying they want 50 million creators. on Spotify. Oh, you think? Anchors all on all on Spotify? No RSS feeds only Spotify? Yeah, I think I think that that will result in one thing and one thing only people uploading everywhere, including Spotify. Yeah. Pretty much. Oh, brother. So this I guarantee that's what it is. Yeah, it's probably right. But the the other part, though, was is pot. This has been in my

crawl for a while. And the reason this is related is because Spotify clearly wants to be the YouTube of podcasting. Now, they would say there between the YouTube of podcasting and by the way, YouTube, look at how much money they do look at how much how many people have to work there to monitor all this crap. So their advertisers don't get

pissed off. And they pissed off and demonetized and dehumanized a lot of people, but because they had an actual business tied to the back of it, namely, Google search, they were able to weather through all the storms. We see they always get a backstop. Yeah, they have a real business, they have a real business on the funds, everything. They weren't profitable for a long time, they were losing a lot of money on infrastructure a lot. Spotify,

of course, also wants to move towards video. So that in a combination with the Netflix model, which we know also isn't working too well right now. Well, the so I went through we've heard time after time after time, over the last couple of years that I don't remember when this was first talked about, but I think it was something with Edison Research and I don't remember where this

started. But I know I've heard Tom Webster talk about it on other shows about how the number one pod is the number one app for listening to podcast is always YouTube. And this has always bothered me. I don't something about it. I was a thought you know, I just I can't articulate why I did why I think

that number is bogus. But I just think it's bogus. And I want to so I just went and I went and grabbed the weekly podcast listeners survey from Edison the US Top 50 podcast and this is probably the most complete survey that did that's out there. And I just went one by one I grabbed the top 20 I grabbed the top 25 Out of the 50 and I searched for each one of them on YouTube and just wrote down what what I found. And so the Joe you know Joe Rogan clearly is number one in podcast

world for listeners. Only is only clips. There's not full episodes occasional clips on YouTube. Crime junkie is number two. They are they do post their episodes to YouTube but each each one of them has less than 1000 views. So clearly not anything of any consequence at all. The daily is number three from New York Times no they are not on YouTube. This American Life has not has a YouTube channel but they haven't posted

to in three years. My favorite murder only has clips and I'm just going in order from top to bottom six stuff you shouldn't know they have not posted to their YouTube channel into yours. office ladies from ear wolf studios I can't find it. Dateline NBC they have a few they have clips but otherwise they clips and trailers. Ben Shapiro is on there. So that's that's a big one. Call her daddy. Spotify only not on not on YouTube or there's clips on the I guess. Morbid a true crime

podcast. They are on there but they have roughly 1000 views per per episode. There are a bunch of NPR shows so what you're saying is bogus. Well, here's here's if you get down to you don't see any you don't see any significance at all in the top in this top 25 until you get down to most of them not even there but you get

you get down to number 21 which is the h3 podcast. I was not familiar with h3 podcast no finally but that finally has some big numbers and then next to it the next one in line is number 22 the impulsive with Logan Paul. Now these these two shows appear to be highly YouTube first is Oh yeah. Oh, especially Logan Paul. Oh yeah. YouTube first then podcast. Yeah. And so This makes it they they are YouTubers who are also podcasting. Yeah, so they've built their audience in YouTube.

These aren't these aren't podcasters that came to YouTube and just happened to post their content there. I'm glad you brought this up. Because there's, here's an example of audio versus video. I always like to give these examples when I come across them because I like audio. I think there's a place for video. And lots of people love video, and I've nothing against video. I don't like doing it. And this is my personal reason. I think you can do a lot more with audio

with sound. It's more. It's more intimate. And the disaffected podcast which you and I both listen to. Josh, what's his name? Slocum, I think? Yeah. Which is a really funny podcast for a whole bunch of reasons. We don't necessarily have to go into it. But I had never seen the podcast, I thought it was only audio. In fact, I only recently did I discovered that I guess it's video because he was

talking about something he was showing. And he always does a good job of describing what he's showing on screen so that the listeners can understand. And then you sent me a link to the video version, because we both thought the opening was was rather stunning. And, and then I saw him and it's like, oh, I didn't quite imagine him like that. And now I'm conflicted. It's like seeing Sam Sethi only the really gay version. I mean, that's a good way sound. That's nothing to do with you. It's

more about Josh. So you know, just like, wow. And then I saw his studio and I had a whole different idea about it. And every single time that's, I don't want to say it's a letdown. But it is not because it's more or less, but it's just so wildly different from what I had had in mind. And it affects it affects my my entertainment. My pleasure. That I guess I'm trying this is not a this is not a thing about a nor an argument about what is a podcast? No, this is not a no

or No, I'm not saying YouTube is not a podcast. And because podcasts are only shows with RSS feeds. Not what I'm saying. This is not that argument. This is about what importance the podcast industry should place on these types of surveys and these numbers, because nothing is relevant. Well as a tech support, doing tech support for 27 years. Any number never had a fight. And the one thing you find everybody that comes in the that

every employee that I've they've had this worked under me. Day one, I tell them the exact the first thing if they have never worked in tech support before users lie. That is the number one thing you have to remember. They do not tell the truth. And it's not because they don't lie willfully on purpose maliciously, they lie because they don't know what they're talking about. And so this when you when a listener says, oh, yeah, I listen to you. I listen to podcasts on YouTube. They

have no idea what they're telling you. They don't know what that means. And what because what this looks like to me. Is that the Yeah, I listen to podcasts on YouTube. It comes down to a couple of two or three specifically Rogen and color daddy, previous mega hits that were dominant on YouTube. And then also a couple of YouTube first kids. Yeah, that's what that's what they mean. Yeah. Now you cannot take that type of thing. extract it out and apply it to the podcast into to the

customers of blueberry. It doesn't apply, you know, but you know, I just have to insert my my age old thing. There's no podcast industry. This is all horseshit. Everyone's all jacked about a creator study. Oh man there's too many men creating podcast is not equitable. What are we going to do? Let's throw some money at some BLM LGBTQ IP k plus noodle boys. It'll all be good. Well, that's basically that I don't I don't believe those numbers

either. No source none women podcast and when women are all over podcasting, there's no way that number can be right. There's there's no way no. I mean, some sometimes you'd have to believe your dog and remind over my dog. That's my dog. Number one, my cat I'm muting a mute doing like, what is it? Is that my? My dogs? You meet your dog? Okay, I'm sorry.

Yeah. Well, you know, sometimes you just have to say, you look at a thing and you hear some numbers, you're like, I just can't believe that, that it lacks a certain what do you call it? Not the one I was thinking, Oh, no. It lacks a, a real world credibility where you look and you say, oh, yeah, I could see that, or that's a little. That's a little higher than I thought

it would be. But when it comes out, and it's so skewed, I mean, Todd Cochran had the same exact reaction on the new media show, you know, this week, he was like, This is not what we see in blueberry. No, I mean, he's like this dark Raiders. I mean, we're like 5050. And again, it all comes. Okay. I've been around for a while in the business. None of this matters, because there is no,

there's the billion dollars. I mean, there's a billion dollars going in maybe, and it's going into things, but it's not going into advertising. And not everybody seeing that. And there's just no industry. It can't it's it's not built that way, the whole idea. I mean, it's, it's so weird that so much like Bitcoin. It's like you can do whatever you want. But it's not just not going to change anything. It's just not some

improvements can come. But that's about it. You know, the core is always going to be the same and it's just not monetizable. And that's the same book. I'm very excited about going to Podcast Movement. You and I are doing a 45 we have been granted a 45 minute talk. Now. I just want to want everyone to know I never did keynotes I refuse to do keynotes because it's always paid to play. I don't like it. I don't know, I I'm not slagging anybody, because I don't I'm not

in the conference business. But you know, after Mark, what's his name? Cuban after Cubans appearance and the success last year to have him back. It's like, okay. But even from the first podcast conference, I was asked to, you know, sponsor it, like, No, you're in the business, you get your people in, you know, the value for value. And I said, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do a conference where I have to speak at to pay to speak. So until we have a little bit and I'm, I

love this because I want to be so packed. Because there's only one thing people go to conferences for really podcasters creators interested parties. How do I make money? That's the question. That's what everybody wants answered. And we're going to answer that. Yeah, I wish I could take JCD with me. That'd be great. But yeah. Yeah, he would love Oh, that he's there. He's there with belzona

convenient. What would happen? I'll tell you exactly. He'd be in the bar with the hottest chicks all hanging around and fun. It's I'm telling you, man, he's he's an exam magnate. John C. Dvorak is a chick magnet. He is He is I'm telling you funny. Yes. funny because I can kind of believe it. Easily. Ya know, he's got a whole vibe, man. Hey, girls. Like as as having gone to Podcast Movement last year. There again, I can tell you that. I mean, at least 50%

women. I just me I know. We've moved on. But yeah, again, I mean, like, I just don't buy that number. Sorry. Just just don't buy it at all. I guess. So anyway, yes, we do have a good I don't know you might have cute might have died by now just with old age since we've been running this so long. Very happy to have back in the boardroom here. One of the first developer I think was one of the first developers along with Martin, I think early on, came

in and started developing for podcasting. 2.0 has been a driving force behind a lot of what we're doing in particular, and I'm very selfish about this because he created first within curio kit caster, but later as an external external application or a magazine. It feels like an application but of course it's on his server, sovereign feeds.com Which is what we use to test all the new features. It is he really is the vendor of

the scissors we run with here at podcasting. 2.0 Ladies and gentlemen, say hello to scissor vendor Steven Bell. Hi, guys. How's it going? Yeah, I'm so sorry to keep you waiting so long. We were just getting our getting our groove on as are right. We given the given the nature of the last two or three episodes. It's it's pretty clear that we can get it there. We know how to beat a dead horse with real good hours on it. Yeah. Much to the chagrin of most of the people listening but thanks by

the way to everybody. Who is listening to this show as we're lit, the live item tag is going pod verse curio caster, I think are the two that can handle it right now you get right in there and you get your chat, your, your live stream, your boost interface. Everything is all in there. And we love it. Steven, I, you know, I'd reached out to you to get on because you just we had you on what? A year ago? I guess maybe? Yeah, I think it was September of last year.

Okay. And you've done like, You've done so much since then. I mean, you and you and Mitch, just add features like they're, I mean, just like you pick them off a shelf and just shove them in there. I mean, like this just like one a week almost like Legos. Oh, and I put this on? Yeah. But, you know, specifically sovereign themes is

it's becoming a, I mean, it's becoming a real platform. Yeah, just do you want to just kind of go over what do you have like a quick overview that you tell people of what sovereign feeds does? Yeah. So I've been applying for developer positions. And I'm using that as my, I guess that's my portfolio site. And let them know that this is for people who are self hosting their own RSS feeds, and they could put in the majority of the podcasting 2.0

tags, and then host it on their own server. And just so you guys know, I tried releasing it last night, but I'm having issues with course. Oh, yeah. Yeah, hey, cores, but I've got it working on my local machine where you can now drag and drop your files. And as long as you have a Dropbox spaces, you can put your API keys in. And it will upload your mp3 and images to your Dropbox. Oh, cool, and populate your whole thing. So it's like being in any hosted RSS feed builder, without the

help desk? Yeah, without the help desk. And I will say, as Stephen, of course, is very humble. But I did a little I did a little bit of background research. And Steve and I do see the you have earned the LinkedIn skill badge for front end development. So I mean, nothing to be downplayed. Yeah, nobody wants to hire an electrician to be a developer. And I'm on hireable anyway, Steven, I'm right there with ya. So you are a you're an electrician? By trade, ma'am.

Yeah, I've got my Master's license. And I moved out of the field probably eight years ago. And now I do estimating. We know how much the job should cost for the guys in the field to do it. I need to ask you this question because I've had a couple of electricians over here and I I really did not like one I really liked the other one. I think that the one I liked was on drugs, which is kind of the cool thing about him. But I've noticed that with electricians, unlike any other vocation,

especially master your master electrician, I presume. Yeah. If you even mentioned something about hey man, maybe we can move the you know, the water pipe or you know this gas line or you know, not even meaning that the electrician should do it. The electrician the master electrician goes Do you see do you see do you see a plumber anywhere here on my jacket? I was just say electrician What is this a universal thing you guys have a stick up your ass?

Yeah, maybe I want to do the other tree eyes work. And hey, when it comes to the totem pole electricians are on the bottom because it's easier to move wires than it is to you move plumbing pipes so you always have to clean this shit up at the plumbers leave behind Yeah, so if we go in and the HVAC guy needs to put duct work well, if our stuffs in the way we got to move it out of the way for him so you're all so you're always the cleanup guy.

Yeah, we're the we're the low guys on the totem pole Whereas of course an electrician takes great pride in exactly how they run the wires you know right down to the stripping distance all that stuff I mean that's the stuff that you guys live for. Oh yeah, you can you can tell when a good craftsman has done it because if you look on the switch plates or the receptacle plates that little screw will be facing vertical

yes I have noticed that Yeah, exactly. Even down to the screws you're right down to the screws Yeah, it's a problem for a lot of guys because we have we have that desire for craftsmanship but you still need to get the job done and get it profitable for the owner so that he's got enough to keep this company going. Well that's it's funny because my dad My dad always said that. All you need to you need to know to you just need to know two things to be a plumber. Shit floats and water runs downhill.

And pay days on Thursday. I feel like like I feel like I, I feel this from you know, I am a curio caster user I abuse. All all apps except cast thematically don't have iOS in my life anymore. And I'm using them just to see what new features are coming out. But I always go back to curio caster, I love the web app. And it's always evolving. And I wanted to compliment you on how you've translated some of those master electrician screws all up in the

in the vertical position. You've translated that into a lot of the user experience, all these little things start popping up, you know, the new tag, the On Air tag, the LIVE TAG, just the whole experience, I can feel it developing around my my user experience without really interrupting it. And you really do a good job on that. Yeah, I've got two competing things, because I think the RSS feed, the podcaster is the one who should own that and own what

is being displayed to the listener. That's why I was so adamant that if we're doing comments, I want the podcaster to be able to say man that does not match my brand. I don't want those comments associated with my particular feed. I think about a pastor who there may be comments that he just doesn't want his congregation reading. So on one hand, I want the podcaster to have control. But within the app, the listener is

the one who's primarily using that not the podcaster. So I want their experience to be as best as I know how to do it. Have you actually done that implementation? I haven't done. I haven't done anything I've done. Okay, that's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah, we're speaking of Rena, we need to move forward with the I think it's time to just kind of codify polish up. Yeah. And finalize the social interact tag. I don't think there's

anything else. What we've been talking about as an essay, we just with John Spurlock and Alex and a lot of people who has had some input on the social interact tag is that I mean, it's probably just ready to it's probably ready to go. And if we want to do some sort of live chat tag, I think it's probably right at this point to just have that as a separate tag, or, or maybe a property or some, some other deliver that in some other way. Because they, in some ways they aren't they in some ways,

they are different. They, they are different things. And in some ways they aren't. And I guess from just my own personal perspective, when when you have a thing like that, which is so so what what I'm talking about is I'm talking about social media comments, style comments, and then chat. So it's the difference between something like Twitter or Mastodon would be social order comments in the chat would be more like Slack. IRC. Jabber? XMPP

XMPP Yeah, yeah. Or, or was this not synapse? Was the was the other big one? The Matrix? Matrix? Yes. Thank you matrix. So that's, they're, they're kind of the same. But they're also very, very different feel and used in very different forms. And so whenever there's just my personal preference, whenever there is a difference like that, it just seems like it's right to

separate them out. Because we could, we could shoehorn chat into the social interact tag in some way that I don't I don't know that it's really necessary. Yeah, I don't like the idea of going into social interaction. Social enacts already a complicated tag. And now we're going to start adding stuff and we had to simplify it because we had an open to just about anything that anyone could think of. And I think we simplified it to lightning, Twitter and then mastodon.

Yes. Activity. Activity. Yeah. Yep. And I think that they're different enough that it's easier just to create a whole new tag and do that in. I guess we're in Phase Five, where we're still introducing new tags, but I think we've shown enough interest in chat that it should at least be a tag that's considered gentlemen. I have to play. And now it's time for some namespace. That's that's not too corny. No, no, no, it's not as bad as the math. The math is out of control. So episode

100. It'll come back coming up. But yeah, no, I think that's right. I think the so we'll go ahead and finalize social interact because there's Yeah, it's ready to be used me people. floor, people are trying to do things with it at this point. And so I think it's ready to go to go ahead and do it. And then we can always modify or add to and not modify, but add to it later expanded. Are you do you think you'll? Do you think you'll plug that in once once we hit once we make it final?

Oh, for sure. I mean, I've already got some sort of bastardize implementation of chat in the live items. So once we've got something figured out, I definitely want that within the feeds. The apps that or I'm sorry, the podcasters that are using it, it's really important to them. A bastardized implementation of anything is pretty much its ship. I mean, that's good. You're good to go ship it. Ship it down. Oh. So let me go back to sovereign feeds for a second.

Sovereign. I think you tried to figure out, even trying to figure out what's best the best way to do the hosting part like the actual media files, where they're going to live, where they're going to be served from? Are you have you ever settled on Dropbox as your solution? I have only because it's the one I've looked at. And their API was easy enough to do. I was looking at Dropbox because it was free. And I really want to be able to get musicians on

board with something that's easy. And there's not a lot of buy in, because I don't know that. I don't know that guys want to spend $12 a month for something that they're going to get $2 A month initially. question, Can you hook this up to? The what's the name of that service? That all the musicians upload to? We talked about him my bank? That was crosstalk like Bandcamp is original? No, not Bandcamp? The other one the that also has RSS feeds. RSS Feed me a music service. That's Bandcamp.

No, no, no, it's not a music service. SoundCloud, SoundCloud. Don't they have an API? I don't know, I'd have to look into that. The only reason I'm saying is if anywhere that there's an API that you can offload, like Dropbox is a great one. I'm saying if you could tap into a couple more of those. I mean, what? What I almost think there's a, I've always thought there's a market and I can never understand why no one builds it on. Who's our favorite Linux host there? Dave? Linode,

Linode. You know, you almost want an a script, that you go on Linode, you know, boom, set up an instance boom, it's running. Boom, you've got your storage, boom, you got your Cloudflare. Yeah, that's, so what Dropbox spaces does is it does that for you. You're just uploading the files, and you can decide to serve them through a CDN. So you don't have to set up a separate wildflower and cool Cloudflare instance, oh, I didn't realize that. Okay, so they have the API to all

those other things. That's cool. They do. And it's $5 a month, and you get 250 gigabytes of storage and one terabyte of bandwidth. That's about half an hour for the no agenda show. Yeah. I think the CDN should probably cut down on that quite a bit for any of those static files. That's cool, man. Congratulations. What a great idea.

Yeah, and I figured five bucks a month, and especially if a few bands decided to get together, because I don't think they're going to be using the one terabyte for a few three minute songs, especially this early on, where people just aren't using it yet. And then if it does get popular, they can get they can increase their bandwidth by paying an extra five bucks for another terabyte. Now, how are you? How are you working into this equation with the value for value?

So I've got I've got an ln URL on the front screen that anyone can scan if they want to donate. And then I've got a button where when you're putting in the value block, it asks you if you want to add sovereign feeds to the value block. Yeah, cool. Yeah, that's what that's what you guys are doing. And then mixer is doing that. And Mike Newman's doing that, dude, Mike Newman just boosted us. 100,001 Satoshis. Oh,

that's nice. Yeah. Just yeah, he's a nice guy. And he's super helpful with with using the product and let me know and you had a pain point, we might as well get this one out of the way now, is that added as a fee to the split meaning, I want to see if we all agree on this, that is in addition to the to the podcaster split. So I put it as a fee for 5%. And I can change that within the program. But what you guys did was you went ahead and manually added it as a 5% split.

Yeah, we were given it we're giving it to you from our because you know, its value for value. So we want it to come from us? And I feel that's correct, because we're using you to create the feed. So we should be taking the hit. So yes, and that's so the All it's doing is inserting me into the value block that's in the RSS feed, right? But is that as a split or a fee? It is. So when you click that button, it goes in as a fee, which means it would be on top for the listener.

Okay, so that's, that's where I'm getting confused. Because, yeah, the way I understand a fee is, if a listener boost 1000 SATs to the podcaster, they expect 1000 SATs to come out of their wallet. Now, does the fee come out of that 1000 SATs or does it get added? Now when it's within the podcasters value block? I think it should come out of that it should come out of that 1000 SATs because it's in the podcasters value block. I

agree. And the podcaster has a choice over whether he wants that to be a fee or not. So Oh, okay. So fee would be comes off the top before the split is made? Or you're part of the actual split? Yes. Now we have a different type of fee, which would be an app fee. Yes. Which the podcaster doesn't have control over? Right. So the question is, is does the app fee come off the top? Or does it get added to the amount, the way I would like it to be is it's added to the amount if it's

an app on the on the users listener side. And I'm going to so my idea is I'm going to let the listener decide whether they so as long as they understand when they're boosting 1000 SATs, that that only 950 of it's going to the podcaster. They're ultimately choosing that because they've chose that

option. But I'm also going to give them the option that they can add it on top knowing that when they boost 1000 SATs, they're going to get 1050 taken out that way, whatever mental model they have of how that should be working, when they click that boost button is how that works. And they can see the money coming out of their wallet. So you're leaving it up to the user? And what is the default that comes out of the podcasters? Take? Um, I don't know. I think that would probably be my, my initial

implementation, because it's easier with the logic. But I don't have a dog in the fight with one way or another. The without risking getting back into this again this week that that was the initial, the initial reasoning behind taking it out of the total, instead of adding it to the top was for that was purely for the reason of that you don't surprise the listener when they chose Okay, I'm gonna send 1000 SATs and then more than that came out of their wallet. And they're like,

whoa, wait a second. You know, where's it going? That was the original original thinking. So I think that, yeah, I think these these explorations are just, it's just part of the maturing process in the market. Yeah, like I said, I'm building the interface for the listener, because I want that user experience to be as painless as possible. So I'm thinking for myself when I set the boost to

1000. I don't want to have to do this mental math of okay, I guess I got I got 1000 SATs left in my wallet, I'm going to drain the wallet. Now I have to go 950, and then the amount that goes to the to the podcaster. And then how much is the app going to take? I just want them to say hey, it's 1000 SATs. That's how much is coming out of the wallet. Yeah. But I certainly understand from a podcaster point of view where yeah, that that's ultimately money that would be going to

them? Yeah. So I understand why it was set up that way to protect the app developer, but now the podcaster has no protection. Yeah, cuz as an app developer, I could say 100%. And people may not know if they're not checking their transaction history. Yeah. And I don't think it would be nefarious like that. I don't expect that to happen. And you know, I've been told by friends to shut the fuck up and trust the free market. So I'm trying

to do my best here. But, you know, I, for instance, I don't think you charge this but if I find 5% too much. Yeah, and I actually I do charge 5% 3% goes to curio caster, I do 1% to the podcast index and 1% to Elon pay. Right. No, I understand. But, you know, I give 5% to Dred Scott, who does the chapters you know, so I'm just looking at the value for value because I got a lot of different apps that have

different numbers. So we don't have to get into the argument again, is I feel like it's I feel just as passionate that I should be paying out of my podcast or split for for sovereign feeds that I shouldn't be paying for it out of curio caster. And the reasoning Well, the listener will be surprised. That's just not a good UX. You haven't explained it, or I haven't explained podcasting. 2.0 isn't well understood, or, or we're back to that very debate, a value for value.

Because you're not actually asking the listener to value your stuff. You're saying, I've been thinking about ways that how can this be monetized without me having to take a cut of of the boost at all. Because I originally, when I first had this, and it was called a tip jar, you could do individual boost. And my intention with that was people could pick curio caster as an individual boost if they want it to. But also, if they really loved the drum solo

from a band, they can do that. And I've since removed that, because I don't think that the listeners should be able to override what the podcaster wants. I agree. I agree. I think that the booths should go to whatever the is in the value block. So I'm trying to figure out ways that an app and what we've, what we've hit on here is, and I've had time to think about it from last week, is the actual Crux in the value for value system. How are you getting people to value you?

Because you're not feeling pain? Or gain necessarily doing it? No, I'm saying it's like, when when the split comes from the podcaster, it's the podcaster, who gets less value, and then has to say, Well, is this worth it to me now, I'm not saying fight, but just philosophically 5% 50%. And it's all about the numbers. That's what value for value is. And it feels a bit like podcasts, our app developers in general, still don't really want to say, hey, value my app, in and here's the

way you can do it. And this is what I'd like you to do. Which would be voluntarily put, you know, 5%, on top, or whatever someone feels is, and you may be surprised. Whatever someone feels is appropriate for the experience they get from the app, it's still coming. It's invisible to the user, the value to the app, it's virtually invisible. Yeah, and I, what I'm leaning towards is just giving them that

option. And they can choose the percentage. I'm also thinking about ways to how can I do a leaderboard like maybe as a splash screen, when you first load up, and I've got everything loading, maybe there's a splash screen that shows the top donors or it can show a podcaster decides to send a boost message to curio caster with a link to his podcast, so that he is doing some sort of advertising, I mean, just like what comic strip loggers doing within your guys's value segment, there could be a

value segment as part of the splash screen for the app itself. I don't think that's a great, I'm just I'm, and I think we're done. At developers, you're selling yourself short, if you don't ask people to support the work you're doing in addition to what they're doing in supporting the work of podcasters whether that's, that's I mean, I don't care how you do it. But I think you should be a part of the streaming sites and the and the booster grams, because that's

where the money is, just to be frank about it. And I really feel that you would be surprised if instead of hiding it, you know, because the user, the user will be disappointed, upset and angry emails, etc. Then the debate is not even being held properly. The debate should be I put this work into this, you like this app, you like how it works, I respond to your request, I keep developing this thing, I add new features. We go on and on and on and on. Is that worth 5%? On top of what you're

sending? Or is that worth, you know, X amount per month, or whatever your methodology is, it's still about to ask, and I'm not and I've never considered this. I've only thought of value for value, which does not work without the ask if you don't ask and you don't have the feedback loop. So your leaderboard is

part of I think part of the right system. But developers have to also under figure out how to ask just like podcasters and the reason The reason is you will benefit you will get a shitload more. No, I agree. And I've been thinking about how that can be done. Because how many times have you gone on the Wikipedia page? And there is the if everybody just donated $5, we'll be done with Okay. Thank you. This is thank you very much. Welcome to value for

value, I'll tell you exactly what happens there. Because once a year, maybe once every two years, I click that button, because I think, you know, I slag them off, it's a piece of shit, but I always use it during my live shows, I'll donate to them, the total number of value for value donors that you're going to get is going to be about 4%. That's it, don't expect everyone to do it. And that's not the value for value model. Now, why does it work for Wikipedia? Or Wikimedia? Why did

they raise 35 to $50 million? Because there's 95% of the people do nothing. There's 1%, like me who you know, 100 bucks, 250, or something like that. And then you have someone who come in with 10,000 A million. That's how it works. And I can't explain why. But like last week, we got now deemed to pay to our boost. You know, and that that made our month that literally made our month in booster grams. That's how it works. You go and there's a gamification element in that, which I hate calling it

gamification. It's called a recognition, where you thank someone for what they did that inspires other people. Now, how you do that in software? I'm not exactly sure. I think the leaderboards ideas are good. I've seen a lot. I mean, I'm always buying a cup of coffee, if that's the only option. And I usually buy the cup of coffee and say, Can I give you 50 bucks to an open source project?

Now, have you considered how do you increase that? 4%? Because every listen, you can't, you can't You don't you don't increase, you don't increase the 4%, you increase the value proposition by adding new features and then saying, Hey, we started off at 1%. But now we've done this, this and this, would you consider doing 3%? Or you know what? Why don't you put in the percentage you think this is worth? That's where you need to get to you

need to get to people being able to do open ended. And at the same moment, right, it having a QR code is great, but it's separate from the whole functionality. I would have a button right there right next to boost. Yeah, I've considered doing that in sovereign feeds, where you can just look at links, you can link them, you can unlink them. And there's all kinds of ways that's the creativity you have to have. And I, I smell fear. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But it's

not the fear of not making money. It's the fear of asking, How do I I'm so humble here, you know, I don't want you to get pissed off because it comes out of the podcasters portion. Now, man, be upfront, just shit is great. But I think a lot of developers don't want to annoy their users with pop ups and asks and that kind of thing. Because it's become sort of like, is because become looked down upon to to be that way. But at the same time, but I think it's been part of that is

that it's never been done. And and it's not been honest. So there's always been, you know, historically within like Apple's ecosystem, it's a rate our app and it would pop up right at the worst time, it would be annoying to your user. And it but it was all this sort of really roundabout gamification of trying to get you to rate the app. So that that would be you know, boost their presence more. It's like, I don't want to play your game sort of thing. Whereas just coming out and asking and

saying, Hey, would you mind donating? Cuz we need money? Well, I mean, that's just honest. I agree with you. And but I'm not talking about pop ups and ticklers and reminders. That's bullshit. Now, you get the app high set up your wallet. Hey, this takes time I give 1% to podcast index, I gave 1% to Elon pay, who works the wallets? 3%.

Would you like to add that on top of everything? If not, I'm gonna put this little button next to the boost button, which allows you to give me something when you feel it's appropriate. I mean, that's just one idea. Right? But that's not you don't need pop ups and ticklers and ads and banners or anything like that. That is in fact, the old shitty model that I think most people you know, they deal with it and then eventually they might wind up paying 295 a month but again, it's like even you

Dave have complained. How come I can't give you 295 a month to some apps. I've heard usually this yellow. Let me give you a perfect example of what I did this week. In my night, this week, I've been working on getting my cron job boosts set up So I have a script that will directly send from ln CLI with, with the appropriate TLV records and everything. So I just a building this, this script where I can just put in a podcast on the command line, a podcast ID,

a feed ID, and then a message and an amount. And it will pull all the data pulled the podcast, value blog, it will go through all that is where I can just boost a show directly out of the API from the command line. And, and then I'll put it in a cron job. I think we did we, I think we did develop that system on this very show the whole idea of a man line forced in a cron job, I love that you did that I needed to now.

Okay, well, I'll give you the script. When I'm done. I'll open source and of course, like everything, but the, the thing, the reason I did that was, it started it started with with two podcasts. And then when my son had his accident, and in my podcast listening went way down for a while, because I mean, I'm like, uh, you know, I'm like an hour a day, podcast listener easily. And the when, when I started really struggling to find enough time to listen, I started to feel guilty, because

like one, one show in particular causality by John cIgi. I love that show. It's one of my favorite podcasts. But he doesn't post very often, he only posts a new show, sometimes once a month or less, or even less, because the nature of these shows is it takes tons of time to do research. I mean, it's just so research heavy. So it's understandable that it takes a long time. But I don't want to have to wait to it's not about the money necessarily. It's about I want him to see the

boosts come in to motivate him to keep going. And I want him I want those to come in on a more regular basis. And so I went and looked at the Patreon and I was like, okay, he's got different levels of support here. He's got like, a $5 $10 $20 a month, $50 a month. And then I start back me back figuring Okay, how much is that in SATs? And so I'm like, Okay, I want to be a silver level producer, which is one of his Patreon level only silver level producer, I converted that into SAS, then

divided it up into four weeks. And I'm like, Okay, I'm going to send him that much each week in order to be a silver level producer. But I'm going to do it more frequently than once a once per show or once per month. That way he sees he gets the the feedback as a podcaster. And he's like, oh, you know, cool. It keeps him motivated to keep going with the show. So then I extrapolate that out into other shows like another one is it for different reasons. And other ones everything everywhere daily

by Gary aren't, I want to send him. I love every one of his episodes, and I boost them every time I listen to him. But he has so much content I can't consume at all, because he's a daily podcast. So they're, again, a fault of I'm going to fall back to the cronjob boost and boost him on a regular basis. That way I can make sure that I'm not losing track. And I'm giving him a predictable amount of money. So think some of these, some of these models.

We haven't even started to explore Dave, this is something that any app could provide. I mean, there's all kinds of things to consider. But any app can say, Hey, would you know right next to the boost button, would you like to send this podcast, X amount per week, per month or whatever, you know, automatically? Stuff like that? I would love that. Yeah, I would love that. And I think Alex is exactly what I was trying to get to is that notion that we haven't,

we haven't even explored it. We haven't explored it. And that's also a value for value. It's not real time streaming sexy as shit. But okay, you know, we want to do that we do that. what Alex said something the other day. He said I don't think podcasters have. I don't think podcasters fully understand open source yet. I think he's right at this. It's very, it's very new to the podcast world. And and I'm not saying there's never been open source.

point about this to your right. Yeah, that's yeah, I'm not saying that. There's never been it. But the really podcasting as an industry, you know, whatever that means, has been dominated by proprietary closed systems. Very. It went that way early. And it's been that way ever since greed. It's a bringing

open source. Bringing open source and free software, ethos and values into the podcast ecosystem is something that they're not used to and I think it's there's a there's a learning curve that has to happen. And from the development standpoint as well, I mean, heli pad, which I know you just did an open update, and you're working on, you know that next version, that thing is open source. It's screaming for features, I mean, just screaming, and that what I'm seeing is, you know, poor James

Cridland is trying to get in there and make stuff cool. We have real developers hovering around who could make the heli pad, like a Swiss Army knife of podcasting back end. I mean, it's unbelievable. I, I want charts, I want stats, I want graphs, I want timelines, I want to be able to click on it and heavy pad, oh, here's a boost. What moment in the show was that boosted all of this stuff? That's all there. There's no culture around creating podcasting apps that way in the

open source, or both? There's no open source culture in podcasting, that way that people are saying, Oh, shit, let me and also because most developers may not be podcasters. You know, they don't know what podcasters want. You You now understand that in there's there's a there's this. You know, there's always been like, there's been some podcast apps like Katy ease AB casts and things like that. And there's been like, podcasts

generator, there's been the sort of one off projects. But the idea Yeah, but you're exactly what you're saying the idea that somebody did, you would have open source across the entire stack of things. And it's sort of like, you're turning it into an open source sort of world. That is just something that I don't think anybody has, that it's new, new, let's just say heli pad could deliver more exciting, meaningful analytics to podcasters than anything Spotify has. momentarily. Yeah,

it really, really could. It's exciting from a programming standpoint, with human interaction, human data that is different because of human interaction. It's fantastic stuff there. Yeah. And then once you put that stuff out into like, fucking what is that? Is that is that react? Do you do that and react? Yeah, I'll just go do that myself sick and tired of waiting for developers?

The day I do react will be the day that Mitch down, he cries and it was curious, as Steven B put this into into sovereign feeds, man, you know, there is there it is. Spencer, where they were talking about this on April craft because they want features and heli pad. And Spencer was mentioning that it's difficult because he doesn't know the code base, because I think part of it's in Rust, the whole thing's in Rust you Okay, so he said that part of it is he would love

to get in there. But he is a front end developer. So one of the issues with open source is, if you don't know the language that libraries written in, now, you've got this whole nother thing of learning that language if you want to contribute to it, which is why they were talking about, okay, how can we incentivize people know the language to show interest in developing it? Because maybe Dred Scott, who he's got money to give to everyone, but may not have the time or the coding

knowledge. So how could he incentivize someone to develop this thing? Because he can't do it himself? Yeah, I've got well, I've got an idea that that I would like to discuss. Okay, one moment. Board Member Dave Jones has the talking stick. point of personal privilege. I would like to, I would like for us as a board to consider, oh, here, here we go. This is when someone says that this okay, bullshit coming. All right. What do you want us to consider as a board? Okay.

Anytime somebody says as a board, it means I want you all to do all the work and I'm just going to come up with the idea. Yes. No, no, for real, though. What I think at some point, maybe we do a podcasting 2.0 hackathon. I think this is a I think this is a legit idea. Like, and so we put out a good idea and about have some kind of bounty. And bounty implies that we have a certain thing we're wanting to develop. But this is more like a hackathon. It's like we put out a prize let's just

say it's 3 million sets. And you say okay, there's 3 million sets up for grabs the top like and then everybody who wants to participate go and develop something super cool. That has a podcast at least one podcasting 2.0 feature to it. And that can be either lightning related or podcasting related or all of the above and no rules. And then we and then when the when the when the hackathon closes, it could go for like, you know, three

months or something like that. And then when it closes, we check out all the projects and and do some press Is this okay, two questions. One, okay. Hackathons, aren't they supposed to be 48 hours? A lot of coffee and pizza? What the hell is this three months bull crap. Well, when somebody comes in like, with us thinking the extra time allotted because people may want to get in on this that don't, it takes some time to get up and running in the podcast

world. Maybe they're not. There hasn't been any podcasting hackathons to my knowledge. So we may have people coming in from the from the Bitcoin world that don't know crap about podcasting. And so we're gonna, we're gonna call that's what I like about it. A podcasting 2.0 hackathon. I'll go, I'll go get the prize money. I'll get something bigger than 3 million SATs. Okay. Yeah, I'll see if we can in. It'll probably be anonymous though. Right? Why shouldn't this shouldn't the prize being SATs?

That's got to be in SATs? Yeah, of course. But it should be it should be like 10 million or something. You know, something's as I said, Knowing hackers if you give them three months, the last two days will be 95. I would like it to be a little shorter than the house calling me go away and maybe what maybe a month isn't the timeline to be determined. Are we are we the jury?

The show is the jury at the board meeting is the jury sketchy okay yes yeah, no. I don't want I don't want people to get mad at us if we say well this is what we think is the winner or do we have multiple well we can work it out. Great idea board is the board meeting is as a whole not just the two of us will bring in some though. Bring an expert will bring Steven B and bring bring some experts in. Oh, man, guys, have you guys been on Instructables, Instructables?

Yes. The website that shows you you can basically say I'm going to show you how to make a water bottle rocket and then you know, yeah, yeah. And then you show that step by step. They have tons of contest on it, they have woodworking contest or concrete contest or turning trash into treasure contest. And basically everybody submits their instructable and then you may have very similar things but they pick the grand prize winner

and a second place and third place. And now we've got several projects that may be similar but now you've also got in this ecosystem, different options for different people because maybe someone doesn't like Halle pad maybe they want a different thing. And just like we have different podcast apps, why can't we have different booster gram display apps and we're gonna do a really big I don't know squad cast, zoom or

something. And we'll just keep we'll just keep streaming live and checking in with with each development team 24 724 hours a day stream? Yeah, exactly. No, I liked it. I liked the idea of throwing, taking all the projects, put them together in a repo and then throwing it out there to to the to the community to say okay, now everybody vote or something. We should get podcast creators involved in this. Yeah, yeah.

That's the piece that's that's always missing. Well, I know what I want for Christmas. Maybe we throw it over to the Jupiter Branca to Chris Fisher and his There you go. Oh, there you go. There podcasters in there and they do on they understand. I don't know if they're coders necessarily. Maybe I'll ping up. I'll ping Chris and see what he see what he's taking on. Maybe we can put something together. Really fun. And Deb's over at Spotify and Apple you're welcome to everyone's

welcome to come in. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no yen, which by the way is the escape hatch for Spotify. And Mr. Eck? Podcasting 2.0 Go forward, go go deep, baby. Go all the way balls to the wall, in your walls, and everybody's welcome. Everybody's welcome. Go forward, boom. You know, we'll cut you in you take how many whatever split you want. Do whatever you want.

I won't promote you if you take it from my cut, but okay. So I want to congratulate comics for blogger for being the first space booster was that the one that was the one Yeah, I we had spectrum go down here and I just got my star link and so my node was down for a few hours. I didn't even realize it because I was messing around with the star link which worked fine. And then comics your blogger pops up. I have all green Bhagwan has not got this, how it is how he talks usually

when he's talking to me. And so which means Oh, something a notice failing and of course and I I'm maintainer of the liquid, Chief liquidity officer, clo clo and I was like, oh, okay, oh, my note is down crap. Okay. So I hook it up to the to the Wi Fi for the Starlink and he boosted again and it came through. Now it takes a little longer as we discussed earlier when he's doing tour and all kinds of other stuff. Oberstar link, but it worked. So that was the first official space boost.

That's cool. Hey, did you guys know that? This Thursday the seventh is when the first booster gram was sent? No, I didn't know that who sent the first grams are still less than a year old who sent the first booster gram. I sent it to Dave because back when Oh, that's right jar. Yes. Yeah, they were called. It's called a message boost. And then we were trying to figure out whose name was payment messages or a message boost. Oh, how far we've come in such a short

amount of time. We've granted that a year Can you believe that? Congratulations to match on the player in bed for pod verse. I just saw that. I want to make sure I promote that because I love those things. I love those little widgets you can put on your page and we'll be using that. What was that the July 7, he said was the anniversary of the first boost? Yeah, you're going back into the database. Yeah, I was gonna see if I can find it. Here's what I'm gonna

do. I'm gonna find it. I'm going to turn it into an NST Yeah, not you're talking. I'm gonna do a couple of our if you guys don't mind, I just think a couple of the live boosters that we've had throughout your show people who've probably heard the sound popping through those that are that have a message. Tim apple 10,000 SATs Happy Fourth of July weekend. Thank you Tim. Mike Newman. There he is. 100,001 Satoshis. And his booster gram this picture of JCD at Podcast Movement make this

happen. Yeah. I'd love to That'll be the day Yeah, right. I can't get them on the plane. Blueberry 3333 h three h three. Hey, he described in their own words and seven seconds. Oh, he has some. Here's a link to a sound file. Okay, why not? Why not go boys risky. Send me send me a dot exe man. Don't be a pussy. A VB scripts. Yeah, that's VB script homeless. Let's see what do you sent in? Hold on a second. I'll save this. It's risky because you don't know what it could be. But we'll find

out. He's like this whole governmental body was scientists and shit. They just tell us what to do. You don't have to think about it. Okay, completely uncompressed incomprehensible for the show. No, no, appreciate it. 2222 from Macintosh go podcasting. And there we have another 101,000 100,001 Satoshis from Nike Mike Newman bringing his total today to 200,002 SATs we roll that out for him Do we I think we roll it out for him don't

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Sakala 20 is bleh on am Paula is boosted gram live boosting is lit boost like immediate people big thanks for the team PC two Oh from an apprentice level podcasts are out here Special thanks to Steven B. For his fearless running with sovereign feed says there's gold podcast podcast Say amen to that. Thanks Mike. Mike Mike is not exact he's not full like three will motion on the in the in the Impala like you know like Peter. But he's got he's got curved feelers. He's got the

he's got a little shiny bumper. He sees these Jason it up. Yeah, definitely. Another 20 to 22 Row ducks from blueberry. We got Carolyn, I'm sorry. And blueberry said insert boost here. Okay. Carolyn 7777 striper boost. I saw I saw some live music last weekend for the first time in years now the musician was just singing and playing guitar next to him was a jar that said tips. And of course, all I could think of were SATs could live music 2.0 be a thing. Happy Independence Day from

Scandinavia. Happy Canada Day. Yes, of course. Of course. I think that's I think that's exactly where everyone needs to go. If you want to ask she's got a QR code on a piece of paper in the tip jar. There you go. There's an idea, a lightning invoice. I wanted to work on an app where the QR code is up on the screen behind the band. And they should just scan that from your phone. So instead of having your lighter up, you got your phone and then you're streaming. Oh, that's cool. Nice. I like that.

No, it's a cool idea. So then make the app when you scan the QR code, make the payments and it flashes the flashlight and turns the screen all kinds of colors. Oh yeah. And your booster grams show? Yeah, now you're talking when the audience can read it. Another way you can help the band develop the place the next song whoever like whatever song gets the most votes. Just the next one the band plays. I've never been a fan of those things. In a live situation.

It's mostly because most bands can't play all of their songs. There you go. Dude, I can't play that order and I was like, I gotta change guitars. I bet they practice the set as as it's going to be in the show. Oh for sure. 100% Yeah, like comedians, it looks like they're off the cuff but it's all scripted. What do you think I'm we're reading a script here. I mean 42,000 SATs from Boober a scissor lift he says will scissor you lift? There you go. That's the one just came in as we were talking.

Oh, hello. 100,001 Satoshis from Dara no. Whoa, near and I podcast therefore I am another VIG for unrelenting planet rage random thoughts grumpy old Ben's on the rock'n'roll pre show. Yeah, I talk a lot. Thank you for your courage. And he and I think they're all 2.0 he you know the rock'n'roll pre show is that he solicits booster grams and doesn't live on the air during the show. I mean, this is this is a real thing we got going on here. That he's fully live every every time before the show.

On Thursdays Yep. Yep. We got Are you done? Are you done? Yeah, that was alive. I guess. Yeah. We got some papers we get Oscar and the boys at fountain $200 Whoa. Thank you. But it's uh, thank you guys. Yeah, we appreciate that very much. That's a that's a subscription. They do that monthly. I love it very much. Appreciate. Thank you very much. We got a $75 single one time donation from Boston venture studio. I don't know who that is. And there was no note that

we're we appreciate it. Thank you very much. Boston venture studio wonder if that name rings a bell. Maybe our buddy Michael. Will used to be in Boston? Man, I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. That's it doesn't matter. We love you no matter what. It's like inky tail. That's the front. That's the front organization for what was it called Boston. For Boston. Boston venture studio. Yes. spook spook out. Bradley chambers. He is did a new subscription for $5 a month and

we thank you, Bradley. Appreciate that. We also Bradley, you know, he wrote an article about us and about podcasting. 2.0 and 95. Mac. Yeah, that's that's that was a great article. Really appreciate it. Yeah, for sure thing it really, you know, and he caught he put up and I think it's important for nine to five Mac to say, Hey, Apple, you should pay attention to this. Yeah, it made a lot of sense. And he and I really appreciated the way he went about it. He he didn't pre write an article,

like and then ask for our comment. Yeah, he he asked for information up front and then and communicated with us and then wrote an article. You know, with that in mind, it's I don't know. It was just a good experience. Yeah. Yes. As journalism goes, That was a very good experience. Yes. Yes. It's always good to have the activist on your side of the camp. We've got that's Pay Pal. We got some histograms.

All right. Posties let's go everybody. Hey Carolyn 3333 sets through fountain he says looking out at the lake listening to podcasting. 2.0 booths is your lake Lake booth looking at the lake right now. That would be nice. Net Ned 3333 through fountain and he just says thanks. You're welcome. Thank you. How you doing booster. Roy Roche on sale 54,321 cents nicely breeze? And he says trust the free market. Adam. Yes. I recall reading that somewhere. I saw that comment.

We know when I saw that came in is when I sent you a note I said dude, are you getting the the 2.0 booster grams at home on your umbrella? You like no tall man. You gotta have these. I put the sage stay safe node. Stay safe in the in the splits. And that is not your name. Your notes called stay safe. Yeah, yes. Right. And have you been watching on helipad? I have been. I've I've been. I've been noticing. Mostly how long it takes hell a pad to open and I don't know why.

It's that. That first open? It takes a long time. Well, you know, when you start getting a lot of SATs, it slows down. Yeah. Well, maybe lnd Point. Point 15 will fix all that for everybody. It'll be great because it's just gonna shrink the database. Terrifying. Oscar marry 15 hasn't sat through fountain of course. Very nice. Thank you very many. And we have we have a lot at least booster clubs here that didn't mention our discussion from last week. Obviously, it was a bit a

lot of people had thoughts about that. So, Oscar says for non premium users fountain as a 5% fee on top of the splits, we do this to preserve the numerology of the boosts. So if you send 1000 Set 100 sets 100 sets will go to whatever is in the splits and then we add an extra five sets for the fee that is shown in the transaction history as visually distinct from the splits along with a prompt to premium God casters using our podcast or wallet, we also charge a one to 4% fee, which

will appear in the split as it's on the podcaster side. Excellent transaction that's transparent and nice new and I would still say Oscar consider opening that up letting people add more to your fee. Yeah, 100% Yeah, for sure. Let them let them add whatever they want. Maybe a fixed amount instead of a percentage, whatever, whatever you want to add a button with it with a monthly subscription. There's a million things that can be done, but I really liked that. That sounds pretty fair to me.

That's Dave Jones. Life lesson or life motto number 36. Never stop people from giving you more money. Yes. 55,555 says To cast a magic boost regarding fees and boosting. I think the numerology is extremely important and might be getting lost somewhere for some podcasters. For instance, when I listened to the everything everywhere daily podcast, the boost amounts their reading are clearly after the fees, not the originally boosted amounts. Sure what needs to be fixed here?

Well, it depends on what they're using. What are they using to get those amounts because the TLV record Shen's sends the total sets, that's what helipad does. So even though we get we do not receive 100,001 Satoshis that's the number what goes into the wallet is different than what's displayed. So I wonder what they're using as as a booster Graham reader. Okay, he says, service is hella patches, full amount, Satoshi stream nothing does not. Ah, so maybe Satoshi stream these Penny memo

memo Satoshi stream? Yep. Let's see hard hat. Sorry. Sin is 22,222 long row of ducks the curio caster? Yes. I happen to know the developer of curio caster personally. Yeah, he's a good guy. He is He's great. He's all right. He's a Texan. We like him. He's breakfast for lunch. So it's even he's top notch fella fried eggs and bacon. defending myself, I have no problem paying for apps. And I do pay for apps. My main issue is fees hiding under a value for value umbrella, when they aren't

really value for value. The app can make their own value for value pitch to the users. How much how much do you want our cut to be kind of thing? If the fees are set by the app? How is that value for value? That's my issue. That's a good point. I think that's exactly what I'm saying. He's saying exactly what I'm saying. He says if you will and I'm adding to that. Fear not

my developing friends. When you ask thou shall be rewarded with many trinkets of goodness ancient proverb it is an ancient podcasting proverb and it just works I can't explain it it evens out. And Dave Have I not told you this and have you not seen this come true in the past two years? Yeah, for sure. Okay, I want a little more like oh yeah, you know, really I was skeptical and then my eyes have been opened my eyes I was I was knocked off my horse by the light.

Okay, good. That at least we're clear on that. BK H MTV Okay, BK GMTV through fountain and he said he said his four for 20 sets haha yeah, he says 5 million sets boost holy. Exactly. was a fire and a face. I've got my emoticons working now. And you know, I've been trying to balance our Ellen pay channel, which is really difficult because we have like seven and a half million SATs on our side. And it was a two and a half million on on the incoming. So if someone wants to do a pay

to our booster wouldn't even work necessarily. We have lots of other incoming liquidity but I don't know if an amp if an amp payment would work or not. It was total like you're just like throwing a message in a bottle into the ocean and hoping somebody comes to rescue you Yeah, I mean, we have all the liquidity incoming but not necessarily through Ellen pay. So I don't know if LNP looks for alternate routes, so they split it up or is it all was straight through one channel?

shirts? Yeah, undefined. Yeah. At dude, send us 10,000 SAS through fountaining. He says apps should be able to charge any fee they want. As long as it's advertised. Dave is correct. In stating that it will be self correcting. There you go. Okay. We don't have to get into the argument again. That's fine. No, no, I don't want to get into I don't want to I'm sorry. I think I think I've made I've beaten the horse into a pulp. No, I think that it's a learning process. Yeah. There's a lot of

stuff. This is all very, very new. I mean, it's one thing to say apps. It's one thing to say apps shouldn't be sold for a specific price. It's another thing to say. Okay. Yeah, but what does that look like? They go. Right. Sure. Sure. And that is what what we are trying to figure out and I am, I don't want to, I don't want to act as if I don't want people to, to hear this as if, as if I am advocating for necessarily for

one specific thing. I just speaking for myself, personally, I'm trying to advocate like, I just learned something a while ago, this, this idea Harv had his idea that they should that the app should make a pitch and then let us have like a slider or something to do your own percentage. Yeah. I never thought about it that way. Like maybe I should have thought about it that way. Maybe you've explained it in ways and other people have explained it. And I've been sick headed and missed

it. Yes. But some? Yes. Okay. No, no, but I readily admitting it. No, but I'm, I'm with you. And here's here's I tried to explain that. Here's the part I messed up. I never considered how the Ask works for a developer. Yeah, that was that was Yeah. And so and it just dawned on me in this past week, like, oh, okay, of course, you

know, developers. First of all, you're beaten down and you've been abused by Silicon Valley into 99 cents or do some ads or whatever, you've been browbeaten, you really have very little chance of success. Where's the value for value model for it? I'm sure of it. Every bone in my body says, you know, that's content to you know, it's just packaged differently. And when you ask someone and explain which you have to do in podcasting, to they will step to step up to the

plate. The question is, how does that manifest itself in in software, how does that work? And how do you how do you without, you know, falling into the traps of ticklers and pop ups and fold overs and whatever? You know, so and how do you make that because I guarantee you just like a small podcast audience can support one podcast. It works you know, there's Look at this. This is this podcast is really the conduit to support the entire podcast index.org You're soaking in it, Mabel.

Nobody's gonna get that reference. No, it's not even Mabel. Who was it from Palmolive. I don't remember there's a match, match, match match. You're soaking in it match. It's it's a great problem to work on. I'm very excited about it. I'm comfortable saying that is a model of apps. Being able to do value for value in this way with programmable money has never been done before. Correct. I mean, I can't programmable money that's able to do microtransactions like this.

This has only been around for a couple of years. This is all brand new. Nobody's I mean, there's no way that Steven the you could have known what this market is even supposed to look like. I mean, you have no idea what what to charge how to charge any of this stuff like you just have to stumble through until you find the thing that works.

But what I like about the programmable money is you don't have to have a link to buy me a coffee and then you've got to put in your credit card information and there's all these steps for it. It's just a boost me $1 And it's just click that button and it comes right out of the water. I'm gonna stop you. I'm gonna stop you. Don't say boosts me $1 You're gonna get $1 Okay, I hear what you're saying with the Hey, boost me what what do you think this is worth?

Yeah. In your own words yeah yeah even say you could even do do their stats back to him to say hey you hey just there you go you listened to you used curio caster this this past month for in and listen to 27 hours of podcasts consider given us what do you think? Yeah we know and you boosted this much could you tell you know could you pitch in some for us this much whatever those languages IceCube soup has a script for developers send me your money okay now that's not quite go but script.

Yeah pull that up Karen for the mere mortals podcast 9292 Cheerio Castor. Very nice. Thank you, sir. A nap have heard of. And he says, I love listening to you guys. It's an ethics lesson with real life implications with more value for value solve this, ie the app asking users to pay what they think is fair. I don't run a business and don't know if this can work on larger entities. Any examples you to know of? Yeah, I think we've just gone through all of them.

All of them. Yeah. Yeah. A severe lack of examples is probably the biggest issue. There you go. gasp eland 117 set through fountain and he says so far I've earned 117 says How was the sustainable? Like the fee discussion? I don't want to I don't want a subscription to fountain and like the fees if that are like the fees of that are okay, so far, so good. Well, I'm not sure what. Guess another drug donation. George Orwell gave us 1100 Oh, oh. 1111 that's what that is. Through fountain

he says. Hope how's it going with Robert Jensen. He never talks about podcasting. 2.0 Well, they're up on podcasting. 2.0 I boost regularly. And it's a process you know, he's just he has, because I've been talking to him since the pandemic started when he went value for value, I convinced him to go value for value. He tried to come up with his own version, you know, different different versions of value for value, who's now just starting to

understand he's getting the words. And this is a professional broadcaster, which I think makes it actually much harder for him. So he's just getting his feet wet with with with like, the Dutch Pay Pal system. getting that to work. He's already he already knows he has to go to 2.0 because he'll be he'll be financially D platformed. Pretty soon. Yeah, no, it's and he's, he's not even in the Alex Jones X 22 level. I mean, at all.

You know, he's mild compared to that. Probably more like Megyn Kelly, honestly, from a content perspective and a controversy which she's controversial. I didn't think the or the Dutch that strict. I mean, the Dutch, the Dutch media and government fucking locked down tight, brother. They're steps ahead of us here. Are you kidding me? Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're way ahead of us in that stuff. Oh, yeah. Okay. It's like the UK. You know, they've got language laws now. You can't say on

social media. So that's all coming to podcasting. Anyway. He will. He will eventually be Oh, S T. He will eventually. I haven't heard that one before. That was Kevin Bay 50,000 SATs through fountain aces, baby. Yay. As a user, I would rather control what I pay for the apps, what I pay the apps rather than they take from the podcaster off the top. That's the only way it's transparent apps should inform the user what they're taking as soon as the wallet is set up. That sounds

right. I like that the silver owl sent us oh this is very it's very native American indigenous peoples the silver our son is 16 111 sets. And he says regarding Oh through through breeze. And he says regarding Sloot's donation, they are correct. 53163 does equals 1611 times 33. But when BTC equals 1 million, a set will be one penny not $1. Truth. We're by the way for me. Before we knew it for the software developers who are going to work on their ask

be whereas the following message I was going to support you. I was just deciding how much until you've removed this button change this thing didn't answer my those people have never supported you never will. And they're part of a category of people who are always looking to tell you their excuse for not supporting you. Is there a name for this type of person? Yes. Douchebag. Okay. Have you found the people who complain the most are the ones who don't give any support?

Absolutely. 100% if they're complaining now, someone who is your partner in value for value and loves what you're doing and is supporting you, they're approaching you, you will feel it immediately written DM whatever, like, Oh, this is someone who really appreciates what I'm doing, and wants to work with me. They can still have a complaint about how something functions are whatever, but they will be respectful and you'll know it right away.

Have you guys heard of The Pareto principle or the 8020 principle? What 80% of your money comes from 20% of your customers? Yeah, and 80% of your complaints come from 20% of your customers, that would be the not the 20% that no hoarding, you know, it's more like value for value 4% of your listeners or of your users will be supporting you. And 96% will be complaining. Something like that, lyceum.

And by the way, go ahead. It happens very often that someone will pop up and say, Hey, man, I've been I've been listening to your show using your app, fill in the blank. For five years, I realize I've never given him anything, so I'm making up for it. And people do $2 An episode. It's you'll be amazed every single time when you leave it open they'll come up with their own reasons. Because someone who can can say they have reasons not to the people the percentage of people come up with their own

reasons is really astounding. And it's it's a number it's a message it's a thing it's a suggestion, etc. All right, and rant. Lyceum gave us 1200 61 SATs through fountain he says from my tweet Lyceum para para Rippetoe dose. Adam curry Davis keeping the ducks in the row and podcast index Oregon good shape. I think the marketplace will self regulate itself regarding Fees and Cuts of the pie. I will send you 12 161 SATs see screenshot.

The best premises, Martin Linda Skog Ah, he's from Sweden, I think. Okay, yeah. Do you know what nationality was key? Yeah, I've seen his name pop up on Korean the keeper a couple other things. Yeah. Thanks, Martin. Yeah, and he tweets us a lot on Twitter. You hacked me not? Through fountain gave us 9400 SATs and he says sup dudes. Thank you. Please look for my email. I send it to info at podcast index.org Go podcasting. Podcast. Goodness. I don't know if I get an email from him. Did you get

an email? He's I am curious. The eyes maybe? Oh, wait a minute. What's his name? hack me not. Is his internet handle. hack me not? Yes. His email is very long. But he's, yeah, I mean, oh, here's a one choice line the idea of charging a fee on Satoshis donated or streamed is app suicide in my opinion. It's emboldened app suicide as they're competing with a free alternative Cash App. Okay. Oh, yeah, I did get this I wonder why I lost this email.

I have the email but it's very so he has he has a lot of different suggestions. You know what I would appreciate hack me not repost whatever you want of this on a no agenda social. At no agenda, podcast index dot socialists. It's just a little too long to read through on the show. But you have some good points. And I think it would be good for the conversation. And in general, in general, people on podcasts index on social. I'm

not a big fan of DMS. If you have an opinion, I think you should say it publicly. Yet, the only time I like DMS or when something is potentially like sometimes somebody will DM me and say, Hey, if you need some help with with such and such I'm free this day. It's just stuff that's like personal, personal scheduling personal nation that kind of stuff. Yeah,

exactly. But if it's general commentary, don't yet don't DM that everybody needs to see and be able to comment on hanging up by followed up with another 9400 Sassy so here's a second 90 407 Boost sent with the found premium. Can you tell me the difference in the actual amount received between this and my first boost? Yeah, Oh, I can let you know I'm gonna set this aside now. And I'll do that after the fact. If you will get on podcasts indexes social and

ping me there. I will. I will look it up for you. Joel Wu says 333 SATs through fountain and then he says, What about a customized split option? Keep the current splits as default but allow people to adjust as they see fit. Say that again? What about a customized split option? Keep the current splits as default but allow people to adjust as they see fit. And that's been done before. And I think most of the developers have taken that out. Yeah. But you still get a Fauci boost.

Boost. Sir beat 1000 sets through cast dramatic cases, hey, it's not your money to spend or split. It's our experience. That total experience is built up from all the things content, app and access. All we need is a means to send and spread the value we experience. Any other scenarios will feel like a subscription or some other thing we want to get away from if app builders or whoever want a predictable subscription like experience, then they should offer just

that. But let them make a pay per tick scheme in their app. Don't just stand there boost. Makes sense? Yep. All the options are being explored. Cast peatland again, yeah, 3690 SAS and he says, Thanks. Well, thank you. Cass. You're welcome. Oh, gosh. I'm going to try this name again. Can you is that Tanisha? Yeah, can you can you can you? Can you can Isa 500 SATs through fountain needs his first boost from the fountain app. Thank you. First boost Kenny. Or

whatever? I sound very Hebrew when I say that. Yeah. Well, the Dutch and what is the word? I'm looking for? Yiddish? Very close to each other. Can you hear that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I wonder how that works. Historically. Dude, Carla, a lot of complicated in the in the well, that were up until 1945. And then we lost them all. I don't know where they went. And we had a lot of them. We got a lot left with numbers on their arms. You know? Yeah. Well,

yeah. I grew up in that. Man. You you grew up in a whole different perspective. When your your friend's grandmother has numbers tattooed on her arm, you think a little differently about humans? So there was a big Jewish population before the war? Yes. Okay. Yes. Is that who is that go back to the founding of the lowlands? Oh, goodness. I couldn't answer that with any accuracy. I really? I really don't know. I don't know. Well, we got it. We got plenty of Jewish listeners that let us

know. Pirate hodl sent us 3333 sets to fountain nice as well. I agree. That is good for the app fee to be added on top of the boost. You'd have to admit in this world of shit coins and scams, that some apps will exist that pass that cost on to the Creator. Perhaps hella pad could flag boosts where the TLV is very with a TLV versus actual mountain mismatches? That's a pretty interesting idea. In an extreme case of creator retaliation, you could refuse to read such boosts on the air.

Yeah, well, I think we're solving this already. I mean, I'm not worried about that. Now. I think we've got enough of the I mean, I'm not worried about it. Because the first and I think fountain is seeing some of that success. Now they have other financial resources that are helping them get there. But there's software that I still use today that I've been using for 15 years. And every year I send a donation you know, it's like people will send you more than anything you in your

wildest dreams. If you leave it open ended and ask Oh no. Yeah, that doesn't need doesn't need any commentary from me. I think I think that yeah, yeah, Mexico says, Pirate hello again. 3333. And he says instead of a normal key send key. Could you could you add app placeholder as one of the splits? That way the Creator signals a fee they're willing to pay the app then insert their own key on the fly was an interesting idea.

Yeah, I thought of something like that as well. But I also feel that's that's not for the I mean, if I want to give something to an app, I'll put them in my split. Yeah, and that's what that's what we do with curio caster, like put them in the split because sovereign feeds you know, whatever. Boom, boom, boom, just put stuff in there. Nomad Joe sent us 1000 SATs through fountaining says show fees on new podcast Apps page. Also an interesting idea. We

could put that in at To the JSON. There you go block. In that way when people add themselves it's pull request on the site. It could go in there too, but I would prefer people try an app out and not base it on cost. Because you know, you try an app out. It's like, oh, well, you know, that's worth more I don't know, man. Yeah. A lot of good a lot of good comments here. Love it,

love. Yeah, yeah, this is this is the first really I mean, this is real content that's coming in here on these booster grams. More it's from Alby Oh, hey. 2100 SATs through pod verse and he says what do you think of a leaderboard for received value for value payments? Yeah, that that's something I would love to do all in for this show. Yeah, all in Yeah. And I would love to have a leaderboard. Why not give

me a leaderboard from curio caster for my SATs? This is as an extra service I'd put you in yet another split for that. What do you mean by that? Like, give me a leaderboard for all for pot for my podcasts, maybe one maybe all of them combined the leaderboard of people who supported those the most in the app next to my podcast. Okay, so but that would just be the people using curio caster to support no right and correct Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I can add that to help add to this thing James was one

that the other day too that's cool. I like that. Mister Mister did use 330 Did you say you can add that tailpipe? No, I said I can add that to Hello, Pat. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm at 1000 miles an hour. Okay. Mr. Mr. Sin is 333 SAS who found it and he says defrag me my first boost of all time many more to go Mr. Mr. Welcome to the club. defragmented you our first boost party. See a Chris You know, send us 10,000 SATs through fountain and he says the discussion of ways to support

podcasting 2.0 apps got me thinking. What are your thoughts on the podcast index supporting or facilitating feature bounties? We just talked about that. Hey, users list the feature right now millennial girl. Users list the features they would like to see in podcasting two point out apps and pledge and amount of sets. They will contribute when that feature gets added. This would let apps know which features users want most and support development as

it features I'm I'm game somebody write it. Somebody that develop it. Let's do it. Cool. McCormick one. sent us Puck is Eve 2222 Road ducks through fountain. He says podcasting 2.0 is like Back to the Future when George McFly punches Biff in the face changing the future for the better. We are McFly. Go podcast go podcast. Sir Spencer, from the bulls with buds. Send us 54,321 Sam. Nice boost. Thanks, man. He says counting down to the Steven Bell

appearance. He says PS what's the total set count requirement for one of those 60 new T shirts. This gets me to the 200k so far from fountain not counting Brees and curio caster booths always spreading the good word of podcasting. 2.0 What is it? What is the current price? I think it's was at 100 and $125. Yeah, so what about 300? Something like that? Is that what that is? No. No, it's more I can't do math during the show and I'm brain hurts. Yeah. I think it's more like 7000 isms

that the show comes to a halt. It really does. Yeah, sorry about that. Kill 100 1000s Bow Bow Bow. 20 bucks now. 100,000 is 20 bucks. Yeah. Brent now, is that right? Yeah, I guess I guess you're right. 20 So yeah, okay, so 60 566 150 650,000 Satoshis 656 5656. The Comic Strip blogger the delimiter yay. 15,033 sets. He says how he podcasting 2.0 team. Do you know that Russian missile strikes on civilian targets in Ukraine like apartment buildings and shopping malls still continue? Anyways,

please enter your web browser. Please enter into your web browser or any podcast app. Ai dot cookie. To listen to British voice of Gregory William Forsythe Forman from Kent talking about latest AI news yo yo who wasn't on the mastodon that podcasting next on social that asks you know, like, I want to put some money towards marketing I said yeah this is a proven strategy you boost all these different shows and people know about your stuff he says

are you kidding me? Are you saying it's a joke said no look at comics or Blogger he does it every week. But on a whole bunch of different shows. My wife if I say hey if you want to know about artificial artificial intelligence she say AI dot cooking not that she would listen to it but she does she would know where to go. Yeah. And he brings in his politics too. You can feel free I mean, love it boosters with the with everything you got

nothing's off limits. Good. No. Was that the last one to eliminate those last night last week got some monthlies now while there was one live boosted came in while we were talking 26,260 from sup Yo sup at work but hopped up on a LIVE TAG to boost nice All right, yeah. What's your sup Yo sup? We get some monthlies through the pay pals. We get Chad Farrow 20 $20.22 Thank you Chad. Chad. Scott, Scott Jalbert $12 Thank you. Scott Lowe Retta Vandenberg $10 Pedro gun Cal has $5 Aaron

Renaud $5. dribs got the original end of podcasting. $15 Jeff Miller $20 Thank you, Jeff. Michael Kimmerer 533 $5.33 Leslie mill nosey Martin $2. And Stu coats the evil $6.66. That's it. That's it. eautiful beautiful. Thank you all very much. Thank you for supporting us value for value. I think we've explained it by now. But the whole project runs open. And it's open to your interpretation. If you appreciate what's going on here because you like the development you want to support podcasting.

You hate the mainstream media. That's possible. You can do you can hate boost. You can hate support. It's okay here. Hate boosting is my favorite thing to do. By the way. I do 50,000 sat hate boosts to crow Cridland. Yeah, all the time. And love it. Want to make sure he didn't get his attention? They'll do it. Go to podcast index.org. Down at the bottom you can see a big red donate button. Actually, I did not check the tally coin to see if anyone came in through a plain old plain old Bitcoin

donation. But from there, you can get to our Pay Pal. And you can also Yeah, okay. Actually, you can also donate through lightning, I think right? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Let me just check and see if we didn't miss anything. Because those are typically bigger boosts are bigger support, see, we go visit and the sum total is none. Okay. Of course, everybody. Steven, do you show anywhere? You mentioned a leaderboard on your ad, do you show anywhere? Is that data available already?

To show that, like when people are boosting? You know, I don't want to have it being saved to the database. And honestly, I just looked at it I posted on the index, like who the top boosters were or the or the top podcast. And that's the first time I looked at the data and probably eight months. Okay, yeah, that's think that'd be really gonna be really cool idea. On let me ask you about something else that pod pain. Are you? So are you sending a live pod pain with sovereign

feeds now when when an app goes live? I mean, when a podcast goes live, yeah, they have the ability to push the button because they need to upload the their feed to their server first, since that's the source of truth. So they can after they've done that, come back and press the live feed, which I think is what Adam is doing for no agenda. Yep. Okay, and that. So how are you doing? Then I'm curious about

what the back end looks like. Did did Alex help you is are using a script that he did like a Docker script or something? Yeah, it's a Google Cloud Function that he's got in the GitHub repo. And I have no idea what's going on with it. I just follow his instructions. And it magically works. Love that's, that's who needs more. But so that's C where is that? Is that in the pod pain? Is that the hive writer? Repo maybe? Um, I don't know. Let me see if I could find out and get up real quick.

Because I'd like to point other people to that if it's something that's that they can implement themselves. Yeah, I mean, I think it cost me a penny a month. Using Google Cloud Functions, oh, well, let's see tests. Hive writer. Maybe I thought he had some examples in here. I don't know. We'll find it. If I can find it by the end of the show was maybe stick in the show notes? Yeah, I'll, I'll put it on the social. Okay. All right. Let's go with what else you got? What else you

got coming up? You got your you got? You got Dropbox integration everything Do you have you have anything else on the radar maybe you are used your next step is AI social, social interact or anything social interacts working with? With that I don't know that I'm going to next up is getting the wallet stuff fixed. I've got a few issues were one is Ellen pay, you can send your boost

synchronously or async. The problem was synchronously is if you've heard if you've seen on the social, there's lots of complaints that fountain takes a while for the boost to go through. And that's because you can only send one boost at a time because if the wallets busy processing that it won't process the next one. Yep. You can also send them a sink. And it'll just put it in a queue on Ellen pay servers. But the issue with that is I've had people who are trying to do a live boost. And

LM pay doesn't get to processing it until 12 hours later. Oh, shit. So yes, it was weird. Like I was looking at the logs. And it was the next morning before I saw that the funds had been taken out of the wallet to do processes, though. That's the amazing process. Amazing harm right there. Yeah, when a guy is trying to do a live boost, he's expecting it to be read. And I understand the complaints. Because if it's not read on the show, then it's just like, oh, well, did that boost

go through? Yeah. Because I'm kind of hiding the mess so that when you hit that boost button, it looks like all the stats are taken out of your wallet. But it may be several minutes before everything's actually processed. You mentioned I think you mentioned maybe a week or so ago that you were switching LNP from LNP to lb. Is that right?

Yeah, so I've been working with the lb development team. And they are trying to develop an API so that you can use owl B and connect to that API, so you're not having to use a browser extension. And that way on a mobile device, you can still use Albea because I'd much prefer people be able to use their own wallets and albies got it so that you can tie into your Umbral node or into your, your voltage node, even even on even on a mobile browser.

Yeah, that's how that's supposed to work is you connect all that stuff through Alby and then I can talk to albies. Back in through the API. Oh, cool. Yeah, wallets. I've never wanted to host wallets. But I think the value, the value block is so important and being able to boost and stream that I've been willing to do it until better solutions come along. You're coming? Yeah, that's a good, that's a good thing, because so I'll be a sort of the bridge there. And so you've got your wallet. And then

you've got the app. And so the Alby acts as the interface layer between the offense and like the authentication through the web browser, you're logged in. That's cool. That's a good way to do it. Having an API will be would be great. Cool. Are these are these mysterious? Owl bee guys? I don't know. They're like Germany. Ah, you have all of this makes all the sense now. Hello, Deutschland.

There's another team out there called mash. And they have I want to say it was $6 million dollars of VC money they got and they're doing a similar thing. It's not open source, like Alby is, but I've messed around with their stuff a little bit. And it's already set up that you can hit a boost button in the app. And even in a mobile device, it will open up the interface. But they're not as far along as LB is with the development of that.

Yeah, I would honestly I'd rather really support the lb guys who are open are part of the community already. Yeah. And I love that they've opened up podcaster wallets for people. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. Yeah, let's get the lb guys on the show. Yeah, you guys are

really doing a lot of good stuff for for podcasting. 2.0 Are you working with Moritz over there as you're talking to Oh, yeah, there's been more it's and then Bumi and boom, figured out the other guy's is he's the actual developer. Yeah, yeah. I'll reach out to him. We get we'll get him on the show. I'm sorry. that'll be good. Yeah. So that's the one.

That's the one weak point is on the on the AP side. It's always, so far, it's just been LM fe. And to have another option, I think is a sign of market growth anyways, yeah, we really need Yeah, yeah, for sure. And an LM pays got issues, but I'm so thankful for what Ellen pay has done. Because we, if we didn't have Ellen pay, you could basically use breeze to stream stuff. Almost all the other apps are using Ellen pay, I think, a pod station that

Guillermo is out. He's got a deal where you can tie into your actual node, I think. But yeah, we just we wouldn't have had be as far along with boosting and streaming if it wasn't for LNP Oh, yeah. 100% I do wish that he would lower his model I can't afford $100 A month when when curio caster is bringing in $20 a month. But I think well, that service he provides like, I would totally give him the $20 but I think a lot of these early apps, they see that $100 And he's been very generous. He's

not charging that to any of the podcasting 2.0 apps. But when I see that on his website, there's a lot of people who bristle at that. It's like, Man, I can't afford $100 For this startup idea. Well, he's following Adam Curry's third rule of business. I'll give you the I'll give you all three. Number one, don't run out of money. Number two, don't negotiate against yourself. And number three, if you don't want to do something, raise the price. All right. And so so he's he's signaling to you his

desires. And I can understand where he's coming from. So during this and he seems like he's doing okay with that, with that model. So far, so good, but we would having maturity of more services, more wallets, and you know, the mythical green light on its way. Yeah, next month, a unicorn. Six months? Yeah. I believe it's months ago. No, I didn't. weego Six weeks ago, for sure. Yes. weeks ago, for sure. Yeah. Well, it's yeah, it's come at that. This is what you know,

on the lightning side of things. I always find it interesting to find it humorous to do you, either of us subscribe to the lightning mailing list developer mailing list. Yeah, I don't read it all the time. Sometimes, like, not subscribed. I read everything I read. You read it all. You read it all. You read it all. There's, there's this there's this funny, passive aggressiveness that goes on between the sea lightning people and the lnd people. It's all good.

I'll bet somebody will propose somebody from lnd will propose something. And then the response from some from the CLSC lining person is like, oh, it's interesting that you think that way. You know, considering that you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like totally passive aggressive. Oh, yeah. Slow Motion social media is what this is gonna

sound goodness. Yeah. Anyway, mailing list. It's just the it's just a young, the whole thing, John, it's just gotten Yeah, I feel like we haven't ticked off anything off your list from last week. Dave. The only thing we ticked off of the list was the podcasting. 2.0 hackathon. Down here and everything else is still there. Well, at least we got one off the list. Yeah. Oh, wait, window two cuz I had on here. Anchor is getting the boot. So we did. We did.

Yeah, we did do that. Hey, Steven. Man, I feel kind of guilty and bad that we still haven't connected in in real life. I think what happened is first I think your family got COVID And we got COVID. And then you know, other things happened? Did you have a kid too? No, thankfully, okay, it's enough for me man. But we're definitely gonna hang man we got we have to do that. There's too many people in this area. We should do a larger hang as well. Are you going to Podcast Movement? Steven,

I'm not. And you know what, Mike? Mike Newman was real generous and offered me a room but it just doesn't work with my schedule to be up in Dallas for a few days. It doesn't work with my schedule either believe me? Yeah. Doing shows from hotel rooms no good. Yeah. And honestly the only reason I'd want to go is to meet with the podcasting 2.0 Guys, all that marketing and shaking hands with people. That's a that is not my jam. Like heard heard chef heard.

I can If I can do it, I won't say that I like it, but I can do it. I can make it work for a few days. I'm excited about going and by the way, Dave, I've determined that we're not going to split a room. You know, I think you know, I'm 58 almost like I need my own room your your you need your own room. Okay, but maybe we get an air b&b. Maybe we have to see. I'm like, is there anything available? We'd like we're way too late with this shit, aren't we? Even though we probably about this?

I mean, I'm bringing the tent. I wish I still had the Airstream. That would have been so much fun. I'll put the back of the truck. Yeah, I'm driving. I'm driving. I'm driving mostly because I don't I just don't want the hassle and the headache of the worst. It's not worth I'm not traveling anymore. I'm only traveling on if I can get a direct flight somewhere, which is not usually is not happening. But otherwise Screw it. I'll drive or not go. system is broken. Systems broken. Same

watch for the headlines. Monday, Fourth of July. Traffic airports meltdown, weather, weather and personnel issues. Wet weather, weather. Ah, Stephen brother, thank you so much, man. For all you do. Thank you for being a big part of this really, really is all your all your work is so appreciated, especially sovereign feeds, selfishly again. But I think this has been so important to have this to be able to create feeds with all of the nut job features before they're even fleshed out. Right.

To run with scissors. I start off by saying you are you are the official supplier. Because it's really it's made a huge difference in my life. So thank you again, for all your way. And thanks, guys. This is a this has been a lot of fun. I liked the community that podcasting 2.0 has built up around it. And I really I'm excited to start bringing

musicians into it. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's my big push with sovereign feeds with the drop box is I really want to start seeing value enabled musicians. This way. Oh, yeah. I love that. Well, that's awesome. With your development process, your acumen, you will totally figure it out. Because you adjust that UI and the UX to such a degree that it really draws people into the app. You're really good at that.

For sure. Thanks for the compliment. I always worry that my changes are for the worse. Oh, no. Sometimes they screw up my life incredibly. Okay. That's part of it, man. That's what I love. That's what I love. It's all the bumps and warts that make it all worth it. DAVE Yes, I love you Dave. I love you, Adam. All right, everybody. We'll be back next week with another board meeting. And podcasting 2.0 Have a great weekend for Fourth of July see you everybody bye bye.

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