Episode 90: J and K

podcasting 2.0 for June 17 2020 to Episode 90, it's the J and K. Do we all have our scissors? Are you ready, start running time for the board meeting of podcasting. 2.0 everything happening with Well, of course, podcasting 2.0 the podcast index.org The newest and latest developments in the podcast standards, the namespace and of course, everything we're discussing over at podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here

in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama. He's the postman for your API endpoint ladies and gentlemen, say hello to my friend on the other end, Mr. Dave Jones. So my strategy should have been in 2020, long about long about June of 2020. I should have bought like 455 gallon drums and just filled them to the top with get with gasoline. Oh, yes. It's called the Alabama strategic reserve.

ASR Yes, I should have replenished the ASR at at low prices so that I would not be feeling the pain. What today what is your what is your truck get? What is your mile per gallon on on your classic Ford pickup? It's not bad. No, it's not bad at all. It's where I'm cruising. 15 to 17 miles per gallon 1570 Is that bad? I get 30 in my car. Miss show off. Its fist 15 to 17 modern car you know modern computer controlled injection

and everything. So it's it's ultimately tuned by the fine folks at Mercedes Benz around town. 1570. On the highway, I get a little bit hard, but it's a six cylinder so it's not too bad. Now the one the one that's bad. So we we recently got another we got a 1967 F 100. We we picked that one up off Facebook marketplace. And now that one has a 460 in it in the four barrel. It's like 10 miles to the gallon. You know, I guess spending most of his time sitting on the curb. I got

my e 300. Almost four years three years ago now. And it has all the stylings of the like the AMG kind of subtle but really hot car. But under the under the hood, you know, it's the E it's not the actual AMG. It's a two liter nine speed engine. And I think it's I think it's four cylinder. But the man doesn't speech. But those guys they've tuned that stuff. It's unbelievable. How much power they get out of it. I mean, that's the whole thing now is small small block big,

big turbo. Yeah. Yeah, I'm assuming Yes. No, of course of course. But I think it's the the nine speeds that really does it. I mean, you just pop out. Pew pew pew pew pew fifth. Yeah. Like that's that. So I've rebuilt and rebuilt an automatic transmission before. And it is so much the one I rebuilt was a nanny for four hours and DW says it for transmission rebuilt it in my kitchen. And the way that you pull it apart and all the clutch packs and everything. They're all pretty beefy, decent

size. You know, once you get into like a nine speed 10 Speed. Yeah, I mean, those those clutch, this clutch packs are so small, that in thin that it doesn't take hardly anything to just blow one of those things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the show was lit once again. We've been experimenting for the past couple a couple of weeks with the live item tag the

which contracts the acronym lit. I think now, I did it yesterday on no agenda, although the pod verse signal did not go off, which I presume is the caching issue that is on my end, right. Yeah, that's right. Because what part of this CDN issue Yeah, so I think what happened so pod verse receives the pod ping that the show is lit but it parses the feed can't find it

because of the cache and then gives up is that the idea? Is that what's happening is the feed is always the source of truth Yeah, in apps appropriately as they should they see the pod and a lot of piping come through and then they go and they parse the XML to make sure that it matches you know, instead of some buddy can't just spam a bunch of live tags right or live in then they go matched up so okay, this this thing actually have a live item

and if it does, is it this is the status live, right, if all that matches up, and it all checks out? Denison's notifications, okay, but since yours is cached, it's just it's taking a long time to update. Yeah. Oh, And I honestly, I'm not exactly sure how to fix that. Well, I know Mitch was working on some cache busting URL extensions, which I don't know if I guess it didn't work.

No, it didn't it can't I mean, caching. You could just when it comes to caching, I mean, you, you could say something like, we're not going to look at anything. You could say, we're not going to look at any HTTP headers, we're not going to look at any URL parameters. All we're gonna do is look at just this resource. And the only the so for, for the non technical. It'd be like, https colon slash slash, no agenda stream, or I don't even know what the urls.com/feed.xml So that would

be your fault. That's the file that you're downloading. Right? That's the that's the feed file, then you could you could say, it doesn't matter what the headers are this I'm talking about as the cat. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. You can say I don't care what the what anything else you send me you could put in a question mark some URL parameter on the end of it, or you could send some e Tag headers, or last modified or anything like that,

you could say, as the cache, I'm gonna ignore all that. Right, I'm just gonna give you back the changes when I want you to, which I think is how the CDM s is acting. I think that's what's happening. I don't care what you're doing with your dangling things there. Your question mark dangles, sometimes you don't want people busting the cache, because it's so critical that it not go over bandwidth concerns that you just say, Look, I'm gonna give it to you when I want you to have it.

And you can't tell me anything else. Yeah. I think that's what's happening. And yeah, well, I'm I'm a unique situation. Currently, you're always a unique. But this for podcasting. 2.0 works really well. And that's just send a server clickety. Click boom, it's working. Love it. Yeah. Yeah, we have so weird, the way ours is set is that we're doing it through Cloudflare. With with object storage on the back end. So Cloudflare Cloudflare can obviously handle that load, they

can handle these spikes. Your your CDN is using, I think, a local caching server, and is probably theirs, that's probably self defense, I would have to imagine for that caching server, because it just can't handle that. Well. There's also a propagation issue with my CDN, because it's homebaked. So I upload it to one server, it has to be uploaded to the other three. Now, that takes a little bit of time. Oh, okay. So this is a new information. So you see, there's

like a load balancer in front of it or something? Yeah, well, I get an email that says, Okay, this is what I do. I drop it into my FTP client uploads, and then I wait, and I get an email that says, Okay, this is the resource, and it'll show me all the machines that it was copied to, if there were any errors, it of course, it tells me there's an error right up

front, but there isn't, it tells me the file name. And, and then theoretically, it's good to go. But in practice, it still takes anywhere from because I see it with the hyper capture, when, when I go to do the set up the default chapter mark, which is kind of important because a couple apps out there if you have a link to a chapter json file resource in your RSS feed, but there's nothing there. Then one of the apps was breaking. I can't remember which one it was. There was like actually

crashing, crashing. So I just thought, well, it's just a good idea to have that in there. And I can always put a little message you know, hey, dribs coming, you know, the Bruce Wayne of podcasting. 2.0 will have the chapters ready soon. But but when I go into hyper capture, I have to kind of sit there and refresh for anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before hyper capture can pull it up. Okay, so yeah, it's that that's, that's consistent.

Okay. I'm fine. Like, this is not fun. These scissors are no good. They're not sharp. It's bogus, scissors. Scissors are not happening. Yeah, that's consistent with what we've seen before with your feed. Now, you know what, like back? What was it? We kept? It kept dropping his credit was the initial pod pain. It was when we first rolled out pod ping. Things weren't going through, right, right. webs. That's what it was webs. Because you kept sending things

you're like it's not updating. But it's because the XML is Some wasn't there yet. So what I mean, if it's a propagation issue on the backside, I think it's both. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll figure it out one way or the other the only guy that knows his voice. I have you talked to him? I have not yet. I have two clips I'd like to play at the top of the show. Well, yes, yes. Yes to exemplify what what I feel we're doing with the considering the original mission of podcasting

2.0. I think we're right on track. And here are the two reasons why. One is, of course, we want to protect podcasting and podcasters and protect their freedom of speech, within the legality of of any laws, of course, which we've discussed quite openly here many times. But in general, if you want the x 22 report, hey, yeah. This is central western bank news. So if you want to hear that, then you can get it on a podcast and 2.0

app. As you know, part of this project was the foresight that there's going to be censorship and this censorship is going to be for all kinds of reasons. And in the past two years, we've seen it mainly for medical procedures and medication people have been D platformed. told to shut up told to go away D monetize the YouTube, certainly quite quite active in that regard. And now we are in an energy crisis. energy crisis now, the origins of it, you can debate and that's the point you

should be able to debate and to debate it. But you, most people, I think, have probably seen the means that we briefly had a director or Executive Director of something called the disinformation governance board in the United States. As scary. Still a great title. Yeah, well, believe me this thing didn't go

away. The thing is not gone as a part of Department of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, the Chertoff Group, they're the ones that are mentoring this and that guy, you know, you go look at any of the full body scanners in the airport, that's the guy who put them there. And some whistleblower came forward and said, hey, you know, these guys were ready to operationalize their relationship. And this is apparently where Nina Yang covets comes in. She's good friends with several high up

executives at Twitter, just to name one. And the idea is if there's something going on in on a social network that goes against the government mandate narrative, you know, pick whatever you want, then they will contact the social media companies in the social media companies will then do something about it. That's basically called censorship. But it was all a little bit under the radar. And, you know, this blew

up in everyone's face. Again, it's not gone. But here's our energy secretary, Gina McCarthy, talking about this very topic. And so the challenge is now that we're moving from denial, to actually just trying to, to disengage the public from understanding the values of solar energy, the values of wind energy, the benefits of clean energy, we have to get tighter, we have to get better at communicating. And frankly, the tech companies have to stop allowing specific individuals

over and over again to spread this information. That's what the fossil fuel companies pay for that's what folks who make money out of fossil fuels in don't make money it's been don't care about saving consumers costs. That's what they do. We have to be smarter than that. And we need the tech companies to really jump in. So they have not they've not forgotten about the tech companies who they need to really jump in whether they have

a disinformation governance board or not. Yeah, and the Cavalier ness of which she speaks like like it's just no big deal like it's just it's just spot isn't we need to do it the sciences in the people are too stupid. You don't understand how great solar and wind is. So therefore no discussion. So, yes, I've got a I've got a clip groobie the play? What if the people are stupid? And faced by the horror in the Balkans, President Clinton's representative called Richard Holbrook brought the question

out into the open. Suppose elections are free and fair, he said And those elected are racist fascists, separatists. That is the dilemma an American political scientist could Fareed Zakaria put it more bluntly. The people we are told, he said, are the most important. We are driven by the phrase, the American people are not stupid. But what if they are? So yeah, Fareed Zakaria, the anti constitutionalist, dude from CNN, hey, Phoebe, Camilla. She doesn't see she hears his

dog or she hears Fareed Zakaria. She's like bark bark. Hear me girls. Okay. You're good. I mean, that's, that's the whole The whole point is if if the people are stupid, and the people like stupid people, that's our own stupid mistake to make. That's what America is built on. Yep. And also, it also reveals a way that a way that a certain class of people are thinking about demand out the rest of us. Yes. And it's whatever you do, but don't have any Converse?

Well, I think there's a difference between stupid and dumb. I believe they meant to say the American people are dumb, because people like Fareed Zakaria are stupid. He's not. He's very intelligent, obviously. But he's stupid. And there's a lot of this on display right now a lot of things like Do you not see the complete contradiction that you have? The

statement you're making is you can just turn on the TV. Anyway, the idea that you can't discuss these things, like, you know, and I can see where people get really uptight, over vaccines or mandates, and you know, this, oh, my goodness, yeah. Why is this even a discussion? You know, are we allowed to, I guess, the New York Times has made us allowed to talk about our president and that he clearly is unfit for office, you

know, so, the go ahead has been given for that. But when it comes to any discussion, and this is how it goes, we've, we've seen what happens like, you gotta label click, you're done. You don't surface you're taken off, because you had the audacity to talk about nuclear. Yeah, you know, stuff like that. So I feel that mission is well accomplished, I'm very proud of the work that everybody's done. Of the size of, of the collection of the cleanliness of the data that we have, and the

access to it. And this This is truly, truly revolutionary. What we and I mean it in the real sense of the word revolutionary, is revolution revolutionaries usually don't get money from oil companies. I haven't got my check yet. I did go to the to the to the mailbox before I started the show, just in case but no.

Safety Check. Yeah. Well, I mean, good. You know, Google, we see we see what happens with with censorship anyway, even on a technical level, with the stuff this week of Google censoring the word censoring podcasts with the word lesbian in it, you know, I that's interesting. You bring that up, because, in a rare moment, I played this clip on no agenda.

during pride month, Google podcasts is blocking and hiding some podcast episodes apparently because they use the word lesbian RPG roams apparel and glories during the 13th episode visible everywhere else isn't available on Google podcasts in the US, UK or Australia, even to logged in over 18 users. The podcast creators say there's nothing adult in this episode at all. No, I think I have a different take on this than then James or maybe even you.

I'll tell you mathematics really simple. My take my take is just I told you so. I mean, like, I think I've been saying from the very beginning. Yes. That No. Any any of this when you empower censorship? Yep. And it's going according to your plan, everything is fine, everything's great. But as soon as it swings the other way and goes and now I feel like this is clearly a

mistake. That mistake on their part but the once it starts to swing the other way, you've just get you willingly gave the tools to the people to do the thing that's now going to bite you in the butt. Yeah, my take is somewhat different. It is it is also an I told you so. But I already pre approval of it. You know, I've studied the LGBTQ q ia P k plus community as a narrative since its inception. It started as G L. This is where

the GLA D comes from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance. alliance against anti defamation defamation Yeah, but it's always G L and then we got G lb. Gay Lesbian. bisexual. This goes back a few years, I know I date myself. And then we had a switcheroo. It became LGB. And the lesbians moved to the front of the line. And this was the beginning of the breakup of something that never existed, which is this fallacy and, and I accused all all reporters and journalists

and talking heads of doing this. Just like there is no black and brown community. It's not a community. In fact, those two can be polar up opposite often. There's also no LGBTQI community and to show you that that's true. The there's enormous hate against gay men right now. And in fact, the problem with gay men is their men that they have toxic masculinity certainly, you know, the kind of the beef the beefy gay guys, and they in fact, there's been many articles you can go take a look at it.

There's now on all you have white gay privilege, white male gay privilege. So the gays are being the gay men are being pushed out. Now the lesbians are also problematic, often known as turfs. Because the lesbians are saying, well, a trans woman is not really a woman, you see the problem. So the lesbians are on the way out. And the way this is being done, you see, okay, you cannot have a property, immediate property or a program or this is my opinion, I could be wrong. That does not

recognize all the rainbow people. If it doesn't recognize LGBTQI, at minimum, you can't just do something about else. So yeah, I told you so is right, is for different reasons. I think Google is ultra woke. That's the problem. It's an ultra woke move, not a discriminatory move based against lesbians, per se. So you're saying it's a it's a the word, the word gay and the word lesbian are being those are being ousted? brought out? Yeah, those are being taken out. Indeed. So the only thing you're

allowed to use is the is the acronym LGBT. Okay. And you have to add, yes, it's LGBTQ i plus. That's the official, the official acronym, I believe that is shorting a lot of important people. Yes. There's two b's. That's possible. I never thought about it that way. It struck me every possible because Google's got woke people, you know, and they wouldn't just discriminate. Now could also be a simple mistake. But you're right, the tools are there, the tools get used. So

let's talk about these tools. This next clip is a little bit shorter, even. It's part of a longer conversation, you know, I'll see if I can find the link and put it in the show notes. Many people saw this but I think it was just beautiful. To see that the system we have developed this value for value streaming payment system that we have now incorporated into what do we have? Are there seven apps now that the can do this? thing?

So yeah. So I'm obviously I'm leaving other podcasts and to point us stuff out of it namespace just for, for clarification of us reaching these goals. I'm no I'm sure you saw this is Marc Andreessen of Andreessen Horowitz, big venture capital company. You got it. Okay. You get this clip, almost clipped it. And I know him 1993 I think it was I got an email. I was running mtv.com with a gopher server. And it was, hey, it's Mark. He was at college, Champaign Urbana, Illinois. Hey said I've

got this, this thing. It's a mosaic. It's a browser. And you need to set up an HTTP daemon daemon. And so am I headless son three, I struggled through it got it set up, and it worked. And that was Netscape. And so that's when mtv.com was on the web. Now we fast forward. What is it now? That 40 years? No. 3030 years? 32,003? Yeah, 30 years, a lot. We have podcast in 2.0, which is a, an open group and open project, anybody can

join, anybody can participate. And because of the value for value streaming payment system with the with the value block splits, everybody can and usually does participate in the ecosystem, which was also one of the missions. The idea and this is before this magical thing came up called Web three. Because web three sounds an awful lot like it when I'm hoping and what we're actually seeking at the firm what we're trying very hard to find. I'm hoping for example,

for podcasts. I'm hoping five years from now, there will be these thriving, you know, call it web three podcast environments that will be open and will be you know, it will have this sort of anarchic, uncontrolled kind of element that I think that I think you and I both like, however, will have a higher level of trust and will have a higher level of a monetary incentive an economic incentive. Then the open networks of the past usually dead. And so there's this

there's this third way. And you know, this is still early, but like we're quite optimistic that there might be a new way to build these systems. And I'm excited to see what happens. So it's a little anarchistic. It's a third way. Everybody profits from their own endeavors. It's more distributed. Huh? What does this sound like to you, Dave? I can't I mean, I'm racking my brain. I can't think of anything. That I mean, this must be something new that the

world's never seen before. Now, I can't say I can't think of a single thing that already does this. So I think we can both say that we don't need to wait five years. It's here we're doing it. And with was it now? Well over 7000 podcast, using the value for value streaming payments and booster grams and all that stuff? I think we're kind of their apps get paid. developers get a piece now. Is everybody making bank? No, no. But there is something very important.

Listen again to what he says in the beginning, what I'm hoping and what we're actually seeking at the firm. What we're trying very hard to find what we're trying very hard to fund. Well, I think got a check on that either. No, although it makes me think you know, Dave, we should wrap this whole thing up and sell it to Marc Andreessen. Everybody gets rich. Come on, why don't we sell the whole thing? Everything? I'm just doing this obviously for effect.

Yes, we I mean, we could have okay, we can probably well, we could. We could sell curio caster and breeze and fountain. And we could sell all the apps. Everyone gets a piece. Everyone gets a million bucks. We create an LLC that's got 150 people in it, but we have an LLC. Okay, we're just expanding this one too, to encompass you. No, no, no, we're just gonna have any five different developers. This package you're thinking all wrong. If we're gonna do the VC

route. We're gonna do money. We take the money we tip everybody else then go, yes. Everybody else gets tip. That's right. It's time tipping came to podcasting. That's right. That's, that's the only way tipping gets onto your tongue is in a gag like that. I know. It's it's fantastic. Now I love it. And now we just do a spec spec. Yeah, there you go. Man. Jason's got a couple of specs up his sleeve. Well, Steven Be the man behind curio caster says I'd sell out

in a heartbeat for a million bucks. All right, who else is off? Hey, if you're all you're all up for up good for me, but but wait until we get that first board meeting, when they asked you to bend over and shove your shares up your butt, and then do a down round and then dilute you. I'd rather be I'd rather be broke and own and own myself. That's right, brother, rich and have somebody else that is right. That is right. And we got to show 100 coming up, which

we'd like everybody to remember. And we'd like everybody to remember that we are not selling out to Vc. However, it would be nice to in this low Bitcoin value environment to be YouTube up your savage if possible, so that we can not dip into the reserves for paying for the bills. Yeah. And speaking of that, by the way that I think I think

you're exactly right on the on the word replacement thing. I think the more I think about that, I think that's that's probably right, because I see, we see it visually you see it visually. This is something that's been on my mind for a while. Do you like at this point, about two or three years ago, I noticed that people started doing this. I think YouTube was the first place I saw it where they started changing people's colors. So like when they would have their

artwork in within within the YouTube platform. It would be these big, like androgynous people that were like blue and purple and green. I missed this trend. Was this people the creators doing this or YouTube doing this? No is YouTube's promotional graphics like their branding and stuff? Oh, creator, creator day and it would be like, a bunch of nondescript these are. They're clearly meant to be humans. Yeah. But they're purple and blue and we can't have any reality. Real colors.

I mean, like it's every day, it's like this attempt to just rid rid all its brand safety taken to such an extreme that they can't even acknowledge reality anymore, that they're that there are it's like, we're so afraid to offend somebody that we don't even want to show what people really look like. Yeah, and it's like the same thing with language. We're so afraid to offend somebody, we don't even want to use real

words for people. Eventually, we're just gonna, you know, make up whole new words for for people that just don't even report to any reality. I think we're well underway with actually, I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I think that's kind of happening. Yeah. The cat but I think you're right with cat, you know, cast upon their they're getting into hosting they have you seen that?

No, no, no, no. Yeah. And the last dev meeting, Benjamin Bellamy was telling, saying that was I was asking him about pod ping. And he was saying how they get they're getting into hosting. Because that's just like a natural thing. What somebody runs their own caster pod instance. The next thing they want, you know, they gotta have a place to put their media. Right, right. Wow. So they're prepared to go into this nightmare of a business. Evidently. Wow. Evidently, I

mean, I told Steve and be like, do you like your life? He says, Yes. Don't become a hoster. Yeah, because it's not the technical issues. It's the customer support issues. Yeah, you're the first line you're the first call people make when it's not showing up on Apple. And where's my life pod ping in pod verse. This the other call you get so now Shep Oh, bah. I would say Benjamin because that's that's a tall order. All right.

I guess the reason I'm connecting noses I think the the ecosystem of decentralized podcasting is starting to like, not only decentralize the the ecosystem of of decently I'll say this, the answer is the Libra ethos, libre ethos. Yes, the ad the pure pure libre ethos within podcasting is beginning to take hold, so that people are beginning to want to own not just their brand, but their infrastructure is the thing that Todd Cochran has always talked about, you know, own your own

website. You own your domain, all that kind of stuff start that's where you start. And then you branch out from there as he released the new media show where he's bitching about Spotify because I listened to that update. Yeah, Todd Cochran mad at someone about RSS is just it's good listening. Good listening entertainment. And it? Oh, no, I don't want to I don't want to jump gears before you're finished with your Well, no, no, that was it. So I just wanted to say

congratulations, look at what you've achieved. We're not even at 100 episodes of this podcast and just turn around for a second everybody take a look. Take a look. Take look down at the ground liquid with your own shit that you've built. This is stuff to be proud of man and you got guys out there saying you know, Billy a billionaire with real money to back it up. Man five years I really hope we can get this done. We're desperately

trying to fund it. Look at where you are. Look at where you're kicking their ass. It's right here. Mark You can have it for free. Yes, exactly. Just it'd be nice if you donate it but yeah, have it for free build an app there's a thought hit up the Pay Pal Yeah, we're all good. That's right so no on the on the podcast Libra Friday. No agenda to Alex has been wrong. He's kicking ass. I know. He's got all kinds of stuff he's got now you can flip a switch and you can get your email show up in

the RSS feeds you can claim it in curio caster. All right. Fountain and in the podcast wallet. Yep. Yeah, this is so for people who don't know. No. Agenda tube is a is a I call it a fork. I mean, I don't I guess it is a for kids. If Alex, if Alex built it is probably a fork. Yeah, I think I think I think it's fair to call it a fork at this point where he has a took peer tube and just and forked it and now he's been he's made a lot of changes to it to support

podcasting 2.0 features. He runs it all himself on his own dime, the video hosting service, but else but since it's part of peer tube, it's got a lot of diff a lot of cool capabilities like webs, like like a peer to peer was like a web torrent. Yeah, yeah, web torrent. Yeah, web torrent HLS. And, yeah, a lot of that kind of stuff that makes bandwidth really which is important. Important. People implement that if at all possible. Yeah. Steven bass. It is forking awesome Yes. That's it. So so he

is he baking pot ping in there. 10 bucks as us. Oh, yeah, he'll do. For sure. But so he's, here's some of the things you He's done lately. Is XMPP in the chat on live pay? Let's talk about that for a second. Okay. So that's something that fits with all validity into the social interact tag or is this different? Not yet, it will. There's no reason it can't. But is that even the point? Is it a little? Is it a little different? Because it's, it's chat. So it's chat. Is that the same as comments?

No, it's it is the point. Yes. Well, I think I think he wants to know, it's on the page first, but then you'll have then you'll have it in social interact tag may already be in the social interaction, really. And I need to check that. Let's see. Here's his life cycle. See social interact. There's got to live item in the feed when he hits go live, it flips to live item in the NA two rssb. That's actually yes. That's the next thing that he's added recently is live

items. So now you can you can go live on no Jonah, no agenda Tube channel. And it'll put a live item in there. On the show, yes. And no agenda. I know, I'm always I always have a moment around the donation segment where I plug podcasting 2.0. And it's often it's like, oh, you can see all these images, Chapter images, but actually played some of this. And I, and I'm sure I told him before, but I said, you know, right now we're, we're live in all the podcast apps that that

can do it. And I explained what it was, he was like, Holy crap, really? He was surprised when I said, Yeah, you get a ping and your podcast app, you click on it, open it up, you hear the live stream, you got the chat right there. He's like, really? So yeah, that's this is pretty awesome. Like, for him to say that that's a big, that's a big deal. Actually, it's a big deal for him to say, that's really, yeah, he's never impressed by anything. He's not.

So I've done it all, no agenda tube, and I cranked up the channel and did the and did live. It works great. So the one thing that was lacking, though, is, is support, you know, in the index, we weren't, we weren't consuming live item. Tags, right. And, you know, I should probably go back again and say, live items. So what a live item is, is, if you're familiar with the way an RSS feed looks is you have every episode is is called

sit syntax wise in an RSS feed is called an item. And so it's an item, and then all the information about the episode is in the item. So we just created in the podcast namespace, a thing called Live item. And it lives in the RSS channel. So it's appear, it's if you think about it that way, it's like a sibling of all the rest of the items. But because it's prefixed with a namespace, podcast, colon live item, it can exist there and not violate RSS. And the apps and platforms that ingest

the RSS feeds, they just don't even they don't see it. So it doesn't mess anything up. They just read the items because they're there. If they're not ingesting the namespace yet, or even if they are basically as long as they're not as long as they just do everything like they always have the existence of another thing called something else at the channel level doesn't miss anything. Well, it did with dog catcher. I still see I still don't think that I still think it's

something else. I don't think it was purely the live item. Well, I put the live out there put the live out in back into no agenda and it broke the app again. When did you do that? So I got that report a week ago. And then I if you recall, and then I took the live item out of the no agenda feed, then I got reports back. Oh, it's working again. And then I put it back in for yesterday's show. And I get reports. Oh, it broke again, same error. It's something with dog catcher. I'm not I'm not

saying that. That. I think didn't I think we went through this. But the way we're doing it is valid. We got that we got validation that from the XML gurus that this is okay. What we're doing. Yeah, from Baxter Yeah. But for some reason it's breaking dogcatcher. And I said, Yeah, I'm sorry. We just have to break dogcatcher new podcast app.com. It's not like there's no other option. Well, people, you know, apps are very personal to people. Now, I am not I don't want to like dismiss that. Because

you're right, that they are very personal. But But this, but you have to understand that I mean, this is an abandoned app. There's no there hasn't been development on it since 2012. Yeah. Oh, really? I thought it was 2018 2012 longer than I realized. It. I think that if my understanding is right in 2012 was last time had an update, but who knows I could be wrong. Anyway, so that that's buggy parsers aside, this, this all works. Fine. And then dog catchers. The only thing we've seen this had a

hiccup. Yeah. Everything else was fine. So that's what we're that's what we're talking about. That's what enables all this live stuff to happen? Well, the live items have been in the feeds. And it's part of the namespace. It's official now, they've been in the face for a while, but it's not been in API. So yes, yesterday, they before I worked on putting support for live item into the index. Now, how will that be used?

Well, that's part of the what I want to talk about, I want I want to talk a little bit about here's, here's what I've done. So far, I've added live items support to party time, which is the the ingest or the parser. So it's picking it up in the feed, it's putting it into the database. And I have currently one endpoint that I just hastily made just to expose it just so we can start playing with it. It's called slash API is an API

skull slash episodes slash live. So if you call that API endpoint, you're going to list get a list of all the current live items. And it's based upon a pod ping and a check against the feed. Now all we do is check against the feed. Because we don't we don't have to do it any other way. True. Because every time we get a piping of any type, we always report. Right, right. Right.

So that's the that's the way it exists right now. So my question is, and then what I wanted to discuss was, how should the API pay, like, give back this information? What? How, what is the expected end? Well, if you could have parameters, you'd like to know, a timeframe. And the way I would, as a developer, of course, is as developer, here's what I haven't intensive that developers

and app developer. If someone you know, it could be something the app checks, you know, it was just a different way of of getting the pod ping information, I guess, you fire up the app here, the shows that are alive, you know. So would it make sense to say here's the default is here shows that have gone live in the last 30 minutes. And you can set it to any, any timeframe back in time. Was that useless? Am I just

talking about of my developer? But no, I mean, that the nature of the live items is once they're ended, that they're, they're useless. So they're really only so like, they don't become they don't have a state they don't have any staying power within the feed. They're meant to be ephemeral. So from that standpoint, I don't think a

historical live items have any use at all. But what you're saying about showing like upcoming ones pending ones with you know, they're scheduled to go to certain time or ones that are current. That makes sense. Yeah, I just think I'm thinking like curio caster shows. It has like, now Stephens got like, was a podcast and he's got music. You can choose back and forth. I wonder if there's that sort of thing. But for live like okay, I want to see all the shows that are currently live streaming

right now. There's a good reason for something like that. And I wanted to bring this up if you don't mind. Yep. This what we're doing here. The lit is incredibly cool for discovery. Because if you see when I mean the power have never really observed this and, and a great a great example is earlier this week, I forget what day it was. Maybe it was was it Sunday, all of a sudden, I see all over

the place. I see there's a Twitter account, podcasting live I think it is it's the same for Mastodon to podcast, podcasting live is that it account for podcast live I think podcasts live podcast live. So I see behind the scheme's with threes is live with Dave Jones. Yeah, it was Sunday after after no agenda. Cuz I knew that you were going to be on but I kind of forgotten about it. I see this pop up on my timeline. I'm like, Oh, shoot. So I go into my app. Oh, I don't see it. Well, it's

because I'm not subscribed. I go to you know, I do a quick search. Bring it up. I listened. I boost a whole bunch of booster grams to the show, which was fun. Yeah, this is a better guitar player. But I also subscribe to the show. Yeah, as a discovery mechanism, it's really cool. It really is exciting into you know, not not lot of people follow these accounts yet, but you know, whenever I see it, I retweet it no matter what it is, this is a this is a real discovery

mechanism. And in fact, I think, you know, there's reasons for all kinds of pod ping bot accounts. If you know what I mean. why would why wouldn't someone curate, you know, the top five tech shows and have a bot that let you know when when that when that tech show was either updated with a new podcast, or you know, or if they're live, it reminds me of what we were used to do with. With news rivers where you would you would spawn a like a category, like a

news river that had a certain category of feeds in it. And you say, Okay, this, it would have its own, he would have his own page and everything like that. And it would only show you items from the OPML list that you've built for that thing is sort of the same way you have bots that say, Okay, here's all the tech shows that are going there. Live Streaming, here's all the, you know, garden shows that are sure that mean, or Dutch, here's all the Dutch shows

infinitely expandable. If anyone can tap into it, anyone could tap into it and writing an app that does this guy's super exciting. I want more podcasters to do live shows. Because for a couple of reasons. Like it's not once you're comfortable. And I say this as somebody who's only been podcasting for the last two years, you were really kind of apprentice status still. But

okay. Mattawan mentee mentee, one learner, we went in one day, I'll graduate and get my when you can, when you can snatch the pebbles from my hand, it will be time for you to leave Dave Jones. And so once you get kind of you know, quote unquote comfortable behind the mic, to where you're you're sort of used to doing we're used to the process of doing it. Doing it live is not that it's not that big of a deal. Like it really it really has the but there was no bumps in the road. It just felt

normal. Yeah, but let me stop you right there. Okay, because of the lack in production tools. A majority of podcast does post production post processing all of this stuff after the fact, going full on Live is not the same as doing a podcast and then tweaking it and editing it. And it's not everybody can do that. Now you got the right schooling. I don't know from this, but someone taught you the right way right off the bat that somebody did.

And I must say I'm, I'm still very excited about my, my road caster, version two, which apparently is coming any day now. And then I can endorse a device that that actually works for live production. So well, but I'm just saying it's not appropriate for every show to do live, nor do most people have the production skills to do that. Now it's abs, this is an absolutely idiotic thing for me to say, to somehow disagree with you about about the streaming

media. I mean, it's as absurd. I mean, I might as well just jump off a cliff, but go ahead. I'm gonna do it anyway. Here's the thing, it's like, you can still, when you finish, you can still post produce, and put out the polished one. But there's an there's a, there's a unique, like, even if you're going to Maven, or for messing up a bunch of starting and stopping and that kind of thing. That's still valuable to hear it live because you build a sort of like quirkiness with your audience

who's committed to your thing. And they're not going to they're not going to be, you know, you're gonna have, you're gonna have a committed core of people that listen to you, that want to hear you, whether you mess up or not, and whether whether it's whether the whole thing goes sideways. And this like I mean, it's like when you mess up, there's a there's a quirkiness

and an attractiveness to that, too. So I think that, like if people tried it live, that might, like you said, it helps them with discovery, because they're going to be one of the few shows that actually does a live stream. And then they're still they can still post produce and cleaned it up and put out the Polish later. But they stick but they get the benefits of of the unique live experience. Of course, and I'm not going to disagree with you on that, but it's not

it's not appropriate for every show. Gotcha. Jen Briony per show was edited. She has clips, you know, for people playing clips on the fly. It's just an That's something a lot of people are trained to do. And I know this, I mean, this part, I know a lot of people just don't do it that way. Now, there's a huge non podcasting streaming audience, it's called YouTube, I think this is the genius, you bring these people over, teach

them how to package it up. And you know, because it's really this, for them, it's like I flip it on YouTube does the rest, well, it's not going to be exactly like that with a podcast host because you're gonna have to, you know, still bake the mp3 and upload it and do all that stuff. So that, you know, there's some hurdles, which of course, could be shortened. But, but if that's the audience that I think, will understand this,

inherently, it will be very happy with it. podcasters I think they can, you know, the power of, of pod ping can be harnessed in many ways for this for the discovery that we're talking about, you know, when, when, when Dave Winer kind of checked out a blog of blogging, I didn't, he didn't really check out but he had web blogs.com and web blogs.com All it did was it shows you the most recently updated web blog, and it was pretty cool. He just sat there and it was like the like the pod

ping Dot Watch. He just sit down you watch stuff update in real time, and you can click on it and read a post or whatever. So it's really an aggregate in that case was an aggregator but I think he was using XML RPC if I'm not mistaken to know to create a version of pod ping or activity pub whatever you want

to use. And he sold that for $2 million. So if anyone wants an idea um if anyone wants an idea you know something like that where maybe you can filter yourself I mean like you said, you know, certain language podcasts filter them out have that be your your your update page or your bot these are great things Yeah, I guess no you know you're just want to see people be less afraid of messing up you know and like the I just want to see people run with scissors more and be less less afraid of you

know I don't know for you know, aspiration if you tell young people to go ahead and mess it up before you know what they got a broken femur and they're sleeping on your couch I've already got one of those that need even more than a little bit I've advocated for for live production not not even live streaming with live life to take forever to it's the way to

go. We haven't really had good tools for that or good education or etc. I've always been it's been on my mind because I did so I did what was it bowls with buds and our bowl after bowl and and then did behind the schemes last week? A little overexposed Dave a lover's have gone for Harvey wants to but the the whole like I've been getting I've done some of these live

shows. And I see that there's just like a looseness to them where people don't mind you and making mistakes and now these you know this shows that have been all I mean, in that I've done some shows that are also just taped and out under the last shows share the fun to them where it's this people aren't you know, it's not so stuffy it just has this like this energy. I'm really That's why all my shows are live to tape. Yeah, it really doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference.

Let me read out any if we can do let me read out a couple of boosts we've been getting booster grams since we took the show lit this morning or this afternoon. Well worth mentioning. Pay tar 250,000 SATs Holy crap. He says upping my Satish to really appreciate Yeah. Okay, that's that's is that a big ball? Are you seeing the boost for today? Well, we're gonna get 20 blades on the hem ball out just in case. That is big baller. Yes. Oh, no, no, no. It's actually not. It's

not. Nope, it's not big baller. That's a tease. Blueberry 10,000 SATs nondescript and inoffensive boost Thank you. floydian slips says I'm broken. I own myself bitch with 5200 SATs. Yeah, that's the podcasting. 2.0 thing thought pattern. Jake from the sleek podcasts 3326 V four v music. We should talk about that. Brando cellars 5000 sat boost Thank you row of ducks from Tim the artists formerly known as mixer happy Fridays. Happy Friday, fellas. Hope you

have a great weekend. Thank you very much. And let's see if we had some pre pre live boosts I think you'll have those in your in your run at this one you probably don't have 10,000 from Macintosh Dave and Adam Thanks for always thanks as always for everything you do Adam this boost is for my needing to shut down my voltage notes sorry again about that. Oh, can I get a little love for my podcast generational wealth with

cryptocurrency that love given? I just posted episode 55 Last night trying to get the SAT flywheel turning go podcasting? Yes he he's setting up his own node I think he couldn't justify the expense of a voltage node. So absolutely. Thank you very much. So those are just the live boosts? Yeah, my voltage did the billing on voltage change because I got a I got an email saying that my credits were running low and I

needed to re credit fill it. Yes. Redis what credits what kind of what kind of casino is gray and running over their credit? I don't know. Because I got a match run up. Personally. Oh my god damn, I run a 1299 a month. Light No. Right. And then then as you did always just bills at the beginning of the month. 1299. And then I get this thing saying you're running low on credits your you need to refill your credit. They will be auto

refilled and then being it paying me for 20 bucks. Oh, man, I need to check with with Grant sounds like sounds like inflation to me. Mega inflation seems seems to be the thing these days. Yeah. No, I I think we paid what I know. We paid for the podcast index note upfront. Yeah, we do that annually. Yeah. Yeah. And and I have a light note there for Moe facts, which I guess it's still okay, I gotta check it. And that's kind of the good thing is and I have to look at that one too much. In fact,

the notes had been pretty good so far. I mean, knock on wood. What am I doing? Inviting? The man? No, so stupid. Thanks a lot wrong. I'll be doing this weekend. Okay, we got the so medium tag, no agenda? No. Agenda two. He also put that in there. We put in the medium tech. So the medium tech cool. So it would show up under video, I guess. Yeah. So killing Ed. That That one is as a medium tag of film. Oh, cool.

Yeah, and there's a there's a so I'll put that up put also this week support for the medium tag into the index officially now. It's being ingested through the aggregator. And also, there's once again, the same way with like with live item. There's one endpoint is podcast slash buy medium, as the only important you give it the medium, it'll give you back all the podcasts that have that medium. Now. And then here, here. Again, this is another thing that I think we just need feedback on from

everybody in the boardroom as to what? Like how best to structure this within the API, because the way you know the way you consume music, and the way you want to find music podcasts, that may not be the same as it, it may not operate just like a a podcast app. Yeah. So like, if you just say, because here's I can think of it this way. Here's one possibility. You replicate all of So currently, the API is like podcasts slash by Feed URL.

So you can look up a podcast by its URL, right, or podcast slash by iTunes ID. And you can look it up by that, well, you could just forklift all that over and say now we have a whole new set of endpoints called Music by Feed URL, music by ID low whatever. Or one way to do it, or just set a parameter music, medium tag equals music and then perform the rest of the API functions. That's another way yeah, you just tack them on to the other

stuff. Or a third option is none of the above and, and really the best way to consume for an app to find these music. These music entities is some other way that doesn't even fit either one of those, which is also possible like images. What I would love is for a music app to say, hey, here's what I want. I want if I was going to pull data from the index Here's the way I would want to do it. And then we build it to meet that need. Because that's essentially what we did for the podcast apps.

Well, this is where I believe discovery is important. Whereas I don't think it works for podcast, I think music discovery and just being able to click on stuff and, and get recommendations, which would not be our job, the indexes job. But for that kind of, I think, I think it's significantly different. And maybe there's some some stuff the index should

be feeding back. I don't know. Yet I'm just but I am music app has to be driven, kind of around two things, your collection of stuff that you really like that you want to access, again, your favorites, or whatever you want to call them. And discovery. I mean, this is where discover, and maybe we'll learn something in that process that helps for podcasting. Actually, if you look at a lot of podcast apps like overcast, cast, ematic, things like that, what you see is they already have

playlist features in there. And you could be me, you can just imagine that those playlists are just music playlists instead of podcast playlists. Well remember, my my dream is I want to play music on my podcast. And I want to not only be able to pay the artist, a split, as someone who's listening to their song by timecode in my podcast, but also, why wouldn't she be able to immediately access that feed of from that album that that track is on? Right? Yeah. So there's a log,

it's a chapter link or something like that. Just kick over to the as an example, as an example. Sure. Or even slicker? I don't know. You know, add a button, add this song to my playlist. Yeah, I mean, there's there's different all kinds of different mediums. There's music, film, video audio book. So I mean, any one of those could have its so it can have its own structure of the way that it needs to be, even though they are all very similar. I mean, what do you use for your music? Me?

Okay, Spotify. So does it function the way you would you'd like it to to you is I mean that, then take that model and say this is this is the stuff that I use it for? Aren't we are building stuff for ourselves? We're not building for anybody else. I have the, you know, I have the music app. And I can see it in my head. But I guess what do you say? I mean, do you think music apps? Or only say, say this? Do you think podcast apps would

want to implement a Music Mode? I think they would just want us try to shoehorn it into the existing user interface. Well, the question is, will they want to do music at all? That's the first question. And then I would say no, it doesn't make sense to shoehorn it into a podcast interface. There's some differences. I don't know what they are, I'm still waiting for a big new difference in the podcast apps, although we've

seen some very nice examples. With every app is unique and has unique features that that are user experience oriented, not just technical or features, but really, how it functions, how it works, how you use it. And everyone's idea is different. So I think the music listening experience and the collecting of music experience, and the sharing of music experience is different from podcast. So it would warrant some change in the

existing app. Or, you know, like, curio casts or out hears music, okay, it's clear to me. Now, it still kind of works the same. But at least I know what I'm what I'm okay. It's music. I got it. It's not podcast is music. Right? Even though I could find them to podcast search? I could find them too. That makes sense. So I don't think I can answer your question as to what people want from the API, because it seems like it's just all the same.

Yeah, yeah. I think we'll figure it out as we go. And I think all all musicians who put music on podcast and 2.0 should do them live. I think that's probably not gonna happen. Every song should be live. Because you know, Dave likes it. It doesn't matter if you mess up. Just stop. Pick the song up, start over again. You know, keep going. Don't you want to hear Dave Jackson do? Don't you wanna hear him? Jam live. Great podcast. good guitar player. You get my point.

I do get your point. The that's what it says what I get for deaf or daring. Derek Jarrett? Well, no, no, no. So I think we have most of the pieces there right now. I'm not quite sure what happened. We were hot and heavy and discussion. We had Sam means was in any anything come back from any of those people we? Has anybody looked at any deeper at the RSS feed? Yeah. Like Michael. Michael Ray from wave Lake. Okay. Yeah, he's, he's on the index now. And people Yeah, people are

definitely looking at it. These are people that are new to what's going on here. Okay. And they can take it can take a minute or two to get your footing. Yeah. And so I think I think everybody's just sort of going through now trying to sort of digest what is going on and get, get their feet wet. In, in sort of see because it means it's brand new, really, even though music podcasting has been has been around. I mean, everybody, clearly people have done it

before, on a limited basis. But now it's sort of like, okay, let's get serious about this thing. Let's create, let's try to create infrastructure that will actually enable music podcasting to be a true alternative to record level podcasting, or whatever you would want to call that. And I think in order to do that, that requires people to be careful. And do it and build it. Build its, you know, Bill, build it

with intentionality. So I think that that's really what's going on right now is people are trying to figure out okay, what does this mean? And how do I, how do I take advantage of it in a way that makes sense? question that I did. Ice Cube soup in the chat asked the question. Okay. Why why why are we slowly building via a gradual inevitable accumulation, a dependency on the central single point of failure isn't avoiding this the entire point of the podcast and 2.0 initiative?

What is the single point of failure? The API? I guess? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Well, I mean, if if the single point of failure is that he's talking about is the is the API, then that's there's not a single point of failure. Because we, I mean, all the API does is aggregate all the feeds. The feed the this data lives in the feed, it doesn't live. The it only lives in the API, because it first lived in the feed. Right? So you can you can go

out, grab our database, pull in that, okay. says yes, the API and the fact that the index is the only place to use it? Well, it's the only place to use it now. Yeah, when somebody has to build the first thing, here's an idea Ice Cube soup, grab a copy set up a set up another instance of it. It's only it only has to be built somewhere so we can figure out and work out all the bugs. And we're in figuring out how

the thing works. Then, I fully expected that other directories was in five years, Marc Andreessen will have given somebody a couple 100 million dollars to take it to take your code Dave and and, and have no success. Yeah, that's the Silicon Valley Way. Yeah, you do all the work, you get nothing. We take money we give you know, that's, that's the I mean, this is just this as well.

And to be fair about it, I mean, I My feeling is the backup to that is hive, it's pod ping, you know, yeah, there's, there's things about pod ping that or about hive itself that you can discuss, but doesn't really matter. There's a universal messaging bus for all podcasts. You can build a podcast app, just using pod ping. Just using pod ping. Yeah, I mean, like, and that's truly distributed has all the information, everything you need to know it's right there. Build your own API.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, we're building the API exists. Oh, no, no, no, no. Ice Cube soup wants a Docker image that it just loads up and everything works. Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, God, I've got a job. The day job and kids man I get I get I get time for that. But even then it's like day that's going to be very limited. I mean, that's a huge project to do that. Yeah. Well, I mean, one day, one day it'll, you'll put 30 aggregators and all this stuff into one big

Docker image. It would just make it a Linux distro. We we run 20 We run 22 servers. Yeah. That the Um, now, I think that there's two different things happening here. There's there's the index, it will this has always been the way it is. There's the index. And then there's the podcasting. 2.0 project, podcasting 2.0. We're building protocols and forms and formats and standards, that that's the thing that everybody can use. You don't need us the index exist, for one reason,

excuse me. Two reasons. It exists number one, to give app podcast apps a place to hook into to get all their data from so they don't have to run their own infrastructure so they can bootstrap and not have to pay a fortune. Exactly. We we help kickstart podcast apps, they can out and they're very free to outgrow us in the future if they want to. And ice cube we do have a link to a copy of the database every week. It's updated. Yeah, yes. So

yes, that point should be a link. Yeah. A link to the database is on is on the bottom of the homepage. Step step two, step two, for only about $100,000 in donations, Dave could do this full time. Yeah, that's, that's a smaller area. How about me? How about this? How about I call mark? And say, give me $100 million? We got a we got a whole thing to do here. Yeah, I'm just a little. I'm just a little irked by this. But but the other reason it's, it's helping podcast at

bootstrap for free. And then the second reason is to be is to be scissors, and have a place where these new things can be explored and was safely outside of committee. Yeah, exactly. We build it. And then every look, look at all the people that are using chapters and transcripts and all that kind of stuff now and ingesting them. They all every one of those features started with just the index supporting them. Now, lots of platforms are supporting them. It radiates out. It'll it'll fix itself.

Yeah, it'll take a while. It always at one point in time, Linus Torvalds. was the only person running Linux. Yeah. And then once you let it go, what happened? It it blossomed into a baby. Oh, is that what happened? Okay. Yeah, I mean that so that? Yes, that is the point. And maybe maybe we just stop here right now. And just let's let's thank the people who have supported the project. Oh, that foreign Yeah. Our 12 into the show without a guest that just you and me talking about trucks and stuff.

It's Thomas flying by a call me midday eating a cherry. Now that's okay. How cute he's eating a cherry. This is for those of you who are new. This is a value for value Open Project, which means anybody can access it. Anybody can join, anybody can have an opinion. Everybody can contribute. You can you can use I think all the code or a lot of most of it is open source. Our stuff certainly is mostly and other apps. And

it's a great community. If you're if you're listening to the show, you're not on podcast, index dot social, you might want to follow Adam or Dave there. Or if you want to have an account, send us an email. And we'll we'll send you an invite, so you can hop right in. You just heard we've got servers, we've got infrastructure that we're maintaining. And we need as much help as possible to maintain that we got liquidity on our node. We're Bootstrap. You're so right. We're bootstrapping

podcast app developers. We're bootstrapping value for value. podcasters. And we're really, I think, I think the track is right here. You know, I'm very proud that we have this incredible momentum. So much so that, you know, the guys with hundreds of millions of dollars think oh, man, we can't do anything until five years from now. You know, and then and then what? People are going to move? Oh, no, no, not at all. I mean, the whole infant look at all the hosting companies who are adding

namespace tags. It's really fantastic. And yeah, it's been we're coming up on two years. But yeah, I mean, it's surprising how fast this has gone. Really? Yeah, no, it's going very quick. So you can go to podcast index.org down at the bottom. There's a link if you want to give us your Fiat fun coupons. We do appreciate those. Certainly because people realize

the numbers are the numbers. But of course we also love your booster grams, your streaming sites, everything and part of the deal is we thank you when you send something and we thank you by reading your booster gram or your note Are we sure do and we got zero Pay Pal weekly donations this week. Pew pew pew zero Pay Pal donations. Zero. Okay, well it is the audit. What do you what you just played as the audio equivalent of an old man trying to pee in just the stream which

won't get started, you know? Just keep going. Yeah, well, that's Mitas. So I'm sure I'm sure he's flattered. Yeah, we got we got zero so okay, that's nice. We got plenty we got we got plenty. A good list of monthlies, but okay, I guess I guess the last show was bad. That's the only thing I can think of. Well it'll take two more shows to to evaluate. But if people don't supply the value, then that's very easy. And then in my

mind, they're not getting enough value out of it. So we have to figure out what provides more value. So but we do have we do have boosts we have plenty of boosts Okay. Which is which is good. Yeah, we need Auburn citadel. 49,490 SATs Nice. Nice. Yes, he does that a bunch. I'm not he needs to tell us what the numerology what's the number again for 49,490 49,490? Yeah, so fell through fountain and he says go podcasting? Yes. The only thing I could find podcast is the 49 490 heavy duty air filter.

I'm just gonna stick my neck out and say that's not it. No, I think you're right. The I'm doing this actually from mud. The email. Oh, look at you. Would you like would you like my.mk rc file so you have all the cool file? I've spent years developing that thing. I would actually love that place. That would be amazing. Like, I want your macros man. There's a lot of cool macros that I've got in there. Sure. I'll send that to you. No problem. Yeah, that'd be killer.

I'm gonna drop it in since one of you using mutt what happened? Since a week ago. You logged in you know that curries on a something? Let me try this month thing again. Here's the here's the funny thing. Is the I use fast mail for our podcast index.org. I mean mail account, fast mails, web interface cannot handle emojis. Really, it just doesn't show them at all. They always come through as like these weird, like encoding might handle them perfectly. Well. It's also the terminal you're using.

Yeah, I mean, will fat fast meals web interface? You would think it could handle an emoji website? I think so. And but but my command line can handle it better than the website. Yeah. Maybe they thought you know, fast mail. If we don't render the emojis. It'll be even faster. Yes. Yeah, it is faster. So, Mary, Oscar, Oscar, also known as Oscar Mayer. Yes. And it's 10,000 SATs. Thank you. And he says, Hey, listen, marry, stop sending test boost from the dungeon.

That's right. He stopped the one the 10 sat boost and he turned it in 10,000. Thank you, brother. That's true. Boost. Yeah. And he's working on some cool stuff, too. Well, maybe we'll he'll let maybe he'll let us talk about that. Yeah, we'll have to have him on if he wants to talk about it. Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah. We got Oh, over Citadelle back with 4949 and he says tripping over scissors. Scissors sound Dave scissors. Oh, you got me

run over there and pick them up there and run back. Ah, nice. Sharp. Nice and short. I was on the I was on the the polishing wheel before the ships getting them all fired up. So Karen mere mortals 9090 s s through curio caster. A friend asked me the other day. Why I dislike Spotify so much. I can. I can hear his friends say Hey Karen, what do you dislike Spotify so much? And he says I stuck with the advertisements and the dodgy marketing practices. But this episode has added a whole new

set of weapons to the arsenal. Chatting with Sir Spencer on mere mortals has also made me super excited about decentralized music and the coming demise of the music tyranny he's optimistic that chyron is but yes that is the idea and I there's no reason we can do it at all greed. Just need to need to jump in. Build some apps and stuff. Dion as soon as 999 sets and he or she says uh Hello creator reaching out how you doing booster? Hello creator Hello booster.

See Steven B. I think this is this may have been during the show he says hey guys, I wish there was a way to for fans to reach out to their favorite creators. Yes. Let's see what my I'm out of out of sequence here. Oh, here we go. This is the danger of mud. Okay, so value for value no add freedom boost from Georgia or well 1111 Boost. Thank you. Thank you George. I'm wondering and I'm so out of whack you're not?

I mean what is it is definitely for the experienced. So if you're if you're experiencing some issues, so here's my experience. Here's what I expected to experience. I expected to experience that when I hit the down arrow key. I go to the next email but that's not what oh, you need to hit J J. K JK brother J K not down arrow down arrow takes you to a whole nother thing. That yeah, okay, so and if you want to read more, it's the return key. Oh, of course it is.

Why are you laughing at me? Why are you laughing? I'm laughing It must because you know everybody would expect that that go to the next email you would hit j would ever think that that's the case. Okay. All right. Hold on. I gotta do Here you go. Knock it off. Shut up. Shut up. So the answer is another one. He says 909 SS he says juicy. Okay, okay. Juicy indeed. Kaspi lintas and 7380 sets and he's through fountain. He says okay, okay, Bitcoin is low. Double boost. Keep keep

promoting the only fan. Keep Whoa. Oh, that's SSE. Keep promoting the only fans girls. One day, one day, one day, I can directly boost them just for that just for their ads. And how could their profile? Haha, sorry, I can handle Jensen. Maybe look into his work one day. One day again. Thanks for the word is is he talking about the Jenson podcast? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Is that a well known podcast? And oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, very well known and very polarizing.

And was it Pete who posted a short audio of his test his first test of the road caster pro mark two, I think. And I didn't see that. Yeah. And he said that there seems to be some latency. He says, I hear my voice like a little bit later. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. That's bad. That's very bad. If there's actual latency, like he demonstrated something like Oh, I'm gonna send it back if it has that, apparently is running on Linux. The whole thing.

Ah, okay. Surprise me. Man. That would be a deal killer. Oh, yeah. See, we got to wait, hang on a second. Hang on a second timeout stops show starts. Okay. Well, no, this is what you like. Right. So you like it when people mess up? No, I mean, like, for real start the show because my kids just started playing drums. Okay, we will temporarily pause. Alright, so So now wait a minute. This is this is the one with the broken femur. Yeah, he's back on the drums already.

Yeah, he is. Now he's in physical therapy. He's doing good. Oh, well, I'm happy to hear that because I was kind of thinking about that. It's like, you know, she got stuff messed up. I don't know what that's like to get back behind the drums. Yeah, when he first did it it scared me to death. I was like, Oh my God. What do you do is like no, it's fine. It feels fun. Okay, all right. That wasn't my drumstick did crack dad.

Yeah, all right as else in your dream the donation no and I hear Funkmaster J up there. That's all right. We barely heard it. Oh, yeah. Niall sent us five sets who know what the hell are you doing? Is his message says boost with an exclamation point. That doesn't fit. No, it doesn't take the exclamation point away. Yes. That's your boost right there. Cole McCormick send us 333 says and he says waiting for found to

lit it up. I want to listen live. Okay. Well, I I'm pretty sure is being worked on. User. Here's here's a boost from user 706-512-3838 six to six. Yes says it's 500 SAS and he says from your friends at is issue u.com issue UISU e y o u.com I mean this is just gonna like Take Over is this because this spam buffer overflow month but I S you ISU e one s? Yeah? I sue you. It's not issue. It's I sue you dot o u.com. Let's see what. Okay, I went to ICU su u.com And it gives me nothing.

It's a parked domain. Yeah. It's pretty. Okay. All right. Thanks. Thanks for wasting our time. Yeah, thanks users Evernote for whatever. See Mike comes in with 5678. Dave didn't know j&k Were down and up and mutt. Those two keys do the same thing and fast mail. Dave needs remedial email training. Wait a second. See Mike is always going oh, they do? It's the universal Unix way. Brother. J and K. is universe not? For what? For up and down? It's H for left J for down k for up Alpha.

Right. Where have you been? Clearly not clearly not on the command line. I think it's isn't this the same in VI as well? Yeah, it's the same in VI Wow, use VI. Well, new I'm an emacs guy now. Oh, are you converted to you know? Yeah, I've been I've been using emacs for months. Oh, well, I and I like it because I started with the GUI client. So if you don't know a command, you can go to the menu bar and find it and then you do that three times. And then you remember the shortcut.

I've had a hotkey awakening. Alright. 150,000 SATs from Chad. Pharaoh is boosting the dip. Whoa, hello. Oost. Thank you. So you drop an extra pinion there was a set. Toshi Satoshi is one of those big coins with the B on it. By the way, see on Twitter, I use I have one of those that I went back the other day because I had it in like a humidor box that I've had in the closet for years. Like, look at that things. Don't tell me that. Maybe there's like that, that someone gave that to me? What if

there's an actual Bitcoin in there? What if it's like a private key or seed seed? Seed words on the coin? I went back and I studied Oh, no. Okay. No x x ray, maybe it's on the inside. I've been using rain loop recently for web based mail because I have to use some web mail. Rain loop is very cool. It's just a it's a it's a web shell that runs and it connects through IMAP to any email server. And it also has shortcuts. Are they? Okay? Well, interestingly,

no. Interestingly, they're not. Yeah, I'm very disappointed by that. They have a down arrow. It's like, Oh, come on, guys. But I've sent the developers notes. Can we put the j&k in there? Well, I didn't, I would have put that into the river navigation years ago if he had told me in free controller. Well, the river navigation is also nice because you hit right arrow, it goes to the next item, you hit down arrow, it goes to the next feed. Yes. See this. I now as a human have a map of all

these key key shortcut shortcuts of all different apps. I think you're a savant when it comes to shortcut keys. No lobby you you know, shortcut hotkeys for so many different apps because it's so much faster than moving the mouse? Yeah. And so I got I try to learn them but I have no capacity to remember them all. It's like Hindenburg which is the I love Hindenburg editing

software. Eight Now interesting. Lee it uses J K L. So L is I can't do an obviously I'm recording on it is to just play forward and you let go the L it stops you can hit spacebar and it plays. But if you press L and K then it'll triple the speed so you can rock through it. You can rock to a spot or J for for backwards and the add the K and it speeds up. So yeah, I mean, I love these things. It's just so it makes life so much easier. Thank you Chad Pharaoh for boosting the dip with 150,000

Cool man. Chad Pharaoh again 3333 through fountain and he says this shit is lit yes It is up Nomad Joe since 2000 SATs through fountain and he says Spotify who floydian slips flooding slips through fountain nice and is 4567 SAS and he says advertising podcasting for value podcast one idiots attempt at starting a value for value podcast going into 3333 sets from Carolyn and Carolyn through esfri. Through curio caster, Carolyn says the safest podcast

that runs with scissors boost boost boost. Blueberry says 11,111 SATs through fountain and he says, What have you been most grateful for during the build of podcasting? 2.0? What have you been most grateful for? What have you been most grateful for? Hmm, I think it's like everything else in life, I think. I think the thing I'm always most grateful for no matter what you get involved in, it's just the relationships that

you end up building with people. Not purely the friendships and stuff and the relationships but but the nature of the working relationship where you've you learned that you can, you know, work with somebody to build something new and to create something new, I think. I think you learn things about each other and about yourself. I think it's just the I think it's the metaphysical part of it more than just the actual building of

it. But I mean, when you stand back, of course, you know, I'm proud of the work but his face, the question is, what are you most grateful for? I would, I would say, just the shared work itself. I agree. I also like that in 20 years, we can all look back and we'll say we did that. Yeah, yeah. And everybody and every, every single person who works on this project was I was a part of that. And it is my true belief that the work we are all doing

is very important. It's really important for I'm just gonna go there for the future of the world. And when you when you hear how stuff is being clamped down, and just you can't talk, no, we are we are the resistance. Viva la revolution.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Because I think I firmly believe like what we talked about at the beginning that or as Dave from x 22 says, I do believe, I do believe that when whose hit the tide is going to turn at some point, and it's going to complete we're going to have given these tools to all the wrong people to a bunch of douchebags who think that we are the dead that that humanity is stupid, and they're the smart ones. And that that thing's

gonna flip and it's gonna bite everybody in the rear. And at that moment, everybody's gonna be very thankful that we built that we built also an open safety valve. Yep. Yeah. The revolution here it is. The revolution will be lit. Oh, I like it. That's a t shirt. That's a T that's a good t you know what we need we Podcast Movement. When we go there in Dallas, we're going to need to take some T shirts with us probably. Or some stickers or something. And we'll exchange those for sexual favors.

You what you do in your own time is your business. So we're sharing a room Dave I don't know what you're talking about. My job is my business. Day se Macintosh sent us 10,000 SATs and he says can I get a little love for my podcast generational wealth with cryptocurrency boost? Yeah, I just posted episode 55 Last night I'm trying to get the set flywheel turning go podcasting? Yes, that's the one I think we network I think we hit the live booster Graham's there.

This one was from June 17 at 11:35am. Ah okay. That was a pre appreciate booth re lit. Okay, I know you don't have this one. Dr. Dub 300,000 SATs. Is this the one I hit the button for? Yes. Follow shot caller 20 blades on him. Paula. Holy crap. Thank you. from Robert. See, this is from Robert Wiley. Thank you all. Thank you for all you're doing I've posted what I've learned from this podcast, sir Spencer and Josh chin on the website. Music casting.org

onboard musicians Yeah, looking at that this morning. It's very cool. I printed it out and I had it in my notes talk about today. I put it in the show notes music casting.org Okay. It includes links to my four albums and a lecture on how podcasting 2.0 and value for value offer new New Opportunities for musicians. Oh is like a why is this? Why does this keep ringing here? Oh,

it's ring I see. I'm sorry, is ringing here. Let me stop this Oh, it's someone's calling me on signal and I saw the phone pop up and I'm like, Why do I hear it on my computer door because I had signal open on my computer. That's why I should read that note again. Yes, please do. Yes, it's from Robert Wiley 300 1000s as is what he gave us and he says, Thank you for all you're doing. I've posted what I've learned from the, from this podcast, sir Spencer and Josh chan on the

website music casting.org to help onboard musicians. It includes links to my four albums and a lecture on how podcasting 2.0 and value for value offer new opportunities for musicians. I'm going to put in music casting, use it to CS music casting.org I think it is yes, music. Yeah, I'm gonna put I'm gonna put that in the show notes. What is this? This, by the way is the stuff that makes it work. You know, thinking that you're going to do it with a marketing

department or anything like that. It's not how it works. This is this. We need the people. The people need to stand up and do this. We should have them on the show. Okay, let's do it. Why not? All the meat we need we need to pull all the music guys in on the show. Okay. It's important. Thank you, Robert. Really appreciate that. Marlon, sent us through fountain sent us 11,000 SATs and he says Dave is a chubby guy in my mind. Okay. I'm husky. Let me see. That's wrong, bombshell. No.

Yeah. That's it's just quite wrong. No. Comic Strip blogger the delimiter 15,033 sets. Comic Strip. Comic Strip, comic strip comic. Con extreme comic strip strip. singalong comic strip. We'll give him some props. He's been supporting the show every single episode. Greetings from Eurotrash continent to podcasting. 2.0 team Hello Euro trash continent. Dave Jones, your trash incontinent these Dave Jones and AC is podcast index.org ESG compliant. Are we are with ESG comply think we are?

No, we would lose on a lot of fronts where we win on the saving the Earth with POD ping. We totally lose due to lack of diversity. Unless you were just two white dudes. There you go. Yeah, there you go. And I also have two trucks that combined for a total of less than 30 miles per gallon. We're sure really a very bad man. Yes. Anyways, Episode 33 of our podcast AI dot cooking about

artificial intelligence is dropping this Monday. Oh, you don't say it is spoken by Gregory William Forsythe Foreman from Kent also known as growth. Notes I was I was informed that people keep saying GW F F now it's gruff. It's just go off. Okay, cool. Okay, is spoken by gwass gruff so you're welcome to relish it yo. That's right. Let me hand out a boost maybe one of the Thanks, everybody. Pop you heard from Fauci is popping off a can of restless relish. So you can relish it.

Are you eating relish now after your cherry? No. Just trying to understand your diet. Dave. I have pita chips. Yeah, I have. So by the time I get home from my lunch fro so I leave the office at 12 Get here if 1215 start the show at 1230. So my lunch usually consists of a plate of stuff I can rapidly grab out of the fridge and dump onto a single plate on the way into the podcast. I gotcha brother. I gotta listen to the podcast booth. Yes. Thank you everybody has

any any monthly pay close? Yeah, yeah, but hopefully we had some monthly pay pals. No, we get some monthly. We're good. Terry Keller $5 are in car and hugger Miller $5 Chris cow and $5 Jeffrey Rutherford. $5. Jeremy Kevin not in dollars. Alex gates, the podcast consultant $25 Thank you our calls. Paul Saltzman $22.22. Thank you, Paul. Hey, pal, ducks. Is that a is that Sir Paul? There's still a couple of Sir Paul's, but it could be. I don't I don't remember.

Damon Castle Jack the $15 David Norman. He have a picture studio is $25 Derek J. Vickery. $21. Thank you, Derek. Jeremy guards $5 Thomas Sullivan, Jr. $5, Timothy Hudgens, my buddy $25. And David would find $3. That's all right, everybody, thank you so much. Again, value for value. Whatever you get out of the project, whatever you get out of the podcast, just assign a number to it, and send that in, keep the project going, please, so we don't have to go begging

at Marc Andreessen store. Although that would make everybody really rich. I just want to point it out again. I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep pestering with this spec spec. And we're going for a spec full on spec. Now really, really appreciate it. Of course, we we'd like time, talent and treasure. So even if you're not participating in sending value through treasure, time and talent are highly appreciated. A lot of people do a lot of great things for podcasting. 2.0 Even

just telling people about it is incredibly helpful. evangelizing please and and let us know if you need any help. How can we help evangelize? We'll get our marketing team on it right away to podcasting index.org down at the bottom. You can also send on chain Bitcoin, which one set up? No one has done. It's always Hey, man, hey, man, if only you set up an on chain, Bitcoin donation QR code I could donate, but since you didn't, and then you do it and then you never hear from him again. Let me go,

let me check the tally coin. I didn't actually check that. Let's see. In that way, it always goes like a man if you would only do so and so I would do I would, you know I would get involved or help out and then you do and they never show. It's always well, with no agenda. What we've learned is there is a category of people it's not big, but they're around and it goes like this. They're always I was going to donate but you said something that really pissed me off. This happens all

the time. Well, I can't donate now. I was contemplating how much to send. Now I'm thinking should I send anything at all? I had my finger over the mouse. Close. A couple of bladed lit boosts booster Graham from Mitch from a pod verse. He's got a full on row of ducks 22,222 Looking forward to seeing you all the Podcast Movement Dallas, I might need a new podcasting 2.0 t shirt because I don't fit in the small anymore. Oh, welcome to independent development. Mitch.

That's exactly what happens. Welcome to Working from home with all that Russ wood all that ramen and snickers bars and see Mike 1768 SATs blowing the balance of my curio caster

SATs wallet. Fo Yes. And he says Marco Colin. I am impatiently awaiting the addition of more podcasting 2.0 features in overcast and I'm willing to test the alphas and betas if you needed a human listener to help with QA and UA t tests I cannot wait to boost the boardroom chat from overcast go podcasting I don't think about value for value boosting from overcast anytime soon market doesn't seem to I don't think he's interested in that at this at this point in time. But

other features yeah other features for sure. Yep. Is that it? We got it because I want to talk about something I did for this a lot of no agenda to work because Alex was busy this week adding features to in a tube and one thing that's been an issue has been adding value blocks people claiming it in their podcast wallet but yes did not support email. Yes. Well now. Now he supports email but it brought up so that's that's a

soft issue. But now it brought up this other question. And it goes like this al Alex and provides a service that is bandwidth and processor intensive video transcoding video, live streaming, video storage. So appear to denseness is not a cheap thing to run and operate. Clearly. If you get any popularity at all, you could be looking at quickly hundreds up into the you know For five digits a month, if you don't keep a check on it, so it brings up this idea of if I'm taking,

let's just make a song about it, no agenda tube itself. So takes a slim put a bunch of videos on there. Well, if Texas slims videos get very popular, and a lot of people start watching them. Then Alex is serving the bandwidth. And let's just imagine that Texas slim now takes him did put value bike in

there, but let's just say he did. If they, if this happens in somebody's in a bunch of videos gets popular and website gets popular and there's no value for value in it in the in the creators don't put value for value blocks in their feeds, then, then there would be no opportunity for streaming sets for Alex. Correct. So what I did was as an experiment was put in, we're trying to devise this solution. And the ultimately what we wanted to do is be something like like a dot well

known URL. So that no agenda so that when when the index sees a video, have no agenda coming from no agenda tube.com. When it sees that as the feed URL source, it could go and check at nogen to.com/dot. Well, dash known slash, some URL, in where we're at this special URL, the owner of nodes in the tube.com, would then have constructed a way to tell podcast platforms and an app such as the index, did they want to get this

particular percentage of a fee? So then the index with that, in begin to add a podcast, a value block to every video that is served. Every video we know about from no agenda tube.com begin to add a value block in there that only has a fee percentage for no agenda tube.com. So essentially, these are value blocks without the creator in it. And the reason, and it's a direct funding for the platform serving the video, rather than the Creator.

And you want you want the index to insert that. That split. Yes. Like it's we're doing it now as just a way to test this whole thing out. And so my question is, so like, right now, if you go to Alex's live let me see if he's on there. Well, he's got he's got a variable X set up, let me know what Texas slam may not let me look at beef initiative. No, I don't know. Thanks. Okay, go look for bait search for beef initiative

and podcast index. And you'll see that the only split in there because he never claimed he has not yet claimed the podcast and wallet for yeah, there's this. This is not the best example. The Texas slim feed. Okay. Because they may have a whole bunch of reasons for that. Okay, there's a million people have been managing this stuff and it was claimed incorrectly and let me see if initiative. Alright. Yeah. Right. So yeah, I see it. Well. So here, here's my here's, here's my, my initial response

to what is happening. I think it's a bad idea for podcasts index to be inserting anything. Okay. Why is my question the ethics of this and all the things why doesn't know agenda? So, for my money, I would say if you want to host on podcast index, here's the deal. Your feed will include a split for no agenda to whether you claim your wallet or not. Whether you are doing value for value or not, and he can

insert that into the feeds he creates. And and I presume, well, I mean, it just comes down to how he wants to run that. Breeze is an interesting example, where you cannot get any old podcast and breeze it has to be value for value enabled. Why wouldn't you say hey, you want to you want to use no agenda tube, then you have to have a wallet. You have to have it enabled. And, and the no agenda tool needs to take this percent. Why? Why would any freebies in?

Yeah, that's kinda though that's yeah, that was the old screw the whole thing screw that no freebies but but it shouldn't be the feed should be the source of truth shouldn't be the feet. I seems. Technically I understand why it makes sense to do it this way. I think it puts us in the spot we may not want to be in. So that that was we'll see. Think about it, though. Okay, I think I may, we may have missed this, this part is that this is

not. Yes, you could put it in the feed. But here the the other way that we thought about doing it was that no agenda tube.com creates the file in the dot well known, say expressing to all platforms that whenever that platform supports value for value, that what they want is a 1% split or whatever this, you know, 20% or whatever this thing is, so that we are we are

getting the information from the platform. It's not coming to the feed, but we're still not just making it out willy nilly like, Yeah, but it's, but you can't, but it's not the source of truth. We have one source of truth. Feed, why can't just be put into the feed? It could I could, I could, if you. I can see, I guess he dropped. It could in this instance, because there is a feed. I can imagine things in the future of other value for value things that aren't feed based.

What I mean, I'm just pushing back, because you know, this is just as good, it's good. I might have to think about this a little bit more. But it just seems like why why would anyone trust us? I mean, of course, we're, we're good guys. But why would anyone trust us to be determining predetermining splits? And then, and then we're gonna have to do it for everybody else. Because we can't just say, Oh, no, that's only for NA, too. Well, I want to have a 10% automatic split put in and I want to,

we'll see. Okay, so here's, here's the thinking that originates this thing is that, and I know you agree with this, that the platform needs to get paid to whether or not the creator gets paid, the platform can independently make a decision. They want to they want to make a value for value play

themselves. Sure. And so since I've chosen to upload my video content, to put it to your video, your videos are awesome.com that, that me entitles that, you know that I'm making that agreement with them that they can they can do their own thing in there, man, I'm just using their platform. So they want those. So you're you know, you're also videos.com

wants to make a value for value play for themselves. And they need to be able to express in some way to the world that they would they would like to cover their costs is 20% is a 20% fee. And so if it's in the feed, if they are a service, let's just distinguish split or fee, because that's two different things. And we need to be very clear. So that's on top of everything else a 20% fee. Fee. Yes. So and so not a part of the split, it's a 20% fee.

Right? So it's a it's a it's a fee split. It's exactly what podcast index does through our API, we add a whole bunch like because there's there's a fee, there's the g of a split of the 100%. And there's a fee, which is charged on top of the 100%. Right, this is a fee. This is a fee on top of the 100%.

Well, it's in this here, well, here's the thing going going back to this example of a video that exists exist on on this service, that doesn't have a value that where the Creator has never put in a value block. i Yes, I understand. I'm just saying there's a difference between a 20% split in the value block and a 20% fee. Because that is technically I if I understand it properly. That is

technically something different in value for value. Yes. So why a fee of 20% onto half of whatever the Creator asks or doesn't ask at all versus, hey, if you're not interested, I'm taking 100%. If you're interested, we need minimum 20. If not get off have no agenda tube. I think it's because of the expectations of the way. Because what what it is, is a fee. It's not a share of the revenue. Like when you say I want to take a split, that implies that the

Creator has something to do with it. If you're taking a fee, as a fee for the service, I think it's a matter of like, language around the whole thing of doing it. Because because they end up being the same, like a 20%. If you take a 20% split, and that's the de facto standard for that service, the 20% split, and a in a fee of 20%. Or it's gonna get you the same thing. But it's,

it's more appropriately a fee than a split. Because using the service, the service is charging a fee for the usage of the service. Or asking for a fee, not charging, but asking for a fee. Okay. I think ultimately, it ends up being the same, but the fee wording is seems more appropriate. Well, the reason it's not the same is it's one thing to use an app and get four or 5%, as a user, as a listener, or a viewer is another than like, Well, wait a minute, this

is 20% more than I sent. I mean, that's, I don't know, maybe that's just semantics for right now. Because we're still at the should notice, should the index be maintaining this information? And how do we where's our source of truth? We have to call up Alex, is it still 20%? What if he, I mean, he he'll know its dynamic is to see in this with the dot well known and like said, This is just This is all just batting ideas around. The dot well known thing, he controls it, so at any moment,

he can change it himself. The next time we check it, we'll see the change and adjust our feet and adjust what we put back in. And, yes, see, it's we're never it's never a manual process. It's, it's him setting the thing, just like it's just worse, just like Ellen URL, where you hit the you hit the web, you hit the dot well known and it dynamically creates a creates a an invoice for you. Except in this instance, we hit the dot well known every let's just say every 10 minutes and

see that, oh, the fee has changed. And now we start serving a different fee for the for everything on this platform. May not be a good idea. But well, how does podcasts index? Where do we get? Is our fee hard coded in? Our fee is always been hard coded at 1%? Yeah, but who's who takes it out? I don't know. It's honor system. It's, uh, anybody can do it. If they don't even have to, then you have to do we just ask for it.

Right? We asked for it. But when the API serves it up, if someone doesn't, if someone has changed their value block in their feed, they can take us out? No, no, we always we insert ourselves into it no matter what. If they have us in it, we don't insert ourselves. If they don't have us in it, we insert ourselves a 1%. And that's, so it's just a diff. It's a difference between like, like

no, no agenda to may not be the, the perfect example. Because you're right, he could just put a fee split in himself in the XML. But you can imagine scenarios where there would be other services, or maybe somebody just goes straight to the page, or views the video. Maybe they just get a link to the direct link to the mp4 and they never see the feed. There's all these scenarios you can think of in the value for value future where a dot well known address to express a fee is would be helpful.

But it doesn't make any difference if you just go to the to the website and you're playing without a value enabled player doesn't matter. Who's poor. No one pays for it then. Yeah, but imagine a volume that enabled me to imagine imagine get out be Yeah. So get get lb you have the extension in your browser. And you go and watch a video on no agenda tube.com with a direct link to the mp4. There's no possibility to have

any metadata in that video that it would express that. But what if there's a dot well known URL scheme that would express this this desire to to get Albea dot extension and get ABI check that every time it goes to a URL, it could check with the service and say, Hey, do you do you watch? What's your fee rate? And then it could display to the user watching the video, you know, hey, this service,

right, but you could get that from that feed as well. And if we, if we got a theme of fear, that's my problem. Yeah, well, my good Alby example, just second ago, there was no feed and there was no feed. It's a direct link to the mp4. So imagine our signals are good. And so I understand.

But I still don't understand why, why this has why this, there's, I'm not understanding what I think I'm hearing is you want to make sure Alex gates doesn't get screwed on bandwidth costs, I want to make sure that we're not trying to do stuff to wrangle that into, you know, hosting is a very, very, very complicated business. For exactly these reasons. I don't know if what you're proposing is going to solve this problem. I'm, I'm making it confusing, because I'm really talking about

multiple things at once. So that you're correct. The first thing I'm talking about is that I don't want to see Alex get screwed, or Alex or anybody else that runs a service like this, get screwed because people begin to use their service. And it gets popular, but most of them are not doing value for value. I want them. People like Alex that run these services, to be able to do their own value for value, no matter no matter what they

create. So the first thing I would do is I would shut down the web access. Because what's going to happen is exactly what already is happening is Oh, free service. Let me upload my shit here. That's exactly what happens. So and why because oh, look, I can watch it here. And I can watch my live stuff here. First thing I do is, Hey, you want to watch these videos. This is for podcasting. 2.0. Here's how it works. Every feed has a x

amount, 20% fee, whatever you want to call it. And if if you don't want to receive your value for value, no problem we'll take we'll take our 20% and we'll take all 100% or whatever you want. Here's how you adopt adopted, here's how you get a wallet. Here's how you do all these other things. We've got to stop the free loading, the freemium, the free loading stuff, that's for advertising, if he wants to do advertising,

then you can give stuff away for free. There's no free lunch. So I don't even think he should have the web interface open right now at all. Well, I mean, that's that's one approach. But then you but there's still, there's still the idea. There's still the idea of if I just take a direct link to the mp4 video and send you a the URL and you open it in your browser, your browser is going

to play it No, I understand. But then there's no, there's literally no way to find out what the value from value is not just a technology, it's a programming concept. It's a monetization model, you have to explain it to your audience, you have to get the audience to play along. You can't just say, Okay, we've we've locked it all down, it's going to work, it won't work. Well, if that's the case, then it won't work for platforms at all.

Well, depends on what you mean, by platform, we'll have a service like no genitive, if, but because No, no genitive can't express within the content that that idea? Well, okay, but what you're saying is, there's, there's a percentage of people who listen to this very podcast on a webpage on a shitty web page that comes out of my freedom controller, and they just hit the play button there and they're not contributing anything. Right? I mean, that's

going to be 96 to 98% of all people. Right? So that's the numbers that a service or platform is going to be playing with. Right? So the first the first thing that's what I'm that's what I'm saying we need to capture to be you. So you What do you want to capture if someone downloads the mp4? Understand, how would I want? Yeah, what I want there to be a way to do is to express is to is for the service or the platform to express directly that there

is a value for value option. And that would be that would have to be done through something like this, since there is no feed in that scenario. So that extent browser extensions and other in other platform technologies have a way to get that information that value for value information. There's not since there is no fee, why is there no fee feed? When every single? Why does it why doesn't just every everything on no agenda tube have a feed? Why

wouldn't every account have a feed? I don't understand. It does. But if somebody goes and clicks on the link, like you're talking about on the webpage, and that link happens to go to no agenda tube, not to the no agenda to web web player, but the no agenda to mp4 directly. Yes. I understand that. So how does how does that get paid for? That's what I'm trying to solve.

I don't understand how you're doing it. So I have a direct link to an mp4 to download it, which may or may not be something a lot of people do, I don't know, sounds like something someone would do if they want to circumvent providing value. Then how how do you express that so that there's a fee, I don't understand

that you take your value block. And this is the idea. This is the dot well known idea, you take the value block converted into something, you express it as JSON or some a note some format, or he could save an XML and XML and you put it at no agenda tube.com/dot Well known slash value for value. And it's a file that lives there. Now every time let's just use the idea of the get Alby extension, every time I go, and I watch a video on no agenda to.com Whether it's from a direct link

to the media file, or on the web page or anything like that. The extension since it's a standard, the extension knows to check, no agenda two.com/well known slash value for value. Okay, so this is this is really trying to help out by giving Alby something to use when there's no feed. Yes, that's not podcasting. Oh, yeah, no, but I mean, there's an Yeah, that's what I'm

saying. I'm saying two different things. I mean, there's the idea of trying to help out services within podcasts, then there's also this bigger idea of trying to have a way that value for value can be expressed beyond just podcasts. Okay, thank you. That was the lead that I didn't understand. I'm all for that. But it's not a feed. It's not podcasting. And

we have to question what we're doing. Because if we're now are we if we're going to be an index for value for value for all types of other platforms and services, very interested in it, but it's not podcasting? I won't. This is this was an interesting experiment between between me and Alex. And I think that, you know, his main his user base and stuff is so small that it's, it's fine. It's okay to do this and play around. But, you know, if if this did involve

a, if this did evolve into a standard? I could see us. I mean, it wouldn't make sense to support it if it was a known standard. Just like your URL and URL or anything like that. Do you agree with that? Or no. I mean, so I would love the value for value standard to be exactly that the value for value standard. And I think it's totally relevant to figure out a way to do that. But it's not podcasting, podcasting. And I just got to be militant about

it, from my opinion. It's the feed the feed is the source of truth. So it's okay that we can do other things to solve, but it's literally pulling people away from podcasts, and we want to bring them into apps. It's giving them a way to go outside of apps. And I understand I mean, that for 15 years, I've been doing value for value, maybe 4% actually contributes value back the rest. Just take and don't give anything that

That's the fact. We push a lot of data every single week and we pay for it, you know, we have a fixed price, because of the crazy cash CDN that we use, which is basically part of the downside. So you know, setting up a platform for value for value is very interesting to me. Or, or making something that that enables value for value. Outside of podcast apps for platforms, it's of course, I'd love to see that I think it's way off mission for us. Okay, I'm not saying we shouldn't do

it. I just haven't been convinced what when, when we're doing things outside of a feed then We really do lose the source of truth that everybody can take a look at. You know, I can go to an RSS feed, I can see exactly what's going on. If it's now an API. It just I don't know, it just doesn't feel right. I understand where it's coming from, though. I really do. Because I also want video to work. And I don't want anyone I

want Alex to make money. But anybody who provides this, but I just don't know if this is the if this is the thing that podcasts and 2.0 should be doing. Or the pot pot, let me put it this way, if that should be folded into podcast index. Right. Because I'd rather have get Alby, you know, be used in an app. Yeah, it can I understand. I understand that. Yeah. Yeah, I'll take it. I think there's, there's some because we did you know, because we do, we do things that are not always in the feed.

Such as their whelming everything with with LM pay, and, you know, and all that, but the value block is, okay, well, technically, you're absolutely right, when it comes to when it comes to value block, but I think ultimately, we'd really love for, for a whole bunch of reasons for that to also be reflected in a feed. And not not just something that we store, that's a shim. And now we have another shim for something that it's actually not even a

shim. It's, that's maybe whip so my objection comes from. It's not a shim until the rest of the world has value blocks in their feed. There's no feed. Right? It's now just doing an individual content. I don't know. All of a sudden, it sounded like a business to me. Just it's a good discussion. And that's why I wanted Yes. Well, I wanted to bring it up to you. Because there's, there's obviously ethics involved in any ethics, don't trouble me to the

ethics Don't trouble me too much. Because, again, I mean, value for value is always voluntary. It's completely voluntary. And if, if there's an extension in your browser that pops up and says, Hey, this video, you know, this nogen tube supports value for value, do you want to give them a fee for watching this video? To me, there's nothing wrong with that. No, no, it's not wrong at all. But the difference is, it's not necessarily a podcast. Yeah. So it's a value for me, dude, we

can tomorrow, we can start a value for value index. I mean, that's, that's a great idea. But I think I think there'll be very few platforms that will that will do this. And I still think there's some, there's some we need to think through what exactly the way I know agenda tube started as a an alternate place, you can upload some videos, and it's all kind of low usage. Then we started talking about using the video aspect for podcasts. And, you know, we know how the monetization for that

works. But now, it's now we're talking about value for value enabling platforms. I don't know if we want to be a part of that. I don't know that we want to be a part of that either. I'm not going to disagree with that at all. I guess I see it as part of the work. I see us being associated with things like this

with ways to push these things forward. Because we are you know we're just like we're involved in Alan Yarrow and trying to make that better with in more supportive of value for value and increase and and we're, you know, we're involved in a lot of things outside of just purely podcasting, just because they are sort of tangential to the whole idea of a value for value world and stopping all the free loading. So I can see as being okay, value for value does not stop all the freeloading ever.

Again, the numbers are 4% Right. We want the free. idealistically we want the freeloading to stop. Free loadouts are right but we can only stop the free loading in in the podcast realm. I don't know. I, I can't say one way or the other, it just doesn't feel right. We're always talking about the source of truth. And now we've just removed the source of truth and said, Okay, we'll do this for anything. Oh, yeah. I guess we just it just seems outside of our scope. That's all when

there's no feed, your anything could be, you know, me. You can put almost anything. You got an escort service, put something put make some content, and do whatever you want to do. That's a podcast. Yeah. 100%? No, believe me. I, I agree with you on on the fact that as the index and add as podcast index, our focus is podcasts. And that that's where we that's the domain we stay in. My only my only thing is that we also are involved in other

things by by association. I mean, the same reason we go and, you know, attend the lightning labs roundtable. Sure, sure. Of course, but and we're involved in Alien URL L in URL. I mean, that has nothing to do with Elon URL has nothing to do with podcasting, per se, other than the fact that it's just it just a happenstance that it comes into play there. And that's what I'm saying. I don't think it's inappropriate for us to be involved in trying to figure out help figure out solutions to

these problems. Even if we're not involved in it directly by saying, Okay, here we go. We're gonna support all of this stuff. Where we, you know, we stay in the podcast realm, but you know, it is it is nice to some, I think we both gonna, but we're not putting LIGHTNING, LIGHTNING labs elements into the index into our database. Sure. Yeah. Right. This stuff doesn't even exist yet. And blue, this is all an experiment right now. Gotcha. And we'll talk about this on the next show

is this is a conversation really worth having? Because it's a really good one about how do we value for value enable the media landscape. I'm just saying, I don't think that's what podcast, index and podcasting. 2.0 is, I have no problem. Working on it, I believe me, I like making more money. I have lots of content that is never monetized. But the play that I understood was okay, this would be great. We can do live, we can do video, and we

value for value, enable it. And my personal recommendation would be if you know, if you're not using this for podcasting value for value, then we're going to take the money, the platform, here's how here's how you get you know, outside of the 20% fee that we take, here's how you do it. And no free loading on the website. Not no website, you want to watch these videos, get one of these beautiful apps.

To me, See, to me, it feels better, to instead of shutting down the entire web interface, it feels better to design ways to express to the user that what they're doing actually costs money and ask them to help. Right. But you're but you're doing you're you're asking them to help by saying, Oh, you can also do it this way. With Alby. No podcast necessary. Fine. Yeah, fine. But why does Why do we have to be the ones? That should? It? Should there be a

resource for that? Probably, I'm just wondering if that should be us. The only reason it should be should is not the right word. The only reason it could and can be us that has input on these things, is that we care a lot about it. And we're trying to push the entire value for value space forward instead of just you know Yeah, I mean, I personally I like to push the podcasting value for value space forward. I really I mean that sincerely. That's where my heart

is. And but there's a million other what I mean, why not be the Okay, we'll maintain the value block for your word Oh, game. I mean, we can do all of that. But I just don't know if that's what we should be doing. I get you 100% Take your point. Which means fuck you curry does not mean that at all. No, it doesn't mean that at all. I mean, I literally have in my notes, you know, feeds value for value. They have this the ethics of a value block when no block exists in the feed that

that is the question. That's the question. Okay, well now I've got stuff to think about. I also have exactly 30 minutes to post produce and get on the road because we are having dinner in Austin tonight. You Yeah, you did. Hey, don't mute yourself. That's weird. Did your dog there was your dog barking? my notepad. I picked up my notepad. I was sitting there talking in my notepad had hit my mouse, but yeah, don't mute don't mute. Everything's fine.

No, I had a big long soliloquy. You didn't even hear it? No, I heard all of it. You were only muted for a moment. That was good. Yeah. Okay. Okay, this is good stuff to think about. Now, I'm gonna have to sit in the car for an hour and a half and think about this. Because I see the opportunity day I see the opportunity. The one thing I learned from Steve Jobs, my big takeaway is the following key said, Adam, we as a company, we say no more than anything. So what do you mean? So we just

want to do what we have set out to do really well. And we try to stay away from everything else, because the experience shows that it just turns out to be a distraction. See, Apple TV. Makes sense? Perfect sense. So that's so that's where that's where this is coming from at a deeper level. Making value for value work for the entire world. Of course, I'd love it. But you know, it's like, we can only do

so much. And there's so much to do in our realm that you know, when I look at stacker news, well, that was fun for three seconds until everyone you know, doesn't do it anymore. And the reason is, it's not the full value for value loop. Right it's you can't just say it technically I've got it How come it's not working? Well, because you need as a as a creator, you need to do some work. You need to get people to understand that you need to onboard your people. You need to explain to them how,

you know, the nuances of it. The there's so much to do. It's not just it's not like programmatic ads. Hey, reminder, watch this ad because you know it's a big lift. big lift. Yeah. I feel like going out on a downer. This isn't just that doesn't feel good. No, I've got an ISO. Okay. All right. Is it the one the only one you have here? Yes, it is the only one damn, who were you talking about? Up? Brother To be continued Next Friday. What do you say? Yeah, let's do it.

We'll see you then. Everybody. Take care. You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit podcasts index.org for more information. Pew pew pew pew