Episode 89: Poll Juice

podcasting 2.0 for June 10 2020 to Episode 89 Look out for the poll juice Hello, everybody, Friday once again time to run down what's going on in podcasting, 2.0 land, the podcasting 2.0 a sphere. Podcasting 2.0 space, meaning everything that's happening with the API things in podcast index.org Well, of course the podcast standards, the namespace and everything happening at podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country in

Alabama. the go to guy for all your seed dumps my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Jones, left that lifelong dream to be known as the gap for all your seed dumps. the go to guy for all your seats. Well, here's the heart. Well, you know, here's what I do is like, I gotta have a cool or snappy opening for Dave. Like, go to the mastodon look at anything you're working on recently. Like, okay, can I make something out of this and you weren't gonna give someone a C

dump? So I thought there you go. He's the go to guy for the sea jumps. Just a little you know, the pros just on the fly make. I just make crap up all the time. The words don't make any sense. There's what is the sea dump even? I mean, I don't even know I mean, like it's just I just made that up. Good one. Yeah, thanks. The show is lit everybody. We are live. If and oh, yes, I can tell we're live because we're we're getting some booster grams already. I'm tired. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm sorry.

Well, Alex gates kept me up till like one o'clock in the morning last night with play he got me addicted to the no agenda to block stream and I was freeing them and desktop and I mean, I was I was like a YouTuber last night. I can I can predict the emails you're going to get very soon. It goes like this. Hi, I have hacked your computer. I have I

have access your webcam. And, and I saw what you are doing you need to pay me $5,000 in Bitcoin, when I will expose your dirty things you're doing in front of your webcam to all of your family. I love those emails. I'm always like, I'm always like, Hey, can you be paying me go ahead publish it. It's great stuff. Nothing embarrassing here. Have you gotten any of them in the mail? Like actually physical

mail? Oh, no, those are good. You've gotten one of those. Oh, somebody at the office go went and brought it to me and he was like, man, what is this? That's what is a letter? That's next level. That's next level. That's next level. That's because that that would probably make you feel like oh shit. Yeah, guys like next level? Yeah. Next level. It's Next Level Level SIOP? Fantastic. That's a good one. No, I mean, it was fun. I used obs and created a channel on

nodes into tube and all that stuff. I should do it now. Shut to do it now. Well, yeah, go ahead. And let me let me say something. You only say something. Because I had an experience today that I can't get out of my head. And it has to do with audio versus video. And so this morning, I got a ping from Sam Sethi. He wanted to talk about something. So we hop on a video chat. Now I've

been listening to pod LAN. I've been listening to Kirtland and Sethi for, I don't know, two years, maybe when did that thing start has been around forever. Right? They started shortly after we did two years. Okay, right. Yeah. And so we're talking and he stopped and he starts talking about something and I say, I gotta interrupt you for a second. My brain cannot wrap around the voice. I've been hearing the image in my mind of what you look like, and what you

actually look like. And it even took me I would have to say a good 10 minutes before I realized. Samsung says I think he's he's Asian, I think from India, probably. I think he's Indian here. Yeah, yeah. Because you know, if you say Pakistani, and it's the other way around. I mean, you can really, you can really hurt yourself. Now, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. And so but my brain was not even seeing this. And I'm like, holy crap. This he it was like, it was a surreal experience. It was

a little bit jarring. I mean, he's the head So man, don't get me wrong. I mean, you got it. Sam says he's a good looking guy. Sure. Yeah, you can say that. No, he's a highly highly attractive man that's across the line, maybe maybe went a little too far on that. And, and so I had to tell her about he said he felt similarly, and I've seen his little icon on, you know, around in the, in the person

tag. And this voice to me, I just saw like this nerdy kind of British kid, you know, blonde tuft of hair, you know, just I had this whole different image, and then I and then, you know, so not that at all, to the after, after we're done talking. I go back to listening to pod land. And I, it's the other guy. It's not Sam Sethi, who I just talked with is this guy who who's been with me for two years. And that's the image honestly, I want to keep.

So you're you're forcing the nerdy British kid into your head. No, no, the nerdy British kid is in my head. There's no room for handsome Sam Sethi. Yeah, that's right. This is really weird. So I'm just saying that I believe that there's a mystique. And the audio to audio. Yeah, and I'm not quite sure. So that's why if I do something live streaming I'll show like my hands on the you know, the mixer or something, something that's a little interesting, but just to show me nah, I mean, I and I, to

be honest about it. It's I have the same with you at the same with lots of people. So go ahead and live stream and ruin the dream for everybody down doing it right now. Of course you're Yeah. Anyway, I mean, like, the scissors are in full effect. So I mean, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. There they are. Those are Wednesday scissors. I know this is dribs sent these to me. Those are those are very small scissors snip your snip snip yours. Yeah, yeah, that's scissors baby right there.

It's a man as man saw scissors are here. Now it's fun, though. It's fine. I mean, I had a good time just playing around with it. And so now we need to just have that work in some apps, because they have the M eight m you file or whatever it is the that you can put right into into your feed. And then app should be able to show it correct. As far as I know. That's yeah, I mean, that's that's the way I understand it. Okay, yeah. Are there any apps that can eat this live video feed from na

tube? And most importantly, are they web torrent? Well, I think pod verse can curial caster, I think should be able to do it as well. I mean, anything that can take an mp4 stream should be able to consume it and I think pod verse I think I think Mitch sent out a beta today that has it has video with a live stream support it. Alright, so if you're using OBS, why don't I just connect you know what? I've got stream yard all set up. Stream yard is

pretty cool. What does that do? I guess it's like, like a squad cast or any of these things, you know, so you can basically it has some rudimentary tools for doing live with multiple video sources, except it's all just in the web browser and your CPU isn't grinding to a halt as OBS tends to do. Me and I need to take a look at that to make sure that I'm not destroying myself. You don't hear the Fandi? No, there's no

okay, well, I'm good then. We don't hear the fancy two. H talk because I don't mind showing something why I just don't want to personally it's like I don't want to I want to hug mo but I don't really maybe I can do it blindfolded. I have an image of that guy and you do to everyone does. Oh yeah, you've never met me Oh, I don't I had the image I have of Mo is is I don't I want that image. I don't I don't ever want to meet him in person. See because I want that image.

This is why it's very I don't know. I I'm an audio first guy for a moment. First audio first. Just the way it is. Crater first. Here crater first guy 40 Nam I'm below 40% on Zapier. I'm good. Okay 20,000 SATs from Brando sellers go podcasting 33,003 33 from blueberry who is promoting his behind the schemes This coming Sunday. You troll with me. Um, oh yes, I know. I know. I'm HoH the rounds.

Good. I was like, we're so tired of curry and everyone loves Dave because he talks so calm the end he has a great way of explaining things. Not like curry No, it's It's funny like I have my I have to adapt to the tenor of the show in question. You know, I'm a shapeshifter. Okay, why don't we get the obvious out of the way? Every single podcast is talking about Spotify, Spotify, let's talk about Spotify. Okay, Spotify. Ah, so best butterfly. You brought the clips. So I figure you have some some

starting point in mind. I only have an opinion. Oh, okay. Let me see. Let me see. This is the this is the tricky part of live streaming your desktop and your camera is you have to take you have to when you go into the deep dark secrets of of the way you do show you have to disable your desktop. So people can see your secrets. Oh, yes. Yeah, there is something to that. Yeah. And people. You know, I've posted pictures. And people have triangulated the view outside to pinpoint my exact location.

That's creepy. People do it all people do it. Yeah. Well, let's see if this is this is the fun part where I try to figure out what my clips are. Because I got a bunch of them. But they see. Yeah, the thing that I immediately know of course, there's there's like two parts to this. At least, I think Well, I think there's actually more parts to it. But the two that hit me where there's like there's there's the RSS part.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And then there's the the anchor part around anchors, numbers and that kind of thing. What are you doing? I had to grab my pad of paper off the ground. This noisy when I'm a noisy guy. So the so anchor, the one thing is oh wait, let me preface it by saying this. One thing has always been strange to me about anchor and that's that they tend something that has never made a lot of sense in my head. Anchor tends to just have this completely hands off approach in

some ways. And then in other ways. They are extremely strict. Like they're they seem to be very strict with music like they do I don't think they allow any music at all I think it's just a blanket thing like you can't have a music podcast on anchor at even if you own all the rights all that kind of stuff doesn't matter she can do so there's things like that the course of course they are that because the mothership has all the licenses and they gotta be real careful about that. That

makes sense. In in but there's other things like podcast piracy, do Nia cloning feeds? No, because they have no they don't they don't give a shit. They don't care about other people. One of the things that one pi, you can you can go through the anchor list of feeds. I mean, it takes 30 seconds to find 10 feeds that are complete absolute garbage. So one of them I found the Eau de it was just looked like somebody had just like, pounded on their QWERTY keyboard for a second to make the title.

And then the episode was one second long. There's only a single episode and it was one second long. And that was a live that was a live podcast in anchor and you could listen to it in Spotify, or one second of it. Yeah. So this may so some of what they said about anchor made made open, made some things I didn't understand makes sense. And the thing that makes sense to me now is that anchor as a podcast platform exists only to increase Spotify as in a huge number.

For for Wall Street to report. Yes, yeah, sure. In fact, that example you just gave wouldn't surprise me if there are companies that will do things for you. Oh, yes, yeah, create accounts. I bet you're exactly. They're very busy right now with Twitter, creating Your Workouts? Yeah, well, I found two podcasts that were each have one episode. Each were roughly eight minutes long, and five to eight minutes long. And they had no it was just one guy reading a few

minutes of a book. That's all it was. And it was the same guy who had created to it was you could tell him his exact voice exact cadence, everything was identical, same style, to different accounts, two different two different feeds, completely named different things. And he was just reading pieces of of a book. That's, that's a scam. And I was point firmly at an inside job. Think so? Yeah. Okay, of

course. Or, you know, just like there are people who have entire cell phone walls, who are downloading their own, you know, streaming their own music on Spotify for profit. And for other people, for record labels. There's I'm sure that this is also there for companies to know, is here's how it goes. Okay, we need some more users. We need 10 thought I've I have witnessed these purchases personally. Not not exactly this one. Because instead of we need new user accounts, it's we need

new user accounts. And there has to be some audio in there. Yeah, it's got to be you're uncovering something very good here. So we're just going by what they said in in the investor day. Yeah. And this is an investor deck. So what they say here is important has fiduciary responsibility type shit written all over it? Yeah. And what they said was anchor. timing is impeccable. Sorry, let me see. No, no, no, you're fine. As the anchor, let's, let's do Spotify one anchor numbers.

Now, think about how far we've come. In just under four years, we've gone from having virtually no podcasts on platform to being a global leader in the market. So put this in perspective. When anchor joined Spotify in 2019. There were fewer than 500,000 podcasts on the platform. Today, there are over 4 million and anchor powers more than 75% of them. Wow, that's interesting to have 4 million all of a sudden, really,

those numbers check out to me. I believe that I believe that. I believe both of those numbers that she said are exactly accurate, if you so it's just a coincidence. That's our number to Earth after I would say so I think it's a fairly I think it's a coincidence. I don't think it's any but they have 4 million podcasts of which a large percentage is junk. For they have it we have in the I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do you mind if I just listened

to that again? Please, because I want I want to listen for you know, as a lawyer, I want to listen to the exact verbiage you use there. Now, think about how far we've come. In just under four years, we've gone from having virtually no podcasts on platform to being a global leader in the market. So put this in perspective. When Ankur joined Spotify in 2019. There were fewer than 500,000 podcasts on the platform. Today, there are over 4 million and anchor powers more than 75% of them.

Okay, so the discrepancy here is platform she uses that. It could be as at one point confused as the anchor platform, you would expect it to be seen as an entire ecosystem since they bought it that that Spotify play out on the anchor creation side is the platform which means that they probably have about well, they're probably missing about 3 million podcasts that we have and they're the rest of their 4 million is filled up with anchor junk.

We show it so we only show 2,483,357 anchor feeds you hear that analysts. Now but but that that's not the full story. So what she said was 4 million. And let's just say that 4 million straight up and 75% of those are on Anchor. That means 3 million would be an anchor. So I think and I would guess that we don't have every single show but I think We're close. So let's just go. Let's just go ahead the ones that are the ones that are good. You mean of the RSS feed?

Yes. Because we chuck out all the bullcrap. Now the ones that we chose, if you take out all the ones we killed, which you don't meet our minimum quality criteria, we've only got 1.8 million. There you go. So if just being generous and saying there's 2.52 point 5 million, assuming that there are some that we don't have, I'll I'll grant that maybe we're there. Maybe there's a few 1000 We don't have but I think we're really close. Those are RSS feeds. Now they disabled default

RSS feed creation now. So real initial now when you get on Anchor, you're not you don't get an RSS feed automatically. This has been since last end of last summer. Oh, but yet those so those podcasts with the JFK JFK, and then a book read, they do have RSS enabled obviously, some of them do. Yes, I bet you there's so so I bet you the discrepancy between the 2.5 million we show in the 3 million, she says is the ones that don't have RSS feeds.

This kind of tells me that they're going for a marketing and market strategy of saying, we have the most seems that way. Which is really lame, because, well, no, actually it is. I mean, it's just it's, yeah, you have the most on platform. But a lot of them are shit than just are on platform and are just a number for Wall Street. It's about the if Spotify to it's about the M AU.

And those millions of shows being published to Spotify from anchor are often being made by first time creators to get no kidding. As those creators make their content. They share it with their friends and family off platform. And the results. On average, every new anchor show brings 2.5 additional MOU to Spotify. And between anchor and our other hosting platform megaphone. Spotify powered shows account for 45% of all podcasts assumption on platform is blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, but but she just said, all those people share off platform. Really? Yeah. And so then every time so every time there's a new anchor show. There's what she says is on average, there's two and a half new ma you Ah, right, Spotify ecosystem. So that's, that's their metric right there. It's a magic money machine, you create a feed you get you get three people.

Yeah, it just they just appear out of nowhere. You get three people from from here that poof and one of those three people is you listening to the to the damn book read, I can promise you that there's there are at least 10 or 12 dozen anchor shows that I'm the only person who's ever listened to. And I promise I will promise you that. Like that's, that's what an anchor exists to anchor is there to produce millions of podcasts in order to drive the MCU number as high as possible

for investors. I think you're right. I think you know, that's the role it plays in whether whether or not these things are garbage. It whether or not they're one second and no content is completely irrelevant. What did they pay for anchor? Who I don't know, it's a good question. I think I used to know, but I don't know. I'll look it up real quick. It was a lot more than I have. Yeah, no price gimlet was 230. They paid 239. That's that's the word. Yeah. Oh. Money here. Here's what I

don't understand, though. You you, I mean, I don't if you have these numbers, but they claim they made $250 million on podcasting, I think is what I heard tonight, and we'll get to they lost $100 million. How can I add that must be that must be overall that must be overall right. I guess what, I guess what they paid what they paid out to Rogen and taking markdowns for buying stuff. And was that explained? I don't think that was explained. No, I don't think so. It doesn't matter.

I mean, our criteria to be clear. So we have we have a criteria that we apply to to free podcast host. So if you're not a paid host, and you you're you're purely a free host, we apply a filter, a purge filter to you that runs that runs like mo A couple times a week, just to clean out stuff. One of the things that does so so it looks, it looks for these criteria, if something's a 404, it removes it marks, it is dead. Some of some

other things. One, the special criteria that gets applied to them is to the free host is it has to have at least three, the show has to have at least three episodes that that accommodates a trailer and a single episode. So if you have to have at least three, the trailer, and then two actual episodes, of which one is five minutes or longer. So that that weeds out this bottom basement level, garbage. And that's been really, really

accurate. So usually, if you go in there in one does not fit that criteria, I spot check it all the time just to make sure we're not overtly killing good stuff. And I've never seen a kill anything good is that you go in there, and you it's always stuff like what I just described earlier. And and there's just hundreds of 1000s of those that get created when you have a free

open to everybody hosting company. So we it's it's sort of like playing, playing self defense on our part, you know, because I don't want to I mean, we're, we're the podcast index, we're not the anchor index. And so if anchored, decided, you know, if five years from now, if they have 10 million shows of which 9 million are this kind of garbage? I mean, I don't want to host all that, that are not hosted that I don't want to index all that because it's just all crap. So

the bottom line is really important. That in our opinion, it looks like spot exactly what you said. Anchor is only to jack up the ma us and is scammy at best. Yeah, I would say that where we know, I would say that it feels like a big game. It does. It just feels like something's being gamified. And well, yeah, Wall Street. What do you think Wall Street this feels like to me? Well, I want you to clip this and, and make sure analysts see this. Hey, Jim Cramer?

Yeah, yeah. Now let's get on to the future and why it's so bleak for them. The RSS part? Yeah. So let's just go ahead and listen to Spotify three, with that critical mass of both creators and consumption in the same ecosystem, we're able to do something that has not been possible in nearly 20 years, actually innovating on the podcast format itself.

Yeah. All right. I won't give you my entire opinion. But I will say overall, what she had to say here, about RSS specifically, about the podcast industry, the people who've worked in IT for 20 years, and who have built this was rude and stupid. Rude, because you just dissed a lot of people. Yeah, and I don't know, if she understands that. I don't know if she has the background to even make a statement like that. But it was rude. It was just saying, oh, you know, 20 years

all this stuff up. We were able to do this, you know, my my initial reaction. Even if I wasn't doing podcasting, 2.0 still having been involved, obviously, in the creation of podcasting, but fuck you, lady, who are you? And that, but then to add insult to injury, we'll get to the stupid part later. She says that they've added some things that have never been 20 years. Well, we can at least make it 18 years since we've been doing this for almost two years now. So it's also a

blatant lie. Yeah. And, and some of the stuff that we've some of the things we've done have been purely new. But some of the stuff we've done have also just been taking things that were tried before and making them and pushing them into some over some sort of milestone or finish line. Things things like I mean, some of the namespace tags are stuff that blueberry tried to do with the raw voice namespace years ago. And they just never, it was

always it was always them. And it had to be an independent voice doing it. Some of the you know, some of the things were just things that were just being used between Buzzsprout and and in a single podcast app. And again, we took that off that single platform and made it into a into a general thing so that people wouldn't be scared off. But to me, like there has been attempts to do a lot of the things, a lot of innovation over the years that were hindered, not by RSS had nothing to do

with RSS. It was Paul Multics mostly. And that was one of our benefits. One of the benefits of this project is that we, we leapfrog the politics and got above it to a certain extent, so that people could stop being concerned about competition and just care about the technology. And a lot of the in wood that resulted in was rapid innovation in our space

in the US. And the reason for that is we have an incentive we have from the get go and incentive model that everybody can get a piece of the action, something Silicon Valley companies, particularly Spotify don't want to do. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't help doesn't help them know what their business model is. You do all the work. We take all the money. Thanks. It's their business model. Yeah, that's the Max Keiser, yes.

The business model. Yeah. So she says that this like, it's in the next clip, and clip four, she says that this book, because of their superior position, they've done thing this, these things that have not been possible in 20 years that they've been able to create a truly superior product who think about it. Podcasting has been around for almost two decades, and it's remained largely unchanged. Mainly because of the

limitations of RSS. We've been able to replace RSS for on platform distribution, which means that podcasts created on our platform are no longer held back by this outdated technology. This has opened up a new world of opportunity to add features and formats to the podcast listening experience that have never been possible before. So Spotify is now not only differentiated by our catalogue of content, but also by delivering a truly superior product for podcast listeners and creators.

Okay, so what is her name? It's hard to pronounce. It's, I think it's my or something. Okay. This will be on her tombstone. And this is this is the stupid part this is the stupid part of what she I don't know if this is all coming from her she the product lead? Is she in charge of the development or she she has a long title that I can't remember? Like, so so far so far. So far, we have no idea what we're talking about. We're gonna criticize her anyway.

Yeah, yeah. Not not having any idea what I'm talking about never stopped me from criticizes history shows RSS based ecosystems or whatever you want to call it platforms, communities that someone tries to centralize fails. And I would say Google was probably the best example. This was no blog, RSS. They couldn't make money, they could not make money off of Google Reader. And, of course, they didn't have control over any of that content, which is, you

know, that that goes hand in hand. So they so once they had grown it big enough, they decided you know, fuck that we can do this. Shut it down. And was a Google Plus that they came up with. Yeah, that's another product is Buzz, Google Buzz, but also Twitter. Twitter started as, as a you know, basically a huge platform for RSS that's what it was initially based. I think that they had RSS for a lot and they had even had RSS feeds of Twitter feeds. I remember subscribing to them. Yeah,

totally. And in that case, technically it just did not scale. So you know, there's the history shows that there's something about the free nature of the content created in an RSS feed. And its its necessity to be accessible everywhere. That just trying to harness that content by saying oh, you know, RSS that's fine but come over here this is better. Because that's the next step. Obviously, you know, they they want everyone to come to anchor and create your Spotify. Your

Spotify ready, podcast there. And somehow they believe with a reported you know, 2025 Depends on who you talk to. 25 I don't care if they're 50% of the market. That the day can suck it all in and they can be the people who are really that's why you know, they're all things audio you come here for your for your audio books, you come here for your your music, you come here for your podcast, and this by itself is a very limited thought scheme. Look at Netflix. This is where your ma us come

in. Because you're not going to be the only person with content. You're not going to be the only streamer here. Ultimately your you silly Swedes you're not going to be the only all audio platform forever. That's that's just not happening. The what they don't see II, this is like 10. I'm sure the next clip we'll get deeper into it. It's appropriate to say podcasting. The analogy would be, it was doing great. It was black and white television. And along came a bunch of nerds and engineers

and misfits. And we went click, click like, oh, shit, look, now we're broadcasting in Technicolor, and look with main TV sets. And Spotify comes along and said, our TV set is superior. So it comes down to what are the so called creators going to do? And how is Spotify going to manage that incredible influx of bullshit? And the fact that everybody wants? This is just the nature of RSS. Everybody wants that their their podcast to be available everywhere. Are they going to

start outputting crippled feeds? I mean, there's nothing sounds like like a good like a good idea. Basically, RSS is the giraffe. You don't fuck with the giraffe? Because it couldn't. Have you ever? Have you ever seen a giraffe? giraffe? The giraffe. Okay, caught me off guard that they want to name the giraffe after me at the Amsterdam Zoo. So I went to go see, that's a story. So I went to see Adam the giraffe, you know, the photo up before the zoo opened? You know,

it was cool, right? I was doing a morning show that was a whole tie in for the zoo. And you know, it's one of those things, literal mornings. For real. And so we go there with the crew. Right? And so we're just walking around, and it's a cute little giraffe. And we're walking through these stables you know, you can just like a stable where you can feed the animals and the back is obviously open because the draft is what 30 feet tall, whatever.

And then there's the mother. And I'm like, Oh, this is cool. So I get my my producers, hey, take a picture. I'm gonna go and so I stand in between, in front of the draft in between his legs. So my head is about probably about the not even the top of the giraffes, you know where their shoulder would be, I guess. And you know, and his neck is sticking way out. And taking pictures and, and the and one of the giraffe. People draft comes around the corner sees this happening and has this

horrified look, it says no, don't move. To what don't move, move very slowly walk very slowly towards me, as I did as commanded, of course so and they said you have no idea. The draft looks like it like a calm beast that's prehistoric, you get the reference. But if you make the wrong move, it can slice you in half. It's It's It's lakes can go up vertically and around it can do like a kung fu whirly wind and slice into bits. So

that's what RSS is. So go ahead make my day Spotify at me, I'm glad that we're getting the block tag in because I'm going to be an active promoter if, if you know Spotify. So do you want control over your content? Anybody who first of all, if you're if you're on Spotify, you already gave them complete ownership. They can do whatever they want. In the USA, you can get advertising, you know what Kentucky bourbon wild turkey

whatever, you know, they can do whatever they want. You know, and and here's the number one thing podcasters and I will promote this. If they keep going on this track and we get the blog tag. The number one place where they get their advertising is from the following sentence. Go ahead and subscribe to us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, and you're gonna start omitting Spotify, you're gonna say don't get on Spotify, those guys are rude and stupid.

So on a on a technical and they're selling your data from your RSS feed to over 100 data brokers. They're selling your audience to data brokers, over 100 of them receive information on your audience. Oh, really? James Christian said so. Oh, I believe that that? Yeah, I didn't know that. Of course. It's attribution. This isn't what it's all about. They don't give a shit about your podcast experience. They want to sell you your listeners, your audience. Ah.

Well, they talked about that. I don't think I clipped it but they did talk about that that you know, with traditional RSS. You want to be more intimate with your audience and know your audience better so No, it really say that. Yeah. And so they were like, you know, creators want more connection with their audience in in the past with RSS, you know, that outdated technology. They all you could get was an IP address.

Oh, hey, wait for your luck. Oh, okay. So what they're saying is no interactivity. Well, yeah, I think they were building it that way, but They're probably mean it's like we just know a whole lot more about about these people because we just were all up in their car. And we're I mean, we know everything they do. We don't just know an IP address. We know everything about them, because they're actually signed in. Yeah, that's great. We'll do it if people who I mean, this show is

not on Spotify, not on my shows are on Spotify. I've had to continue to have to police them. Because some someone pirates are one of my feeds, and they go up there if there's no, if you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, let me know it has to go away. RSS. RSS is RSS is not a it's not a protocol. It's not a platform. It's not a technology. It's a dream. It's It is a beautiful dream and field. Hold on way, way, way, way, way. Where is it? I don't have it.

Nevermind, I'm sorry. No, I'm too late on the draw RSS. RSS is a data delivery format. That's what it is. It doesn't matter what that data delivery format would have been within podcasting. Like it's, in one sense. In one sense, RSS is critical to podcasting. In another sense, it's completely irrelevant. So it it's it's critical, because it's there. And it's the standard that we've all adopted. It's irrelevant, in the sense that of what it is. It's just a day to delivery

format. It could have easily been yaml, JSON, tamo, CSV, it could have been any, any format. Hello, HTML, can I mean, someone just put this in the chat. JS? RSS is off platform? I mean, that's the branding right there. By definition, by definition, it's off platform. Exactly. Yeah. But it's just an as a sort of accident of history. That that RSS was the thing that was that was the syndication format of

choice. At the moment, when you had the idea for including the enclosure, it could have been some other format, and that would have been fine. So I mean, our RSS is the thing we have, and it's fine, it does its job fine. So you ask what is its job? Its job is to describe a set of criteria to up to an app to decide to describe a bunch of data about a podcast episode to an application. And in that job, it does it perfectly well and perfectly fine. It RSS was never the sole piece of of the puzzle

when it comes to podcasting. The the open podcast ecosystem has always relied on on a set or a stack or, or whatever you want to call a stack of protocols to meet it relies on XML, which I mean RSS itself relies on XML, it relies on mp3 compression. There would have been no no podcasting. Without it. I mean, everything served over HTTP. Every RSS is just one. It's a critical component of the stack, but only because of the fact that it was there at the beginning. And that's what we've

adopted. So to to, to say that anything RSS quote unquote, can't do is somehow, like a limitation on what the open podcast ecosystem itself can do. Well is not is not right. It's arrogance. And I do want everyone to know we do have our guest, patiently waiting and we'll bring him in momentarily. It's just I didn't expect for us to go this long about this topic, but it deserves it. If you look at the analogy, that

let's just call radios, radio stations, that transmitters. We don't need no stinking transmitters, but Buzzsprout has a transmitter Lipson has a transmitter bluebirds, a transmitter transistors, everyone's a transmitter. The just cast is a transmitter the signal they send out into the ether is the RSS feed. Yeah, it's a signal and that signal is there for anybody the concept initially is for anybody to pick up into then resolve you know to turn into into sound that it's a

radio as basically a radio receiver. Any any company is Who has the arrogance? To think that because they build a better radio that therefore they're going to win are idiots? Yeah, they're idiots. I mean, I'm sorry. It makes no business sense. And it's very arrogant to think that they can own they can own stuff. And by claiming they, Oh, we have 4 million on

platform. It's incredibly arrogant, short sighted. And I mean, I can't, I can't say it's cultural, because man, the Swedes, they do hokey shit like Abba and it's successful for 100 years. So that's hard. That's that's a really lame one because they actually music wise. Sweden has some of the the the most success. I won't say the best, but the most successful songwriters and pop music today. But it's just arrogant to think that your radio because you know, view and in addition, this

has never worked. This has always been this always been the strategy. Sony will own CBS, we're going to own that we're going to own the production and the movie theaters and the televisions and the radios and the cameras. And how Sony doing? Yeah, you just can't do it all. And if anyone could have done this, Mr. Analyst, Jim Cramer? Why wouldn't Apple have done it? Those guys had the radio for 20 years,

exclusively almost. I mean, it almost is not not entirely clearly, but almost exclusively, they owned it for a while. So in a big way, so. So anyone who goes to Spotify, thinking they have to use god, yeah, I don't care. Do whatever you want. Yeah. Well, you want to round it out spot. Yeah, that last clip? Yeah, sure. Another way we've been able to innovate on the format. We've made podcasts more interactive, the format. we've iterated on the format, oh, this is great. We've

been able to innovate on the format. We've made podcasts more interactive, finally enabling a deeper, more intimate connection between creators and their fans. Man, one of our favorite things about podcasting is the unique connection it enables between creators and listeners. By the way, when you say fans, it's so denigrating towards an interactive process. If you're talking about interactivity,

these people are doing something other than being fans. So what kind of interaction Do you have other than Can I be your groupie? Can I get a signature? These are fans. They don't have fans. We have developers that everybody's developing this show. Yes. One of our favorite things about podcasting is the unique connection it enables between creators and listeners. It's intimate posts, voices are directly in listeners ears. But until now, podcasting has been a one way street. Creators publish

shows and their audiences listen. Traditionally, RSS has been limited to anonymized, aggregated analytics. And even those are limited to what can be determined from IP addresses. Because of these limitations, fans have never had a good way to reach their favorite creators directly. Oh, oh, oh my God. They can't use email. They haven't figured out how to use email. Oh, no, we can't leave a comment anywhere. We Oh, no. What? That's MDM that's mal does miss this and Mal information

that is not true. Well, there's all kinds of things that are not true. Because of these limitations. Fans have never had a good way to reach their favorite never actually never, but now never, never at all. Our first way of addressing this was with q&a and polls, both texts, that can be q&a and polls, just bringing the house down to q&a and polls, both text based questions that can be posed by the show's creators and surface to listeners in the Spotify app.

Hey, I want to ask you a question. Do you like my show as a yes to No. Three? Kind of four? No pinion. Oh, and by the way, what are those polls for those polls, I would wager that that data goes right into the same funnel that sends everything off to the data brokers, we get more, you're actually you're rude to your fans, you're selling your fans out.

These interactive features make it easy for listeners to engage with the people behind their favorite podcasts, and for creators to hear from their audience directly on Spotify. These features are available now to all anchor creators around the world. There it is. We've heard from many creators that q&a and polls have been crucial in helping them develop engaged audiences. coming back for more. And this is just the beginning of our interactive tools for podcasts. We're really excited

to introduce lots of new ways for creators and their fans. To connect with each other okay, so they had so they claimed that RSS is a one way street and it does not enable interactivity. And what's the worst worst? They say podcasting has been a one way street because of RSS

because of RSS. So they've jettisoned RSS so now they're in now there they can unleash this creative you know, juice juice unleashed this torrent of Creative Juice juice it's just yes what he's gonna tsunami over the top of the industry and when and what that consists of is q&a and polls. Can you see that

juice? The juice is q&a and polls that's so juicy is super juicy and nobody could care one bit about either one of those the show hopefully someone from Spotify with this fantastic poll and questionnaire technology could listen to could listen to what was what was what was their their super juice again, q&a and polls, q&a and polls, okay, Spotify. Now, if you're an anchor creator, chi anchor creators, but you enjoying your q&a and polls, pulled my hold my beer. Hello, right now this is

podcasting. 2.0 We are live as we say in the RSS biz, we're lit. And I'd like to demonstrate some interactivity. Oh, man, Dave and I are having troubles paying our rent. Could somebody please send a booster? Oh, there it is. Thank you very much. Stephen beheld it 20 222 sets. Please send the booster Graham with some interactivity. I need something back from our fans. I don't feel like RSS is fulfilling the dream of podcasting. Could someone please, please help us pay the

rent and at the same time interact with us? Certainly. There's some fan out there, who cares? Steven be boosted and said, Hey, guys, there it is. I wish I wish there was a way for fans to reach out to their favorite creators. And there's 5000 sas fermitas. He's helping pay the rent. See if there was I would reach out to you too, since you're with two of my favorite creators. Maybe we should hop on Spotify. Steven B. That seems to be the place where we can interact.

Yeah, you can make some polls. Told us. Oh, God. Oh, title. Hold on a second. I told you. All right. Thank you. Well, thank you, Spotify lady. I'm just gonna run just real quick. Just real quick. Josh, maybe Josh may be dead. Let's see if he's still alive. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a special very patient guests with us today to join in the board meeting. He is the creator of just cast, which is very interesting as a podcast host as an interesting system and method. And from that right now.

We welcome Josh Chen to the board meeting. Josh, how you doing? Hi, Josh, thank you for having me here. It's great to have you. It's great to have you. That's Do you have? Do you have any commentary on the Spotify? Integration of RSS? Yeah, I love the topic. I can't wait to join me. But I want to comment on what Adam talked about that earlier, saying that, in some ways, there's a war with a lot be wise, and people will just quit there, and then create this status tag. So I'm from

China. So I still have some condition there. And a few years ago, some people contact me and say, they build this wall a bunch of devices there and tell you to create a car and then they tell you to push your status. Like right, so how would they scam that how it scammed? I don't know. And I was like, I don't interested in that business. But they would create this icon and click download so that no ad would get more downloads, and then you can show

that to the investor or something like that. Of course I always I always cannot get put together like, how do we resolve this then podcast? People rely on your status tag to determine how much they're going to pay you for your advertising. Well, wait a minute, Josh, you can't be talking sense here on this podcast, that those numbers are certified by the IAB Surely you know that have you not paid your $50,000 to have those certified by the Uber Lords at the IAB?

No, but I yeah, I don't know. I sincerely don't know. And I think podcasting doesn't may be in a good position to kind of solve this problem maybe like doing more integration with have more namespace, cost platform so that a video will be more honest to each other, like the air podcast app pair up at that shelter and system like we are on this standard like they, they, they push better information. And then we kind of

have something in between. I assume there's some genius that is data scientists can pick out which one is very visual and choose that hopefully, we will have to unify and put this whole thing better. Well, that's actually been been one of the biggest problems, as far as I understand. First of all, a lot of apps just don't want to do that. They don't want to be snooping on their founder users and selling that. Or even if it's an even if they're not

selling it somewhere, it's being monetized. But there's we've actually wasn't at the GUID thing, Dave, that we looked at for a while we had it, we had a system to do it. And nobody plaidy Yeah, no, and no one cared to pick it up. And I'll tell you why. Because no one wants you to know the real numbers. Real numbers may not be as favorable as people make them out to be. Yeah, if you take away all the fake numbers, and within podcasting, it's it's just not it's not the same, you can't get

paid on that. You can't get paid on fake, don't fake numbers. I mean, on real numbers, you have to get paid on the fake ones. And I don't know, do you? Do you do any sort of your your model in in just cast is really interesting, because you, you allowed Dropbox, hosted feeds. And so I want to ask you a couple of things. I guess, first of all, like, Do you have a way of doing any sort of stats? Through that?

Yeah. So we we do. So we allow people to put just cut one special thing with the right people can just jet and drop that file to their job boss until you pick that out to Dropbox API. And but we actually shove in there to correct that is that I need to do some right. It was posted to collect the data, then I can have some basis that is there. But those that is that isn't going to be so good. From our Yeah, so that so do you have a Can somebody put their own?

Like, could they bring their own statistics, statistics, I guess, like try to track it through their own systems? It's it's really just Dropbox? Um, well, I guess I don't understand the question. I think. So because we the hosting me, I kinda like hosting the file a on our system at the end. So that Okay, so the Dropbox is just the interface to get the files in? Is that the idea? Yes, yes. Yes. So, yeah, at the end, I think this will happen.

No, did you choose this? So that people what was the reasoning behind doing it with with Dropbox so that people always have their own content with them, and you're basically providing an interface to create the feed and you're mirroring mirroring the contents of the Dropbox? Is that how it works?

Yes, yes, yes. Well, we actually have two different paths. So if you are a personal user, then you are not doing publisher, your RSS feed to anywhere, you're just somehow get an audio book or whatever audio content, you want to listen that to a podcast app. And just password, Paulo be a very good place for you to get started. Because we host an order file from Dropbox, you put there and then we get the file. And we are actually

using the dropbox blend to host that. So the kind of appeals in their bandwidth. Okay, but that's kind of your free tier is you, you leverage Dropbox for your free tier, and then if people start to get more downloads than you, you offer them an upgrade, which is pretty cheap. I saw like $9 and then and then you get then that you get mirrored on your servers. Yes, yes. How you doing?

Did you have to? Did you have to fine tune that where you figured out how much bandwidth Dropbox was willing to serve before they started you know, having a problem so far, we didn't have any such problem at the moment but we have some very small so I guess it doesn't matter to drop off that you have to pay. Yeah, I guess is do you how do you know is is there a limit where you would contact a podcaster and say, you know your your so your show is starting to get this many this many hits.

You really need to upgrade. I don't maybe we should but I don't Okay, yeah, it's just it's still new Roadsters probably just knew enough to where you don't know those limits. Yeah. Well, actually, no, we have been around since 2014, or 15. I've been doing the doing with with the full Dropbox integration. Yes. From day one, we are full Dropbox integration. Oh, so that probably means you. I had no idea. You've been

around that long. So that means that you were probably you probably started this back when Dropbox had their full public folder. Feature. Yes, no, but because we kind of care about people's security, we only ask them to authorize our app folder. So we only see the content from that folder inside there. That's just us folder, we can only access that folder, I cannot access a brand else. Gotcha. John Claude thing.

Okay, that makes sense. So we're in the, in the, in the spirit of Spotify, saying that there's been no innovation in in RSS. Well, then, you know, I'm looking at all of the features that just cast supports, chapters, funding, location, lock tagged person tag, pod, ping, season tag, the sound bytes, trailered. And value. I mean, you support like a whole

ton of stuff. You're literally like, just like eight different, you know, nine different tags that you support that are all fairly new, you know, like almost brand new. We also support a medium tab as well. So now you can Newsday audiobooks. Well, excellent. Nice, excellent. That's nice little aside. Yeah. Holy crap. Put that in your pull request. Yes. Excellent. Okay, Josh, knows this. Have you been since you've been running this

from 2014? Is it your main your main business? Do you do other things is this clearly it must be doing okay for you because you've kept with it, congratulations. No, well, but it's not my main business. I'm just, I'm a software engineer working for a company today. And before I was actually a financial analyst, doing some health care and other stuff, and happened to lie to poker. So what what was the what was the spark? What made you want to start getting into this into the hosting business?

Yeah. So this is a project with my roommate that and they in college, so we are in Los Angeles, you can compare gender chocolate to their back. So since I quit, after we graduated from college, we started going to work and then we need to dry out commute times were bad. So we always need to find some content to plan when we are trying on the podcast were made for people like you. You needed some you needed some drive time content. Yes. I think that tender day i 2013 14. That wasn't that many

podcasts as today. There's more other YouTube thing, and then we are the audiobook we can find online. So we want to attention that's our job. Just can't combine job. Daddy. Yeah, surely just for our own at the beginning. Nice. This how it always and is it? Is it doing? Well. I mean, it's obviously it's self sustaining. And you have a lot of I don't know how many customers you have. How many how many people do you think are using? I don't exactly know how many people are using today. But I

think there are about 200 people are paying today. It's not so good. But it is a project of one, I guess, on the side that I can use feature every single day. Because I like it, I guess I'm looking at the I'm looking at our stats and I'm showing that just cat what we have is 287 just cast feeds in our index. Is that interesting. That's about right. I think so. Yeah. I'm not doing a good job of checking any statistics on my desk. Steven Be just sent a booster gram row a duck's Joshua, we

already answered this question. How many paying users would you estimate you answered that? He said I saw your earlier just cast work posted on Heroku. And it's come along with Heroku and has come a long way that looks great, awesome job. He says. Yeah, yeah, you watch on Hulu. And I've been since pandemic we migrate away from Hulu to something else, which make that easier and cheaper. Heroku I've

had enough. I've heard there's a lot of people that started on Heroku that are they're leaving that platform just because of those things because of It can get pretty expensive. Is that was that your? Was that your experience? Also, I, I think we get started cool to just cast was written in Ruby

on Rails. So back in the day, Hulu to have a very have done a very good job being calculated baseline deployments, and especially with Ruby on Rails. And I think, and, but, and they were overall Meteor stuff that when they were just yesterday, and now they are I think they're part of Salesforce or something like that. And that's right. Yeah, they get bored. Yeah. Yeah. And then we, yeah, that's why we wrote to them because it's cheaper. And then like, everybody's catching up to date

with these like deployments and special soccer. So they are not that much special, I guess. Compare them, but their day. And that's super awkward. This is why we migrate away. Yeah, that makes sense. So is it still a Ruby on Rails? You still Ruby on Rails application? Okay. Yeah, it is a Ruby on Rails back end. And then the finance written in React? Since you have such a kind of a simple to understand and elegant starting spot with the with how you've set it up with Dropbox?

Have you been following our conversation about? Here we go music 2.0 About, about putting music into into apps and have the value for value streaming? What do you this seems like that would be great. This type of setup that you have, obviously, with a different interface for musicians might be really good because people feel comfortable like, Oh, I'm putting my stuff

in here. You know, here's my cost is known songs. If someone's getting, you know, 10s of 1000s of have access to the songs and the streaming SATs, well, you know, maybe it's time to upgrade, but in general, I think most most Dropbox accounts would probably suffice quite well. Have you considered looking into this?

Yeah. And should we start? Well, first, I learn about this new tab, the medium for the music tab writes for Robert, they will they will contact me I think he was trying to put up his new set on the podcast 2.0. And, and going to I think she was using just constant. I don't know you're still using just cars. But I think he's mostly just holding his music. We've just

cars. And then it is on podcasting that now today. Yeah, so I am very excited to have this new opportunity with like, podcasts in the US is no longer no longer just podcast is like a thing, right? It could be when you're setting the record on your site or blog or any type of content. People can just put it there. And at the end, it should be like internet 2.0. How do you how do you decide which new features to support?

Do you? Do you just try to do everything? Or do you have a way that you prioritize? Well? Yes, no. So I don't prioritize but whoever show you some user feedback, some user requests, and I will do that right away. Otherwise, I would just show this year and trying to implement as many things base from podcasting guests as possible. And working on that when I don't have any other user feedback or suggestion at the moment. That's excellent. Now I was thinking about podcasting 2.0 And we have some

some new people who came into podcasts index dot social. By the way, Steven Be Nice touch there with the curio caster all of a sudden, we've got a music tab. Hello. That was that was quick that went from idea to execution very quickly. That is the thing that I've been thinking about most is how does value for value really work with music. And I think that with that we could not have possibly done the music stuff until we

had a couple other things set up. Which by you know, by fortuitous timing, they have been set up because value for value, the system needs the feedback loop. And that in the feedback loop in a podcast is different from a song. Your song isn't you're not going to create a new version of the song, or even release a new song every week and thank everybody for their booster grams. So in this case, I think leaderboards become very important in apps so people can show and we'll

display their appreciation. In fact, some funny enough some of the functionality that that we argued about so much with fountain is much more appropriate. With threaded booster grams I think live lit will be incredibly important artists will will start to answer Spencer and April Kirby,

they kind of already figured this out. But having your music feed and then having your your tracks or if you want to do by album and all that kind of stuff, we have to figure out the seasons become albums etc. You know hosting either a live chat, you know, just going live, basically. And then, you know, talking to people, like an Instagram Live or YouTube live performing live these things will all be very important. But

I thought one of the best things we can do. And this is where we're going to we're actually going to kick Spotify, SAS, it's going to be pretty funny, where they're trying to desperately capture podcasts and we're going to we're going to wish right by them on our tricycle in the music world if I want so my biggest frustration has been I want to play music on my podcast, and I can't play music that is licensed through the traditional system. So how do I do this with music that is 2.0

and value for value enabled. If you could have like an abstraction of so let's say I want to play a track from Dave Jones. He has a wonderful track called What does that track you had there Dave? Forgot was ream or to the ocean or prayer the prayer I knew it was some hokey like that Homa. The prayer I'm just kidding, because actually, it's quite nice that track that's from an old band I was in Ireland, the rights are fully on

the rise. It has a little bit of a sweet it has little bit of a YouTube guitar vibe in there. Maybe that's just me. No, and that's not you. But the guy that was the guitar player in our band, he was a huge YouTube, YouTube nut he ride. Okay, so. So I have that track. And that track has a value block attached to it that has four different people. So when I play this song, I would like by timecode, I would like my podcast to say anything you're streaming right now, or anything

you boost right now, I want you to send X percent. So now let that is to be worked out. But let's say if I'm doing 10 Don't doing 10 songs, I'm doing an hour long show, I want 50%. And I want the other 50% to go equally to each each. Each track

that I played. And the reason I say abstraction is I would just like to put in Okay, Dave Jones, the prayer I put in this extraction abstraction block, and from 10 minutes to 13 minutes in this podcast 50% of all streams and booths go to that block, which then by itself expands into four different payments. Does that make sense? So you're, you're saying that you you sort of go one level higher than the actual value block and put a layer on top of it.

I mean, just to make it easy, it was just to make it easy. I'm thinking, I'm talking like a technologist who's out of his out of his butt basically. But I'm looking at it from a kind of a simplicity standpoint, is I, where I might even go to podcast index, you know, I was like, Okay, I need to copy this song, I want to play this, I copy something. And then that goes into my feed creation software at this at this timestamp. I want this block of addresses to get 50% divided as determined by

that block. And then and then the next three minutes has to go to the next block. So for me, it just, I just want to click Oh, click that I don't need to know who's behind it. So I don't want to be putting in four and the splits and all that shit. That has to be a predetermined split that I can just reference somehow, then and put in and of course it has to fire off at that moment. So it's extra work for the apps, obviously.

Yeah, so you're saying like, you're talking about doing this dynamic value block is what Steven B just called it? Yeah, so like yeah, very Yeah, dynamic or virtual value value. But so you're like you're doing this because music has a different like it's just not you have to change the Wii for the model, not change the model, but change the mechanism in order to like make it fit. The mute Yes, yes.

Yes track. Exactly. So, you know, the the feedback loop, I think, mainly can come from people playing the song, rolling back, you know, throwing SATs back as predetermine And by the by the Dynamic Value block, talking about the music, but also letting people know that they are directly supporting the artist. So now, you know now when someone boosts my show the artists and the splits in that artists block also get that

booster gram. You see, now you've just explained, it's like signing up one user and we get two and a half in return. Yeah. Yes, the magic money machine. So, as Steven said, add a value block to the chapter spec. And then you just use the chapters as the glue. Oh, now we're running with scissors. Not a bad idea. I like what you think Josh put a make chapters be able to point to different values, value setups. I think display idea also does some bias value. Soundbite Yep.

Yep. Yep. Yes. To get one. Yeah. Okay, so now we just need to, it would be nice to have a dynamic valid, you know, a value block, you can just reference for a song. Now, I'm not quite sure how we do that. Technically. What a Josh, what is the tip jar? Took joy is the kinetic sportive, but I'm not spying or shy about it. Try so that people can just spend money from there. I'll collect money from stroy. Okay, interesting. So this work? What made you think of doing that?

I think, like video, a lot of other people was doing that. I'm just trying to follow other people. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that that's, that's, you know, the money, the monetizing the monetizing data, Spotify, people in the United talked a lot about that. And in, you know, this, this is a solved it's assault thing now a bit, because if you they talked so much about bringing advertising way down to the bottom level?

And I think, I think the soft approach now is that ad when it comes to low download numbers on shows, the direct payments, you know, sending value for value model is really the only thing that works and tip jar would be, you know, the tipping ideas, you know, is a ver is a miss version of that. Is that you at that at that level. You advertising doesn't work. And so you have you that's that's the thing that works.

Yeah, I, I, I want to show I want to share my my, my idea on the nice thing is for podcasts, I think not everybody tried to make money or make any money or are people just want to put together a show or something. Some something they would like to share with theirs. There have been a conversation and podcast that I don't love. That's a tip jar for them. That would be great. But if even they don't get money, they don't feel upset, right. Just like I go to the basketball court and play

basketball in my face. Nobody wants to pay to watch us. And there's a hand has that upheaval, maybe it's a smaller set of more niche podcasts have been support. And thanks to Polycom, I think it would be a great idea and where you guys are enabling that. And I guess there's another one, which is maybe one or 2% are doing very good job. And they want to become a commercial success. And I think they were looking for a more more defined approach to monetize their content. Yeah, yeah. Thanks.

So it really sounds like you're really right in the pocket there of podcasting. 2.0 You know, you you're small enough where you can get stuff done quickly implemented, you know, there's a lot of kind of self self serve bits to it. It's really nice, man. It's it's a nice, nice thing you've built there. Yeah, it's nice for you guys to put all this cooling the learning space up is like a wonderland for me, like I can

realize face to interact with them. And yeah, I think this one for me as a programmer as well. Let's before we thank some people, Dave. Very, very good news. I think you probably got this email as well. I'll read it to you because I was really excited. I haven't I mean, it's just I could not believe it. We are the recipient of the safest content award. 2022 now read the email. Hello podcast index team.

My name is Philip. I am the Chief Content Manager at Sur dot L Y. I am happy to inform you that podcasts index.org has been identified as one of the safest websites offered to users in 2022. Please add this award widget to your web sight. Oh, I'm so good. I'm gonna do that immediately with all the JavaScript connected to it claim your award. Sounds like a fantastic I haven't I haven't seen one of these since the top five of the web. Do you remember that? Top five was a web award. Those guys were

brilliant. The Alexa 100 or whatever, nada? Well, the top five of the Webawards way before that, and they literally gave you a badge that would point back to their website where they had advertising running. It was fantastic. Like and, and we had like clients like Reebok to look, we we want to top five of the web award, put it on our website, we're like, yeah, yeah. They get a little bit of

this. Yes, little scissor that. And then the, we get in. Both Dave and I are on the info at podcast, index.org email, email address. And we get a lot of interesting requests. And I've fished one out as well from Kathy, titled, unpopular podcast. Hi there. I don't know if you can help me, but I'm trying to find stats and links for podcasts that few people are playing people for? Is it possible to find this info? I'm trying to create a podcast to bring attention to neglected

podcasts? I thought that was I responded to cat but you do. I bet you did. In my my advice to her was abandoned this go to anchor? Because the truth is that, you know, out of 4.1 million podcasts on the index, probably only about 20% of those have any listenership whatsoever. And so like, I mean, you you, like just download the whole index. There you go. That's that's your answer. You know, it's interesting, just as a as a number, let's just say not

800,000, but a million podcasts of any action. There's a billion dollars in advertising, I'm told. So that's, that would mean a million CPMs. Am I saying that right? No, that would mean, a million CPMs would be like $23 million? The it's just hard to work out the math where all the money's going? I don't know. Yeah, I don't believe in getting the money. The highest I've ever saw you pick up the stats on the index homepage, every now and then. The highest I've ever seen that 90 day number

of podcasts with 500,000. Maybe it's bumped 600? A couple of times. I mean, it's just, that's really all you got. There's a good there's, there's about 600 shows that are constantly publishing now that may be rotating, and maybe some falling offense I'm coming on. But sure. It's not gonna it's not more than that. And to wonder those shows are on the just cast. That's right. Do it or 97. Yeah. Well, I mean, I know abroad a

nice Oh, it feels appropriate before for this. If you want to hit it, think about it. Think about it. Oh, yeah. I can't wait for someone to clip that bit out. Especially the bit where we show the interactivity of that old RSS technology, think about it. outdated, outdated, are still bad for this lady. She didn't know what she was getting into. She's smoking the Spotify crack. I tried to register block of phi. In every variation. It's all gone. It's all gone. Even

try dot app, you know, like, fuck it, I'll pay 50 bucks. If I can get block of five? Nah, they probably smartly registered all of that already. You don't pay 1000s and 1000s of dollars in renewal fees a year, you won't get another one that you'll never use. I have been paring it down a little bit. Good. So as part of our monetization scheme, we employ something that's worked very well for 15 years on several podcasts, it's value for value. That means that you need to return some value to keep

this going. The podcast the project, you just heard we have developers who support this. If you're a developer, you could be a software developer, you could be a content developer, you could be someone who develops ideas and gives them to podcasters. Everybody's a developer in one way or the other. What kind of value did you get out of this? Did you learn something? Maybe you're an investor, maybe you just went short on Spotify. This is not financial advice. It's not maybe

you've already made some money off of us somehow. Determine what this is worth to you and your world and send that back to us. You can do it through the Fiat fund coupon route, which is Pay Pal go to podcast index.org scroll to the bottom Big Red donate button. You can also send us Bitcoin on chain I checked the chain no one ever uses that everyone bitched about, Hey man, you should take on chain and your QR code. No one uses it

and then they never do it. No one It happens all the very Now we have not I want to say no one but and people who do they don't typically add a note. So I don't know where it's coming from. So I can't thank anybody. It's really odd. Let me see if we got anything here. Anything 11 hours ago 30 318 Keep up the great work guys don't know who it's from

unfortunately. And there was nothing else. That was it. Let me read some of the live booster grams as they came in Carolyn 3333 safest podcast running with scissors 6969 from Carolyn. Hello. diggin The scissors are thank you for podcasting. 2.0 17,910 from Mike Newman so easy to boost live now it's fun. Don't just stand there boost just stand there. Boost 500 from ambitious would large still have had a fit if the leaked Metallica album was streaming so streaming sets? problem now he

would have a horse of the pussy boy like that. We already got Steven B's question there. Chad Pharaoh 3333 This shit is lit it is Mitas helping to pay the rent. And those are our I think most of our all of our pre show and live booster grams. Who else you have on the list there, Dave? Well, I got some pay pals. Number one good because with the price of Bitcoin, people either need to up the Satoshis or send us Fiat. Yeah. Get out of your ruts get out of here. Get out of your

habits. Well, this one came in right under the wire. I mean, just like, you know, deadline point. Benjamin Richardson from rss.com. Ben and Albertus and his $500 through PayPal. Oh, man. Shot Caller 20 is Blaze own. I am Paula, thank you so much. I love that the hosting business is doing so much to keep this project going. That's really, really appreciated. Well, let me stuff like the comments for Spotify. It just, it just exemplifies the reason. I mean, it's just

misinformation. And they there's about lies about lies. Yeah, I was just Indian, Indian. Adam and Dave. We just wanted again to send back some of the value we get for the podcasting 2.0 initiative. Keeping RSS relevant in podcasting is essential to keeping it open. Thank you for all you do to lead these efforts. The [email protected] Thank you, Jean. Thank you. [email protected] Yes. Is a listener thank you to [email protected] we thanks guys. We should put them up maybe they could get a safest content.

Probably we could probably get them in a war. What did you see what Alberto did with all the AI to get rid of the sex worker spam? I mean, I know nearly the safest you know, I'm telling you. I talked I talked about it. I know agenda. Oh, did you? I said that. Yeah. And I said it again. You know escorts you're making a big mistake start an actual podcast. Do it. Yeah. Or I mean, they don't leave your home they don't leave your website. Right.

Josh did you get you I see you have a free trial thing. Did you have you seen any of that spam signups? I I don't look at my I don't look at the spam any any data of just passed away often, but I do see two I think a few years ago I do experience somebody like putting a log file into Dropbox to just with just class and then they get access fee and then they will migrate that to anchor because it's easier to stay right yeah from us and then the impulse to enter or to anchor or

something like that. They need to do that one by one and I and then once I see that I just put them off. But they were make they were using yen to make onboarding to anchor spam easier, man that's terrible. That's not how escorts do business. Okay, we got we got another week PayPal donation this week from Rene. Rene ding Nigar Nigar Nigar de que en IgG e I'm sorry if I've butchered that. NYG can continue I'm not sure why the case. Now. Now. I want to know KNK in IgG II kinnexa Conesa.

Where's where's he from? Renee, can you do not no no it's not so Got a girl's boy he's that he's on podcast Indystar social as K NGGE I think that is I think that's his handle but we I didn't say where he's from us so he sent a sent a note he says, Here's my drop in the bucket. It's been a while since my last donation I love the podcast every Friday and the index is a must have loved that you push podcasting forward in so many different ways. Also damn smart

to push in that many diverse directions. Tech social and payments. I've added a little bit over the t shirt amount in case for case for costs of sending to the Netherlands. Oh, from the Netherlands. He's Dutch. kinnexa That was right. Okay, neat. Kenisha Alright, in the meantime, let's see how do kinnexa Yeah, pretty good. Okay, cool. T shirt if there are any left of course, of course, he is always on demand baby on demand. That's right. I find many occasions lately where I would

have loved to wear it. More podcast happenings going on lately in the Netherlands. Have a great weekend and keep podcasting. Thank you, Renee. All right, man. Thank you. Can you Nika Tanisha. Like can Nikki from Greece can Nikki can you? Can etha can you go? Can you okay? It gets worse the more I do it, so I'm gonna stop. I've gotta make good on the Instagrams. Oh, I missed one last week from an extremely important person. Roy Oh, Miss ROI, boost ROI get all bent out of shape.

He messaged me and said Hey, you missed my boost. I was like, Oh man, you should have said was I didn't see anything come in must be your app. Clearly, this is a breeze blah blah. And not a me problem. 50 54,321 stats from last week. Yeah, this is Dave needs. Dave needs a sociology and philosophy podcast. I'll boost that. Yeah, sure. We'll all boosted see, sorry about that. Roy. And we got another one from Roy for this week. 54321 54,321 SAS through breeze and he just says booze. Yeah

thank you, bro. I got you this week Roy. Roy really appreciate it. Is Mick from the mere mortals podcast conference in a row ducks 2222 He says I like that idiot and value for value in a booster gram was all that was needed for Adam to think of me. My marketing is working. Very well done. Karen. Yeah, good job. Dion's in this one 999 SAS and he says, I love dog catcher. I wish someone would work on it. Someone still makes

money on it. It's sad. I even told him clients can make money and still no joy. You know, there was a interesting that's a someone sent me like a panic email. Listen, and it was not dog catcher, the dog catcher thing we figured out and I guess whatever, podcast addict, and it had already looped in the support desk, and I caught him I feel uncomfortable. You know, it's like, like looping me into the conversation like, well, this is not working. And here's, you know, like linking me and

podcast addict like now. Okay, now I gotta figure out what's going on with your system. And it appeared for a little bit. Although this podcast addict pull from the index. They offer that as an option they can pull from either one, what do they pull from the API? They just pull from the feed? Yeah. It perfectly API's for some things for so if I have 10 shows listed in my feed, and someone somehow has downloaded show 11, do they still get the chapter information? That's undefined behavior.

So we thought actually, that that was the problem. And I thought it was going to be an interesting topic, too, because I've never really had this issue. No one's ever complained about it at least. And then we figured out and this is something that is occurring more often, particularly on the Apple platform. My no agenda files are over 100 megabytes. And the amount of emails I get from people saying can't get the show. It's not downloading doesn't work die. They're all on

their cell connection. And there's the limit factor that I think I don't know if that's it app level, if it's abstracted up there, or if it's set somewhere down below there is a limit for downloading files over 100 megabytes on iOS, and, and this has caused many a loop in in troubleshooting. Interesting. Well, what do you have The file size limit Josh on just cast. All right. I don't think so. Okay, but this is the app side. Dave.

Yeah, I was just wondering if just wondering if there was a if you may have if the hosting companies may have seen these problems before, with with large, you know, like, because I would assume that if, if listeners start complaining to the pipe, like, like he did with you, that list, start complaining to the creators that then the creator, the host, wouldn't the podcast Creator would then go to the hosting company and say, Hey, is there anything wrong with my setup?

That's right. I don't know how many people are doing 100 megabyte files. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes. Probably Probably the the exception, not the rule. No, I just thought I'd mentioned that. Nick. Sin is 2222 sets. He says a tweet from Kevin rook mentioned near the start. Oh, that's right. Yes. You ought to listen around. Actually. Let me let me take a look right now because that refers to the number of value for value enabled podcasts currently on

the platform. We had a huge day. I love these new stats, Dave. Because I can see see every single day how many new podcasts have been value for value enabled? Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad to provide that I just think about it every day. I'm sure you do picking up on there I'm literally keeping track in a spreadsheet. Okay, it looks at it this time

on this day. Yeah. 7370 we're doing over we have days we're adding 50 to 60 podcast value for value and the value blog Yeah, sorry I wouldn't we need split those out see how many are three speak and how many are other three speak in other doesn't matter. I mean, do no, no, no, really? I'm just curious three speak uses that don't they? Or is that is Yeah. Or is there like 3000 that are not really used? And that's the three speak? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think it's just I think three speak

automatically generate the media goes in. So I'm just curious. I'm just curious. layman. Andy layman, our buddy 7777 SAS through caster magic. He says boost episodes. Thank you striper boosts strapper best or highest striper boost, April Kirby 8888. And he says keep it fruity boys. Boost we shall see, by the way, OBS crashed a long time ago. Not streaming you need to stream yard is really quite simple works. Yeah. Ahlborn Citadelle 49,490 SATs. He says release the best pod

release the best of podcasting. 2.0 on vinyl. I need some ceremony. JCD boost please. Boost boost boost of vinyl. Yes. Your ceremonial podcasting 2.0 vinyl Yeah, we're it's almost done just making the chapters. It'll be it'll arrive as a separate album to picture disc. You stick it out, you'd lay it on top of the of the regular von dribs got Bruce Wayne and podcasting since 22 to 22 Cast Matic and he says, Can you guys talk about possible tax

implications of receiving sets? How should things be tracked and reported? Interesting. Interesting us that I'm reaching out to to the lawyer so you feel come on the tax, the tax attorney, debit card, Danny, no, no, not not debit debit card, Danny's figuring out a whole different level. We'll as the guy who gave us the opinion on, you know how the IRS eventually will be instructed, or you know, the real definitions of the law. We'll see if we can get him on. I'm still still working on that.

Trying to make sure we don't get billed for it. But But I'll tell them that we'll we'll put a split in the value block and that will send it right right to his office. Yeah, just for people that don't know and Eric Erickson, he had to leave and get to some other stuff because his life was busy for him. So we had to get some other people that you know, account to do some accounting, back office stuff that he was doing. So Adams got this cast of, like this cast of people

that I've never even met don't know anything. It's like every other day. It's like, yeah, I got this guy. Do so and so I'm like, Who is this guy? We literally have like four different people who have helped us out very kindly at reduced rates. Yeah, yeah, right. very kindly. It took for people to do what Eric did. As a note, Nomad, Joe gave us 2000 SATs through fountain and he says boosting from the St. Lawrence River to a nice nice search when screw gave us 1893 1893 resets. He says this.

He says this reading is wonderful. Seriously, there was Thank you. Sir Doug 5000 SATs through fountain and he says, boost moost Monty caca 1000 SATs and he says How about PATA phi? positron when it gets sued? What do you mean? What about PATA phi member? Pot? Like PIO, ti F why? They were like, oh, yeah, gotcha. How about pod if it's not gonna lock a five baby block of five Mary Oscar citizens hidden set test boost. Thank you. You know what? I caught that because it came

through on the boost bot. I'm like, yeah, he's testing out live. It screws me up. But he's his name is Oscar Mary. But his tag is Mary Mary. And always want to call him Mary. Yeah. Well, let's just start doing that from now on. Okay. All right, Mary. Hey, listen, Mary. We asked Leland today, you know that he's gonna release live. You know, that's what those booths are. Yeah, they're it's he's in the he's in the dungeon. Yes. Yes. He's cooking up in the cauldron. Exactly. Yeah. Those tests

booster kind of lame, though. Yeah, that's right. Just say and Mary. Caspian? Have he have the cheese and 90 SATs? And he says yes, yes. Yes. Invite the lawyer. Thanks for the word. We will thank you. Cos by the duchies. I like that. Yeah. Represent. Hey, I hope you guys are boosting Robert Jensen's podcast because, you know, we need we still need to show him that this shit really works if he's not mentioning it yet. It's not English. So if I tuned in, I'd have no no,

no, I'm talking to the Dutch guys. Okay, we got lots of Dutch guys listening and gals. Brian of London in the hive Dao 31,741 status. So regular weekly $10 from Brian of London go podcast. That's right. Bucha Can I just say that Brian of London can produce a blog post in about 3.7 seconds. I mean, that guy five times a day. Something happens and he has a blog post out before you can say Bob's your uncle. You know, why is that is really blood. That way Yes. 1000 word

blog. Something about these. It's probably in the matzah. Yeah, those guys this is something they're doing. And then I got boss write blog post. And, and most of them are excellent writers. Yeah, it's not like it's a hag job. It's I mean, it's like, but but here's the thing litter and I feel bad about this. So Brian wrote a beautiful blog post about pod pig. But the title is, Hive is now pod pig. I tweet that out. And I want to

promote it. Wait a minute, let me tell you the exact title. I want him to know why I haven't tweeted it just because he says hey, I can't tweet this because I've been blocked. Yeah, I wonder why. You have an account anymore. They took it away. Here it is. So he's so he's taken a line from classic how daily source code used to open something remarkable is happening here. Notifications are springing free of the regulative gatekeepers who've managed what you can

receive since notifications were invented. No agenda is lit by pod ping on hive. Now if I if I were to tweet that out for the next two months I'll be defending hive hate you're gonna get get hate. Get hate. And I love pod ping It's unreal. tweetable it's it's not appropriate. Just put it in our show notes though. Put it in the show. By the way, Josh thank you for supporting pod paying that's that's killer se se you're just cast things come through. Yeah, it is good.

Satoshi stream 5552 says go podcasting. Thanks for Toshi strange guy and Blog Post this week. Yeah, there's a merry Oscar with another DAP. Sir Spencer 12345 12 That's 345 SAS through fountaining says excited to hear about the medium tag in point progress. Okay. All right. Thank you very much for Spencer. Yeah, I'd

like to get a little further before we get dig into it. I've got just scratching the surface, flooding and slips 4000 sets and he says set vertising podcasting for value podcast one idiots attempt at starting a value for value podcast. Advertising Advertising. I like that and the delimiter, comic strip blogger 15,033 SAS and he says, Sorry. Yeah. How do you even Adam? Are you being infiltrated or manipulated by Russian agents? They have a hidden agenda. You know?

We were talking to the Chinese Communist Party agent right now. I mean, come on. We got Josh here. Who needs the Russians? We got the Chinese in here, man. He says, anyways, I invite your audience to buy my NF TS at open c.io/csb He sell an NF Ts. That gets into that. You don't buy an SD SD, Josh. Right. You don't sell them though. Do Hey, Don. Okay, good. Okay, good. You can stay with us. We always had to kick you out.

But we'll get both sides of that settled. He says anyway, I invite your audience to buy my NF T's at open c.io/csb Thanks to help from Roger roundy I've already sold six NF T's to five owners. Yo, wow. Very cool. Oh, we're happy to hear that. Yeah, I expect that set donation to go up there. Should be increasing. Monthly. You guys monthly pay pals. We get who we who we get here. Oh pod verse 50 bucks. Thank you. Pod verse. You pod verse. Cameron. Rose. $25. David, meet us. $10. Mitch

Downey $10 Thank you, Mitch. Christopher. Horrible, Eric. I'm nailing that name now. condors. Yeah. David Mitas already said David listed fun fact. Friday. That's David's show. And Jeremy knew $5 Joseph maraca $5 and Boris because it'll ski $1. Only we could do something with RSS to to have some kind of interactivity with our audience. I mean, our fans? Yeah. And could that be monetized? Or is that only the only monetized like Spotify does q&a and polls?

Polls? Yeah, we just we just have a distinct lack of poll juice. Josh, thank you so much for joining us today. I was just joking earlier. Were you born in China? Are you just are you? Okay, so when did you come to America? I can 17 So when I come here for college? Oh, good. All right. And you decided to stick around? Yes. Much better? Well, you anytime it follows you better. Although not much. I hear. You need to come to Texas, man. Come

on, hang out here you'd like to hear? I'll bet I'll bet you I will bet you that Texans and Chinese have a lot more in common than people think. I really do. I bet you I bet you bet you like land. Or Josh, are you going to do you go to the podcast? conferences at all? Will you be going to Podcast Movement in Dallas? No. And I'm fine with it. Not not me. I'm gonna call it and and yeah, I gotcha. I gotcha. Well, if he ever had just, I just want to shake your hand and buy you a beer?

Yeah. So maybe next year, hopefully. Yeah. Excellent, excellent. Josh is just cast, you can find that at just cast.com. It's definitely worth checking out. That's been look at the two videos on how it works. It's it's fun. It's fun to see this very, very different type of approach. And I really enjoy that. Thank you so much, Josh. Really, really appreciate me. Course. Thank you. And thanks to everybody who has supported the

project value for value is what keeps us going. And we definitely see people carrying about the you know, maybe everyone should just stop for a second. Tina actually said this to me today. And I pass it on to Dave, just look at what we've achieved in less than two years. We're coming up on episode 100. We're coming up on two years. And that's crazy. And look at what everybody has has achieved. Just look at it. And it goes beyond apps and and services. We have friendships. We really do.

And these friendships these are the people who are in these trenches now. He's gonna be gone for a long long time. Yeah, yeah. Just look at all the people we know from 20 years ago, you know when we started that outdated shit Yeah, exactly. Just stop you know look at what happens when you stop using old outdated technology. Yeah, you get friends? No, I tend to think of I think I said this to you this morning. I tend to get trapped in the PLA that's to myself the

What have you done for me lately? No idea where it's like you know is like if you're Not just pouring out and ripping out new stuff all the time, then you know, then you're just locked down or you're stuck slacker. Then you look back on and you're like, Oh my God. I mean, the volume of stuff that does come out of this project in such a short amount of time is incorrect. I'm going to wager you, yourself have probably written over 100,000 lines of code. For this project, I bet you're damn close.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised. Danis nice looking code to know how to wouldn't go that. Josh? I know. My see. You Oh, we all right. Szybko, don't we? All right. I don't know he'll but I'm sure I left. Thanks, everybody who tuned in for the lit version of the show. Thank you all very much podcast. index.org. Josh, thank you again. Dave. My brother. Thank you. And everybody have a great weekend. So you guys by Josh?

No, he didn't say goodbye. He just hung up. I think he took it as instructions. Everybody, we'll be back next Friday with more podcasting 2.0. You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit podcast index.org For more information or falling down, tripped over my scissors. They were in the floor.