Episode 77: Is that a minipub in your pocket?

podcasting 2.0 for March 11 2020, to Episode 77 Is that a mini pub in your pockets? Alright, and just happy to see me. Are you happy to be here at the board meeting of podcasting 2.0 Everything happening in podcast index.org, the podcast namespace, and of course, all the creativity and the good juice at podcast index dot social, special live board meeting today. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas

Hill Country. And in Alabama, the man who edits SQL by hand my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. De Jones, live board meeting. Live board meeting, baby. Yeah. This is very exciting. Yeah, the did anybody inform the secretary? Did people just start streaming in she had no, it wasn't on the calendar.

That's pretty much the way it went down. So what we're talking about is today we are live with the live tagging the RSS feed, which means at least one podcast app, if you use it would have notified you that the stream is live. And you can play this in the app. And I believe there's also a chat in the app. Am I correct?

Chat is supposed to be I think it's just an iframe. I'm actually scared too scared to hit this live button because I'm afraid it's gonna like come back on me and I'll start playing and it's gonna freak me out because my curio caster wasn't showing me the live items. So I just want to I just want to go there it is. 77 live. Okay, I only showed up so I just want to know, there it is. Oh, oh, wow, this is trippy. Now we just boost myself just for good

measure. Okay. Break the internet and stop it. Alright, so this kind of works. It was very confusing. I was using sovereign feeds to set up the all the trigger stuff, the live items. And it was I was just just like, oh, what parameters do I need is like, oh, a chat room. And then the story is just Oh, man. I just I couldn't quite wrap my head around it, then Steven be created. And I also couldn't find the live item tag. Like,

where is it? I guess at the bottom. I expected that to be at the top for stupid reasons, I guess, in the just where it shows up just physically in the feed. I wasn't expecting it there. So I was like, I couldn't figure out what was being output. He sent me an RSS feed. I uploaded that one then I did the second one. myself when we went live. So all by yourself. Yes, Dave all by myself, I'm proud of me Come on this. If I can't do it, who's gonna be able to do it? I'm low on the on the wrong.

User friendly is not exactly how you would describe any, any of this. Well, what at all? What's cool, I mean, I like the idea of setting it in advance and then publishing the feed. So you know, okay, we'll be live, I think 1230. But then you have to do that, again, when you go live. And that should just be a click, you know, it's like it should know what to do. And I shouldn't have to go there and

create a new episode. Copy the old one. I mean, obviously, as we as this matures, and it'll get better, it's just right now is kind of like holy crap. Honestly, the best part about this whole thing is that I can look at curio caster and remember what the show number is. And because that's a consistent problem with me. Yeah. Alright, man, how we have a good guest today, we should bring him in pretty quickly. There's anything we need to discuss

before we get rolling. What are you working on? It seems like you've been still doing some cleanup stuff. While I've been working on the aggregator, so the, you know, we talked last week a little bit about how the aggregator that we brought into podcast index was the one from sort of the final revision of the of the aggregator from Freedom controller. Okay, so I took that, and it's, it's a two piece as a two piece aggregators got a polar, a feed puller, and then a

feed parser. So that they can run parallel. And there's this basically, it's two separate JavaScript, Node js scripts, and one's called party time, which is the parser. The other one is called aggravate, which is the polar, right? And so then you, we took those, dropped them into podcast index code base, and then modified the crap out of them to be to do the things that we needed to do for for podcast index. Party time works fine. It's, it's a little it's messy, because it was written as fast

as humanly possible. So it's, it's still messy but aggravate is based on the old node request module, which has been deprecated. Now, in node node request module, node j. S. They had Like a built in library for doing HTTP requests now. Okay. And it's been it's been deprecated. Since I think node 14, maybe in their own like, I think the current long term stable is 16. Now, for node,

so it was time. Yeah, I mean, it was creaky even I think they deprecated it because it wasn't very reliable anyway, you know, as as, as a as a systems admin, yourself, I mean, that. I know you do a lot of customer facing stuff in your real job, but also just all the, you know, a lot of back end. Is this like a never ending thing,

just all these upgrades? Is that just this is just Yes. I mean, this is a determine your life to a degree when all that's coming, and then I have to upgrade those three things, because they have dependencies and all this stuff. Yep. If you live and die by the EO by the AOL table, the end of life chart from every software vendor? Oh, yeah, that's published ahead of time. So you know, you know, when when a new version is coming?

Yes. Like the most recent thing is in the day job is going through and purging Microsoft SQL Server 2014 Out of everything and upgrading, because that's about to go into fly. That sounds really fun. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Oh, boy. It's a party. Let me tell you bring beer. No, it's yeah, that's that got deprecated. And then it was never very reliable to begin with, even when it was actually supported. And so I've known for a while that I needed to rewrite this thing. And it's,

it's the simpler of the two. It's not so simple. When you say rewrite, does that mean a whole code rewrite? Or just Yes? scrapped from really? Yeah. Now, do you already have these? I'm just curious about the process. No one No one ever asked developers I guess numbnuts like me, so So you have your your basic structure of the program? Are you going to literally start line one new file? Or are you going to take that structure and do some some adaptation copy

paste? Basically, this one was pretty much cargo new project, just blank file starting from scratch. Wow. That Because? Because it's not? It's not super complicated. When this when this software is all said and done? We're probably talking about Yeah, 1000 lines of code or less? Oh, I can hold that. Why am I doing it? handed over? I'll take care of it. Yeah. But that, yeah, it's pretty much a straight, clean rewrite, there's really no as there's no porting going on, because I don't like

the way that the olds dole thing was written anyway. And so what it's going to do is it's going to, it's going to just accept the current the current version of, of the polar, it, it does a query on the database to get a batch of feeds, and then loads them all up in a in, in a an asynchronous, it just fires them all off asynchronously. Then as they fit as each one finishes its job, it determines what happened with HTTP status code was what that means. And then it updates the database

individually. So for every time the polar kicks off, there's this flurry of database calls, okay. And what I want to do is get rid of that, what I would like to do is do one, one, select have a hope of n get a whole bunch of feed IDs based on some criteria, load them up in a queue, and then have the polar just grab all those feed IDs, and URLs, grab the feed IDs and URLs from the queue fire everything off when and as they finish write them to feed files then include the HTTP status

code and e Tag and last modified header in the feed file. This and party time will come through and pick up those feed oh right you told me about this yes yeah. Now what guys You had me that polar and party time? I mean, it's like yeah, you already had me there. So but this this will probably be this will have an AOL itself this will this will be dead when pod ping finally takes over.

Yeah, but that I'm hoping, selfishly, that that's not for a while just so that I won't have to consider this a waste of my time. Well, I don't think it's ever a waste. But Oh god this thing is fast. Yo, it is so fast. It's my how fast this is for it is. Let's see. We're the last test I did last night was about 1200 feet a minute in it. Wow. And how many parallel processes is that? It is their threads so they're not as threaded. So 1200 threads in a minute, basically.

Yeah, that mean the way that they look is the request library inside of rust is so good. It's it is so top notch. Hey, Dave. How good is it? Oh, it's so good that I had to get a get a drink afterwards. ever smoked dinner? No, it's fantastic because it looks like you can fire off 1000 feeds have it do its job. And the memory usage for the process. Never goes above about 100 Meg's hmm it's it's that good. I did 10,000 feeds the other day. A fire those off in

it. It got all 10,000 in about two minutes. 20 seconds. This thing is this this? That's good. Yeah. And this is all on a file. This is all on a $5 a month Linode with with a single CPU with non dedicated shared CPU and only like a gig of RAM. Right $5 Now but after this Amazon purchase, you know 15 Yeah, yeah, it'll go up. I'm sorry. aka my Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I have not received a single boost from anybody yet. I wonder why that is. And guess people don't care.

I see them talking about it. Is it are these booths best to be showing up in the chat room? They wouldn't know but they would show up on the heli pad because I have the the boosts monitor split so they would show up but I haven't seen any and even the one that I sent earlier has and I wonder if that's the the LNP locking again LNP locking Yeah, what if too many people are trying to boost at the same time then it locks and it waits and does all kinds of stuff. So I'm gonna try right now. Yeah.

I'm going to send a boost. Yeah, well, I sent myself a boost. Now I know this illegal in several states but still I self boosted and it didn't come through and I was boosting from curio caster. Okay, yeah, I got he got one. Who's a Dara? No. All right, Darrin Oh 10,034 sets one more than comics through blogger. Thank you for your courage. Yes, thank you. No, he just says see Darrin just added himself. This is proof that Darrin actually has sat in a wallet. He just never

he just never spins them. And he sent it from breeze about that. I'm gonna boost here. Interesting. Interesting. Came in although the came in his podcast in 2.0, episode 75 I just sent a boost. Okay. 100 I wonder if that's an oh, you know, breeze is interesting because it's a it's a full node and really has to be running for it to be able to process payments. So if you just boost something and you close the app, then it probably won't send that boosts and or I

guess booster Graham until much later. Oh, breeze doesn't support live item? Of course. I'm sorry. What am I thinking? So he Yeah, he just grabbed a random episode. Well, okay, why don't we share some of this with our guests, Dave, since we're going to be talking a lot about what's going on the most the most recent developments that we've been working on for the namespace and of course, all of that podcast index dot social, anyone who already has an account can get send you an

invite to your preferences. So if anyone's looking for account looking to join, we just had to shut that off because I was I get these trending emails of what you know what what what is trending on our Mastodon server somehow it knows this. Believe me. That's it a bunch of political call. Yeah. All political. Yeah. Welcome in. John Spurlock is here ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the board meeting, John. Hey, nice to be here. Can you hear me?

Yeah, we hear you. Good. We can hear you. Yes. Yeah, we got you. We got siblings. You know, John. I don't really even know. Your background. See, internet? Yes. Well, cuz I heard I heard you were on. Were you on pod land recently? I think. Yeah. I was on pod line last week. Yeah. And like how this this guy has some history that I'm not aware of? And maybe others. I'd love to know a little bit about how you came to podcasting to promote what you were doing before?

Yeah, sure, sure. So I guess I've been doing software now for over 20 years and a full time sort of capacity. So I still I still like writing software. I still like making stuff. That's kind of my MO. I worked at kind of a financial sort of background for a little bit did some trading systems integration. You know, Enterprise Architecture and that's yummy. Yeah, exactly. You know, database stuff. I started out there, optimizing query plans, that sort of thing. But

then I also did consulting with Java, Linux stuff. I always had been doing that always been interested in the web. I actually worked for Google for a few years working on Android. So the operating system there is basically I think, what they call it now as a full stack, developer full stack. Plus, I guess, if you add Android onto it, yeah, I'm a generalist. I just like kind of like it all still.

And so what I decided is, you know, Google has this IP thing where you can't really work on side projects, without them being able to claim your IP. Oh, wait a minute. So you do get first of all, you get your 20% still the thing that they still do that 20 20% of your time, you can do whatever you want. Yeah, when I started there, they were still lip servicing that. I figured that was that gone a long time ago. Yeah, exactly.

I can't bad mouth that though. Because they did allow me I think for the span about six months, they let me do a project that was like, totally unrelated. So they did do it. But I think now it's a little different. I mean, they give you 200% of real time work to do this, right. And then of course, all your all your bullet base belong to us. So whatever you develop in that 20%, we own? Exactly, yeah. And I've always done open source stuff on the

side. And I've always had ideas. And so what I mean, I'm in my early 40s now, and I've never done the cliche, garage startups, that type of thing. So not my garage. I'm in my, you know, in the house, but I'm basically doing that now. So I quit Google. And then I kind of, I always knew I do something in podcasting. I've been, I've been listening to podcasts, and it's like, literally the very beginning, Adam, I think I've been following Dave, Dave Winer. And after extensive beginning, I

used to be really into point cast. I don't remember. Oh, no, do do I remember point cast. I loved how the whole office network just went down. The minute everyone's point cast was updating. Yes. Yeah, it was that that was just for the, for the young for the younger folks out there. Back in the day, we actually use this thing called screensavers. I don't think people use them anymore. We needed a screensaver because

your screen literally would be burned in and ruined. If you didn't opt for toasters and fish flying around on your screen. And it was Yeah, and it was actually a thing we would buy screensavers you go to the store, you buy a box with the fish I think I think I remember buying the screensaver fish bought the toasters. And the fish in it was all floppy. It was on floppy disk. Right? And you had to load it all up. And then out also in Kansas think point cast. And it was like,

there's like a checkbox. And I think a lot of Dave whiners. Inspiration was also he even called a checkbox news. You could say, Okay, I want some sports. I want some finance. I want some food recipes. And it would basically was just a, a version of a, an early art. We didn't run an RSS as far as I know. That was too early, probably just download whatever. How did that work? Does anyone know? What the back end was? I? I'm curious XML. That's the only thing. I'm sure it was XML. Right?

Yeah. So it stuck it in. But then, you know, we had, we had maybe, I don't know, like 40 or 50 people at the office, and we had a T one line. You know, one megabit per second wishes, you know, if you have that at home, you you're on the phone with your cable company, to what's wrong, what's wrong with my speed here? And so when everyone's point cast would update invariably at the top of the hour. Everything shut down. Yeah, it was classic. It was the right idea just kind of too

early from, you know, wiring and piping. Right. Right. Right. I think definitely. Other idea. And I, you know, I've always been interested in that kind of like real time breaking sort of news. And RSS is like that. A lot of good podcasts are like that, too. You know, they kind of like, try to get on top of, you know, I guess it's the same transport but the same sort of idea. Yeah. I've I've always been interested in the idea that you can program media is so interesting to me.

Yeah. Well, and in hindsight, kind of thinking back to those days. I think there was web blogs.com which, which would take XML RPC Requests. That was whiners thing, right. Yeah, that that was his thing. And but you know, how interesting is it that here we are 20 years later, and we're using pod ping, to let people know that the feed is updated. It's the same problem we're solving. And the fact that it's still a feed is unbelievable to me. So I

think that's kind of cool. Actually, a lot of you know, back with my kind of enterprise architecture background, and I think even back with the feed, it's the RSS sort of committee itself, right. Immediately the astronauts descended and we're like, yeah, all right, Adam, right. We're gonna do this right. We're gonna redo Yeah. Oh, my goodness, that was more so this is Like an existence proof that would you call them astral astronauts? Would you call them? Right architecture, astral architecture.

We even had them guy as well. No, but I mean, if you ever do any work with RSS, you are taking on a world of pain, right? Dave knows this. Yes. And I think what the atom guys were, they saw this immediately. And they said, hey, what if we actually clean this up of it? It would make developers lives easier. But I think what they didn't realize is RSS was more about making the publishers life easier.

Yes. And thank you for saying that. Because even though my, my brain was fogging over looking at it, I know that I can look at my RSS feed. And I know I can now stress because we're starting in late and everything, I know that ultimately, I can figure it out. And if, if push comes to shove, I can open it in Notepad, and I can make a change. And that to me is from the you're absolutely right. From the publishers perspective.

Perspective, that is key. And that that's one of the successes, I believe, well, we've been talking about this for a long time is that when it comes to RSS, the issue, the issues with RSS really come from it being loose, loosely specified. And those are its

strengths and his weaknesses. In both in both ways. Adam, Adam was a fan as actually a fantastic idea is fantastic improvement RSS and you know, if you could go roll time back and sort of do things differently, you know, Adam, was the better was the better format, but RSS, they, you know, here, RSS only only defines, like in an item. It's like description and title. Or it may even be just his title. I mean, like that, the looseness of the of that specification are kind of It's

kind of insane. But But if you've been the good thing about it, though, is if you've been through that whole thing before, like if you've been through the world of of of a format war like that, and you've seen which one, one and why at one, then it informs the next time you start to get involved in a project like podcasting 2.0 or something like that. You bring that

experience with you. And you're you're less of a hardliner about, we have to do it this way we have to, because you realize that it's not that that's not what makes the format when what makes the format when is porn it always porn always makes the format when? Okay, yes. Okay. That's that's whatever law that is, you know, the wiki? Yes, as Curry's law, there you go. But the really what makes the format when is a combination of the spec being

being well done. And the politics of what go on with it. There. You cannot separate those two things, right? Because just having the best spec rarely is enough. You have to you have to marry them two together. That's why podcasting 2.0 is so great is that you guys are kind

of a nice, third party. Right? So even if someone came up with these tags, I'm you've been over this before, but they have come up with tags in the past, but it's if there's a company behind it, other people look, look at that work kind of differently. So it's great to have you guys kind of as a I don't know what you want to call. It was poverty Alliance? Yeah. Well, it's not you guys. John. It's all of us. It's exactly. Our committee. It's not Yeah, we just do this.

But but but yeah, sure, Dave. Matt, the magic is in one thing. And one thing only. And I've talked to many people about this, and we've been approached many times, and is that we just are not taking any money from anybody only money we'll take is that as donated four out of appreciation for what the project is. That's, that's what makes it work. And it also helps when Alex gates, his text messages me at, you know, midnight on a Tuesday, and says something like, man, I've got

this great idea. And he's lays it out. That's, you can only have that sort of relationship, when there's not big when there's not money involved. When when people do when there's note when there's you start getting into all the other stuff, and it just falls apart. Yeah, you know, it isn't alignment of interests. I think I think more than anything, it's kind of a lot of people had the same sort of ideas. Like when you started this, I think that was about the time that Spotify

was getting off the ground. And I think a lot of people had the same thought at the same time. And so I know that sure I turned you guys, I think we kind of line up as far as kind of really wanting the the way it has been to kind of keep going and I don't think there's any guarantee that it will. I think Apple has done a great job of kind of encoding it for now. But due to kind of the concentration of things, it wouldn't be hard for some of the bigger players to just specify another way of

doing things. And you know, have some bad meetings and then we've kind of lost a lot of the stuff that we have today. So my whole overall goal, if I have any goal is to just kind of maintain the status quo of like, lots of apps, lots of hosts kind of a dynamic, like system with a lot of players. Do you want? I was just gonna ask one more thing. Do you have a day job currently or just coast? Are you just coasting on that Google stock? Well, it's it's, it's been referred to

the coast has been downhill. Yes. You know, it's about poverty, right? i What's the euphemism I'm investing in the future? Oh, that's cool. I love that you guys talk about your bills I spend about, I think about 500 bucks a month right now on all the backend. And I've been seeing all this data come through because I, you know, I look at all every single episode that comes out. And I saw a lot of, you know, kind of cool stats, and I'm interested in

that sort of thing myself. But then I started publishing that, as well. So that's kind of another thing I'm kind of doing on the side is, you know, someone will throw out like, I wonder how many, how many episodes use chapters, or how pervasive chapters are? I'm like, I could actually tell you. Yeah, so that's been kind of fun as well. So just to see it's kind of nice. Being able to kind of work in a space where like, things are still evolving. And there's still lots of, I think,

a lot of low hanging fruit. I think strategically, I'm focusing on an app like a client app. I think that's like the biggest hole. I think there's a lot of great hosts out there. So I think I have some ideas in the hosting space as well. But I think there's tons of great, like, all levels enterprise free and everywhere in between. It's a flip case. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think I'm kind of okay with where that is. But on the app side, I don't know if you know, but Lipson has a as a

podcast. And every month they go through and kind of list out what they see for the downloads wise from all the podcasts are on their system. And they always, you know, they've gone back many years now. And I've been looking at that. And they used to break out like, okay, so Apple podcasts, as we're seeing this many downloads from Apple podcasts. Spotify is obviously, coming up, Google is coming up, but the independent like, so everything other than Google and Apple, that share has been going

down consistently. And so that's what worries me, you know, overcast is doing a great job out there. But it's iOS only. But from from a philosophical standpoint, why? Why does that overall market share matter? Because of the what? Well, for one I see is this kind of like a strategic thing. Again, if let's say only two apps are the primary portal into podcasting, it makes it a lot easier for them to just say, Okay, we're going to do another thing now.

Because then no matter what Apple does, I think anyway, I'm the host would jump to do it. So if they said, Tomorrow, we're going to do Jason feed, or something crazy like that. They would, they would fall over themselves, the host to implement it right away. So we're kind of it's limited by the the clients to some extent, as far as where the innovation happens, here's, here's my view on that, because I think we get way too hung up on leaderboards and percentages, and all of this.

The only way podcasting grows is through communities that are promoting whatever it is that is going to rise to the top. And sometimes it's a technological thing that boosts podcasting. Often, its content. So podcasting was growing, maybe five to 10%, a year bubbling under, it got pushed way down once YouTube and Facebook and Twitter, and that was it was all about social media. So there was no, there was really no ink at all, for podcasting, although it was growing, but no mainstream

attention until cereal hit. And so my point being that you, you can't market your way to the to the top of the of the apps, you know, with, I don't think we're ever going to see apps as big as Apple and Spotify, it will even out but it's it's all going to happen in small pockets. The small pockets happen and grow because the podcasters they want people to use that app, you know, and that reason, some of them have it now. A lot of Bitcoiners a lot of pioneers, you know, early or early

adopters were in a very, very early stage. Most of the apps are just getting to where they're acceptable for people to make a change or try something out. So I think we're just we're just, we're a ways off. But this this, these these percentages, it's like it's demoralizing. It doesn't matter. We I mean, look at the features that some hosting companies are implementing yet. It's not overnight and they're not all falling over themselves, but a number of important ones are

doing it and supporting it. And because we're not falling over over ourselves because Apple said we're going to do something. We're doing it right. But, you know, I think the YouTube, the YouTube talk that's been going on for the last couple of weeks is kind of a, it needs to be talked about because I don't trust those numbers.

Well, let me let me say, let me put it this way. If YouTube as a podcast platform, you know, now they're, they're gonna do like the keynote, somebody from YouTube's gonna do like the keynote at Podcast Movement, and they're, they're making their, their play into podcasting. And then I hear you keep hearing these big numbers, like 40% of people listen to podcasts on YouTube for medicine research and all this cuz it's just kind

of all in the in the podcast, industry news. And I've got real problems with those numbers and how to interpret that, because, well, I guess number one is, if that's true, if it's true that you that 40% of people listen to podcasts on YouTube, then why is YouTube making this big play of getting into podcasting? That sounds like they already are? Why are they going to pay? Pay create, oh, I can answer that $50,000, I can give you the answer and give you the answer no, that no,

they're saying something different. To saying we want you to make video versions of your podcast is very different. And so they're not. They're not necessarily asking for a whole bunch of people with mics and headsets and studios. They're looking for more, they're trying to build a library of hits. That's what all these people do. That's what Spotify is doing is what Google is doing. Amazon will do their own version. Apple's the only one that just wants people to use their

subscription service. I don't think they care much about anything else. But these people this is all content plays, has nothing to do with podcasts. I couldn't give a shit about what we're doing. No, I agree with that. I guess my problem is with the numbers and what that means to the industry, because these numbers are just reports. Yeah, but but they're just reported meaningless. I think my point is, it's meaningless. It doesn't really matter, does it?

Well, if you have 40, here's, here's the way like, here's the way James explained, explains it. He says, Okay, if if, if the survey if you ask somebody where they listen to podcasts, and they tell you YouTube, well, then it doesn't matter, that YouTube is not really what we consider a podcast when it matters, that they think that it is a podcast, so therefore, it's a podcast. Now, I don't want I'm not interested in the debate about what is a podcast. But what I know is that those numbers are

being reported to the podcast industry, as podcasts. And it's like, it's it's like taking, it's like asking somebody if they go if they if they watch movies, but not distinguishing between the theater, and and television. You if you're taking these numbers and saying okay, 30% of you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right. It is almost apples to oranges. It misinforms the podcast industry about what actually

happens. Like France, for instance, you have if somebody thinks PewDiePie is a podcast, and they say, Oh yeah, I listen to I listen to podcasts on YouTube, yes. Where I listened in in there. And the whole time in their mind. They're thinking that this video, that this video channel, they watch all the time is a quote unquote, podcast, that's fine for that. But then if you take that information and go tell the podcast industry, in the traditional podcast industry, that Look here, 40% of

people listen to podcasts on YouTube. And they're like, uh, oh, I don't know what to do about that. Well, yeah, you don't know what to do about it, because it's not actually accurate. with it. Okay, that's my issue. Yeah. Just so you know, since day one on podcasting, the argument of where people listen, and what is then considered a podcast has been raging. And to this day, there are people that say, Dude, I was putting my mic my radio shows on the internet. 1983 I

was the first podcaster. Yeah. Yeah, that argument is boring. What is integral was interesting to me about all the numbers that I've heard reported and I and as you know, I really don't put much I don't care. It's We're building something. We've got 5000 podcasts that are using it, probably 1000 of those are really using it actively and are starting to hone their pitch for value for value. But more importantly, the authoring tools are starting to come online slow, but they're coming online

and we've let own the All we've done is lead by example. That number that I found most interesting that something we can affect is women. A large percentage of women listen to a podcast on the podcast website. I've seen this myself. I've seen this myself. That's a humongous option. tunity for embedded players, that's an option an embedded player. That is, I mean, we everyone, all of our apps, I think almost all of them have at least some web version. And we have some cool sharing

widgets. But think about players and what we can do with the with the namespace tags, etc, there to get people to use an app. But even then, I mean, it's, is it invalid to have someone use the curio caster embedded player with a wallet with everything there? Versus on the curio? caster.com? PWA? No, no, no, I think the way I think about it is that YouTube is kind of a good Northstar. As far as user experience, I think in the future, let's say video was not that expensive. Back in the day,

there probably would be five or six youtubes. But they kind of you know, Google took a massive hit their bandwidth bill is just insane. But now we're getting to the point where you could see almost building a YouTube on a lot of the newer edge technologies that are out there. There's, there's, I think there's gonna be some interesting startups that kind of blend what we're doing with podcasting, and then also bringing that to video in the future. Alex is doing it by himself. Yeah, yeah.

But I think you'll see kind of larger companies start to do this. And then the, but they wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry to interrupt. You said you see larger companies starting to do this, just explain what this is. Again, I think building, for example, the, the podcast hosts don't have apps right now. So if they come out with a new feature, they're kind of reliant on the app side to kind of build

everything to, to expose that. But you can imagine that they would build apps that like can do audio, and then potentially video as well for their customers, just because they know that they can make a great experience for their for their customers. Yeah, well, so I could, I could see like, and again, I think just the experience is what we should look at YouTube for inspiration from and honestly over the what was it over? I think New Years, I think podcast was like, you

know why? One of one of these new podcast features would be really compelling for, you know, an average podcast listener to actually switch apps like they would actually cause them to switch. Here's a strike. Here's, here's a striking thought. Because it just struck me. Should we maybe we should consider redefining what we're building? Should it only be apps that are an app stores? Should it be? Should they always look the way they

look? I don't think so I don't think so either. I mean, creatively, the features have been driven by the app developers 100%. That's the and of course, by the by creators who are using those elements and asking their tool, suppliers, which is the hosting companies to implement that, so they can use it, that that's kind of that's how the demand works, and then how that's how stuff gets in there. There's not a lot of push coming from the hosting companies in that regard.

But we'll see a blend though, because you're gonna see services that kind of use a lot of the data that were like transcripts is a perfect example. That's sort of interesting, from just a straight kind of user point of view, it'll be useful to some people. But that is a wealth of information that services are going to be able to create, like

amazing search experiences for, for example. So I think you're gonna see a lot of just web services kind of read these days to state as well, we're in agreement, what I'm saying is, we need the creative, we need to get our heads out of our asses as to what a podcast

app is, and what people really want to work in on it. If women if women, if for women predominantly are using a player on a web page, which is pretty sad, if they use and I know they're using it on on some of my shows, it's just a simple,

you know, mp3 players or nothing. Why wouldn't we spend the same benefits whether it's an app or not probably more, even to some degree, we can build into those web pages, and we should be we should be going where people want to be and I think we're a little too hung up on religion, and that, you know, oh, Apple, okay. You know, it's like It's nonsensical numbers. I don't have a problem with podcast as a term either. I think that's fine to

kind of, even though it's kind of a horrible name. It's kind of like it right now. everyone kind of knows it is it's the non mainstream sort of media look, delivery system. And so I think people no matter what the apps end up looking like, and I think like you said, I agree there's going to be 1000s of different types of apps. I think the notion of podcasts as the overall term for this is still useful.

Yeah, I think what matters is that the the delay the source of the delivery, and the end point where it's delivered to maintain decentralization What What now how you know how that looks, whether or not you're serving, serving it out of object storage, or off servers, or off IPFS on the back end, or whether or not you're consuming it with a mobile app, or a website or a PWA, or an embedded player on the on the edge. I don't think either one of those things really matter as long as they

stay that way, as long as they stay decentralized. But that's my problem with that's my problem with with the whole YouTube conversation, like Chris Fisher on brought a clip of Chris Fisher, talking about this very thing on the latest episode of coder radio. And he's talking about his about what he sees

going on in the industry. If you want to play that clip, that's I've been feeling the same way on the in the podcast space, today, it came out that YouTube is offering like $50,000, to certain podcasters to take their audio only podcast and make it a video podcast. And then you know, start using their ads and stuff like that. And you know, you watch what Spotify is doing. You watch what Apple is doing. You see what Lipson

trying to do with suppressing ad prices. And YouTube is trying to do by taking over podcasting and I start thinking to myself, How the hell am I gonna be able to stay independent for the next five years, it's getting really, really centralized out there. For some, like the rumors as much as $300,000, the offers, which I still find ridiculous $50,000 Couldn't even convert a

single one of our podcast videos, think about it. That doesn't even pay for a year of a video editor, not to mention camera equipment, lighting, sets, editing equipment, I mean, give me a break. $50,000 is spent in one weekend buying the gear? Well, that makes no sense. Yeah, but they're trying to incentivize a centralization of podcasters. Because once you go into the YouTube platform, you create content for the

algorithm. And you you have to create content that's also appealing to the ad bot because it's it's all an auction system behind the scenes. And the auction system has preferences, it looks for brands save content, and brand save content is not only the type of things that you cover, but it's the genre of you that you cover as well. I look at independent podcast operations. And I just think, I don't even know if most

of them are going to make it the next couple of years. I think it's really, it's really bleak out there. Alright, I'm gonna take this in reverse order. First of all, the only reason this is a news is because there's money involved. Whenever there's money, and there's free money, people always get all money, money, money. And there's always all kinds of thinking that goes along, and there's feelings and shit that happens. Whereas 99% of all podcasters probably will

never make or should make any money. The bigger travesty here is not people using YouTube or whatever to listen to podcast, the travesty is that creators put it there. If you want to create a community that is profitable, both on a creative and business level, you need to control that community. That's the bottom line. I don't care if if you're using if you're streaming live with with any tube and using curio caster, you still need to have control over your community, which is what

we're doing and what we're building. People are realizing, gee, you know, it's not such a great deal, there will always be a whole bunch of fools who go the same who go to the major labels, that's not going to end anytime soon. The people always follow the money and they think that where the money is, is where the audience is, but you have no connection when you have

to go to all these different places. You really don't own your audience, you and when by own I mean you don't have them in a place like no agenda has, that we've never done any any kind of marketing or any or been put on other we've In fact, we refuse to be put on Spotify. But we did put that up on Mastodon server. What What concerns me about about YouTube getting into this,

and I don't disagree with what you're what you're saying. I guess from a technology standpoint, I think that, John, you know, what you were saying earlier is that if a whole bunch of cabal of huge tech got together and wanted to reformat the system, they they could probably do it and this is this is my concern is the decentralization if it gets under attack from a big player like YouTube, and it comes in from the sort of comes in through the back door where Oh,

YouTube is getting into podcasting. Well, yeah, but then what is the net result of that is the net result of that it is going to be to destroy everybody else's business. And in take away this precious but how I don't I don't understand how I fail to see how seems like there's a lot of fear, YouTube's going to come in and they're going to stomp Everybody, that's a big presumption. I, I really, I'm not so sure that's true. And also having done a tour of duty in one of these places as well.

As Oh, like anybody else. Exactly. And the one thing that actually really that they'll spend their time in the shower thinking about and, you know, neglect their revenue per user. No, it's competition actually. Interesting. They could not especially tech people, I think they really cannot stand another tech company coming out with another product that they're like, Oh, we could have built this. And they will copy it, they'll spend all of their I

mean, look at what Google did with Google Plus. So I think what we're doing is exactly correct. And that is kind of like showing away, hey, this is a, this is an innovative feature that all of these podcast apps are going to find useful. No matter if it's a traditional client app or service, I think you guys have done a really good job of kind of keeping the features at an abstract level. So it's like, here's how to represent value, here's how to represent, you know, we're

talking about comments. And all these things are kind of like they're going to be structured data that's broadly applicable to any of these apps. And again, and it creates an ecosystem longer term of tool providers. And you know, I use Well, I don't I use hyper captcha, I use that with Dred Scott. And he does the chapters and, and he gets 10% of some 5% of the of the of every single show I'm

involved in, through the through the value blog split. And we need lots more of these types of, of tools and services to come online. And some of those will eventually be folded into, or purchased by hosting companies. I mean, this is, this is not something that you can measure, report to report, you know, and even to be honest, also, these even though I hear we come out smelling really good. I don't like report cards. I don't you know, I just I just want to see what people are

actually doing and using? And if, if, why are they using YouTube, I'll tell you, here's what I heard the most. It's on my YouTube app faster than it's on my podcast app. And they're not watching. They're just using the app so they can keep it closed and listen to it. It's the same as hitting play on a web page. If people continue to upload to web pages like YouTube, then people are going to listen to their podcast over

on YouTube. If you're not missing out, you know, yeah, maybe some programmatic algo thing that you're but did podcast discovery, it's not how podcasts are discovered is word of mouth. It's that's how podcasts grow, not through any other mechanism. It's just a different beast. But if people want to listen to it on a web page, let's make a great experience. Doesn't matter if it's on a web page or or in an app, it's the same thing. Well, that's probably the other thing that podcasting as a as a

technology. And as a platform has that other platforms do not, which is the pace of innovation and how fast we can change things. Because like I had a fantastic call, did a zoom call with some guys out of Australia. This past week, I think it was like maybe Wednesday or Tuesday. And it's an app that they've it's on the app stores on the iOS App Store is called visie vs. Easy, why? They just released it all. And they're

waiting for it to be released on Android. And it's sort of this, this interesting mix this interesting hybrid thing where they've got a they've got a back end platform web based platform where you can go like claim your podcast public. And when you publish your episode, you can then go through an ad these chapter markers with affiliate links and all bunch of stuff is

basically like these hypercharged chapter. Thanks very similar to what I think Benjamin Bellamy was wanting with podcast recommendations tag to be able to sort of like deliver all kinds of interesting in points to the listeners through chapters. And then they've gotten in, they've got an app that goes with it to show their sort of enriched chapter

content. And, you know, they said, Well, you know, one of their goals is to do integrations with this host hosting companies in the future and be able to, to take chapters in suck them in and then add this, this, this content to it. So I mean, like things like that are coming on board. And that's something like you can't write plugins for YouTube. You can't extend these arguments at all. And the ability to take to take

an idea and build on it and make it better. Is is maybe the killer feature of podcasting. But look at look at the where the power is the power is with the developers. The power is with the creators. That's the bottom line. They literally paying people to come to their sorry as platform doesn't gotta say this guy. I mean, you know, we're not paying anybody to come and use podcasting 2.0. So this fear this and this constant reporting about the job, the

percentages and and oh my god, it's so boring. It's just boring. I don't care. I really don't it's not it's not it's not important. There will never be a king of all media. It's just it's too fragmented. It's going to be even more fragmented. We're seeing newspapers, and television and radio in the traditional sense. And I know that I'll get pushed back because yes, there's a trillion dollars in advertising still being made in radio, but it is dying slowly, is dying, and we

are rocketing up. And the same goes for podcasting. 1.0. You know, it's coming. But you mentioned payment. And I think, I think I can, I'll put up my more conspiracy theories on this podcast, because I don't know that people listen to it. But if I think one of the more interesting things, if you ever get value to value or value for value working? Is it going in reverse? I think I've had an early streaming app on Android, you get to see like how people

actually use your app, and what is important to people. And I think it's important, or I think what I found was really interesting is that people are extremely price sensitive. And people will go through all sorts of hoops to like not pay for stuff. And so I think, I think the idea of paying listeners as a as a as a kind of incentive to come over to your to it like another app or something like that is actually pretty

compelling. I know. Google, for example, would probably pay people to log in and search if they could, but there's just no mechanism exists. I had to have everyone who have wallets, I think the whole idea of kind of like, Hey, here's a way to market that doesn't penalize the listener and actually add some value to the listener. I think that could be really interesting. I disagree. And that's only recently that I've thought about this, then we I think we're talking with Roy from breeze

about it. And I think when you pay people to come in and use your stuff, and in this case, you're not saying Come listen to Joe Rogan on on curio cast, you're saying come use curio caster, I don't think that's the way it works. No, it'd be more more like marketing, right? Where it's like, instead of paying overcast to show something, you would say, Hey, you're gonna feel good about listening to this, because you're gonna get some, I don't know, it's kind of like play to

pay games, almost. But I do agree. You don't want to bring in people just for that you're gonna get you're gonna get Yeah. I don't like it as a marketing tactic to buy customers in that manner. Because I think particularly if you're giving people money, the same people will come and get free money. It's like, what was that old search engine, there was an old search engine that would pay you to search I think was like x 12

or something like that way back like.com era? I think they just the payment system doesn't really allow for it now, where if you guys figure out payments, then I think that'll be well. What part have we not figured out? Well, the going the other way again, and more kind of like, you know, it's got to be a little easier than it is now. Oh, of course, of course, it's got to be easier than we are in. I mean, we're we're having arguments about channel fees,

which will be meeting Nolan void in a year from now. This is this is going incredibly fast. Yeah. And it's really exciting to because you see everything. It's kind of cool, because everything is coming together at the right time. You know, lightning is kind of well, not a lot different places other than podcasting, not, not just that, but people are realizing they're getting screwed by pig tech is my new one. Pig tech is the exact they're getting screwed by pig tech. D platform. They're deep

platforming countries now. I mean, people are are aware of this. They're awake, they're starting to make different choices. Well, if only there was some sort of federated version of Twitter that we could kind of build on. Could we put that into the app screen? Could we put that into the apps for comments that everybody could see no matter what, what that was a great idea. And it could work even on and it could even work in a in an embedded player on a web

page. What a grand idea. Do you have any thoughts about that John Spurlock? I want to hear about No, no. I want to hear about the format war between lightning comments and activity pub. This is clearly going to be afraid of losing losing this war. Who's in this war? Did you listen to pod land? I haven't heard. I haven't. I have some thoughts on this. And I didn't get it. Tell me tell me what the premise was because I didn't I didn't hear this yet. Like, go

ahead. Well, basically, it's that we have to comment systems, right? Nominally, we have booster grams, which kind of go over the Lightning Network. And then we're talking about kind of more general like Twitter type comments for each episode and thinking was I think, hey, now developers have to support both. But I responded to Oscar on his GitHub thing. And I think actually what he's doing is really good in that we need some sort of way of reading these lightning comments right now, if

I'm an app, I can't read booster grams. So that's a problem. And so I think tools like Halla pad will is one way of solving them. But I do think it's worth thinking about how to expose that in some sort of JSON formatted way. So I think that protocol that he's come up with is actually might be a really good starting point for how to do that. But how I see that is

it's basically he's coming up with a protocol. So it's almost like he's coming up with a protocol that we could slot in, as a social interact platform, along with any other social interact platforms that you have for that episode. So what I was seeing is that you could have something like, here's where to go for activity pub comments for this episode. And here's where to go for lightning comments. And it's a way to get people not exclusively into one or the other. So it kind of like lets

people go into lightning gradually. So to me, I think it's like people forget that the social interact tag is like not exclusive. It says, well, here's where to go on Twitter for this episode, right? Here's where to go on the fediverse for this episode, and I think it's really important to say, here's where to go to get the booster grams for this episode, which right now is impossible. But what's cool about what Benjamin has done is that he's created a tag that will basically work for

that. You can specify, you know, one or more kind of platforms for each episode. So let me let me just say something about the publishing of booster grams, because, you know, we've pioneered the value for value model. And the reason you have a booster gram in the value for value model, initially, and it's open for interpretation, is the feedback loop. Which is okay, I'd like you to support the

show, whatever it's worth to you, that comes back. And then the intent the way it's been working, there may be other ways to do it. But the way it's been working, has, then you read out the message. And we like no agenda, we don't publish all messages. And we publish zero those messages, we tell everybody, and we may, we may skip around and read through it or, you know, sometimes there's no message which is, you know,

with booster rams is is more rare. I'm not necessarily sure that that the future of booster grams is to have them published everywhere. In fact, I think it detracts from what you can actually do with value for value. And they may be I may not be encapsulating your feelings on this job. But I think, I think, John, I think what, what you're saying there's a terminal terminology problem here. And booster grams is sort of a catch all phrase, that means anytime

somebody sends you sends a message on lightning. And that's not exactly what Oscar is proposing. Because he's in a, in a thing think that when we, when we talk about it, it comes across garbled. But I think like, what, what Oscar is proposing, and I think what you're talking about John, is, is lightning comments, being just another style of comment where there's a different TLV record, and it's its own thing. And then the booster grams are, you know, those are still point

to point within the app. It's an app, it's an app to it's a listener to podcaster message, then you have this other thing called a boost called a lightning comment. And just if they could mix, or they might not, and but but but there's Sorry, sorry, I think isn't that the purview of the podcaster

though? I mean, I guess I'm more liberal on this, like, you could have a podcaster that wants to show them and then one that wants to filter you can you can you can my point is I know what works I'm not so sure this works really well. I'm not well, because Because booster grams the way we do it is part of its show content. Well that's how they're supposed to work that the intent that's how the value for value loop work. I'm not saying that's the

only way you can do whatever you want. I don't even like having a Twitter and and an a mass and I would rather Why don't you have a if you want to publish it put a bot that connects your booster grams to your Mastodon or your activity pub. I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to have all these these different ways to do it. It's okay. I mean, we can also have five different types of crypto in in the Valley for value payments, which we don't.

Well, the you know, the issue here is that I don't even look at I don't even look at the booster cramps during the week. I print them off right before the show because I don't want to know what they are before we read them because it's show content and if you publish them in advance then all your listeners already know half of the show. And and it's it's not

as exciting. It's you don't get to hear the new the new content and so like, but but with a lightning comments system, you can gateway those things however you want to so if you had, if you if you were accepting lightning comments and on an episode, and in those comments that you know our comments are getting, they could be read, it could be gatewayed out to activity pub or anything else you wanted them to be, I don't see them as being mutually exclusive to activity pub and all.

If I may, it's beautiful to hear you speak that way. Because I hear you, at one point talking like a content creator. And the other one, I hear you talking as a software developer technologist, there's a huge lack of people listening to what creators want hugely lack. And so we wind up sometimes creating all kinds of things, or we are in danger of creating things that people just might not wind up using, or using in a completely different way and then crippled because we weren't communicating.

Well, you've called me down on this for years ever, you know, we've we've always had conversations, phone conversations where, you know, I said, Hey, I just built this thing into the framework trelar editor that's gonna let you do so and so. And you're like, Yeah, but that's not the way I do things. Right. And, and you're like, let me let me go over and tell you exactly what my workflow is. And you lay it out. And then I like, Oh, I get this, like the light bulb goes off.

So to me, cross app comments in their origin, are extremely exciting, because I just want to have an app that I use, and I'm not so worried about, if I can then go and transport my profile to another app. I appreciate that we're thinking about these things, even though we still don't have OPML import and exports anywhere. We're not enough that I just don't think it's that important. We want comments and apps that work across the apps.

Yeah, and I think we're looking wait on the road on some of this stuff. I think the older I get the more kind of like pragmatic, I'm like, Well, this is not a problem, because no one is commenting anywhere. Now, it's like RSS is that we kind of need to see the feed with structured data. So this is gonna, like we were talking about before for apps that want to check out. This is not a user facing, but let's say they just want to follow the, you know, ingest the comments for searching as well.

All of that is useful in the feed as we've described. So I think we are not even thinking of all the possibilities that. And again, I'll come back to the numbers. I'm not so focused on what YouTube may or may not be doing. But when I hear women, a large segment of women listen to podcasts on the podcast page itself. We shame on all of us shame on the hosting companies. Shame on us. Shame on me. Because I know I've been seeing a lot of people going over to good pods.

Have you guys checked out good pods yet? It's actually kind of a good app. But it's one of its biggest features is comments. Right? But it's it's closed off. It's a closed actually. And so that's an and I'm sure they're fine people. I think I'm even I think I may even be doing a podcast with the CEO or something. And I'm so I'll learn a lot more. But you know, when it's when it's a closed off community? Well, that's the

thing we're trying to get away from. That's exactly why we're doing this as we I let Apple become the the on ramp to podcasting. We shouldn't allow anyone to be the on ramp to comments. Well take. Let's talk about good pause for a second. Would a company like good pods? Is this is theoretical, because we don't know them? What a company like good pods be willing to publish back out their comments as activity pub? Or do they see that as some sort of proprietary advantage over the market?

Well, what is their business? I don't know. The reason why we can even discuss this is because we have no business. Yeah. So I would think that for in general, most of these types of companies need to contain their users to some degree, because that's the value. It's their RP use, or their, you know, their value for whatever whatever metric they're using. And I believe they're, they're funded. So they have I think to have investors could be

wrong. I worry about pod chaser more than I worry about good pods in that respect. I don't worry. I don't worry about any of it. I've seen all this come and go. I've seen AOL come and go possible integration. I think it would be cool if I actually think that main hurdle for a lot of these apps and they've just flipped a bit is do I want comments at all? Because it is it's a technical thing, but it's also a it's a head Right, I mean, you are onboarding, user generated content and all that.

So I think a lot of apps have to make that first decision, do I want to sign up for this? And no amount of magic activity pub sauce is gonna kind of save them from some of that now we can create components that make a lot of this easier. But I think there's still a fundamental thing of do I want to integrate user base comments in my app? And is that going to be a feature that I promote? I think good parts has already crossed that. So I could see them at some point, if there's a

thriving community elsewhere of them bringing it in as well. I'm not, I don't know anyone over there. But I think from what I've seen, so far, they've demonstrated that it's, it's a valuable thing. But so when it comes to pay, like, there's this issue of paying for comments, and that's very distasteful, which is part of the lightning comments, you know, thing is, we can all agree that if you have to pay for comments, that it's going to

increase the quality of the comment. I mean, to some degree, you're going to be less likely to have spam and that kind of thing. But then there's the ethical thing of Do you want to have to make somebody pay to comment? And the answer is no, you don't, you don't want to be that way. But in that regard, I think that's you, it's okay to have both things exist, like a lightning comment system where you where you do, the app says, Okay, I want I don't want to have to deal with the headaches

of spam. So I want to enable comments only for people who are willing to give up one Satoshi, which you know, 1/100 of a cent. I want. That's the choice that I make for my app. And then you have this other app that says, No, I'm a free for all want, I want everything. And because you can go back out to the hole, because you can gateway it back out to the world. Either way, then we all get the benefit of seeing both both things in action. And we can we can then say make decisions later on.

Okay, well, maybe we want to sort things in a different way. Or when we go to podcast discovery or search, we want to give more weight to one or the other. Like, I just I see the the existence of both of those things as fine. I think they I think it's okay, it makes sense. I don't see it as a format war at all. I don't know how you feel. But that's the way it seems to me. Yeah, I don't either. I get I think it slots in very well with the it's

a choice. So if the if the podcaster chooses to publish those comments out if they want to do it, there's a tag for it right now. And then we just define that as a protocol that right, but where we're where we're at right now, format wars, or whatever it is. We're stagnant? Well, I would say I would say in that in that regard with here's here's what would help distinguish a comment on

lightning from a booster gram. And that is, if somebody is paying to comment on lightning, debt payments should go to the app, not the podcaster booster grams, good podcaster. Comments good? Will the podcaster is not running the comment system. They're not incurring any of the cost or head or overhead or pain or anything of moderate? Just want comments? Yeah, I just want comments. I don't care. Just give me a thick. I don't care, given the comments, nice problem to have sort of categories.

Everybody needs, like block on news for the next week. And just don't think about what everybody you know, whether it's pig tech or not, we're all looking at the competition. But what's needed, so is do we need, I feel like, I feel like we need what we need is to focus and not bring in all these other problems. I'm sorry. And that's the way that's the way that's the way we've done it. So I'm okay with it. We bring in all these problems and all these things, and we can't do this, we

need to integrate that. And then no one knows what to do. So for months now, I've been posting the social links on all of my podcast, there's millions of people who listen to my podcasts. If there was an app that could do comments, I'd be talking about it and getting people to use these apps. So but there's not because we don't have anyone that can do a login yet.

Well thread. To me the solution to that really is is in one piece of code and that's what you wrote John, this Dan and I have people because I posted on no agenda social or podcasts index dot social, it's populated. So if you open up the the comments tab on any of my podcasts, there's comments there. So, you know, I'm doing I'm doing what's expected on my end. It just seems like one of the things is Yeah, I think you're just you're really early, right? I mean, the tag isn't even technically part

of the spec yet. Right. They've so I think that's gonna go in this next Do you think that slows me down John Spurlock? No, you. You're giving me test data that I put you on my website. That new hype website I put up there podcast love your hype website. It's snazzy, snazzy. Yeah, I think I think it's just a slow sort of thing. I mean, we do, we are waiting for apps to integrate this. So what excited me so much about it, I, I don't have a dog in the activity pub

fight. But what excited me about it is that it exists that it basically is exactly what we would design, if we were going to design something like this, that was kind of a podcast wide, open Internet protocol based solution. So that exists, the fediverse exists, like you said, you already have a bunch of people that are, are actually using a system. So we're not talking about the additional cost of finding users to do this. But I think we're just waiting on apps to make this the

experience pretty seamless. And to do that it's not as easy as like a JSON file, right? You, you have to actually do some work, you have to say, Oh, I have this logged in user on my side. Now I have to define a profile for them. And so I think what's cool, and what I've been kind of working on the last few months is just creating some pieces that at least show the way on how an app might do this. And then a couple of tools that apps could use to read comments, and then to post comments back,

but it's again, it's very early days. So I wouldn't expect anything right away. But I think again, once you see apps, going back to competition, let's say pod friend integrates this, you know, I think you're gonna see apps kind of integrate this right away. But the podcast social thing is more of another problem. Because I mean, this, this feature is also limited by the fact that no podcasts really are putting it in at the moment. So what do you what do you mean, that's, I have, I have four

podcasts. 1.4 million people listen to one of those podcasts. And about a half of all podcasts that actually implemented that. Okay, but but I can't but you see, you know, who listens to my show? podcasters. But you know, what, and that's a good point. I mean, it's easy. I think a lot of people think that the podcaster side of this is difficult, and it's not it's like a tag with a link to notice. But what what is what we have here is a failure to communicate. Go

look at the engagement on podcasting. 2.0 It's a lot of no agenda, people who are balls to the wall doing shows that listen to Spencer, and and going completely flying without a net. And, yeah, it's really true. It's beautiful to watch. And, and I it needs to be recognized that people are using it. They're using it. Let's go, let's let's they're ready for it anything you do anything actually. So, but just again, John again, um, I just got I'm so sick of the numbers. Hardly

anybody's using it. Okay, chicken egg. There. It's not hardly anyone's using it. We put a tag in if one person uses it. Well, yeah, but what I mean, like what, when you say just do it? I mean, there's no. I mean, you got what do we do? Know what, what a formalized attack? Yes, yes, no, no. But what I'm saying what I'm saying is, we're getting off track by we're being distracted by do we do we make it lightning comments? I mean, it will not get done on the path we're on?

And that's because, I don't know, see, I mean, I'm formalizing the tag. Right. You know, I mean, we're, I'm putting it into Phase Five right now. I mean, it's, it's getting done, it just has like pot friend, pot friend and curio caster and, you know, pod verse, These are forward looking at me of apps that are willing to do experimental things. Most apps are not like that understood and understood, they're not, they're not going to do that. It has to be a formal spec before, before

it can be before it can be done. I mean, there. I'm not. I'm not bothered by the slow by the slow roll of this, it, it doesn't bother me because I because every time we come up with some new edge case that has to be handled, we're thankful that we didn't go too fast on it. Dave, I'm, I'm completely in agreement. What I'm saying is, I'm disappointed that the creators are, are being left out of the conversation and ignored. Well, there's just disagreement, there's nothing What do you mean

by that? Yeah, I don't I don't understand what you mean by that. They're not being ignored. Because there's nothing to there's nothing, it doesn't exist yet to give to them. But when when it comes. Like because there's no formal specification to give when I look at what people are arguing about, or discussing, and once once the lightning comments came back, that's when I went, Okay, well, it'll be forever because that's going to

go on for a long time. And I'm just saying, no, no, no, no, I don't think it's gonna slow anything down at all. No, because in that that's the point of was trying to make and I did it ever clearly I did a terrible job was that? I don't think that though I don't think it's a format war, if it was an actual format war, if this was RSS versus Adam, it would be a problem. But I don't think there's a format war at all. But isn't isn't activity pub versus Twitter by definition of format war?

Well, I don't I don't think anybody cares about Twitter at this point. Okay, then why why do we even make it possible to incorporate it? I think I think you put it in there as possible, just to make sure it will the same way that we put in the option for there to be an ether coin in the value value block. Good point. Nobody cares. Good point. Yeah, the altar enclosure is an approved and implemented tag, correct. Guess how many apps supported? Want to think to a may be leaving one out now.

So I so I have a I have torrent RSS feeds of all my shows in torrent? I have. I'd love to do some IPFS. I don't have the I don't have the tools. I don't have the tools to make it. And I don't have anyone to receive it. And that's that's a tag that is good to go. Nobody wants it though. I want to hear that. But you're not. You're not exactly. And there we are. Thank you. Yeah, point made. You're not You're not a listener. And so keep pushing.

I'm not I'm not, I'm not a listener. I'm not a listener, I can't talk to my listeners. I can't convince them to do anything. And they never asked me for anything. That's that. That's the disconnect, that the problem with something like that that you're describing is that the listener can tell no difference between a podcast delivered through IPFS. And through HTTP download. There's absolutely zero benefit, perceived perceived benefit to the listener. And for features like that. apps do not care.

Now, they won the first app to implement alternate enclosure was pod LP. They had an actual reason for specific reason for you. But But if I wanted to do video I'd want to have the alternative tag alternative enclosure tag, I want to have the media tag implemented, you know, so So now we're at a different chicken and egg. When can I start creating stuff using features? If they're not implemented? Do I just go to podcast index dot social and say, Hey, what are we going to?

Do? You understand? Do you understand? I'm just saying there's, there's technology dilemmas. And then there's a dynamic between the developers and the creators. It's not all just about the listeners, the Creators talk to the listeners tell them what to do they explain it to them, they help them get on board. That's that's the missing piece here is we're always like, Oh, well, everyone, people don't. I think people go to YouTube, not because it's YouTube, because oh, that's

where they found it. Or that's where it's easy to listen to. They'll go anywhere to find it as long as it fits within their realm. And we're not really driving any of that. That's it, we'll look at YouTube as an example of something like the alternate enclosure. Alternate enclosure is a direct replacement, a decentralized replacement for YouTube's automatic quality scaling. It's one of the it's one of the

aspects of alternate enclosure. The The reason YouTube had to have that was because it was it without it was a bad experience. The issue with with podcasts is you give the same thing. But there are so few video podcasts. And most podcasts quality is decent, because the bit rates are small. That the the need for the alternate enclosure perceived a need for it is tiny, but let

me approach it from a different. Let's stick with YouTube. And then I'll shut up the main difference between a podcast and an app and podcast and YouTube, can you tell me there's one difference? And I don't care if it's audio or video, lots of people listen to audio podcasts on YouTube with just the album art image. What is the main difference? In that experience between between listening to a podcast on YouTube and listening to one in a podcast app? The the main difference would be well, I

can think of a few. But I mean, the one that jumps to mind is it's easy. Okay, John, any thoughts? You can use your app any app right? You can use the app you're already familiar with. Whereas if you know what's different, what's the what's the difference between listening to a podcast on YouTube or the YouTube app? I don't care for a podcast app. What's the difference? Well, you need to be premium first of all or else it's gonna be a horrible experience.

What is difference? Between premium? What's the difference? Yeah, I'm looking, I'm looking at the chat room, they're not getting it either. There's not a difference. Well, honestly, what I would say is that there is really not much of a difference. Okay? Are you ready for it? Comments? Calm comments. That's, that's the difference. I've been on big podcasts. And the community is in the comments 1000s And 1000s of them comments on my language, see, that's why I was I was sold in December,

whatever, when I started working. So I think that that is actually a, I would like to see, I'm basically doing whatever I can to make it as easy for apps to implement this because I think it benefits every app to do this. Because the more we kind of pool our user base, right, the more we're not doing our own separate comments. I'm writing an app now, right? I'm creating comments. If comments don't exist, I'm still gonna do comments, they will just be locked in my app. And so we

haven't really gone anywhere. I think the beauty of this is that we've actually defined a way that works to do it across apps. And so I'm personally going to do whatever I can to keep making that happen. Because I think it's actually a cool fall off. Not that hard. I'm saying is there's no difference. No other difference. That's, that's the main difference. Yeah, I mean, when and now what they do have, and this is an if you just want just look at a

successful model. They have the Super Chat. Now that is how you can incorporate boost into the comments. They by the way, they don't show up in the comments below, they show up in a separate area on YouTube. So if we're truly worried about YouTube coming in and stomping all over podcasting, well, let's at least do what they do equally or better. And I think we can. No, I think we

can do Yeah, absolute goodness said it better myself. That's that's actually but the live chat issue and the booster grams there. I think that's where it really comes into play. They have the notion of, but actually don't have the notion of a live replay like Twitch, where they show that but if we if we just did a UX copy, we just did a UX comparison side by side. Yeah. Any any study that just said, what are the main features would say, Well, look, look what's going on here.

People seem to come back here to read, if there's replies to their comments. I mean, testers can go there. And instead of going to five different apps, they can go to one place to see all the feedback on you know, the entire community feedback for a given episode, I think podcasters, you know, going back to the Creator side of this, they have number one, they have control over what happens at that endpoint where they don't have control over

that in Twitter or YouTube. Correct. But number two, they have one place to go. So they kind of have their own, they can use that channel. That's the ideal their own community. So I think it's like and then and then this thing community system, and it be a community. Now, I understand all the apprehension and and having apps or having comments in someone's app may not and may not be for everybody. But that's literally

what people want. And end to end to have a an I think you're the cast pod would agreed to own that, quote, unquote, to have that within in your control, certainly not to have someone else determine what can or can't what comment can or cannot be visible. That's what we're doing here. That's the whole point. So, yeah, let's do it. Where are we done yet? Well, i i It's kind of nice. It folds together because this this, you know, it's apples to oranges to a degree YouTube to podcasting.

And I'm also just, I'm so sick of hearing about it, like do a show me something already, or YouTube's eating our lunch or the independent apps are dying? Well, no, I just I just disagree. This is just a metric. But it's not the metric. And it's what you said about incentives is really important. I think there's a limited amount of push you guys can do and all of us can do. I think some of its going to have to be pulled

like people are going to have to be excited. But an app developer is going to have to be excited about adding this before any of this stuff takes off. So maybe some of the apprehension is that people just aren't that excited app developers aren't that excited adding this feature. Okay, just let's not all get our panties in a bunch when YouTube has people going over there for certain things we don't have. But I don't Well, I think it's a little more complicated than

that. Because Youtube, the the Super Chat. The Choose Super Chat experience on YouTube really only exists on the desktop. The mobile, the mobile side of that is a mess. The it's only a good experience in YouTube when you're watching it at a out on the web. And I think that's pretty Probably an instinctive thing that people understand. And that's probably why pod friend and pod verse and you know, impossibly curio

caster are the ones to implement it first. Because when you have you have, you know, screen real estate to to really enjoy the experience of having a chat and a video in one screen. Now I'm not saying it's impossible with mobile, but no, but I'm totally I'm totally in agreement. I think that's why I've I've always been a fan of web apps in general for this very reason.

But see that in and that's why that's, that's why probably the adoption within the podcast app ecosystem is going to be slower for comments than it will be on on the website, or maybe even on YouTube proper is because YouTube, for all I mean, for all it's, for all its growth on mobile and everything. Well, you know, YouTube really is still the best experience on the web. And so and that's not traditionally been the case for

podcasts. So there has to be like that's, that's where it this is exciting, though, because that's where web, good web apps like pod verse and Courier caster and pod friend can really shine and take back some market share from the mobile aspect of things. It's such a such a small step from a woman wanting to listen to a podcast to click on a link land on a web page versus landing on a progressive web page. It's the smallest step known to mankind. It's the same thing. So I need to do better.

And I need to be, you know what, here's some low hanging fruit that I want to talk about. It folds into this. I was looking for a web page for Korean the keeper podcast, because it's the typical freedom controller page. You know, I love my freedom controller. My wife's like, you know, she's in marketing communications like, God is this piece of shit? Oh, throw and Shay. Yeah. Well, I took the I took the brunt of it, Dave. And so we talked about on the grenade. Yeah. So we talked about on the

show. And of course, as it always happens, so much it was actually Dave Jackson says, Well, you know what, why don't you take a look at pod page, like, oh, pod page and pod page. You know, you just I did it. I claimed my feed. And, and it was easy, because your emails are out there. That's right. And I read a couple more offers at the same time. And I liked it. And so you know, and just by reading the feed, and you have a couple Yup, we actually have a lot of

configuration options, and boom, it pops up. And I'm like, wow, that's a really decent website. That really looks pretty good. Except and you can map your domain name to it and everything. Except, yeah, gee, I mean, there's zero podcasting 2.0 features in it. No chapters, no transcripts, any of that. And just to add insult to injury right below the you know, the each individual episode, it has a, an Apple icon and a Spotify

icon. So here's an opportunity. Because right now, I hear a lot of talk about the podcasters page, you know, and of course, we all in the hosting companies all do a yeoman's job of giving people free pages. But just think about this opportunity that's just sitting out there. I mean, I'll use it. I'll use it for all my shows, look at all of my podcast, except for no agenda show which. But the show notes pages are just freedom controller renderings of outlines.

Yeah, I mean, given James was interested over at pod news. And I mean, the more structured data you have on an episode, you could share those on the on the pod, the pod news generated page as well. But I just want to send a whole bunch of women to something they're comfortable with. And they don't seem to want an app, they listen to some of my shows on a on a web page. Why not have it be a fantastic experience. And I have a lot more real estate to explain how to how to fill up a wallet.

Pro tip. You can include custom CSS on the controller page and change the entire way it looks. Yeah, this CSS is kind of where it breaks down for me. Yeah, this is your wish to do that. Back in the day. I remember you had a competition on ninja. Oh, no agenda one time of like, hey, I want everybody to submit custom CSS for the O shaped pages, but also also the change words. That is referred to the Chrome extension. Yeah, Chrome extensions.

You can do crazy stuff with CSS nowadays. I'm sure you could. Yeah, you can replace content. You can. Yeah, I'm just a podcast. I can I can. I can look at I can look at my feed and kind of figure out what's going on. That's the level. That pot page 2.0 ideas really, really Good because that is a way it's like a very low friction way. It's not a whole app that you have to install. Boom, here's an episode. And it's lit up by all these new tags.

I mean, I'll be honest with you, I, I use breeze frequently. But that's, I would say, for some reason, I can always count on breeze to refresh the feed. And there I do have problems with my

browsers with caching and shit. Sometimes things, you know, haven't updated when they should have so often, yeah, I'll use breeze just to make sure I have the most recent version, then I have to quit out of breeze because it gets my battery gets to hold the whole phone and starts to heat up after after a while from the Chrome has always been such a pain when it comes to caching like it. It is just when it comes to it's nasty. But then I have now I use pod friend because it has a

beautiful. Yeah, it has a little list there of the episodes that I have feeds that I subscribe to in chronological order. So I go oh, there's that one. There's that one. So I know what's updated. I list of little bullets and new that's horrible to me. I like I'm a river of news guy, if anything. But then curio caster just has all the features I want. And when I go to my desktop, fire it up. It's there. My subscriptions, you know, I can use it on any computer. I want. Mobile or big

screen. I have to say I find my even Twitter, I use the web app. I don't use apps anymore. Oh, and I'm not just because I'm Boomer adjacent. Douchebag in the cotton gin. You're ahead of the game. Yeah. Cotton Gin in the chat rooms going through a bunch of boomers in here. Well, I mean, did you use mutt as your email client? Mean? There's some truth. But okay, so what's happening right this moment, and I think it's good to step back and get perspective

here. What's happening right at this moment is that a lot of people are listening to the show on curio caster. Mm hmm. And the chat should be showing up also included us. So yes, this, this is super chat happening at the moment. And also from the perspective of Steven B. If people are boosting through Kira Castro while they're listening right now, he's getting a percentage of those of those stats. That's your incentive to do the adoption for a lot of these things. If you're on the

web platform. Now get really good stuff. Unfortunately, with today's live experiment, it seems like the ln pay node could not handle whatever was going on, or I'm, I'm just not receiving payments for some reason. But we did get the 10,034 from Darren and he came in with a second 133 33,333 He says he still had some SATs leftover from random thoughts, unrelenting, and planet rage. And this is our vague he says, Did you get my test boost earlier? Nope. It's it it went through now.

Then. videos from CAST Matic it may be the exorbitant fees I have said on the nodes. Spencer, it's like do it like Yeah, I told you so. Well, they shouldn't fail. Yeah, true. I got. I have lots of routes. It shouldn't fail. But I got confetti on my side. Someone's going through. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. But oh, I know what Yeah. And it was Brahmanism. Also, my home IP also wound up on the spam house list or whatever. I

don't know how that happened. Oh, crap. This. All of a sudden, I couldn't get to my my mail server. I've got new internet. I'm on one gig right now, baby. I can tell you sounds so much better way to live. Yes. sounds so much better. Hey, do we want to thank people? Yeah, yeah. Wow, an hour and a half. This has been this has been a very intense board meeting. Gentlemen, I enjoyed this trip. Hold on a second. Let me just knock off the official

part. Let's, let's thank some people who supported the not just the podcast, but that there's my dog, but the project. So when you support us, you're supporting the work. Certainly the work Dave's doing you are supporting, although not Dave not getting any money. But we're getting SATs one way or the other. But you're really helping the machinery run and and giving us a bit of runway to continue to grow as we expect to and you can do that. Well, obviously, anyone who's contributing their

time or talent is helping right off the bat. And that's how value for value should work. Having the treasure angle is very helpful to keep it running. And we'd like booster grams we'd like Satoshis because we just poured those. Yes, numbers go up. Not today. So do you have a node? John, that we can get a split of this episode? Oh, yeah, I have one of those cute Bitcoin machines. I had to bug the guy incessantly in order for him to ship it.

Oh, okay, I did work. Well, you can get payments and stuff. I think so. Yeah, I have a mini pub project. I have a value block in there. I don't if you want to. I'll send you a block that you could use though for this one. Yep. Okay, cool. Send it to me so I can put it right in the feed before we publish a scene. So right off the bat. RSS calm and you want to guess RSS calm? Yeah, though. They're they're big supporters. Do I need to have my hand on the button?

Oh, you better you better be hovering. Okay. I'm hovering $1,000 Whoa. Holy crap. Shot Carla 20 blades on I am Paula. That's what I'm talking about. Saying the Dave Sorry. No sad puppies today. No good work. No Go podcasting. 2.0 that is, I got to let one out. It wasn't really a boost, but it just makes me feel good. Alberto, just really appreciate it. They've been helping us since early early days. Yeah. And always very responsive in the master Dante. They'll jump in there when?

And Dan was an implementing namespace. Yeah, straight up. Yep. Thank you guys. We got $100 from Les. Les Barnes. Li he no note. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. You. See $7.77 from Charles sale. No note. Thank you, Joe. That's our that's our PayPals we get some boosts we get. So literally, literally to paper towels. Yeah, we have transition. we've transitioned into the lower valued Satoshi world. Yeah, it's like, it's like two or three paper towels and 40 You

know, booster grams. Let's see anonymous, through breeze. 7777 SATs says heavenly boost. Ooh, where's my heavenly? Do we have a heavenly boost? I don't know the heavenly boost. Let's see. Chad Farah says 3333 through Fountaine. He says with all that grunting from Dave I thought I was listening to Adam and John no agenda. A lot last week? I don't know. I guess I didn't notice it darling. See, probably aggravating you. Well, this must be Chad Pharaoh says another 3333 And he says I

don't like it when mommy and daddy fight. Maybe we're fighting at the time. We never fighting. This is how to fight what you know what it is, is people aren't used to honesty to hearing people have an honest conversation because everything is so fake in the mainstream and on a lot of podcasts with if if Chad doesn't like, intense discussion, he probably bailed out like 30 minutes ago. This has been this has been the

intense board meeting. Cast peatland. 3300 SATs through fountain at CES thanks for the show. Thank you. Yeah, boost. Marry Oscar marry one on one sets really like this idea of dated news based episodes, especially if tied into chapters so that apps can mark which chapters have been played and listeners can just carry on from where they were. Yeah, that was for spooler. Yeah. You know, I heard the bogs on pod land. I heard that part. And he was saying, Yeah, we're really late.

And he was just talking about pod ping. Like, it was a whole thing. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is a thing. But yeah, but you need to recognize that no one's jumping up. And you know, and, and Cridland, just say no, you're going to support this. This is a you know, and podcasting via the namespace. It's now part of the discussion. Yeah, it's it's like it's like, cemented it's in there. I mean, we're not going anywhere. We're only going one way.

What do you call that? Like a it's not a house word. What household name is like a household word now within the podcast industry? Yeah. Like whatever that is. Whatever the pod is YouTube part of the Google part of the podcast industry. No. Never. Patrick Erlich Elric. Patrick Ulrich said through fountain he said 500 SATs and he said El Salvador for all ready to move. Did you see that city in Italy? That's now big is no

Switzerland, Switzerland, Switzerland. Lugano? Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's that's that's the that's the way to go. You know, the states in America can do that too. They can they can make their own money. texts. First. Yeah, just saying sir Bill 5000 SATs do fountain he says for the marketing budget. Hey, thank you. Dog here it no here. Yes. Tommy. John's BRT gave us 49,000 SATs do fountain he says Theramin boost I gotta have more Theramin Oh

crap. We have a Theramin Yeah, we do think we do let's see, I do a Theramin boost I think never enough hands. I'm playing with Theramin and I hit the jingle and I needed an extra hand. Got Sikora? Give us 5150 But Oh I wonder if that's a Van Halen but of course it has to be must be does he say anything? He says first time boost. been loving the show and appreciate all the information and hard work you guys do for podcasting.

My podcast is talking beards talking beards calm. Well, I think we should bring back the now that he boosted first ties, fragmented Yeah, got to be defragmented I think in that drips kid. Probably 11 to see the big row of ones 1111 to see but what is this? 11,111 through breeze nice anonymous just as cheers. Chad F in the chat room says you guys had a fake fight on the last episode. Oh yeah, you got us. You got us. It was a fake fight. Fake. They're all fake. They're

all legit. Well, that's why we fight. Oh, Chad. Speak of the devil give us 101 says he says this is some next level shit. Okay, okay, yeah. Alrighty then. Martin through pod friend gave us 100 SATs. He says boost test. You can see when people are doing stuff Krimson outwell gave us 6666 That's a demon boost through breeze. Oh, steam avatar name. Poli.

I made a mistake. What was it? I'm seeing Steven B. He says the reason why Adams not seeing any of the live boosts is because it's boosted rev monitor isn't in the value block. Oh, how come that didn't copy over? Well, so I'm sorry, then that is operator failure. And I take back everything I said. And that's too bad. Because otherwise you would have had a lot more. A lot more puce in the show. Bomber. Yeah. There's always next week. Yeah. Okay. All

right. Another lesson learned. Another 6666 Anonymous three breeze and he says love my breeze. We love racing. You do? That's right. net net. And it's 33 cents and you just as testing just received that move 33 cents get out of town. In the chat room kicker. For the mere mortals podcast gave us 2222 row of ducks. Yeah, yeah. Rubber Ducks. He says if you're going to start going live, we need the details. What's the general start time and if I donate enough sets will

you make it later? So I don't have to wake up at an ungodly hour. Oh, that's right. Because in Australia, can I get a low boost as well please add them and now as the French say it is timeful low boost that now I understand why I was getting booster grams from Darren because he was doing it on breeze on episode 75 or 76 so that is in the split. Okay, Mystery solved. Gotcha. I'm

pissed at myself now. Am it get another test boost from Martin and 400 SAS and then we get a user this is Sir Harry pilgrim okay, I'm not gonna read out this ungodly long number here. He said 3569 says to found he says Sir Harry pilgrim boosting my birthday a couple of days late fifth of March boost Yes, baby boost boost. Again, this looks like well, I don't can't tell if this. These

are just numbers. You guys you got to put a name in there. User 717454 bla bla bla bla bla gave us 1000 SATs he says boost from recovered podcast podcasting hope since 2,007x covered podcast How you doing? That was it. That was it? Well, and then we have our monthly Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, that was that was it for that message. Well, this is from Adam. Is that you? I don't know. What did I say? He said Nice to meet you.

Ah, obvious demo booster gram demo demo so don't let the pastor know that you're self boosting as you get to talking to Krimson Algol 6666 again through brazenly says booster grams are now 128 characters in breeze Yay. Oh that's nice 20,000 sets through fountain from Stephen North port Florida. Keep doing what you're doing. Here's a boost for humanity boost. Oh, we need a boost for humanity. Boost Okay. All in the works. Nomad Joe 2000 sets he says live sounds awesome.

We just did he just said that. Oh, no, that was from Spencer's sweet. Yeah. Oops, Toshi stream, send us 5552 sets through fountain and he says in terms of I like I like these very, you know, the conversational boost. In terms of amount of boost. Dave Jones has second place for two Satoshis dot stream podcast. Adam takes eighth place. What that Dave is the same Dave to its first place for Dave. Boom. I'm a loser. But is that is that is that in amount or frequency?

Both? know you've talked about your eighth place? Yeah, that was a mount. Okay. But I think I spend a lot of boosts. One thing is one thing is very is certain. I am the master of boosting. I clearly I give up so people need to support us with more so that because Dave is clearly funding the entire network since day one. I might. Yes. I mean days money. i It's it does feel like that a little bit and I'm a bit concerned about you. Do we need to have a booster vention?

Booster Vinted must have downregulated Oh, you mean Melissa beat you over the head and said what? What are all these charges? I prefer to say that I did it to myself. To you David asked me said how many posts? Do you really said? Circular baby? I don't know. Moving around internet tokens? Yes, exactly. It's internet money. Exactly. Mike Caden, he have red circle centers. 2222. Sets road ducks. He says. He says premature ejaculation. That's hilarious. And Niall sin is 101 He says great comment.

Okay. All right. Thank you. We aim to please. Yes, yes. I thought it was too. Yeah. Ron pleau. Now, can I just say something? If we if we ever implement the timelines, then you know, you could in your interface, click on that. And it would say, Oh, this is exactly where he boosted grabbed and we would know what he was talking about. We'll see we had this good. We had such an excellent idea of putting a link to this timestamp where you can just click on it

and listen to it. Does that work? It does it absolutely does work. Well. I'm too lazy to actually do it. So is that in heli pad two? Oh, no, it's not exposed in Hello, Pat. That's a good idea. I should expose that. expose it Dave Jones exposure? Yeah. As That's called being a podcaster this is this is the Dave That's the podcaster who is a good podcaster Ron ploof send us 211,200 sang Holy moly. I'm gonna roll out the big baller for a shot Carla 20 blades on I am Paula.

Boost. A hunt this a 100x Rush boost as a Thanks to Dave for helping me here my first few Oh, griddle cakes radio podcast exploring the lost art of audio storytelling since 2005. griddle cakes lost audio podcast griddle cakes radio podcast. Oh, I know griddle cakes. I think they've been around forever. Ron please do you know rounds. I know his his brother David. David. Okay. Luke wasn't a speechwriter for Obama. No. He's a different guy. Great. Okay. Cakes radio. Sounds very familiar to me.

Thank you for the Yes, thank you so much for that support. Killer. Floridian slips and it's 5000 SATs. To found and then he says thanks for assisting on podcast index dot social Dave boost yo, boost boost boost boost boost see three more. Nicholas bhuntar been I'm going to this get a little dots over the top of the use I'm going to say booster booster. Nicholas bhuntar PS bar is gone gunta 1000 SATs through breeze and he says boosting for podcasting 2.0 heart. Ah fat streaming back atcha

We love you too. Sir Doug sent 4400 sets through fountain he says boobs yo yo Yep, we're at the end of the end of the day louder. The comics through blogger donation, comic strip blogger 10,033 sets through pod friend and he says Hi, Dave and Adam, thank you for your service to podcasting. And if your listeners want to hear latest news about artificial intelligence, they're invited to listen to AI cooking. bi weekly podcast spoken by Gregory William Forsythe Foreman from kin, yo.

Yo. Comics your blogger gets monthly. Cameron rose give us $25 Jeremy new $5 pod verse $50. Mitch Downey $10 Chris Chara Barak $10, Terry Keller, $5. And I added this little bit in here that I wanted to say if you have any ability to donate anything extra, you know, it would be good to go in and donate to things like in a tube that Alex is running out of his own pocket and podcast social.org from John running it stuff out of his own pocket.

It's just I would I would like to just make it make it clear that there's a lot of people will pay for stuff out of their own pocket. And it's always good to support them. You know, if you can what is it? What are they? What a passionate plea Dave? Thank you. It's Chuck Chara Barak. Yes. Yes, sorry. I have to say, go for it. Nice. I considered muting it but I'm like now why let a good sneeze go to waste.

You had a you had a nice new microphone and you just destroyed John Spurlock man, you are a gem and and we're very, very fortunate and blessed to have you inside the group. And I really, really enjoyed sparring with Spurlock a bit today. sparring with Spurlock. I think it's exciting. I think. I think one of the cool things about this community is that everyone's I think what Dave said a while ago is that we're here because we're passionate about it, right? We're here

because we have to be here. No one's paying us to be here. So I think it's gonna be really interesting to see what happens over the next few months. And, you know, I, I appreciate all you guys do and keep going. Yeah. And do you want do you want to just wrap it up a bit with your podcast social.org, just so we can send people there when listening to this podcast is probably already

familiar. But I would, I would basically say the podcast social.org site is just a quick overview site for everyone in the podcasting ecosystem to learn about the new tag, now that it's going to be in the next phase. So now's the time to get hyped and excited about it. And then for app developers, there's a few components. So if you want to read activity pub comments, there's an NPM package called thread cap out there

that's free to use open source. And then if you're an app that wants to do that nice integration that we're talking about from the mobile app, you're going to need to have a server. So I have an open source server component that basically you can use to do that. And that's your mini mini. Yeah, yep. Can you John, can you send me an hour? We talked about this on the dev meeting, but I think Martin may have forgotten. Can you send me like a like a sample output a thread cap? Because I'm

importing it to PHP. And I really just Can I ask what thread cap is it's just a way to take a snapshot of an activity pub Convo, right. So you like you take the route comment, and then some program needs to go and enumerate Oh, what are the replies? What are the replies to that reply? You get it and then so and then at the end, you're just left with like a threaded, Jason object, basically. So it makes people that are used to just dealing with like a single json file hopefully makes a

little easier to integrate. Its activity Pub is not that hard to use. But it's a little messy because like RSS, like everyone does things a little differently. So REDCap kind of papers over some of that stuff. Yeah. Can you send me a sample output though of like, just just what it looks like? The thing is gonna be easier than trying to go line by line through your code and intro to sort of poured it and then FF like I just aim for a target of what the outputs supposed to look like.

Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. Is not good enough. I would not say it that way. What I would say is that I'm terrible at JavaScript, that would be the way I would describe it. Yeah, I would say things are very early days on this, right. So everyone, that's anyone that has any feedback on any of the projects that I'm doing or anything like that. And I think gear may actually was going back and forth pod station, is doing yeoman's work of like filing bugs against Yes. And getting

some of those fixed, oh, dynamite. So he's been doing really good work. So we've been I'll definitely integrate whatever he's, he's finding into the mini pub documentation, actually have some example if people want to not use mini pub, but just want to do it themselves. I even have some documents and like, here's what Mastodon comes back with. Here's what Pleroma comes back with acid that might be of interest to developers that are kind of like me and want to do everything themselves.

Yeah, sure. Seems like party code. Sure. Seems like activity Pub is is a winner. The stuff we're doing with it? I mean, it just seems like it's a big thing overall, for decentralized, whatever, whatever it is, the whole world is kind of building. Yeah, it just we just need tools like thread cap where, where people like James can just have a tool to output this stuff into a usable format on the side and not have to do all the guts implementation of activity pub, that, that we need the next we

need a next layer up, things like that. Yeah, because that's one of the reasons I'm trying to do the red cap into PHP is because we're just need more of those layers of useful for a pod friend, I think too, right. I think his back end and thinks of you. So yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks to all of our supporters with your time your talent, your treasure, thanks to well everyone who supported this. Steven B. Thank you very much for your guidance. Alex

gates is hanging out in the in the chat room. Who else is in there though? Chad F. Yeah. It's our cast, sir. bemrose making sure we don't screw up the chat. Appreciate that. Steven bass Spencer. And I'll have the value blocks stuffs sorted for for the next episode. Thank you both for your for your patience with me and for your passion. Yeah. That's the passion I'm talking about right there. Thanks, guys. Have a great weekend. All right.

That's it for podcasting. 2.0 Episode number 77. We back with another board meeting next week. See you then. Take care everybody have a good weekend? You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org. For more information