Episode 73: Spinning Gold out of Yarn

podcasting 2.0 for February 11 2020, to Episode 73 Spinning gold at a yarn with excuses to Rumpelstiltskin. Hello, everybody time once again for the board meeting of podcasting 2.0 Everything happening at podcast index.org with the podcast namespace. And of course, where all the action

always takes place podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the only guy who can refresh my metadata, my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Jones. You're such a pro. For like, is it true me? So you have you have the road? I'm gonna let you talk about that you have you've you've got the Rona. But is it true what you told what you have

told me that? You've never missed a broadcast in your entire career because of illness? No, 40 years. I've never missed a broadcast ever, for any reason. So there has to be at least one or two stories of you have the camera, the cameras stop rolling, go and barf your guts. In the bathroom. They come right back when the camera starts again. Not quite that story, because another interesting fact I have not vomited since I was 12 years old. Not kidding.

Is this is this like? Is this like Prince Andrew doesn't sweat. Is this the same? I don't know. It's I really don't know. I just I don't do that. Okay, yeah. Yeah, taking control of your that was that thing where you can like lower your breathing your heart rate. But will you've just told your body? You're not allowed to correct it? The same way I told my body. We're not getting the Cuf didn't listen to that or did not listen to it. And I think

really, I picked a fine time to get it. Because things are just blowing up around you with marketing opportunities for podcasting. 2.0. But, and I know you had it, maybe everyone I know has in fact, I was feeling a bit left out at this point. At least twice, maybe three times. But really at least twice. Yes. Yes. So that would have been different. Doesn't matter who the hell knows. I don't know. I mean, I took a test. I got two things. You know, I could have the cool if I could be pregnant.

I don't know. I mean, I don't have any reason to, to give babies have any reason to trust anything at this point. But two things of note, and I still am definitely I know I'm ill because I feel well, here's how I feel. I have taste and smell but taste is haywire. It's like mixed up. Or it's it's like it's removed elements from from my taste sensation. So, I had a sip of wine yesterday. It was like biting into tin foil. Yeah, and coffee. It's like really, really, really better. As Yeah,

and then the worst part is, weed is like a crunchy old stick. So that's out. That's your worst part. That would be you know, the worst part is there is definitely some brain fog, cognition something going on. Because I you know, I use my brain a lot. And I feel it the certain things this is like, Oops, just kind of mushy. And that's really annoying and a little weird. That the brain thing. Yeah, there's there's definitely some brain fog aspect to this where you're just kind of you feel

like you're floating. Like you just don't mind, your brain can't really land on one thing for more than, like, it's sort of it's, it's tickling it. It's not actually a little bit of that it's more just like, you know, it's like I need to come up with a title, you know, and I just can't focus on that one thing, everything else I can do. But one thing my brain goes now I'm done with you.

But not for you. And we do have two guests joining us of course not really guests but board members who will be with us in a moment here in the podcasting 2.0 board meeting. But I just because it's also about them. I want to say how important it is what we're doing here. And maybe not for the reasons that that people might think when I say that so I did another live thing this morning with Brian Kilmeade Fox News is another live show. You've done three podcasts in two days

with with the Rona. Yeah, your machine Well, it's an important time and there's stuff to discuss. But you know so in now this is a live radio so it's a coast to coast is a pretty big audience. And of course it's it's it's great to do live radio, but not really because well we have 16 minutes here hard out at 52 and just like Oh, yeah, I forgot your interruptive monetization model is very annoying. And, you know, so of course, what does everyone want to talk about?

Canceled culture and Rogen? Right. That's that's what that's what. And that's why they're having me on. So well, why are you having me on? Well, you have a solution for this. And yeah, that's that's the marketing moment that is happening right now. Right now, if you look at anything about Rogan, somewhere, you'll see podcasting 2.0, as an alternative that people are talking about. Diets which which in relation to Rogan, I don't like some people

are going off on this thing. Say, Oh, well, hey, Joe, come to podcasting. That's not that's not going to happen. This. The significance of this lies elsewhere. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it has nothing to do. Yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah. But we're on the radar. That's what's now I've look, I was there when we did 1.0. It takes a while for things to build. And there are moments when you get boost. And this is

one of these moments is not the definitive moment. But what what is interesting is that people are starting to realize that Kancil culture is not really political or ideological. Yeah, it's a part of it. It's being used right now to establish the rules and regulations. So it's easy for people to agree with the people who are being banned, banded around first. But it's really a class struggle. That's what to me, the truckers is about. This is the working middle class, who are saying,

No, we're done with it. And the ruling class, which really used to be the working middle class, but they got elected to something. They they kind of despise the working middle class. So you know, that's why you see politicians having dinners without masks, and the people serving them are all messed up, you know, it's a, it's such an obvious thing for me to see. And, and what is really underlying all of this.

And that's why to me, we're doing really important work. And it's and that's just a few pieces of what we're doing is the ruling class does not want the working class and middle class to have their own communications channels. And that is evident in everything that they're saying and writing. It's that, well, we just can't have Joe Rogan say that. We just can't have Alex Jones, they just can't have that. Why? Because they want everyone to listen to their established messaging

system. And that's why when the new messaging system, which is podcasting starts to say, oh, there's an alternative to pharmaceutical products that are being sold, that's when you know, the money comes out. And that's when people go full bore. But it's Joe Rogan now or anybody, anybody that you want, and anywhere and on any platform, any any opinion, it's, it's that person now to establish the rules and regulations, and then those will be used against everybody. And

this brings me to podcasting. So, you know, when when someone says, What is podcasting? 2.0? Really, it's apps and services that use the upgraded podcast standards. That's it. It's not a it's not like a huge, complicated question to answer. And the first benefit we get is if you use a new podcast app, a modern app, your podcast that you listen to won't just

disappear overnight. Now, that's not explicitly true for for every app, you know, every app can make its own decision, but most of the apps that new podcast apps comm get their, their debt data from the index. And that's a pretty safe place. And so that's where I'm sending everybody. So I'm sending people to new podcast apps calm so when people hear podcasting, 2.0 they're seeing apps and services, they don't really know

much else. But for that very reason. I think we need to recognize that podcasting itself with the conversation is is driving it only in to look at it as one thing. It's not really an industry. It's more like sports, not a sport, sport, sport. You can do sport by yourself. You can do it with your buddies, you can do it professionally. You can do it. commercially. This it's sport, and it's just as important to sport is essential to the human spirit.

Tone interesting. Good. No, go ahead. I want to disrupt your flow. Tony Khan from WGBH Who is an obvious admission to the podcast Hall of Fame. He was one of the first to believe in the vision of podcasting. He worked at WGBH WGBH, NPR, public radio in Boston. He was, as far as I know, the first to put public radio on podcasting champion did very, very hard. He was, and I hope he's still alive. I haven't heard from Tony in a long time.

He really blew me away. In those early days, he talked about podcasting, bringing something to broadcasting which had been lost and could no longer be recovered. And he said he called it civility. And this is the truth about podcasting, any podcaster? Who was podcasting in the past 24 months, I guarantee you, no matter what your podcast is, you've received at least one email from someone saying, Hey, man, thanks for keeping your

podcast going. It kept me sane during these crazy times. And that can be a podcast with five people listening, or 5 million people listening. So to look at podcasting in an industry is always going to be limited by the amount of money and whatever the amount of award shows we can do. There's an endless supply of civility in the world. Um, that's all I had to say. So it's important what we're doing. Well, there's my my crew fog has screwed up my big my big finish. Yeah.

He just fell off the cliff. I did. It was a The thing I've been thinking about this week, as there's this, there's been this sort of background radiation of commenting going on on podcast index dot social about, in this comes, this comes up, it's a cycle that comes up every, every four months or so, of, should the index be divorced from the, as far as marketing goes, should the index be divorced from the namespace be divorced from value for value, but like, should all this is? Is

there a podcasting? 2.0? Because because the Free Speech stuff, and that that comes up on this sort of timed basis? The what I've been thinking about is there's there's an easier and there's sort of an easy answer to that, which is, oh, well, the you know, the index doesn't have anything to do with the namespace and blah, blah, blah. But as a whole podcasting two point, I don't think that there's that they're separable

and then maintainable as independent things. Because what podcasting 2.0 is, is just a representation is a solidified representation of what podcasting is. Podcasting is, by itself, decentralized and censorship resistant. And it's, it is it is a representation of uncancelled ability, if that's a word. Because just like Sam Sethi said, you can, if you if your host, D platforms, you so to speak, you can go get it, go to another one. And you your, your data is portable, from host

to host. And if, if all of them cancel you, you can host it yourself. That is something that is inherent in podcasting. That's not something that podcasting that podcast index, brought to podcasting, podcasting was already that thing, what we did was, was create the API, and the database, the downloadable database, to where all those things can, where all of those distributed feeds can be

downloaded in easily in a single place. That's that's all we did, we we put feet or, or mate took the cont the the concepts, and then the building blocks of what podcasts and podcasting already was, and turned it into an easy to use thing. And so there doesn't even have to be a podcast index in order to carry out that mission. I could just take and run those, run those background services myself on my own machines privately, and then just make it down, make the database downloadable problem

solved. That the that is what it is. We decided to go one step further and create the API to make that easy for apps. Well, then the API is the sandbox for the new for the namespace. And these things build upon each other. So what really what we ultimately did, and this is why I don't think that they're

separable. We we just took What podcasting already was, and tried to preserve it, which was the, which is the first part of our mission and extend it. Those, that's, that's all we did you, if you try to separate the index from the namespace, from value for value, if you try to separate those all into, into into component parts, you just it just all falls apart, you lose it. Because that's not no longer an accurate representation of what podcasting is, as an as a as a

medium and as an industry and as a technology. So I don't I don't think the the idea that the Free Speech part of things is going to turn people off so much that they're going to abandon namespace tags, because the index doesn't censor people. I don't think that that is even an issue. I've heard so much talk

about podcasting. 2.0 even even on a clip yesterday that John Spurlock shared some some guys talking about podcasting 2.0 It never it just never came up. It's not an issue because they already know that that's what podcasting is. Excellent point. There's a there's a an article another article in The Atlantic that came out today, given the Atlantic is definitely a publication of the ruling class. Podcasts are no longer private conversations by Caitlin

Tiffany. And I just took two paragraphs from this just to give you an idea of what the thinking is, by the way, there's there's no real conclusion to this article other than it's an outrage that this can be said and people can hear it. That's really what is being said. In the beginning podcast money was exchanging hands person to person through monthly fees from listeners via platforms like Patreon. The big money podcast wars are just a few years old, and truly enormous exclusive

deals like Rogan's with Spotify are still in a trial phase. But as the business grows up, and as more reporters or agitators invest the time in poring over all this content, the days of podcasting without consequences will be numbered. without consequences, wow, podcast, I want that T shirt. I'm podcasting without consequences.

And then the second that love that, like it as podcasting becomes further entrenched as a mass media format and host platforms grow in size, these pressures will only increase work like Patterson, that's a guy who listens to Rogan's show for to note what he's doing wrong, I guess paid for it may be getting easier as well. The past two weeks, this was

interesting on a different level. The past two years have brought lawsuits against major podcast companies like Sirius XM, and Spotify as gimlet media for their lack of podcast accessibility features, including transcriptions. So you see there's this whole these opportunities that we have that of course, because of the wow, people are saying stuff I don't like therefore, I write articles about it. Is not getting the light of day. Yeah. So regarding regarding the separation of the

namespace, look at how the development works. We are literally developing the activity pub commenting tag, technology element OP on the fly, you know, doing it with everything in unison with the API with the podcast index dot social. I mean, it that's just how it that's how it works. It's we didn't even plan anything that way. We just said, Let's do it this way. And it felt good and it grew. This, this would be

the equivalent of a fork if anyone wants to do that. But I think I think that would be a very, very unwise thing to do. Well, if you but I want to get it out there that I think that would be an unwise thing to do. Because I don't like it when I hear this personally. If you don't like if you don't like the deep the uncensor ability of podcasting 2.0 You don't like God? You don't like podcasts? Yes. Yeah, exactly. You're no longer talking about

podcasts. You're talking about a centralized system. Yeah. Because that's, that's how it works. So you know, I don't want I'm not going to be the guy that goes out there and champions. The free, you know, we roll good and come to come to the fucking No, no, I'm not No, no, of course not. It's just not me. But, but what people are doing is they are interested in what this is. They may or might they may come for different reasons.

So whatever you have your apps and services on podcast index.org/apps which links from new podcast apps comm make sure it's good because people are coming to check out Your stuff. We we are, in a sense, Google. We're the Google layer because like, I really hate that comparison. But I know, I know. I know it. We mean, we're the search engine. The reason I said Google is because last night, just, I just checked and I searched I got on Google and I searched for Info

Wars. pop right up. I, there's a link to info wars.com and Alex Jones has been removed from all the major podcasting. archive.org is maybe a better, okay. Okay. The, the, there's a layer, there's a layer there that we represent, which is the layer of, of information storage, and collection, then the application layer at the podcast app level. Anybody can create a podcast off the APIs index data, and anybody can filter out whatever they

exactly. Problem solved. I just don't think it's a problem. It's just not an issue. Well, okay. So and I'll just hit it and I'll be done with it. And we can bring in our guests board members, it. Podcasting is becoming extremely political, and I don't like it. And it's unnecessary. And I'm speaking specifically about the podcast Hall of Fame. I have they always asked me to vote I don't believe

in it. I was very honored when I got you know, the whatever. Pod father Hall of Fame Award 2015 Quite a while ago, and then unlike him, okay, I kind of understand why I was asked and Dave Winer and a couple other people. But so what are all how does all this other than I just tried to understand what the criteria is, you know, for an award or a Hall of Fame. And I looked it up this year, because, of course, I was asked again, I did not participate in beauty contests. I also don't tell

anyone which app I use over the other. The Hall of Fame eligibility, the criterion for entry into the Hall of Fame is a combination of mainstream popularity, being considered a great podcast or contributor to the industry by their peers, or or excelling in the medium of podcasting, as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. Candidates should have something to offer in all three of the categories mentioned or be so outstanding in one or two, they deserve

inclusion. And to be eligible, a nominee must have completed five years since their first involvement in the medium. But longevity should not be considered a qualification in of itself. So I'm not I'm not quite sure how that works. But I was happy to see Dave Slusher. inducted into the Hall of Fame. I think the only that I knew of some of the other names but Dave Slusher, who had evil genius Chronicles he definitely was early in the development of podcasting, he was key he was

there and a key part of the feedback loop. But when I look at these these criteria, or criterion as they say tell me why Joe Rogan is not in the podcasting Hall of Fame. He he is a wonder he is he has created an entire format that is now replicated by mainstream it is it is the largest podcast by far he has brought more people to podcasting than I have. He has spawned more entertaining

podcasts that I can count so let's stop this shit. Politics should get out and let's just look at it as sport you can now play in honor of this segment you can now play the greatest ISO in the history of ISOs Okay, is it the one I think it is? The only one okay here we go podcast canceled was that that's that's some that's that's where I go to the whale. I'm not revealing. Oh, okay. Oh, well hold on a second since since we're playing it that way. Loose. Mm hmm. Yeah,

I got my own well, brother. Let's bring in our guest board members for today. They are the the two head honchos. The only men that count over the odd that hated if I said that. They are the men behind Buzzsprout. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome back to the board meeting. Tom Rossi and Kevin Finn. Hey guys, thanks for having us. Hey, guys, good to be here. Oh my god. You both actually did you tube openers. Great. Hey guys, guys, like and subscribe.

Like Button I just got this got this picture of of swinging the book boardroom door open in Kevin's Kevin's here with a half eaten donut and a cup of coffee guys, I'm glad I was, you know, I was wanting to have y'all back home because there's so much going on and the last time. This is funny. This is funny how much of a cycle this is the last time that you guys were on the show. I had COVID Now, Adam has COVID

Hey, wait a minute. And and the the first time we hit you out of the blue with value for value reveal in the lightning stuff. Yeah. It was like a deer in the headlights. What the heck just happened? And then yet just yesterday. Kevin put bus cast on the value for value with the value blog. All right, finally boost buzz gas. Oh, so Right. And so we'll give you a nice healthy slice of today's value block for the 2.0 show. Yes, we will. Yeah, you will be in our episode level split.

That's right. It's like Oprah's book club. Only different. Yes. You'll get some SATs and you'll get some sass. Yeah. And I've been to school on the value for value payments all week. And so that was the last to do on my list was to make sure buzz cast was lightning enabled. Yeah, we were trying to figure out the problem with you can't get your list grams out of telegram though. So trying to

figure that out. I thought that I thought that Satoshi stream that didn't help pioneer that How come that doesn't work? It does work because people are using it. I just we're we're missing something. I don't use the tissue industry myself. So I don't know. Like I'm not the I'm not the guru there. But I posted in there to help Kevin. Yeah, I see the boost coming through. But I can't get the contents of the message.

I think there's there's some way I thought there was some way you could trigger the bot to then tell it telegram you the message with the booster Graham but I could be wrong. Yeah, he sounds right. I just don't know the right command. He sent me a message saying, hey, I need you know, I need this reason. I need my post cast reset so that I can re register in podcast or wallet. So went in there to reset it. And it was literally the first record in the database, because that's the

day that we did it. And you Oh, yeah. And so I reset it. And you know, what I wanted to ask you, you know, what I wanted to say was, you know, Kevin, did you know that you can email support at bas cast calm and have them put your value book in there for you? She said he sent in the email to [email protected] and asked for the value block to be added. And then it gives us the ticket gets assigned to me because I'm the one that does. What's happening here. I'm losing my mind.

Yeah, just trying to do everything by the book. Well, the thing is, though, I don't know that you understand what an accomplishment it is to get Kevin to do that. Because he is you know, he's the UI UX guy. And for him to make it through the obstacles means that we've come a long way in setting it up that he's able to do that. So that's great. I love it. I'm terrified when somebody says he's the UI UX

guy. And then in the didn't have to think about your disgust as you went through the podcast wallet calm process, with with the horrible the UI that i Hey, man, hey, I live. I've been living with that kind of UX UI for over a decade. And I love my Dave Jones work. It is the user it is the user interface equivalent of a beat up f1 fit 1983 F 150. That is that is exactly what you get. Hey, it worked. It worked. I was I was delighted though, after I

set everything up. Then I found like you've got little three little icons in a row in the middle one I think is edit and I can edit my value block on the podcast or wallet. Yeah, but I did. I was telling Dave earlier that I did it after I'd already manually updated my value block and sent it to Tom. And then I was annoyed because the podcast index value block that they wrote out the tags were in a different order than the one I met. My OCD was triggered big time.

Yeah, that's like a you know, nobody sees that. Kevin. It's it's all his interview brother. But I know I know. It's still that way. So I've got Yeah, so you have done a I mean a ton of stuff you you've got. I mean, tell me tell me the tags you've got now you obviously logged obviously, chapters. You are in the GUID like book Hold on. If I if I can just interrupt for one second. I just

want to thank you guys. I mean, because we're you know, talking about the first entry in the database and going back and you know, the first time you gave COVID to us and all that and just reminisce Listening. And you know, look at where we've come from not knowing each other, to now having a conversation like, Man, you've implemented so many tags, where are you? I mean, I just want to stop and recognize that and thank you for it.

Well, thank you guys. It's it's been great to see the things that we've been able to accomplish in such a short amount of time. I mean, it's, it's benefiting the whole industry for which we are a part of and so we're really thankful for the work that you guys have done. Yeah. Yeah. What do y'all support? Now? Y'all see y'all have good down. Yeah, tag wise we do. Transcript locked funding chapters, sound bytes, location, person, Gu ID, and value. And value is not in

the UI. That's a support request. That's robot Tom, just send a robot, like go straight to Tom, which is a valuable thing to know. Because you can just put in a phony value blog request, and then just really ask him anything you want. What's great is I got to test that value system yesterday. And I think he had an in within about 10 minutes, email. And within 10 minutes, he wrote back and said, I'll say, Wow, that's really credible. It's really cool, man.

And so what you've got, you've got an on the chat on the chapter front. You pray Eve, I think y'all tweaked that at one point. And now you've got most everything that chapters can do in there. I mean, not not literally everything. And like, there's some other stuff that's kind of obscure, like you can add locations to chapters, but he's got the main ones. And you've got the you got pictures. Do you have links? Yes, we have links and pictures. We launched it with just links.

But we came back later and added images. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Oh, yeah. How much overhead is that? How much overhead? Did that add for you with the images? Making? Does it make a dent? No. I mean, the goal with chapters, right is that it should reduce overhead, because we're moving out of putting all

that inside of metadata, making it a link in the RSS feed. So this is a great example of where, you know, it's benefiting both Buzzsprout in the podcast index for us working together, because eventually we hope that more people will respect the chapters tag and stop pulling meta information out of the mp3, right, which will make everybody's life better. Yeah. Did y'all see that Google? drop their namespace? Evidently, evidently, they just abandon it. And Google abandoned something.

No, that never happened. They say it was a sunset. It was a beautiful sunset. It was yes. Like, no, you had to see that. Yeah, I was glad to see that. I was glad to see in, get your thoughts on it, that, that they not only abandoned it, which I thought it was. It was kind of a waste of everybody's time, but that they also took the documentation off and appear to be saying like, Look, don't even use it because a lot of times those things get

abandoned. But then the the the information about it stays up online, like, like Symbian iOS II? Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to Apple who took the documentation down before they stopped. Doing spec is still not published. I'm still looking for the AppleScript documentation. Honestly. It was never findable. Yeah, try it try to Google for the Apple podcast or recommendations like the best practices. It's it's unfixable?

Yeah, it's completely unfindable. Yeah, I think the link in their, in their DTD that you put in the top of every RSS feed for podcasting goes to nowhere. It's a portal for the standard for the for a podcast RSS feed includes a link to a forum for like, Hey, we're moving it forward. Yes. Well, this is what I wanted to kind of get into a little bit because I want I want to really opinion here. The Google namespace probably should have never existed, so that's fine.

But now what we're left with really is for now obviously, there's others I understand that there's W core, there's there's things but as far as main stream act, actively used, that's not the right word. I'm trying to say. Anyway, as far as important to podcasting namespaces go right now. You have iTunes and you have the podcast namespace. I am still have a deeply held belief that the podcast namespace should be the single, holistic, fully baked namespace that incorporates everything.

Now, because iTunes belongs to a company, it doesn't belong to podcasting. Do so that makes me think that what we shouldn't be doing Long Term is incorporating the iTunes tags into the podcast namespace tags, so that they have equal representation. So that some at some point in the future, let's say it's 10 years from now, some point in the future people can just drop in the podcast namespace and have all of it and not have to have

a, the the open source podcasting namespace. And this other namespace is owned and operated, controlled by the largest company in the world. Yeah, I mean, it's reminiscent of what happened with HTML on the web, right, with Internet Explorer, and Microsoft creating all their own standards. And I think we reached, you know, Pinnacle garbage with like, ie six, or IE seven. And that is where the W three C as an organization came around and

said, the web is bigger than Internet Explorer. And there needs to be some standards, and they started working on, I think it was first x HTML and Bordado, transitional and for Dotto one. But then when they came out, they finally put a really good spec together with html5. And at the same time, Chrome launch on latched on to that or the Chromium project or whatever. Anyway, we don't need to go through the whole history of what happened in the web. But it's, it's, it's similar to what

needs to happen in podcasting. So I would agree with what you're saying the position that you're taking, and I don't know that. I mean, who knows what goes on behind the walls at Cupertino, and what their their motives were when they came out with a spec. But you can't really point a finger at them and say, You guys shouldn't be doing this when the community when podcasting as a whole hasn't offered an alternative. Yeah. And so I think that is the direction that we need to move.

And then when we get to that point, then we can, you know, start to point the finger to him and say, Hey, we really don't need you guys providing your own namespace anymore. This one covers everything that you have, and more so and you can support as much or as little as you want. Can it can ask the question. So does this mean that we will replicate tags that are in the iTunes namespace that will replicate them in the podcast namespace? does that also mean

it'll have the iTunes colon block? I mean, will it have iTunes in there? It won't have that. No, it will just be like, like, for instance, in the podcast namespace, there is no, there is no block tag. There is no podcast colon block, right? Yet. There is a proposal for one. The iTunes does have iTunes colon block. So we would just when we implement podcast colon block, that could be a direct

replacement for iTunes block. And we would do that we would just go through and say, you know, okay, here's this, this tag sheets. And here's, here's my prediction. Google saw that Google knows what we're doing. They dropped it, they gave up they're fine. I think they're fine. If they do anything, they'll use the podcast namespace. I think Apple capitulated. It, you know, a lot of things happened in tandem, I had a conversation with the Oh, my God, I forgot his name

already. Games, bugs, yeah, bugs. And I said, You're crazy. And he said, That's a great way to start a conversation. And of course, they said what you do, and it's crazy, don't do that. And so they went all in on the subscriptions because I thought that was going to be the big play against Spotify. For all intents and purposes, I think that's failed, but they turned around screwed up what they were doing kind of okay. And I think that they would probably die. Dave, you and I

spoke about it. I think they welcome the fact that podcasting was going to be safe over there were the nut jobs. So they could go and drop it. They dropped it in there doing of course they put someone on to fix the problems. I don't know if they're all fixed right now. I don't think they I really don't think they would mind dropping it all together and saying you know what, use this we don't want to maintain it. It's just

an it's just an annoying add on for us at this point. And but I'm so confident that I love making the annual bet with James Cridland, I will keep winning money from him. They will never release iTunes or podcast app on on Windows or Android. I mean, because they they show no support for it. They don't care for for the four of four of the namespace and 404 of the namespace Yes, yes. Seriously, I I think that's a great idea. I mean, I was a little concerned because I didn't want any Apple glue in

the in the namespace. But if if we're just replicating, you know, the tags that we don't have or work a little differently. Yeah, this seems like a great drop in replacement, said he very expertly. Yeah, and I think they've already demonstrated that they're willing to do it like they have moved away from a few of the iTunes proprietary tags. I used to have a tag. That was no description. call an iTunes or something iTunes go in

description whichever direction it was. But in their latest documentation in the latest release of their app, now they're just reading the podcast documentation or not documentation description. Can I ask you guys did you do you see a lot of people doing private stuff at the subscription stuff at Apple? I mean, just not necessarily your clients Makino is a real uptake on that. I mean, I'm, I'm just saying I don't see it. But no, we don't see it either. Yeah, a few of our bigger

podcasts are doing it. It's still a lot of hurdles to jump through to just be able to monetize one subset of your audience. Course da. Yeah, dude, I don't think just from you know, our chats in the past and stuff. Tom, I don't. I don't think y'all really have a taste for the whole private feed subscription model. Or at least if you do, it's not, it doesn't seem like it's something that you're, you know, aggressive about. Yeah, it's definitely not something that we're aggressive

about, because we think it is just one way, right? It's just one way for a podcaster to potentially control the way that they want their their podcast to be consumed right through a subscription. And that's how they're gonna monetize it or for whatever reason, but it's not the end all be all. It's not. It's not the only way. And I think that's, that's kind of our position on it. Yeah, I like, you know, um, I don't know if you guys have ever

listened to the dithering podcast with John Gruber. And no, I haven't No, no. Okay. Well, they do a I mean, it's subscription only, right. So they've got an episode that they put out as a, you know, a freebie teaser. And then they just if you want to listen to their podcast, you pay him $5 a month, and you get three episodes every week, 15 minutes an episode, and I subscribed paying $5 A month because for me, it's worth that I enjoy that

show. But the that's that's one subscription model and it works for them. And it works for me as listener, but the idea that somebody would do a regular show, and then do premium or special episodes and put that behind the paywall to me doesn't make any sense. Why are you going to take your absolute best stuff and hide that from anybody who's not willing to pay you? Yeah, yeah, this is the best stuff. And this is the stuff

worth paying for. Go ahead and put that out there. And so people can find you discover you find value in what you're doing, and then give them the ability to pay. And that that's like what you were talking about. Kevin, you talked about this on buzz cast, maybe a couple weeks ago, but just talking about, that's great for somebody who has a following Sam Harris as a podcast that I listened to as well. And he has a subscription model where he'll have a limited episode that's

available to the public. But if you want to hear the whole thing, you've got to go subscribe, same thing. But if you've got a following like Sam Harris, or the dithering podcast, then you can do that. But what about the guy who's building the following, if the only offer for him for for being able to monetize his podcast is to grow a massive following, and then turn it all off to turn it into a subscription model? It just, it's just not gonna work for everybody. There's no stop.

A lot of people from being able to get into podcast is nothing like starting a podcast telling a few buddies, and then within five minutes of publishing your episode. There's nothing like that feeling. Yeah, there's nothing like it, you get those Satoshis coming in, be like you just have I'm happy. When we, when we first launched a bus route, I remember, it would send us an email Buzzsprout would actually send Kevin and I an email on time someone published an episode.

And he thought it was so awesome. Because we made it so easy. Anybody could just take a recording, they didn't have to know anything about mp3. They'd have to know anything about encoding, they could just take any audio recording and release a podcast. And we were so excited. We would get an email so that we could go in and listen and see you know what's

out there. Yeah. And it's just it's just crazy. Like you said, just how how easy it is for someone right now to be able to get with their buddies record something and get it out there to the world in no time. Well, I was thinking about the sort of the pay wall type deal because I've thought about this in the past and we've come up with with some ideas and then actually Mike over at Red Circle posted on the on the master on the other day about this thing

called pod pass that I'd never heard of it. If you really are that you are really the slot of the hosting companies, aren't you? You lay down with everybody, man. Yeah, always talking to him. And I was like, I've never even heard of this thing. It's like this fully fleshed out thing from those radio public, I think. Anyways, this fully fleshed out way for like, apps

to pass through a subscription thing and get a token back. And so there's been all these all these concepts around how to do open subscriptions where you don't have to have like a separate private feed and all this jazz. And so I keep bouncing back and forth between is that really like I don't, I don't know whether that's a really valuable use of time because just just like you said, Kevin, I don't Just the whole notion that you're going to take, you're going to make your

content, not listen to people, by most people. I mean, I get it, I understand the monetization of that, of that. I mean, I get I understand the concept clearly. But I don't know, it's just a little weird. And I'm wondering if it's if it's even worth spending time on to come up with an open source, like an open standard for paywalls? Isn't there already something like that? Or there was something that was supposed to do that for? like Spotify is open version

open access? Yeah, we've got all these ideas. Here's the other thing that bothers me. But it's your job to do that. So that's what I'm not sure that it's, it has that has that model shown that it's sustainable for enough percentage of podcast is worth spending all the time and effort to do? Yeah, I mean, my recommendation to our customers has always been that you it's not until you get to a pretty big like until your

following is pretty big. The challenge with subscriptions is that you're doing the same amount of work to create this alternative content, premium content, bonus episodes, whatever it is that you decide to do, whether you have one subscriber or you have 50,000. And so if it takes an extra 10 or 15 hours of your week to go ahead and create this content, are you doing it for $5? For that one person? Are you doing

it for $50,000? For you know, all of them? And so if you have, if you're huge, then maybe it makes sense for you to explore something like that. But the majority of podcasters are not huge. It's not it's not a starter, starter kit type idea. That's right. It's almost like a lid right? As soon as you put a subscription. As soon as you put a paywall in front of your podcast, you just

put a lid on your growth, right? It's not going to grow beyond probably where you are, unless you've got some other avenue of getting people to find out who you are and be interested. Well, what do you think is interesting is if you solve the problem for the smaller podcaster, and you solve it in a way that's scalable, then what you have is a solution for everybody. Right? Yes, yes, yeah. And that's what gets us

excited. So I think what subscriptions today, what they look like is they solved it for the big person, but it doesn't scale down. But if we do a good job of scaling it, you know, creating a solution for the small person, I think there's a better chance that that scales up. Yeah, cuz you can start if you find the like, that's the value value as a solution for I mean, you can, there is no barrier, you just throw it out there. And then as you scale up bigger and

bigger, it just continues to work. I mean, like the the you don't have to change models, depending on your size. And you have to do that for advertising revenue to you can't advertise. I mean, nobody's gonna be interested in advertiser buying buy ads on a on a show this got 10 listeners, but but you can, if you have, if you have 10 listeners, and all 10 of those listeners are willing to give you a value for value, then you can do that. There's no like, Yeah, I think that's right.

Ultimately, the solution to that, you know, has to be scalable. Yeah. You think about the podcaster. And you think about the listener, neither one of them want the advertisements, right? The podcaster, doesn't want that he wants the revenue. He wants to be able to monetize this podcast, but he doesn't want the advertisement in the middle of his podcast. And the listener doesn't want that. It's just the monetization strategy that that

they're aware of. Right. And so this idea that if we can find a monetization strategy that works that doesn't involve advertising, I mean, it could, but it doesn't have to involve advertising, but it's something that can scale up with the podcast. That's, that's the kind of thing that Buzzsprout would be interested in, because that's what we care about. That is the worst. The worst aspect of this to me of the paywall aspect is what I saw the other day. And I mean, you see

this a lot. But I was, I don't know how I ended up on Mamma Mia his website. I was on their website and have a musical. No, not that one. The Australian podcast Oh, oh host or publishing company or whatever they're in. They have it said, you can listen to our podcast. But then if you want to, if you want to get our bonus content, you have to subscribe. And that's like these extra little small episodes that they put out in debt. That was like that seems completely backwards to

me. Because it implies that your base product podcast isn't worth anything in the only thing that you're going to like we want you to pay so that you can get this this other stuff like it tells the world it signals to the world that our actual podcast that everybody listens to isn't very valuable. Am I wrong? No you're not you're spot on and and all of this is book Back to my civility when people really really love a product and

they're asked they will support it. It's the same ask for someone to subscribe to a secret superduper feed and pay $5 A month extra as it is to say, hey, set up a recurring PayPal now it's it's it's it's an old it's it's bringing the old thinking into the new world of paywall I personally, you know, I think the interruptive advertising model is in its last days, this is what streaming has streaming television and movies has taught us everything and everything that is interruptive

advertising is just going down. You know, is it still a long road for radio to go away, etc. But I think that we're seeing that is not the best model. And the with, with asking people to support you, whether it's subscription or value for value, or bringing food to your door, that can be done with one listener, you don't need and this is another thing, I just want to press, the concept of everyone having to I got to grow my show, I have to grow my show, my show has to grow. It's not

growing. It's not a fucking chia pet. It's so we I think we lose sight of that often when we're talking about these things. People just want to podcast for a whole bunch of reasons. And a lot of them fail. And that's what anchor is all about. Because there was no real professional. Like, hey, here's here's a real setup. And you know, it's not just some stupid app, you've got education, you're the the here, here is sports, go ahead and create your own. You know, everything else

to me is just ancillary. And should you know, there's enough solutions out there, I don't think it has to be a technical thing. Yeah, you know, you mentioned a few minutes ago, Adam, like the feeling that you get as a podcaster, when you get that first payment, right, somebody is listening to my podcast, and I get the first

payment. That is an amazing feeling. And then Tom mentioned when we launched Buzzsprout, the amazing feeling that we would get as a platform helping somebody push that content out to the world. And then, you know, just this week, I experienced the third side of that, which is as a listener, I set up a listening app, and I funded it. I funded the wall in the app. And I started listening to podcasts, and I set up my

streaming sets to the podcaster. And I'm getting dopamine hits, as I'm listening to the podcast, knowing that I'm supporting the person who I'm listening to. Yes, yes, like that. You're so good. And when they say something great that I agree with you boost the boost button. And I mean, that's, that is so fun. I'm listening more podcasts this week than I have, you know, in the past two years, because I'm so excited to be able to send money directly to the person who I'm listening to your

entertainment. Poverty. Yeah. But yes, giving me something they're educating me or they're entertaining me or whatever it's doing for me. Now I can give back like, whatever I'm, I'm binge watching Yellowstone right now. Right? And oh, I just started that. Yeah. So it's been great. Fine. I'm watching through the peacock and somebody, NBC is getting rich,

fantastic. But if I if I knew when I was watching that show, I could get super excited that Kevin Costner just you know, often another bad guy boost straight to costume costume with love it. That's what that's the opportunity we have in podcasting. There's no other medium where you can do that right now. That so I sent my one of my favorite podcasts is causality.

John Cage's podcast. And so he puts out it's one of these podcasts where he, he just does this deep dive research into a natural disasters are not a natural, I'm sorry, a an engineering disaster. And then, however long it takes them to research, that's how long it's gonna take, and you're just gonna have to wait. And so then he puts the show out. And it may take two months, or it may take six months. I don't know. But it's gonna it's gonna be good. Is every time one of those lands

in my podcast app? I'm like, yes, I've been you know, a want this because, you know, it's gonna be an hour of just really good content. And so he released his episode a couple days ago. Listen to it last night. I sent him 50,000 SATs, which is roughly 20 bucks in a boost and put in put a booster gram message in there. And it felt so good. It just like you're talking about Kevin, it feels so good to know that within two seconds, he's gonna see he's gonna hear pew pew and he's

gonna see the 50,000 SATs and he's gonna read the message. And he did. He responded to me on Mastodon about 20 minutes later and he said, Thank you so much for the SATs, Boo Boo. It's just that we you know, you can start that. But I mean, that's that's what that's what it's about. It feels so much better than it's like. Like Tom said, everybody. Everybody involved hates the advertising. So isn't it great if we can take it out and make

it go away? Yeah. Anyway, well also then, then you the work you're doing or the fun you're having, or whatever you're sharing becomes something that you're doing for the people on the other end, not for the numbers for advertising. This is what pisses me off. And that's all all the whole podcast is all advertising. Oh, how big had it? Is it? Good? Seriously, it squashes a lot of podcasters. I mean, one of this, oh, I'm too late. I can't get in there. The market saturated?

Yeah. Or they're looking at their numbers. And they're comparing their numbers. I'm no good. I'm no good. Because my numbers don't compare to somebody else's like, Well, you didn't get into podcasting for the numbers. I'm assuming that there was something you were passionate about. But I wanted to talk like this, get a following. But listen to what everyone's talking about growing your audience growing your podcast. That is that is the hosting companies inherent message. Everyone's

huh. I don't know if you've said this at least eight times on this show alone. Growing the audience building your audience. I'm not I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that is a general, it's like media, we still consider it to be media. So what a dopamine hit, knowing that we have a large audience there, we get a dopamine hit with a number change. Yeah, there's no there's nothing wrong with with having a big audience. It's just that's not your measurement of success.

It is I don't I want less less audience people unsubscribe now. But that's what I try. You know, I get to speak at conferences and stuff. And I usually talk about stats, because it's something that I know a lot technically about, but I also love to encourage people with, don't look at your stats, you just That's not why you got into podcasting. That's not how you measure success. It's some people that's the only measurement that they have for success. And that's just not that's just not right.

Well, one day, it may even be heli pad is going to show me a graph. And the stats will be highly interesting, because it will tell me, when people are listening, when they're boosting. It'll give me an average of how many sets per minute. These are things. These are statistics that I find highly interesting. I'd like to know when people drop off, I'd like to know what parts people liked. I think these are

statistics that focus on the core. This is something we've never had in I've been subjected to Nielsen ratings Arbitron ratings, Dutch Government rating systems, and it's horrible. And the reason why it's the most depressing is because guaranteed every single time and I've done television shows with, you know, with 100 people working on it. 12 cameras, and we did a live show, and this was such a kick ass. Everyone's like, holy, I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it. Such a great show.

Alright, everybody guaranteed the next day, crap ratings. It's all demotivating or it's motivating for the wrong reasons. And it doesn't improve the actual quality of the work that way. In fact, it makes it worse over time. That's how we got to 20 minutes of commercials on am radio per hour. Yeah, yes, like five minutes of content and the 12 minutes of commercials. It's all radios almost unlistenable now, it's yeah, it's so bad. Boy, you mentioned streaming. I can't I can't watch TV anymore.

Because if I travel somewhere, I've got a watch on my laptop. I just can't watch live TV. So why would we treat podcasting any differently? Well, because we have a fast forward button. Yeah. Okay. Well, the ad loads going up to I mean, it's just it's it's just such a, like a viral load and ad load viral. Heavy ad load. On the I mean, going back to some tech stuff, what,

specifically on the on the block tag? Tom, what is your feeling about whether or not the iTunes block tag and I don't know if y'all use it on your platform at all, but they, they, we we started honoring the iTunes block tag when we're ingesting feeds at the beginning and then in the US started and then I disabled that because you're the iTunes blogtagged. You have the

Google block tag. And I'm like, Okay, what, I don't know what's what and the documentation for the iTunes block tag says that if you put this in here, then Apple will not index the feed. So of course, they're gonna say that and I'm gonna say anything else. But then there's other hosting companies that seem to treat it as a general universal block tag that says I don't want

to show up anywhere. What? What's your opinion on that? And do you think that the podcast block tag version should be more granular that just says that that allows you to say, Okay, I want this this in this directory to be able to index it, but not but nowhere else. So we don't use the iTunes block at all. Okay?

Well, we do, but we don't use it. So with Apple, you have the ability to put your podcast in or not like that, they're not going to discover it, right, you have to go through a process and submit to them. So the only time that we use the block tag is when somebody says they want out of Apple. And, like, they struggle to, like remember their their Apple ID login or something, and they can't get into the UI anymore to get

themselves out. So we can manually wrap it in there. And the other time we use it is if we say like blocked from all search engines, then we don't use the apple block, we used to use the Google block, which I guess they don't respect

anymore, that we might need to change that code. But if they don't want their podcast discovered, like if you want to go to Google and just type in the name of their podcast, and they don't want to show up in the search results, we use the block tag in the RSS feed, we also, you know, shut off their Buzzsprout public page and we put a noindex nofollow. So

hopefully search engines respect that and don't pick it up. But that's been our only use for those two tags, we'll see that that actually makes it that actually makes it a little bit more confusing. Because there it may see that, that's where I can't, I don't know where to fall down. Because I iTunes block tag really, really feels like an apple only thing. But I know for a fact that that a lot of people are

using it as a general indicator. And, and I just, I think this is a, this is a perfect example of something that needs to be in the podcast namespace and not part of iTunes. Because we can put the pot, we can make a podcast blog tag, and say this in make it better, make it work more granular and make it make a better. I just think we make a better tag. Right? And there's a model for this. There's the robot dot txt

file model. Yeah, yeah, you can say, you know, maybe block is the wrong way to think about it. Maybe it's like, what do we allow? And reverse our verse to thinking? Yeah, and so I would think that we'd approach it from allow all which means any directory that comes upon this RSS feed, you find that you want to index it, have at it, or we get specific. And we say, you know, we want to be in this, this, this, this and this, and we're specific. And then we might say, you know, disallow,

we're specifically saying we do not want to be in Spotify. So Spotify bot comes upon this feed, you do not have permission to call Yeah, like a Spotify is gonna honor that. Well, do they? I don't know. I mean, they they don't now. Yeah. Now, it's one of the one of our most frequent support requests is being removed from Spotify. If they supported a block tag, it would actually reduce support on both sides. Yeah. Because there's not an easy way for us through the API

to remove a show. We have to email him right now. We should so it would be nice to have an allow or disallow Island. I would love to try that. Because the no agenda show feed keeps getting put back on the Spotify. It's all pirated, of course. So it would be interesting to try it with the with iTunes block tag. I don't think I don't think I don't think they they honor it. We haven't adopted any tags, I really haven't engaged much on

any of the tags that involve the name. Like it just it seems like it's a hard tag to build, right? Because Spotify gets bought out by stuck ease and they change their name to duckies listener app. Like I just don't like seeing that in the spec. Whenever there's names of apps and stuff like that, but I don't know what that's like a slug list type thing. Yeah, that slug list, I push back on it all the time because I just hate the idea of codifying the name of a product knowing that these

products change names. I mean, we already see with iTunes, Apple has moved straight away from iTunes, they you know, got get us whenever we use iTunes anywhere the best marketing company in the world couldn't out market out of that. Yeah, yeah. And so that's, that's my challenge. Whenever I look at the tags that involve those, those app slugs, but it doesn't

mean that it doesn't. I like the way Kevin said about a robot robot txt file, maybe there's some type of reference file that we can go to where we use domain names or something that is, um, you know, more objective, not not a slug list that we create. Like, yeah, like that. We need to do that. I'm going to get back on on that for Phase Five, because I think it's, it's it's important to come up a couple of times lately and it's kind of been an annoyance. And it's led to this to this very blatant,

or, excuse me, very obvious shortfall here. So we need to we need to fix that. Yeah, we could definitely work on that. That's a great tag to work on because Just non breaking, it's not gonna break anything for us to put that out there. Um, and so that's definitely something we could work together. Yeah. Okay, cool. That as far as the the other thing that the bus route was super instrumental in at the very beginning was piping, and I was just just some numbers here 263,941 feeds now

are deprioritized because of pod pain. So we do not meet D prioritizing, meaning we are not actively pulling them anymore. We're just getting pod pain signals and that's how we know. So that's an eighth of the of the universe. It's an eight to the universe. It's pretty good. It's not bad out of the gate for some wonky crap Brian put together. Just kidding. It's obviously a runaway success. That's gonna be the subtitle of Brian's autobiography. Brian,

when he's dead, London, wonky, wonky crap. And he's basically running a money changing machine, isn't he? I don't know what he's doing. I love him for it. Because he's Adam, if Adam could code like, what have you done? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 263,941 phase. That's a lot. That is a lot of stuff that we internet. Thank you. Hey, the internet. Thanks. We need we need to put a number out we need to put a carbon number on it. Come on boys, we need to calculate can we do number? Can

we Yeah, can we do like a back of the envelope? Well, you have the data, right? You have some of it, I can tell you how much we pay per gigabyte of bandwidth. And we get back into how many gigabytes typical RSS feed back into Number Have you also have to take in the electricity. That's I want to get it all the way to the climate change. I wanted the issue to be measured in cow farts, you know?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Excellent, Dave. And the debt it was so and we have after the latest round of purging, we have 700 737,946 Dead feet now wanted to say the difference between dead and deprioritize because that was confusion on the mastodon today with dead means the feed is is is not a quality listable thing. So like, we talked about this before, when we market feed dead, it disappears. It's like

it doesn't even exist anymore. And that's because it's either a duplicate of some other legitimate feed, or it's just complete garbage. So meaning it has one episode that's 15 seconds long of somebody saying poop. So that that's what that is the D prioritization happens when? And this was to answer Steven bass question today. D prioritizing means that we set the the aggregator priority for that feed to negative one,

meaning don't poll it. That happens based on the host. So anything, anything from bus from feeds, buzzsprout.com is is all automatically set upon ingestion to a negative one priority so that we don't pull it. It's not that we saw it pod ping once and then D prioritized. It. That's not how it works. It's based only on people that we know, on hosting company URLs that we know are pod ping enablers that are enabled. I love that to Steven B's. Sovereign feeds. Has a pod ping

thing in there. Have you seen that? Yeah, yeah, we set him up. Yeah. But it's super cool. Because in order so you publish your feed, and then you have to solve a puzzle, which is like nine plus four plus two. And then it pings it. Yeah, I guess that's so it can't be spammed or something. You have to you have to come up with a you have to answer the CAPTCHA. Abuse. Yeah. But it's really cool. It works.

Well, one thing Steven has been looking for, and I don't know if you can speak to this, Tom, is he's been, you know, he's created this thing called Sovereign phase where it's like a, it's a fee generator, where you can host a create your own your own feed, and but he, he needs he needs a host on the backend to be able to, like, integrate with so that his his software can sort of be a third party and use a host API to

upload the audio and save the feed somewhere. Is that something that because does breast bass API allow that or? No, no. I mean, you could, you could do it, but you'd be paying for something that you wouldn't be using because you're gonna pay for the hosting. Yeah, I don't think No, I don't think the paying is the part is the problem. I think he just needs the tech you know, Yeah, I mean, our API set up so that you can push episodes to us

through the API. And then you can get back a URL for those. And if he doesn't want to use our feed, he wants to generate his own feed. You could do that. Yeah, that's I think that's really what it's about. It's not about that. Yeah. Anybody could do that with the engine. But then, and he can also publish the feed to your hosting. No, we wouldn't. We just host right, we'd host our feed, which he wouldn't want. Right? Yeah. Right. That's the problem. Yeah. He's

trying to create the RSS. And then ice API is trying to find a partner who's already established who can process customers, I guess. I guess, in a way, like we're the WordPress plugin with the whatever that ties into, to tie into blueberry, like a power press type power. Yeah. And so that that kind of access he's looking for? Yeah, we're just like, I'm gonna give you because he, he wants to

be able to do custom stuff in the feed. So he just wants to say, hey, here's the here's the feed, can you can you publish this for hosted for me? And then I'm just gonna give it to you fully formed? And then sound like he'll have that? No, no, but I mean, I don't know what he feels about Amazon or something. But um, yeah. So for Dropbox, even Dropbox has a pretty sophisticated API, I saw some people are building drop boxes. And that's a very interesting idea to do it that

way. I've seen a lot of interesting projects work through Dropbox. Yeah. I don't know, if they support byte range requests and stuff. I don't know if they'd be fully podcasting compatible. But like Amazon CloudFront, does. That's true. What? What have we missed? I mean, like, you know, y'all, you've been here since the beginning, what? What is, is there? Is there a blind spot in the, in the namespace or the, the Poquoson, 2.0 thing that we're trying to do that we're just not seeing? I think

we touched on the big ones. I like the idea of making sure that we have a compatible tag for all of the iTunes tags. But in 10 years, we shouldn't expect to see iTunes anywhere in our RSS feeds. Right. And we talked about that, Dave, early on, when we were doing the namespace, we were saying, Hey, don't go propose all the iTunes tags, like, we know that that's something that we want to do. But let's not start there. Like, that's not gonna, that's not going to create innovation. It

is something that at some point we should do. But it's essentially going to just increase the size of our RSS feeds, it could create more work for our podcasting apps. But at some point, we're going to have to swallow it, we're going to have to do that. Right. I like the idea of making sure we're cleaning out the legacy namespaces. Like there's no no more reason to carry them forward. Have you guys been following the cross app comments? Development?

Yeah, that's something that I'm pretty excited about. I've talked with Dave about it, he activity pub. So there's been a lot of, I got to stop again, I got to stop again. Holy crap. It's like a beautiful movie. I'm watching one that's in Korean. So I don't understand what they're saying. But I like all the actors, they're really interesting. I like how they interact. And I

think I see what's going to happen. So I'm very, very pleased, it's really exciting to watch that activity pub stuff is, has taken a really big leap over the last really two to three weeks, when people have gotten in there rolled their sleeves up, gotten dirty with with publishing their research. Because this stuff, you can you can conceptualize

how it works. But when you actually get to write code, you really need more than just a vision, or an or a conceptual framework, you need actual nuts and bolts details of the way the protocol functions. And the difficult reality with activity Pub is that they don't, the implementations in the real world of it don't all operate the same way. And you find that out pretty quick when you start poking around at the API's within Mastodon and Roma in these different these different

platforms. So the new work that that John Spurlock has done and then the research recently, by Gail, May, they they really took the framework that Alex gates kind of visualized, and in and just did a bunch of research and published it in document form.

So it's, and then John at created some apps and NPM modules for fleshing it out to make it easier for the apps to pick up and run with and they're just going through that funnel or not, I'm not gonna say final but they're going through that heartache right now of trying to get this some some baseline MVP

type software up and running. So I think I think within the next I really think within the next couple of months to three months we're going to have something that is like usable where you can say okay, go do this, and your app will show calm. Will it take involvement from hosting companies or Can it or should it? Well see, that's the question really, I think I think it really should to be,

well think of it think of it this way. But Buzzsprout when when we are able to pull that into our platform, we host every one of our podcasts as website. So we'll be able to launch the comments on all of their websites when we do them. So I think it'll be it's definitely something that we're talking about, and it's something that I think would really benefit our podcasters it's already pretty sexy though, man when when I publish every

show I do now at least he has a comment thread. And and Dave, you posted a screenshot Oh, there it is on pod verse and like, that's already pretty cool. Just to see that happening. Have you have you seen that? Have you guys seen that in action? I have not. I'm so if you go if you go to pod verse, and then just, I mean, if you just go to pod verse.fm and look and search for podcasting 2.0 and then go in then just click on Like when the most recent episodes, you'll see the

activity pub comments there. So every time somebody, every time we post a show a post an episode, I do a post on podcast, index dot social, and I just say the name of the episode, or the episode number, and this is the comments thread. And then Adam takes the URL for that activity pub post, and puts it into the social interact tag in the fit in our feed. And then immediately pod verse and pod friend to put I think Martin has disabled it for now. He's going to bring it back because he's

recoding. And I believe Oh, it's working on the web version. Okay, cool. Well, that the pod friend and pod verse, both show accont the all those comments in there. So if if you go and reply to it on podcast, index, social, social or any other Mastodon instance, or Pleroma, it will show up in pod verse automatically as a reply. And what's really trippy is that because I do the same thing I do the comment thread. Before we record it's like the comments

are from the future. The minute the episode is there, like shit, there's already comments on this thing. Yeah. It's it's fully formed, but it's like a it's like that. That's every night live. Where Will Ferrell was born as an affiliate as an adult. Like, yeah, but it also it makes it feel like that episodes alive already. Like, okay, oh, that's just people commenting. Yeah, yeah, it's cuz psychological psychologically. Very interesting.

Yeah. And it's a great way to interact. One of the things about podcasting, that's, that's awesome is you feel this connection with the podcaster. And so this is yet another way to connect with the podcaster. Yeah, it would be so how cool is it to have the Buzzsprout podcast page for that podcast? With all these comments? And then you know that it's going to show up the exact same way in every single app. Right? That's cool. Yeah, I think we're gonna

knock behind some wall, right? It's not behind some wall where I have to download an app to be able to see the comments if I'm a podcaster. I don't have to go, you know, download all these different apps to go see what people are saying about my podcast. Yeah. Which has always been the default for some stupid reason. Yeah, and the most common place right now for podcast. reviews and recommendations to come through is Apple podcasts. And there's

it's such a terrible broken system. I don't know, the full like delay or process that, like vetting process that those things go through before they get published. But it is a very common support request for us get that says, you know, I just launched my podcast, my you know, my friend told me, they listened to it, and then left me writing a review. It's not

showing up and yeah, you got to give it a week. Like it's just so Yeah, whenever we say comments, the first thing that people always say, Well, we have ratings and reviews, that's what everyone jumps up and says, and I was thinking about it, just like the at the item level. Can we also have a channel level thread, which then by default becomes just like every other review thread? I don't see why not.

I mean, though, isn't that exactly what a review is? It's a thread of people's and Okay, I think you can I don't know this. There's no maybe not a star rating thing Viet in activity pub. But it seems like that's a channel level and element. And it's just a whole list of people say and I love it. I hate it. That's what it is reviews. Yep. Not it doesn't seem very special to me. And it can show up everywhere. Yes. And that can be specified as the the channel level which

any app could then translate to these reviews. Yeah. solves. Okay. Let's be great, guys. Yeah. We have our work cut out for us. I wanted to follow up on something. I don't think I did this on the last day. Didn't we have a Because because you brought it up on the show, someone sent a real nasty email to you about their podcast not being listed properly on the index is a bad redirect. Yeah. Did you see that? I, I went back at him? And he replied,

yeah. And he was any apologize, I think I think I should, because he was really, really rude about you stupid company, you should be paying me to do it. And wow, no, no, great. But what's interesting is I've learned over time that when people do this, there's something else going on. So when I said, Hey, man, you know, I

don't think you understand we're doing. And I just I think, because we did that after read his apology, I would like to apologize for my last email to you and your company, I was wrong for sending such an email like that. I was angry at all the podcast directories like Google, Apple, and so on. So I lumped everyone together. What was happening with the other companies, they had my show and a new show on their platform related to duplicate show and they deleted the wrong one. I'm

still new at podcasting. I'm only going into my second year and stuff makes me worried of what's happening. Again, I'm sorry, for my last email, shouldn't have lumped your company without directories. hope you can forgive me. Of course, we forgive him. But it tells you something. It tells you something. Those guys are messed up. And and I don't think they're doing anything about it. Yes, we see that in our support. Yeah. This sounds like a support email that you guys would receive. Exactly.

We our support team is incredible. And they are way more patient than I am. Right. Like I would I wouldn't respond well to you. You're fired as a customer? Yeah, no, I've done it. And so I think it's hard to get in their mind that they're just so frustrated, because they just assume you're like Google, they're just screaming into the wind,

nobody's listening, right? Like, like Kevin was talking about when they write into Buzzsprout. And they say, you know, somebody told me, they left a review, and it's still not showing, they write in a bus problem, because we write back to them. They don't hear back, they just find themselves, you know, screaming into the wind. And they don't understand. They don't understand all the crap

that you have to deal with like a like Alberto over RSS comm. He had to write an entire machine learning system to get rid of some of this one bot that kept signing up for free podcast and putting like porn images in it over and over and over. Like, there's so much garbage that you have to get the hosting company and the directories are the filter for Yeah, like it's, it's insane. Which is why we should have we should attack. Anchor, we need

to enter it, we need to enter it. We need to hoist the Jolly Roger. I got it. I got a note from someone the other day and he said because he said I'd really want to get on podcasting. 2.0 Because I start off with anchor. And it's like it's come there's no support. There's nothing happening is really weird that place over there. Just but then once I got some downloads, all of a sudden Spotify contacted me. Yeah, so

that's what they're using it for. They're just looking at anything that pops a little bit above the needle, and then they contact you. Oh, okay. It's a farm team. It's I think it's not a farm. It's more like a Petri dish of bacteria. Is the is the coop incubator. Exactly. Yeah. It's fine. No, it's not far from a fun product that was created to respect all of our competitors Shall we thanks some people you guys want to hang around for this and listen to some booster grams and stuff.

Sure. They want to add Kevin want the he must hang around for this because he's now the owner of a value for value enabled show and he needs to be instructed on how the process works. Got it? Ah, yes. Okay, so he's taking my attention here. You're going to do a live cast, you'll be able to talk about Buddha Gramsci or Siva, yes, yes. This podcast, as you may have figured out his value for value, which means the only way it continues and it represents of

course, the work of podcasting 2.0. In general, all the servers, the liquidity on the node, is everything is financed through the support of the people who find any value in it that can be developers, it's often listeners, it's just people who want things to want to see things succeed. And you can support us in a number of ways. A great way still still valid as you fill out fun coupons. If you go to podcast

index.org. Go down to the bottom there's a red donate button, you can support us through Pay Pal and all the options they have or of course, through a modern podcast app at new podcast apps comm where you can stream SATs to as value for value in real time. It's a dopamine circuit that we've created. I've just learned where the because of the the communications going back and forth, everyone gets a little dopamine hit on each

circle of it. And again, a new podcast saps.com So let's thank some of our let's thank all of our supporters for this week Dave. We have a grand total of one PayPal donation this week, so is that I think we met during that sad puppy is what happened. Evidently we did some okay this is a this is another important value for value moment where you just have to say it's not enough is that what you're saying?

Yes, lick your pencil lead. Kevin. Good note this down when when people do not donate enough sad must put chapter art of really sad things and sad puppies works really well. Yes, children was sad looks on their faces. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Preferably holding a shoe. Yeah. So it I think I have a indicate like as like an indication of why then and I think Ben hills, the developer behind at any time podcast player. I think he perfectly

sums up why we got lower donations. Okay, so he says he's seen as $24.07 And he said, Saturdays I go for a walk and catch up on the latest episode. Not only does podcasting 2.0 give you a great give you great new features and value for value. Turns out it's also it also keeps you fit. Having said that last week's marathon two hour and 10 minute episode nearly killed me. Go podcasting Ben at anytime player. podcast was too long. How many we are actually a public health threat. Yeah, that's

the problem. How many videos have to die before they cancel this show? We're killing our audience. Yes, we're gonna get canceled. That's it. That's that's our PayPal donations. Wow. Yes. All right, good. Let's see here. We got mere mortals podcast or buddy Karen down to the fountain that gave us a big long road ducks 22 to 22. And he says, not sure if this boost is for Dave smooth, crooning. Adam sultry French dinner for the wife for the DJ

groin replacement. That's when I tried to blow my groin off with in any case, these sets are well earned love the last episode. Quack, quack, quack. Yes. Thank you very much. You do it. He's a bro. is able Kirby gave us 50,000 sets. Was he the big baller for today? I think he made the there might have been another 15 We're gonna have Shakalaka blades on? He can he could share his baller status. Curio caster was the app in question here. And he says, I

don't like writing notes. I just want to boost but don't write something you don't know. I'm listening. Boost. The big baller. John's BRT send his 49,000 SATs. That's almost 50,000 I think he deserves a baller to podcast. Shot Carla 20 is Blaze owner. He sent that one through fountain and he just says r&d That's the message r&d Our n or m in an indie or indie random obviously any anything Kevin. Pick up the other day I got a donut This is one of the problems with

donut again a value for value lesson guys. I got a note on the no agenda show and someone said I am an S A hmm SHM no S H M and everyone's like surprised I'm surprised you don't know what that means. stay at home mom. Oh, like I did. I mean it took me a long time to get w f h I didn't I didn't understand that one for you. We know wfh work from home. Work From Home these are all pandemic terms now work for is like what is W F h but I

did not get that so be careful with your acronyms people. WTF WTF whf? Why every time every time somebody posts post one of those like short, something that starts with a W i just automatically think it's dirty. I mean, yes, yes. Yes. You know, like, I'm like wfh, I'm come My mind is coming up with all kinds of horrible phrases. I don't know what r&d is, but I know that isn't BRT. Yeah. Nice. is a national treasure.

Yeah. Thank you John's BRT. Steve Webb Oh Steve when he got cast our God caster Yeah 7777 cents through pod friend and he says because you rock Oh my podcast at audio Bible dot Link has a constant incoming stream of sets and it's all because of you guys go podcasting I like that combo combo it's work Abel Kirby sent us 13,333

sets and he says boost for Kyron down boost. Okay I guess he just likes Karen a lot see oh there's a page that just says boost on it and that's from forged foe is 11,011 11,111 SATs so a row ones through fountain and he just says boost Oh on boost. I was a little weak and we try to kind of flesh it boosted a pinky and this one set just as high. Okay, okay.

This is the one SATs Hey, thanks for your boost boost estetica the inventor of the term booster gram sent us 2376 SATs to fountain and he says love the icon go booster grams. Yeah. How you doing? 15,000 SATs from David meatus and he says thanks for the mention of Fun Fact Friday. See you Monday, Adam Lila and David meet us. Oh my goodness. I sure hope so. I'm going to do a test Sunday

night. mean if I'm negative Sunday night, I mean I'm willing to go to Nashville but I'm I'm more I'm more cautious about that than anything. But did you actually test positive? Yes, I did. I did. Okay, yeah. But I mean, what does it mean? Now? Okay, sure. Maybe first one was negative, but your second one was positive. Right? Yeah. The first one I tested immediately on on Monday. I was like, Okay, let me just check nothing, and then waited until

yesterday and was showed positive. And today I'm sick. I mean, definitely. Um, yeah. I mean, I right now as we speak, I'm sloshing Washington my galoshes, I remember at podcasts business omit me we, me and Tom walked into that. It was like some kind of club thing where they had this huge dance party. I think it was like a heart radio or something like that. He walked in and I'm like, sat there and

stared for about 30 seconds. He's like, No, I'm out. Around he's like he said, you can see the Delta floating in the air. Oh, Billy Newman since 2000 SATs through fountain at said SATs from the Cash App. Oops. Oh, cool. That's working now. Nice. Yeah. Nice. Scott. Listed as s dot c dot O dot t dot T yes in this 10,420 SATs and he says go podcasting. 2.0 very nice respectable Thank you. Okay, sir. Sir Spencer's in a 6887 says through fountain it

says 6887 equals nuts in t nine. This is my nuts boost for being nuts and running with running with the podcasting 2.0 Scissors. That is the new mantra of podcasting. Two ways. Podcasting. 2.0 running this is we're all greatly looking forward to having Dave join us with bowls for buds. Oh, that's right. I'm gonna be on there. Live following no agenda on Sunday, February the 20th. Thanks for all you do. Cool. We are going to be stepping up on

crowdsourcing some code this year. So Dave doesn't have to work front end. Love his lid. Wow, what a punishment day if you don't have to work on front end. Your favorite thing to do that he's saying that we don't have to work on front end really means is Can somebody else please do this? Because this looks like it looks like they're calling McCormick send us 333 sets. Thank you, fountain and he says I deliver legally mot I deliver legally mobbing through the streets. What does that

mean? I delivered legally mobbing through the streets of Woodland Hills, California. Oh, if I moved to Texas, I will only accept SATs from curry for his pod father vapes. Remember he talked about what he was doing when he was listening? He was delivering something. Oh, that's right. That's right, man. I may have to move man, but I got memory. That's right. This is the official, the official drug supplier of the podcast. Two Point OSHA. No, he's not.

He said he said delivering delivering the vapes aren't those illegal in that they make it illegal. I think the vapes that he's talking about in California are legal. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. That's right state by state laws. I still live in good old Alabama. Hey, Texas, man, isn't it? It's, it's like I think they, they immediately throw you in the river with a rock around your neck. That's right for knowledge.

Comic Strip blogger. Hey, send us 10,033 sets through pod friend and he says, howdy podcasting 2.0 Team Dave and Adam. Today I just want to say Get well soon Adam after catching COVID You've won genetic lottery so I'm sure your recovery will be smooth. What am I doing rematch? Yes, I have Vonda genetic lottery. Hey, I need a comic strip blogger boost jingle gotta have one yes that's a CSV I need a boost. I need one in yours baby. Anonymous anonymous boost from the breeze app 5000 SATs nice he

says great plug I don't know who it is. Don't know what the referencing but we'll take it. Thank you. All right. That's the histograms I had. So for our guests here today, no so please see how important the numerology is in booster grams. This is another thing you can play with it becomes really funny you can have donation drives based upon the date, pi date you know the PI 314 You know there's there's all these things you can do special like

episode numbers. I'll give an example from Korea and the keeper I was just looking at the heli pad boost check this out. To Korean the keeper 6969 sets the booster Graham. My therapist wife and I are certified relationship coaches and sex alternative sex educators. If any is interested in a better relationship with better sex contact us. I mean, we're all getting advertised advertising through this method is really interesting.

I tried this I tried this with my first boost yesterday I sent I was listening to the pod land and I boosted them 4401 The message had nothing to do with the number but I'm wondering if they're gonna figure out why I chose that number. Numerology Yeah, it's beautiful to say the the legal pad in front of Kevin is now completely full. You're having a sound of writing margins to figure this donate donations, monthly donations Jeremy new $5 Cameron Rose $25 pod verse, our buddies

at pod verse. So $50 Thank you. Sorry, I'm good rebound writing. Lauren ball $24.20 Mitch Downey $10 Krista ruber, char Barak $10. And Terry Keller. $5. Every time I read Terry Taylor's name I always think of Tim Keller. Tim. Yes. Oh, yep. Yep. Tim Keller, the preacher and Christian philosopher. Would you call it from up in New York? I think yeah, yeah, he's, they've got a podcast with some of his best teachings is really good care. Terry Keller is known as the human subscription machine.

He, he had this isn't Esther's nickname he donates to everything. Mo facts, no agenda. I think D H unplugged podcasting. 2.0 There are just people who are just really rooting for podcasting. 2.0 success, and they will just donate and push and boost everything they can and I love them. All. Right, let's booster gram tutorial over Yes. And thank you to all of our supporters. We could do more on the on the bigger numbers in the Pay Pal because of course the

booster grams. Though some big ballers are nice. We definitely need more to support the 12 $1,300 a month nut that we have now. And growing. Because I hear we're going to be doing subscription shit now all of a sudden. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. So yeah, new podcast apps.com. And obviously, at podcast index.org. Any questions, Kevin? No. You mentioned? Gosh, this is this is totally off of what we just did. But you just mentioned subscriptions. Again, I just had

this idea. Like I mean, it's possible we get to the point where the value payments where there's enough enough apps that support it in the way that we want that you could add a tag that says, you know, I don't want people listening past this much or listening to this many episodes unless you're supporting me at a certain point, but I wonder how scalable that is. I want to keep on doing better on my brand. Have you seen the bonus content tag proposal? Is that almost

fits exactly with what you're saying. It's basically content, certain content is it's behind a paywall that you unlock through a boost. Yeah. Interesting. See, I want the exact opposite. Yeah, I'll tell you what, here's what I know I did you say that Kevin? You say, Me too. Yeah, here's what I want. I love all apps for

different reasons. What I really like is when an app has a queue of new episodes that have just updated in chronological order, I can because I can, like pod friend does this in a very

visual way. Like, okay, here's all the episodes, and this one just came out yesterday, you know, going back and I can kind of scroll back and you know, it creates an automatic cue for me, what I would like, is the minute a new, a new here comes, the minute a new pod drops, the I would like 10,000 SATs to go to my favorite to that podcast right away without even listening to it. It shows up in the app boost from Kevin says, Man, I don't know. But You're 100%, right, like that is the beauty

of you figure out what you want. You know, and if you're a developer, then go and build it. Yeah, the trouble that we get into is when we try to solve problems for other people. And that's what I was just thinking like, I could probably come up with some ideas that may be pretty good for people who want to do subscription podcast stuff, but it's really not where my interests lie right now. So I should probably let somebody else solve

it right on. And we can't solve all problems of the world, but we can continue on the path we're on and just keep doing better. in it. You know, one of the things that you guys were running point on in the namespace proposals was the channel's idea of bringing channels to the namespace. Is that do you think that's still worth pursuing? What do you what are your feelings on that? That was that worked out for like that of Apple and other people have tried it?

I mean, I think it just caused a ton of confusion. Really? Yeah, I feel like it derailed us because we were kind of getting excited about the idea of using channels for networks, but that's not really the way that they're using channels. Okay, I've never really understood the channels issue, is that worth explaining it to me? Is it something? Or is it just something that we're not that interested in?

Um, I like thinking about channels in terms of, and I think this is the way we started bringing the conversation before it died off. But the idea of like, similar podcast or podcast that I'm willing to recommend, or podcasts that have some association, in so, you know, Adam, you're you don't just have this show, you've got other shows. So being able to say in your feed, hay podcast apps, if you want to recommend other, you know, enjoying this show, and you want to recommend some other

shows, here's some other shows that I'm on. I like that idea. But I don't know how, sorry, how far we need to go with that. I think Apple definitely made it pretty confusing with with the way they set up subscriptions, and you had to have a channel and then you can have Ah, okay, so it was under a channel and a channel, not necessarily the show. And like, that's all very confusing. But in terms of a recommendation from the person who's publishing the speed, hey, here's other shows. I'm either

in or I like that. I just want to recommend to people, I think that a valid but we have a tag for that, don't we, Dave? Or a proposal related? Yeah, we have deleted pod? Yeah, yeah. Holy crap. We thought of everything. Kevin and Tom started fleshing that out. And then we had to get guid done first, really, because you don't want to base channels on feed URLs really do want to have them based on some, like

higher level metadata. And so we had that, we got that done. And then we never really returned to talk about the channel proposal more. So. I mean, it's, it may be one of those things that's like, I'm not afraid of of having tags that didn't ultimately end up never getting used. That's not a problem. I mean, people people are either going to use them find them useful, or they're not. Having them there is not is not an

issue. But But I don't want to I don't want to waste time if we don't think it's going to be a real successful thing. Dave, did we did we somehow not? I mean, maybe it came in between shows or somehow I don't think we really promoted the fountain app news. It just came this week, like the mid the mid week, I think, yeah. Fountain fountain is now onboarding. podcasters. With

with a wallet right in the app is amazing. Yeah, the way that works, too, like I worked with Oscar to he, um, I have the ability, you know, what I do is for specific use case for this, I can set up a Partner API. So it's just sort of a subset of the normal API that's restricted to only that specific app or

that If developer set of API keys. And so what we did, what I did was set up a Partner API for Oscar at fountain, so that he could send value blocks into the index for so he can say, hey, hey, podcast index here, this feed ID now has this once this value block, so it'll it'll hand it off to us. And it will stick it in there sort of like a podcast or wallet, but through the API. Very cool. That allows them to do that they can onboard. They rolled their own LNP node, and now they're done.

They take the they do the open source. They took that and made that and use that. Now, Tim is running their stuff like he does for us. Oh, perfect. Oh, perfect. Okay. Oh, good. I'm really glad about that, too. Because a 1010 deserves to me He, He does great work. He needs that business. That's a good business. I'm glad he's wanting to do it too. But of course, that's what he's always wanted. He's always wanted to work with B will always want to do b2b. Yeah, yeah. So perfect business. Well,

congratulations to fountain man. That's that's, that's really, really progressive. That's progressing. What's up? What's up with POD land like horning in on our turf? They're like interviewing Gigi and not and Oscar Mary. They're like, scooping or scooping are our guests. No, no, no. I'm gonna start doing Spotify press releases. Oh my god. Wow. Well, that was that was really rude in so many ways. I loved it. Good. Oh, man. That was almost British level

rudeness. Humor I was good. At it delights me to no end. Because yeah, it's boring to talk about the the legacy app companies, this exciting people out there doing exciting things. And that includes Tom and Kevin from Buzzsprout, who not only have supported this, this project from the very beginning, with their work with their effort, but also with their finances. That is, is incredibly appreciated. We would not be

doing it to this level without us for sure. So I want to thank you again, both personally, but also thank you, thank all of your employees who I'm sure we only make life more complicated for them and, and, you know, especially the Support Division, but also the implementation part. I know it's it's work, and I have an idea of what it takes and and it's just really appreciate it. And it's great to be working with you guys. Thanks. Appreciate it. Appreciate you guys.

Yeah, it's always a fun afternoon. We can talk to you guys. So thank you so much. Yeah, don't get used to it. We, we, we we need to we need to end it because people are literally dying on the sidewalk. Yes, it's getting too long. We've got to stop. Thank you very much, everybody for joining the board meeting of podcasting. 2.0 We look forward to be here next week talking about everything that's going on. Be good everybody. See you then bye bye.

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