Episode 70: Testing the TAM

podcasting 2.0 for January 21 2022, episode number 70 testing the TAM. end of the week once again, hello developers, users, accusers. Welcome to the official board meeting of podcasting 2.0, where we discuss everything that happened the past week in podcasting to point out the podcast namespace and of course, we're all the genius oozes podcast index dot social.

I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who has an endpoint for everyone, my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. J. Jones. Developers. Hello, developers. It is freezing ass cold in Birmingham, Alabama. What do you have there? 20 It was 25 this morning. It's up to 28 now Yeah, I don't think we have much better in Texas all of a sudden that came in what do we have? Yeah, we got 27 here.

It's gonna be it's gonna be like this all week. Yeah, not normal. You know, the part that's that really sucks is I have my whole house generator sitting in my driveway on top of the crate, waiting for the guys to install it. You know, I'm very concerned about the timing of this. That's what I thought you're gonna say is in true prep, professionalism, gamma generators. Also w power won't go out. Thank you, Dave. That's what I wanted to say. Yes, obviously, I

ordered this thing three months ago, it's been a bitch. Just getting it here. I've got a year of freeze dried food in the garage and we won't have a pandemic. Now, that actually, I would read this great article, which is called Oh, it was it categorized people like me, which I identified with it as Doomer was it no Doom or optimists? That is what that is exactly what you write. It's what I thought, like, oh, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. identify with this, I gotta send you this article.

And, and what it says is, you know, you know, Americans kind of Americans, by definition are pretty good. preppers just because of the pioneering nature and our history. But, you know, the people who are prepping with ham radios in bunkers, with the stored food, and that that's really not the type of preparation you want to do. You know, you need to know where the local farmers are, you know, who are your neighbors? Really? You need to understand self defense. I mean, all of these, like,

getting a dog. I mean, these are, these are the things that you really might need. Yeah, I got all that covered. I mean, you get I got the Oh, you got Texas slim. And I've been Yeah, I got Yeah. KMC ranchers, I got everybody's all set up. The last

bit is the electricity. No, and I've been I've been looking at you know, I believe in electricity, you know, just DC current that you can power stuff with and you know, it's like, but the battery technology for any type of charging scenario that will last for more than an hour really is inherently prohibitive, and it's just a pain in the ass. And I've been looking at, you know, old fashioned batteries, basically a

water tower. You know, we have a little a little solar array that shoots water up into the tower, and then you use the water pressure as new as needed to drive a turbine that can power your house. I've never heard of this. But I mean, you've heard of hydropower. Yeah, so this so you're you're pushing the the solar array Yeah, put the makes enough juice to push the water up into the tower? It goes into it trickles it. Yeah, exactly trickles it up there.

And it comes back down gravity feeds turn the turbine. So you basically have a battery. You're storing energy. It's a mechanical battery. Yes. Exactly. Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I'm in this the other way is have you ever seen those beautiful windmills? The it's called the air aero motor. It's kind of the aluminum look that you see on farmlands all over the country with a weather vane yeah with the weather. So that's another way you can pump the water up into the tower.

How much did the like what are those set you back like that? That thing? Is that like 100 grand or is it Oh no. What one of the one of those air motors? Yeah, yeah, this thing? Oh, no, I priced that. And I think it's a couple grand. Let me see if that you know, it depends on how big you want it to be. Yeah, but they're everywhere. I'd have to look at

it. Air air motor or some crap like that has a weird here. Air it was resolved in New Mexico that they tend they seem to be a lot of those in New Mexico. Yeah, are driving through there a couple years ago. There's no wind here in Alabama. That's available. Like dependability, sir. Oh, well, we got plenty of wind out here. Let me see order yours. Okay, let me just take just since we're since we're doing it, let me see if I can find a price for you. Yeah. Yeah, complete windmill 3700

Oh, that's not bad. And then of course, only what a what a solar array with set up. And then you have then of course, you can go crazy with your tower, how high you want that? Obviously, the Alabama Power our power company has they've, they've made sure that none of these schemes actually work because they charge they charge you a surcharge. Yeah, that's what California is doing now. Yeah, it used to be

you could sell your energy back to the grid. Now they're taxing people because they have too much energy. That's the way it is here. What a scam they really scammed everybody on that is horrible. Or it's the same scam as the electric cars, you know, ever get everybody to go electric car for years and years and years. And then, and then all of a sudden, shocker. You realize you're not getting enough tax revenue from gasoline. So let's tax the EVS tax levy, shocker. Hey, man, why did you

guys just print it? It seems to be so much easier. And it's working so well. It's working. So, you know, there's two things I want to talk about, first of all, just the realization, I had it just the other day that when I was in the 70s, like earlier, like 7172, I remember my parents talking about inflation. But they didn't talk about it the way we talk about it today. So today, we say Oh, it's 7% inflation beef is more expensive. And you know, and the beef is doubled and gas is

expensive. And you know, it's based on the consumer price index. But, but that's what we consider inflation is consumer prices going up. But back in the day, this was after, you know, of course, we were 40 years or 50 years into the Federal Reserve Act. And, and the idea that we were off the gold standard. And inflation literally meant that the Federal Reserve and the Treasury would be creating about 2% More money every year. That's what that's what it meant. And everyone

understood that. And everyone was always concerned about inflation, not concerned about the prices rising, because that would be the actual effect of inflating the money supply, inflation. And somewhere along the lines, we got psi opt into believing it's something else. And then you look at the money supply of the US dollar 40% was created in the last 18 months. Yeah, yeah, it's so you know, people don't I don't think a lot

of people stop to think about what inflation does. And there's a lot of good information about this within the Austrian world is what inflation what inflation has, is not simply rate rising prices because of a glut of money. That's, that's just the technical. Like, that's how it happens. That's the mechanism. But then the effect it has is devastating on on on an economy and on a at a personal level level. Yeah. Cuz what happens is you it for when you have inflation that outpaces savings

in any way or wage increases wages. Yeah, it forces each person to take more risk in order to get in order to keep pace. Yeah, because you know, you have to save, but you can't just simply save you have to save in ever increasingly risky ways. Yeah, like so you can crypto. That's where we're at now. You got, you know, a 88 year old grandmas who are having to do or having to watch the stock market. Yeah. And that's because

of inflation. I mean, Grandma should not have to worry about the stock market, she should be able to just have put her money in the bank for all these years and have something just to retire. Yeah, remember certificate of deposit? Yeah, those. Those are cute. But But that, of course, is the follow on effect from cheap money, etc. And then you know, that cheap money pushing up stocks, and then you what you're seeing now is you're seeing that

start to unwind, because the system is in trouble anyway. So I just wanted to point out that it's good for everybody, I think, to think from time to time about what inflation really means and not just, you know, this, what it results in, but the smartest people in the world. And the other one was this, the news about Netflix and I think that will affect podcasting to a significant degree. So I want to bring a get hammered the other day their stock was down like 20% Yeah.

24 this morning. Oh my gosh. And the reason is, they poured billions of dollars. I think it might have been 5020 or $25 billion last year into content. And they had of course they had hits Bridger Too many hits there. As I've always said, when you have a network, you're in a hits based business, you got to have a lot of poop for people to kind of blow through until you get your next hit. This is what it is. I've run networks, it's

very hard to do this in their prospectus, poop poop. Oh, yeah, no, we have this just right there, it says one of our risk is we will have to make some poopoo or, or buy poop. Now, there's plenty of poop on Netflix that scrolled it. But what did what didn't carry over is the increase in users into this into

this first quarter from last quarter. And of course, you know, part of this has to do with people thinking differently about their lives in general, but you know, maybe not having as much home time, etc. But it really freaked the market out. And what you'll hear everyone talk about is the TAM. Ta M, and the TAM is the total addressable market. And so, so they're looking at the entire market for people who are interested in

streaming services, and it looks saturated. It looks like okay, you know, and, you know, we'll see what the fallout will be from that, because some companies will not give a shit at all. But you know, I think Disney is also banking on it. You know, Disney has less poop, you know, they have evergreen poop, which the kids love, you know, everyone loves and you

know, and they do have some some massive franchises. But I think what this will result in is far less podcast deals to try and you know, this is the business model of networks and the hits business, is you sign a whole bunch of shows, and then you find the one hit and it's going to end you're going to turn it into a TV show. I think these days may be numbered. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's completely rational at that think that makes a whole lot of sense. Because that number,

that's what I've been thinking about. Everything has become about growth. And that's, again, another effect of inflation, everything, every industry is growth, growth, growth. And so it like what happens when you run up against that? That wall of market saturation, where you literally can't grow anymore? And who knows where that is? That's a magic number that nobody knows for every for each product. Nobody understands what that number is going to be. I I'm sorry. No, I was just saying

what? What happens? I don't really know what happens. Everything just seems like Netflix seems to just take a hard U turn and go straight back down. Yeah, because there's no growth. That's the problem. If there's no growth, then then there's no interest in holding that stock. And, as I've maintained before, you just look at the numbers in my mind, it's a Ponzi scheme. You keep pouring billions of dollars. I mean, they do $8 billion, a quarter or something,

but they spend out spend on creating poop. Yeah, and this is, and this was, this is part of the beauty of the kind of the, I would say, a lot of what's happening with people signing podcasts is oh, you know, this could be one of these could be a hit one of these could be a TV show. And there's been many examples of that. And now that's going to decelerate, there's no doubt about it. Okay, so let's just, I'm gonna dig into this for one for one

minute. So what about, let's just put a reality on it, let's just say, Spotify. They really, to me, it looks like they have essentially, Joe Rogan is the cash cow call her daddy is? I don't know something. And I don't know if we have numbers on on that show or not whether it was a deal that dude, they don't even give numbers on podcasting income. It's insignificant at this point. I don't think Joe Rogan is a cash cow, either.

For that, see, I'm thinking about shows that are just simply profitable. Yeah, well, he's profitable from one from one way, specifically, is what is it? What is the what is the acquisition cost of a user? And so if, if the 100 million dollar number is right, I don't know, it's never really been confirmed, it's just kind of accepted, then that would be $10 a user, because they claim they have 11 million people who listen to the Joe Rogan show. So

I'll throw out a million and just keep it at 10. So cost him 10 bucks to get to get 10 million users per user. And that user theoretically pays $5 per month or more, either in in subscription fee or in advertising revenue. But point being that if you have if you're that top heavy, and you have one, essentially one hit, or maybe one and a half hit stop, they have one I think it's just I think it's wrong. And I don't

think anything else is considered a hit. What if I mean if Rogan, that's everybody's everybody seems to be befuddled by the fact that even the 270 scientists, quote unquote, that wrote a letter hasn't had an effect. Right? You know, that's PBS economics. They can't have an effect. If they were to do anything with Rogan. That's it. It's game over for the podcast. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Then Then it'll be it'll be it'll be it'll close down. It'll

be over right away. You're correct. And the same thing worries me on the non hit side when it comes to just the regular podcast advertising. Because every month I look at that, at that chart of the biggest ad spends in all at the topic and you do that every Monday. You do that every time James publishes do you put on assless chaps and beat yourself while you do? I don't know why I said that. Dave, I'm sorry. That was inappropriate.

I'm surprised you knew I had so yeah, let me better help. is the number one advertiser every time and I'm like, Okay, if this is this thing goes belly up. It's game over to me like it's just what is better? Is that a mental health to health app app? Yeah. Do you know Do you know how much money companies like that make? My buddy was asked to be CEO of mindful I think mindful is another one of these apps on this are my Yeah $2 billion a quarter $2 billion a quarter in revenue.

How much profit though? No, oh, it's profitable. Oh, it's profitable. Yeah, okay, cuz you're just it's just people people and technology and a little bit of technology to connect them I bet what they did was they figured out that there were so many people coming out of college with psychology degrees that had no prospects for a job that just funnel them all into this app and pay him nothing and

it's worse than that. You know, this anti work thing is being pushed everywhere it may even be them doing that who the hell knows but this healing communities and all this kind of stuff oh yeah there's there's a lot going on. People are convinced they're very very troubled Yes, hey, where are we with the with everything this week? I got nothing on the list which means I'm pretty happy Oh, I'm a disaster over here. I got Yeah, well you got like real work stuff.

No, I'm I mean just on the on my prep side I've got for the first time in six in 70 episodes I do not have my notes written out beforehand and they're actually list like I usually list them out on a write it out on legal pad on legal pad and it's instead of spread out over like four different pieces of paper and another pad but because we get I got so much to talk about.

I mean, the this week we had another ABS started another purge of Spreaker stuff to match the anchor stuff and I don't even think we talked about the anchor purge last week. No we didn't and and along with that also comes the breakage of their M for a files I think which I was reading about Marco was an anchor pretty happy about that. Well, this the whole I love this though, because this this is confirmation of my theory that Spotify wants to ditch anchor as a podcast

platform. It's it's a it seems like a money suck. It's it's not. It is not I don't think that they even like it anymore. I think the getting rid of RSS feeds as the default was the first step. And each step along the way can they make one of these moves, confirms that anchor is on Anchor is just a dead man walking, I don't think it's a long term viable option for them anymore. And I think they want they would they would love to just see it disappear. They can't they really can't at

this moment. But they can make it as unattractive as possible so that they continue to draw less and less interest in the platform. Was this not one day they'll kill it? Was this not there? They're on ramp into podcasting direct into Spotify. That was not the the concept there. Well, the original concept Yes, yes that that was the concept. But but but anchor came out of social audio. And that was the previous thing was that you could like have a social network based on audio snippets.

Oh, gosh. I mean, look, do you remember that? Yeah. That's where and they all they did was add RSS feeds to that guy or podcast. That's what you have so much garbage on there like a typical on about that. A typical unlistenable podcast that got purged two weeks ago. Do you have an example? Did you bring one today?

I had so many examples and I did not bring any but like one of them was I posted some on the mastodon one of them was just like I did 15 seconds of a guy talking about poop Wait a minute background soundtrack. I have to get not so you purge a poop cast? That's I don't know Dave. I'm I'm questioning your choices here. It was like it was like 15 seconds of a Gmail. Hey, this is my first podcast and Yeah, hold on. I gotta find this man. Where do you when did you post this? I'm looking for it now.

I don't know a couple of weeks ago. Is the poop is the poop cast. Yeah, no, it was it was fantastic. But it was it was example after example, after example of that kind of stuff. Some like a 12 year old girl being like we go. Oh, this is cool. And that was it. Hold on. Listen out what I feel. I owe you go play the trailer. Alright. Just slap Okay. That's it. That's the entire podcast. But that's not the poop cast. I don't know where the poop went. There was a

bunch of poop ones. One of them had a poop emoji in the title. Yeah, why do people do that? Oh, no, I know. I'll do a poop cat. Actually, I know CRISPR shears, was one of the OG podcasters key did the poop cast back in the day. This was when we were now. So podcasting started a little bit of lore for you. And then I want to bring our guests in who's thinking what the hell that I join up for here. He's like, I'm on the wrong path. It's this thing on this was the days when we were you know, we

didn't really have studios or equipment. You know, I was building some stuff and trying to figure it all out. But I was doing sound sound seeing tours I called them I'd walk around with binaural mics and you know, just different stuff a little different from your traditional radio. I'd go flying and and people doing different types of things. And crisper sheers did the poop cast and and he would literally talk about his poop. And at one point, and this is what I knew podcasting would

take off. And this was just the best medium ever. He got on the roof of his house, made his wife put a target below on the grass. And he was awesome. I got to find that episode. It was legendary. There was just something about it. I mean, think he had to be there. Yesterday typical poop stories. But it was me. It was dry for sticking around. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no, she got a medal for that. But yeah, yeah. Everyone knew Chris. He's nuts. I'm assuming that the pot the album art for this podcast was

the Bristol stool index. No, I forget. Nobody knows what that is. You can Google it. I forgot what he had his art. Anyway, where were we? Oh, about growth. Growth. Yeah. Growth. Growth. Yeah. I was gonna say one final thing about that. Yeah, sure. So a true just kind of gets into growth, podcasting and inflation. If I were to track the past 10 years of the no agenda show, which is a value for value podcast, just like podcasting 2.0, the podcast and

the entire project. Year over year, people have given us about between 12 and 18% more year over year. And as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking over a 10 year span, it's not that people appreciated us more. It's just that the dollar devalued inflation. Yes, that is inflation. Because I'm not like living high on the hog any higher than I was last year. Right. So there, you know, I think there's your inflation, it

may actually be that Hi. My situation has changed some you know, at some points throughout 10 years, Mike, my overhead is changed. I've reduced it significantly. marrying a woman with money helps. She also which when I say that we're definitely you know, we, my wife married me for my

money. But they that when you look around the industry and all the all the index funds and all the things that are like provide a quote unquote good return, whether they're in the market or whether they're in the equities or Whatever it is, like when all of them return roughly the same percentage. That's not That's not quality of product or investment. Primarily, that's inflation. Exactly, yeah. And what should we bring our guests in so we can chat some more podcasting?

Yeah, let's let's turn the corner and stop trying to you know, talk about trying to be Horowitz and although I think our our view of the market is a lot more entertaining, yes, because we bring in poop. It's just how it's supposed to go. Today's guests in the boardroom are assessed or if you will, as someone whose work I followed before podcasting 2.0 Because I was a user of his product. And it's dynamite and he has an incredible niche of the

industry. Very happy to have him here with us. Please welcome the the founder developer of pod LP Thomas Barrasso. Thank you excited to be here. And it's uh, it's pretty funny. I can relate to the poop casts I had a connection when I was an undergrad I actually studied Viking poop. Viking poop. Okay. All right. This is something you can study. This is an icon, you get credit college credit in this course.

Yeah, I'll give you the LOL my thesis version. So basically, you know, Vikings and their their livestock settled in areas of Greenland and Iceland. And they they pooped, of course, just like all of us. And now those poop washed into water systems. And you can measure them over time through sedimentology. You can take sediment cores and lakes, and you can measure the concentration of deagle biomarkers and tell where people were when throughout history.

Wow. This is like counting the rings on a tree. We can we can count the poop rings. Exactly. So what were people eating? Sorry, what was that? I was gonna ask what people were eating. What were the Vikings eating? Oh, that that's a harder question. That's the next that's the next grad students project. Oh, okay. All right. Dave, you had a question? I'm sorry. I'm just No, I'm just gonna. Just a comment and observation, if you will. I did not. I did not come into this podcast today

expecting to hear the term FICO biomarkers. That was not on my list of all this, I thought I would hear well, this is the most diverse boardroom in the industry today. We don't. So Thomas, tell us about about your app and and how it started. And maybe just give us a little background. So everybody understands exactly what you're doing. Because it's I think it's one of the most important apps for podcasting future. That that's quite the superlative. I appreciate it.

But yeah, I'm happy to give people some context. I know, it's, as you said, it's a pretty interesting niche, at least I think so. So yeah, at the start of the pandemic, you know, like a lot of people, everything shut down, I didn't have a commute. So I just had a bunch of free time. And I, one of the one of the many items on my infinite backlog of tech ideas that I could get around to at some point was to build a podcast app for feature phones, because I wanted to use one for going on

camping trips. But you know, with car commutes and stuff, you get to drive to a campsite, I didn't want to be without something to listen to for that time. And I didn't want to deal with the hassle of like downloading a bunch of mp3 is and sideloading them before I go. So yeah, I ended up building the app for myself. But then as I went through the process, I realized the market was a lot bigger than I would have ever imagined that at the start of pandemic there was no podcast

app available for the platform, then I'm on iOS. And then yeah,

I put it together pretty quickly. Got it out there and then then kept iterating on it. But yeah, for people who aren't aware, think about like your standard old Motorola Razor flip phone, not the new one that's touchscreen and Android but like the old school with a t nine buttons that you click around basically they're they're those but you know these days, they're much more capable they've got 3g 4g, they can stream audio video that come pre installed with YouTube and Google and Facebook.

And and now you know there's penalty for listening to podcasts. Here's the irony Thomas. I was a feature phone user. Prior to the pandemic I was sick and tired of being tracked I'd gotten rid of all iPhones I never was really into Android and I got the what is it? Which Alcatel Alcatel go flip three the Alcatel go flip three from T Mobile. I liked it because it had a hotspot. We did the basic things. You know texting of course is a pain in

the ass. It does have you know, predictive text was still painful but it's okay because I was just living my life I was doing okay. And that's when I found pod LP I'm like this is so dynamite because I was I was trying to get my hands on the geo phone which is the geo phone which is big in India like that. That's even better one I was you know, just to get beyond the form factor of the flip phone. And and so I was really enjoying the pocket cast up. And then the irony is we decided during the

pandemic, oh, let's start podcasting. 2.0 I got so busy, I had to text more. And then I had to get a smartphone again. It's truly ironic. Yeah, that definitely happen. And I can totally relate to it. I've actually got two of those geophones, the one and the two, including the one that looks like a Blackberry with the keyboard. But even that I can tell you it's not. It's not the texting machine that you janky. So So janky is jank. So, um, so you're in the in the Chi store for chi,

iOS, I mean, how many downloads? How many people are using this thing? Yes. So in the last year and a half or so we're on two markets, the Chi store globally, and the geo store in India is definitely the largest market and we've got over 9 million installs around the world. In 75 countries. Oh, you're the biggest podcast app there is brother. You get? Wow, it's a large market. You know, to put it into perspective, QoS, I think has about 150 million monthly active users around the

world. Sure. And they only the you know, this is this is pretty crazy. But they're only 8% of the global feature phone market worldwide. I think people especially in Western markets forget that that's the largest device category in the world. So how long until we can do value for value on on one of these phones? I've definitely thought about you know, I keep adding some of

the podcasting 2.0 features. But until there's a Bitcoin wallet, I don't know if I'm going to be the one that's got the time to build it. It's web based. So there's probably some way that you could connect it to an existing service. Oh, man, we have we have it all set up for expertise. We can say we have it all we have everything for you. All you need to do is just connect. Right Dave? Yeah, that's it. Just just as simple as that just connect. We got it all set for you. What's your problem?

It's connect already. Look, tell me this Thomas? Or is his chi West you're like So is it your daily driver? I mean, you live on this phone. I don't anymore. To be honest, I similar similar to Adam. Basically, after launching this and having a bunch to deal with it's pretty difficult to navigate them on a regular basis. If you're going to be texting a lot you know, it's fine. If you're gonna be doing calls, you're consuming audio and stuff. But I flipped between them. I've got I don't even know

like a dozen of these powers. Now I got the new go flip for definitely bestest. So I'm, this is so cool. Because, you know, we had Who do we have on? Last week, we had the RSS calm guys on. Yeah. And they're storming the, the Latin American market. And you know, this is everyone's dicking around here, you know, waiting for Spotify to buy him. And meanwhile, this whole market is opening up. It's very, it's very exciting. So what do you think Thomas? Is India? Is that clearly the

biggest market for chi? And for me, no NGO? And that is that is that clearly like head and shoulders above the rest? Yeah, absolutely. India is definitely in a in a category on its own and in large part to do and what they've done for that industry really rapidly, you know, growing from from 2g to 4g, you know, over 100 million devices activated in like two or three years. So it's absolutely massive. And for us an important market, because it's one of the largest Anglophone markets,

right? Most podcasts are still available in English and English is still a major language in India. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is how do you handle your biggest market being a, you know, a particular country or region? Do you? Do you take that into account? When you feature podcasts within your directory? Do you say, Okay, well, you know, here's our biggest market. So I'm going to mostly put this type of content as sort of up front.

Yeah, so we vary the content on the app based on, you know, a bunch of different parameters, the language, the country, things like that. And obviously, India is one that we definitely prioritize when we're sourcing new content. You know, it being the largest market, but also, I think, a lot of people in Western audience, I think maybe there's a lack of appreciation for the diversity there, you know, with 1.3 billion people and, you know, there's probably like a dozen different regional

languages that each have almost 100 million speakers. Yeah, it's definitely like it's it's a very varied market, depending on where you are in India. And our our audience is predominantly rural and pretty diverse. So it's really interesting one to work with. Thomas, who's this we you talk of? It's the I don't know, the hypothetical. We, I mean, in a way, is it just your soil? I'm leading towards a question. You have nine you have 9 million of anything you have a

business, technically, is are you making money in any way? Are you? Do you have any plans? Are you just keeping this as a fun app? I mean, how do you look at this? Where do you stand in relation into it. Yeah, that's a good question. So most of our revenue comes from podcast sponsorships. So anybody who's interested in growing their audience globally, we can promote their content, the number one spots on our homepage, and it shows up the first thing that users see that's something that can

generate often many 1000s of lessons in a single day. So that's a definitely the, you know, the key prime spot for us, we can also promote content anywhere else in the app, we can promote it in category pages search, you know, we can promote on other parts of the homepage. So there's there's definitely ways to promote content and that that's really been how we've been able to afford to grow and scale now, is this your you have a day job? Or is this your, your full time occupation?

Yeah, I have a day jobs. I do this basically, you know, early in the morning, and in the evenings or weekends. Let your true your true podcasting. 2.0. Yeah. Not sustainable, afraid, afraid to come into poverty? What's wrong with you? Yes. Hey, that's cool, man. So I would definitely be interested in in buying a position for one or two of my podcast. So send me your rate card, I'd love to take a look at it. For sure. Yeah, that's that's when I mean that I think that's a really under,

especially with value for value. There's so many opportunities, app developers can be taking advantage of with content. People like when when the when a bill and the wolf released their their value for value album on Christmas. I mean, I just missed the, you know, I missed the promotion from Oscar Mary, you know, I missed the breeze hyping it, you know, and that all could

have been settled with value block splits. I mean, there's just so much that we could do with so I love an entrepreneurial developer who's saying, hey, you know, I can I can make some dough this way? And, and build a business? Maybe? Yeah, no, I think that's a good way of putting it. And for us, I think it's very organic, right, we get to help podcasters connect with

a new audience. And we get to help, you know, an audience of predominantly first time internet users find, you know, new engaging content, but they can learn from that they can be entertained by so it's it's definitely something that's been, you know, really, really awesome to watch as the you know, it's been over a year. Now. I want to ask you about your, your developer chops here, and when what you got going on, so what I know, in iOS is mostly

html5 environment. So how do you develop an app for that? What is your development environment look like? And know that I have no experience other than I downloaded the simulator the other day to try to get the pod LP up and running in a car simulator and failed epically to do it. It was a horrible disaster. But like, how, what is what is the language that you that you run in? What does that look like? And and then what tools do you use? Yes, that's the interesting question. Because it's, it's

definitely been a challenge. I think it's easier today. But yeah, the simulator, I wouldn't recommend if anybody's looking to get into the that that area, I would say, just get a hardware device, they're pretty affordable, you can get them in the US for, I don't know, as low as like 2030 bucks for some of the really crappy cheap ones and some of the nicer ones around 100. So yeah, I would say get a hardware device, you know, don't waste your time in a simulator. And then, honestly, it's been a

large part of self discovery. So there's documentation, of course, I find the documentation to be pretty incomplete as it often is a path and actually just sort of like, you get a device you you poke around, you learn how the API's work, you have to do a lot of testing to see which which devices have which API's where and when. And, yeah, yeah, so it's a lot of self discovery. In terms of the environment, though. It's for Penelope in particular, it's all JavaScript. It's a spelt single

page app. We built in particular and spelt because I wanted the app to be really small, because these are pretty resource constrained devices. So the entire app with all of its resources, images, JavaScript styles, etc, is just under just over 400 kilobytes. Now, I can hear Steven be screaming at the top of his lungs. Yeah, that the the svelte evangelists may rival only the rust evangelists in their ability to constantly talk about svelte that's, that's been my experience. What so what is your

so you test all on hardware? What is what's the biggest sort of pain point or constraint that you're that you deal with is a screen size. And the variance of all the different devices having different screens is a storage bandwidth lack of a keyboard and low memory like what what is your biggest obstacle that you're kind of constantly battling? Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting question to tackle.

I think there's definitely a lot of challenges some of the ones that you seem apparent, like screen sizes are actually not really all that challenging to navigate. And all the ios devices have the exact same screen size, same screen resolution. So they largely have the same hardware, which definitely helped standardize things. More than more than anything between odd castings, lack of uniformity and chi, Wess lack of uniformity. It feels like an early days Android,

there's a lot of fragmentation. And so you end up having to build a lot of checks in place to say like, if this is available, do this thing. And the same goes for podcasts, right? Like, I think I was looking at using the enclosure Length attribute as something I could display for size of podcast, there. Yeah. But even even sometimes it's set to zero. I found somewhere it's set to like one or two or three, which

it looks like a real number. But that's not you can't have I think I looked this up the mp3 header size is at least like 24 bytes or something. Welcome to Dave's nightmare. Yeah, I had an email from somebody the other day saying, Hey, I've just started using API and I've noticed a bug a lot of direct, a lot of the durations in the results are coming back to zero. And like, well, that's because they're not in the feet. Yep.

Yeah, that sounds about right. So between iOS and podcasting, it's definitely been a challenge dealing with the lack of of completeness and uniformity. So what are you what have you implemented tag wise? Have you done the alternate enclosures? Yes, we have alternate enclosures. There's, I have to go look how we got funding location person. Wow. There's just recently I think it's, we've got transcripts. So those actually show up both live, you can have them, or you can read them all.

Dynamite. Well, he searched them. You can't search them yet. Yeah. Next next iteration. Yeah, I use that every single day. Every day. I'm like, Wow, man, I think, you know, here's my process, like, oh, there's something some news item. And then first of all, go to Bing it.io, which indexes all of my show notes. I'll find Okay, I think was this episode, then I'll go to that episode, pop open the transcript and search, and then click listen. And then

I can find a clip. I can find almost anything. It's as a research tool. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That I think Search Plus chapters would be super powerful. Definitely, definitely something I've got on the backlog. But I don't think these devices come at search by default. So it's a pretty non standard interface to begin with. Right. Right. Well, that's, that's an interesting question. And so yeah, right. Well, so two questions on that on that topic.

One is, how do you manage this, this lack of a keyboard? Because everybody, I'll tell you, I've known two people so far, well, including with Adam three, I've known three people so far personally, that have tried to go daily driver with a phone like the Alcatel. And the thing that always makes them bail out, is the is how difficult it is to text. And so the keyboard lack the lack of an onscreen keyboard, or a physical keyboard

is like this deal killer for a lot of people. Do you do anything special to try to make it easier for people to do like autocomplete search terms or anything like that? Like, how do you? How do you deal with that? So we don't have autocomplete yet with search, unfortunately, it is still pretty. It's t nine, it's still a pretty manual process for actually typing stuff out. So I don't think

there's anything unique in that front. But I would say the rest of the application is actually probably pretty comparable in terms of discoverability for what you'd expect other apps, right? Scrolling is not really that different than holding the down key. It's really not all that, you know, it's basically like a TV interface. If you think about TV remote, it's

basically got the D pad navigation. And that's what these phones are, you can you can discover pretty easily, but you go to try to, you know, search for something on Netflix, and it's a pain, you got to go through this keyboard and you move in left and right. It's the same interface problem. I don't think there's anything unique that we've solved in that that front. Yeah. Do you have OPML import? Is somebody coming from another app?

No, not yet. And it was mostly because it was the first and for a long time, the only apps that we were the only other one out there. But it's definitely something that I like, like a lot of things. I've got a long list to get around the building. Yeah. And one thing, one of the things on the search thing, as far as indexing do is everything's as html5 Is everything just local storage or index DB or something like that on the on on the app is that what you're dealing with for storage?

Yeah, there's a couple of different storage classes, those are obviously available. The only caveat that I would add to that is you have to be pretty cautious and conservative about what you store on these phones, because they often have very limited storage capacity, you're rarely guaranteed to have more than a couple Meg's at most. And sometimes you don't even get that. So you have to be, you have to have the app work, regardless of whether you can store and then for downloads.

It's a whole different system. They have a Kiowa specific API for creating files. And we do that to stream podcasts in chunks and then save them locally, to, you know, an mp3 file on the device. And then you can play that back. What is the typical bandwidth in India? From from one of these phones? What kind of throughput are they getting?

Yeah, they're all 4g LTE. So they're pretty capable. They can on the low end, I think they're the minimum bar that they set is something around 10 megabits and then on the upper end, they can they can get to three digit sometimes. You know, India being such a huge market. There's got to be a way that I can sell you curry calm for way too much money. Hey, podcast, curry calm is hot. People know, the Brit, the British would buy that before the the I've had inquiries.

I've had inquiries. Yes, I got pretty far one one time. But your whole world would call I know. There's so much tied to curry calm, I would be so screwed. Yeah. It's not a good idea. You're right. Are you using the API at all? Thomas? The podcast index API? Yes, well, I actually just added it like, a couple of weeks ago, maybe over the Christmas break to the backend. It's the first time. So it's kind of funny. When I first launched pod LP, one of the things I was doing is basically following my

curiosity. I had no idea how podcasting works. And then I learned about RSS, and there's like, Oh, where do you get these feeds. And I learned about directories and indexes and stuff. And I sort of like organically discovered over time, but then you guys came out a few months after I launched, and it's like, Damn, if you guys had, if the timing got differently, I wouldn't bother building all this stuff. But in retrospect, I'm glad I did. Because there's so many unique

capabilities that we need. But you know, I don't think podcast index is doing and frankly, nobody is doing because we're the only ones who have to care about that stuff. Yeah, that that really is the best way to go is to have have your own back end. And that way, you can sort of take the raw data coming out of an API like packets, index, and then and

then like, filter it into what you need for your app. Yeah, that's definitely the what do you know the funding tag is cool that you have that in there that just I just happen to know that Pay Pal will not accept money from India? So we've had people tried to send us donations, not to the show, but to no agenda from India, and always gets rejected. Not Allowed from your country. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, they surface basically

just as links, and there is no Pay Pal out on iOS. So I don't, I don't know how many people, it's probably not the right market. If you're looking for a large volume of people funding via PayPal, I'm not known as something I should ask more developers. What do you do to track behavior? Do you track behavior of your users? How they're using it? Do you extrapolate that? Do you use that in your in your iterations?

Yeah, so we get a very basic set of analytics, in terms of tracking behavior, you know, it's it's event space, so we can track like, you know, how many subscriptions are coming in, how many listens, things like that, because it's all you know, the API that we control every time, like, we've got a standard URL that you get for every time you want to get an enclosure URL,

and it just redirects to the enclosure URL. And so that allows us to just count the number of listens that we get, and track, like, you know, what podcast is being listened to? That means that when we work with sponsors, we can tell them, you know, if you run a campaign, how many I mean, listen, how many downloads, how many subscribers do you get from your

campaign? What's the conversion look like? Now, but it is pretty basic, you know, it's not like we, and it's all anonymous, so there's no signup, there's no email, there's no phone number that you provide. So yeah, pretty basic, anonymous analytics. Yeah. What I was thinking more is, you know, I think some of these SDKs that, you know, that are out there for iOS and

Android, which I think are developed by Facebook. They put all kinds of interesting metrics in there that you can see how people are scrolling, what they're stopping on how fast they're going, does that available for iOS at all? Definitely not provided by iOS, there might be some sort of web framework that you could use. I tend to err on the side of being a little bit more mindful of privacy and security. So I don't

know that I would want to be that invasive. But uh, yeah, I think it's definitely if there's something interesting that I could glean from it and do it in a way that doesn't hurt performance and doesn't impact privacy, then I'd consider it interesting that doesn't exist at all. And by the way, I'm very happy. I think that's that's the the worst part of app development is the only way you can really understand how people

are using your app is by installing that SDK. And of course, that reports everything to Facebook. Yeah, the to limit tree all the telemetry telemetry. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. Wow, man. That's congratulations, Thomas's that's really that's, that's quite an accomplishment. But I just love that you saw that, that opportunity. And and I saw it was it's a great piece of software. I haven't used it for a bit, because I haven't used that phone. But it's really it's a it's a great app.

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. And, you know, I think it's anything I can do to help educate folks. I think people forget that, you know, just how, how important this market is, right? I mean, even in the United States, there's still millions of people using feature phones every day. And I don't think it's going away anytime soon. Some people use it by

choice. And some people, you know, that's that's their, that's their, their limitations are the capabilities, you know, my grandparents had flip phones, and that they would never graduate to a smartphone you couldn't pay them to. Yeah, since it's such a new market, is there an opportunity

here to promote? Dave, we should probably talk to Buzzsprout and RSS COMM And those guys about is there an opportunity to promote podcasting 2.0 authoring features, so that, you know, this relatively emerging new market can start out of the gate

with some modern shit. And you know, and not just kickstart that because it seems, you know, that if creators are, are aware of the app, and they must be, you know, if there's some messaging, they're like, hey, you know, you can do better you can do better than the West.

Yeah, that's a good point, something like that. I think everybody is so locked in on, you know, on the standard smartphone platforms that when you think when you imagine a podcast app, you don't imagine in your head, most average, humans are not going to imagine, at least in the US. They're not gonna imagine something that looks like a Kiowa screen. No, they're they're definitely not. But if you do, it sort of changes your perspective on things sort of like being aware

of bandwidth limitations. Yeah. Makes you see a need for something like alternate enclosure. I mean, on that sort of vein, Thomas Woody, what is the biggest thing that you can think of when it comes to the way feeds are constructed? Or delivered? That that is a problem for what you're trying to do? Like? What do you constantly run up against when you're transmogrifying a feed a podcast into something that can run in display efficiently on a small screen like that?

Yeah, I think it always comes down to size at the end of the day, whether that's the size of the RSS enclosure, like you mentioned. So having alternative enclosures is huge. You know, it makes so much sense to have adaptable, bit rich just because devices like this, and probably other devices worldwide, even your smartphone on 3g doesn't really need to be streaming the highest bitrate, it's going to cause jank and lag and buffering, it'd be better to stream a lower bitrate and

stream it smoothly. Same with podcast images, that's an exciting one. For me, the ability to have, you know, a right sized thumbnail that I don't have to generate and push myself would be really powerful. Everybody's posting 3000 by 3000 images for the latest iPhone, which is great, but that'll crash one of these phones, you can't display that. That's 1/10 the size. So those two are powerful. And then just thinking about and being mindful for like the length of titles. I noticed

this. Like I was listening to pod land recently. And it's great, but some of their titles are like like in line and scrolled off on my screen to on on pod friend I saw the same thing is about buffer overflow the stack like that. Yeah. And it wraps around to the next line goes over time lines and shit. Yeah. That's fun. Hey, we're in a burgeoning industry here. So it's all a fresh for everybody. Yeah, exactly.

What is this? What is the image art size for that? You really, I guess you scale everything down to us to a standardized size. Yeah, I scale everything down to 128 pixels. And it was pretty arbitrary. To be honest, these phones are 240 by 320. I just wanted something that was large enough that I could scale it up a little bit if I needed to in certain contexts, but most of the time, it occupies, you know, maybe a quarter of width at most. And so it's just something that was it was going to be

small enough, not too small. And usually with that, that size variable. I think I average if I look at my stats, I average like a 93% file size reduction and thumbnail images by scaling them down that way. Oh, well. Okay. Have you been to India? I have not heard plans to and then the pandemic then? Yeah, of course. And in India, you die and they burn you outside. So don't go. Yeah. What are you concerned at all about the long term viability of qx iOS as a as an operating system? I mean, I know

there's some. I mean, I know it's been around a while, but also know that, and I think this is accurate from what I remember that Google provides, like, half their funding or more. Yeah, I don't know if they're, I mean, I know Google's invested in them. So I put $12 million in or something at some point, if I remember. Yeah. I don't know what portion of their funding is attributed to companies like that? I wouldn't. I mean, I would say

I'm not. I'm not too concerned about it. And there's a couple of reasons. One is the telcos worldwide are moving towards 4g as a minimum standard, going forward, this 2g, 3g network shutdowns across the world and even here in the US. And the other reason is, they're still half of the world's population unconnected to any form of network device, whether that's a

phone or a computer, or like any internet capability. And so when people think about, you know, a lot of people talk about the future phone market as being something that's sort of transition transitionary or temporary. It might be, but it might not, I frankly, think we're talking about decades before we're anywhere near, you know, having everybody on a smartphone with electricity, and internet and all of that. So I think there's a long way to go.

The I remember now, it was $22 million that Google invested in KY iOS, and they did it to have, you know, the integrate Google Search, Google Maps, YouTube, Google Assistant, Google Assistant, on CK iOS, is quite impressive. But of course, anyone who's using in America, a feature phone is anti Google, probably doesn't really want that feature. But I remember the Google Assistant being really good. Yeah, I think, Dave, you were asking a while ago, what we're

doing about search. And that's actually one of the answers to that on Geo, they have their own version of this. And in the US, and around the world. They've got Google Assistant, you can hold down the center enter button. And I think after two or three seconds, a microphone will appear. And you can speak what you want. So I could say like, you know, podcasting 2.0. And then it'll put that into the input box, which is really powerful. Like you were saying whether or not you like Google

ads. It's a really nice feature to have. Yeah. And they make that where does that API come from? Is that something that they coyote is baked in for on Google's behalf? Or is that for $20? million? For $20? million? That's what that's right. Hello, hey, hey, Google will bake in no problem. We'll bake it into the cookie dough, but we'll make you. Yeah, it's just part of the standard framework. If you have an input element, it's just there. I think you can disable

it if you want to. So you know, if you want to get rid of that feature, and then they show a microphone icon, and that's actually a shadow element. If you talk about how that's implemented, like in the Shadow DOM, you can see that it's just like another, I don't know, gear for an SVG or something that they load over the input. It just blows my mind that on us, you'd have a feature phone

with it has all these limited hardware. And the choice you make for that platform, as the iOS is essentially like a deconstructed browser instead of something like I don't know, some sort of real time or not real time though, as some sort of embeddable Oh, s like Q and x are in was at tins, and I forgot what Samson's thing like there's a lot of these embeddable OH S is and it is funny that they, that what you get with kaios is essentially a browser. But, but if you can do it that way, it

makes so much sense. Because you just get all this sort of stuff for free, you get a really good layout with CSS, and you get all the standard browser, and you also get instant developer support because any front end developer could really kind of understand it, even if the documentation is not that great. Like, it makes so much sense. But it's still kind of blows my mind that you can cram a browser into such limited constrained hardware,

you know. Yeah, the, I mean, the history it's based on Firefox. Oh, so under the hood, it's really just running the Firefox browser. It's like you said, it's really interesting, especially when you look at the newer devices coming out. They're, they're pretty smooth. Now. You know, the early devices like that banana phone that you might have had was a little janky. But do long

Nokia 8110 Yeah, I have five of those. I ordered them all from China, and none of them worked on the US networks, but they were like 30 bucks like oh, yeah, there's the Nokia and I got the one from the UK not and even though they said oh, yes, working America very good as perfect system. He said with a racist accent. And it didn't of course, but man, I love that I had the original one the matrix phone. Oh, yeah, they're, they're collector's items at this point.

Yeah. Like, there was a man Nokia had a phone that fit in the palm of your hand back in the day. Do you remember that one? It sounds like a lot of them now, but I mean, it was it was miniature. What was the miniature Nokia? I don't remember that Nokia when I had an Ericsson that would fit in the palm of your hand. Oh, so tiny. This was even smaller. This was even this was the 3310 mini 3310. Yeah, it fits in between your thumb and your forefinger. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Yeah,

you could you could barely make a phone call. You could? It was impossible to text. Yeah, it was impossible to text. The other thing they have a mini 2021. Now what is this? This is also a mini mini? I can't tell. No, that's that's a smartphone. Yeah, it's just oh, it was good times, man. Good times. Yeah, that device looks crazy. Next, I gotta get that to run CK iOS. Right? How does that wearable? Even work? Your album mark can be? It can be 64 by 64 pixels.

Pixel pixels. Yes. That's about right. So what's your what is your device lineup look like? I mean, you said you had an array of phones? What? How do you make sure that that it looks decent across everything? If you're in do you have to? I'm assuming, I'm assuming here says you don't use the simulator. Did you have to unplug? replug? Build? Unplug? replug? No, you have to go through this pop up scenario. Yes. So I actually one of the things that I did was spend the

time to make sure that the app works. The same build works on all environment that doesn't matter whether it's a geophone doesn't matter if it's an iOS phone doesn't matter if it's chi was two, five or three Oh, so it's the same build runs everywhere. And that took a little bit of extra time to do all of that sort of detection, environment detection at runtime, but it definitely helps me because I don't have to then spend all this time thinking about managing five different

builds. And then my life literally got like these things sitting on the floor. I've got that that baby the the 8110 4g The Matrix phone and yellow. I've gotten to geophones. I've got two Alcatel flip phones. I've got some one from Europe. That was I don't know how this it was like a prototype model that was on eBay that I saw and I bought it came pre routed which was amazing. I didn't have to do anything like came with Su and salt. Yeah, and then I've got a couple others I got like

this blue phone. That's an absolute piece of trash. It sells for like 30 bucks. It it sounds awful on it because it's got I think a moto speaker on the back. And so you listen to it and everything sounds like you're listening to tinfoil. But yeah, using the whole array, it's pretty easy to test and then I don't always test it on everything because the screen size is the same for every device, every screen resolution

rather not size. So yeah, I don't really have to do too much in terms of layout conformity, but definitely some around like feature capability. I was testing the geophones, performance and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, that so what like so if the screens are the same resolution, I guess they just stretch them and sort of adapt them to a little bit different format. Yeah, every screen is 240 by 320. And then the only only

exception to that rule is the geophone. Two with the keyboard, which is just left with 320 by 240. Oh, sideways, okay, I guess Yep. Yeah, that's you essentially, guys, so what you have is like a, an old school like GarageBand pedal board with like, you know, all the all this lineup of devices on it, like, distortion pedals plan Jurina. That's funny. Yeah, I definitely you're talking about the different

classes. I have a couple other Nokia phones. And I've been thinking someday about trying to make one for one of those real time iOS is something with like, you know, like eight megabytes of RAM. How would you even make that work? And so that that would be a really interesting challenge to have to, to work through. assembly language, all assembly language. Sounds maintainable? Yes,

yes. So do you have like some kind of build pipeline that you have that where you like, push out a build and it and it adapted for each one of those different devices? You said? He said, so that you don't have to build uniques it's the same build everywhere. So it's the same compiled JavaScript, whether it's running on one phone or the other. So that's, that's pretty easy to manage. And I use roll up for

the build process, which I think is fine. I haven't invested too much time into the different tools, but I know there's at one point I use webpack. There's like a million out there now. Yeah. Webpack thanks so much. Sorry, sorry, the JavaScript guys but Webpack is a steaming pile of garbage. This developer talk is So sexy keep going. Sorry. As I see the floor to you. Yeah.

Well, no, I, I guess the the before we get to our break here and thank a couple people, is there anything else that we could do to make it more efficient for you? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think you've already done a lot, like I mentioned through alternative enclosures and images. I'll have to have to give it a little bit more thought. But I think, like, I definitely see it going in the right direction. There hasn't been, you know, I haven't

supported every tag yet, partly because of time. And partly because some of the constraints on these devices like real time streaming is definitely a whole different can of worms than, you know, just loading like a an mp3. But yeah, I think if anything, it's just the awareness of this will help podcasters understand. And then at some point, I'd like to help build tools to show people what it would look like on pot LP, or other apps so that they can get an appreciation for the places

their podcast could be. And that'll help them think about like, whether you're talking about names or descriptions or images or anything like that. I know, like pod news, for example, they were doing podcast images, and it was really cool how they adapted the logo to go from one that includes like word marks and a full detail to one that when it gets scaled down to like 300 or less is just iconography.

I love that I love I love it when they take when people take time to really care about the different sizes, and they just run it through like that. He's very good about it, because I think the RSS generator creates one thumbnail, but I probably I probably haven't really focused on as a creator of this. I haven't been educated been schooled. Exactly on I mean, I understand the concept. Let me just see, because we have it podcasting. 2.0 I think we had ones auto generated. What sizes and I

guess I can put more in and so is there is there standard? Here it is I've got what is this at some time at the genie? Yeah, exactly. The 816 pixels. That's the width. I'm not quite sure I understand all of this. So I bet I can add one here. So what sizes do you need? So I can do this the right way? How do I find out about this? So I put that in all of my. Yeah, so I put it in all of my, my systems. Yeah, I think podcasting the the 2.0 icon scales down pretty

well, just the way it is. But if you're, if you're a podcaster out there, and you've got like wordmarks, or like really detailed images, where you need to see sort of the nuance, but just scale it down to 300 by 300. And then scale down again to 128 by 128. And see what it looks like, if it looks good on your computer, then great, it's probably fine. If it's like a really, you know, high key sort of saturated icon based image,

it'll probably be fine. But if you've got like a really detailed photograph that you're using, maybe of a person or a place, just think about what that will look like when you scale it down to something like 128. And if it if it doesn't look right, then you might need to make some changes to how to get presented.

You know, what would be great is to have like some like a, I don't know, if you do stuff like this Thomas, but have like some kind of blog post or something where you sort of go over a thumbnail sketch of what the perfect set of constraints for an RSS feed would look like to be presentable on pod LPs to 9 million. Yeah, yet image art of this album are the days this resolution, using the end, use the images tag, you know, use alternate enclosure with a couple of with these specific

bit rates, like something like that would be fantastic. We ever had time because then we could, you know, push that out there and make just raise awareness that these, this is such a big market. That's a great idea. Yeah, we've got a blog at blog dot Patel p.com definitely could use more love, I don't post there very

frequently. So that's a good one to post about to show both the imagery, like you were saying, and then sort of behind the scenes what that would look like, you know, right now it's a little bit tricky, because I don't I don't think I know of a podcast host that supports images, but I don't, I also don't see why they wouldn't moving forward because at the very least if all you do is scale down the album art,

they're gonna save money on bandwidth in the future. Because if you click in and all you see is the thumbnail and you don't go to the details and load the full image. And that's, you know, like I said 93% of bandwidth on that image they're not loading and paying for. And I encourage you to highlight any of the podcasts that show

all of the tags in use on the CK iOS device. Now there's this very popular Indian podcaster His name is curry and he has a number of podcasts and you should you should consider you consider highlighting some of those shows to show off what podcasting really can do. That's the owner of curry.com. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I

heard that somewhere. I don't I don't recall. But in all seriousness, you know, I'm, I'm just somebody who probably should ask all app developers is anytime that you can highlight any podcasting 2.0 compatible show now and maybe say, Hey, look at the future of podcasting. And this is what you can do now. Hey, are you a podcaster? You can do this. Learn more here?

Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. I think I remember pinging the your Twitter handle, I think maybe Dave, you respond to that when I was when I was starting to build some of the support for different tags. I was like, hey, what podcast do I use to test this on? Like, is there one actually out there that I can use? I don't remember which one I gave you. Probably John. Jg because he he's, he's more raves. He's a bigger builder at the beginning than we were. Yeah. Yeah.

We finally got all the tags. So yeah, no, I know, you get a heart out, Thomas. And coming up in do we want to go ahead and thank some people. Yeah. Do you want to hang around while we do this? Thomas, we can we can say goodbye after that. Yeah, sounds good. Okay, this is the most fun part of the show. It is. This is a value for value

project, the whole project is value for value. So not just the podcast, but everything that you heard us talking about is all supported by people who either want to support the project or in the project. That's where most of our support comes from. And you can do that through a number of means. You can boost us through any modern podcast app at new podcast apps calm, but we also fully accept Fiat fun coupon so as long as they're good, as through our paper, which you can find a podcast

index.org on the bottom Big Red donate button. Who do we think this week Dave? Well, right out of the gate. Marco Arment. $500. Yeah. Yes, every month, man, thank you so much, Marco. Yeah. And I'm just gonna, I'm hoping I'm pretty sure he said he was working on chapters a while back soon as soon as he puts in the first podcasting 2.0 Tag support. It's all over. All over. I'm going to work. I'm going to work hard on getting him on the show. So we can we can talk about it. Oh,

that'd be cool. That would be a good get, as we say in the business. He does. I think he does shows every now and then. Yeah, very often. But yeah. Thank you, Mark. I really appreciate it. That's one of the biggest sustaining donations that we have on a monthly basis. And Mike this is all over the map the ad usually everything nice to separate a bit it's just a big pile of paper right now. Michael Gagan give us $5 And and I think yeah Michael gun he's a monthly supporter. Thank you

Michael. Charles current give us $5 That's a monthly as these things matter a lot that's a whole server. Yeah, it is yeah the $5 servers at five bucks pays for a one of our ingest mesh core one of our meant core search boxes Hey and even with Is there any inflation on that yet from Linode? No, no, they were they somehow managed to resist the inflationary pressure. Oh good. It's PPP money. Chris bars Ron's and is 2552 Nice little new. We call it numerology Palindrome,

Palindrome that's it. It says go podcasting. Indeed. Thank you, Chris, that Timothy Hudgens. My buddy, give us $25 That's a recurring monthly. Thank you, Tim. Might be sent in and I'm not sure David would find. Give us $3 That he's a monthly Thank you, David. Oh, we got a new automatic get a new monthly subscription from and I'm thinking this is the yep, this Dutch dollar a month but his name is vessel. Proust. Is it vessels The first one was the last name I spell it?

Tr o s t roast? Roast? Yes. That's a tourist. Is it is that perfect? Didn't I nail Yeah, you Nailed it. Nailed it. You're Dutchman now. Okay, he's from from the Netherlands. Thank you vessel Yeah. Let's see Oh, survive on the mastodon survived lavosh He gave us $5 That's a monthly donation. He's that they're still working on their podcast system there. Now. What are they working on? This I had a meeting with with his house and he was coming is it. You had a meeting and you didn't invite me? No,

no, it's just like two months. Yeah. Soon thing. I'm not I'm not allowed to have meetings. Meetings without me know Let's see Keith Gibson, big supporter if for a long time give us $50 As a $50 Thank you, Keith. Dwayne Goldy long timer $8 $8 a month. Thank you for joining Paul Erskine. $11.14 That's another monthly Thank you. Interesting number. Thank you. Oh, yeah, he missed it it added up at the end of the year you total them all up and it adds up to something.

Oh, he's got an annual donation got it. Cool. Yeah. Oh, here we go. Benjamin Bellamy. Our buddy yes off. 50 gives $50 Oh, thanks. says thank you for your unwavering dedication to keep podcasting open. Happy podcasting. 2.0 A year ago podcasting Viva la boos. Yes. And now as the French say, it is timeful loose. It must hurt a Frenchman to do the accentuated French accent as a gag It must hurt him it's really appreciated Benjamin Thank you.

I think he gets loads of amusement from it probably yes yes yeah, the French are so much smarter than we are this you just above it. Oh yes, I make them laugh. Little American podcast people's plebes flips the podcast plebs. Okay, we've got a new we guess those are papers we get some booster grams that we get Yeah, we've also got a new new jingle Oh hello. from Cali bear

I seem to I seem to hear him both post from last week. Love it nice cows loading this up man it's like a Training link to that is in the show notes it's the boost bait link if you're looking for it don't you want to do this tom? Thomas Don't you want to get on get in on the on the boosting link and sets booster gram train it's awesome Thomas's like left the room No, yeah. Like I said I it's a different world for me. I don't I don't know how can I accept crypto payment on iOS?

We give we don't understand any of the details we just give you a rational pressure to try to make you do thing that's just how it works around you. We can show you we can show you how to do that with wallets and everything when when you're ready for Thomas. Yeah, yeah. A breeze anonymous 6969 SAS showed show donation from last week. Nice and the message is simply boost boosts what we got here up drips got 10,000 SATs go podcasting.

Yeah thank you Dr. Scott man the Bruce Wayne is podcasting 2.0 He's like can I do more can I like you know change your tires I'll do anything I want to do more for podcasting 2.0 dread you are going above and beyond brother above and beyond. He's the the the chapter factory una chapter good names a good name chapter factory and even blueberry gave us the fountain gave us a 12 by 12,121 says One to One to One. Thank you Palindrome one boost to boost red boost blue boost yeah

as a lyricist we get some new names in here by the way too. We got see through fountain you got a 3330 sets from somebody named horn loaded no one load has been around I think so no agenda person maybe okay my rep was dragged was pushing boosting on no agenda social pretty hard so I think he's he's pushing people the Rogan appearance may start to kick in a little bit this stuff there it comes in waves go slow yeah dread doing doing more even more work? Go podcasting is what

Hornet is Yeah. Here we go. Mere Mortals podcast. This is from our buddy Kyron 4321 SAS 4321 through fountain A says, Does does this hinted at company as the ability to onboard people worldwide. I would love to give specific instructions to listeners and what needs to change based on location. always hearing about cool things until the end sentence is except if you live in X. I know this pain all too well where we're the

world's taint. Australia, the world's team I like, and I'll be at extremely large and testerone. Did you put that in his note? Yes, yes. Australia is the origin testerone filled tank of the world. Hey, this is a tight mate. So we actually had a meeting with with said company, and which was interesting. We we learned a lot about their business. And where we're at right now is, indeed they would like to do it worldwide. I don't know if they

actually have that mechanism. It seemed like they don't have it yet. But that that is the intent. And we discussed that specifically. Yeah. And there seemed like part of it and they work in the other and part of it might not. Yeah, well, the one part that may actually work is that you know, what they want to do is very simple. A sign up bonus, you sign up to buy bitcoin through them, they give you $5 A free insets right into your podcast wallet. That's the idea.

So we'll have to talk about the tank territories. Territories these guys seem like they want to move fast. So we're, we'll we'll keep you posted. I'm sure hope so. But I understand that and I know it's one of Cleveland's biggest complaints and this rightly so. But this is a There you go this is the this is this is a problem that Bitcoin solves everybody can use Bitcoin all over the world right now today sending value to any

podcast or anywhere in the world. And the problem the problem here is not the Bitcoin The problem here is the traditional banking and finance industry. Yes, so but you can buy bitcoin somewhere in Australia, I presume? Yes. hardhat give us 22 To 22 22,222 SATs road ducks oh yes is happy content chair Pharaoh gave us 3333 sets through fountain he says All Aboard trains good planes bad. Oh shoot man. Oh, you didn't have it loaded up? No. How do I know that? Oh, yeah, they're gonna hear me go.

Trains planes anonymous threw breeze gave us a row of ducks. 2222 And he says great new row of ducks. Boost jingle Yeah, we'd like it a lot. Brian of London through curio caster said he gets a 19,400 ad sets. He says add up my boost amount for that mention. Adam, thank you. I would honestly say that your words about pod paying are the best thing I've ever been told about anything I've ever built on a computer even beyond my PhD. It means a huge amount to me.

Wow, a heartfelt note. Well, and it just so happens. I do have diplomas that I hand out for for these occasions so that not only was it a better feeling than your PhD, I will top it with a very nice certificate. But it's but I meant it. Brian and I appreciate you using the booster Graham to contribute content to the show. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you Brian and Alex for all yes work you're putting into Park pod paying it's it's killer using pod ping in any way. Thomas.

I was actually just exploring that this past week to figure out the best way to connect it to our systems. Okay, so I definitely plan to in the near future. Hit me up with any thing you need. I mean, it's all very simplistic from the consumption and so I can I can give you code or whatever, you know, whatever you need for to make that happen. It's very simple. John, John's wbrt gave us 49 For 90 49,490 sets. Wow fountain, he says putts ah making up for last

week. Nice John's you're you're redeemed. That's a good player he redeemed yes that's that's a nice dollar amount that's good Fiat fun stuff. Brian mozzie give us 2222 Road ducks through fountain he says boost I got to record you saying that sometime because that's that's getting pretty good. I'm working on it. Sir bargy gave us 1500 sets and he says go podcasting. He said he gets technically it could be SEO sir

bargy again. 1500 sets go podcasting. Sir Bill 2222 Road ducks through fountain he says couldn't stop laughing at the duck like it too. Yeah, you're a psychic my friend. Signs of new growth. Interesting. I guess that's I think that's the name of part of a podcast. Give us a 33,333 says Holy cow. Very nice. Thank you. In the messages, signs of new sets sounds a new growth. I'm pretty sure that's a podcast. Yeah, it sounds like it sounds right. Yeah.

Okay. Our buddy cast Pelland 3300 sets through fountain and he says, haha, boost boost chelator is that Dutch booster later? No boost you later alligator. Thanks for the work Sunday. I need to explain my nickname, wink. I would love to hear the news. Oh, boy. I want to hear that story. Okay. Adam is less enthusiastic. Yeah. Well, you know that the Dutch this just a little bit of

history. When Napoleon conquered the Netherlands at the time, they made everybody register with the government with you know, with with this new tyrannical government and the Dutch very, very typical. They said, Oh, okay. Yeah, sure. We'll register What's your name? My name is John's son. Okay. Yeah. And so you have the weirdest names you know, there's a lot of baker's What's your name? Baker? You know, cuz the guy was a baker. What's your name? Butcher. Okay, John

Butcher. And so this to this day, there are people with the weirdest names like you know, butts scratcher and stuff. But it's really, because you know, of course, some of these people got drunk like Vinay Yeah, but scratch your feet buds. Gotcha. Yeah. What's your name? Seymour. And advocate Ben Dover. Yeah, yeah, it'd be that became, you know, the the record. They wrote it down, and everyone stuck with it. So whenever there's a Dutch an explanation of a Dutch name,

I kind of hold on to my my hat. And you never know what's coming. It's not my grandmother. She never knew how old she was or any of her relatives where she had to go look in the everybody's to write it down in the Bible in the front pages of the Bible. I don't know if there's any other country that did this. But like, the first maybe 10 pages of all the family Bibles in the US had a genealogy section and you would write down your mom, your dad, your brothers, your sisters and when

they were born. I don't know why it was that way. But like that's it had room for that. And you put in the sheet that you'd go look it up. You know, I was like, I don't know. I don't remember. She lost the Bible. Yeah, yeah. See this interested? Fountain? This is from somebody gave us one set. Thanks. Well it's literally a set streamer. Okay. What app lets this happen? Fountain the fountain stops out immediately. Oscar shut this down. But he did have a nice note. It says thanks

for having Hasma cook on the show. Yeah, well, you're welcome. You know, there's your Bitcoin community your philanthropic Bitcoin community everybody. Thanks for the SAT. Scott gave us 10,420 sets to fountain nicaise First, thanks to everyone. Go podcasting. 2.0 Yeah, I guess. Around 2010 i created a Cannabis News and cannabis entrepreneur podcast and tried starting a cannabis podcast network called cannabis be Podcast Network pollinating minds. It might be time to

resurrect the website and gear it all around podcasting. 2.0 I agree. Yeah, completely ma'am. I have been a bit of a lot of people out there would support it. Because it's very hard to do ads and stuff. It's hard to even bank if you if you're selling weed or promoting it or talking about it. It's very difficult. Is Jamaica a big market for KY iOS phones there? Thomas? Check. I think so. Alright, they got Chinese crap in there. I think it's all they

got Huawei. Like the island? Yes. You're in Jamaica. China took over Jamaica. i Okay. Well, join the club. CO McCormick gave us 333 sets the fountain he says I'm working on my shit. Okay. All right. Good luck with that cool. See? Oh, lemon creations. Our buddy Andy Lehmann gave us 222 sets. Through fountain he says Dave Thanks for making hella pad. The now almost unbroken Hello Pat. I will talk about that later. I love hearing the pew pew as

abuse as a boost comes in abuse is what I said abuse. I love hearing the pew pew as it Boost comes in. If you have not checked out my podcast dudes and dads podcast, go to dudes and dads podcast.com or any new podcast app. Thank you for all you do with podcast index. Well you're welcome Andy. I think that's it we got a couple more. Almost almost here through it again. Nomad Joe gave us 500 sets. He says a boosting to hear the cowbell. cowbell cowbell.

I haven't had I haven't had a cowbell in the studio for 567 years. I don't have account. Oh man. I'm sorry. How you doing? I got that for you. That's it. That's pretty close. And oh, wait, somebody else came in. This looks like the same person that gave us one set. But he gave us 2112 says this time? Oh yes, sir. Pilgrim. I wonder if that's Harry pilgrim says. Hey, Dave, help Adam. The correct way to pronounce this boost is a 2112. I'll give him a break on Rush since he grew up in Holland.

Yes, a rush boost. I know. I recognize the rush boosts Don't just stand there. Boost. Comic Strip blogger rounding it out. Give us 10,033 says through pod friend nice. He says greetings to Dave Jones into the end to hubby if Tina the keeper. You're welcome to live. So you're now known as the husband of Tina. Oh, yeah, I know. She's taken over. She's She's now a podcast star. She's got the bug. She's like making lists of topics and emailing

with people and making new album art. I know I've unleashed a beast. All the nine year olds in my West. My wife's name is Melissa all the nine year olds in her class in her classroom. Call me Mr. Melissa. Ooh, nice. Melissa, Mr. Willis has a cool truck. Greetings, Dave Jones in the hubby of Tina the keeper. You're welcome to listen to our podcast about artificial intelligence and titled AI cooking. Led by former BBC actor Gregory William

Forsythe foreman, from Kent in old England. Just search in any podcast app for AI cooking to find this podcast yo, yo, and thank you to all of our boosters and our our other contributors, our monthly especially thank you all so much for supporting podcasting 2.0. It's a slow grind, but the growth is really, if you when in doubt, zoom out. It's been spectacular what we've done so far. And from zero to a year and a half in it had the ability to do this and have this feedback

loop. And podcasting is extremely exciting. Here's your cue to boost. You know you want to Thomas, you got time for one more question or you got a bell? Yeah, I got done. I just want to ask you about live I finally got the live tags situated is done. It's baked? I'm not touching it anymore. I'm done. So do Do you have? Is there any way you think you could do like a live streaming in in a KY iOS phone? Or do you think it's just too limited?

Live streaming is definitely possible. I haven't looked into what it what it looks like under the hood? Is it HTTP Live Streaming? HLS? Or is it something else? Well, it'll say the spec calls for highly, you know, it, here's, here's the way the spec reads, it's like live item looks just like the regular item with just a couple of added properties. And that's a start time and end time and a status attribute this sit on the live item element itself. And then

everything else inside of the live item. tag element, all the children of it are the same identical stuff that you would find in a regular podcast item tag. And so then, but the only the wording around it is we really want you to have like all three of these tags and enclosure as give me an alternate enclosure, a regular enclosure with and then a fallback Content link URL that somebody can link out if if the

app just cannot support the stream at all. So the dad and then there's also wording in there that suggests a you know, even though alternate enclosure can handle lots and lots of different various codecs and transport protocols, you really kind of want to start with supporting the basics of just an mp3 stream and an mp4 stream if it's video to try to like maximize compatibility across platforms. So that's that's sort of the rundown real quick.

Yeah, I would say I can definitely take a look. I'll poke around and find some folks that are supporting and see if I can test it out just on one of my devices, but I don't see if it's, if it's MPEG streaming out why it wouldn't work? It would be so odd to have live streaming on these devices. That would be so cool, man. Can you trigger an alert?

Oh, yeah, we can trigger a push notification. So if you have like a subscription and the subscription had a new live item coming up something that was like, hey, there's a you know, something streaming right now. Yeah, this hot new Bollywood podcaster. Hurry. Curry is live. Yes, that's, that's how it's gonna hook into one of the ways that pod ping is gonna come into this is that pod pod thing. The next version of it that they're about to release is gonna have

another thing to note. Yeah, live notifications. So when a podcast is live item, when it flips when it goes on air, so to speak, a special pod paying will go out saying it's now broadcasting. So that's that's the way you would get useful to like, pass through that, that notification down to the to the device. That'd be perfect. Yeah, right now we batch notification just as a cost saving measure. So they're not real time. But if there was a way to tap into that, that would be pretty cool.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll definitely work on the will probably will pilot it with this, for sure. And then we there's a couple of other feeds. And no, sir Spencer's working on. Does there'll be plenty of to test against with within the next short period of time, I think. Yeah, just combine that with the real time transcript, right. We've got the support for was it the SRT and the web VTT formats. It's pretty cool. You could have it, like live streaming and live captions.

That would be awesome. How do I how do I make live captions? Where do I get that from? I don't know. That's where you haven't built question. This is what I'm still on my to do list. Once again, another board meeting where this always happens in every board on every board I've ever been on every board meeting. There's always one or two items that just never get addressed. And Ryan Heiss, his transcript service. I know I'm ignoring him because I don't

understand what's going on. I need help understanding because this, I know the guy has something I think the hits. I'm telling you. This guy has something I can't figure it out. So James Quinlan, talk to Ryan highs, please. Well, Chris Curtin is good at this stuff. He's good at the transcripts. I had so much notes as so many notes on here and we we spent the whole time talking about solar panels and I know what is wrong with those water batteries. I'm so I'm ashamed now.

Alright, next week, we will we will get into oil, we'll get deep into tech promise. Thomas Barrasso is the developer of pod LP is storming the the emerging markets I'm very excited for you very excited for podcasting and, and really love that you're doing this man. Appreciate you coming into the board today. Thank you, I appreciate you having me and all the work that

you guys are doing. Super helpful, like I mentioned, especially for a platform like us to be able to piggyback and maybe get some tags that'll help us out in the future. Thanks if you ever need anything at all, any help at all piping, any of that jazz just just hit me up or metro fingertip. I appreciate it. Thank you says that to all the girls. that's it everybody. Join us again next week for another board meeting of podcasting. 2.0 see you that.

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