Episode 240: Open Source = People!

Podcasting 2.0 for October 31st, 2025, episode 240. Open source is people. Hey everybody, it's that spooky time of year which means time for another board meeting. That's all we really do here. It's time to talk about podcasting. Everything that's been going on in our world and yours and in the world of podcasting. We are the board meeting. In fact, this board meeting is the only board room that doesn't require age verification.

I'm Adam Curry, here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the only man who can never be included in a reduction in force. Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones. I am the riff, I am the reduction, I am force reduction. That is the definition of Dave, force reduction. Force reduction, yes. No, we cannot riff you. You are un-riffable. Un-riffable? You are un-riffable, yes. We can get rid of everybody, but we can't get rid of you.

Un-riffable, we say, un-riffable. Everybody's expendable. I'm not so sure about that. I'm not saying it won't hurt. It may hurt bad. It may sting. But everybody's expendable. It may sting a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah, brother, I was so blown away. Why? Because all of a sudden I get a message and you've sent clips. It's been a long time. I don't think you've sent clips in, well, I don't think we've had clips in a long, long time. Weeks, weeks, I'll tell you.

Yeah, so do you want to get to your clips or what do you want to do first? I'm always excited. You got clips, clips, clips, and they're biblical. Wait, did I send you the right clips? No, you sent me Solomon one through four, so I'm like, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. Let's see, I need to actually get the clips on this machine. I sent them from a different machine. Where are they? Because it would be bad if I can't even tell what my clips are. Well, I'm going to think this is John Solomon, maybe.

I'm just guessing. Negatory. It's not John Solomon. It gets more interesting by the moment, everybody. This is David Solomon. Pew! Wow, okay. Good timing. This is David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. Oh, okay, a douchebag, basically. Yeah, yeah. So, apologies that this is a little bit maybe out of order, because I'm going to have to, like, the way I number these really didn't, end up being the correct order. Like, the best order, the most ideal order. Yeah, no problem.

You just tell me what number you want. I mean, I'm a full-service production guy here. Well, so I get this Bloomberg News newsletter. Yeah. I don't know how I got on this thing. I mean, like, you just, you know. The question is, how do you get off of it? That's the question. Yeah, you sniff in the right, when you're turned in the right direction out on the street one day, and suddenly you're on the Bloomberg newsletter email list. I got you.

And this thing is hilarious most of the time, because it's like, you know, it's this eloquent sort of synthesis of economic language, TDS, and just complete hogwash. Like, it's funny. It makes it funny to read. Like, I enjoy reading it just to see what they're going to say. But, so the most recent thing is they blamed the nearly $40 trillion in U.S. debt on the one big, beautiful bill. Yes, yeah. Which happened like, you know, three months ago.

But hold on, hold on, Dave. We're going to grow ourselves out of it. Don't you know that by now? Stable coin and GDP. We're going to grow ourselves out of it. That's the plan. Nevermind the 40 years of debt-fueled expansion. Don't look at that. Oh, I won't. No. Through every administration, you know, left, right, and center. Don't look at that. Just look at the most recent thing that just passed your newsfeed. That's the knowledge.

Yes. But, so, this guy, David Solomon, David Dave, from CEO of Goldman Sachs. Well, it's important to remember, Goldman Sachs is, Goldman Sachs, along with J.P. Morgan, and I think about three other banks. Citibank, somebody else is in that mix. I can't remember. There's just a handful. This is the good old Boeing network. J.P. Morgan, J.P. Morgan Chase, Citibank, Bank of America, Goldman, and then you get into, yeah. I don't think, what I'm talking about is these guys are primary money dealers.

Oh, oh. Which is a, yeah. Yes. And then you have a designation. Yeah, the guys who got wiped out in 9-11. Yes, these are. Those guys. These are, so, yeah, a primary dealer in FedSpeak is somebody who can print money. It's a bank, it's a regular bank, but they can print money. Yes. They can essentially, they can issue treasuries. They can do open market operations on their own without having to go through the Fed.

And so, that's what, it's important to remember that Goldman is one of the few christened money dealers in the U.S. system. And so, when he talks, I mean, he's talking as somebody who has the ability to do these things. So, he's being asked about, he's being asked about the U.S. debt when he's talking about, this is Solomon One, the growth question. Okay. Well, in New York, they wouldn't sell, they wouldn't be buying treasury securities.

It was such a big problem because it wouldn't be a good investment. And then the people in New York say, well, the people in Washington must know what they're doing. If they're borrowing this money, they must know how to figure out how to pay it. So, what is the story? Why is the business community not worried about, as a general rule, they don't seem to be as worried about the 38 trillion as I would have thought they would be?

Well, I speak to a lot of people in the business community, a lot of people in the financial community, and I think people are worried about the level of debt. And the fact that we've reached a point, and by the way, this is true in the United States, but it's true in every developed economy where kind of fiscal stimulus and an aggressive fiscal play is really just kind of embedded in the way these democratic economies are operating. And it's accelerated meaningfully in the last five years.

I think the pandemic played an accelerating role and it doesn't seem like we have an ability to pull it back. And so, we've taken the debt in the last 15 plus years, kind of since the financial crisis, from 7 trillion to 38 trillion, and just refinancing it for the rest of the decade. What's got to be refinanced, if you look at current rates, is going to grow it into the low 40s, for sure. And we're growing our spending at a reasonable rate still.

And so, this is an issue we have to wrestle with. Now, the path out really isn't a revenue path out, the path out is a growth path. And if you think about it, the difference, trend growth is 2%. The difference between compounding growth at 3% and 2% is monstrous in terms of dealing with this issue. So, there's a lot of discussion about running a real growth play. I think we have some things that are going on that give us a better opportunity to have a higher growth trajectory, particularly.

So, actually, there's 25 money guys. It does include Bank of America, Cantor Fitzgerald, that's who I was thinking of, Deutsche, Goldman, HSBC, JPMorgan, Morgan, et cetera. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think there's an FRBNY designation that gives you the ability to do actual direct open market operations. I think those guys can do, they can essentially print money, print dollars, but I don't think they can issue treasuries, which is what Goldman and them can do.

I think that's a very select few. But I do know that Cantor Fitzgerald can do that, and that's kind of controversial because our Commerce Secretary is the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald. Of course he is. Minor point, minor point, minor point. What was interesting there towards the end, there's a couple things about this that piqued my interest.

Number one, there towards the end, he said, there's a lot of, I forgot the exact language he used, but he said, there's a lot of talk about doing a growth play. Yes, that's- Can you play the very end of that? Oh, yeah. Again. Sure, hold on a second. Yeah. I don't know where it starts, but like - It's around here. At a reasonable rate still, and so this is an issue we have to wrestle with. Now, the path out really isn't a revenue path out, the path out is a growth path.

And if you think about it, the difference, trend growth is 2%. The difference between compounding growth at 3%

and 2% is monstrous in terms of dealing with this issue. So there's a lot of discussion about running a real growth play. I think we have some things that are going on. He says there's a lot of discussion about running a real growth play. Yes. That sounds like, almost like- Football? 42, grow! That sounds almost like he's having like sort of side discussions. This sounds like a private discussion that he's had with other people that come, that kind of leaked into his answer to this thing.

This is the way he works. It's almost like it's not, because have you heard of anybody- Yes, actually I have heard about this. Yes. And I heard about this on This Week in Bitcoin. Oh, okay. A few weeks back, actually. And Chris was talking about this. And so I think our growth rate is 3.2, which is indeed monstrous compared to two. And part of that is tariffs coming in. Part of it is reduction in spending and some other magic.

But that was always the idea was, because you go from two to three, that's huge. That is big, compounded. So how, he's saying, he said there's a lot of ways, there's ways we can do that. And this is a podcast about podcasting. We're getting there. I'm weaving, I'm doing the weaving. Take it easy, CBrooklyn1112, simmer down, simmer down. Yeah, this is not DHM plug. So he's like, how are we going to do? We've got ways of generating this growth. So Solomon too, and he gives the answer.

Do you want to take a crack at what you think it is? What's the question again? How are we going to do this? How are we going to get that two to three? How are we going to go from two to 3% growth so that we can get ourselves out of the bad debt trap? Somehow it's going to come down to printing even more money, I think. Let him talk. You know, technology, AI, getting embedded into the enterprise, the productivity opportunity from that. Oh, we're screwed. AI. Productivity from AI.

Well, yeah, of course. And it actually, there's something to be said for that for as long as you can keep it running, because what we're doing is we're soaking up all the money into this circular AI economy where just everything is being sent to the next guy and eventually comes back to NVIDIA. And then it goes out again. It goes even up. I mean, even that new humanoid robot thing that everyone was looking at. Oh yeah.

Neo, Neo, the stupid robot with an anonymous Indian controlling it from Bangladesh. It's Amazon, walk in, grab your grocery, 2 .0. $129 million, both rounds led by open AI. I mean, come on. It's like the money is just circulating. Yeah, sure. So, okay. Well, that's very risky. And somehow every time it hops from around the circle, from one company to the next, everybody gets to record the prior, everybody gets to record this as an investment, as an asset and not a liability.

You know, that's the beauty of it. Yeah, of course. Magical accounting. Yeah, that's fantastic. But so the answer is AI. That's, what's going to give us the productivity in order to grow out of this, grow out of the problem. Wow. And so, but some also happened to be listening to at the same time, that's why all this stuff sort of piqued my interest at the same time. So I happened to be listening to an old talk by Milton Friedman from 1978, a speech he gave. And now I'm not a Milton Friedman fan.

I mean, the Chicago School of Economics, I think is just kind of like mid, but at the same, you know, I'm more, I would probably be more of an Austrian, but his theory of, or his explanations of, that inflation only comes, inflation is anywhere and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. That is just accepted gospel now. I mean, it's a provable fact that that is the case. So regardless of his other, you know, of his other aspects of his economics, that aspect is legitimate.

And he happened to be talking, he gave a talk on inflation and he mentioned this issue of productivity and growing your way out of an inflationary trap in Milton Friedman one. The second argument that will be made, you've left out of this picture productivity. In those charts, what was it that I connected with prices? It was not simply the quantity of money. It was a quantity of money per unit of output. And it's true. Anything that increases output will tend to hold down prices.

And so it's very common for people to say, well, the real source of inflation is that our productivity has not been increasing as much as it should. Or to say that the real cure for inflation is to increase productivity. Now, productivity is an enormously important phenomenon from the point of view of our standard of life, of how well we live. There's nothing that's more important. If we can get a rate of real growth of 3% instead of 2%, that will make a great difference over a period of time.

And I don't doubt that one of our national problems is a fall off in the growth and productivity. But from the point of view of inflation, it's the wrong order of magnitude. It would be a tremendous achievement to raise the average rate of growth of real output in this country from 3% a year to 4% a year. That would be a 33 1⁄3% increase. It would be a dramatic change. But it would reduce the rate of inflation by one percentage point a year.

And from that point of view, the possible variations in the quantity of money are much greater than the variations in output and productivity. So from the point of view of inflation, productivity is very much of a bid actor on the stage. The lead, the hero or the villain, as you wish it, is not productivity, but what happens to the quantity of money. Oh, he kind of screwed me at the end. Why? Well, he says it's not productivity, but it's the quantity of money.

Right. Because I was gonna say that when it comes to productivity, first of all, restarting manufacturing in America, even if it's just rare earth, any kind of manufacturing that increases our own productivity. On the other hand, I'll say that even though they're losing money on me, that my vibe coding has indeed increased the output of productivity because I only have one Dave Jones, he's working on something else.

I am being productive in ways I couldn't have been before regardless of whether it's costing Elon Musk way more than I'm paying him, which is currently nothing. Right. But for every one Adam Curry, there's 14 ,000 developers laid off at Amazon. Well, but they can all get a sandwich here at my house. See, it's like there's- And they weren't developers, they were supposed to be administrative. Well, there's a lot of engineers getting laid off.

This seems to be hitting Twitch particularly hard and a lot of developers, a lot of engineers. This is, the Amazon's, this is particularly like the Amazon Twitch and game development side seems to be drastically affected by this latest thing. And this, and I don't know if you saw YouTube, YouTube, their announcement that they were going to be laying off. They're doing, well, actually they're, let me quote it accurately, they're doing buyouts. Yes. And a reorg.

And so they're wanting voluntary buyouts. And so this is what, and the letter that YouTube CEO put out, I don't know if we've seen numbers like this before from them. He mentioned something in there. And clearly these things don't get, I mean, these things are leaked. They're not, you know, please, they don't get out without, they're carefully worded so that they know they're going to get out.

But the CEO of YouTube says, you know, in this letter, he says, he starts talking about all their awesomeness. And then he says, we've built a subscription engine with over 125 million monthly paid subscriptions and 8 million YouTube TV subscribers. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not, I didn't, I wasn't sure if we've ever seen that 125 million subscriber number for YouTube. I mean, it sounds like, I think I've heard number, maybe not. Okay. Yeah, somebody will tell me if I'm wrong.

Hold on a second, 125 million times, what is it? It's like 14 bucks a month. 14. Yeah, so about. That is. Be generous and say 2 billion a month in revenue. Well, 1.75. Yeah, but there's family memberships in there too and stuff that are a little bit more. So let's, yeah, you could probably round it up to two. 2 billion and then eight, how many YouTube TV? YouTube TV is 8 million. 8 million and that's time, but there's a huge cost associated with that.

Yeah, that's probably very low margin, I would imagine. Yeah, in fact, they just threw off ESPN and all Disney stations because they couldn't get to an agreement on the carriage fee. Oh really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so that's 24 billion a year in revenue from subscribers. You know. Yeah. Let's say that, let's say, and so Spotify, we know those numbers, 88% of their total revenue comes from subscribers, only 12%, or it's actually less than 12%, it's like 11 and a half percent.

It comes from advertising. It comes from advertising. So let's just say that maybe that's similar at YouTube. That means they're doing 300 million in ad revenue a month. That's nothing. On the grand scale, no. At their scale, at their size, that's very little. And so, I mean, I think if you sort of back your way into these numbers, that really makes you question, you know, whether they're profitable, number one. And- As a separate business unit, you mean? Yes, as a standalone unit, yeah.

And, you know, that's all revenue. That's not income. I mean, you know, that's- That's not profit. That's not profit. Yeah, that's not profit. So, you know, YouTube doing a reorganization and asking for buyouts and that kind of thing, that's, this is all, you know, this is all pointing to, they're going to be using AI as the excuse, the enhanced productivity of AI. Yeah, that's clear.

Yeah, across the board for all of these things, that's what you're going to hear that time after, that's what's going to be said for everything. But, you know, really the issue is a overall slowdown in government spending. Yes. Government spending is decaying. Decelerating. Is decelerating, and that is the only, that deflation coming from government spending, that deflation is starting to hit everybody.

Because the only way you keep this whole machine running is by staying in front of inflation by outprinting it. And that's, you know, and David Solomon says as much in number three about who pays. Number three. Okay. But if we continue on the current course and we don't take the growth level up, we will, there will be a reckoning in this. And the bottom line is we have to find people, you know, to buy and finance our debt.

And, you know, ultimately it's not going to be other people around the world. If it keeps growing, it's going to turn to us. But what happened to stable coin? Well, he talks about that, he talks about that too. Play number four. I think you have to start, David, with a point of view that the dollar and the relationship between currencies fluctuate.

And, you know, the dollar's been on a pretty good run over a long period of time, and it's certainly given back this year, given some of the policy actions, some of the gains. But fundamentally, the dollar is the reserve currency of the world. I don't see anything at the moment that threatens that.

And even when we were talking about, you know, debt and, you know, our fiscal debt, when you get around the world and you look at all the capital flows around the world, global allocators, 50% of their capital is coming into the US. They might be hedging the dollar a little bit differently now than they might've been for the last few years, but I think it's more at the margin. So I think it's something to watch, but I'm not concerned that there's some fundamental shift.

And actually, when you think about digitization and tokenization and access to the dollar, you know, over time, it's actually allowing easier access to the dollar around the world, which in the long run is a benefit for the dollar and the dollar's position in the world. Okay, tokenization, that's the stable coin gambit, yeah. 50% of the investment around the world is in, you know- Dollars. 50-something is in dollars. And so how do we get, we need to get that to be 80%, 90%, 100%.

So you tokenize, yeah. Do you need a digital dollar to go out and capture you? So the way you get out of this debt trap or stay ahead of it is you grow the dollar. It's everything you gotta grow. You gotta grow, you gotta grow. That's the only way out of this. Bigger, bigger, bigger. More, more. Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, this is coming home Spotify for creators. I got an email from them saying that they were going to- Start charging? No, no, no, no. I did not, no, not that email.

I got an email saying that they were gonna kill my account if I didn't go out there and do some activity on it. Oh. Now, this is the first- Because there's an actual like three bytes that are being used? What is that? I've had an anchor account as just a test, you know, to keep in the background forever. I mean, for a long time. Sure, sure. And this is the first time I've ever gotten an email saying that I had to go be active on my account in order to- Keep it. To keep it. Mm-hmm.

I mean, you're just seeing- So they just wanna shut machines down. Yeah, and I'm seeing it in the software industry as a whole in line of business apps. I'm seeing, you know, Microsoft went up on their volume licensing. Now, this is a four, Microsoft's a $4 trillion company. They make hundreds of billions of dollars in profit every year. They went up across the board on their volume licensing costs 20% this past year.

This is what businesses pay for things like Windows licenses, Office 365, that kind of thing. And- 20%. And guess what? There's no guarantee it stays up. See Azure this week. Right, right. And they're laying off people consistently. Yeah. You know, because AI.

But so there's, what I'm saying is there is a reckoning that is happening in slow motion right in front of us with, I think what this administration has done and that is inadvertently, I think, expose all the weak points that everyone thought were there, but were not, didn't really know how to spot because global economics is so difficult to understand. It's such an octopus.

But I think that just slow, if you just slow, take your foot off the gas just a hair, all of a sudden, all the cracks and all the rot starts to show. And what is gonna, it is having a ripple effect across all of these industries. Podcasting is tied in with all of these. Podcast advertising and podcast hosting. Yes, yes. And so, I mean, this is gonna be rough.

I mean, I think, you know, once these kinds of things start, it's gonna be, it could be pretty nasty over the next few months, a few years. Oh, well, I have my own indicator because I've been doing it for 18 years and I can see that people are slower to part with their money in value for value. I just see it.

And which, by the way, is one of the most fantastic things about value for value because yes, it fluctuates and yes, it goes down, but it's not like people are on mass canceling subscriptions. When they still feel like they get some value, they send off another, you know, five or 50 or sometimes $500, but only when they can. And they email me, hey man, like, I'm really sorry. I haven't been able to send anything for a while. So John and I both have noticed it.

And you know, I don't think it's a reduction in quality of the products. Although some would say because we don't askew Israel, it is, but I disagree. Okay. But you know, that's, I think what we're, I think that's what we're staring down the face of. I agree. And it makes me think like, I've kind of brought this mindset. To the boardroom? Or sort of to, well, to the thought about value for value, about the Bitcoin, you know, value tag. Now I knew we're gonna be talking to Chad today.

And it just made me, I've been thinking a lot about this and I feel like it's not inappropriate to have sort of convictions about things. And even if nobody, even if other people don't share those convictions. And so it's, you know, we've always had a feeling that Bitcoin was gonna be sort of a modern hard asset. It would share a use case with gold and in a way that's easier to get into and out of. Now, you know, whether gold, so I mean, gold has a lot of drawbacks too.

You know, it's, you gotta store it, you gotta keep it safe. You can't really ship it very easily without, you know, heavy insurance and that kind of thing. And it's a cumbersome thing to have, but it always, but it serves a purpose as a hard asset and as a store of value. And there was, Bitcoin is sharing that same role, but in a much more accessible, easier to get in and out of, you know, package.

And so I think, you know, what we felt like early on and why we thought that Bitcoin was a good thing to do in podcasting, good thing to support directly in podcasting was because of its digital nature, because of its open nature, because it was easy - Programability. To plug into program, yeah, programmatically. And then, but also that it was going to somehow serve this other role.

And so, you know, a podcaster could say, you know, could do advertising and could do lots of different revenue streams, but then also have this sort of backup strategy. This is the sort of the retirement account for a podcaster where they, you know, for lack of a better terms, you know, stacking stats or whatever. They're also getting a stream of Bitcoin in, which is this hard asset, which is going to resist inflationary pressure.

Yeah, it's volatile, it is, but that's the nature of a 24-7 hard asset. Of a true open market without handbrakes, emergency brakes, of course. Right, and people pull, the reason gold is less volatile, even though it has been pretty nasty the last couple of weeks, even though the reason gold is less volatile is just because it's so much harder to get rid of. Right. You know, when you can get rid of Bitcoin instantly, it's going to swing wildly sometimes.

So anyway, I'm just bringing all that to the table of like this discussion of, I think if you sort of eject the growth mindset and say, well, you know, you can have a conviction about something, you don't have to just be open to, okay, well, I guess we can't do it since we can't support, and we can't do it unless we can support every possible currency that exists in the world and all of them you haven't even thought of yet.

Well, I mean, still to this day, very little work has been done on any other currency, even the dollar, other than Bitcoin. I'm talking about in the RSS feed, I'm not talking about platforms. So you're making a case to keep it as Bitcoin, is that what I'm hearing? I think I'm feeling that way. And I'm not saying reject, you can bring Chad anytime if you want to. No, I don't want to, let him sit there. I'm free. Well, you want to play this last Milton Friedman clip and then we can bring him in?

Oh, yeah, sure. What is he saying here? It's short. Just play it. The difficulty of having people to understand monetary theory is very simple. And that is that the central banks are good at press relations. The central banks hire people and the central banks employ a large fraction of all economists. So there is a bias to tell the case, the story, in a way that is favorable to the central banks. Oh, well, of course, that makes nothing but sense. Nothing but sense.

By the way- When they all work for the Fed, then that's what the story is. Yeah, of course. So two things. One, this explains to me immediately why there is a federal law that no states may make any laws against AI for 10 years. That was quite controversial. When did this happen? That might've been part of the big, beautiful, one big, beautiful bill. Let me see. Yeah, I think so. Let me just double check. Are you kidding me? No, no, no, no, no, no. No. Oh, that's great. Let me see.

No state laws against AI for 10 years. Where did that come from? Let's see. They said, Spencer said they're edging Chad. Hold on. Oh, I'm on expert mode. So it's going to take a second. Expert mode on Grok is a piece of crap. I've been doing an interface today. And I said, change the color. And then none of the buttons would work. You know, it's like- Oh, cool. How hard can it be? They sure do look good. How hard can it be? Don't change anything except the color.

Well, I changed the color and I changed the way the CSS- No, no. Just give me the code for dark. Productive. Do you feel productive? Do you feel very much more productive? Well, again, I feel more productive than having no Dave Jones. That's true. So there's a point. Oh, it's going to take a long time here. Thank you, Mike Newman. Let's bring in Chad. Let's bring in the man of many wallets, ladies and gentlemen, the one, the only, Chad F. Hey, guys. Hey, Chad. How are you?

I'm the man of many wallets. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. It's really weird being here, to be honest. Oh, well, we love having you here, man. And I think I said on the last board meeting that when I heard your voice on the demo you did of one of your V4V music wallets, I'm like, that guy doesn't sound like I envisioned Chad's voice sounding at all. It almost sounded like you thought I sounded like Todd Cochran for a second.

Oh, no, no. I just thought you were like a really wimpy, whiny voice, but you're not. Well, thanks. This says a lot, doesn't it? Yeah. Hey, I'll take that. Well, we're glad to have you here, man, for sure. Because you have been doing, you've been doing just Yeoman's work on testing out everything to see if we can, well, I'm going to, I'll set it up and then you can tell us.

But to me, once Key Send started to become an issue and we started talking about it, you went on a very long journey, months and months, I would say, of trying to find first ways to make Key Send work. And I think you've now switched to, okay, how can we make Bell and Address's work? And with some focus on sovereignty and being self-hosted, I think you've probably let that slip a little bit.

And you've come up with solutions and you're really looking at everything just in any attempt to continue to make this work. The biggest issue, I think, being metadata. Does that kind of sum it up? Yeah, but actually the wallet journey has been, I guess, really ever since we switched from LNPay to Albi, because I know how much of a pain that was. And we've always been, like, personally, I've been looking for an Albi alternative for the last three years. And I still don't really have one.

Yeah, I don't see one out there, you know? Yeah, well, and- You mean like a drop-in API replacement type thing? Um, there's wallets out there. So like that music demo app you referenced that uses the- The Breeze Spark wallet. Yeah, and that was, like, I added that to an app that I already had within a couple hours of vibe coding. And that was really just dropping the GitHub in and kind of getting it to work. So that works. And there are other wallets that work, but none of them do Keysend.

So you can, like, I can, anyone can go and build, like, a new podcast app or a music app using the, like, 30 ,000 value-enabled feeds in the index. But they all have Keysend, so you can't pay them. That may, that is going to be changing as, as my understanding is that Fountain is going to start, you know, changing those feeds to have a LN address. Because I, you know, I spoke with, Oscar reached out to me to make sure that the APIs were right for him to make those changes.

So I think, I think they're going to retroactively, at least for all the stuff that Fountain, all the podcasters that Fountain hosts, they're going to start changing that. So it really, it would be, I guess the other major sources would probably be, what, Wavelake, and then all the self-hosters, LN Beats. Yeah, because really, like, even that demo app basically uses Fountain music feeds because they don't have any Keysend.

So Fountain changes and probably most, probably most podcasters are using a Fountain feed anyhow. So even if they're using, like, Podhome or someone else, I would assume that Fountain would just fix that somehow, but that's, I mean, that's really on the host, honestly. Like if they're making feeds for people with like value tags on them, it's kind of up to them to pick what they put in them. Right. Honestly, and then the self-hosters, which is the camp I'm in.

So like I'm running a lightning node with Albie Hub and it's, as a listener, it's the best setup I've ever had. All of my sending payments show up in Albie Hub and I mean, they show up in Albie Hub and Helipad. And without me having Albie Hub, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this testing that I have just because it's. Yeah, it's a Swiss army knife. You got everything in there. Yeah, like it's just been, it's been working and it's been battle tested and the apps are set up for it.

So kind of all of that said, like the current, like the current model works and we can build new apps, but any new apps need to support Albie or use Albie to pay most of the splits, I guess, because like you could build a new app right now and like all the payments are just gonna fail if you try like a, just say like a CoinOS wallet or like Primal or anything. So those are not. Those are not KeySand, right?

Yeah. Correct, yeah, because none of them, trust me, I've tested them all and Albie's the only thing we have. So all of that said, we, if I had to boil all this down, I would say we need to change, we need to move away from KeySand addresses in the feeds. Yeah, right. And I know that has metadata issues, but honestly, I don't care about that because we need to be sending payments before we can send the message. Because a couple of years ago we had Boost before we had BoosterGrams. Yep. Right.

And all the other Strike or basically all the other stuff, it just needs to be put off for now. Like we need to focus on sending payments because ever since we switched to Albie, say three years ago, everyone's been saying that we need an Albie alternative, but no Albie alternative exists because of no other wallets do KeySand, but the feeds have KeySand so you can't use other wallets anyhow. So it's like a, it's a standoff. And we always say that the feed is the source of truth.

So if you're a podcaster and you have a, I mean, you pick what you want in your feed. Like if your feed has KeySand, then you're going to have to tell your audience how to pay that or if it's a fountain or whatever, like it's kind of on the, like it's really on the podcasters, to be honest, if we're going to. Well, Dave, if you did a search right now, I'm pretty sure that almost 90% of all podcast wallet addresses in the feeds are a fountain. I'm just going to guess.

Well, but see, but even like even the fountain feeds, like if you use, if you use sovereign feeds, well, okay, so if you're using a fountain address and if you use sovereign feeds, it still puts the KeySand information in the RSS feed. I understand, but everyone has to change that. I mean, we've even slowly changed and that'll just, it's going to be painful, but that's just it. I mean, I've switched almost everything over to LNURL for this podcast.

Yeah, and all of the current apps that use Albi minus Podverse have updated to support LN address. So if you would, so if you would move, I'm going to try to think how I want to say this. I guess, so if you're running Node now, you're running Albi Hub, you put your Albi address in your feed, the apps can still pay it. So basically if you switch from KeySand to an LN address, all of the apps minus Podverse can pay them just fine.

So like we can make this transition and we know that the new Lightning addresses work in the feeds, because like I've tested Strike. Yeah, it works fine. Yeah, Cash App and other ones. So like the feeds are okay and the apps can handle paying those because they use Albi. So like we can transition and then once, like once we kind of get more feeds changed over, then we can start adding maybe more wallets into the apps and then worry about the metadata and seeing how we tie other things in.

Yeah, I'm with you on the metadata. I mean, I will miss it very much until we get it kind of working for live shows because it's really cool to have stuff coming in live. I completely agree, but no agenda now is accepting Bitcoin payments through Lightning and it's in the feed as a Strike address. And I'm sure we're missing some things, but in general, the actual booster grams are very low, but we've had several thousand dollar payments come through Strike and people just send us an email.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking a while ago when Chad was describing the issues. It's like, if we, the cliff we're running, the cliff that we're about to run off of is the, first of all, is the KeySend cliff. And so if we fix that first, then I feel like, so if we go through all the feeds, here's what I think I should do. I feel like I should go through and just dump out a list of all of the value block feeds in the index and then group them by top level domain.

So all the feeds that are hosted at Fountain, Wavelake, LN Beats, blah, blah, blah, just and say, okay, and just get sort of like a list that says percentage-wise, here's from most to least, here's where all, here's the biggest impact hosting companies that are gonna have to, that still have KeySend in there that are gonna need to make a change. And then just like publish that so that we can all see it.

And then that lets them, that lets the people responsible for that know what they need, that they need to go in there and make changes and try to just keep that in front of, in the front of everybody's mind until we get like, until we get a lot of, until we get people solving their problem. Yeah, and I have seen multiple podcast guru metadata booster grams that come through on Strike and it has a URL, same as Fountain.

And so, these systems are being tested and built, which I'm extremely delighted by. Actually, I think the Fountain ones, I think they're just a link to the episode in Fountain, but I could be wrong. But the podcast guru ones are a link to like a webpage for podcast guru and it has what looks like the TLV records. I also got one here from Castamatic.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure what Frank is doing yet, but I know the podcast guru guys have been playing around with just putting a URL in like the metadata or whatever. And sending that along. Right, so the metadata is like, you just link out to it and it's readable? Is that the way it is? Yeah, basically, and then I guess like if, like in Adam's example of using Strike to receive payments for no agenda, like Strike's not going to let you tie in to get that data.

So I think that data needs to be sent. Somewhere else. Like, whoa, 10,000 sats, thank you very much. Which I'm guessing that's up to the, I'm guessing that's up to the podcast apps, like. Alex is running, you know, Alex is building the MetaBoost spec to give us an API, like a Swagger, you know, API to get, to send the metadata and then we can all just write to that interface and then on the back end, you can push to wherever you want it to be.

If that's, you know, Nostr, if that's Nostr or somewhere else. I got, I have Fountain, yeah, you're right, Chad. They send you a URL to the Boost, the Boostagram on Fountain. And so I got one here and it took me right to Comix or Blogger's Boostagram. So I can read it right there. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it went to like the episode page or if it went right to the, right to the Boost, but okay, that's good to know. Yeah, yeah. So that's looking good.

What I was saying earlier, the kind of where I was going with all that discussion, you know, previously is where, is that I think that we're just, at some point you can't avoid having some, being opinionated about stuff. And we, I think we've always tried and actually we've gotten criticism for this too.

We've tried to be so open and so accommodating to every possible protocol to where, you know, like when you, for instance, the social interact tag, you know, it's made to be where you can just plug anything into it. You don't, we never said, okay, you must use ActivityPub or you must use this or that. But so we tried, instead we tried to make it where it was just as open as possible and pluggable. But I think, you know, and that's fine. I still think that's the right approach most of the time.

But when it comes to, but then you have to, then you step back and you look and you say, okay, it's been five years. And the only people who are using the value tag in anything like, the only people using it period are Bitcoin people. So it doesn't mean you stop, it doesn't mean we're gonna, you know, that we all change the spec to where it doesn't accept anything but Bitcoin.

It just means that I think like we can safely say at this point in the game, let's focus on Bitcoin and solve this problem and make sure that it works because it's just, it's been in a broken state for months now, sort of. And it's just sort of limping along. And I think we need to like, I'm kind of speaking just from my own mind here.

I'm talking this out myself so that I understand what I'm planning to do and say, well, this is, I'm not gonna feel bad about just digging in and making sure that we fix the Bitcoin part. You know, I don't, anything else, trying to say, oh, well, they dropped KeySend or they're not, they dropped, but like nobody supports KeySend for normal wallets. So let's switch to stable coin or let's try to figure out how to cram the dollar into this thing or whatever.

I mean, I just don't think that's useful. I think we just need to double down on the people who clearly love and use this thing all the time. Yeah, and like you say that Bitcoiners are using this and Bitcoiners are just happy with whatever Fountain decides to do. And I like the direction Oscar's going.

I might not, I might not agree with it, like with the Nostr stuff fully, but like the bit, the quote unquote Bitcoiners are only using Fountain and they'll just do whatever Fountain tells them to do. And my focus is on those of us that have been here all five years and wanna help all of the apps do this, not just Fountain. Like I want, like I wanna help Franco, wanna help the guys that, you know, podcast guru, Mitch over at Podverse, Stephen B at CurioCaster.

So like, I'm like, I kind of see how like, like moving away from KeySend is like the first step to fixing all this. Like for me, testing and vibe coding stuff, if I had more feeds that didn't have KeySend, they wouldn't rely on Albi.

So then I could test, I could test with other wallets and maybe that would bring more, more people on board because like, I've also been working with some Nostr devs and one of them built a music app and they pulled everything in from the index and they said, hey, these all have KeySend payments, which requires using Albi Hub and Albi Hub isn't really that popular amongst Bitcoiners because even they think it's too much to do. So he just turns those off.

So he'll, his app will show all of the music from the index, but if it's, basically if you can't send a zap to it, it's just turned off because he would rather turn it off than have an error message. So it's like, it really just comes back to KeySend and like, it doesn't say KeySend has to go away because you can, I mean, you can still leave KeySend in there and just tell people to use Fountain as long as they support KeySend and use Albi as long as it supports KeySend.

So it's like, I don't know. It comes back to the feeds, I guess, is kind of my, if I had to sum all this up. Well, there's somebody, just trying to figure out who this is, somebody in the boardroom, caught, maybe it's Cotton Gin saying just use Noster. I mean, the problem, I don't want to, the value tag is supposed to be, it's supposed to be a direct interface to the currency or to the protocol that controls the ledger.

It should not be an interface to an intermediary platform like Noster that has some then depend, that where you have to use Noster to get to Bitcoin. That's just, I don't think that that makes any sense. I mean, if you're going to use, if you're going to do that, just figure out how to manipulate like the, just put in some podcast TXT records or something like that to try to shove that in there or put it, figure out how to put it in the funding tag or something like that in some way.

But I mean, the value tag itself is supposed to be a direct interface to the currency ledger tool itself. So that's going to either be directly on -chain, lightning, ARK, you know, something like that directly. I think we have to keep it that way. It doesn't make any other sense to, I do not, I don't think you can, I think it's a slippery slope to try to, because then why don't you just put like a strike directly in there with API calls or something?

Like it doesn't make, I think that's a dangerous thing to do. Yeah, and like, I'm like kind of on the fence with Noster, but like it keeps coming up. So like it being used for the metadata, I do like, because I've added Oscar's proposal to some of my apps, so I can send a boost and it goes to Helipad like it does now. And it also posts to Noster. So that's like, that's a nice option, but that's only like one of three options we have for the metadata.

So it's like that and then ActivityPub or the MetaBoost and I don't know, everyone's going to just argue between the three of those. And so I don't, I'm not really worried about that. I'm not really worried because that's not, yeah, something I'm worried about. But then Noster also adds Noster Wallet Connect that I'm a huge fan of because that adding just that. Good tech, unfortunate name. Yeah, but names don't matter, but.

Right, I'm just saying people immediately think it's a, they need a relay and all that. Yeah, but I don't know how heavy of a load that is for apps to add. None of them, like Franco's kind of played around with it, but he doesn't really, just from what I've seen him post, it kind of sounds like it's like too heavy of a load for him to add to Castamatic, which it might be, I don't know. But NWC like lets us use, I don't know, maybe a dozen wallets and you just kind of copy and paste a string in.

And if you lose that string, you just burn it. So it's like the metadata and Noster Wallet Connect are like the two things from Noster that I like. But then again, Noster Wallet Connect, those wallets don't do keysend. So unless it's Albi, but I don't know. But outside of, so if you want to build something, I guess even the current apps, like if you want to build a new app as a Indy 5 coding dev, you support Albi like we do now, NWC, or you try this Breeze SDK that I've been playing around with.

How do you like that? It's actually pretty slick because it's similar to how Breeze used to be, where the Breeze wallet added podcasting to the app. But with this Spark SDK, you can kind of take that and you can flip it where it's a podcasting app with the wallet baked in. Hmm. So basically you just hit make wallet and it just spits out 12 words and you have it and you write those 12 words down. And if you lose them, you're screwed. Right. But so you spin that up.

But you don't need to manage liquidity or anything? No, that's all done through Breeze because you'll connect it and it takes a couple seconds and it connects there. And then you top it up like you always do now. And I mean, it's almost just like how Albi has always been.

But the only thing I- I think what Dave is just going back to what Dave said initially is if we just take a stand and say, okay, here's what we're doing to fix this since it's been several years, five years, and no alternative currency has been added into the system, I think we just need to stop worrying about normies. Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. You know, just stop worrying about it because normies will either become non-normies or they won't.

And personally, I mean, I've onboarded a lot of people into Bitcoin and they consider themselves to be hodlers, but they still, and there's always going to be trouble. They have problems figuring it out, getting it from strike into fountain, connecting. I mean, you would just connecting. I mean, this is just life. That's just what it is. Yeah, it's part of it. And, you know, topping up and buying your sats and all this stuff.

And as I've always said, it always comes down to the podcasters explaining that to their audience over and over again. And people will do it. They will try. They will really try to do it. There's just no frictionless world and just look at what we're doing. It's amazing any of this stuff works at all in my mind. It's crazy that this has been created and it works. And by the way, we got 10,000 from Castamatic who sent 10,000 sats, says, you guys are crazy.

Hey, no metadata, it's no message, which as you know, is a key aspect of the value for value feedback loop, which is why you're keeping key send at the moment. For those of us that have been building off this for the last couple of years, the messages are absolutely vital. Well, yes, the messages are important. I assume that came from Franco himself. Maybe, I know Franco, well, maybe. I don't know. Well, maybe, I don't know.

I just assume, because he said that before on the Mastodon, so that's why I was curious. But he's right, but it's an order of operations though. I mean, like, it doesn't, yes, it's a message. It's not a reason to keep key send. Well, right, the reason you do get rid of key, the problem with switching, or the reason that you switch from key send to LN address is not primarily to get quote, unquote, normies or things like that. It's because the writing is on the wall.

Yeah, because key send is so sparsely supported amongst wallets. People who are Bitcoin people may not have a wallet that supports key send, and they want to interface with that. And so there, you need to have that. It's keeping even your own rabid fan base in some instances from sending you money. And going back to the Nostra wars of the past, so far Nostra has not come up with the promised alternative to value for value podcasting, because of course they couldn't, we knew that.

But we've also failed in making the payment part easy for the Nostra people. So, I mean, there's really your opportunity. Yeah, well, okay, so assuming that was from Franco, which I think it was. It doesn't matter to me. Well, but okay, I'm just, I've been kind of working with him on stuff. So he's kind of at the top of my mind, but if he's building Castamatic, that's his app. If he wants to support key send, he can keep Albie in Castamatic.

And as long as they support key send, then like, what's, like, I don't see the issue. Because I mean, Albie just, Albie will pay anything. And if he, FAP devs want to support, keep supporting Albie, then that's, I mean, that's their, I don't know, I mean, it comes down to what they want to do. I mean, it really, it comes down to what all of us want to do. Like every app dev, podcaster. Yeah, I'm going to be honest. This is my life. I live on value for value. I live on it.

That's literally how I pay my mortgage, my car, help my kids with their electricity bill. I live on this. I live and die by it. And we still get PayPal's with no note. And you know what they get? A double up karma. And, you know, and notes get lost and it's a very convoluted system. And it's not always perfect, but it's not like the end of the world. If I asked John C. Dvorak, and it took me 10 years to get him to even accept Bitcoin, 10, if I asked him, how critical is the note?

He says, but I don't care at all. Just want the money. And, you know, so it's not the end of the world and we will fix it. But in the meantime, you know, in this transition period, we have to keep the money flowing and which has stopped, by the way, the amount of sats coming into the podcast index node is dropped significantly. Just fallen off a cliff. And I think it's multiple reasons why. And going back to Dave's original point, I'm using Bitcoin more and more as currency.

And there's so many different ways to use it as currency. And there's so many people who are, particularly Chris at This Week in Bitcoin is continuously coming up, you know, showing us new ways of how without selling your Bitcoin, you can transfer it to different places and you can use fiat against it. This is just the pioneering world that we have to go through.

And we may wind up as, you know, we come out of the apocalypse and everything around us is in rubble and ash that we may still be alive, you know, and we'll be using this. I don't know. Sounds to me like 10 years is kind of the timeframe when something has to blow up with the dollar. I don't think we have much more than that. Maybe that's why that 10 year AI thing has been put in place. No laws against AI, state laws.

So, you know, it's like, yeah, it's a step back, but I'm sorry, it's not the end of the world. It's just not. We're not gonna not... To me, the metadata thing is very solvable. But it's been two things that have been holding us back. One, a core group of very hardcore people saying, if it's not sovereign, it's no good. And that has driven away tons of musicians, all kinds of people who just threw their hands up in the air and went, I can't do an Albi hub. I don't feel like doing it.

It's too much work. And they went away. I think that ship has now sailed. I think we're past that, particularly with the strike just being so incredibly easy to convert your Bitcoin back and forth. And now we're at the metadata stage. And I think we just have to do the same thing. We just gotta go. We gotta move forward. Well, yeah, Eric P.P. said metadata is solvable in multiple ways. Yeah, I think the metadata seems very solvable to me.

But you have to figure out order of operations when you have multiple things. You have a switch from key send to LN address, and then you have the fact that LN address does not handle metadata very well. Here's a way to do it. Solve one, then the other. Here's a possible interim step that may help people. Because it's mainly people who are doing live shows who will really miss the Boostergram aspect. And I completely get it.

I think, and by the way, 90% of those people use noagenda stream and the void zero node.net IRC channels. I'm convinced of it. Those are the loudest people. We can easily create a bot. I'm looking at you, Cotton Gin, that will take 1% split of an LN address Boostergram and somehow convert that into an onscreen message as an interim step. So at least we have metadata coming through for the live shows. I think that's the main thing that people want.

Yeah, well, a few of the NA-related shows, I know bowl after bowl, Spencer has a Boost bot right in the IRC that some people use. Yes, we need a dashboard, but we just need to figure out where to pull that from. Well, this is what I'm saying.

If we create one bot, one IRC bot that just does it, and you can put that into your feed, even if you alone are logged in and just looking at what that Boost bot says, that's part of the problem solved right there before we deploy a new helipad or whatever else has to happen. Just a bot, just a single bot. I actually made something similar for Spencer since his stuff posts to bowl after bowl. I actually read the IRC and send those messages out to Noster.

So that's kind of the same idea, but we need those payment flows to be able to tap into it, which I guess is kind of my point and kind of what Dave was saying about we need to... There's so much to fix that we need to kind of just pick something and just start chipping away at it. Right, so I think I'm with Dave. Let's just pick payments first and work on that, and the Fountain guys will change the 90% of wallet addresses in their feeds. And we put out a list, like, hey, you've got to switch.

I don't know any other way. Yeah, let's fix the... It's not like we're gonna lose millions of dollars here, okay? I mean, it's just not, it's just not. Yeah, let's fix the... Franco says angry Boost about metadata wasn't for me. Okay, there you go, good. I stand corrected. Sorry, Franco. Let's fix the fact that a bunch of wallets are not, a bunch of splits are not working right now. Let's fix that first. So the money actually gets...

When somebody, there's nothing more disappointing, but now on the podcaster side, for sure, it sucks not getting those payments, but also it sucks for the people sending it. Like, CSB gets very angry when his splits do not go through. And I feel that, I feel that. Like, I feel the... If I try to send a payment to somebody and it doesn't work, it's annoying. Tell me about it. I sent 100,000 sats this week in Bitcoin from the CLI interface, because I know that he's still doing keysend.

And no Boost was read, so I don't think he got it. But it left my wallet. Although he does have two feeds in the index. I'm wondering if it went somewhere else. But yeah, I felt very... I was let down. Yeah, you've already mentally decided, you've already mentally parted with that money. And then when it comes back to you, you're like, oh, wait, I didn't want that. Yeah, yeah. And like, we're just gonna have a lot more of that as we test stuff out, honestly.

I mean, like a lot of us that are kind of chipping away at stuff can... We like doing that, but I mean, it's gonna... Stuff's gonna fail, but it's either... We either leave it like it is or we fix something. All right, Dave Jones, PodSage, what's the plan of attack here? What's the plan of attack? What are we gonna do? I'm gonna start by dumping out all those feeds and getting us a list that tells where, top to like most to least, who's hosting the most feeds.

And then we just kind of go through and contact those people and get them, inform them that they, if they don't know already, that they need to transition all those receiving addresses over to LNURL. Yeah. Yeah, and if most people are using... I'm just assuming most people are using Fountain Wallets anyhow. So like that should be an easy... Like switching it from the Fountain keysend info just to the someone at Fountain.fm should be easy, at least in my mind. But...

Sam is gonna be affected by this. I don't do... Is TrueFans hosting any wallets? Like podcaster wallets or are they just listener wallets? This I don't know. I think they are, but not many probably. I think they are too. Not many probably. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, if Sam's listening, just let me know if y'all are hosting very many wallets. And they may have already made this transition because they're usually pretty quick to make changes like this.

So I imagine that he's probably already moved every anybody over to a LNURL wallet. But I'll do that first. I think that's just like... I just can't think of 12 things at the same time. So I think that's just, we need to start there.

And then once we get some sort of traction on that and at least get acknowledgement from everybody that they've got some awareness of the issue and have something like a plan to change it, at that point, then we move on to like, okay, let's crack the metadata issue because I actually think that's the easier problem to solve. Yeah, I agree on that. Yeah, and if people don't, I mean, people don't wanna change their feeds, then that's up to them. We went through this when Albie changed.

Like a lot of us, some of us were hosting music and feeds for people. And we had to go through and change all of the old, Albie hosted wallets over to Fountain. And some of those people said, I don't care, just shut it down. And you keep the sats or we never heard from them. So we've got like, when Albie switched over a year ago, we've got feeds that still have those in it. So, but yeah, I like the idea of just like, we just need to know like what's in the index.

And like from someone who's kind of like trying to build demo apps. Like if I have a list of feeds that I know, like don't have keysend that I can add to apps, that helps a lot. Okay, yeah, that should be a very quick thing to do is export all that stuff out. And then we can, I'll just make it available. I mean, it's not, I mean, none of it's private. It's all in the feed anyway. So I'll just publish it. And then we can slice and dice it and figure out what to do.

And there's gonna be some feeds that never fix their stuff. I mean, there's just gonna be, there's gonna be stuff that's abandoned or people don't even know that they put a wallet in there. They don't know what they're doing and they'll never fix it. Somebody on PowerPress that stuck an Albi address in there 10 years ago. And then it's 20 years from now, it's still gonna be have this weird address in there.

Well, like we've seen that on the Albi stuff because they've like, as they've switched off stuff, people are like, hey, I had 100 ,000 sats in here that I forgot about for a year. And now they're gone, but that's just, I mean, that's just part of running with scissors. Hey, Chad, have you actually been able to send anything out of that Breeze Spark wallet or only receive? Oh yeah, I sent a bunch of test ones to last week's episode. No, cause I'm getting all kinds of errors trying to get it out.

There was, I saw CSB post something earlier that in fountain that episode, that year split on that episode failed. Well, no, I'm trying to get it out. I'm trying to get, yeah. So there's like 26,000 sats in there and I want to send it to the podcast index node and I keep getting the payment failure, all kinds of crap. I haven't really done much sending out, but that doesn't, you're not doing a key send payment, are you? No, no, no, no, Ellen address.

Yeah, I don't, I've only been putting like a thousand sats in at a time. Yeah, I just let it sit and it's not doing very well. I'm also on the listener side, so I'm like pumping sats in and not really pulling them out from places. Right. So that's not really my area of expertise. Well, so far failing. But the sats are there and that's what's important. Yeah. Yeah, got to call Roy. Hey Roy, give me my sats man. They're there unless you try to send to Jupiter, then they just go somewhere else.

In my demo app, I'll add this episode and you can boost it and I'll tell you if all the sats made it to my wallet or not. Yeah, well, I mean, again, the problem is getting them out of the Spark wallet. That's the problem. Just boost something, but yeah, we'll see that. That's also a demo wallet. So I don't know, but I mean, you've got Roy's number, right? Can't you just? Yes, I do. I don't want to bother him for 26 ,000 sats, but yes.

There is a Telegram dev group for that SDK that I've been in and he is active in. So, I mean, I don't know if you guys reach out to him and say, hey, we. I'll find him, don't worry about it. I was just noticing it was a problem. Well, I mean just. Roy has Telegram embedded directly into his brain. I mean, never leave. I mean, just like, just maybe tell him, hey, we're thinking about maybe adding this and see if he's. I think he's checked out of the 2 .0 stuff from what I've seen.

Oh yeah, no, he's gone. But I mean, maybe we can bring him back in. I don't know. I doubt it. I'm just a vibe coder, but so I don't really. I'm with you, brother. I'm just a vibe coder. That's a t-shirt right there. Just a vibe coder, man. Don't ask me any questions. That Telegram group's way over my head. But Roy's got bigger fish to fry and I don't blame him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, I'll do that. And then maybe Chris Fisher can tell us why he has two feeds. Yeah, let me see.

Cause I took the one that, let me see. Did he have, yeah, I think he does have two. I think I remember. Yeah, he's got a fountain feed and a Jupiter feed. Unacceptable. Yeah. Unacceptable. See, I don't remember which one I sent it to. I mean, see, that's his problem, having two feeds in the index. Yeah. I mean, if you search it. Maybe if they have the same value splits, then they should. Yeah, they do. They have the exact same value split, which is what's odd.

I mean, if you search a show and you accidentally boost the wrong one, I mean, that's not, I don't know. That's his problem, but I don't know. We just, I'm just trying to rally some people. I'm excited. I'm excited I see options, but I'm also stuck in the way we do things now because it works for me. But I'm willing to. That's how you decay. Yep, that's how things eventually fall off a cliff.

Yeah, well, I'm taking my Node and Albi Hub to the grave with me, but I'm willing to fix this along the way. But I mean, the Node with Albi Hub, it's just so solid. Yeah, so it's so solid, but it requires extra steps, and I understand that, but yeah. It's okay. No, but I mean, again, to this day, Bitcoin, it's the only thing that's in the value block. Nobody else has anything in it. So Dave, is this also your way of saying we should stack SATs to save our skin? SSSS? SSSS?

I wouldn't, that's not a thing I would say, but yeah, I don't disagree with the sentiment. Yeah, well, Tina and I have definitely been doing it. We're all in. We're all in, like, yeah, this feels good. It's good. Yeah. And again, we use it, if we go out for dinner with friends, we'll settle the bill in SATs just for fun, but it's still, he's doing it. Now, and then I'll say- I've got a buddy that does, he does all of the new, like, fancy Bitcoin stuff. Like, he's got a fold card.

He does- Yeah. He does, like, Bitcoin-backed collateral loans. Yeah. Like, he's doing all of that stuff, and like, you know, I don't really, I don't know. I don't go that far. I don't get into it, but it all works. I mean, like, he's doing it all the time. Yeah, it does. You know, and like, once you have a significant, not significant, but like, once you have some holdings, you can, the way things are evolving now, you can really leverage that stuff to do some crazy things.

Yeah. And, you know, he's into all that kind of stuff, and it's pretty impressive, honestly, because you have a, what you have is a thing that the dollars just are hard to rep. It's hard to mimic with dollars. You have like a, you have an appreciating asset, which the dollar is just not. And so you can, like, if you take out, like, a Bitcoin loan or something like, Bitcoin-backed loan, you get, you have a built, you're appreciating in value most of the time against the loan.

And so when you get to like a certain level where it's like the value of your Bitcoin that you've put down as collateral, the value of that number of sats to the value of the loan principle, it'll just sort of like reallocate itself and, you know, it's because you're actually gaining against your loan in dollars. Yeah. Which is, we're just not, it's kind of like a brain- Twister, yeah. Scramble, yeah. That is not what we're used to.

We're used to a constantly depreciating currency, and it's so hard to get your, so sort of like readjust to this thing. You're like, oh, you're saying I could take out a loan in a certain amount of months? It may just pay itself off? Like, I don't, that doesn't compute. Yeah. And so, but once you kind of like learn how to use that whole strategy, like you can do some pretty wild stuff.

And so I don't know, I just think we're, I'm not afraid to just say, well, you know, these are the people that are using it. This is the thing that seems to be, have emerged as a real asset that we can do things with. And that's enough for me. I mean, I'm not, I'm just- We still buy our beef in Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like- That's a basic necessity right there.

Yeah. And if I'm wrong, and it's all just a huge global scam that, that the hood's been pulled over my eyes, maybe, you know, then it's just on me, I guess. Well, let's thank some people for joining in on the scam with some Boostergrams. We appreciate it. Bullysteed, one, two, three, four sats. Chad F, CEO of the free and open internet, AKA VibeCoder. Yes. There's Franco with his Angry Boost metadata. It wasn't about me. I read the 10,000 sats, Angry Boost.

Salty Cray on Howdy Boardroom, 4577. Happy White Paper Day. Ah, yes. Here's my end of month dono in sats conversion. Five, $5 to five. Go podcasting. Thank you, brother. 7777 from Mike Newman. I love it when the pod stage goes meta with a report from Reelville. Hearing similar on This Week in Bitcoin and read it years ago on the Thank God for Bitcoin book. Don't reject BTC, but add others and relook at a Gates proposal from a few years ago. Steady on. Yes, absolutely. Yep. 6900 from Franco.

Life boost is love boost. Yeah, I agree. And with that, I hit the delimiter. Guess, let's see what we got. We got some one-offs here, which is nice to see. We got, these are PayPal's. We got $10 from Jeffrey Hallam. Thank you, Jeffrey. Jeffrey Hallam. Thank you, Jeffrey. We got, who's this? Oh, this is Bronze Oxen Films, LLC. Sent us $25. Well, thank you. Do you know Bronze Oxen Films? I have never. In fact, I think we need a defragmenting. You've been defragmented. Thank you for participating.

Oh, Adam and Dave. Thank you for all your work to keep speech free and open. Your efforts have enabled many years of fruitful ministry at the Schoolhouse Rocked podcast and the Biblical Family Network. Go podcasting, Sir Thinking Dad, guardian of the home educators. Yes, very nice. Homeschoolers unite. Yep, we homeschooled our oldest too. And she's no longer on drugs. It's great. Let's see, three, oh, this is a big one. $330. Whoa. Paula, shot caller, 20 inch blades on the Impala.

That's from David McAnally and the message just says V for V. Oh, V for V back at you, brother. Thank you. V for V. V for V, love it. Thank you, that really makes a difference. Everything makes a difference, to be honest. Man, that's, I don't know. I don't think David McAnally's ever said anything. He may want to defragment me too. You've been defragmented. Thank you, David. Really appreciate that. I hope, I'd love to know what you're doing with it, with the index.

Oh, $777 from the boys at rss.com. Bang. Paula, shot caller, 20 inch blades on the Impala. Thank you, boys. That is, and girls, that is very much appreciated. Wow, keeping us going yet another month. Love it. Yeah, Ben says, to the best open source project. Thanks, Dave and Adam, for keeping podcasting, for keeping podcasting human, creative, and independent. To the team at rss.com. Thank you, team. Thank you very much. Yeah, team. Thanks, team. Go team. Let's see, what else we got?

We got some booster grams. Let's see, ugly quacking duck. That's Bruce, 2222 through podcast guru. He says, keep going, Adam and Dave. We appreciate what you do. 73s from Southern Illinois, wet and cooler here. Yo, 73s, kilo five, alpha, Charlie, Charlie. Let's see, oh, Franco, speak of the devil. Franco, 10,000 sats through Castamatic. He says, I'd love to hear your thoughts on streaming sats versus boosts.

Doesn't thinking boosters by name on the show while not mentioning streamers risk discouraging listeners from streaming? In my show, I think both, and I'm seeing roughly 80% of sats coming from streaming and about 20% from boosts. What's your experience and take on this? Well, that's a good question. I don't have an answer. I don't think we've ever thanked streamers separately. I know Chris does, which I always appreciate. And he does get a good amount from streaming.

Obviously- He thinks of them as a group though, right? Doesn't he say thank you for all the streamers and give a total? Yeah, he does, you're right, you're right. Yeah, I think Chris just adds all of yours together because I've sent a couple of small boosts and it's just like, he'll just add 10 boosts together in the streams, which is one way of doing it. So the answer is, yes, of course we want names. Of course we want metadata. We have to go through, we got to go through the wall of pain.

I don't think it'll take too long. Wall of pain. No metadata for a bit. Wall of pain. Yeah, the wall of pain. But you could do, you could accumulate, you could like, you could get those numbers from Helipad, right? Yes. You could dump all that out. Yeah, yeah, you could dump it out, yeah. Yeah, but Helipad requires running a node. Yep. Which is kind of what we're trying to get away from. I guess, I guess Franco's running a node. Just saying, I think he has AlbiHub in the cloud. He has.

He mentioned he has some kind of, something with the API. He's pulling it out. Oh, he's doing a, he's doing a custom job. I got you. Yeah, he's, you know, he's a doctor. He's in there fixing it. He's got his scalpel, his tweezers, gauze. Yeah, he's just, he has a little mirror on his head. Of all people to be afraid of a little blood in the water, come on, Franco, we're going to be okay. We're going to be okay, brother. We're going to be okay. Let's see. Oh, CometStreetBlogger. Did a limiter.

14.015 sats through fountain. And CSB says, howdy, Dave and Adam. Today, I want to recommend a podcast called Happy to Help from the link happytohelp.buzzsprout .com. Quote, Happy to Help is a podcast about all things customer support, brought to you by the people at Buzzsprout. Join us on the second Tuesday of every month as Buzzsprout's head of podcaster success, Priscilla Brooke, dives into the world of customer support to make remarkable support the standard, not the exception.

End quote. Yo, CSB, the AI arch wizard. Thank you, thank you, CSB. That's beautiful. We got Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. Chris Bernardik, $5. Thank you, Chris. And Dreb Scott, $15. Wow. Let me see, what is this picture that was posted here? Oh, Lord. Lyceum. I don't know, Lyceum. I'm not getting your boosts over here, man. True fans. That's so weird, because I'm getting even two sat boosts from IPFS. So I don't understand. True fans stream from, hmm. I don't know, I'm not seeing that here.

Let me see, let me look in streams for a second. Let me see if I'm seeing streams. Yes, no, I'm seeing, oh, it actually says true fans stream from podcasting 2.0 to 40 live October 31st, 2025. Okay, so I do see them. I see them in helipad, yes. Oh, Sam just, like when I posted the live thing on ActivityPub, he sort of reposted with his own live link off true fans. That's cool. His own live, oh, so you can listen live on true fans. Yeah, yeah, I kind of like that.

It's almost like a link tree of all the different places. That's pretty cool. Well, thank you all very much for the value that you've sent, for the value that we provide with podcastindex.org. All of these funds go into the podcast index to keep all the machines running, to keep us safe and sound for at least a couple of years. So we appreciate that. Don't let up, though. Don't let up. It's been kind of like evened out with cost versus coming in. So we want to continue this to keep it going.

Really appreciate all that. And Chad F, thank you so much, man, for all that you've been doing. I think everyone sees you. We all see your tests and we all have been watching with bated breath of what's the next thing he's figured out. And that effort is really appreciated. Yeah, it is. Thanks, Chad. Open source is people and you- Open source is people. Now there's another t-shirt. Open source is people. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah, well, I mean, honestly the Bitcoin stuff is my favorite part of Podcasting 2.0 and I just kind of want to help expand that. So I'm here if anyone wants my opinion on this stuff, it's- Yeah, I mean, someone's got to, but I mean, I see the problems and I do want to open it up, but also kind of want, I don't know, I don't want all this just to turn into Spotify or Apple again. So any kind of pushback or rudeness is - We understand. I'm stubborn.

But I mean, this is like, I mean, this is cool. I mean, we just ran off a bunch of boosts. People grabbed their phone, you know, sending us money. That's, I just want more of that at the end of the day. I agree. Thank you so much, brother. Brother Dave, thank you. Yep. Hey, happy Halloween to everybody, if you celebrate that, this pagan holiday. And thank you very much, Boardroom. Thank you for being there. And we will return next week on Friday for another board meeting right here on Podcasting

2.0. You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information. Go podcasting! Well, but they can all get a sandwich here at my house.