Episode 223: Messy Desks

Podcasting 2.0 for June 6, 2025, Episode 223, Messy Desks. Hey everybody, what's going on? Is the world in turmoil? Are you confused about what's happening? Who cares? It's time to talk podcasting. Of course, the future of podcasting, everything happening right now with the podcast industrial complex, and all the stuff Dave and I can just get away with discussing at a board meeting. We are the only boardroom that Apple executives actually should attend.

I'm Adam Curry, here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country, and in Alabama, the man who turned your interstitials into bumpers and free rolls. Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones. Nice timing, Dreb. Dave, a heart right in the middle of the intro. I think Dreb timed it. He got a little heavenly boost there. Perfect timing. We were swept off to heaven. I was. Whoa! Well, I should read it now. Pre-show boost. It's a weight loss update. I'm down 20 pounds.

No, 15.5 pounds lost in 53 days. Approximately two pounds a week. Consistent walking five miles a day. Haven't missed 10k steps a day in those 53 days. Go podcasting! The question is, what is he listening to while he's doing his steps? Us. I would hope so. That's what podcasting's good for. He's going through the whole back catalogue. How you doing, brother Dave? Messy. Yeah, I'm messy too. I'm real messy. You know what the messiest thing was?

It can't be coincidence that we get the President Trump and Elon Musk doing a WWE mock fight. Like, okay, I'm on to this nonsense. But today, Grok could no longer code. It just completely forgot how. It was freezing. It was stopping. Would write half a script. And then it would do it unformatted. I start a new conversation. Just completely off its rocker. No good.

And you know, when I get and when I get to that at all, sometimes you'll just stop and just in the middle of writing something, it'll stop and you say, hey, you stop. I'm sorry. And they'll go on and stop again. But just making really odd choices. You know, like I figured out the best way to change a huge Python script is to ask it to write a shell script and edit the original script, like with sed or awk. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

So you're saying that the best way to get Grok to write Python is to ask it to write a shell script to write the Python? No, no, no. To fix, which would be hilarious. In debugging Python, I don't know how many lines of code I have. But in debugging that, it rarely ever makes it to the end. It just stops and it starts to make triple quote comment errors and syntax that just can't do a large script.

So I say, hey, the changes you want to make, just write a shell script with sed and awk, whatever you want to use and change it. And that actually works. But then. Wait, I'm totally confused. You're, you're, you're saying. I know, it's great, isn't it? I don't understand what's happening. Okay. Okay. You're saying that sed and awk to make the changes? Yes, because if you want to wait for Grok to write to write the whole Python script again, if it even gets to the end, it'll take 15 minutes.

Well, that is the weirdest thing. Okay. I don't want to hijack this, but me and Alex and I have been talking offline about our, our struggles with or in struggles and successes with LLMs as far as Rust code goes. And, and the, I made the comment this morning that that we just, we live in strange times. This is true.

When you're having to ask like, like Gemini, he was, he said, Gemini is great at Rust macros, you know, but it can't tell you, it cannot tell you, but Gemini cannot tell you how much protein is in a half pound of ground beef. Well, you know, and it's the other way around too. Oh, the open AI 01 can, can nail the ground beef, you know, but it sucks at macros. Like what, what are we doing? Yeah. Well, what are we doing? You're absolutely right.

But so, so Grok is just slow at writing this Python code and the long, let me just see how many lines of code. Let me just tell you how many lines of code this script is. It's a setup script. It's the one that, you know, that sets up a streaming station from a, from an RSS feed. All right. So it's your run book. It's my run book. Yeah. Thank you. That's a good way to look at it. It's my run books. Let me just take a look at this. I'll tell you how big this is. This is lines of code.

Wait, that's not, can't be the right one. I don't have any pants on right now. Okay. That is the ISO of the day. Could someone please, could someone please ISO that for me? I'm telling you, I'm in a risk. It's a mess over here. I'm now, I'm deep pants and now I've shorted myself. So I'm shorted now. So this is 1,119 lines of code. Whoa, that's a lot of code. Well, it's a setup and it includes, it's a template, right? It creates two, it creates three separate scripts.

Okay. A liquid soap script, a parser script, and an updater script. And then it does a couple other things. So yeah, that's, that's a reasonable amount of code. And so, so, so, and this was working and then I find out, okay, do you mind if I tell you the whole story? Cause that'll, I think it'll actually make you laugh. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. I will stop interrupting. Okay. So I had this thing running. It takes an, and this is podcasting related. It takes an RSS feed.

Uh, that is a, an act like a public publisher feed, basically an aggregated feed. So it does all kinds of different episodes. It downloads and caches what it needs to. And it turns that into a, a nice cast stream based upon what is the newest episode. And it goes down the list. And if a new episode pops up, it plays that next. So you have kind of a fresh radio field to it. The serendipity is fantastic when it works.

And the idea is when it gets to the end of the playlist, if it doesn't have any new more episodes, mark everything is not played and refresh the playlist and start over again. Okay. So this was, and then there's a whole metadata up. Actually, it's important to know that you cannot rely on MP3 files for MP3 data. So I was taking the title and description from the item tag in the RSS feed and that I was pushing to the ice cast server as, as the metadata. So you can see what you're listening to.

You with me? I'm with you. Okay. So turns out, cause, and the, it was replaying episodes and like, what is going wrong? Why is it not marking these episodes as played? And I would like to guess I'm not, I'm going to stay quiet, but I would like to guess before you tell me what the problem was. Yeah. Go for it. It was a file permission issue. Oh no, no, no. I woke up this morning and the almighty intelligence gave me the answer. And I went to look and it was true. I went to look and it was true.

Okay. So it had determined that the best way to, um, now there's always these little nuances with title mapping, you know, so you have got to match the file. So it downloads the file, gives it its own special name, and then it maps it to the title and then you're good to go. But sometimes the title might have some extraneous characters. So there's a lot of rejects in there. So you don't get this whole, this whole long URL or chopped off bits.

It was instead of the smart way to do it, which is, is this file, which I have in my file system playing? Yes. Put it in the played episodes file. It was mapping the file it had on his file system to a title and then trying to match the title back to put that into the played episodes file. So it was, it was doing the stupidest thing in the world. And I, and I say, why are you doing this? Oh yeah, that wasn't very smart. Let me do it by episode. So that's where it started. Are you with me?

I'm here. You are going to be a Python coder by the time this is finished. Well, so teaching you, this is teaching you how to code. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm basically now coding it myself because all I said was, could you please just change this from mapping URL mapping to episode mapping? Oh my gosh. It was three hours. It's doing this, it's doing that. It forgets how to parse a feed. You know, it's, it's written its own feed parsing logic.

I said, there's the feed parser module that you've imported into Python. Use that. I mean, it just makes all these decisions. So then I'm like, screw it. I go over to Manus. Well, Manus was a man is my anus.

This was a disaster. That thing's a disaster. Cancel that subscription. Then I go to chat GPT, chat GPT, super fast at giving me everything wrong. Every single time it did the same thing. It went off and built its own feed parser, which doesn't work. I said, I didn't ask you to change that. I said, change this. I didn't ask you to write a new liquid soap file. And it just does that stuff. It sucks. It's all no good. I'm learning to code. I'm going to do it myself. It is no good. This is great.

I love this. This is awesome. It's not awesome. It's very frustrating. Well, I mean, I'm over it now. I know I take my breaks when it works. I take a praise break. I say praise, praise God, praise the, the, the almighty intelligence for making it work. I've prayed over this. Like, please, okay, please just give me, give me the insight into this. So now I'm just in the code doing it myself. It's so stupid. This is, and it happened the minute Elon got into a tiff with the president.

That's when everything went downhill. This, uh, I just, I just, I'm sorry for laughing. No, it's okay. It's completely laughable. That's the whole thing. It's so stupid. Well, so I've, the reason that my desk is a mess and I didn't have pants on just second ago. Stop. I don't want to know. Here's here's TMI, TMI, TMI, TMI. By the way, expect an email from me that says you better send me one Bitcoin or I'm going to release the video that I recorded of you. All right. That's coming.

I know what you did. That's the one. That's me. That's my email. I took over your webcam. Um, yeah. So is, uh, I built, I built an, a local LLM server this week. Why, why, why? Well, uh, many reasons, many reasons. One of which is I've, I found a sort of, I found a workflow that kind of works because here, here's, here's what's happening. I'm struggling to get coding time on index on the, on the, on the podcast. I know, I know.

And, uh, because, uh, just, you know, I essentially have three jobs now. So, um, I'm struggling to find that, that time in my life. And so I thought, okay, there's, I'm, I'm going to attempt to put, um, to put LLMs to use for this. For, for, for, uh, for index stuff, uh, for anything, for anything, for anything. I gotcha. I gotcha. So I installed open web UI on its old Mac mini. Uh, it's like an M one Mac mini. And, um, do you, do you know open web UI to use that? Um, I don't know. Tell me.

It's very cool. It's very cool. It's just an open source, uh, very elegant web interface that to, into a Llama. Right. Oh, no. Start nine uses that. Exactly. And you can look, you can, you can load all of your, all of your different models. And yes, I know exactly what it is. Yeah. Okay. So I put, I put that on this M one and then, uh, shared it through tail scale so I can have it on my phone and that kind of thing.

And, and out and about when I'm, when I'm not in the house and then, uh, so this like it's this, all this whole getup is on my desk. Now I had just on this, I've got two machines in front of me and the keyboard was detached, all this mess.

So I got, but the M so the, what I'm doing is I'm using, uh, one of the code specific models whenever I have a, because these it's, it's bad being, I don't know if it's ADHD or what it is, but it's, I'll have this killer thought about a new tag, a new, a new, uh, code idea for the index, um, or for podcast in general, I'll have all these ideas. And if, and I've always struggled to keep notes because sometimes, sometimes you have to flesh this stuff out. And so I'm like, I'm like on a walk.

I'm walking the dog or I take walks at work during my day job and I'll be on a walk and, and I'll have this great flash of, of an idea or in, you know, and I, if, if I do not stop and, and put it down and, you know, in pen and paper or whatever, at that moment, it'll be gone and I'll never get it back. Like, it's just the way my mind works.

And so I thought, okay, I've got, I just, anytime I have a flash of brilliance about something, I'm going to throw it into the LLM, whether it's code or anything else. And I'm just going to say, um, you know, write, write a pro write a function that does so-and-so just some sort of thing that I can get my, get it to be saved in perpetuity. And it'll give me sort of like this first pass sanity check on whether or not this idea I have works. And, uh, so far it's been working pretty good.

Like, um, you know, I had, I had an idea for how, um, I tried to do some work on the new aggregator a couple of days ago, and I had an idea of how to structure the, of how to write the rust struck structures that are going to contain the SQL inserts. And so I was going to, uh, it needed to be sort of like a dynamic structure, uh, that would then get serialized. And so I just, I'm like, I'm like, okay, I think I can do it this way.

And I just got in there on my, I was actually on my phone and I was like, just write this, write a, write a, uh, function. Wait, what do you, what do you use on your phone to do that? What program, what app do you use to use? Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. And, uh, and I'm like, just write this in that. And then I'm like, okay, I'll figure out what it did later and if it's even useful.

And then I'll figure out how to like mod take that because here's one thing I have found out with these coding LLMs is if you tell it to write a function, it is way better than if you tell it to write a whole piece of software or a whole script or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Because it has zero intelligence. It doesn't know how to string the pieces together that you as a beautifully made human can do in your head. And you could, even before you write it on paper. Absolutely.

Yep. But, um, it's working. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. It's working. Okay. And it's keeping my ideas because I like the way open web UI works because it's got like sort of your list of things you've done and on the sidebar there. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The things you've asked it to do.

Yeah. Sure. And this, I'll say like, uh, here's a, I need, uh, I'll give it a URL and say like based on this format of the podcasting, uh, namespace documentation for this tag, I want to write another tag that has these property that has these attributes and these, this possible node that, and, and, you know, just have it like spit out a thing where I can come back later and just have like a template ready to go.

So that for that kind of stuff, I think it's like, it's actually helping my life, but I mean, we're only in week one, so who knows where that goes after this. I don't know, but it's, it's been an adventure and open web UI is, I think, I don't think I'll ever be paying for any of this stuff anymore. I mean, it's just not worth the money. It's so expensive.

And, and I don't, I don't see what, I mean, I guess you could get some added value over like added value over stable diffusion for something like mid journey maybe. But even that, I mean, I was running stable diffusion locally and it's really good now, like own the local LLMs. It's a little slow. Sure. You know what I've been noticing? Um, cause I'm in a unique position with, uh, with no agenda, the no agenda art generator. Mm. So we get for every episode.

So twice a week between 15 and 30 submissions from art, which 90% sadly is now AI generated. The real artists, anyone who does Photoshop, they've gone, they don't even listen anymore. They've rage quit. They suck. Oh yeah. It's it's, it's, it is truly horrible. It's the saddest thing, but there it is. And you know, people are either like Darren O'Neill were convinced he's even submitting under a pseudonym because you know, we were, we were like angry at him for submitting too much.

And what we're seeing is there's no more white. There's no more black. A lot more is now kind of cartoonish and I'm detecting model collapse. I think this is model collapse. I think it's, it's generating things based upon the stuff that's out there. And it's just degrading. I mean, I really think this is happening and this has to be happening with everything else.

I think the problem is people are using this stuff in production and where, whereas like, so, you know, we're developing, uh, uh, this feature for Godcaster. And I needed some, some sample, just like, uh, call them what we have bumpers in, you know, audio inserts, whatever you want, just things like, you know, Hey, thanks for listening to the show. That kind of thing. So I needed some of those. And, um, and so I wanted to just, I'm like, I don't care what these really sound like.

I just want to be able to tell them apart. I need something that says, uh, this is clip one. This is clip two. This is, you know, post-roll two, this is post-roll three. I just needed some of that kind of stuff. I liked your AI that you use for that. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, well just give me some sort of AI that can sound at least intelligible and, uh, you know, and, and give and just pump out a few of these things. Right. But they're only for testing.

Like this is never going to go into any, right, right, right. But it's getting sucked up somewhere though. Yeah. And, and then P but people are putting this all over, you know, podcasts and everything, and then it just gets sucked right back into the model on the next, on the next go around at some point. I mean, it's, it's that it's classic model collapse. They're going to be training AI on AI output and none of it's labeled. So you don't know it's AI output, you know?

So I don't know what, I mean, yeah, I totally believe that when, when, you know, you know that there's no way that this is not the case that Anthropic and OpenAI and Google and all of them have sucked up all of the artwork off NodeGen to ArtGenerator. Yep. Of course, of course they have. And they're sucking up AI art back into their AI model. Yep. Yep. It's entropy and motion. Yes. It's complete collapse. I mean, even if you just go look at it now, it's crazy.

Like, oh no, you can see the degradation, the only, and of course it's all the free stuff. And then, you know, someone comes along and says, oh, there's this new model. And then they use that model and you see that degrade. It's, it's to me, it's just like, this is obviously happening. It's very obvious. Yeah, I agree, man. And then I'm like, oh man, thank you God that I know Dave Jones, someone who actually can code. No, you're going to be a coder by the time this is done.

I'm going to be a Python expert. That's for sure. I'm really getting there. Once I get my brackets closing right. You're going to be pushing modules up to PIP. PIPX baby, because you know, PIP, you have all kinds of permission issues with, you're going to install this worldwide. Don't do it. Use PIPX or whatever. Oh yeah. That's right. You glow. Don't do global. Yeah. Yeah. Don't run as rude. Yeah. Don't run as rude.

Yeah. I think like, I think like Rust, Rust is great in an LLM because for, I mean, not, it's not perfect. Nothing is, but it's one of the better languages for LLMs. I think because it's a very strict language. It's, it's a highly strict language. It's, it's strict. It uses strict typing. Like the nurse ratchet of languages. Yes, exactly. And the stricter the language, the better that LLMs can sort of handle it because it's just following a syntax at that point.

But you know, and that's what they're good at. They're good at syntax. It's sort of like, uh, I don't know if you ever were, were a Dungeons and Dragons person, but. No, I would say there's no risk of me being that. Yeah. D so D and D fourth edition was considered to, you know, so what happens a lot of times with, with, with D and D is that video games will take the D and D rules and just use them as the, as the algorithm for the, for the game, for the video game.

Well, D and D fourth edition was great for video games because it was very strict and very, uh, it's, there was a lot of stacking of rules that went on and, but humans found it very difficult. Um, because it was like this very complicated, uh, set of, um, like almost protocols that you had to follow. And, but, but video games were loved it, but humans didn't. And it seems like it's in, it seems like that's the way it is with LLMs.

When it comes to coding, the stricter, the language, the farther you're going to get in a decent way with an LLM, if it's something like with not with non-strict typing, something like Python or PHP or something like that, it's just going to run off the rails so fast or JavaScript, you know, you're, you're, you're gonna, at some point, you're just going to fall off a cliff once it gets complicated, complex enough, because then you just can't even, you can't even follow the return

values correctly. Yeah. It was a mess. Well, there you have it. Daniel says the last time Adam learned to code, he invented podcasting. And now, thank you. There's a point there. That was, that was Apple script, the most undocumented scripting language in history. Could never, could never find a somewhere where it told me how to do it. Well, I mean, that's not that much different than Apple's iTunes namespace, which leads to a 404 page. Really?

Yeah. Oh, by the way, you know, we, we've been talking about this on no agenda. Oh, big news, big news, everybody. Okay. This is fantastic. No agenda. We'll very soon as, as soon as the strike business wallet, whatever thing is approved, we will be accepting streaming payments and boosts. Finally. And the way all these years, the way this went down is amazing because, you know, Dvorak, he just never wanted Bitcoin to touch our LLC, LLC, LLC. That's like LLM, LLC. Where am I?

Oh, you know, we don't want any tax issues. Right. And so there's, you know, and I've been telling him for years, like, look, there's all this legit stuff now. And then, you know, Trump became president. And a part of it, I think, is Dvorak's just mad that every single time I told him to buy Bitcoin, he didn't. Even when I told him at $30,000, I said, buy a Bitcoin. If you lose money, I'll pay you the difference. You know, so what do we got? 105. So he's just mad. He's mad in general, just mad.

He's very sour about it. And so, you know, when Strike came out and then Strike was accepting, you know, payments from Fountain through Ellen URL, I'm like, OK, this works. It's legit. You can send it to the bank account on the same day it comes in. You can sell it. They keep track of it. You know, there'll be no capital gains. You sell it right away. It's all going to be OK. It's going to be OK. Then, bless his heart, some producer pops up and says, oh, hold on a second, Dave.

This has been happening more often with... We're not recording. No, we're not. No, we're recording. But CleanFeed, from time to time, just decides to just change interfaces. I heard the switch. You heard the switch? Yeah. And we're back. So it just decides to hold on a second. What is going on here? This is this is very bad. So some producer sends an email, says, hey, I want to I want to send a big donation. You know, like I think we have the Ph.D. promotion running. That was a thousand bucks.

And he says, but I want to send it in Bitcoin. So I say, hold on. So I forward this email to Dvorak. Now, he once told I'm going to have to out this guy because otherwise the story is no good. Tom Merritt. We know Tom Merritt. What's his tech show called again? Is it just Daily Tech News or something like that? I think it is. Tech Today or something. So years ago, years and years ago, Dvorak was talking about the value for value model.

And he says, you know, we take checks, we take cash, we take gold coins, we'll take whatever, whatever, whatever people want to send us. And Tom Merritt famously said, oh, no, I don't want to take checks. Oh, no, that just feels wrong. And so we'd always laugh about that. So what's wrong with that? Checks are fantastic. We have a whole stack of three dollar checks from people. It's fantastic. And so I put in this email, you don't want to be the modern day version of Tom Merritt, do you?

Boom, boom. He went right for it, went approved. Good to go. That's the best part of that story. Exactly. So that's going to happen. Such a simple like it's such a simple. So a friend of ours, he he's like he's a how would you describe what he does? He's like a. Do I know this friend? No, no, no, no. A friend of mine and Melissa. Oh, OK. He he he's like he's like a counselor, a therapist guy.

But he went but he did sort of like his I don't know what they call this, not residency, but he did his his initial work out of school at a like a substance abuse recovery center. And he said he'd been talking to this guy for just, you know, for like a couple of weeks. They just just not clicking, not getting through. And he finally said one day he was talking to him and he was like he's like, man. He told him he was like, you're just a train wreck.

And he said the guy just like stopped and just like dropped his head. And he's like, yeah, yeah, I am a train wreck. And from then on, it's like changed the guy's life. And he just it works. Yeah, it works. It works. Just this one little statement, this one little sort of cliche, you know, cliche. You don't want to be the next Tom Merritt. OK, you got me done. We're done.

So my point was, so we've been talking about all these complaints about Apple's update, updating policy or their polling or whatever they're doing for podcasts to get into. To get into the before they surface on on Apple, on the Apple podcast app. And after we had this conversation last time, which you'll remember fondly, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, I've thought about it all week. Yeah, right. In fact, Spurlock posted.

Right after the show, and if you saw that he posted because we were talking about Megyn Kelly, let me see if I can find that on a post about Jake Tapper. Yeah, no, no, no. Chuck Todd. That's it. I got him. Let me see if I can find it. Spurlock, you post a lot. He does. Yeah. So it was it was it's so funny. I wish I could find it quickly. So Chuck Todd on the Todd Chuck Todd cast, he said, he's like, you know, the if anyone knows any of the engineers over over at Apple, I really, really do.

I just pasted it into the. Oh, you got into the boardroom. You got it. OK. And let me play it so people can hear it, because it's pretty funny. Here we go. Got all these things. You can hear us anywhere you want. YouTube, we'd love for you to subscribe to the channel. Everything else, Spotify, Apple, you name it. And if Apple isn't uploading right away, automatically help us inform Apple that they're messed up. This has been an issue.

Luckily, apparently we're not the only podcast with this issue. But please feel free to let the engineering team know themselves. Hey, Apple, you've got a problem. We've done it. Maybe they'll be responsive to a little more responsive to you. Yeah, sure. So with that work. Yeah. So what's engineering team at Apple dot com. Right. So what's interesting is that he also says, hey, they haven't uploaded it yet. And you can't expect people to understand how it works.

You know, they just they just don't know. And I and I know there's a lot of people listening to Noah Jenner. I said, stop being so arrogant. Just use pod ping, just use it. Hundreds of thousands of podcasts use this jump on the pod ping train, baby. Get on the tracks with us. It is so and it'll cost you nothing. It'll save you money. You don't have to you don't have to do anything. Try it out for a little bit.

You know, just what is the what is the the script called or whatever we have the the ping catcher? What's it called? Oh, Hive Watcher, Hive Watcher, whatever it is, you know, just go to pod ping dot cloud. You can get it from anywhere. Just just do it. You're wasting resources. Your customers are getting angry at you. And I guarantee you, you will love it. And you'll and you'll and you can then go out and market and say we update quicker than Spotify. And that's the raspberry on the end. Right.

So when he is, you know, when when he posted that, I went and looked up his podcast, the Chuck Todd cast. Oh, goodness. And it's it's pushed out through Simplecast. That's his hosting company. Oh, Simplecast. Do they use pod ping? I do not know. They do declare the podcast namespace, which almost everyone does now. I mean, I don't know if anybody has looked recently, but the podcast namespace is ubiquitous. I mean, it's love that it's almost every single major hosting company.

Oh, I didn't even realize that's awesome. That is. I mean, there's it's so broad, broadly defined now, which is fantastic because that sets the stage for, you know, in so many things that we can do that getting over that hump is so difficult. And I will be forever grateful. For, you know, for the for the early believers in this Sprout RSS dot com and blueberry. Yes. That jumped on board and declared the name the namespace in their feeds. Red Circle, you know, cast transistor. Captivate.

I mean, just all the early all the very early ones that had large catalogs of podcasts that jumped on this. I just I'll never be able to say thank you enough for them. But. So Simplecast declares the namespace. But I can't tell whether they use pod ping or not, I just haven't looked. I would need to, like, strain that out a little bit and be able to check if any of those are coming through. And I just haven't yet. But but the thing about it is. If Apple were to start watching pod ping.

And and then publicly said. That they were if they announced that they were going to do it. Instantly. You would have like. 20 other hosts jump on board and start doing this, of course, because it would have a motivating effect. Yes. And so they would get the benefit of like if you look at it, if they look at it and say, well, there's, you know, this many feeds out of our catalog are are sending pod pings when they update. And it's, you know, I don't know, 25 percent or whatever.

Well, you can just at least double that instantly. Instantly. I agree. Half your catalog is is is pod pinging immediately. Because it's so easy. It's only one get request. That's it. One get request per what? Per feed update. Oh, right, right, right, right. But I mean, they don't have to do a get request. They just have to get on the hose. Right. Just open their mouth and let it stream in. Oh, isn't that how it works? Get on the hose. Get on the hose. Get on the hose. Apple.

Apple, get on the hose. If if. Yeah. And Captain Sweatpants is right. If Apple supported it, Lipson would even support it. That is. Oh, yes. That's right. Yeah. And then you know what? Overcast would still not be a part of it. No. You know, he'll never do that, but that's OK. But of course you can do whatever you want. Yeah, because we saw that with transcripts as soon as Apple said we support transcripts. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Tons of support just popped up.

I'm seeing I'm seeing a lot of buzzsprout. On piping. Spreaker. Spreaker does a lot. Yeah. Spreaker has a lot of stuff. It would you would have to filter out to see the simple if Simplecast is sending because. It's too small. It's too small. Yeah. It's just going to get buried in the noise. Their catalog's not big enough. Yeah. We need to we need to talk about Castamatic. OK, let's talk about Castamatic. Because speaking of podping, because Franco.

Somehow has put together a way to support live in a podcast app that does not have a back end. It's magical. So he must be using podping technology. He owed for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so I guess the only thing I can think of is he's he's spun up a push notification server because this is iOS only. And I'm going to try. So we need to get him on the show to talk about it. But he has a conflict every time we record the board meeting because of his day job and everything.

Yeah. So we may have to do a boardroom after dark. Is he saving lives? Stop that, doctor. Yeah. I mean, that that that guy's been sick for a long time. He'll still be there. Yeah, that guy will be sick tomorrow. Don't worry about it. Yeah. But I'll I'll coordinate with him to see what time we can get him on.

But I'm assuming that he would that he spun up a push notification server that's watching the podping, you know, Hive Watcher come through because it worked like a charm yesterday on no agenda. Oh, cool. Yeah. Boom. There it is. Oh, I need to check. Actually, I need to check and see if it came through on my phone today when we went live. Oh, I don't have my phone with me. Dang it. Did anybody did anybody see anybody in the boardroom see if if it came through on Castamatic today? Because.

I mean, that's. That's pretty that's a big deal for him because he just does not have he's not like like true fans, pocket cast. Fountain, I mean, they all have a pretty extensive back end infrastructure that they can depend on to just roll out things like that, but he doesn't. And. You know, that's that's a big and it's more than just it's more than just podping is podping and live. So it took a lot of engineering.

So I want to I want to I want to get him on and we'll see what exactly what he did for sure. So that's a template for others, you know, since our and now he's still having issues with the LN URL because there's no wallet available in Italy that does it, if I understand. Correct. Yes. Yeah. That kind of sucks. Yeah. Well, did you see that block is rolling out lightning payments to all their square terminals? Why does it not? Why does it not surprise me? All their square point of sale terminals.

I think I said this would happen. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's inevitable. Everybody wants this. Everybody wants this. They all want the cheap way to send it. Everyone's you know, Bitcoin is interesting now. Everyone's everyone's on board with it. You know, it's it's it's inevitable. It's going to happen. It's beautiful. I mean, this WhatsApp group of all things, I needed that in my life. I already feel sorry for you and the WhatsApp group.

I don't know how I got invited, you know, because what's I really have WhatsApp just for my European friends and my daughter and my family, because no one there uses SMS text messaging. It's all WhatsApp. And it's the podcast discourse hub. And dude, it's like it should be renamed to podcast, industrial complex. Backroom headquarters, backroom, backroom, backroom, back channel. And it seems like just looking at the you know, and I pipe in from time to time saying you guys suck.

You know, I just jump in there, you know, you know, good. You don't appreciate me. You know, stuff like that. Yeah. There's Adam again to set the watch. They're like, you know, podcasting 2.0 is no marketing. It's no good. It's just a bunch of people running around with ideas and running with scissors. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I have to remind people, hey, we set up the index. Everything else came to us.

We didn't set Dave that at any point we set out to, hey, man, let's market new podcasting. Did we ever do that? No, no. We just decided that, hey, people are interested and we just picked up the ball. So when we kind of get accused of not doing it right, I'm like, huh? What did we not do right this time? Anyway, and so maybe I misinterpreted, but I just need to go in there once in a while, say you guys are no good. But they're all talking about HLS. This is this is really sparked.

Everyone is all about HLS. They're all trying to figure out, can we do video? And I just want to say once again, why don't waste your time? It's really it's I just I think it's a waste of time. I really do. I, you know, I know so many people who have started. Video podcasts on RSS and it just doesn't work. I mean, it works. Technically it works, but people are not going there. They want that's their audio experience. I'm just going to say it.

You know, yeah, a podcast is anything as an enclosure. And I completely agree with that. But from a market perspective, do a podcast. And if you want to have video, just throw it on YouTube. You get what you get. You know, it's like it's it's a waste of time. Joe Rogan, he started with audio. He still does audio. Audio is still the main driver. He only gets like a million views a show now on YouTube. It's not that much. I'm sure there's another million over there on Spotify.

And, you know, this no one all the people I've analyzed and looked at, they rarely even watch the whole show. They're looking at the shorts, they're looking at the clips, they're looking at the edits, you know, people pull out the best parts. That's the YouTube thing. Just give into it. That's YouTube. Just let it go already. And if I hear Rob Greenlee one more time say, well, the market is driving us this way and your podcasting is video. No, it's not. It's just not.

People still love their audio experience. Nothing has really changed in that regard. Other than very insidious, deceptive marketing by Google. That's really all it is. They've just started to call everything a podcast and they label their videos. Well, you were a podcast and put this in the podcast channel. It's a farce. It's a farce. I can understand. I understand the desire. You know, because the desire here is we don't want to be eaten by YouTube and Spotify now doing video.

We don't we don't we don't want those guys to eat us. We want to be able to at least stay on par with what they are able to do. And we know we can deliver video. And we know now that. You know, now that we now that the industry as as broadly speaking. Meaning the hosting companies and the apps have had some real success with podcasting, you know, 2.0 features, transcripts, you know, pod rolls, you know, the these sort of new ideas make you think, OK, well, we can.

We can actually move the industry ourself. We don't just have to wait for Apple anymore. And so when you have the combination of that, you say, OK, I don't want to have my lunch eaten by this video by these video platforms. I know we can deliver video and I see that we have the protocols in place to be able to do it. We just all need to agree to do it. I see that this all makes sense to. You know, this all makes sense. The the question, I think that is just not answerable.

I think Todd thinks he knows the answer to it. Todd's saying that it's just going to cost too much money. Yes. Well, there's that. And I think the buzzsprout guys think the same, don't they? Have you talked to them about it? I have not. No, I don't. I haven't heard anything from them. So but the so that, you know, the issue the issue that nobody's I don't think we're going to be able to answer because nobody is actually honest with the numbers.

Yes, it's it's very possible that that like we said before, that YouTube either does not make money, either does not make a profit or if they do is very small. And that means that they're really all this bandwidth and all this infrastructure that they've invested in. Is not. Like if you tried to even do a fraction of that, it would just kill you in costs, crush you, it would crush you.

So the one thing that I noticed this week about Spotify, that story about Spotify laying off, you know, they laid off like another. Oh, I didn't I didn't hear about I didn't hear about that. They laid off more people in their podcast division. Yeah. Yeah. They're just they continue to shed everybody out of their podcast division and the ringer. So those two things got cuts. But sort of attached to that story was this other story about. Two thirds of their user base are free users.

Yeah. And so that means their ad support, the only way those free users are paying Spotify, anything is through ads. Right. It's the only way they can make money off of a free user is with advertising. So two thirds of their users. Are free users as supported, but that two thirds only makes up 10 percent of their revenue. Wow. And I've been saying this for it feels like three years now. I think it's very obvious that at scale. Advertising cannot pay the bills of a platform.

No. You have to have paying subscribers. You have to have people that you can bill every month. And so if if 66 percent of their users are free ad supported and that only accounts for 10 percent of their revenue. Yeah. That means the other 90 percent is coming from their paid subscribers. So you you have to think that YouTube is doing similar math.

I heard I heard on Accidental Tech podcast this past week that I heard one of the hosts there just, you know, bitching endlessly about the amount of of advertise advertisements in YouTube videos now. And he's and he's right. I mean, you're getting in that you're getting if it's a 20 minute video, you may get four mid-roll ads. Well, I mean, so just to reiterate what we talked about last week, YouTube also has boxes at the edge everywhere. You know, they have storage all over the place.

You know, you can't just serve this from from from Cloudflare anymore. You know, they they they are inside your network. They have I mean, they learned from Netflix and Netflix learned from them. So there's a lot excuse me, a lot of that going on. But still, if I so YouTube TV, which I have, which I enjoy very much, I love the quad view. Excuse me. So I have the news quad news quad, which is Fox, CNN, MSNBC and BBC. They turn it off after X number of hours. They're like still watching.

Boom. Stops. Yeah. And the other day they hit it. They hit it from me. It wasn't there. And I had to go online. It's like, you know, well, sometimes you just take it away. So you can't find it because it's too expensive for them. Yeah. You know, it's not lost on me. But if they're piling ads into into every video, they're doing it. They're yes, they're trying to extract as much ad revenue as they can from all these free users, which which does not pay the bills. But it's a double.

They're also doing it to irritate you enough to make to make you buy a subscription. Yeah, exactly. So I just think that that is an app. I'm again, just like last week. I'm not saying don't do it. If people want to try it and they think the math will work, give it a shot. I'm not going to be the guy that just poops on an idea. But but I do think that it's that it is. Instructive.

To see what the big platforms are doing and glean from that, that it's maybe not even mathematically possible for them to do, because all if you're a hosting company, you know, you have you have subscribe, you know, your subscribers are the podcasters, but then everybody and but that's only a fraction of your essential what you might call, quote unquote, customer base. You've got tons of free customers, which are the people downloading your your bandwidth.

And those, you know, that's going to be. And it's just an unknown quantity. I just I don't know. Well, for me, it's just going to be hard. It's just such a trap. It's like they've set this trap and everybody's talking about it incessantly. There's not a it's every conversation is it's like Bitcoin conference, you know, stable coins, stable coins, stable coin podcasting is video, video, video, video. The conference is what's up with video?

No. I wish we could just go back and say podcasting is audio only. You're done. And in fact, I could say that, but it doesn't matter if you can't get it in your podcast where you get your podcast, you can't get it. It's no good. But you're the podfather. Declare it. I'm going to have to make a declaration. So I saw it with with Pastor Jimmy and this. And so he now he answers to a higher authority. And so he gets his he doesn't need to hear it from me. But so he got way into YouTube video.

He was he's he's done now one hundred and one episodes of his podcast, living up in a down world. And I set him up. I taught him how to do it. I set up his rig, everything. He's great at it. He's he's great voice. He and his wife. I love listening to them. It's a great show. And so they really got into carnivore and they were watching carnivore YouTubers. And carnivore diet, carnivore diet. Yeah. And, you know, and then there's there's pastors.

So they're finding all these and they're finding lots of pastors and stuff on YouTube. And so they decide got to do video to get to get the word, the gospel out, got to do video. And I say, you know. There's a lot that comes along with that. And it doesn't matter. So then the church has cameras, everything. So they set it up and they're going and the results are. Bad, the video looks great, the studio is great, but the views is not is not there. I say, well, you've got to play the YouTube game.

You've got to have a dedicated person who is cutting up bits, doing shorts. Your your tiles, your your preview tiles have to have the face. Amazing. Look what's happening. Check it out. And and he couldn't bring himself to do it. And so this experiment lasted for about six months. And I think just last week he said, you know, I hate it. I hate I hate the YouTube algo game. I can't bring myself to do it. And so he says, I'm stopping. I'm just not doing it anymore. I don't care.

And I said, good for you. And he has a pain in the butt. It's it's a record, you know. Well, and he has the infrastructure. He has a you know, he has the church media director was doing it all for him. But, you know, you know, but but a while ago I didn't have pants on. And now, like, you can't do that when you're not on video. Well, there are big benefits to having no video, that's for sure. Yes. You know, and so I saw the loop and he's an adult, you know, he's an adult man.

He's like, no, I'm not going to do this. This is this is crazy. I know what it leads to. It leads to you have to do more. You got to do more. You got to feed the system. You got to feed the algorithm. And it is the podcast industrial complex at all.

Who are pushing this because the only thing they need is advertising money and the advertisers, of course, stupidly are all like, well, I got good good data over here and there is everyone says you're podcasting his video or Joe Rogan and Megyn Kelly. And they are running after the money. And I just think it's a mistake. I can't I don't know any other way to say it. Don't worry about it. Just do your podcast. It's going to be fine. You know, through through all and we've been through this loop.

It was 2008 YouTube came along. I got to be you got to be video video. Then Juiced came along, Juiced. Remember Juiced? I've I've heard of Juiced. I don't remember them. The guys who created Skype created Juiced, J -O-O-S-T, which I would say sounds Dutch. It is Yoast, Yoast. Exactly. And all the V.C. were like, oh, you got it. We need a Juiced. Juiced is the future. You know, same people who said the Segway is the future of cities. We'll all travel differently. Clubhouse.

No. So I've seen the loop. And by the way, I fell for it myself. We changed from pod show to Mevio and did video. It was a horrible experience. You just you create as much content as you can, stick it with ads everywhere. It's it's just it doesn't it's not the whole concept. And it doesn't have to be that. You know, not everyone deserves to make money in podcasting. Well, what's what's cool is it seems like. It seems like podcasting is developing its own. Quote, unquote, algorithm.

Now with with Podroll. Yes. Yeah, I agree. You know, yeah. Pocketcast rolled out support for Podroll. Yeah. And it's it's a really like it's it's very cool. And so, you know, as soon as and this is just like we talked about with Apple. If you support something and you announce it. Then it generates usage. Yes. Surprise. Amazing how that works. It generates usage.

Yes. So now now when you know, now you have podcasters who are, oh, I can put I can put suggested podcasts into my feed and it will show up in the apps as recommendations. Now, as this snowball begins to roll downhill, podcasting, open podcasting will be able will begin to develop its own algorithm based on real recommendations by real human beings. And that's a that's a big deal. Having a decentralized sort of algorithm. By the way, I was listening to Buzzcast in a butt cast.

How many times have I said, but this is the first time I've heard it and and responded to it. But I said it like two weeks ago. I said, but yeah, yeah. Hold on a second. They're going to take their money back. I need to register that domain name. Let me see if it's like, yeah, yeah. I'm waiting for the PayPal. Buzzsprout canceled their donation. But we need we got chastised. We got chastised. Hold on. Hold on a second. Yeah. But cast. You know, it's already gone. Somebody's got podcast.

Well, you never know. Let me check now. Boo. Boo. Yeah. You know, it's it's Kevin and Tom. They have they have it already. So we got chastised. Yeah, we got chastised for not having buzzcast in the pod, in our pod role. Oh, well, let me change that right away. OK, let me see. Show info. Hold on a second. I'll take care of it right now. People buzzcast. Let me see if but no, no, but cast. Let me see. Let me see if one cast is in the in the database.

But I bet you there is a butt cast and probably on anchor. But hold on a second. But cast. But cast. Oh, I know there's a butt. Oh, yeah. There's one. We have a cast. No, there's no. We have the fishing report with Jeremy. But the butt metal blast cast. But metal blast cast. Is that a genre? I don't know. And the butt fumble fantasy cast. OK, how about. No, I just put a do a search on podcast index for butt cast. Well, I'm doing it in sovereign feeds, which pulls the. I'm getting the butt cast.

There you go. The butt cast, the butt cast with Caitlin and Joe. And there's two butt casts. Oh, nice. OK, we're not putting that in. We're putting in buzz. Buzzcast buzz. Of course, SoundCloud. OK, of course, it's either anchor or SoundCloud. Oh, there's an anchor. OK, one from anchor, one from SoundCloud. All right. We got our bases covered. OK, the buzz cast has been added. You're done. OK. All right, good.

So. This led me sort of down a different trail that connected up with some other line of thought that I've had since Sam posted some stuff after last week's board meeting. And. You mean Sam saying I already invented all that you suck for not telling everyone I did it already? Well, the thing that he's right about and I have. I've thought about it before is we just need there's a few things here. We need to be better about it. We do need to be better about attribution.

You know, we in some sense, like I don't even I don't even remember which tags that I have proposed that have gotten into the namespace. I literally don't remember which ones they are. It's I have a tendency to just kind of like, OK, that's done and let's move on to the next thing. I'm with you on that. And I'm not saying that that's the right way to be. I'm just saying that that's my tendency. And and I also I've heard from multiple people that. That sort of attribution of.

Attribution is just more important than I'm giving it enough. I'm not giving it enough mental weight. Attribution to someone who created something, you mean? Yeah, like a tag or or some technology or something like that, I think. I think we needed to be better about attributing the sources of where these ideas came from to the people they came from. So like like Alex, you know, I mean, Alex is is responsible for alternate enclosure, which is going to enable HLS if that takes off.

I mean, he wrote the whole spec. Well, I mean, his his name is not on it on the podcast namespace. Same thing with the location tag. James James Cridland wrote the location tag spec. His you won't know that he wrote that unless you go back and find it in the dark corners of GitHub discussions. And so I feel like there needs to be some sort of formal attribution. In the namespace documentation. That that gives credit to the person or persons as applicable that that.

Sort of invented or came up with or shepherded these things to their final form. Kevin Finn over at Buzzsprout, he's the one that came up with pod roll. Well, the only thing I just have to interject is that over time, nobody cares because I have not invented podcasting. You can look anywhere you want, and unless you go to Dave Weiner's blog and search back to 2002 to 2001, actually, you will not know the genesis of podcasting. Well, we it was Adam Carolla, Adam Carolla.

Everyone's the pod father now, which I'm all fine with that. And by the way, for me, all glory to God, man, I was just a vehicle. So I'm OK with it. But I'm just saying attribution over time. To me, Dave Weiner created blogging. Believe me, you can't find that fact anywhere. I just I think that it's I think that it's more important than I realized that it was. OK. And I mean, I agree with what you're saying. Over time, people forget.

But partially because partially people forget stuff because it's not written down anywhere. You know, it's only on some ancient, you know, scripting dot com URL that barely exists anymore. And you have to go hunting for the story that covered it or something like that. But but when the podcast namespace is literally linked off of Apple's namespace documentation or Apple's podcaster documentation, that's a pretty direct link. And I don't think that would get lost.

And I think it would really, you know, I think it would help because we also this is a bigger discussion because we need. So I was reading through Spurlock's SPC. Oh, yeah. Document and realizing that we don't have a place for some of this stuff. And what I mean is like L4O2. Yeah. OK, good point. The documentation for L4O2. Sam invented that with Russell. Come on. Everybody knows Sam and Russell. Yes. Sam and Russell worked together to put that in place.

And there is there are documents, but I think they're like in my email. I think they're even where they belong. I don't think they're publicly in a GitHub. And I would love to host those. In the in the podcast namespace repo. And and then, you know, but then be able to if we don't host the core documentation itself, we could at least link over to it. What I'm trying to say is when there's two things going on here, I think we need to be better about attribution.

And that'll be a project that I'm that I'm fine with. Yes, Daniel, you're right. Podcasting2.org. That is you're right. That that can be the home. And for for these things and they can link out to the appropriate repos as necessary, you're right. And so. I will take on the project of trying to go back and put the attribution in place for these things and all the nasty emails that that incurs because I've forgot somebody. But but I'm cool with that.

We'll just fix them as a as the mistakes are seen. And then maybe Dan, maybe Daniel. If you have documentation for a thing like Russell and Sam do for L4O2. If y'all would be willing to link that up with Daniel on podcasting2.org. I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, the SPC documentation can go there. The ULID documentation can flow there. There's a lot of these sort of like.

There's a lot of these things that are not namespace that need a place to live because they're too spread out. And I know. Put it in the LLM. That's what we need. We need an LLM for attribution. There there needs to be a podcast podcasting2 .0 LLM. Where you can just ask it anything about podcasting2.0. CSB jump on that. So. If if we like, I know with the new version of L4O2. I've seen the emails go back and forth, Russell and. Russell and Sam and Oscar.

And I think WDOS, they're all sort of working together to to update what they're doing to make sure that what they call secure RSS, which is built on L4O2, to make sure that that all works together so that Fountain and TrueFans and Pod2 and they all are going to play nice together. Well, once that process is settled and we have some documentation, hey, man, let's stick it up on podcasting2.org. And be sure and link it back to the attribution.

Give it the attribution that that is, you know, is needed. But I mean, I'll. I want to. Be better about that. Because people, you know, people's we had, I kind of just thought it was covered through, you know, we have the team repo that lists everybody who's a contributor to podcasting2.0. But it just doesn't. I don't know, it just doesn't go far enough. It doesn't link to the correct stuff. It just doesn't. It's not adequate.

And. I mean, it's important for people to know where these ideas came from. And I accept Sam's chastisement with humility and grace. Okay. Well, that's cool. I was going to say something else now, but I don't know how we got off on that tangent. I know what I was going to say. Okay. Back to what we're talking about, about the namespace. The namespace is ubiquitous and how we're building our own kind of distributed algorithm with PodRoll. Ah, yes.

If the same amount of energy went into trying to figure out how to make video work on podcasting, if every hosting company put the same amount, not and everyone has different levels. If everyone put the same amount of effort, energy, time and resources, and that also means cash, into supporting more 2.0 features. I think that would be more beneficial than trying to catch up to YouTube, which is just impossible to do.

And let's just stick to what we do well and do it even better and force people, force the legacy apps into it if they don't want to. People will leave. Every single show I say, you got to have a modern podcast app. Go to podcastapps.com. The minute we go live, you'll be alerted. You click on it. Your app tells you we're live. You can't listen live. Within 90 seconds of me posting the show, you'll get the show. Every single show I say this. And why do I say it?

Because I don't want to hear the bitching and moaning for people. I don't. I didn't upload to Apple. So these types of things, transcripts. Okay. So Apple finally did transcripts, you know, but chapters and, you know, and Apple does chapters, they do it in their ID3 tags, whatever. We have a specific chapters functionality, which is cool. And you can do cool stuff with it. And most of the hosting companies now automatically generate chapters for you. And some put images in for you.

There's a lot of stuff that's going on. Let's focus on that. Let's focus on what we know works, what we know, what we develop, what is good. And we're wasting, we're spinning our wheels like hamster in the YouTube wheel. Trying to figure out, can we do video? Because that'll save podcasting. Podcasting is under no threat whatsoever. At all. The podcast industrial complex is under threat. I don't care. That's different. We've come up with so many different ideas for them. They're not interested.

They just want to do video and that's not going to solve it. It's going to be a sad day when everyone implements video and everyone's pushing video and no one's watching because they're going to YouTube for that. That's just it. YouTube has a TV app, has a Roku app. People are watching it there. You can't compete with something and probably financially it's not worth it. Man, I'm so reluctant. I mean, yeah, look, I understand what you're saying and you're not wrong.

Like, I just, I don't, if, if they, if they can make it work for, for a few shows, you know, I mean, it would be cool. I mean, it would be really neat. Neat. That's what I want to be. I'm the inventor of neat. I invented something neato. That's right. I don't want to say like, I don't, I just, I don't want to say, I just don't want to be the Debbie Downer on it, but, but I'm just so skeptical that it's going to like, work out. No, and I think you're right.

There's a lot of, there could be a lot of wasted effort here. I see the, I see the cycles. I see the cycles come by every day on the, on this group and everybody's in there. You'd be glad you're not, but it's, it's a huge group. And, and you know, I'm this, let me see, when was the first post? August 17th, 2024. And they're still talking about video. Yeah. You know, that that's just what it is. You know, it's like, no, it's going to take, it's going to take app support too. Well, of course.

And there's app support, but I'm just saying. Not for HLS. Okay. Good point. But, but the bottom line is just don't fight it. Don't fight it. You know, the people, people will come back from, from their, from their YouTube misery. They'll come back and like, I just want to do a wherever you get your podcast. You know, all the, all the, all the successful people, Tucker and Megan and Joe and Theo and Tony and all these people. Yeah. They have stuff on YouTube.

They have guests, you know, and yeah, that's sometimes interesting to watch, but no one's, you know, it's just like, come on. They all do audio as a, as a companion and audio is where I think people still gravitate towards because you can do other things and you're not going to be Theo Vaughn. You're not going to be Joe Rogan. It's going to be a podcaster. Be happy. I think I would encourage the, I think I would encourage the process to go like this. Here we go.

Podsage comes in and sets everything straight. We'll make us all feel better. No, this is why there's two of us, Dave. I appreciate you doing this. I would try, I would try to put it, get some idea ahead of time of which apps support HLS natively already. Cause I, I think, I think the NA the app support is going to be the harder lift than the hosting company support.

The hosting company support is going to involve accepting the video upload, transcoding it into multiple formats, chunking it out into object storage behind a CDN. That's, that's stuff that they, that hosting companies are already pretty good at, you know, that that's not rocket science. So I think that they would have an easier time doing that than the podcast apps would have implementing it into their apps.

Because if the app doesn't already support video, it's going to be, there's going to be a lot of UI that has to happen. So it would be nice to know ahead of time, which apps already have, we know which ones support video, but which ones might, there might be some already that support HLS just by virtue of the libraries they're using. So you may get some of it for free.

So it would be nice to have some sample feeds out there where you stick HLS as an, into the normal enclosure tag and just do some samples, run through every podcast app you can find and see if any of them play it. And then you just take notes about which ones do and which ones don't. Then you can go back and say, okay, these, these apps support video, this, these subset, the subset of those apps support, support HLS.

And then you can say, okay, you could reach out to those apps and say, can you also support the HLS in the alternate enclosure tag so that we can have a unified feed? Because that's the, that's the dual strategy here. The dual strategy that Justin from Transistor is talking about is not just HLS video support. It's, it's HLS as an alternate enclosure to an existing audio podcast so that the app can intelligently switch back and forth depending on whether you're watching or listening.

That's what they want. And so I wouldn't like, oh, Nathan just linked up a podcast in the boardroom of a sample feed with HLS in the main enclosure. So that would be something like that would be a good thing to do. Say Pocket Cast, Podcast Guru and more already handle HLS. Yeah. Do a survey of some sample feeds, find out which pod, which podcast apps already support it. And then, you know, where you're starting from. And we know that Pocket Cast and Podcast Guru, they're down with the dark side.

They know they're, they're good to go on 2.0 features. They're, they've proven that they're going to push forward. So those guys would be easy to work with. I mean, you know, Jason and Alex over there are great over at Podcast Guru and the folks over at Pocket Cast are great. So you could definitely, you know, work with them to get them to support the alternate enclosure version of HLS and then just like run some samples. Get your process down first.

Then you have a template to work with to sort of like show the other apps what to do. That's the way I would go about it. You know, there's so many devices and things have been invented over time that just wind up being used differently than you ever expected. And, you know, I know people don't want to hear it. So I'm just giving another voice against what you said is, of course, perfectly reasonable.

YouTube was initially developed for baby videos, for, you know, broadcasting yourself, for showing your home movies, for, you know, that's what it was. It was like an expanded version of Justin TV. It's a very good example. I don't even know if Twitch originally was designed to be for gamers just to watch people play games. I have a feeling it wasn't.

You know, Percy Spencer, you know, was working on radar technology at Raytheon and wound up creating the microwave, you know, which we now basically only use for popcorn. You know, so there's all these things and a podcast app, which is universally known, it's still the most powerful term in broadcast media wherever you get your podcasts.

And I think it's just as hard to roll out video to all podcast apps as it is going to be to roll out to all hosting companies as it is going to be, you know, just to consume it that way. And I just want to warn people that we have so many other wins we can get right away by making it more attractive. I mean, the funding tag, can we just get the funding tag front and center with a big ass button, support this, like Sam Sethi is absolutely right.

You click it on TrueFans, and I hope TrueFans comes out with an app soon, and you can hit it with your Apple Pay or your Google Pay. These are things that matter. These are things that actually matter, and then you circumvent the Patreon fees. There's so many things that can be done. I just feel it's a waste of energy. Yeah, I heard James talking about how he built a Stripe interface, but nobody uses it, and they still just use Patreon. I think... No, it was worse. It was worse.

He said, buy me a coffee, leave me a tip. Yeah, that would be worse to you. I think that's a... I mean, no agenda uses Stripe interface and, you know, I mean, and checks and everything else. That's all about the message, I think. I don't... That's not really about the tech. Absolutely. If you say, buy me a coffee, guess what you're going to get? A coffee. If you say, leave me a tip, guess what you're going to get? A tip. You know, people don't want to do the work. They're afraid to ask.

Ask and thou shalt receive. It's just a fact. But if you tell them to go to, you know, if you tell them to go to podnews.net slash donate, and if you tell them that over and over and over again, eventually they're just going to... That's where they're going to go. I think it's about the ask, really. And that facilitates the ask, you know, the funding tag. That's what I meant. So we don't even use the... Well, the funding tag finally is starting to show up, and I promote it a little bit.

We just tell people to go to our donation page and support us. Here's yesterday's rundown. Commodore Archduke, $1,770. Blake Luther, $1,000. Preston Isaacson, $222.22. Matthew Martell, $210.60. This is serious money. Now, is that through PayPal? Which ones? Is it PayPal, Stripe? Those are all... The Commodore Archduke is Stripe. The rest are PayPal. So we probably have about 20% using Stripe. It's on the same page. You can choose which one you use. And you go to knowledgeanddonations.com.

We're not asking you to send a coffee. That's the difference. So how many times can I say it? And you've got to close the loop. Thank you, Commodore Archduke. Let me read your note. I really love you. Appreciate it. That's the system. You know, people are like, well, you know, you've been doing this since the beginning. You're the podfather. You're all about the raspberry today. I am. I am because I'm disturbed by the direction that people go in. I'm like, you're just going to bump into a wall.

So someone's got to be the guy saying, no, it's not going to work. And you have the right to be disturbed because you've not only invented podcasting, but you also have been down this road with You've got the history to back it up. I did the network. I did the video. I did all of that. And what blew it out of the water? The content. Serial. That took it all right back. And, you know, when everyone got all jitty and jack during COVID, everyone was doing a podcast.

All the podcast companies were humming. We got new customers signing up every single day. And then Spotify blew a billion dollars, blew a billion dollars, and it didn't work for them. And all they've done since then is fire people. Get a clue. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Get a clue. You know, video superstars, you know, high end productions. No, that's not even what people want. They want to hear authentic voices. They don't want to hear all your ums and ahs edited out.

They just want to hear someone talking about something they care about. They want to eavesdrop on a conversation. That's it. It's very simple. Don't try to professionalize everything, which is what video always, always demands. Too much polish. Yeah. I love raw. I love hearing. I love hearing unprofessional voices. It's great. You know, I listen to all kinds of crap audio. I listen to podcasts with crap audio all the time. It's not the worst. It doesn't hurt me.

Well, I listen, I watch a lot of YouTube and I enjoy YouTube, but it's not podcasting. No. Podcasting is different. Yes. Dave, let's thank some people. I've kept you way too long. I apologize. That is my fault. All right. All good. All good. Sam Sethi is riding his bicycle. He is. We need to load the horn. I don't, I don't have a horn. What horn do you like? The bicycle or the bell, the bicycle bell. I mean, the ching ching. Maybe I would, do I have a horn? I've got, uh, I got the booty horn.

Got that one. I've got, uh, let's see. I've got these horns. I've got those horns. No, that's not a bike. That's not a good horn. Is it? No, no, no, no, no. Uh, anyway, Sam is cycling from Montreux to Luzon through the vineyards, tasting wine and listening to the pod father and the sage hashtag heaven. And he sent us a triple sevens for that from, uh, true fans, of course. And also a thousand sats. If we get secure RSS, right, we can replace Patreon and other paywalls, including Spotify SOA.

I'm interviewing Oscar on power about what it is, how to implement it and how it will work. Good. That's on his, um, what is that? Um, is it the true fans, the creator podcast, what is it called? Um, true fans, creator. Yeah. He's, he's doing a, uh, he's doing, I didn't even know. Oh, it's a, it's a pretty good show. Um, let me see. True. Oh, I get it. Let me see. It's a, um, creators from true fans. Is that yes. Creators from true fans. There it is. Uh, Sam and Claire wait Brown.

So they haven't done this in late April. Okay. Yeah. Although they haven't done one since May 19th while Sam's on vacation. So, okay. It's hard. It's hard to do a weekly show. Trust me. Uh, 55 55 from Chad F coming in from Castamatic. And he said, this is a row of swans. First lit boardroom booster Graham from Castamatic. All right. Nice. Very nice. Uh, source D 1701. I'm waiting for Adam's new gig as a vibe coding Twitch influencer.

And I'm waiting to see the subsequent vibe coded GitHub repo in the interim. Dude, you would be frightened. You would be frightened. That's a good point though. You need to vibe code a GitHub. You need to vibe code this up into GitHub. I don't think so. Polish as the polish, the ending, the ending triumph. I don't know, man. It's, it's scary code. Uh, I don't know if I'm ever going to get it completed. That's a, it, what I have works. It's not how I want it to work.

And every single LLM that I said, change only this, it goes right in and says, Oh, I don't need to use your feed parser. You don't need that user agent. You don't need any of that. Now let me change your liquid soap script. It can be much better. I just won't listen to me. Um, let me see. We have a two to three. That's a show number. A boost. Thank you very much from user one, eight, three, four, two, zero, two, two, five, zero three, eight, two, two, six on fountain.

Thank you for your vibing in the, in the refactoring folks. Yes, indeed. And I think that's it. We didn't get a lot of that. I think we were so enthralling today that everyone was just listening. They didn't think about boosting. Yeah. Or that's also called boring. I don't know that we were boring. Maybe it's possible. I got a lot off my chest. I've been known to be boring before it's, it's in my DNA. I never get bored of hearing your talks pod stage.

Uh, what are we, uh, what are we, uh, you would have thought that after all those, I would have been prepared. You'd be ready. Kevin, you're ready to rock. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Bay, $5. Thank you, Kevin. I got a better system here. Uh, Cameron Rose, $25. Thank you, Cameron. Uh, Chad Pharaoh, Chad F thank you brother. $20 and 22 cents. Uh, Mark Graham. Oh yeah. Yeah. Mark Graham. Uh, $1. Thank you, Mark. Uh, new media. That's Martin Lindisco. $1 pod page. That's Brendan over there.

$25 Oscar, Mary, $200. Woo. I think he needs a little big baller for that. Thank you, Oscar. And congrats on the launch. Uh, Joseph Morocco, $5. And that's it. We got some boost though. We've got, let me scroll all the way down here. We got whoa, booster Graham, one, two, three, four from a Chris, you know, through fountain. He says in response to salty crayons, boost a reminder that if a podcasting app or to add NWC, you'd be able to connect Nostra wallet connect.

You'd be able to connect to at least 15 different wallets, some custodial, some non-custodial, plenty that adhere to keep it simple. Stupid. You don't need to interact with Nostra to connect to a wallet via Nostra connect. The solution exists. Say again, the solution exists. No, no. The piece before that, just all of it. No, I just want to hear what was said about Nostra wallet connect. I want to hear it. I'm sorry. Oh, I'd already archived. Let's see. Uh, let me go back.

You don't need to interact with Nostra to connect to a wallet by a Nostra wallet. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's just poorly named. Really? It is poorly named. Yeah. Uh, one, two, three, four from CLAAS on Linux through fountain. He says, is what Dave is saying about a straight MP4 file. True. Of course it's true. I don't know what it was, but of course it was true. Absolutely. Yes. That it needs to always load everything before it can play.

I put an MP4 file on object storage and both the player in my web app and the default video element started playing it immediately. And you would, and you would see HTTP 206 returned, uh, partial data or whatever it's called. And you can see a little buffer line too, for what part it had loaded already. That's it depends on the server and the client. Most historically, most of the podcast apps have just downloaded first downloaded the whole thing.

Yeah. If you have an, if you have a very intelligent client and your object storage provider supports range requests, then yes, I can see it's possible to get pieces of the file in a streaming fashion. But, um, like historically speaking, most of the client of the podcast apps, they do grab the whole thing, but you know, maybe that's changed. Maybe that'll change over time. Uh, comic strip blogger, wait, we're already at the delimiter. No, this is, this is a different CSB.

This is a 1515 from CSB to fountain. He says, oops, my pod is called field recording by CSB field, not fired. Okay. Oh, that was a, Oh, he followed up on something. I guess. Did we say something wrong? Did we say, did we say it wrong? I'm sorry. Um, let's see. Oh, user. Let's see. June 1st is user nine, four, zero one, eight, seven, three, four, eight, eight, eight, three, two, eight. Change that since 3,333 sets through fountain.

He says, and the podcaster said unto the serpent, we may use any RSS host, but streaming video to YouTube will make our audio suck. And we'll be distracted by scammers in the live chat. And the serpent sayeth unto the podcaster, surely thy audio shall not suck right on Chris last that's Chris over at Jupiter. Okay. Chris 5,000 sass through fountain. He says, appreciation boosts. Sometimes you just feel the need. He's been knocking it out of the park, man, with this week in Bitcoin.

I got to boost them again. He's really knocking it out of the park. He's got too many podcasts. I got a prune. That's, I mean, that's the podcast where I'm always delighted when it comes out and, you know, and every, the past, let's say he's done two shows in the past two weeks, but it was like three weeks, no show. And it was, it was, it hurt me. I was listening to like others. I'm going to listen to this. I don't want to listen to this. I want to hear this week in Bitcoin, man.

I kept up with Chris through Coder radio and then he left that show. So I don't, I've not been able to keep up with him properly since. Well, it's a great, it's a great podcast. Yeah. I'll need, I need to go and trim down so that it pops up in my feed quicker. Bruce, the ugly quacking duck, 22, 22 real ducks, the pod verse trying out pod verse. I keep hearing stable coin in my dreams. Help me, please. LOL 73s. 73s kilo five alpha, Charlie, Charlie coming at you.

Again, Bruce, the ugly quacking duck with another 22, 22 through podcast guru. He says things always switch around when the dust settles. I hope podcasting will still remain fun and an important part of us all. I guarantee it. Now everybody share a hug, share a secret and hug. Wait, don't we need to have, don't we need to play that jingle? What is it? Everyone share a secret. Everyone hug and share a secret. This is it. Oh, there's no winning.

We don't like to foster a competitive atmosphere, but we laugh a lot. Now everyone hug and share a secret. That's right. Call me strip blogger. There he is. The delimiter. 14 445 through fountain. He says, howdy fellow Bitcoiners, Adam and Dave, like yourself, me, myself, and many in your audience are Bitcoiners. So for the to Satoshi's sake, y'all please subscribe to the podcast. Bitcoin and dot, dot, dot.

Just go to Bitcoin, www.bitcoinandshow.com or search for Bitcoin and dot, dot, dot in any podcast app. It's a cool podcast about Bitcoin. Very interesting and chillaxing for us Bitcoiners. Yo, CSB PS, follow me on X at CSB. Amazingly, just three letters. C S B. I reciprocate follows. I think I've been on that podcast. You've been on CS on the Bitcoin and podcast. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think so. I have like a lot of podcasts, brother. I can't keep them track. I, well, I've been holding off.

I have 75 podcasts or interview requests. Oh Lord. Yeah. And I'm holding off much. Yeah. And then the minute our app is out out of beta, I'm going to start contacting everybody. Oh, I just found your email. Yeah. I'd love to come on the show. Gee, I was cleaning up my email. I was cleaning up my email and I saw that you said, well, yeah, I'd love to do this now to have something to talk about. That's a, that's a classic. Oh, I see that I missed this email.

I saw it 12 times and ignored it because I didn't have time. I hit a for archive and now I'm ready. Yes, I'm ready for you now. That's it. That's our group. Oh, thank you all so much. We appreciate the support. All this support goes directly into the podcast index.org funds to ensure that we keep this system rolling because that's, uh, that's really the community right there is, uh, is supporting the servers, supporting everything working.

And we just appreciate it because that, uh, I mean, I, I love that we set this up and I love that it is community, uh, supported by, uh, by podcast hosts, podcasters, podcast apps, and listeners like you go get a tote bag. There's no tote bag involved. Go to podcast index. Of course we love the boost. You can boost us. You can, uh, the, the sats all go into our node, uh, which still is, I think, uh, one of the lowest fee nodes. There's no fee essentially.

I think we only, there's no beginning fee. You know, just try to give people liquidity. If you need any, let me know, hit me up. Um, and it's just sitting there, just trying to route stuff around. Uh, and I think, uh, it's, I got, I haven't even looked at it for so long. I rarely hope it's still running. No, I would get, you would get alerts if it wasn't running. And Graham is always so kind. You know, he's like, Oh, you guys got a big node. We got an update.

Uh, I'll do it at 3 a.m. for you guys. You know, just love that guy. He, and he, are we up today? Did we, did he, did he upgrade us recently? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's, uh, it's actually a two, 2 a .m. Upgraded us, make sure to got all back up and running, uh, sent me a, a ping when I had to unlock the node. The guy never sleeps. No, he does not sleep. No, him and Russell from pod too. Neither one of them sleep. Who says it's not the same guy? I don't know. It's very possible.

I mean, I post something on pod on podcast index dot social and Russell does a favorite on it. And I know it's like three o'clock in the morning and he's just like, he's up. He's never sleep, bro. Uh, so for your Fiat fund coupons, we accept that. Of course at PayPal, go to podcast index .org down at the bottom, scroll down. There's a red donate button. That's how you can support us any amount. We appreciate it all. And, uh, thank you, uh, boardroom for being here. Oh, steam bear.

We'll be next on the live stream. Uh, I forget to promo him all the time. Uh, we'll bring in his crazy music, uh, and we'll be doing that all live and lit with, uh, with real time, uh, uh, remote items, uh, splits and everything. And now available on customatic brother Dave. Uh, are you going into the woods again this weekend? What are you doing? No woods, no, no woods, no woods. Uh, any home, uh, improvement projects finishing our closet organizer in our newly spiffy closet. Yeah. Let me guess.

You mean Melissa's closet where you have one small side? Yes. Yeah. That's how it works. I have one hanging rack and a cubby. Thank you very much for doing what we see you next week, right here for podcasting. They're cool. You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 visit podcast index.org for more information. I don't have any pants on right now.