Episode 218: Vibe Coding

Podcasting 2.0 for April 24th, 2025, episode

218, Vibe Coding.

Hello, everybody, we are back. It's been a hot minute. It is time once again for Podcasting 2 .0. This is the show we talk all about podcasting, what has been, what will be, and what will always be. In fact, we are the only boardroom that gives it to you straight, all the numbers, all the facts, no EBITDA. I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country, and in Alabama, the man whose MVP works bug-free out of the box.

Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one, the only Mr. Dave Jones. Don't say that out loud. It's always true. It's always true. No, it's always true. Your MVPs always work out of the box, bug-free. Bug-free. That'll be the day. It's true. I mean, it may not work as intended, but it's bug-free. There's a difference. There's a difference, you see.

If you want to talk about unintended, the toot I just made about the show, about going live on episodes.fm, I'm sure I screwed this up somehow again because this is the easiest thing possible, and I mess it up every single time. Then you just copy the URL and then paste it. That's what I did. That's what I did this time, and for some reason it says in the open graph card that comes up as the preview, it says undefined. It says listen live to undefined. I'm podcasting to it.

I see it too, undefined. Well, that's actually not your fault. I think it's just, no, this is the thing I've noticed with episodes.fm. It comes up as undefined on live shows. For some reason it says. Yeah, there you go. Your link was right, but it says undefined, and I'm not sure why. Nathan said that's my fault. Yes! Woo! Yes! I told you. Your MVP post was bug-free. When Nathan says it's my fault, what that means is I nailed it. You did. You nailed it. I did my part. I did my part.

That Control-C, Control-V action? Yeah, yeah. Was super perfect. Do you remember when the first iPhone didn't even have that? I do. You could not copy paste? It got lampooned. Yeah, and everybody was like, how could they ever do that? I mean, talk about an MVP. The most basic computer function in the world, they launched without it. It was, you know, I got the like. And somehow they're worth, you know, all the money in the whole world. So I got my Light Phone 3. Speaking of copy paste.

You know, I wanted it. I lived the Light Phone 1 lifestyle, you know, the Light Phone 2 lifestyle for a while. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted the Light Phone 3 so bad, but it was significantly more expensive than the Light Phone 2. And so I just, man, I just couldn't pull the trigger. Well, I mean, you're basically paying for a GoFundMe, you know, because you had to pre -order. And, you know, I like those guys a lot. I like their concept. I like what they're doing.

So I'm like, yeah, it's expensive because the thing was 500 bucks. And I was like, that's a lot for a phone that does very little. But I think they nailed it. Let me just put it this way. They've almost nailed it. This thing is fantastic. And I've gotten to the point where it's a joy to use for what it does. Where the Light Phone 2, although I like that really small form factor, so this is a little bit bigger. I mean, it's a useful tool.

It's not just I have this thing because I don't want to use a phone. It's like I have this thing because I really only need a phone, a calendar, a camera, an alarm, podcasts, directions, some notes, a hotspot. You know, I think that's about it. They got music. I don't use music. Notes is handy. But they've just nailed it. And the, you know, because it's a little bigger now. I mean, typing on it, although you can also use voice to text. It is really, really nice.

You know, it'll come down in price. It'll come down in price. It's if I, here's the problem. If I didn't have this in this, I'm glad I did the light phone to experiment. Yeah. Because it told me where my actual pain points are. And where were they for you? Okay. So like, if you look at my, I've actually noticed this recently. If you look at my, the iPhone is good about, it'll tell you what your usage is. Like it, it actually tells you a lot.

It'll say, you know, you're for the past week, you've averaged this number of hours of usage per day. And mine's actually, it's always been fairly low, but the last three, four months, it's been like very low. I mean like a barely over an hour a day. It's like, and that's all the pickups, all the stuff. It was, it's like an hour 15, something like that average a day. And I just, I really just have gotten myself out of the phone habit a lot. Oh, that's good. Congratulations. Yeah. Thanks.

But the thing is, um, and so that tells that, that's what made me think I could use the light phone too. I'm like, well, I just don't use the phone in a heavy way already. But then the thing that hurt the most was, um, when, when the, when, if I'm trying, if I'm trying to get something for work, like for my day job, there's like, it just all falls apart. You know, you can't do anything. Oh no. You can't do anything. There's no MFA. There's no one-time, uh, one-time password MFA.

There's no, um, uh, link, uh, there's no QR code scanning. No. There's no way to, um, to get a link to something to sign in. It's just like all that stuff. Is it's just not, it just doesn't work. Right. And I can't like, I just can't use it. That means I have to carry two phones because if you're, if you're in any corporate environment or not, I mean, a one-time password is a must. You just have to have it. I mean, it's your lifestyle.

Your alternative lifestyle is just not conducive to this because you're, you're a dude named Ben. So you, you've got the, uh, you know, you've got the inherent responsibility of always being there for the actual emergency. Uh, whereas, I mean, if I just have my, uh, graphene OS phone, I mean, you know, I, I look at it and it's like, Oh, there's a message here. There's a message there. There's WhatsApp from Europe.

There's a signal message from the various, you know, stuff that we're doing in groups. But if I'm just going out to dinner or from going out to walk the dog or, you know, just to go to the store, I don't need anything more and I, and that's just fortunate for my life. Uh, and it's, and by the way, the camera's pretty decent. It has a flashlight. Talk about a critical, uh, a critical piece. Yeah. You know, the podcast player, obviously I wish it could do value for value.

Uh, I wish it showed images, but the main thing, the two main things that are improvements is just the form factor. So it's easier to type, uh, than the, than the light phone too was. And, uh, it does MMS, you know, it shows images that are on the light phone to the images will go to your email. So I just want to see what image someone posts. And you know, if someone hearts a message on an iPhone or whatever, and then it shows up as so-and-so hearted the iPhone hearted this message.

So at least I can participate in groups anyway. So that, that textual representation of a, of a, like an emoji or an, or an action where it says, you know, someone liked or someone hearted or would it, is that part of the, is that part of the new spec? Was it our, uh, our, uh, RCS RCS? Is that part of RCS? Well, it worked. So if I, I use an RCS client on my graphene OS and then that actually works quite well, integrates well with iPhones.

And it's very much a, you know, you still show up as a green bubble. So people know you're a loser. Um, but MMS, you know, so it, it just sends the code like someone hearted this, you know, or someone did a thumbs up on this. So it doesn't actually show up as a thumbs up on the, on the message. So, but so, but so I can get by very well. Then it's responsive. It's just great.

I don't want to talk too much about the phone, but I was just, just want to throw that at you because I know that you were interested. Well, uh, BitPunk in the, in the boardroom said, I've been liking the Hibby M3 M300 as a non-phone music player lately. It's basically an Android without cell and has a three and a half millimeter jack. This is actually pretty interesting. So I guess if you can put apps on it, you can get your podcast.

That's exactly what I don't want because then I'll put another app on, Oh, let me put the Coinbase app on it. Oh, let me have this app. Let me, that before you know it, I'm operating on a stupidly small slow phone for all the stuff I should do on my regular phone.

But it's not a phone. No, but apps, I mean, who calls me? Nobody calls me. I mean, I have a T-Mobile digits on my, on my graphene OS. So I, I in effect don't need to, it's a phone. Now the minute you put that on there, it does text message and it does calling just over wifi. Yeah. That's see, this, this is the evolution that I went through with with the light phone to experiment. I went, I was like, I'm not using the phone much anyway.

I want, I want to just kind of get rid of it altogether out of my life. And so I got the, got the light phone for the first two to three weeks. It was like wonderful. And then I was like, and then I started to feel the pain points. And so I brought my iPhone back into my life. And so then I had two phones. I had, I had the iPhone which would stay like it actually stayed at work. It was at the office. I just left it at my desk all the time.

And then I had the light phone I would carry around with me. My thought was while I'm at work, then I'll need MFA and that kind of thing. And then like what happened was two times in the same day, I was not at the office and I had to log in remotely. And I was like, I can't do this. I can't. Anyway, it was bad. So here's a just switching gears is an

interesting statistic for you. Okay. The current podcasting base, I guess this is

for the United States, $2.4 billion and everybody in the boardroom is broke. It's amazing. Is this the podcast industrial base? Yes. Everybody who was working on improving this, who was building apps, who was, you know, the whole index project we're broke, but somewhere there's $2.4 billion floating around out of, how does that work? 400,000 active feeds. I'm amazed. I'm amazed how it works. These numbers bull crap is how it works. These numbers kill me. Where is all that?

It's like, do you, do people know how much $2.4 billion is? That's $2,400,000,000. I actually have, I think I have a clip and I think Alex Gates sent this to me. I wonder if I actually clipped that. It was from what's the Scrooge McDuck. It was a Scrooge McDuck cartoon. I guess I didn't clip it. And, and he's talking to the kids and you know, as a Christmas tree filled with dollars and he says, how many dollars do you think is on their kids? That must be a billion dollars. Uncle Scrooge.

It's like, no, that's no more than a hundred, a billion dollars. If you stack the dollar bills up would circumvent the globe four times. That's how much a billion dollars is. So this would go around, this would go around 10 times. This is how much money this is. This is silliness. Kiwi bones says market cap is always fake. That's what this is. This is a market cap and those numbers are always baloney. It includes, you know, I heart radio.

And so I heart radio, they, you know, money's fungible for them. Like, well, yeah, a big part of that advertising buy went to our podcasting group. Of course. Sure. You can just attribute it however you want. And who knows if podcasts are in there and you know, YouTube, so-called YouTube podcasts. I don't know. But as long as everybody's happy, it's good. And you know, advertisers think, Oh, this is, I got to get in here. It's at least 1% of the entire online marketing, marketing money.

But how much of that is YouTube money too? Yeah. We don't know. So I do like this. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at SPC from Spurlock.

I have not looked at it at all. No. It's too bad. I know what it is, but this is good. You can explain it to me. Well, I can't, but I was completely counting on you to be able to explain all the ins and outs of it, but I've followed along and I think it's a really good idea. Um, because you know, it, it maintains the, uh, you know, the anonymity of the user.

It's not spying on users and it would be such a, a lift to the, you know, to the podcast apps that are, you know, part of our group and who, you know, who are just trying to build good things.

If we can find a way to have the apps benefit as well, then that's the piece that is missing still because the apps in essence participate in a way to make advertise tracking better by giving, you know, some statistics on some real listening statistics that go beyond what you can get from Apple and Spotify. Um, and it may have to be implemented at the host level. I'm not sure. Um, but that's, that's really where it all breaks down.

It's like, how do we get the, that, you know, that's why value, I like value for value so much because the apps can participate in the value flow and we, and

we kind of fix that. Although it seems incredibly broken. A lot of the development is now moved towards integrating Noster and I've honestly, I've lost track, um, of exactly what's happening and you know, there's such a purist map. With what? What do you mean? You've lost track of with what? Well, I mean, we basically have, you know, if you don't have Albi hub, you're not participating even though it's set up, it's set up to, you know, to where it works fine with strike.

Um, you know, I, I think that I think it's still 95% of all transactions, not amounts, but transactions come from a pod, uh, from a fountain, fountain, some of the bigger numbers actually still pod versus still, and you know, bigger transactions come from pod versus at least what I'm seeing.

Um, uh, but if, you know, there, honestly, I think there's such a purist maximalist movement, um, not really wanting to integrate any KYC based apps or anything that, uh, that reeks of, you know, something that's not completely independent that it's hurt because the people who are participating basically either have a Noster set up. So they're zapping in or, you know, you have an Albi hub and that, and that's just a nonstarter for, for most people to get into it.

So, um, um, I mean, I, I still use it. I still receive sats. I'm still super happy, but you know, I saw the, they had another concert, a live concert, and then the income was just not great. Now I think they did 900,000 sats for the whole evening. It probably from the same 50 people. So it just, it still hasn't really taken off the way it could or maybe should. And there's a lot of lightning development though. I think breeze just released some, some new, I have to look it up.

I think they released some, let me see, is it breeze dot technology? I think, I believe they released some new, um, missed, is it misty breeze? Yeah. Uh, misty breeze is the simplest self custodial app for sending and receiving Bitcoin payments powered by breeze SDK. Notice the app demonstrates the SDK is full capability showcases best practices. They have something that is kind of like a snap on you could add into your app right away. I just don't know if, um, if it does what we need it to do.

Cause I haven't looked at it yet, but there's just a lot of lightning development happening, which is good. So maybe, maybe more and more will be integrated over time. It just, it seems like, it seems like the, the, the lightning, the lightning stuff all comes down to having an app like strike real. I mean, if, if key send is dead, then having an app like strike is that's what you're going to end up with.

I mean, um, you, you gotta have something that you can like, I mean, even if you saw, even if you had, even if Albie came back today, custodial Albie, even if that came back today, you would still have this friction of onboarding. Yeah. And the beauty of the strike experience is that it makes the onboarding effortless. Like you really don't need, you don't, it gets rid of that, but then you, but you have to tell somebody to go get strike.

Yeah. Um, and so, which isn't that different from what people have to do already. I mean, it's like, it's like having a credit card or having anything. I mean, if you're going to pay with somebody, you have to have a payment mechanism in place. And for this, that, that, that payment mechanism, well, I think it'd be strike. It fell down. The whole thing fell apart, uh, where the Ellen address or Ellen URL pay that works. It works perfectly fine. I mean, I get payments on, uh, on my, on my strike.

Well, all the time, cause I only have it on this show, but I get it all the time. Works great. I get partial messages. If it's a booster gram, it fell apart on agreement over, okay, how do we separate, separate out the TLV record that was so beautifully integrated in key send. And that's where it fell apart. Uh, a fountain came up with a solution was not adopted by everybody as far as I can tell. So it, but it still works. So, you know, we'll, we'll see, we'll see where it goes.

I mean, it still works. Um, I just, I don't know. Let's, I mean, let's, let's be honest. Albie would still be custodial if it was not for, uh, government regulation scaring everybody to death. That's what happened. Yep. It was, it was us regulations, freaking everybody out so that async, uh, wallet pulled out of the U S I'll be switched from custodial to non custodial. I mean, everybody panicked and rolled up, you know, rolled up the, uh, the sidewalks and left.

And so that, I mean, that's really what happened. There's not like the, we could, if the, if the regulations were, were such, if there was clarity there, um, we, we might actually have, you know, Hey, and that's the same reason that, uh, uh, uh, Tim K that's the same reason that he's, that he closed up a LN pay is because he was worried about the regulations, you know, he, and the responsibility of, of being a custodial service. Right. It's a big responsibility there.

If there's, you know, if there's regulatory clarity at some point that having a hosted a custodial service for something like this, the, the Albie, the Albie custodial model, the LN pay custodial model, that's a model that can work. Well, the bottom line, you can make money that way is what I mean. Oh yeah. Well, no, the bottom line is that it works really well for the communities that want to use it. Fountain works really. And, and, you know, I use podcast guru, pod verse works fine.

You have the web based apps. Um, I think what Sam is doing with a true fans, he totally understands what his

mission is. He's on mission to create, you know, a fan base place when, and you want to bring, you know, you don't want to say to your fans works on any podcast app. You want to say, go to true fans. And when it has an app, get the true fans app and you'll be able to support me, support my, my art, my podcast, my music, whatever by merch. I think he's, he's figured that he's made the onboarding very easy for his system and his system alone.

And, and that's, and, you know, and, and so for me, following in my general philosophy that nothing is going to be, um, adopted everywhere by all anymore forever in the future, or maybe very few things as the same goes with shows. You know, as long as you can get your community of a hundred or a thousand or 10,000 people to support you using a platform that adheres to what you need, you're going to be successful. It was just, we're not going to see the, Oh wow.

You know, this artist, you know, is on,

you know, is making a hundred thousand dollars a year from all these different apps that all are sending payments. I don't think that's going to happen anymore. I think what we were wanting at the beginning, what we, what we were set out for was a completely, um, deep, like a decentralized, not decentralized, but a non central point of, of authority system where anybody could just, uh, pick up a lot.

It could just spin up a node or a lightning wallet in some fashion and immediately start either send both sending and receiving payments without having to ask permission, without having to pay anybody. You just, if you could just hook into this ecosystem and join, you could join into the network.

But you know, what we've ended up with is a system where you're going to have to do something like fountain has done, which is build a backend through an approved provider in that, in their case Zebedee, you know, or, or strike or somebody you're, you're going to have to, as a podcast app, you can't just make a couple of API calls and be done.

You're going to have to make agreements and, and hook in with an existing financial entity in order to support a backend and then do some pretty extensive work to get a wallet integrated, which is what Sam has had to do. Yep. You know, Sam, Sam, Sam is similar to fountain in that he's had to do a whole lot of payment integration work with different financial entities to get the, all of his moving pieces to jive. And so that's just not, I think what we intended with this whole thing.

It doesn't mean it's, it doesn't mean it's a failure. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that like, you know, maybe there was some naivety about how aggressive regulations would be. I don't know, but I just think that there's not, it's not what, it's not what we thought we were going to get, but that doesn't mean, like I said, that doesn't mean that it's the end of the world. I mean, we can try to salvage what we can salvage that out of there. It's just, I don't know.

I'm kind of disappointed that we didn't get the original vision cause that, you know, that, I don't know, it's just so much more work. And so every time there's more, a more layer of work, there's a bigger barrier to entry. So instead of having, you know, instead of having 500 apps, we may just have, you know, a few, a handful of people that are willing to put the work in like, you know, like Sam, but it's not, it's not just that I'm going to say it. It started with, um, who are the music guys?

I'm spacing on it. Wavelake. It started with Wavelake, the incredible, um, what's the term I'm looking for? Aversion to Wavelake, a centralized service without a pure, you know, not having everybody have their own node. That's where it started to break. Yeah. This is the fact, you know, that I'm not playing anything from those guys. I mean, that childish behavior, in my opinion, that, uh, that broke a lot. And then it became a purist thing. Well, you've got to have your own node.

You've got to do it this way. You have to do it this way. New people would come in and the telegram groups and people would say, Oh no, you don't want any part of that. You got to do it this way. I saw it happen. Yeah, no, I did too. You're right. So it's okay. Cause it's what I'm not, I'm not mad. I'm not even disappointed. I love that, uh, that we have, uh, solutions in this that work.

I use it. I tell people to use these apps and if they can figure it out, then they're on board. They're in the club. Um, we'll see. We'll see where it lands, you know? And I, and I guarantee you that stable coin is going to come stable coin is going to be part of the global payment system. It's, you can just see it happening. I mean, this is a big part of what, uh, I think it'll be called the Mar-a-Lago accords.

Um, but, but it's already been said by the president and by the treasury secretary, stable coin is going to be the way that the U S dollar maintains its, uh, dominance as the global reserve currency. So it'll be pegged to the dollar and it will be, I think it'll be fractionalized and you'll be able to use it. And I can tell you right now that there will be a huge, we're not going to use stable coin ever. Bitcoin's the only one.

I'm telling you right now, I'll tell you right now, I'll tell you right now. That will totally happen. Yeah. Even though it would fulfill a lot of the dream and stable coin works over the lightning network today. Well, I mean, stable coin is essentially a, a stable coin is basically a digital U S treasury bond. Yeah, exactly.

There's some other stuff mixed in there with it, but it is, it is primarily, I mean the, the stable coin guys hold something like more than most countries put together in treasury bonds. Yeah. It's like 75% of short term U S treasury bonds are owned by, by I think short term would be three years or less by tether. No, I think it's 90 days. I think they've been, they have a 90 days treasury bond or a T bill or something. Ultra short, ultra short.

Yeah. That, I mean that is just a, I mean that's outrageous. That's, that's unbelievable. And so it's, it's, you know, the reason the U S treasury is the, is it's not the dollar. Um, this, the world's reserve currency, it's the treasury bond, correct? It's the treasuries because those are essentially guaranteed. Those are guaranteed. You're going to get paid. Yep. You're, there's no, you know, there, there's no chance that you're not getting your money back.

So those become, those have become the way that that's the backstop for everything. And so it's a very short step from buying directly buying U S treasuries to buying stable coin. There's very, there's really not much difference there. So it's an easy transition to make because people are already used to it. Um, so yeah, I think you're right. I think that's exactly what's going to happen. The question is what, you know, what's the distribution, what's the sort of like a connection there?

Is it, is it some sort of digital wallet? I mean like how, because you, because treasuries are normally bought and sold, you know, traded by money brokers and big banks. And so that's something that the normal person doesn't usually have access to. So what does that look like? I don't know. You know, I don't think I'm going to be, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I don't think I'll be sending, sending you a stable coin over my Bitcoin wallet, but I don't know. Maybe I will.

Well, you can send me money anytime you want. I'll take, I'll take, I'll take Chinese money. I mean, if you want, if Dave Jones wants to send me money, I'll take it. I have a, I have a standing, I have a standing, uh, you know, uh, policy to never refuse to take money when someone wants to give it to me. Exactly. Exactly. I have a similar policy. Hey, this is a term that I've been

hearing. I want to ask you about, have you heard of this term vibe coding? Yeah. What is, what is vibe coding? I think that's like no code stuff where you're just, uh, you're like using LLMs and stuff like that. And just having things pieced together, which you, you're a vibe coder. Yes. That's, this is what I was thinking. I have been vibe coding for the past couple of days. Yes. I mean, you're like, you're like a coder now. It's this week in liquid soap, everybody.

Yeah. Yay. So it's very interesting. A couple of things came together at the same time. So James, uh, who has been the, um,

the champion behind the location tag from its inception, I believe, even, um, and, uh, and now the location tag has multiple options. It can be, uh, the location of what this podcast is about or where it's originating from. Um, in our project in Godcaster, it's really turned into something amazing, something really beautiful.

And it flows right into something else that we've discussed, which is this concept of what is, well, of making a radio stream out of podcasts. And, and that's what I've been working on and not just working on it. You've been coding. I've been vibe coding. I've been vibe. You vibe coded something that works.

Yeah. So, um, let me see how I can best approach this topic because it, it brings up a whole bunch of questions, but in essence, uh, we're right now working with the, with the dude named Paul on a Godcaster app. So the Godcaster, if you haven't seen it to go to hellofred.fm, you can see it. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a platform.

It's a management system where you can create a player with podcasts that, that you want your audience to listen to and you determine, you know, what goes where and what, what order things are in. And you can add a live stream or multiple live streams actually. And here's the cool part. You can then follow that station in a podcast app and in a modern podcast app, you also get the live streams.

So all of a sudden you have a radio station that used to just have like a listen, listen, live button on their website. Now they have all the content that they have on their broadcast. Um, uh, their over the air broadcast is now in a lineup on their website. So you can listen to it on demand, but the live stream is also there, but you can just take the station with you because we provide them with a feed of everything they've put in their player.

And now you can listen to, you know, KHCB Houston in your car on your favorite app. If it's a modern podcast app, then you get the live stream. And you can also listen to the most recent episode of everything that they have. So it's a whole new way. Uh, it's we're re-imagining radio, I would say. And a lot of these stations are really starting to get it. So, um, I thought it would be an

interesting experiment because we're not going to have an app where you open up the app and based upon geo location, it shows you the stations that are closest to you, the Godcaster stations who have a player. And, um, and so I thought, you know, not everybody has, so there's also podcast networks who are using this and churches and they don't have a live stream. So, okay.

So at first I thought, you know, I'm going to give them a, like a hello Fred live stream and all these folders they can drop stuff into. And I'm like, yep, that's going to happen. And that works. But the first step is to get them into, get them comfortable with the idea of these podcasts that I put in my player automatically create a live stream that has an interstitial in between the shows. So you could, you know, you can put a little file in there.

Like you're listening to, you know, uh, uh, Christ church in, um, in New Zealand and boom, it goes into the next program. And so as we've been experimenting with this and, and I think the app will probably be out sometime around June. Um, it's really interesting because it gives you, even though you're just listening to some podcasts that are aligned and I never, never thought this would work. I never thought it would work.

Um, in fact on hellofred.fm, I now have a live stream called all, all the shows. And so you, you tap on that and you drop right into the middle of a show and it's like, it's mesmerizing. It truly is what the, and this is what the Tom Webster serendipity of push button radio. I just, I search around, Oh, here's another station. Click. I go into it. Then I start hearing a show. I drop into something. It can be, you know, a news show can be a sermon. It can be, you know, a talk show.

There's, there's so much, and we're focusing only on one type of community, which is faith based broadcasting. It really, it really gives you an experience and particularly to know that, okay, I'm listening to this right now, but I really want to hear the whole show or want to hear it from the beginning. And it's one tap away cause I can see it right there in my interface. This is the show that's playing right now.

It totally changes the concept of radio and, and, and there's something about it that is really exciting. I did not expect that. I always thought, you know, who wants to listen to just a stream of, of podcasts that are lined up. But when you don't know what it is, and even my own, my own shows, I think I have six or seven shows on hello Fred.

If I just hit that, that all the shows live stream and I pop in, it's probably something I wouldn't have started listening to from the very beginning in the first place. Cause like, ah, I don't feel like listening to Matt long show today. But when you just hit that, it's like, Oh, there's something really magical about it. In fact, when you guys were joking around like, Hey, it sounds a lot like radio when you use the location tag to find, you know, to find a podcast.

Now, if you find a stream of podcasts, it really is a new kind of radio and it's, and it feels good. I don't know if you've had any time to kind of experiment around with it, but it feels good. I haven't, I haven't experimented with it mostly because I was writing the code for, for the, for the API for D yeah. For DNP to, you know, to, uh, to do the, to do the, the location stuff. And, um, I've had my head in that, which, which that, that has been in. It's what's funny.

I'm glad that you, I'm glad to do this kind of stuff because I find myself routinely, uh, out of my comfort zone because it's things I've not done before. Uh, and it's kind of stuff like you, you kind of know how it works, but it's different when you really do it. Yeah. And, um, so one of the things that, you know, part of this has been from, from the beginning we've put low, we've put radios, uh, the, the, the players, the Godcaster

players, you can, you can create a player. And from the beginning it's had a location aspect to it, but it's not been specific enough to be what we needed for this. Yeah. It's not long to latitude stuff. Yes. And so like it was perfect timing for James's blog post that he wrote the other day, uh, sort of re, uh, bringing this back to, to the front, because I was about to dive into images tag and finish that thing up.

And then I'll, he didn't, then your location ideas came up and then his blog post. And I'm like, yeah, we just need to roll this blog. We need to roll this location thing and get this thing finished. Cause I actually published his changes to the namespace today, not right before the show. So, um, so the new additions are in there. And then I still have to update the document that backs it sort of the, uh, um, uh, like a full explainer.

So I'm just going to take his language and weave that into the existing document to make, to make the new stuff apparent. But there's so much going on here. I mean, there's like, you know, what you're describing is a really, I would call it like a synthetic live stream. It's, it's not, uh, it's not live in the sense of, um, like, like radio is live these days.

Radio is all DJs cutting, uh, you know, voice tracking, uh, at nine in the morning and then going to lunch, you know, it's, it sounds live, but none, none of it's almost, none of it's live anymore, but it, but it's, it's linear. It's linear. And so when you, when you described this, yeah, linear. Okay. Let's say they'll say that it's not linear. It's, um, it's synthetic linear.

It's like when you described this the other day, uh, when we were, when we were talking, um, my, my first thought was this is perfect for podcast networks. Um, because yes, they immediate, they're not having a live stream, having a, having a real live stream means do means having to run some extra infrastructure. Right. Even if it's, even if it's small, it's a hurdle.

And so, but if you already have all this stuff there and you can just sort of like just hit go, you know, you give yourself a location and then you just hit go. Well, so this is, this is exactly what I've been coding and it came. So we have a new customer, her name is Jenny Lee Samuel, and she has a network of podcasts called imagine media.

And, and so what she's done is she started a little kind of school of podcasting and she's taught all of these different, mainly young people, which I like a lot about it. Um, how to, how to do, how to create podcasts, you know, how to select a host, the whole, you know, Dave Jackson type vibe. And so she, she really wanted a way to build that into a network. And we said, and, and she saw the God cast or something. We said, this sounds like something I could use. And we said, yeah, absolutely.

So we showed how it worked and she said, you know, cause if she knows about the live stream so you can put a radio station in there, you can do all kinds of different stuff. She said, well, couldn't have a live stream of all of my podcasts. And I'm like, Holy crap. Yes, of course you can. And, and so that's when I started to experiment now, by the way. So I've been using Manus dot AI, uh, to do this programming and so it initially came up with a great bunch. It has a config script.

Um, you know, it has a script where you start stop status log, you know, it's like with the switch, you know, so I can tell you if something's wrong and it worked out of the box, you know, it creates a mount point for the, for the RSS feed that you give it. And it fires it up and it works. And I'm like, this is fantastic.

Until I looked in the logs, I'm like, Oh man, it's skipping 70% of these, of the items in the RSS feed because it can't figure out what the MP3 file is because of, Oh man, what a mess. Millions of redirects question mark and tags after the MP3 is, is, and from some of the biggest hosting companies, I'm like, Oh man. And so I've been spent, I think I've spent the past 16 hours of vibe coding time feeding.

This is where vibe coding falls apart, by the way. Well, it's, it's, you know, and it's actually kind of fun because you know, it creates a script and then they get the errors. I copy the errors. I paste it into the, into this Manus interface. It goes, Oh no, I see what's wrong. Okay, hold on a second. And then it fixes it. Then something else breaks. And, and I, and then I'll say, do you remember now I have liquid soap version two dot one dot four. Yes, yes. I'll double check the documentation.

Then lo and behold, it does a bracket close wrong. Oh, I can see this. I did this wrong for your version of liquid soap. So you do get into these loops where at a certain point, you know, like, okay, let's start over. I'm going back to this script that actually worked and let's start again from here. So it's kind of like having a kindergartner who knows how to code, but has no attention span. You've got to bring it back to it.

And I know that if, if, if I, if I'd been working with you, we would have fixed this thing already. It would have been working. It would have been running, but you know, instead I'm spending lots of credits. I probably spent $75 in credits on, on these. Yeah. Okay. I love the kindergartner visual. It's like, Hey, okay, look, listen, Timmy, you son of a bitch. I know you know how to code, but pay attention to me. Look, look, stop eating animal crackers and just pay attention. You little bastard.

So, um, um, so, uh, no agenda millennial in the, in the boardroom says Adam's coming around to using AI. Well, no, because it's such a bad crutch. Again, if I, if it was Adam and Dave, we'd have this thing humming by now. Cause I've been, I've been working on this for a while and that's just, that's not

concurrent time that's over several days than just compute time. And you know, I had to upgrade to the $200 a month plan. And luckily you can buy more credits when you run out. And you know, from time to time, I was like, Oh, I'm sorry. The virtual machine crashed or this session is now too long. You have to start a new one. I'll inherit everything that I learned. I'm sorry. I can't, I can't store any more knowledge that we've learned from this project unless you delete some other ones.

The actual cost of this stuff is off the hook. Believe me, believe me, this is the introductory price. So for what AI is doing and versus what it costs and the amount of time that goes into it, I still think it's crap, but at least I can move forward and eventually I'm going to say, Dave, they got these scripts. It kind of works. Take a look at it. Ignore the Chinese characters in the code. Don't worry about it. It's all fine. Maybe we can figure out how to make this actually work.

It seems like I can't bring the project to completion. Well, I'm close. This is, um, but it is, it is Claude. I just, so, so no agenda millennial understands.

Manus itself is an element LLM, but it fires up an appropriate model for the tasks that you're doing. So it is using Claude and it's using others, but it's using Claude mainly for coding. So it's not like I'm using the wrong model. That's the whole point of, of Manus is it sits on top of everything else. I'm sorry, Dave, go ahead.

No, no, no. I mean, this is the same thing we see with all the with, with all these models is the degenerative models is that they, they all really allow you to get most, you know, most of the way to an idea that you can then hand off to somebody to finish it. You know, like when it comes to art, I mean, you, he's like, I want this logo. I can get, I can get something that's kind of like the thing I want. Then I can give it to an actual artist and have them actually make, make a

thing. And, and that's the same with code. I mean, you can, you know, you can't, you can say, Hey, Bill, build me. You can say, Hey, Claude, build me a, a Laravel app that does these things and it's going to build you something, but then like, but it's not ever going to be the exact thing that you want. It's just going to be kind of the thing you want. And so then you have to hand it off to somebody else to actually turn it into the thing you want.

Yeah. So I mean, I think that's just the pattern. And by the way, while vibe coding, I can see the hallucinations happening. Yeah. That's, that's the real gotcha. It took me a while. Like you're just making this up. Oh yes, you're right. I'm sorry. Here, let me fix these scripts. This time it'll really work. Did you see that thing? Did you see that thing that was posted?

I think it was, I think James may have boosted it or something on, on Mastodon about, Hey, you can just make, just make up, um, make up cliches and stuff like, uh, you know, you know, like two, two in the hand is worth one in the bush or whatever. You can say, Hey, LLM, uh, what does, um, you know, eating, eating bread sideways saves you a day of work. What does that phrase mean? And it'll just make up some bull crap. It's like, it's like, Oh, that means this and this and this.

Like, it's just, it's all, it's all, it's all goofball stuff under the hood. And like, and it would not, it would only take a little bit of tweaking. I was sitting here listening to you describe like your process and, um, it would only take a little bit of tweaking to introduce another, to introduce a little wrinkle where you intentionally make the model misunderstand just to get one or two more prompts out of you to use your credits more fat. That's very possible. That's very possible.

And I, by the way, everybody has, you're using the wrong one. Use cursor, use this, use that. It does great. You have to understand that liquid soap by itself is the messiest project that I've ever seen. And you go look at the, at the GitHub and there's, or there's all these different places and there's documentation and there's 18 versions that people are using. And you can just see the confusion in the model itself that it just doesn't know where to go, you know? And it just is like, Oh, okay.

I bumped up a wall there. I'm going to back out and do this. But anyway, very long, uh, fun conversation to

come back to. There's real, this live, the lit tag, there's one of the most exciting things in podcasting today. And, uh, just like we don't really know, we can't really define what a podcast is anymore because of the podcast industrial complex. I think the same holds true for radio. This is not radio. In fact, I'd think if, um, if you said to someone it's a live stream, they get it. You say it's radio. And what do you mean radio?

All kinds of, you get, you know, a radio disc jockey radio stations come to mind. But when you say live stream, it's much more clear. Oh, it's a live stream. What's it, what's it up? Oh, it's of these podcasts. Oh, cool. It's a live stream of podcasts. Got it. They get it right away. So I personally can't wait.

Once I get this thing rolling, I want, I hope, hopefully I can deploy this or have the guys over at no agenda stream use this to, you know, to manage the no agenda stream because you can still, you know, do your live cut ins and all that stuff. But then there's, you know, there, I think they're hacking liquid soap scripts manually for the lineup and it's, you know, cotton gin will say, I think this is the next show that's coming after no agenda. I'm not sure.

Which tells me that, you know, the manager, the management of it is so great. And you just throw this stuff in, there's a new episode, boom, it pops out, it plays, it works. It's really, it's a great experience and I can't wait because inadvertently or maybe because of who we are, the Godcaster app will be

under the hood. It's a podcast app. In fact, I think we've used some of the open source libraries from pod verse now. In fact, I'm sure we have under the hood. You're saying the Godcaster app on, on iOS and Android, the mobile app. Yeah. Which, which, you know, the hardest part of that was getting it to work on car play and work on Android auto. DNPs spent most of his time on that. Right. But it doesn't feel like a podcast app.

There's something completely different, but everything in it is a podcast or a stream of podcasts or in some cases an actual live radio stream, but it's a podcast app underneath, but it doesn't feel like that. It feels like, Hey, you know, it feels like radio. It does. It's like, Oh, there's this app and I can bop around and you can do all the same things you do with the, and you're like, I'm going to save this episode to a playlist.

But then when you, the push button part comes, when you hit the live tab, it's like, Oh, here's all these live stations that are near me or I can search further away. If I want to, you hit one, you drop right into something. You have no idea what it is. Although the metadata shows up, Oh, this is this show. This is what's playing. And then right there, it's like, Oh, there's the show. So I can listen to that later if I want to or I can just keep listening now. Another one will come up.

There's something good about this. Really. The main things we have to figure out is on the fly. We need to change metadata. We need to change the, the, the funding tag. Cause this is a big part of, of

the, of the community we're working in and we had funding. Yeah. We had such a big win the other day. Maybe we should explain that how important the funding tag is. Thank you. Pocket cash. Thank you. Pocket cash for, for surfacing that. What I'm so, so happy they did that. The funding tag is, I mean, it is almost as not quite, but it's almost as good as a boost.

It's so it could be may it, it could be made to be basically a boost with a little bit of, with a little bit of tweaking on a UI, you could take that funding tag and turn it into a boost button. Correct. Chad F believe me, we're going to send value back once we make any money off of this, but thanks for asking you to value back to podverse. Oh, to podverse. I'm a, I'm already a monthly subscriber to podverse. I'm a premium member already.

That's just Chad F. That's Chad F. That's how we, that's how he thinks. Now, man, we're ripping off podverse for our own gain. That's what we're doing here. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing here. So we have these radio stations and they, they have deals with the program people. It's very, it's a very antiquated system and it's all value for value based.

And so they'll run a program on the air and then someone will hear, Oh, donate to living on the edge and go to living on the edge.com and the good living on the edge.com. And then they're just going to, and there's a, there's a dropdown. Where did you hear about us? Well, of course, 95% of the people don't click that or don't tell you where they heard it or don't remember. And so the state, the program is supposed to send money back to the station.

Sometimes the state, the program buys airtime from the station and they'd like to know if it's, if it's, you know, if they're getting any donations from that money they're spending. So this has been a big problem because it's called attribution in their world, which is, you know, similar to attribution in other places. But so where did, where did this person come from?

And so now a very big program is starting to discover because we have, we surface the funding tag, but we send off a referring URL. They're finding out that they're getting donations from radio stations who have their program in the Godcaster player, but don't even have them on the air. And they're like, this is amazing. You know, so now there's all these, that's the, all because of the funding tag. Yup. The funding tag is doing magic. It's one of the oldest tags we have.

And, and I, and I'd love that. I'd love for podcast guru to surface that more clearly. Cause you know, to get to the funding tag, you have to go back to the program feed that is in the menu. You know, it's not like a big button that you push. Something that I get cast doing that was a big deal. They're a big app, huge. They have a, they have a large audience. Any, you know, I understand, you know, Marco, Marco has always said he wasn't, he wouldn't do it because of getting banned off the

app store. That argument doesn't make any sense to me. No, it doesn't make any sense to me because if you, you put it in the description, it shows up too. I mean, it doesn't make any difference. It's there. Well, I mean, if you're, you're an app developer, you put, you put the, you put it in there. If they reject it, you just take it out. Yeah. It's not the end of the world. I mean, you try, this is, this happens with all kinds of features as an app developer, as a mobile app developer.

Every time you put a feature in you, you never, you never know what the whims of app review are going to be. It countless times apps, app builds have are rejected every single day for completely arbitrary reasons. Sometimes the exact same app with the same functionality. Yes. And so you, you do, you just, you play the game, you go and you put, you know, you put the feature in, you think it's going to work. You don't think it's going to work. You put it in, it gets rejected.

We just, you roll the feature back out. Yeah. I don't understand. It's not like you're going to get, it's not like your developer account is going to get banned. You just get your, that build may get rejected. I just don't get, I just don't get it. I really don't. And it's such a huge, it's such a huge win. Yeah. You know, I mean, it really is. And make it big, make it big and use the, use the, the text option because we have that in the Godcaster. It's really cool.

So you show up on a curry and the keeper, the button changes to, uh, you know, support the show. You move it to, um, to another one. It says, uh, we'd love to receive your support all based on the text tag. I've never seen that. I've never seen the text tag change in a button for the, for, uh, for the value tag, except on our own stuff. And it's great. You know, it's another, it's another piece of content that you can, you can change.

I mean, I, I'd love for people to have to change their own button, make it a heart, make it a star, make it a, make it a pile of cash, whatever you want to make it. Now this, there is a lot to be done. I think the whole world is opening up when you start to view what is a podcast app. When you change your perception of what it is and build something that delivers an experience and don't call it a podcast, don't call it a podcast app. It just changes. I'm excited for everybody to see it.

Yeah. I think you, um, I think what you, what you end up doing is you just kind of, you create radio. I guess we always thought that radio was a thing, or maybe this is just me. I don't know. Um, we associate a radio station with a certain, with a certain consumption habit, but that is just sort of like a side of it's, it's just the way it happens. It wasn't necessarily by design.

It was just the only way that thing could work because you had linear terrestrial broadcast was the only thing that you had available to you at the beginning, you know, in the beginning of that thing. And so you're like, okay, well this is what rate you had linear broadcast over an air over the airwaves. You're like, yeah, well radio, radio, but radio doesn't actually have to be that. That it was only, it was only that because you didn't have any other way to just to do it.

But if you, but now you can have essentially a digital version of the same thing. Um, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I know this, this is sounds confusing, but I guess what I'm trying to say is we, we come to associate the, when you think of radio, you think of what you described dropping in to a, to a, to who knows where in the programming lineup. And then it just from there, it just picks up and carries off in a linear fashion. And that's what we think of as radio.

Um, well, so here, let me drop in right now on hellofred.fm to all the shows live Glover. All right. They worked together on this. And so less than two years later, now that feels like I just dropped into a radio stream to place, but it's really, um, Matt Long's, uh, the Matt Long show, which is a two next to the last in my lineup and it's just playing. And after that comes the wall builder show. And in between, you're going to hear the weather in seven, eight, six, two, four.

Well, you had the, you had this. So the reason you, that feels like radio using your words, the reason that instantly feels like radio is because it's the linear just is the linear playback model. And radio is the, that was all radio could do. Yeah. But then we entered this era where you, where you had, um, on demand and you could pick your own and you could time shift and pick what you wanted to listen to when, when you wanted to listen to it. Right.

So now you had this other possible way to consume media. What the trick and this, this, let's get

back to the trick is location. Radio is bound to location. Yes. Yes. That's, that's where the location tag and the lit tag come together. They are, they, they, they go together because when, when I see a location, Oh, this is Fredericksburg, Texas. And I pop, then I pop into the, to the stream. I'm now listening to Fredericksburg, Texas, not to the Matt Long Show. I'm listening to Fredericksburg, Texas. I don't know what the heck is going on. Let me, let me talk.

So let me talk about how James's location tag changes make this better. Um, so he had, he added a couple of, really this was a very pretty, pretty simple change. Uh, the first attribute, he added two attributes and then adjusted some constraints. The first attribute he added was a rail. So let's, so like Ariel short for relationship. Um, and your, your rail attribute can contain, uh, the value can be either creator or subject.

And so before, um, what we had was only what the, what the podcast was about. So your location tag was meant to define the, the location of the topic, not the location of the podcast creator. Now you can sub, you can specify that. You can have the location tag tell you which one it is. Are you tell, are you saying you, so rail equals subject means that the subject matter of the podcast is what this location tag is defining. So this thing is about something like the Eiffel tower.

And here's my, here's where I'm going to tell you the geo location coordinates of the Eiffel tower. Um, or you can have rail equal creator, which means no, I'm not, I'm not telling you anything about my content. I'm telling you where I am, where I am. Yes. And so that would be what something like a radio station would use. They're going to, they're going to have rail equals creator, uh, in their feed. And that's going to tell you what, where they are. Now they could also specify their subjects.

So then that's another change that, that he made, which is a constraint change, but it was before you could only have one location tag in a channel or an item. Now you can have multiple. So what you can, so now what you can say is, uh, this, you can have two location tags, for instance, in the channel, one of them specifies rel equals creator. And so you're saying, okay, I'm a radio station in Houston, Texas. And you have another location tag right below it, which is rel equals subject.

Um, and you say, okay, this, this podcast is about Houston, Texas. I'm going to, I'm going to paste the listen URL in the boardroom for your stream. No, the listen.godcaster.fm. Oh, okay. All right. So people can get an idea and just

type in Pennsylvania or Texas or, um, Alberta. I think we have Alberta in there. We don't have, you can type in the country too. You can say Canada, Alberta, and you can see it. And these are podcasts from Alberta. It's really cool that are, that are not, not even necessarily all the podcasts are from Alberta, but that's what Alberta is listening to. And Daniel beat me to it. He said, uh, you can add multiple subject locations.

So if you're, if your podcast is about, if this, if this particular episode is about, um, let's say it's about Houston, what his example, Houston, Dallas, and London, you just put

three tags in there. One's Houston, one's Dallas, one's London. Or what if it's about, um, you know, a, uh, what if it's about as a war, war two podcast, and it's about a sword B it was with a Utah beach, sword beach and Omaha beach D-Day in Omaha beach. Yeah. D-Day. It's a podcast about D-Day and episode about D-Day. It can have those three beach locations in there all with real equal subject.

And you could put the open street map coordinate bounding box in there that shows you exactly what the bound bounds of that location are not just the latitude longitude. And so then the L the other attribute he added was country. So you can just specify a country two letter country. Right. Right. Um, so the, uh, you can also now, I don't think he had this in his documentation, but I just did it because this needed to happen. You can also add it to a live item.

So it's not just an item or us or the channel. It's also a live item. So all this stuff is, you know, is makes this tag supercharged, you know, and where it can actually do the thing that we wanted it to do. Because as soon as we said, okay, this is about the subject matter. People got, it was always a little bit of friction because you would have people saying, yeah, but I want to, I want, you have people from France saying, but I want to listen to French podcasts.

I don't necessarily want to listen to podcasts about France. Right. I want to listen to podcasts from France. Yep. And so this will let, and we didn't have a way to do that. So this will let you do that now. So I think that, I think this is a crit, this is just a critically important change for this whole thing. And it allows you to, allows us to get further toward the thing that, that we're, we're wanting, which is, you know, what we had was it maps.fm. We had that

geolocated podcast thing. Yep. And let me, let me talk, this, this actually kind of a good side note here for, for, for all of the podcast namespace tags and features and all these things that we, that we think about developing, we think, we think we know what it's for. We think we know what it's for is one thing. And the other thing is we know we, it's sometimes we see it as some sort of just novelty.

Like, um, I think maps.fm, it was a cool project, but that's kind of all it was, was just cool. Right. And, and that's not enough. You know, it's not enough to just have something be a novelty or be you, you never, if, if all you do is go, Oh, that's cool. And then you never really engage with it again, then, then you've, you're not really hitting it. You're not hitting the, you're not getting the point. Right. So, and that's not a criticism of the developer.

That's just, I'm just saying that that like as, as a spec or some sort of thing that your feature you're trying to develop, you have to get beyond the sense of novelty to the, to the point where it becomes like an essential feature that you actually need. And I think in order for something to go beyond novelty, to become essential, it has to have a, it has to, the use case has to be demonstrated in a way where you see, okay, this thing you're trying to do could not be done in any other fashion.

And I want this thing. And this is the only way to do it. And I think this is a perfect example of that. We took a tag like the location tag that was just mostly a novelty. And now I think these changes make it essential because if you're going to have digital, like true digital radio, where, where, where a radio station, let's say a radio station wanted to drop their transmitter and just go digital only, how are they going to distribute?

How are they going to tell everybody where their radio station is? Right. When you're linear broadcast, when you're terrestrial broadcast, you don't have to tell them because everybody knows cause they just spin the dial until they hear you. And you know, the crazy thing is, is that no agenda stream has been running for some amazing amount, like 15 years. And the next piece, the next piece that is critical is the chat room. That's now you've got community.

Yeah. That, so there's three tags that go together. Chat, location, funding and chat. Location, lit, lit, location, chat, funding. Four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of like the, the, that's the, the, the, you know, the magic, the magic quad. The mag four, the mag four. Mag for lit location, funding and chat. Yeah. And even just that man, if we really started to surface the funding tag a lot more prevalently, because I was telling Dvorak about it on the show, maybe two weeks ago, he said, what?

So yeah, it's like a frictionless donation button. He says, that's great. How come I haven't heard of this? Well, first of all, you're you, but your email make sure you haven't blocked me on your email. It's a great, it's a really good feature. Cause you can put your Patreon in there and you can put your, you can put anything in there. You can put a link to your QR code for your, for your strike wallet. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

Like it wouldn't take much to turn that funding tag into a boost button at all. And the boost button would go, the boost button would become just what, it would become whatever is backing it. There you go. No value tag, but funding tag boost. Yeah. If you, if the, if the app detects that the funding tag specifies a lightning QR code, it can launch your wallet. Yeah. If, if it, if it detects that it's a PayPal link, it can launch the PayPal app. If it detects that it's, yeah.

Launch the PayPal app even better. Yeah. If it detects that it's an Apple pay link, it can just pull up the Apple pay dialogue. Like it just, there's, there's so many things that you could, you could really just like, what do you call it? Kind of obfuscate or, or whatever, you know, you could obfuscate what's behind it and just give the person what they need. It doesn't have to just be a link or whatever. Now, you know, now that may be getting into app store violations. Maybe.

That may be a step too far. Maybe. I don't know. Well, we find out, right? And we find out. Yeah. You, you try it and you find out, you get your hand slapped and you, you know. I'll tell you the funding for the value for value model through the funding tag, through donations is a multi multi-million dollar business in faith based programming. I mean, there, there are programmers who are making five, $6 million a year using just on donations. Now they have a very sophisticated database.

So if you've given to them, you're going to get an email. Hey, Jesus loves you. Do you still love us?

Yeah. I mean like there was, so the one that, so we have this, this referral code and what are they, what are they called? What's, what's the name of it? What's the, the big, the big guys, John, where am I spacing on it? Focus on the family. Oh, focus. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when you hit the donation button from a Godcaster, it goes to their donation page. And, and this is how cool it is when, when you don't complete it, so you fill out your information.

I don't even know how they did this, but I must've donated to him before. But, um, you know, I didn't, I didn't send an amount. It was just testing and like 40 minutes later I get an email and says, Hey, we know she didn't complete your donation. And it had the URL with the referral code in the email saying, you know, whenever you're ready to finish up this donation, just click this link. And it was our link here with the code and everything. It was amazing.

It's like, that's closing the loop, baby. That was really cool. I guarantee you that PayPal, those guys don't have any of that stuff. Non-religious podcasters could learn a lot from watching those guys. You mean secular, secular, secular, secular, heathens, the heathen pastors, the pagans, the pagan podcasters. Yeah, no, it's, it's alive and well. And by the way, I've, I've demoed value for value to some of those guys.

They're blown away, but they're like, okay, how do we teach our people how to do that? So well, that's where it all falls apart. And that, and that is the rub. That's a great question. We just tell them to spin up an Albi node. What's your problem? Yeah. Jesus loves Albi. Jesus was a node. Martha, what are you waiting on? Jesus was a maximalist. He read the book. Yeah. Anyway, so that was, that's my exciting news.

You know, I'm going to continue vibe coding and maybe by next board meeting, I'll have completed some scripts or I may, you know, at a certain point, I think I'm on version 39 of this thing. Oh, geez. Yeah. Yeah. And it comes up with cool names though. So when it, when it fixes the script, here, let me, I'll read this to you.

So it comes up with enhanced podcast, stream dot lick fixed config dot S H fixed mount point scripts, version two dot S H. This is like when somebody sends you a word document that they've, that they've gone through seven iterations on and it'll, it'll say instructions underscore final dash complete dash. The last one dash really, really dash. I promise. Oh, I got robust liquid soap script dot L I Q. And then he's sure final.

I love this final underscore fix dot S H. No, no, no. You're not too ambitious. Stop it. Stop. Stop it. You're Manus's biggest user. You may be their only user. It could be. I got the 3,900 free credits for being a happy camper. They're milking you for everything. I got for sure. I got emails. Keep him on the, keep him on the horn. We need him. I'm expecting a call from the CEO. Who's some innocuous Chinese dude. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support.

Yes. Soon price go up because of term tariff. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. More credit. 35, 35% more. Yeah. More credit. Oh man. That's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. And I'm, and I'm, I'm simultaneously enjoying and appreciating the pain that developers go through. But I really am. I really am. Yeah. It's amazing. Shadow Dom. Yeah. You've been shadow doming. That's a, that's a whole nother. So, so we have, you know, our embedded player doesn't work on one website.

It doesn't, you know, the controls go all wonky and this has been a CSS nightmare for eight months. And so, so we've all, everything's fixed. Everything's great. New customer comes in, everything breaks. And then, and then Dave rage quits and comes back a week later. I've rearchitected the whole thing. I'm doing shadow Dom now. Like we need two more weeks of testing. Like what did you do? Yeah, it's, it was good enough. The CSS bleed through is just such a, Oh, Oh, it's such a pain.

One, one little thing that you forgot to guardrail. And it's just like, it makes the whole thing look like garbage. It's just like, Oh, just so frustrating. Yeah. But yeah, it's the right way. The shadow Dom thing is the right way to do it. It just makes everything more complicated. Because it completely goes around CSS. Is that the idea? Or it sits on top of it all or? Well, the thing about our player is it has multiple parts to it. So you, when the player loads, well, you're

loading, you know, first of all, we're loading, we're loading our UI into somebody else's website, which that's problem number one. And by the way, some of these websites still have blink tags. Okay. Oh, it's, it's just, Oh, it's just a nightmare. And someone's high school kid, you know, I'll fix your website for your radio station, dad. Throw some CSS in there. Oh, it looks beautiful. First thing we're, you know, I'm, I'm using tailwind on for, for the style, for the styling.

And so the one thing you run into is if you have anything in your, any style, any class names, if you have any class names in your HTML that are at all like common words, something like a full or wide or, you know, anything like this, I feel like you're going to immediately have a clash with some other style on the page. Oh no. So you, so, you know, you have to use these bizarre names and M and sort of like put things under selectors that are hyper-specific and that mostly works.

But, um, but it's, it's not complete. It doesn't always work because you're always going to have, you're always going to end up with these weird things that, that, um, developed that plugins, especially WordPress plugins, they want to take over the whole joint and act like they're the only thing in the whole server. And, uh, so what, yeah, I'm laughing. It's so true. I own this place. I'm a plugin. It's like calm down plugin.

Um, so when, what the, what the Godcaster player does is it loads, it's a, it loads itself in the main UI first, but then it needs, it has two other sections. It has two other parts to it. It's got a footer audio bar that goes at the bottom that's anchored to the bottom of the viewport. And then it's, and that thing needs to have a Z index that's higher than every other content on the page. And then it's also got a couple of pop-up modals.

One is for fault to follow the player's feed in a, in a podcast app. And the other one is to share the, an episode to social media or whatever. So those need to be full screen models with a Z index at the, at the very front above everything else as well. So when the main UI loads now, what it does is it's is it sticks itself into a shadow DOM. Now, when I'm saying shadow DOM, I don't mean web components because I'm not using web components. We don't really need a whip.

We, this is not, that's not necessary for what we're doing because we're not having, this is just a single player on a single page. We don't, we're not repeating HTML over and over. Right? So we're not using web components. We're just using the shadow DOM portion. And so you create a, you create a shadow DOM node where the UI would have been. Then you stick the HTML into that shadow DOM node, and that hides it from the rest of the, of the browser DOM.

It is essentially invisible to everything in the normal document object model. That's good because then you can stick a style tag into that shadow DOM node as a child and it affects only your HTML and nothing else on the page. So now you've isolated your HTML from any styles up in the normal DOM. And you've also isolated your styles from screwing up anything on the hosting page.

The problem though, is that because we have, as soon as you do that, as soon as you stick your HTML into a shadow DOM node, it's now no longer accessible. If you just reference it using document dot something, which is very common JavaScript syntax, because what you're saying, it's now no longer visible to the document. So if you say document, it's going to say, I don't know, this thing's not here.

So if you do something like document dot get element by ID and reference part of your HTML, it's just not going to find it. So what you have to do is you have to hook those things. You essentially have to create another function that's called something like find element by ID. And now you call that to get your element ID, which in turn calls get element document dot get element by ID. If it doesn't find that it calls into your shadow DOM for that ID.

If it doesn't find that it calls into the other shadow DOM for the audio footer. If it doesn't find that it calls into the modal shadow DOM. So you're, you're like, you have a function that looks for this thing everywhere. And if it finally finds it, then it gives that back to you. Yeah. Again, these aren't, this is not, none of this is like the end of the world, but it's, yeah, it is just, it's just complicated enough to where there's lots of stuff that could go wrong.

So, you know, as of today, it is mostly working. I haven't, I'm not seeing any more bugs, but I know there's some there. I just have to find, I just have to keep pounding this thing for a while and find them because there's a lot that could go wrong. Also top level event listeners. Uh, so if you have an event listener in the page, uh, I figured that out yesterday that has, see, I had an, I had an event listener for a click handler and it was just doing nothing to close to dismiss a modal.

Also the, you know, so, uh, document observers, none of those things work. You have to customize every one of them to find your now hidden elements there in the shadow dom isolated containers. So we, we're, we're getting there. It's just, this is a complex app. And if it was written from the beginning to do this, there would, this wouldn't be a problem. But having to do this transition, that's been, that's been annoying, but we'll get there.

Let's thank some people as we're getting towards our time here. And I'll give you the live booster grams as they have been coming in. Thank you all very much for supporting us.

We are value for value. This supports the entire index project. 1111 from salty crayon. Howdy boardroom. He says, it's been a while. Just kicking the rust off the Jason juice and the ping pongs go podcasting. And he's coming in for podcast guru coming in from true fans. It's a Martin Linda's cog 1776 freedom boost. I am a pagan podcaster. Please listen to episode 97 of the secular Fox hole.

We are graced with the presence of philosophy professor Andrew Bernstein, who is now venturing into detective fiction. Best premises says Martin Linda's coke, 5,000 sats from a NA millennial from a fountain. Dave is quicker than AI. What's his monthly subscription fee. That's a good question. Oh, I'm cheap. I will pay. I'll pay whatever at this point, a Lyceum. Well, that's a Martin Linda's code.

Yeah. Now from a, from true fans, 1111 Dave, an episode one 71 of buzz buzzcast during chapter podcast by 90 plus year olds gaining popularity. That's the chapter name. They coined the word sad Sage cast. They didn't coin anything. They stole it. What is it? What is it? I don't know. Sage, Sage cast. I know. We know what it is. It's anything you do. That's right. Yeah. Cole McCormick on a fountain, 1111, the Bitcoin and Nostra purists are not helping V for V or podcasting at large.

In my opinion with institutions and Trump going forward with quote, Bitcoin is gold. There needs to be innovation with making Bitcoin the currency easy to access and use for my grandmother or Jean's mom. May she rest in peace. But no one wants to budge in their tech dogma. Jack spoke about this in January on the Citadel dispatch podcast. Hmm. I have to go see what Jack said.

Another Lyceum 1701. Here's an example of the magic of finding a new podcast and look at pod homes, podcasts that we host page and found a trailer for an upcoming new podcast called trust revolution. I think you'll enjoy episode one with guest John Rob, a former special ops officer turned tech visionary. I know John Rob personally actually. Yeah, I do. Is he a visionary? I don't think so. Um, no, and I don't know if he's much, he was, I don't know if he's a special ops guy.

He definitely was a, he was definitely in the DIA. I don't know about special ops. And Martin Lindeskog is just vomiting all over the place. Uh, actually he sent that three times. Thank you. Three times, 1701. It's the same boost, uh, three, three, three, three from ACE Ackerman. Oh, wait, that's from no agenda. Sorry. Uh, Sam, here we go. 4219 from true fans. Welcome back. Gents Friday night, restored red wine in hand and geek chat.

Thank you, Sam. And, uh, there's salty crayon with one, two, three, uh, coming from Curio casters, salty sage signal confirmed, which means you came into the Dave has entered the chat and we started the show. Thank you all very much for these live boosts. And we have quite a few people to thank for the last couple of weeks of, uh, PayPal's and boosts. Uh, Dave, hopefully your scripts, uh, spewed them out for us. It did spew a lot of them out.

So we've got quite a few here and I'm going, I'm going through these in order. I did, I did not break out the monthly. So I'm just reading them all together. The, um, uh, Eric, PP said grandma still uses checks. Yeah, totally. Yeah. By the way, the no agenda show takes checks and we love checks and we get a huge pile of checks. Every single show. Almost. Well, it costs 15 cents for the bank to process it.

And I remember when we got this bank, uh, it's, um, they've changed names now mechanics bank in California, which is, it's like a gangster bank, I guess. I don't know. It's sweet. Yeah. Um, and so before I would show up this pile of checks, you know, like $5, $3 and 33 cents. Like they didn't know what to do with it. So we have, he has, he has a special person who knows he's coming in every two weeks and then dump this pile of, uh, checks under $10 and they just process them.

They do it, but they charge us 15 cents, but still that's less than a PayPal. Less than any other. I thought he was a drug dealer. No, they know he's a drug dealer. Just don't know what kind of drugs he's selling. Um, booberry 17, seven 76 through the boost CLI. Oh, I liked the boost CLI bits plus plus and baubles plus plus. Nice. Um, Darren O 55 55 through podverse. He says, uh, if podcasting was all about money, unrelenting wouldn't exist. Go podcasting. Go podcasting is true. Salty crayon.

This goes way back to April 4th by the way. We've been gone for a while. Yeah. Uh, 1217 through podcast gurus, V for V still works for podcasting 2.0. Everyone else says that it's dead quit and went over to YouTube to be a show. Good luck. Jabroni's exactly. Good luck with that. Bruce, the ugly quacking duck 22 22 through podcast guru says, really great discussion. Thanks for the episode. 73s, 73s, Kilo five alpha Charlie, Charlie's see loss on Linux 22 22 through fountain.

He says podcasting 2.0. What a failure. Number one directory. There's so many higher numbers than one and three. Yeah. Notice there were no articles about that. Yeah, there was no followups. No, nothing, nothing. Number one directory, but yeah, whatever. See loss on Linux again, 22 22 through fountain. He says the death of PHP has been proclaimed forever. Yes. And yet PHP kept getting updated and is actually getting really nice, especially with Laravel PHP and larval 11. Very nice.

I think they have larval 12 now. No idea what changed. I don't think a whole lot changed starter kits. That's what changed. But yeah, PHP eight and larval 11. Oh, it's just an absolute joy. Oh, I'm glad you like it. I'll ask Manus to do my script in that. Can you please do this in Laravel and PHP? Yeah. Yeah. It's so nice to work in that framework. 1701 from Archie, SourceD. He says stats for backend talk. Please start with the hot aisle. Hot aisle. That's a data center reference for nobody.

Hot aisles and cool aisles. Yeah. Archie, I will talk about the backend stuff next week. We had such a long, we had two weeks off, so we had stuff to talk about. Archie wants me to talk about the way the backend is constructed for podcast. Oh yeah. Yeah. I saw that come in. Yeah. Yeah. I'll talk about that next week. I promise. Cameron 3333 through podcast index website. Wow. IPFS Cameron providing notifications for broken umbral nodes since 2021. Hey, I got mine. I got mine.

But start nine is working great. God bless the start nine people, man. They are so cautious. They are so careful. Uh, my umbral never came back to life properly. I gave up on it. Did you lose anything? No, but you know, the, the stats just go back to the wallet. So I have the, I have the word so I can just spin that up whenever I just got to go get my, go get it from the word vault and then I can get the stats and they, they all come back. But now I gave up on it. It was just too iffy.

It was just, it would just blow up every couple of months and just stop. And then, you know, I don't want to get into it. It was horrible. Don't get into it. No, I won't. Not going to twist my arm, but I'm not getting into it. Thank you Cameron for being the uptime service. We all need. Yes. If anything, he's an uptime service. You know, the IPFS, which a void zero runs that over at the no agenda infrastructure. Uh, it, it got so busy with boosts.

I think during Darren show that it just, it just flooded the memory of the machines. And then the whole stream quit and everything was like, Holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. IPFS. Wow. That's weird. IPFS man is beautiful. And then he got a notification. Your note is down. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. Oh really? Thanks. Uh, Kyron from mere mortals, uh, satchel Richards one, one, one, one, the fountain. He says, finally have caught up to the latest episode. Open source is tricky.

It seems like you need just as much people skills and equanimity as actual coding talent. Lucky we have both. That's right. I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. It's open source is only half coding. The rest is politics. Right. Um, and relationships. Good point. Seth 3547 through true fans. He says, I love what you, I love that you had Matt on the show. He's seriously smart. The international troublemaker. That's right.

Uh, we got through fountain, we got 3000 sats from user three, three, seven, seven, eight, two, one, seven, four, one, four, five, two, eight. Thank you. Change your username. Yeah. And he says, thank you. He or she says, thank you for all your work and dedication. You guys help so many and you keep freedom alive. That's right. Well, we try and try, uh, Carl 6 ,007. There's a guy that changed his username through fountain 5,000 sats. He says, I can't for, I think he means I can't wait.

I can't wait for Dave's audio narration edition of his live events and podcasting apps, blog posts. Actually I have, I recorded that maybe three days ago. I just got to edit and stick it up. Yeah. It's coming. Uh, Ooh, that's a support request. That's not going to work. Oh, we got the delimiter. Commissure blogger 18,180 sats through fountain. He says, howdy fellow audio engineering fans, Adam and Dave.

I'd like to invite your audience to subscribe to two video podcasts available also as audio only podcasts by band drew, which you can find on YouTube and podcast directories by searching for podcast edge and band drew says podcast. First one is a microphone review channel with 335,000 subscribers on YouTube. Second is his personal soliloquy podcast, both a delight for audio engineering fans. Yo CSB.

It's funny that the guy who is always talking about and promoting bandrews microphone podcast doesn't actually use a microphone for anything. I've never thought about it that way. He never uses a mic. At least not his voice to be heard. Not for anything public. The late to entrant boosts from Steven B 5,000 sats and that is coming in from the split kit nickel dime quarter five, 10, 25. My man boobery will be showing what is possible with a live show.

You'll want to check out his satellite showcase musical extravaganza. That's a may 10th. Hopefully that's a Sunday so we can promote it on no agenda. Oh yeah. Darren O said you need to send band drew a curry one. Yeah. Good luck with that. One day, one day, five. Yeah, it's a Sunday. Okay, good. Sunday. Yeah. No, it's a Saturday. Five, seven, 25. Yeah. Okay. All right. Uh, we got some PayPal's there. These are all mixed in together. Uh, Randy black sent us $10. Thank you, Randy.

Appreciate you brother. Uh, Basil Phillip, $25 podverse. Speak of the devil podverse sent us 50 bucks. Thank you. Podverse. Uh, Lauren ball, $24 20 cents. Mitch Downey over there. Podverse $10. Uh, Christopher Harbark $10. Let's see. Terry Keller, $5. Silicone florist, $10. Chris Cowan, $5. Paul Saltzman, $22 and 22 cents. Thank you, Paul. Damon Casajak, $15. Thank you, Damon. Uh, Derek J. Viscar, the best name in podcasting, $21. Uh, Jeremy Gerds, $5. And we got, Oh, Alexander Beatty sent $200.

Whoa. Hold on a second. Thank you. Lovely. He said, Dave, apparently to get your attention, I have to donate to podcasting 2.0. Hey, that helps. It works. It worked. Well, last month you brought up a philosophy book that reminded me of my favorite philosophy book. And I sent you a link to the audio book in my mega NZ drive. Here is the DM that I sent you on podcast index social. Uh, so the, yeah. And he's, he gives his DM.

I don't know if he wants me to read that, but, um, he slid, he slid into your DMS, baby. I think I saw this and wasn't exactly sure what it was because things with mega links scare me. Uh, yeah, I'm not a big fan of the mega links. I'm so risk averse from getting fished by things. I think I remember seeing that and kind of like being afraid of it. Send it back to me. Um, Alex, Alexander, thank you. I appreciate you. And, uh, and I'll check. I'll know it's, I'll know what it is this time.

And I'll, uh, he said he really enjoyed hearing about the technical side of the project as an iOS developer. And, uh, cool. Thank you. Appreciate your donation. And let's see, we got, uh, Gene Liverman, $5. Thank you, Gene. Appreciate your brother. Uh, new media productions. That's, uh, Todd Todd. That's Todd. Yep. $30. Thank you, Todd. Michael, Michael Hall, $5 and 50 cents. Timothy voice, $10. Um, Oh, bus route, $1,000. Boom.

Keeping it alive. Thank you so much brothers. Appreciate that so much. Paying my taxes. Thank you. Yes. The taxes on money we don't get. Yes, exactly. That's the funniest part of being an LLC is you pay taxes over money. You don't get his own. Yeah. For money you don't have. He's like, okay, great. Uh, well, he steamed bear $5. Thank you. Westin Jorge Hernandez, $5. Michael Goggin, $5. Uh, Oh, Rob, that's blueberry. $300. Thank you boys and girls over there. Blueberry.

Thank you for keeping us alive. Hey gents, Todd here from blueberry. If there is one thing we would love, uh, it's like an ultimate change log for updates and changes to tags, et cetera. I know there are not enough hours in the day, but if someone is doing this, let us know. I am doing this Todd. So, um, if you, Todd, if you look, uh, let me get over here to the namespace. Okay. I'm going to the discussions. I'm going to find this for you right now. Uh, this changes made.

Okay. So if you go to the podcast namespace on get hub and go to announcements, category slash, uh, changes made, uh, the announcement changes made every time I make a change, I add a note to this thread. Well, there you go. So that's, that's what y'all need. If y'all just mock, if y'all just take a look at that thread or keep it, keep an eye on that discussion group. Anytime I make a change, I will, I will document it there.

If, if that doesn't work and you think there's a better way, somebody tell me, um, but I, that's what I have been doing. So yeah. Tell me if that doesn't work for you. Okay. Todd. Uh, and Cone Glotzbach $5, James Sullivan, $10, Christopher Raymer $10, Jordan Dunville, $10. And that's our group. Beautiful group indeed. Is that everything we got at all?

It's all done. That's it. All right. Thank you all so much for supporting the podcast index and doing that through the podcasting

2.0, a weekly board meeting. Sorry we missed two in a row. Um, that kind of sucked, but life got in the way of a lot of things. I was traveling. Yeah. Life and travel. Exactly. Uh, so we will be back, uh, next week. Uh, brother Dave, you're going back to work. Uh, actually I'm going to an art show. My wife's having an art show. Oh, she's not pretty.

She doesn't have art in the show. She's an art. Uh, she, this is through a connoisseur. She's a connoisseur of art. She's a teacher, art teacher at the school. And so the, her, her classes are having art and art show. So nice. Oh, beautiful. All right, everybody boardroom. Thank you so much for being here. Uh, we've done a lot of podcasting 2 .0 talk today. Thank you very much. Remember to keep vibe coding. It'll keep you busy for the rest of the week. We'll be back next week on Friday with

podcasting 2.0. You have been listening to podcasting 2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information. I own this place. I'm a plug in.