Episode 209: Pick Your Porthole

Podcasting 2.0 for January 31st, 2025, episode 209. Pick your porthole. Oh yeah baby, it is Friday. It is time once again for the board meeting. It is podcasting 2.0 where we discuss everything happening with podcasting from a worldview that goes back over two decades. What's happening right now and we look into the future because I've got the pod sage with me. We are the only boardroom that keeps visual separation at all times.

I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who has a pod pin, web socket, end point just for you. Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one, the only Mr. Dave Jones. Visual separation, you know it... Too soon, too soon, too soon, too soon. It tickled James Cridland to no end that we, when we were in that podcast movement together, we did the show, we did the boardroom from our own hotel rooms over clean feet.

Yes, yeah, that was definitely visual separation. Yes, indeed. Yeah, it just doesn't work any other way. I can't stare at you and do the show. No. It's weird. No, no. Although I have to say, I have an upgrade to the studio. What is it? Well, we got a new bed, which was time because this was... In the studio? No, no, in our bedroom. What kind of show are you doing? This is Only Fans, right? I got webcams, I got tripods, it's all rocking and rolling, baby. A swing. I got to send you a picture.

So we had... No, because it was actually my bed for my bachelor day. So there was always like, you know, we should probably get a new bed because, you know, who knows what happened here. And so it was then we had, when we bought this house, it was a complete smart home, so I had to dismantle everything. But it did have a big flat screen hanging on the wall. And we've never turned it on because we just, we don't watch television when we're in bed. We just, no, no TV.

And so the guy was here anyway, so I had him remounted in the studio right across from where I'm sitting. So and then he rehung all of my... I should take a picture and post it in the boardroom. It's so cool. So the TV, this, you've got a TV in the podcast room now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold on, let me take a picture. For what? Does it stay on while you're... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what he did is... Let me take this picture here. Boom. Um, and so how do I get it into the chat room?

That's a good question. Stick it in Freedom Controller. Yeah, but I've got to get it out of, you know, the Freedom Controller doesn't do very well on mobile. Oh, because the editor is not there yet. Well, if I make it full screen, then I can kind of get away with it, but it's definitely not easy. Anyway, um, and so then he rehung, uh, my soundproofing.

So it's, you know, it's just like one of those things where I've always wondered, would it influence my shows if I can look up and see headlines and, you know, stuff like that. So you can see breaking news, yeah. Yes, breaking news, exactly. Breaking! Okay, I can send it to Signal to myself. Here we go. And that's the way to do it because it, I mean, it just looks so professional now. And I am, I'm now ready.

I'm actually ready to do a video podcast and get in on that hot thing all the kids are talking about. So is it on right now, the TV? Yeah, hold on a second. Where's my... If there's podcast breaking news, are you going to interrupt the show? You better believe it! Podcast breaking news on CNN. On CNN. I'm actually, uh, I'm a CNBC guy most of the day, to be honest about it. I like CNBC. Well, they have to be kind of honest, uh, because, you know, it's financial stuff.

And so they, you know, there's stuff that moves markets and, you know, that's going to be the stuff that, that they'll talk about. And it's also just fun to watch inverse, uh, Kramer, you know. Inverse, yeah. That guy, that guy cracks me up. Okay, hold on. I finally got it. I've moved it over. There we go. I'm going to post this on the, here we go. I want to see this sweet rig. Okay, there it is. There's my sweet rig. Hey, now. Look at that.

And so we re-hung all of my sound panels, which actually is a little bit better. Isn't that cool? Oh yeah, I like that. The key takeaways from Apple's results. It's still, it's out. Sell on the news, breaking news, breaking news. Yes, exactly. Um, brisket update from last week. Oh yeah, how'd it turn out? Dynamite. You've got, and what you have to understand is it was the timing of everything because you have to take it up to 160 degrees.

I take, and so I figured out that'd take about three hours. And then, well, no, then you got to take it up to 192. And that was right during the show. And I, you know, and I don't have any Bluetooth or any kind of enabled thermometer. And when we were done with the show, uh, before I even did the post, I ran out, checked it. It was 188. And so I backed time. They're like, oh, I can post the show, walk the dog, come back. Bam. 192. Yeah. 192. Exactly.

Yeah. You shot, you, you did a three pointer from half court. Yeah. Yeah. And yes, thank you. Salty crayon. I do need, I have white surgical gloves. That's kind of lame. Uh, in the picture, which, uh, Tina took some pictures. I need those black gloves, those pro pro gloves that all the brisket guys. Oh, the, the, the, the heat gloves. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'd look kind of lame. Let me, let me question what is in your picture here where it says B, C, D, E, F, G. What is that?

Oh, that's in case I forget how to do the alphabet, uh, A, B, C, D, um, those are my players. You've never seen my studio. Have you? No, those are the players. So, um, let me take a look at that picture. I was in your studio like 12 years ago. Well, that was very, very different studio. So, um, those are players. And so when you say, Hey, I've got these clips from on the media. I'll just click. You can't, it's right out of view, but I'll click it. I'll drag it in there.

And then I have a midi controller, um, which is just faders and start and stop buttons. And then from there I can start, stop, and actually dump the three buttons. I can dump the clip out. So that's fancy. Well, I designed it myself. Thank you. Because it's, um, M air list, which comes as a kind of like a radio station play out system, but you can completely design it however you want. So I designed it with, um, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, yeah.

With, uh, seven players, which fits right atop right across that, by the way, that screen is also a touch screen. Oh, so I can, I can hit, you know, stuff like that down at the bottom. How big is that screen by the way? How big is it? It's like 27 inches. Uh, yeah. I know. I don't know how big it is. Yeah. 27. It looks large from the, from the, like a surface studio size. Yeah. It is a surface studio size. Yeah. And it's touch screen. So yeah. Yeah. So that is how the, the, the bagels are made.

Everybody. You've had a little look inside, inside. Anyway, the brisket was dynamite. Um, uh, something beautiful happened today. I mean, beautiful and not so beautiful. So, you know, in my local radio slash podcast experiment known as hellofred.fm. Yes. All of a sudden I see the numbers going up, not just of the stream, but people are clicking around in the podcast. I'm like, okay, what's going on? Turns out you're talking about Godcaster. Godcaster.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. So hellofred.fm is Godcaster. It has a live stream and on the live stream, we do promos for podcasts and we've just added one, the Capitol report, this guy, Matt Long here, um, he does five minutes a week on what's been happening in the Capitol in Austin. So it's, it's more of a statewide thing, but it's still, it's cool that that's Matt, our guy here, you know, everyone knows Matt. You bump into him everywhere. He plays Ben Franklin on holidays. He's everyone knows Matt Long.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. The bald wig, everything. He goes into schools and we'll do a whole rundown of our, of our constitution. Everyone loves Matt. Um, but, uh, KTLY in Dallas, which had been running for decades, uh, shut down, had its last broadcast today. KTLY contemporary Christian music station, but very loved up in Dallas. And it got bought by, um, it got, you know, that was part of Salem and Salem sold it. So it's going to turn into K-Love.

I think it already has turned into K -Love, which is this just monstrous, uh, CCM station. And they have, they've purchased, I don't know how many stations they have. Gordon would know, but it's several hundred. What does CCM mean? Contemporary Christian music. Oh, I see. Okay. Like, um, like Mercy Me, Lauren Daigle, excuse me.

And, uh, so they turned off and, uh, somehow someone had said, well, you know, these guys are doing this down in Fredericksburg and now everyone they're choosing Hello Fred over K -Love. Because, yes, because they feel it's more of a Texas vibe. I'm like, you guys need to start your own up there, you know, do your own thing and we'll show you how. But yeah, I mean, and it just, they become so clear to me where podcasting needs to go.

This, this hyperlocal, you know, it's, and it's, it's the opposite of how many people can I get to listen and get advertising? It's the opposite of that. And, you know, and I truly believe with Value for Value, local communities will support a local podcast or multiple podcasts. I mean, I just believe that very strongly. And I have some evidence of it myself with the podcast that Tina and I do. But it, you know, not everybody can listen to all the big national shows.

So you need to have someone local who's distilling that, distilling how that, you know, how that's relevant to your local community. And again, I'm going to make my weekly plea for Apple to include the lit tag in, in the Apple podcast. And I know we were talking about how do we do, you know, how do we, how do you discern from a feed when something's live? I'm like, no, pod ping and lit tag go hand in hand.

And this thing is robust and, and, and it's not going to put any strain on pod ping for Apple to slurp it. It won't put any, put any strain on the system. And look how many podcast hosts already support it. We have hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are hitting pod ping. Apple, wake up, do something innovative. Stop with the Apple intelligence crap. We all know it's going down. Do something crazy for a change. Your numbers are going down. You're losing the YouTube. Do something innovative.

How many, how many apps do support the live tag? I'm, let me, you know what I should go to. We have a page for that. I was about to go into the podcast index page. We have a page for that. I'm quite sure. I'm going to apps. Apps, yes. We're going to filter filters. Yes. Live live. Where's live? I can't find the app type. Where's live? And then app type app, true fans, pod, verse, podcast, guru, fountain, peer tube, podcast, addict, curio, caster, split kit, and Digi lore, which I've never heard.

I've never heard of that either. So that's a one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, nine. Do I count that right? Yeah. This is weak. It's weak. It's weak, people. It's weak. We need more. I mean, like, where, where's, uh, uh, I mean, where, where's, where's all the apps for live? It's not, it's, it's, isn't it not that hard? Uh, pod LP. Most of these should do it. Yeah. What needs, uh, what else should be doing it? Anytime, anytime player breeze. Antenna pod pocket.

Now Franco is working on it. Okay. I think Franco is going to have like, he's Franco is moving. He is. He's clearly Franco is on the move. He's on the move. Ladies and gentlemen, Franco's on the move. Farther in and farther up. Franco is, is, is rustling the leaves. So I think, I think Castamatic will come on board soon, but where, where's, where's the rest of the apps, man? Like not, you know, uh, there's like anytime player breeze.

I mean, when we do no agenda, we have two to 3000 people listening live. They're not all listening on the apps, but a lot of them are. A lot of them are. What about overcast? Oh, they do a, no, no, no. They do a live show with a, with an ice cast stream. No, that would mean that Marco was capitulated to the Christian nationalist fascist. Don't you understand? He can't do that. Well, Trump didn't invent it. He didn't invent the life tag. We did. Yeah, we did. But you, you know what we are?

We're no good. We're no good. We're crazy. Yeah. The puck. I mean, the pod, the podcasts, I mean, the podcast and 2.0 namespace people invented that. It was not, it's why. Yeah. This is, this is why I listened to pivot and Dave Weiner. I've got, I've, I've, I've got my hate. Like 20s, 20,000 clips. Well, before you do that, let me just add one last thing that I'm not ready for you. No, no, no. That Sam, Sam pinged me pinged us actually. And he said, I'm looking at hello, Fred.

And he wanted to reiterate that there is a publisher feed equals radio, which if I understand it correctly, correctly, should trigger a podcast app to play episodes automatically one after another. Is that how I understand it? You mean, you mean the medium radio medium? Yeah. Medium radio. Yes. Right. Is that how that works? It'll, it'll act like a normal, like serialized. Yeah. Which you can set, you can set that in most podcast apps.

But in this case it would, I guess would trigger it setting automatically. It's worth doing. It's probably a small fix for people to parse that. I mean, I said he non-developer it's easy. Well, I'm dead. We need pod ping to, um, I need, I need, I need to deploy the pod ping dot cloud servers. I've been, I'm desperately trying to get back to some podcast index stuff because the Godcaster stuff has been owning my time.

Yes. And like to the point where I can't even like send the credentials to Alex to get in and deploy a, yes, a Docker container. Yes. But, um, um, if at all possible, I'm going to try, I'm going to really get that done this week. Cause we, we need the, we need that support on there. And, and, uh, Alex has already coded it up. It just has to be deployed and right. Okay. But, um. Well, you'll have some time in the next few weeks as we head off to NRB and we'll be heads down doing other stuff.

So we won't be able to be throwing stuff at you. Yeah. No, it'll be, uh, no, no change. Uh, no change, no change in RB. No change in RB. Yeah. Um, and the stuff you've done is amazing though, brother. It's amazing. You've built basically built a, an app, a full on web app that does amazing things. It really is amazing. I love it.

One day when, once, once we launch, we'll talk, uh, once we launched Godcaster, like officially or whatever, we'll, we'll just go through and, you know, talk about all the tech there. Yeah. But, um, that'll be, that'll be fun to, to go over on the boardroom.

But I mean, like, so on the pod ping front, I've been talking to, uh, Alex in this, this sort of like slow burn, uh, thing that we've been passing back and forth for a long time is a way to decentralize, you know, lots of stuff, but, but pod ping decentralizing pod ping beyond, um, the, you know, hive core. Wait, breaking news, breaking news, breaking news. White house says Trump will implement 25% tariff on Mexico, Canada, 10% on China starting tomorrow, breaking news. Okay. I'm sorry.

Turn off CNBC. You've got, this is not good for the show. I'm turning it off. I just wanted to do it because we just talked about this happening. This is probably, I mean, I remember breaking news was like a once a year event. Yeah. It's like every five minutes. The shuttle launched or we landed on the moon or something cool like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you now. It's like breaking news. Somebody, you know, a bill. All right. I'm sorry. Back to your profile.

So we've been talking about this for a long time about decentralizing stuff. And then pod ping clearly, um, is, is a candidate for having other distribution channels. And so, you know, he, he, he wrote pod ping D and that gets, uh, gets us to where, oh, I'm hearing myself come back in your mic or something. I'm hearing that too. That's weird. All right. Let me back off. Go ahead. Oh, okay. All right.

Um, that gets us forward to where we're headed, but, uh, then I saw this thing called IRO, I R O H and. ERO? That ERO. Yeah. It looks promising. Oh, uh, R O H. I'm not sure if it's an acronym or it stands for something, but, uh, let me put, there's a YouTube video I was watching about it and let me paste it in the boardroom here. There we go. So the, the place we were looking at. Why are you coming back through my headphones? This is very odd. I'm going to mute myself. I don't know.

I'm, I'm hearing myself too. I don't, I don't know why. Hold on a second. Are you hearing yourself come back through your. I hear myself coming back from your side as if I'm like in the room coming out of the speaker. Uh, do you hear it now? No, I don't think so. No, I do not. Okay. Then it's just my headphones. I'm sorry. That's weird. All right. Era. Uh, you know, yeah, era.

So it's, um, we, we looked at live P2P for, uh, for a while and live P2P is a, you know, peer to peer, uh, decentralized, uh, protocol, uh, message passing protocol. It's actually, it's a suite of things. It's not just one thing. Uh, it's a suite of sort of functionality that you, uh, that you can use to build decentralized apps. And, you know, these would be apps that just have no sort of like home-based server. Uh, and the problem with live P2P is it's really complicated.

Uh, the, it's not, the documentation is okay, but you, it, it's not for the faint of heart. And so they simplified it. It's sort of like a lot with live P2P. It's sort of like, okay, here's a suite of pro of protocols and, and, and sort of standards and then, um, and some code and you, it's up to you to put all this stuff together in a way that's useful for your apps, like an erector set. Yes, which is fine, except it's so hard that nobody's going to be, nobody's going to join in this party.

So, um, IPFS, the IPFS Damon had for a short time had an implementation of live P2P gossip. So one of the, one of the things in live P2P was a gossip protocol where, you know, you could broadcast a, uh, messages over a gossip channel and then you, it's like a pub sub. I could have, you could have 15 nodes connected to the network and then, uh, and then you get, um, and then you create a, uh, a topic. Then you send messages out over that topic.

And people who have subscribed to that topic now receive those messages. And we test, and we tested this, uh, Alex created a topic and we, we, we tested it using the binary for IPFS. So that worked, but then they canceled their, they basically just ripped all that code out of IPFS. And so that means you're back to sort of like built, rolling your own implementation. And so that it's sort of left this, this hole that we, you know, that we've always been exploring in the background.

Uh, and then this arrow thing looks, it looks like a, a possible good solution. It, it's better, it's better with it. Go ahead. No, no, no. I'm just going, huh? I'm making listening noises. That's what I do with my wife. That's what I do with my wife. Okay. You're like, you're like, you're like Brooke, you're like Brooke Glover. Oh, yes. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yes. Uh, so Eero has some advantages. It works better with nat traversal and hole punching.

They use some sort of like tail scale style, um, noise protocol relay thing that is like a fallback, uh, to make getting through nat more reliable and dependable. Um, and that's, that was, that's one place that live P2P struggled with is, is some of that technology. Uh, it's simple. The it's, the code is more simple. It's much more simple actually. Um, and the, uh, it uses the, like you can, you can, it supports subscribing by what they call tickets. So that means, that means like, let's, okay.

So let me, let me just sort of paint a picture real quick. Imagine we're running a, um, some sort of Eero client on, on our side. And then what we're doing is we're pushing out, we're republishing all the pod pings we see into this Eero gossip talk topic. And we're also pushing out, um, messages for things that we discover. Uh, so things that our polling agents discover that were never pod pinged. Um, so that, that would be, I'm just, I'm just off the cuff trying to think of this use case here.

And now, now everybody who's, who's connected to us is also in subscribe to this topic is also getting these messages. Um, then what we could do, we could do this a couple of ways. There could be a ticket where, um, there's a, this ticket sort of subscribes you to this topic. And we could, we could create that and send it out when we have, um, sort of when you, in order for you to join the network, let's say it's a QR code or some sort of like a string.

Or it also supports subscribing, um, through P, by PCAR, uh, P-K-A-R on the BitTorrent mainline DHT. So you can do it that way too, so that the bootstrapping is like even a little more automatic. So you could, we could possibly get it to where you could just sort of boot up, boot up the client and it just, you just start receiving the podcast index messages. Um, and so like, you know, all of this could be, uh, sort of a, a way to have a bit, a podcast index. Um, how do I describe this?

Like a podcast index. Messaging bus? Messaging. Yes. So Podping exists sort of on its own. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a thing that exists and fine. But then, um, the question is, how do you, how do you watch it? You know, how, how do you subscribe to it? And there's, there's, you know, there's the Hive Watcher client. And then there's, uh, uh, John Spurlock's, uh, Podping web socket. There's these different solutions on how to watch the Podping network.

Or, or I guess even IRC in a way could play into this, right? Uh, what do you mean? Um, IRC could watch it, bring stuff in, the bots can translate stuff, do things. Or am I ahead of the game here? No, that's, I mean, yeah, basically we're, yeah. You're just saying the same thing where we're saying, okay, all of this thing, all of these messages that are coming over Podping are available to watch. And so you just sort of have to pick, pick, you have to pick your porthole.

You know, there's a show title. Yeah. So you just pick, you pick your porthole and watch through the watch, you know, you just look at the hole and watch the messages come in. And then, um, so this would just be a different porthole. So we would, we would create a new hole that has Podpings in it. And also reasons, possibly other things that we want to, uh, to, to broadcast like, uh, like index, maybe index updates. Oh, okay. I feel you. I feel you now.

Yep. Yeah. So now, now maybe every, let's, let's just say every 15, 20 minutes, maybe we do a big batch of, uh, episode data or feed data that we have found over the last 15 to 20 minutes. So that other people can then begin to build their own indexes off of our index. And you can, so I see it has no JS rust and swift. Yes. That's my, yeah, that's what I saw too. I think rust is the, is the sort of like what people are first class citizen. Yeah. I think that's the primary.

Um, but anyway, I think I want to, I would really like to explore this. Um, I like it. Anything like that, man, I'm, I'm digging that for sure. Yeah. So it could be, it could be sort of like a, um, almost like a queue. Um, so you like, imagine, you know, like, uh, imagine a pipeline where you say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to scan these, these RSS feeds. I'm going to get the, get the most recent data out of them.

Then in order to get into the database, I'm going to stick it in this queue where it lines up and waits to get included into the database. Well, that queue could be an ERO topic. You know, and you could have multiple topics. One could be database updates. One could be pod paying. One could be that kind of thing.

I'm just, I'm trying, I'm constantly trying to find a new way to sort of wrap all this stuff into, into one base sort of base technology that doesn't depend on, or, or excuse me, let me try to be more realistic here. That, that depends as little as possible on central central services. Yeah, sure.

Because other people want to, they, you know, we need a base to build off of and pod ping, pod ping is really good for what it does because it's a, it's a, it's a, but it also, there's stuff you don't want to put on pod ping. Like that doesn't make any sense on pod ping. Because, because pod ping is a, is a, at its heart, it's, it's hive. It's the block, it's a blockchain and that stuff is permanent. It's never going to be removed.

You don't really need a permanent ledger of some of this type of data. Like, you know, if you want to know, did, did so-and-so change? If you, it's nice to have a permanent ledger of every time a feed updated with a new episode because that data could be useful to go back and look at in the past. But do you really need to know that it changed his artwork? Well, you may want to know that within the next 30 minutes, but do you need to know that forever on the blockchain?

No, no, no, it's, it's not useful. Oh, here come new block size wars. I can feel it coming already. Yeah. So, you know, we, we've been throwing a bunch of stuff around about, you know, like creating our own blockchain or some sort of thing like, uh, but anyway, I want to go down this road. I like it.

And I thought I would just throw it out there because if anybody else wants to, you know, play around with this, uh, maybe we could, you know, all just sort of, uh, play around with this and get, get some ideas of what we, of how we could bake the index into this in a decentralized way. I like it, man. That sounds cool. Yeah. It really does. Maybe. I hope, I hope it's cool.

Cause I always get excited about these decentralized protocols and then, uh, and then it's like, um, they, they, I see how complicated they are, or maybe sometimes how unreliable they are. And then I just kind of get, it fizzles, you know? Well, I see they have a, they have a blog and the most recent post is January 15th. So it seems to be pretty active with the 0.31 release. So it's active. It's an active community. Yeah, it seems to be.

Um, and I think, I think what's been, what has been needed in this area, this sort of a DHT backed bootstrapped, um, pub sub arena, what's been needed is simplicity. It's for somebody to come in and write and write some, some, some libraries that a, that a normal dev can pick up and build something with within, you know, a couple of days. Because even activity pub has been challenging. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's been hard for people.

And it's, it's actually not, uh, it's actually not that bad, but then you hit these hurdles and you're like, oh, you just want to tear your hair out. Um, it's Iroh, I-R-O-H dot computer. Yeah, it's Iroh, just like the band. Yes, it is. Like the V4V band, Iroh. Yeah. I don't know. We'll see where it goes. I like it. I like it. I got an update from Oscar, by the way. Oh, okay. On Fountain. He says, uh, on the doing Ellen URL, Ellen address, uh, payments. Yeah. Through Fountain, uh, from Oscar.

Hey, Adam, sorry for the delay. It's almost ready next week for sure. So we'll take that. I believe him. I believe, I believe. It's great. I still get all kinds of, uh, payments on my, uh, on my strike wall. It's happening all the time. So there's definitely something as Stephen B's, uh, cinematic universe is still, still doing stuff. That's for sure. Can we say that we successfully, um, navigated the turn? No, no. Booster, booster way down. Everything's down.

Okay. Is it as down as, uh, open as, as, um, Nvidia, Nvidia, Nvidia stock. Yeah. We lost about a half a trillion worth of value on the booster grams. It's really bad. Everybody. Uh, that's, that's, uh, I've got some on the media clips if you want to laugh. Yes, of course. I'm very excited about laughing about Brooke and Micah. Did you, did you listen to this episode? No, I have not. And when I saw you and, uh, uh, Brian of London talking about, I'm like, oh, goodie, goodie. Oh, goodie, goodie.

I'm not going to listen. I listened to power instead. So, um, uh, I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready. The, so this guy, what is his name? Uh, Ed Zitron. Yeah. Yeah. Who is that guy? Who is that guy? Is that the AI guy? No, that's. Yeah. I realized after Ed Zitron, that's his name. I realized after the, I heard this, that I had seen, I had read this guy's blog before. I think he's got a sub stack. Uh, I may be wrong, but I think that's true.

Where's your ed dot at the words of, yeah, it is a sub stack, I guess. It is. Okay. Yeah. That's okay. I thought I recognized this guy. Yeah. Uh, but first of all, this guy's very difficult to clip. He's, he does this Trumpian rabbit. He does the weave. He does the weave. Oh God. The weave is so long and so hard to, to like stitch back together. It's, it's awful.

Um, but, but, uh, but I, I was able to get a, get a bunch out of it though, but he's, he's talking about obviously the, the, um, deep seek. Yeah. Yeah. You know, cheap, cheap seek, we call it now. Oh, okay. I haven't heard no agenda. I'm sure you're talking about cheap seek. Yes, indeed. Yeah. Uh, and what's funny, I don't think I had this in any of the clips, but, uh, Brooke, Brooke calls it, um, Nvidia instead of Nvidia. Because she's so with it.

She watches, she doesn't have a monitor with CNBC in her studio, obviously. No, she can't tell you breaking news when it happens. But, um, I don't know if you saw it. Did you see today that the deep seek database got hacked? Oh yeah. Oh, that the database got hacked. Yeah. Yeah. The backend for the hosted service. And they pulled like chat logs and all kinds of stuff out of it. Oh no, that's great. What was in there? What was in there? I don't, I don't know.

I'm not sure if they've posted what was in it yet, but they've got, they've showed screenshots. That's great. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty funny. But the, um, so they, but they're talking just about what, about the ramifications of deep seek and, um, how, and it coming onto the market. And, uh, this guy's great, man.

He's so the first clip is him just talking about overall, some of the problem with, uh, with LLMs as they exist today and how remarked, like he calls it, you know, he says, you know, they're remarkably accurate, but that's just not enough. Okay. These models were always kind of going to Peter out because they'd run out of training data, but also there's only so much you can do with a probabilistic model. They don't have thoughts. They are probabilistic.

They guess the next thing coming and they're pretty good at it, but pretty good is actually nowhere near enough. And when you think of what makes a software boom, a software boom is usually based on mass consumer adoption and mass enterprise level adoption. Now the enterprise referring to big companies of like 10,000, 50,000, a hundred thousand people, but down to like a thousand, nevertheless, financial services, healthcare, all of these industries, they have very low tolerance for mistakes.

And if you make a mistake with your AI, well, I'm not sure if you remember what happened with Knight Capital. That was with an algorithm. They lost hundreds of millions of dollars and destroyed themselves because of one little mistake. We don't even know how these things fully function, how they make their decisions, but we do know they make mistakes because they don't know anything. They do not have knowledge. They are not conscious. I get it. Not, no, no, no, not just not conscious.

They don't know anything. ChatGPT does not know. Even if you say, give me a list of every American states and it gets it right every time. It's just pattern recognition. Yes. It is effectively saying, what is the most likely answer to this? It doesn't know what a state is. It doesn't know what America is. It doesn't know anything. It is just remarkably accurate probability, but remarkably accurate is nowhere near as accurate as we would need it to be.

And as a result, there's only so much they could have done with it. Well, he's singing my tune. That's for sure. Yeah. And I guess what caught me about this was, you know, close to accurate, it's sort of like close to accurate. Yeah. Close to accurate is sort of like the uncanny valley, you know, issue. No, it's almost, you know, do you know that concept? The uncanny valley? It sounds familiar, but I don't know.

I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, it's basically, it's, it's that idea that- Let me ask Chad GBT. Hold on. Yeah, go for it. What is the uncanny valley? I have deep seek running here at home, actually. A concept in robotics, animation, and psychology that describes the eerie or unsettling feeling people experience when they encounter humanoid robots, animated characters, or CGI figures that look almost, but not quite, human.

Yeah. So the close, like a Pixar cartoon character, you're fine with it because it's so, it's so obviously different than a regular human. Right. But then the closer something gets to actually looking real human, you begin to note all the little flaws become more pronounced and you become more and more uncomfortable.

Like, you know, those, those Japanese robots that are designed to like closely mimic humans, their mannerisms, they look, their face may look identical to a real human, but their mannerisms are a little off. Right. And it just makes you weird it out. And that's, that's the issue with LLMs. They're, they're so, they're, they're close to accurate, but it's almost worse than them being just completely wrong. Because they, they're so, they, they tell you the wrong thing in such a convincing way.

Yeah, they do. Even with the same question asked twice often, it'll give you a different answer with a very convincing tone. Yes. I've always said it's a parlor trick, especially the way it types stuff out on the screen. Like, okay. I've recently had experience with Microsoft Copilot, the enterprise version of Microsoft Copilot. Oh, good goodness gracious. This is where they, no, well, I mean, I'm, I'm testing it.

Okay. So this is where they bake in Copilot to like Excel and Word and all this stuff. I've had it pop up saying, do you want help with this? It's like Clippy. Do you want help with this? No, not really. Not for 50 bucks. No. Well, you can hit the Copilot button in Excel and give it a chart of data. Give it a, give it a table of, of data that's perfectly formed.

Um, and I can say, give me a pie chart of this data and it will crunch along a bunch of stuff and it'll say, and then it'll finally spit out. Okay. I created your pie chart in the pie charts. Nowhere. It doesn't exist. It didn't, it did not put it in the, in the document. It doesn't. And then I, and then I write, uh, I don't see the pie chart in the, in the spreadsheet and it says, Oh, you, maybe you want help on how to find pie charts in the, in the, Oh, right. Right.

It doesn't, it really doesn't know what it's doing. It is a complete fail. Yeah. Complete fail. No, I did, Eric. Now I did, I did that again. I said, please create a pie chart of this table and insert it into a new worksheet inside this Excel document. And then it came back and said the same thing. Okay. I created a pie chart. It still doesn't exist. It's not anywhere. You can't find it.

Um, and so it's like, it's, it's the hard things that we need the most help with things like creating a complicated pivot tables or booking a flight and making trip reservations. But that's the one, those are the things you would never use this for meal planning, meal planning. Would you ever let an LLM agent try to book a flight for you?

Um, I know a lot of people who have, um, sent me emails saying, well, you Mr. Luddite, I asked Chachi PT to plan a trip to Fredericksburg and wineries to visit. I'm like, well, you're going to go have some crap wine. I can tell you that just from looking at this, uh, this output here and where to stay. I'm like, good luck getting a room there, you know? So yeah, no, I w I wouldn't. In fact, we pay an actual human, uh, to book our vacations. She charges 150 bucks, I think it's 150 bucks.

And, uh, and, and she says, what's your budget? And you give her a budget and she has everything. Um, if you wanted to, she'll do the flights, but since we have points on credit cards and stuff, we do that ourself. And, uh, and she comes back within a day or two, which is what it takes. And she has a whole host of things.

And she knows all the players like, well, if you're going on this cruise, which we're not, um, you know, this looks cheap, but wait until you have to pay for the meals and the premium drinks and all this stuff. And so that's a human who has experience and I enjoy that very much. So I, no, I would not trust chat GPT to do any of that for me. Well, in clip two, he's talking about, uh, how a Silicon Valley hijacked the normal, like innovation process with growth marketing.

You said that AI in this country was just throwing a lot of money at the wall, seeing if some new idea would actually emerge. Are we talking about agents that can actually do things for you in a predictable way? Are we talking about God? What is the new idea that they were hoping would emerge from throwing? Stop the clip. Brooke, what are you saying, Brooke? She's did they, they accidentally created God. This is, this is like CSB. It's like Brooke CSB. I will, I'll roll the clip back a bit.

The, um, the agents thing, that's what, um, Salesforce is touting, which to me has nothing to do with artificial intelligence. I know enough people inside Salesforce who've told me it's like, it's just some middleware that talks from one API to the next. And it's like Apple scripts. You know, you can set something up and then the agent, it's like a cron job. There you go. It's a cron job agent. We have an AI agent. Oh, you mean a cron job?

Are we talking about agents that can actually do things for you in a predictable way? Are we talking about God? What is the new idea that they were hoping would emerge from throwing billions at this project? So Silicon Valley has not really had a full depression. We may think the dot-com bubble was bad, but the dot-com bubble was they discovered e-commerce and then ran it in the worst way possible.

This is so different because if this had not had the hype cycle it had, we probably would have ended up with an American DeepSeek in five years. Yeah, that's interesting. I believe that.

Yeah, and he fleshes that out later, but I thought that was a pretty good, um, a pretty good insight that it's, it's because of the financial hijinks and that mean, that meant we went down this path of, um, pouring endless amounts of money into the most expensive way to do this and never looked for any alternative. Well, it's because people don't look at history. The people with the money are easily hoodwinked with flower points. I've, I've seen this myself.

I've raised money from venture capitalists. Um, it's always the hottest me too thing. This is how Podshow wound up being Mevio because, hey man, have you seen Juiced? Juiced is everything's going to be like juiced. You remember Juiced? J-O-O-S-T. Do you remember that? Yeah. It was like a peer-to-peer type video streaming service that was invented by the guys who did Skype and, and they were like, oh, you want more money? Well, you got to be more like Juiced. It was, they're stupid.

It's absolutely stupid money. And their whole model is built on get market share. So how much money do you need? Oh, and, and, and as they always say, the more showing a profit is a bad idea. You've got to have substantial losses and say, you're going for market share, and then you'll figure out the business model. We'll skip ahead and play clip four. Oh, sorry. It wasn't ready. I didn't have it in player B. Here we go. Okay. Generative AI is incredibly unprofitable.

One dollar earned for every two and a quarter spent, something like that. Two bucks, 35 from my last estimates. Open AI's board last year said they needed even more capital than they had imagined. And the CEO, Sam Altman, recently said that they're losing money on their plan to make money, which is the chat GPT pro plan. What is that? So this is where the funny stuff happens. Open AI's premium subscriptions make up about, it's like 73% of their revenue.

The majority of their revenue does not come from people actually in store using their models to do stuff, which should tell you everything. Because if most of their money doesn't come from people using their very useful, allegedly, models, well, that means that they're either not charging enough, or they're not that useful. I think Altman said he wasn't charging enough. He isn't charging enough. But their premium subscriptions have limits to the amount that you can use them.

Well, their $200 a month chat GPT plus subscription allows you to use their models as much as you'd like, and they're still losing money on them. And the funny thing is the biggest selling point is their reasoning models, 01 and 03. 03, by the way, is their new thing that is just throwing even more compute at the problem. It's yet to prove itself to actually be any different other than just slightly better at the benchmarks and also costing $1,000 for 10 minutes. It's insane.

But the reason they're losing that is because the way they've built their models is incredibly inefficient. And now that DeepSeek has come along, it's not really obvious why anyone would pay for chat GPT plus at all. But the fact that they can't make money on a $200 a month subscription, that's the kind of thing that you should get fired from a company for. They should boot you out the door. Well, there's two things at play here. One is the cost to train the model, which CheapSeek claims.

What are we drinking? Show beer. This is a LaCroix orange. Oh, I like those. It's a little different. Yeah. Not as good as a vanilla, but it's good. So one is the cost to train the model, which the CheapSeek Chiners say they did this with $5.5 million maybe. You know, there's model distillation. There's all kinds of things that can be done. And people benchmark this by saying, what is this podcast about? You know, okay, that's not really a benchmark.

The second thing I believe is more complicated is which in theory should work. It's like if now it's just to run the thing. And I think that's where they're running into trouble is to run it, to run the model. I mean, it's just much more efficient to decentralize that. I mean, I run R1 V3 here at home on my start nine. You can load it up and the system does it perfectly. It's not super fast, but you know, it's on a start nine box. And you know, it's like, it's okay.

I mean, I'm patient enough to wait and I'll read along with you typing your answer. And that will be able to do, you know, some images, which of course is really where the graphics cards come in. So their problem is, going back to what this guy says is, how useful is it? Is it really that? I mean, that's what I always say. It's like, okay, Darren O'Neill has been just knocking it out of the park on creating art for no agenda. We have the no agenda art generator.

And you know, the traditional artists are on blue sky now crying about how we've ruined their lives. And to some extent, that's true. But you know, he has good ideas and he's able to prompt jockey that into good results typically. But if he had to pay $200 a month, he wouldn't do it. Oh no, but that's what it truly costs. Yes, maybe more, maybe more, maybe more. Right. And if he runs it at home, it'll take 10 minutes to generate the image unless he gets some beefed up hardware and GPU stuff.

So yeah, I mean, I just haven't seen that much goodness come out of it yet, particularly because of the hallucinations and the error rate. The clip five is labeled the bubble. And go ahead and play that. So you described at the top that this bubble is going to burst. Right? How do you know? Why is it inevitable? I feel it in my soul, nothing is inevitable. However, these models are not getting better. They are getting around the same in different ways. Give me an example of that.

I mean, they're only getting better at benchmarks. Their actual ability to do new stuff, nothing new has happened. Look at what happened with Operator, their so -called agent. Operator is open AIs. It doesn't work, it sucks. You can use it if you use the chat. Thank you for your scientific insight. Have you ever tried to use it? Yeah, it doesn't work very well. It sometimes does not understand what it's looking at and just stops. It's just really funny that this company is worth $150 billion.

Every single time they release a product, there's no new capabilities. Operator by comparison for open AI is pretty exciting in the sense that it did something slightly different and also doesn't work. You know, I wonder... It's good, this is good. It did something slightly different but also doesn't work. I mean, the real problem here is the positioning. They never should have come out with chat GPT calling it artificial intelligence. That set the benchmark to such a...

It was a bad, bad, bad marketing strategy. Whereas I use, under the marketing heading of artificial intelligence, I use it three, four times a week for transcripts and it's pretty decent. But is that intelligence? No, it's voice recognition, which has been around since IBM sold that silly headset with... What was that thing called? I bought one. And you got your floppy disk to load the software and you could go, Hello, comma. And you had to do spaces between each words, you know, like... Period.

Here is a brisket... Backspace, backspace, backspace. Updates. Dragon, that's what he said. Yeah, dragon. Exactly, dragon. It just got better with speed. And so it's okay. And, you know, did I tell you the... Well, I don't want to interrupt your flow, but remind me to tell you about my art experiment that I did. Oh, okay. Yeah, the... So this reminds me and it hit me. It reminds me of Clubhouse. Yeah, whoo! That's going to... This is the new podcasting. This is...

Everyone's going to be doing this. This is podcast. This is podcasting. Hey, let me do the podcast keynote at the podcast conference, because I'm the guy behind. So clip five and a half. Play that. So what's the end game here? The end game was Microsoft saw ChatGPT was big and went, damn, we've got to make sure that's in Bing because it seems really smart. Google released Gemini because Microsoft invested in open AI and they wanted to do the same thing. Meta added a large language model.

They created an open source one themselves, Lama. And they did that because everyone else was doing GPT and transformer-based models and generative AI. Everyone just does the same thing in this industry. No one was thinking, can this actually do it? They all tell the same lies. Sundar Pichai went up at Google IO, the developer conference, and told this story about how an agent would help you return your shoes. Took a few minutes.

He went through this thing, talking about how it would autonomously go into your email and get you the return thing just handed to you. It'd be amazing. And then ended it by saying, this is totally theoretical. They are making stuff up, have put a lot of money into it, and now they don't know what to do.

All the king's horses and all the king's men don't seem to be able to get the valley to spit out one meaningful, mass market, useful product that actually changes the world other than damaging our power grid, stealing from millions of people, and boiling lakes. I thought you might like the boiling lakes. Yeah, that's perfect. But this is clubhouse though. It is totally clubhouse. The whole podcast industry poured money into replicating clubhouse. Twitter did it. Spotify did it with Green Room.

Everybody was just obsessed for about a year with clubhouse, live podcast rooms. And then it just vanished. Yes. And it's funny because our lit tag with the IRC chat is very successful. Yeah. Highly successful. Thousands of people use it. So the thing that is being touted, because of course I follow this and I am the AI skeptic, is cancer research. And this is what Larry, I mean, I played the whole Larry Ellis.

I think, didn't we play some of that on the board meeting where he's like, oh yeah, basically just, the doctor won't have to think about this. It'll send it off to the pharmacy. And like, okay, you just built middleware that connects APIs, fine. But I've talked to a medical imaging guy and I said, so how's AI? He says, well, they're just putting AI labels on stuff that we've been working on for decades, which is algorithms, you know, computer out.

And of course, with more speed, whether you use a GPU or not. I mean, it's like ASICs essentially. ASICs for mining is, you know, very powerful for one specific task. And so they use the, I forget what's the algorithm. It's the same thing that we use on ham radio. I mean, with 12 Watts, I can send my signal around the globe.

Someone in Japan can, listens to the signal and translates that into computer data and then can pick out my signal from something which is completely inaudible because of the algorithm. And so they've just improved algorithms. And so, yeah, now you can detect things you couldn't maybe see before in an image or maybe will never be able to see with your human eye, but it may be in there. And he says that just putting labels on it and charging three times the amount.

Well, I know one of my friends, his wife is a skin pathologist. And she was telling us a while back, she said, you know, what often happens in pathology is you're looking at a slide, you're looking at a cell culture or excuse me, a biopsy. And you really cannot, it's 50-50 whether or not this is cancer. Yeah. And the only thing, it's basically a coin toss. And what matters is okay, is this a biopsy from the cheek of a 22-year -old girl? Right.

Well, if that's the case and you say this is cancer and they go and cut this out, it could disfigure her forever. And was it really malignant? Yeah. You don't know. Like you're not gonna leave those decisions up to a computer. You're just not going to. So what I like is clip six where they talk about Stargate. Okay. The Trump Stargate. Yeah. Was that a cue? Okay, yes, cue.

Last week, Trump announced a $500 billion AI infrastructure plan called the Stargate Project, along with the CEOs of OpenAI, Oracle and SoftBank. And though it was announced at the White House, it's privately funded. President Trump still kind of wants to put his brand on it. Is this about him wanting to tap into that sweet, sweet masculine energy? Oh, this is what you do, by the way. Of course. It was a press conference. This is what you do as president. Of course.

Hey, look at this Japanese guy. He's going to put $100 billion, maybe, maybe not, into something. Yeah, yes. No, it's that sweet, sweet masculine energy, Brooke. No, it's just Trump doing what Trump does, which is getting other people to do stuff and then taking credit. There's no public money in it. And in fact, there's another little wrinkle. So it's not $500 billion. It's up to $500 billion. Another weird detail as well.

OpenAI has pledged to give $19 billion, according to the information, which they plan to raise through an equity sale and debt. Their largest round they've raised is $6 billion. Their company loses $5 billion a year. What is going on? Why do I have to talk about this nonsense with a straight face? It's all a performance. They're all tap dancing. And then DeepSea came along and did this and freaked them out so much because the whole thing's hollow.

I like the up to, it's up to $500 billion, because that's the podcast industry guaranteed minimum trick. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's always up to $60 million. That's exactly what it is. Oh, goodness. So I like, if you want to skip to- Well, I want them all, man. I want to hear them all. Are you kidding me? This is dynamite. And I'm stealing all these for no agenda on Sunday. This is great. Thanks for doing the work. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Value for value.

Clip seven is how DeepSea, so they exposed all of the incestuous financial sort of curtains that have shrouded the AI bubble in typical Silicon Valley fashion. Ah, this is the climate gate of artificial intelligence. Yes. Okay. It's an actual gloss onion. After the announcement of the Stargate project, Elon Musk took to social media to criticize the project. After all, he has his own AI empire. I wonder, does DeepSea threaten all AI tech companies equally?

Every single one, because they're all building the same thing. There's very little difference between GPT-4.0, OpenAI's model, and Anthropic's Claude Sonnet 3.5, and Google Gemini. There are various versions of them, but they're all kind of the same. So DeepSea's V3 model is the one that's competitive with all those. And it's like 50 times cheaper. It's so much cheaper. And now it's open source, so everyone can build that. Now, Elon Musk's situation is even weirder.

He just bought 100,000 GPUs with Dell. Very bizarre. A partnership with Michael Dell there. Dell makes them? Dell makes the server architecture. They go inside. So Dell had the data center. But nevertheless, Grok and x.ai, Grok being the chatbot that is attached to Twitter, it's not actually really obvious what any of that is meant to do. Kind of similar to how the AI additions to Facebook and WhatsApp and Instagram don't really make any sense either.

But it's actually good to bring that up because everyone is directionlessly following this. They're like, we're all doing large language models, right? We're all going to do the same thing, right? Just like they did with the metaverse. Now, Google did stay out of the metaverse, by the way. Microsoft bought bloody Activision and wrote metaverse on the side. Mark Zuckerberg lost like $45 billion on the metaverse.

And putting aside the hyperscalers, there were like hundreds of startups that raised billions of dollars for the metaverse because everyone's just following each other. The valley is despicable right now. It's full of people that build things because everyone else is building something. They don't build things to solve real problems. And I think this is actually a larger economic problem too. Why is AI in everything? No one bloody knows. Yeah, I do.

Because the stock market needs the mag seven to keep it propped up and keep everyone fat and happy. And that's exactly what it is. And I'm still waiting for the pivot to quantum. Well, because we got millions of baby boomers to support for the next, you know, 20 years. So you got to keep the stock market and the 401ks going. 401ks going, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and the automatic investing of the, you know, the target date funds and all this. It's all financial shenanigans. Yeah, breaking news.

It's all breaking news. Breaking news, Dave. Breaking news. You know, clip eight is... These are good, by the way. I really appreciate this. This is good. Because you can apply this to the endless video versus audio podcasting conversation. It's the same bull crap. And, you know, Dan Granger, who does the Media Roundtable, I like him actually. You know, we're on very... I want to have him on the show. I want him on the show. Let's do that.

Because, yes, I'll reach out to him and ask him to be on our show. Because, you know, he pinged me. He said, you know, we're going to do a whole series on video versus audio. And he's on the audio side, by the way. Yeah, I know that. And he said, we can do a whole series. And I'm like, I'm not going to sit in one of these for eight weeks in a row talking about this nonsense. I can come in and say, it's bull crap. Thank you very much. I'll see you next week. Because that's what it is.

And it was beautiful to hear Power today, as Sam and James were talking about video. And so, of course, it's all about the research. I mean, as long as you pump out white papers as shills in the New York Times or New York Magazine or Wired or what's the... Vox. No, what's the other one I'm thinking of? What's the... The information? No, I'm thinking about... Cinema 4? No, the one that Nilay Patel is... Oh, The Verge. The Verge. Thank you. You know, just keep pumping out research.

And of course, Google is funding a lot of this. There's no doubt. Let's do some more white papers. Let's show everyone that podcasting only happens on YouTube. And then we... And I'll say we collectively devolve into an endless conversation about, well, they're not really watching. They're doing this. It's the everything app. But when it really gets down to it, we're going back to the 1950s with this conversation. MTV did not kill the radio star. It did not.

In fact, radio had an incredible boom with MTV. It worked beautifully. Oh, I bet. In concert, they worked very well together. And, you know, radio, it's still... Audio is still a significant... It always will be a significant piece in people's... I mean, go ahead. Would you watch a guy reading an audio book? That's basically what a video podcast is. And it's just research papers. And, you know, and then, you know, James is always saying, we should have a podcast advertising bureau.

Well, yeah, we should. No one seems to want to do it. I'm not going to do it. But, you know, it's just marketing. It's marketing, marketing, marketing. And people fall into it and they believe it. And then, you know, we all buy cameras and, you know, whoa, we got to do this. And it's just not true. It's just not true. But it does hurt. It hurts people who are dependent upon advertising. So it definitely hurts. Anyway, so it's more of the same. It's a follow me. It's a me too type thing.

And that's also, in a way, uniquely American. You know, I remember living in the Netherlands and people said, when I was a kid, like, wow, man, people in America are strange. What do you mean? Well, they pay $100 for sneakers and they carry water in a plastic bottle that they buy for, at the time, $2. And the Europeans couldn't understand it. It's like, it's just sneakers, right? Yeah, but it says Nike. Okay. And then what's up with the water? Well, I mean, it's better water.

This is what I tell Melissa all the time, is if you, when she, my wife, when she sells her art, I'm like, you, the American mentality is, the cheaper it is, the less desirable it is. That's right. You got to charge more, check that price up, baby. Exactly. Do you need me to talk to her? Because I know how to talk about that. Yeah. Make it more expensive, man. Yes. It's quality. It's a quality signal. Yes, exactly. Oh, it's expensive. It must be good. Yeah, precisely. Precisely. Clip eight.

Deep Seek has proven that this can be done cheaper and more efficiently. They've not proven there's a new business model. They've not made any new features. And there's an argument right now, a very annoying argument, where it says, well, if the price comes down, right, that means that more things will happen because more people will say, Yevon's Paradox was quoted by Satya Nadella, and Yevon's Paradox says, well, as the price of a resource comes down, so the use of it increases.

That's not what's going to happen here. No one has been not using generative AI because it was too expensive. In fact, these companies have burned billions of dollars doing so. A third of venture funding in 2024 went into AI. These companies have not been poor. And now we're in this weird situation where we might have to accept, oh, I don't know. Maybe this isn't a multi-trillion dollar business.

Had they treated it as a smaller one, had they said this might be like a $50 billion industry, they would have gone about it a completely different way. They never would have put billions of dollars into GPUs. They might have put a few billion and then focused up, kind of like how DeepSea went, we only have so many and they only do so much, so we will do more with them. No, American startups became fat and happy. But even when you put that aside, there was never a business model with this.

Come on, it's just so dull. Give me real innovation, not this warmed up nonsense. I like that he has that British accent because that's so much more believable. You know, that's what the news does. Oh, it's a guy with the British accent. Oh, this must be true. And so I like it. Yeah, he's very legit, this guy. Yeah, I liked what he's saying here because I think what he's saying is the Silicon Valley is addicted to hyper profit and it ruins everything they attempt to do.

If they were sane, if Silicon Valley was sane and not financially warped, I consider them to be financially warped in the same way that the military industrial complex is financially warped. But Boeing, Raytheon, these companies are no longer able to actually price things in a way that a real market would understand. They've been so warped by government money that they've just lost the ability to participate in anything that resembles a free market. And that's the way that Silicon Valley is.

They can't understand that some things are just maybe a $10 million industry instead of a $5 billion industry. Well, so and to answer Selassie's question, he's like, well, a lot of AI talk, not much about podcasting 2.0. Well, we're relating it to the business that we are in.

And I'm not surprised, but the whole idea that this was the podcast election, which was combated very, very heavily by established mainstream media outlets has not resulted in any projection of higher, except for Prof G, in higher, he thinks it's going to be a trillion dollar business for some reason, in any higher revenues or anything. You know, these are all market forces. And podcasting, even this $1.9 billion or $2 billion, forget the billions, forget about it. Who gives a crap?

That's what's so beautiful. That's why podcasting is still here, because it's not about money. The market forces have always tried to make it about money. And who has the most viewers or listeners or subscribers or likers or whatever? And who makes the most money? Which is also a lot of lies going on there. It's a communications channel that is rock solid. That's what it is. I spent the first 15 minutes of the show talking about Eero and decentralizing pod paying.

30 minutes, 30 minutes, not even 15. You know, play ISO, that seems kind of stupid. That seems kind of stupid. Okay. That seems kind of stupid. Ah, you need to edit that a little bit. I tried to tighten it up. Okay. I can do that. Don't worry about it. The clip nine is, I think, maybe the quintessential clip. So there will be tens of thousands of people laid off, just like happened in 2022 and 2023 from major tech companies. On top of that, I'm not scared of the bubble bursting.

I'm scared of what happens afterwards. Once this falls apart, the markets are going to realize that the tech industry doesn't really have any growth markets left. The reason that tech companies have had such incredible valuations is because they've always been able to give this feeling of eternal growth, that software can always magic up more money. It's why the monopolies are so powerful.

They've had just endless cash to throw at endless things, like Google own the marketplace where you buy ads, the marketplace where you sell them, and the way you host the ads themselves. They've never really had to work particularly hard other than throw money at the problem and exclude other people. Once it becomes obvious that they can't come up with the next thing that will give them 10% to 15% to 20 % revenue growth year over year, the markets are going to rethink how you value tech stocks.

And when that happens, you're going to see them get pulverized. I don't think any company is shutting down. I think Meta is dead in less than 10 years just because they're a bad company. But right now, the markets believe that tech companies can grow forever and punish the ones that don't. There are multiple tech companies that just lose money, but because they grow revenue, that's fine. What happens if the growth story dies? Like a 2008 housing crash, but specifically for tech. And I fear it.

I hope I'm wrong on that one. The human cost will be horrible. He makes a mistake here, in my opinion. Meta, specifically Facebook, not Instagram, but Facebook, they have completely taken all local, the classifieds, local advertising, newspapers. Meta has taken all of that. And that is very valuable. So I don't think they're going to be dead in 10 years. It's valuable, but it's, you know, my Facebook marketplace, it's valuable, but it's also so polluted that I see people just giving up on it.

Well, I'm not talking about Facebook marketplace. I'm talking about people going in and local businesses making sure that ads are showing up for their local communities. It's very sophisticated compared to what there was. And I live in a small town, so I see how it happens. And I see how it works. And I see that everyone puts all of their money, not into the one publication we have, the one local newspaper, but all into Facebook.

And they're seeing success and they have measurement, etc. They're probably overpaying. But I think that's, you know, who cares? I don't really care one way or the other. But as this relates to podcasting, it's the same thing. Well, we only have 4 million. It's gone down by 10,000 episodes or whatever. Podcasting should be a million podcasts of which 100,000 are national successful podcasts and 900 ,000 should be local. Everything else is just blather. It's blather.

Well, I think the whole point of all this is eventually all the games end. And we saw this with the podcast bubble that Spotify created from 2018 to 2022. Eventually all the games, the financial games end because they're not sustainable. And you'll always have to come to that payday. And Silicon Valley has had 20 years of like financial refulgence. But it's- Refulgence? What does that mean? Refulgence? It's like brightness, like shininess. I think sparkling maybe.

Yes. Radiance, resplendence, brightness, brilliance, or glow. Yes. Okay, good. That cost me 25 cents to ask ChatGPT that. It cost them $2.35. They sent me five bucks. So, I mean, they've had 20 years of that. Google IPO'd in 2004. And so, but it's destined to end. I mean, it can't continue. There's always going to be this sort of like Dorian Gray style confrontation with the ugly underbelly of this thing. And it happened in podcasting. It's going to happen in AI.

It's going to happen with all these things that look like magic money machines. My favorite is flying cars, personal, you know, human drone transportation. I mean, that's my favorite. I just look at this stuff. Remember those guys who all of a sudden, look, it flies on its side. It's brilliant. Where are they? Gone. Anyway, that's my presentation. And I'm going to send the slide deck to Silas. You don't have, do you want to play number 10 here? Oh, yeah, you can play it. Go for it.

Even outside of the depression that might be experienced in the tech world, there are so many pension funds out there that may have investments. You're painting a picture of, you know, the housing crash of 2008. I actually am. I wrote a piece about that fairly recently. It was at Sherwood, and it was about how open AI is the next Bear Stearns. And if you look back at that time, and you mentioned the people that might say I'm wrong, that I should just wait, that these things will work it out.

You could see stories like from David Leonard over at New York Times and others talking about how there's not going to be a housing crash, and maybe even a crash should be good. But there's nothing to worry about. There were people at that time talking about how there was nothing to worry about, and they were doing so in detail and using similar rhetoric. Just wait and see. Things are always good, right? What goes up never comes down. That's the phrase, right?

And it's horrifying because it doesn't have to be like this. These companies could be sustainable. They could have modest 2% to 3 % growth. Google as a company basically prints money. They could just run a stable, good Google that people like and make billions and billions and billions of dollars. They would be fine. But no, they must grow. And we are the users, and our planet too, our economy too. We are the victims of the rot economy, and they are the victors. These men are so rich.

Sam Altman, if open AI collapses, he'll be fine. He's a multi-billionaire with a $5 million car. These people, they're doing this because they know they will be fine, that they'll probably walk into another cushy job. It's sickening, and it's cynical. Well, this is where the opportunity is for Podcasting 2.0. We have such a beautiful toolbox that is so rich with beautiful features. And I look at what Sam Sethi is. He's on fire, man. He's doing all kinds of stuff, including now landing pages.

What am I hearing? I don't know. I was scratching my head. Was that it? Was it this? Oh, no, it's me. I'm sorry. It's me. It's me. I don't know how that happened. It's not me. It's you. No, it's me. Honey, it's me. Really, it's not you. It's really me. But imagine what we can ignite with the lit tag by really rolling out Podping, by getting chapters the way 2.0 does them into more apps. Now, it's such an opportunity for excitement, for creative people to do things. You know, we took our own...

Well, we didn't, but we took our own sidestep there. Like, oh, AI. There's going to be AI voices and AI this and AI this. That is all that. It was fantastic. You just have to think podcast. It'll poop out a podcast for you. But the real beauty we have to make such fantastic experiences, also for the advertisers, as we talked about last week, with if chapters really worked everywhere, imagine just saying, you know, just tap on the image in your podcast app and it'll take you right to the offer.

It can be personalized. I mean, there's all these things. And, you know, there's A, there's no money here for anyone to get investment. And that is, of course, a problem. But think like the Chinese. They couldn't get the chips. They thought differently. They figured out different ways to do it. They beg, borrowed, and stole. They, you know, they took a little from here to add something there. You know, necessity is the mother of invention.

And I think we need to continuously have that, you know, that grinding attitude to just keep moving forward. We've seen it all work. It's all there. We got one win with transcripts. We need more. And Apple really has an opportunity to reignite podcasting and ignite an entire ecosystem of beautiful apps that do things differently, but beholden to the same new features that everybody can implement in their own way. Apple, what are you doing? Listen to me. But podcasting seems to be prone to this.

It seems to be prone to this sort of FOMO, jump on every single bandwagon thing. You know, Clubhouse, you know, an example we can, you know, we had earlier, you know, the AI generated podcasts. It's just like every single new thing that comes down the pipe, they just get duped by it over and over again. But we can say we, we don't have to say they. I mean, we're part of the industry. Us talking about those things only helps it. Well, it's Lucy and the football.

Yes. It's just over and over again. Anyway, a couple of side notes. The index, so I think I mentioned last week, Buzzsprout, Tom contacted me and said Buzzsprout was having some errors with the index API. Yes, the compression issue. Yeah. And you know, so they went away and then they started getting them again. And so I just went in there into Cloudflare and created a compression rule and disabled compression for their user agent. And that fixed the issue. They've not had any more errors.

Now, I really would like to know why that is the case. So they no longer receive stuff with compression. Right. They, their responses to the, to the, only their responses are going, are being delivered with no compression. I mean, it's just GZIP compression. Why would that be a, I don't understand why that could possibly be a problem. And the compression. What I thought might go. No, no, go ahead, please. What I thought might be happening was there was an error under the covers.

And meaning that like, maybe, maybe the connection was getting closed prematurely. And, and you were getting like maybe half of a response. And that the compression error was really sort of like masking what the true problem was. The true problem was you just didn't have a complete response. But, but that doesn't seem to be the case because turning off the compression fixed all the errors. Well, Eric PP in the, in the boardroom says what client are they using? Is that, could that be the issue?

Uh, I, I, I mean, I don't know. It's, it's, uh, I think they use Ruby on there. Uh, I know that. Oh, Ruby on Rails. Oh, well, please don't, don't get me started. They're a Ruby shop. So I'm sure it's some sort of Ruby gem. I don't know, man, that, that one was, that one is still a mystery to me. But then another thing is I found an error. And fixed a bug in the API, uh, episodes by feed ID endpoint.

So whenever you used the, there's a, there's an optional flag on that endpoint, uh, called newest. So if you get, if you give it the newest parameter and a list of podcast index IDs, it will just give you the newest episode from all of those podcasts, right? And there's also another parameter called full text. So by default, the index limits, uh, the description field that it returns to a hundred words. Now that's, it's not characters. That's a hundred words.

And if you give it the full text parameter, it will give you the full, uh, description of each episode, which could be quite massive. Well, we limited on the index to 3000 characters. Okay. Um, and so it'll give you the full 3000 back. Uh, so I was looking for some Godcaster stuff I was doing. I was looking and seeing why are we only getting back? I'm giving it full text, but why are we only getting back a thousand characters instead of the free, the full 3000? And I found a bug, found a typo.

So that's fixed now. Don't know how long that's been there, but. Bitpunk FM in the boardroom raised his hand politely and said, why do we care about Apple when we have Podverse at all, uh, existing? Well, because it live, it really, when Apple does something, it helps everybody. They will never be able to compete with the small agile apps and apps focused on certain types of users ever. But when you have that attitude, yeah, then we can just sit here and circle jerk all day long.

You need someone like an Apple is the only one I would trust to pick up some of these features and say, well, look at this. Because, you know, once you've got to talk to podcasters again, Podverse and fountain are highly used by the no agenda audience. Why? Because I promote it because I tell them to use, I tell them it's better. I tell them they've got all these different things that they can do. And we saw this with transcripts. Yes. You know, it's a transcript.

There were so many people, so many, uh, podcasting 2.0 apps adopted transcripts and it didn't stop us from putting it in play. But then as soon as Apple adopted it, you saw it just went wildfire all across. I mean, everybody adopted. And it's better to have Apple adopt something because, you know, the universe of mobile devices is Android. And there's no, for my money, no clear winner. There's plenty of opportunity for someone to pick that up.

And, you know, even PodLP, you know, when it comes to these alternative, small like India and all these other types of markets where they have different types, they have non Android, not well, what is the, what is the operating system they use? What's the kind of iOS? Yeah. Which I think is, has Google investment, but doesn't really matter. So yeah, Chad, I've said it legitimizes, it legitimizes the feature. And then, you know, people, people use overcast for a reason. Why? I love saying this.

Why? Because you're off the chain. Yeah. I like answering my own question. Why? Because it has certain audio features, people like people of, and they're very passionate about it. So, you know, it's, there's sometimes this defeatist attitude is a little bothersome. I mean, granted, I'm not, well, I am technically now a podcast player developer, although I'm not doing the development, but I'm, I mean, you know, we're building something like that, not an app. Right.

Um, and yeah, we've put in all kinds of features. It's not an Appy app. It's not an Appy app. No, it's not an Appy app. Speaking of Appy apps, do you have time to thank some people? I don't know what your, uh, your schedule is. I don't always get time to thank people. We are value for value, which means your support goes to podcast index, keeps everything running on the index. All these features everybody wants, all the end points, all the compression testing, et cetera.

Actually, that's just Dave. Dave gets no money for this, which is great. Yay. He's a yay. He says, um, we appreciate it when you boost in and people have did hear my call. And here are a couple of the boosts that came in while we're doing the show live. Salty crayon. One, two, three, four. He says, I TBR. David's been a while since you mentioned it. What's the latest bedroom killer you were reading on the nightstand lately? Pinging the pongs, juicing the Jason's. What is it? What is room killer?

Yeah. That was my nickname in high school. How did he know that? That's a show title too. Bedroom killer. Um, the, uh, the, what I'm reading right now is, uh, Don, uh, Dante's Inferno. Oh, divine, divine comedy. Interesting. Oh, that is a classic. That was a real classic. I realized the other way I had the other day, I had not read it. And, uh, I had to fix that problem. See loss on Linux 4,200. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Dreb Scott with a mini Striper boost.

77, 77. He says go podcasting sats from Sam. Ah, this is a new account. I'm presuming since it's coming from true fans, that's Sam Sethi, uh, three, five, seven, six. He says Apple is the new IBM. Tim Cook is the new Steve Ballmer. Tim has missed all innovation, search AI, cars, glasses, folding phones. Their revenue remains high, but sales of iPhones are dropping. Google said the same X wrap, or maybe it means crap new products and no innovation. Yeah. There hasn't been any real innovation.

I think the smartphone was it. And I see that guy, what's his name? Jensen from NVIDIA NVIDIA. Oh yeah. Yeah. The leather jacket, leather jacket walking around on stage. Like he's Steve jobs. Give me a break. That's so pathetic. Salty crayon. Rove ducks. 22, 22. How do Dave and Adam just sending some value since the ISO of Adam last week about nobody's boosting. It still works in the pipe. Yeah. Lyceum with a 1776 boost as a poor capitalist at the moment.

I have to wait to send you a Rand's day boost of 221,905 Satoshis until later this year or on February 2nd, 2026. We can wait for more information. Please listen to episode 94 Rand's day on February 2nd of the secular foxhole. I hope it's okay with the Liberty boost of 1776. Of course, best premises, Martin Linda's cook. Thank you very much, Martin. And Eric PP came in with 3333 when I complained and no note, just a straight up boost from Curio Castor. Thank you very much.

And I have hit the delimiter. If you want a bonus book, the one I mentioned last week, the master and his emissary by Ian McGilchrist. Yes. That's a, that's a top, top notch book. I recommend it. Okay. Um, right out of the gate. We've got, uh, the boys from rss.com 2025, $2,025. Thank you so much. Well, there's a month of server stuff right there. Awesome. Thank you guys. We appreciate that. Keeping it rolling from Ben and Alberto. They say, uh, hello, 2025. Yes. Happy new year to everyone.

Improving podcasting one tag at a time. Look forward to a great year with everyone in this great project. Go podcasting your friends at rss.com. Yeah. I'll roll one out for that. Thank you, brothers. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Uh, let's see. That's the, is that what we got? Was that the PayPal we got on the pipe? Yes. We got the PayPal. So, uh, let me look at boosts here. Cole McCormick, Satchel Richards. Uh, I got something special. I think the boardroom will like.

I spoke with one of the co-creators, Emily Hughes of a Bitcoin board game called block hunters, block hunters, block hunters. It's like monopoly, but uses the structure of how Bitcoin is mined and transacted into a 30 minute game. Whoever has the most Bitcoins wins. It was like, it's like real life. Whoever has the most Bitcoin. That's right. There's even a character you can play as who uses V4V to earn money for their art.

Emily and I talked about the game, her mental health, psychedelic journey, God and parallels between Bitcoin and spirituality. Listen to episode one 45 of America plus. If you're interested, I think all of you will enjoy it. I actually tagged that episode because, uh, you know, I belong to the thank God for Bitcoin group and they have, they see a lot of connections there. Yes. I haven't listened to it yet, but it's in the pipe. We've got Todd from Northern Virginia.

That's a big satchel of Richard's one, one, one, one, one. Thank you. Side through podcast index. He says, please accept my small contribution to Dave's Redis database fund. Good luck and go podcast. Yes. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Very, very nice. Boost. Gene Bean, 22, 22. He says, Dave, in case you don't know, you can get one password for teams free for open source projects. You could use it for credentials that need to be shared between you, Adam and others.

That, you know, that's something we haven't set up that we really need to handle the dead, the dead man's switch. Oh, I had a thought. I had a thought about that yesterday. I was like, you know, am I going to have to call Melissa, ask her to cut off your thumb or gouge out an eye for some kind of biometric access to the past? Yeah. We should really set that up, brother. I know. You don't want to have to have that call. No, no. Like, could you cut off his thumb? I'm sorry.

I hate to bother you, but I need to get into the server. Can you sit down at the console and tell me what you see? I'll walk you through it. Okay. Yeah. Just type SSH space. Catch, uh, see Miramorals podcast. That's our buddy Kyron, 22, 22 through fountain. He says catching up on some episodes. Not going to lie of all the microphone talk. I've never noticed any difference in Dave's mic. Oh, well, thanks. Thanks. All your effort is wasted on my uncultured swine ears. I doubt it.

You're very cultured, brother. Thank you. Uh, Oh, what did I do? I lost. Oh, Oh, there it is. No, that was almost, that was almost bad. Uh, almost lost a CSB's note. Oh, uh, 14, three 85 sass through fountain. CSB says, howdy, Dave and Adam. Are you into BDSM? Do you like pain? Well, today I want to recommend you movie entitled real pain. That's available for purchase on digital platforms, including as Blu-ray disc and as download. And recently also for streaming on Hulu.

And it has two nominations for Oscars 2025. I'll donate you $55 per Oscar one to celebrate. Yo CSB. This is very interesting. CSB, he always promotes other podcasts, uh, with his boosts. And, um, the one he sent into curry and the keeper this week, he said, how do you love birds? Tina Adam this week. I'd like to recommend to you and your audience and movie titled real pain. So he has some stake in this thing. It's available on digital platforms for purchase.

And a Hulu two weeks is nominated for two Oscars. And if they win, I'll donate $115 per Oscar. This, he sounds like an investor. I don't know what it is, but we need to get to the bottom of this. And then it's like, you know, Dana Brunetti, right? Yeah. I know Dana Brunetti. Well, he actually is a member of the Academy. He can vote. He can vote. Can you talk to him? Like what is going on? CSB? What is happening with this movie? Daniel J. Lewis says CSBDSM. Yeah, there's a nice, nice, nice, nice.

That wraps it up. Now we got some now we get monthly. He's got four months. He's good. Do we get Dreb Scott? $15. Thank you, Dreb. Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. Chris Bernardik, $5. And Pedro Goncalves, $5. Thank you all very much. You can boost us on any of the modern podcast apps. Find those at podcastapps.com. If you prefer to send us fiat fund coupons, you can go to podcastindex.org. Scroll down to the bottom, past our freedom text, and you'll see a red donate button. Hit that.

I'll take you right to the PayPal. Thank you so much for keeping this grand experiment running. We're now at, what are we, a fifth year now? Fifth year? Oh, it's yeah. I think it is. I think we're about five years. Episode 209 of the board meeting. And thank you everybody for being here. We appreciate you. And continue to fight the good fight, people. Don't get hurt. I'm allowed once every five years to have 10 clips of On The Media A talking about AI. I think you can do it twice a year.

I'm good with that. Anything about On The Media is good with me. I'm scheduling this. I'm scheduling the next one for August. Have a great weekend, Brother Dave. See you, man. All right, everybody. Thank you so much. We'll see you next Friday right here for Podcasting 2.0. Why's that so cool? You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information. Go podcasting! That seems kind of stupid.