Episode 189: All Carrot and No Stick!

the freedom of all podcasters around the globe. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who issues more licenses than the US game and wildlife agency. Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr. Dave Jones. Freedom, baby, is all about freedom.

at look at this. Yo, yo, cat, yo. Sly slide. Look at this. Look at this. Lightning. Sly said that could be a nice backup if, if anybody decided to de platform people from PayPal, which they were doing,

became podcasting 2.0 it is a community. It is not Adam, it is not Dave, it is not driven by anything other than a bunch of rag tag ragged muffins who showed up to the orchestra with a banjo

off from there. And then, you know, all of a sudden, we're trying to solve some of the world's biggest problems when the only problem we ever wanted to solve was for that, that lonely podcaster who as who made a boo boo and son something that the Silicon Valley people would not like, and they took him away. By the way, look at what's happening in the UK. Now want to bet the podcasts are going to be de platformed over there in the UK. Oh, yeah. Oh for sure, yeah. Has anyone chat the the UK

apples, apple, iTunes podcast thing? I'm a Bobby yet. So that's all that's all that we ever wanted to do. We never wanted to do any more, any less. We didn't want to create any anything additional. It was everybody else who came in and we said, hey, that's cool. That's cool. Yo. We'll talk about it. We'll do a board meeting. That's it. And some people went and said, I'll market it. And it turns out

really, yay, yay. Turns out it's really hard, really hard podcasting two.org is kind of stalled, so and I was reminded of of a couple things. So we are a rag tag, bunch of rag muffins. Yeah,

different when you when you learn the true history. So we went to Plymouth, Massachusetts, which is best known for the Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock. And we went now, we went to see that we didn't see the Plymouth Well, the Plymouth Rock, this is supposed to be the rock that the Mayflower. By the way, there's a Mayflower too, man. You consider there were 102 passengers on that thing. He is like that was no fight for 66 days with no

windows, chickens, goats, everything on board. Very tight, no good six, only beer to drink, whatever they were living in tough conditions. And so they came ashore, and 95 years later, some, some dude went, you know, I think it was that rock, that one. And they said, okay, cool. Well, we'll, we'll put 1602 on it, or 1620 on it, and we'll put it over here, and we'll build the thing around it. But we don't really know if that was the rock. It wasn't the rock. It's a dumb rock, the rock

the largest single granite structure in America. Never heard of it, and it is, in effect, a guide to America, and never heard of it either. Oh, man, you have to look it up. So it has multiple it's a statue of this woman standing with her finger pointed toward the sky, and her name, it's all engraved. Her name is Faith. And on the side, there's four sides to it. One is law, one is morality, one is education, and then the final

one is liberty. And the Liberty man is looking out over the harbor, and it gives an explanation of what we knew, what America was comprised of,

British are coming. Yeah, the red coats, that's right. And so this and so Reverend Clark had taught the the congregation there how to load their muskets, and they went on the Lexington green, and the British, there was 30 guys, and 800 British solder soldiers show up. Okay? And they stood their ground, and they the British went away. They said, You know what, we can't we're not going to fight these guys. And I think eight of them

died. And it's a reminder, and it even has this huge mass with a big flag on top says, birthplace of American liberty. And it reminded me that even with 30 people with muskets and you know, and half a bullet between them, can stand up against the big powers that be, that, my friends, is podcasting 2.0 we are that ragtag group, and we can stand up against them, and they will eventually just go away or not, doesn't matter. They will not get rid of us, is my point. They cannot get

rid of us. They will not get rid of us. Now, of course, if we try to play their games, it's going to be a very disappointing journey, which is where I think sometimes we get stuck in. And I just wanted to reiterate that we are here for for liberty, the liberty of podcasting, the liberty for anyone to say what they want to say, and for it to be available wherever you get

your podcasts. That's it. That's all that we ever set out to do, and I think we're succeeding greatly, and I'm very proud of everybody for contributing as it comes to podcasting point 2.0, and what that is and what that means, it's up to you, and it's up to each individual podcaster to tell their audience, how to support them, what podcast apps to use, how to listen. That's what it's about. There's nothing we can do to beat Apple or Spotify at the games they're playing, because they're just

playing their games. You. We are here to support the liberty of the podcasters who just want a podcast.

honestly, it just was kind of the same thing over and over. So just pulled sort of one exempt a, like, an example clip that kind of sums up the whole thing. But before we get into that, like, I mean, I'll just, I'm probably, here's what I'll do. I'll build, I'm going to build a ROB sandwich. Okay, okay. So the the the way, the way you do in his show business, to my understanding, is, you, you, you do what you do, what's called Building a sandwich. You, when you critique somebody, you give,

you start out giving them the good. You say something good about them. Then you say the thing that you that's negative, and then you finish it up with something good, like, Hey, Joe, great job on that line. I would love to we call

with with him. So I'll say, you know, so I'll start, I'll lay down the first slice of bread and say he's, he's been at Lipson forever and and I mean, this is I'm being truthful here. I'm being honest with my feelings. Nobody stays in a position for that long without having had shown results, right? So he's clearly, wasn't

doing and are able to show results. The other thing that I thought he was right about, so I listened to the whole thing, and, you know, it's it, it you you can't, if you just pull out clips of stuff, sometimes it's not, you know, it doesn't give you a sense of the whole thing. So I listened to the whole episode, and he had something to say about about making money and advertising and censorship and this kind of thing. And one point he made before they started really talking about 2.0

much is he said, um, there's an advertiser out there. I'm kind of paraphrasing. There's an advertiser out there for everyone you know. So you know, if you have, and he used the example of Joe Rogan. I mean, Joe, you know, hey, you could use the example of call her daddy as well. I mean, these call her daddy is a nasty show. I mean, they talk about all kinds of nasty stuff all the time, nasty. Yes, it's not exactly brand safe. No, neither is a lot of stuff Rogan does is

not brand safe. I mean. But there's tons of quote, not brand safe shows that are doing just fine on advertising. And

first day that we've existed. I'm not sure exactly what it is or why, but it's, it seems to have been there a long time, um, and and listening to their discussions of 2.0 like, I guess the only thing that I can the way I would sum it up, is saying this, it's like listening to somebody describe your political

candidate of choice. And they get in, they just and they get every single thing wrong, like it was, every tag that they discussed, every podcast namespace, tag that they discussed, was just completely wrong the way they described it, you know? And that's, that's, there's only one way that happens is you have done no research. Or,

Chinese investors that were in jail. Oh no, there's a cap table.

your audience to partake in what you are creating. End Quote, it's a nice option, but there are so many other ways to notify your audience that you're going live. Most are presenting out notifications from the live apps you're going to be live in. They all support that.

complete misunderstanding of how that tag works. And in this, this is a good example, the live item tag, the because, the because the writer of the letter said you can be notified in the app when the show goes live, they don't have any they don't have any understanding that the reason you're getting notified

is because you're listening in the podcast app. They, they they're still thinking that you get notified through some sort of push notification, and then you switch over to YouTube, and so they don't understand that the live stream is in the feed, right and the podcast app itself is you can listen right there. So that's why you're getting notified of a live stream, just like you get notified by your podcast app of a new episode, because the because you're listening there in the app,

you're not having to switch to some other app. So they went into this complicated talk about, you know, when we use email to notify people when we're going to go live and we put in a link to our YouTube channel and all this kind of it's like, this is, this is a complete misunderstanding. And that was just that. That was my biggest beef with this whole thing, is that I don't, I don't mind anybody having a difference of opinion about the actual way that any of this works. You

could look at this. You could look at any of the standards and say any of the tags and say, Okay, look what just like like James is a good example. He has a couple of tags that he just doesn't like, you know, but, but he understands what the tags do in his in his criticisms are from an actual, accurate

understanding of what they do, not from just hearsay. And that's where you have a problem, is when you think is when you're just listening and you don't fully understand, and then you just throw out a hot take it, you end up completely getting it all wrong.

quite amazing. So this company has gone through. I mean, I've started companies, I've been owner, I've taken a company public. I've done acquisitions, all of it, all of it, all of it is pain, particularly if you're public, whether you're a pink slip, OTC, NASDAQ, whatever it is, you have to report numbers. I mean, the company is the focus of the people in the company. It's so I mean, when your stock is rising, everyone's like, Yay, great. And when it's not, it's like, I'm underwater. Here.

Everyone gets depressed. You see it throughout the hallways. You integrate a new company. People have to get fired. Things have to be put together. You know, it's a it's all pain. It's very, very painful. And, and this is in general, just, you know, podcasting. Once you bring in the advertising into your walls. You just, you might as well just say, Come on in, enemy. Come on in. Come on, come on, come on, come on. Run around here, devil.

Run around here and just cause havoc everywhere. So there's that. And then, of course, there's really no. I mean, who is in charge, who makes the call, who says, Yes, we're gonna develop this. Us see lips in five. I mean, I still don't think it's done. So there's severe technical debt, or there's some other stuff going on internally. Maybe it's just too many captains, not enough captains, no captain, you don't

know they're not communicating to the outside world. And Rob Walsh is sitting there doing podcaster relations, having had a podcasting organization, probably the hardest job you can imagine is the person who has to talk to the podcasters every single day.

So when you're dealing with that all day long, and then people come along and say, I want podcasting 2.0 well, we don't have that. So right? You are going to as a human being when you're frustrated and things are going on inside the organization. I'm sure Rob would love nothing more than to to be a part of the group and be be hanging with Mr. Cooper, doing everything cool and and contributing. But he is swamped.

He's swamped in in this world that he's living in which, you know, people are jumping out of this or getting pushed out of there's so much going on that we don't know. And it's very human, I think, to then say, well, you know that stuff is really not it doesn't work on Apple. Don't worry about it, because you got these customers. They're your clients. They're saying, How come we're not getting anything? So then we get to the carrot and the stick thing. And I thought long and hard, I sent him an

email having her back. And in fact, we might need, I think we should invite him on the show. I mean, if he feels like it, I'd love to talk to him about this on the show. The boardroom is the perfect place to talk about it. But there was this continuous carrot and the stick. Well, these guys, if they had only, if they would only use carrots instead of sticks. And to me when I hear them talking about standards, it, for me, it all goes back to the podcast, standards group, yes, and I

don't believe they were involved. I don't think Libsyn either accepted the invitation. Maybe they weren't at the secret dinner. Because, you know, I don't think it was malicious. It's just like, well, you know, Rob, maybe someone forgot to ask him whatever it was. I believe he felt excluded. Then you come up with certifications and badges, and you got to be a part of it, and the minute that started to wane and become weak, which it is. And I appreciate that Sam Sethi stepped up, but I

see no advancement. Then, you know, it's something that you go and beat. And I think that's what he was talking about. Oh, they all wanted to make this happen. They all were going to get together, and we weren't a part of it. We weren't invited, or whatever happened there. And there was the outreach was not done. And then, and also, because Libsyn doesn't seem to be very, be very communicative. They couldn't really do anything

for their internal struggles. And that's where I think that's coming from, but I don't think it's coming from anything else. And then, you know, it's easy to just, you know, be mad. It's mad. I get it. I really do. I think that's that is what's happening. And let's be honest about it, we have, as a group, not done a good job with podcast standards group. We have not

done a good job with marketing, whatever this is. I mean, I'd love that that Daniel J Lewis stepped up and said, Okay, I've told you I can do this podcasting two.org doesn't explain anything for a listener. It's like, here's some apps. It doesn't tell you what it all is. It's, you know, it's, I'm sorry, I don't think it's a very good marketing website, which I thought it was going to be, because this is hard stuff. It's

hard. None of this is easy. There's no organization, there is no company, there's no cash flows throughout all of this, and along comes the incentives. So what really are the incentives for everybody? We, as I said in the beginning, you and I stepped in. Our incentive was freedom. That was the only incentive, no money, no prospect of money, just let's do it. Because screw those guys. We know how to do this, and we're going to do it.

you. Oscar, Mary says he's he's figured out his API issues, and he's working on, on, on the secondary and tertiary payment mechanisms, yeah, and that will come back, or, you know, whatever. I sure hope so. But we still are just a bunch of people trying to make something happen, and without the and we learned this early on. Without the podcast hosting company supporting it, we're just farting in the wind. No,

have not been implemented. So if anything needs to happen, and this is where Libsyn got left out, not purposely, not for and by any fault of their own, per se, because they just don't have this the cycles to do it. I guess improving podcasting is a natural evolution, and it takes time for these things to to

materialize transcripts, I think has been pretty successful. I think we took three years and we got something that Apple also supports, you know, then all of a sudden we have these, these big, you know, the 400 pound gorilla Spotify, who was trying to eat up everybody's hosting uh, business, you know. Is it possible that if we all said, let's make sure everybody accepts Spotify does all this stuff, maybe we can all, you know, and, and if we could get Apple, I mean, this would be the

dream, right? If Apple said, Hey, we're going to be with you guys, because we would love to have more features and we can go kill Spotify, that would be something they need to do, but they're not doing it because they got other things that they got, Apple intelligence. You know, the Apple intelligence says, no, they got to do something else. So, you know, I'm perfectly happy with all of us just developing our apps, the apps and services that want to add this. It all comes back to

the podcaster. 35% of people who listen to my podcast use modern podcast apps, and they love the features that it uses. That's the win. To me, that's the win. And if we think that it all has to be some industry or everybody has to be on the same page.

Forget it. That's not how it works in distributed land. It's just not but it doesn't mean that we can't continue to build and continue to to move forward, and that I would love for Rob to be able to, if possible, to move his company or whatever he can within his company, to come more into where we're at. That would be fantastic. But when you create clubs and badges and and names and make it which I'm I'm also guilty of, you know, podcasting 2.0 it's almost exclusionary by definition,

which, but isn't it was never the intent. But now I see, oh, well, then these people feel like they're not a part of the club, but everyone's welcome. We'd love for everybody to come in

kind of thing. And Marco is also annoyed by 2.0 and so I think they probably picked up some of that as well from him. And I think you're right, and that the origin of, I think the origin of a lot of that stuff is from the podcast Standards Project. I don't know this for a fact, because I don't have any first hand knowledge, because let's go back to the beginning of the podcast Standards Project is a hosting company initiative. We

purposely stayed out of that because it we didn't. We. It, the freedom of not having to be, you know, in a some sort of bureaucratic we just didn't want any of that. And so we wanted to be able to build stuff, be crazy, test stuff, and then if the podcast Standards Project, people want to do something and create some sort of standard that they that's their business. So we sort of stayed out of that, but immediately there was this confusion between the podcast Standards Project and

podcasting 2.0 project. And they they were always confused as the

same thing from the beginning. And I don't know this for a fact, but I feel like somebody involved with the podcast Standards Project reached out to Marco to try to talk about to try to get overcast on board, because he was, he was all he was very interested in 2.0 features, up until right about the time the podcast standards project launched, and then All of a sudden, he was just flipped because he was talking, he was on the forum saying, hey, you know, I'm looking to do

chapters, cloud chapters. I'm thinking about doing it this way. How To what do y'all recommend? There was communication going on. And then he had an, you know, overcast started the activity, pub, on podcast, index, dot, social, there was interaction. And then as soon as the PSP started, that changed. And I think that something in the original somebody or somebody, something in the original PSP incarnation,

pissed some people off. And went and because it immediately became something like, I remember Marcus, you know, implant, implying that he did not want people telling him what to do with his own app. And I think there was miscommunication in some way. Oh,

feeds out there now that have 2.0 tags in them. And for an app developer to just ignore that, or a hosting company to ignore that, doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't, because,

day are D platform from Apple and from Spotify. And I just, I find that to be a problem. And and then you add to that are just the fact that we initially spoke about freedom of speech, which many within our group said, Oh, man, you got to tone that down. We did, actually, we did because, you know, okay, you did okay. You want to stone it down. That's a problem. We don't, you know, we don't have to make money off of saying

we're for freedom of speech. That's okay. But that was in that time period, if you recall, was a lot about covid issues, covid measures, you know, then brand safety came in, racism, black lives matter. I mean, a whole there's a division in the world that is much bigger than podcasting, and it's very difficult to then say, Hey, we're just for anybody you want, as long as it's within the law. You do whatever you want to do, and we don't care, we're just going to leave it and as long as

you're technically doing the right thing. Then, then hallelujah, we'll put you in the index. We, you know, submit it yourself. It's all good to go. So there's a lot of that playing into it, you know, what side of the political spectrum are you on? Look, Marco used to support us with $500 a month. He stopped that six months ago. Maybe.

getting kicked off Swift. We see these politically motivated things, getting involved in interrupting the flow of of money, and Alex Jones getting de platformed and Todd. Todd Cochran says three or four shows, three or four episodes of podcasts a week are taken down by Spotify from blueberry. From blueberry shows, these are being demonetized for largely

political reasons or brand safety reasons. And if you look like I pulled I was listening to America this week, last Friday, and Walter Kern, you know, we had just talked about, we had just talked about UID too. And you know, the the problems with that whole system, and you are into then right after that, I started listening to America this week, and Walter Kern starts talking in this clip about marketing and sales technologies that that eventually feed back into government.

branding, getting somebody into Office part. But what we're not seeing is that these same tools and these same people, in many cases, are all then go into government and start to use these things in an official capacity, a disciplinary capacity, sometimes a punitive capacity. And it's not just marketing anymore. It's running our lives astute, to say the least,

private identification, identifying information. It's getting passed around amongst all these ad marketing servers. So if you buy something on Amazon and you listen to something on Spotify, and then you post something on Twitter, these DSP servers that fulfill the ad placements, they're gonna they're all going to know that it was you. Now, supposedly they

don't, supposedly the DSP does. Doesn't know who quote you are, because they're just have a hash, but every player in the market knows, because they have the actual they're the ones that created the hash. So you know, you can imagine coder like coder radio. This week, Chris was talking about cars that now track your speed by default, unless you opt out, you know, all of a sudden. So now that that's another player in there that can they could spin up a UID, a UID to server and hash

your email address, start feeding this stuff back in. All of a sudden. Now you're getting ads for high risk car insurance on when you do Google searches. I mean, they this. People who listen to thrash metal may have more car accidents, so what your Spotify playlist is determines what your insurance rates are. That you know, this is a system where everyone knows who you are, because they've all hashed your email address, except the DSP serving the ads. Of course, government is going to subpoena

these records as part of just standard procedure. It'll just become a standard part of the grab the phone, decrypt everything, get all the information, get your search history. This is, this is just all going to be part of the same process, and this is the world that we live in right now. You know this the other guy, it's all, you know, it's always the the other guy that you have to worry about. Think about 1988

you had Ronald Reagan. 20 years later, you have Obama. Things flip, and then you went to Trump, and then you went to Biden. Things flip very quickly. It's not the it's not your when you create technologies and you create systems and protocols that work a certain way, they have to be resilient to stand up to the worst possible person on the other side of your political ideas that you can imagine. And if they're not, you're doing it

wrong. So that's the I that's what we went into this whole thing with, is this idea that we're going to build these protocols where the feed itself and the app can communicate together, the listener and the and the and the podcaster have a direct relationship that doesn't depend on any third parties

being trusted to, quote, do the right thing, okay, man. Because if you, if you ever put that, if that's in your flow chart, where you have this person in the middle who you're going to trust to just be benevolent, you're doing it wrong.

or 22,000 whatever it is, not bad. And so now everybody's freaking out about, you know, I guess, because, I mean, Patreon, yeah, podcast, sure, but it's used for all kinds of stuff, people's poetry, people's art projects, people's blog posts. It's used for many things, and they are now going to be subject to the Apple Store tax. I would like to make a proposal that the

most important tag we can promote and promote to. In fact, Apple is the funding tag, and I am going to start promoting this very heavily on no agenda, because as far as I know, almost every single one of the modern podcast apps, the ones that have namespace understanding, I think they all support funding. Yeah, it's pretty broad, yeah. And this would also immediately solve the entire Patreon problem for these apparent 40,000 podcasters, all you do is put your Patreon link in the funding

tag, and Bob's your uncle. Ooh, timing is beautiful. Boom, thank you. Dee laughs. Who says, Love the conversation. So right now, on no agenda, the funding tag, I'm gonna tell everyone, Hey, you want to help it. You want to support us in your modern podcast app, just hit that little that little money button up there, it'll take you right to our donation page, and from

there, you can decide how you want to support us. I think this is, this is a a big problem solving tag, and think of all the different hosting companies who could be promoting this to a lot of people use Patreon. A lot. So instead of sending your people into an app where you're going to get penalized up to 30% you can now send them off to Patreon or wherever you want to send them to, to your own stripe pay. You can get a Stripe account and have your own, your own credit card system.

donations. I sent by scanning the QR code that was up on the screen at the at the event, put in my message, typed in how much I wanted to send, and I did it that way. I didn't do it through, through the app itself. I could have, I could have for apps that support that. It's very convenient, but it's not required, right? And so the funding tag could easily take

you to a donation page of any type, lightning, PayPal. This all our show the boardroom gets more donation money, yeah, from every month from PayPal than we do from from lightning.

don't help anything. I mean, if I would say that, if, you know, I would say that if, if, if Listen, it sounds like what they're doing is selling off some of their, you know, sort of extraneous businesses that they had picked up over the past few years, and they're concentrating, concentrating back on their core hosting business, you know, I feel like now is a great time for them to do these sorts of things, because when you're caught, when you when you're when core, when

you're when, podcast hosting is your focus, the landscape has changed in the last few years. If feature features really matter, and the more you can put in there, the better. So, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't think it makes any sense to sort of like jettison any features just because you don't understand. Just go read, go read about them, see what they really and truly do. Get a get a podcast app, and play with them

with the features. And then you'll, you'll see that it's not the person, the person tag is not the is not iTunes author. They don't do the same. They're completely different. They don't do the same thing. And the, you know, which is another misconception that they had, the the the idea that, some of the podcast, I heard this a lot, that the podcasting two point no tags are reinventing things that already exist in the RSS feed. In RSS, yeah, that where that happens. So let's discuss that

for a second, where there is overlap. We've and we've discussed this before, many times where there is overlap, it's for a couple of reasons, if no the first reason is that we are trying to add features to namespaces that do not have open governance, that would be iTunes, right? And things like the media RSS, the media RSS namespace, the Dublin Core RSS

namespace. These are all namespaces that were invented many years ago, more than a decade ago, and have long since had their quote governing bodies or the people who control them, they've gone away. Yeah, you can't modify those namespaces because the spec is frozen. And this is the world again that we came into with podcasting 2.0 there was no podcast specific name space where the podcast industry, meaning the hosting companies, the apps and the podcasters and everybody

involved, could have a voice in creating and changing. In the spec in real time as a living document. That's what we're doing. And so, because if you want to go back and and make a modification to the way the i, if you want to make a modification to the way the iTunes namespace tag works, one of those tags, you can't, yes, it's not, your is. You can't change that, right? It's Apple's discretion. They're the only

ones that can change it, and they don't play ball. So we do things sometimes, like the like the season tag, the podcast season tag is made to be perfectly backwards compatible with the iTunes season tag, except it adds another attribute for name, for naming a season, because that's what, because people asked us for that specifically, NPR asked us to

build a tag that would do that specific thing, and we did. And that is something that you will not get from a proprietary namespace or a name space that who's dot, whose founding document is dead, you can't do it that way. So where there's overlap is for one of those two reasons, either it's proprietary and you and you can't control it, or the governing body for it

is long gone and it's frozen now. What we have now is the podcast namespace, known as podcasting 2.0 and you can as as Lipson or or Pocket Casts, or Buzz sprout, or whoever you can participate in the pro and true true fans, anybody you can participate in the process, propose pull requests, propose tags, do all that kind of stuff, and you can create the 2.0 that you want.

Apple podcasts, and we're not even on Spotify. I refuse to sign a contract to have my feed featured somewhere, so we're not on Spotify. It didn't hurt us at all, by the way, 34% is apple. Pod verse is number two. Then podcast attic, overcast, podcast guru, Pocket Cast fountain, four and a half percent unknown Apple app. Then antenna pod cast box, I guess we're in iHeartRadio, 1%

cast O Matic, and it goes on and on. You know the there is no Spotify, and our measurement has always been, can I pay my rent? Oh, we'd had a good month. Good shows. You know it that's that's successful podcasting is we're talking about the features that we have use the apps, please, that we recommend people will do it. No app can force itself on people. It's not, that's not how it works. No,

it. I hope that's not what happened, but that's the only thing I can think of. But, but the other side of this. Let's, let's talk about this, though, the other side of this, who has a bigger stick us, or Apple and Spotify, right? I mean, their stick is huge. They love sucking their stick. I mean, they've got, they've got a tree trunk size stick that they're willing to that they will hit anybody over the head with they, they just up and say, you know, hey, here's what we're doing. You

either get on board or you can, you know, go pound sand. Yeah, that's this. That's the stick. We don't have a stick. They do, you know. And I know there's personal stuff going on here as well. I mean, when you hear, when you hear people like. Dave Weiner and Leo Laporte, you know, pooping all over podcasting 2.0 those are personal issues. Yeah, they don't, they don't like, you know, they don't like you or me or both of us. Those are personal. They just don't say it

out loud. And, you know, James said that Rob doesn't like him very much. And that may be the case there. So there may be some of this stuff may be personal, and I can, I'm just gonna leave that alone, and that's that's something that I don't want to get into. But I hope, as far as you know, as for my biggest concern is that P is that people were turned off by the Standards Project talk, because that that was an it wasn't, I don't think

anybody intended to make anybody upset. No, I really don't know. I don't I know everybody. We know everybody involved in podcast editors project, no, that was never the intent. I think

were enough people. There's enough people in the group, in the community who want to show appreciation, who want to deliver value when I do a boost to Grand Ball for a couple 1000 people, I don't care if I'm number one on the charts or so. I don't care I'm there because I love what I do. I love my truck. I love what I do. I love the fact that people can support these artists directly through the modern podcast apps. That's what it's about. The day the future of media is small. It's

very, very small. We're going to see many streaming companies fold and go out of business because the ad based model is not going to work for them. It's too expensive. You know, I think I see shows going and maybe small production houses going to their own systems, which are just their system for the people that appreciate them. We are in a very painful birthing process, but once you set your mind to it, like it doesn't matter. We don't need to have streaming micro payments be the future of

media. There is no future of media. It's small, small. That's what it is.

this industry, without being talented. And I think they have a lot of, you know, I think they just got stuck in a lot of bad situations over the years. And then they seem like they're, they seem like they're coming out of that, which is what I see. It seems like they're like they survived. They survived all that, you know, all that trouble and financial nonsense. And I think that now is probably a good time to to, you know, recon order, and say, what are the features that our customers

would like the most? And, you know, I'm happy to jump on a call with them anytime. I hope we can

irrelevant. You know, it's a race to the bottom of CPMs. That's exactly what happened to banner ads. That's what happened to blogs. You know, it's just going to keep happening over and over again until we wake up and say, Oh, that's really not the way forward. It's just not,

And I think that true true fans is, I wonder if we need, I wonder if we need to create something, some open source, lightweight server code that will allow some that will allow

apps to implement this. Basically do what true fans is doing with activity problems, activity streams like, because essentially, what he's what they're doing is pushing out like, as you do things in the app, they're creating an activity stream feed, yeah, of actions you've taken, playing, you know, liking an episode, Playing a episode, following a podcast. All of these things are actions that they create a feed off of that is you and you, you know, you can disable it the

activity stream, yeah. And you can keep that stuff private if you want to, but, but, but you, if you make it public or not, you choose the visibility. That's how that works. You choose that visible it is. Well, I mean, if other apps want to do that, and then they start, you know, maybe we should write, like, an open source reference implementation for that sort of activity, sort of like, or maybe, maybe it should be added into something like, what's Andrew grumman's thing called,

it's not the wherever player. It's anywhere,

to remember something you listen to the other day. This is, yeah, this is my,

well. And, you know, in addition to true fan, like true, you know, Sam's always plowing forward with a million things, but then, and, but I think blueberry also, you know, I got mad respect for Todd. And then the guys at blueberry just taking arrows in the legs all the time. You know, this many hosts and apps, they take the safe approach, yeah, which there's nothing wrong with. I mean, you, you they take, they take a safer approach. But blueberry and true fans are just

slamming it. And sometimes they, you know, sometimes it's messy, yeah, like, I mean, you know, blueberries getting a lot of, you know, they're getting, having trouble with their alternate enclosure stuff, but using YouTube, their YouTube alternating closure playground thing, but that they're trying new stuff, by

they want to. Oh, gee, that's not working. Let's bring back ads. You mean, like television, yeah, like television, but now you have too many channels with unlimited inventory. Unlimited. It's not 24 hours in a day. No, it's unlimited. So there's no way to put in scarcity. So it's going the way of banner ads. I think the future Go ahead.

You get to know what people are doing. You get to select who you want to be a part of, and you can very easily see who's performing or who's not performing. That seems like a logical next step for advertising based media in general is, you know, the brands, Paramount, Disney, etc, that's long term. There is just no long term future for that. Even Disney can barely make it work, and they have the, arguably the most valuable catalog in the world.

forced rivals to lower their rates. One rival executive mentioned Amazon's vast supply of inventory has pressured prices lower. He said they knew what they were doing in terms of flipping everybody over into their tier. Amazon converted more than 200 million global subscribers to the advertising tier, unless they opted out by paying for the premium ad free service. This means the platform has one of the most massive audiences to attract advertisers. Netflix, on the

other hand, has about 40 million on its ad tier. And so like they it goes on to talk about how the CPMs are basically lowest amongst those, amongst those like Amazon and Netflix, which have the greatest access to the to the actual playing and streaming data. You know, they're not depending on third parties. And so this is this. This is exactly opposite of what you would think it would be. Yeah. It says Yeah. The chief executive, Andy Jassy, believes Prime Video can be a large and

profitable business on its own. So as the streaming wars progress, Amazon's move into move to convert its entire Prime Video subscriber base to a new ad supported version will be enough to increase market share in the ad space, driving down rage, which in turn crushes competition. So there is basically, they're just, they're like, it's race to the bottom, yes. And the way you handle that is by going as broad, as fast as

possible. You just have to kill everybody, because the only way you're going to make money is by being the only player left. Yeah.

that huge spdx list. And he was right. So what we, what I've, what I've done is I've paired the list down, so there's now the the original namespace, excuse me, the namespace XML and s document is it now links to a licensed sub folder in the repo with four files in it. Okay? One is just the overview, the podcast license specification that just describes how the tag works. The next file is a license, licenses, dot JSON

file. This is meant to be ingested by host by platforms, so any, any hosting platform, should be able to ingest this license and show it in like a drop down, where you can pick what license you Oh, yeah, I

the entries in the JSON file has a few properties. It's got the name, the short name, the version of the license, a short, a description, which is meant to just be a brief description of what the licenses purpose is, whether it'll whether this license allows for commercial use. And that's a Boolean. It can be either true, false or false, oh, yeah, whether, whether it requires attribution, and that can be either true, false or and whether it allows derivative works, and that's

either true or false. And then there's a link to the actual text of the license.

have the V for v dash four.o.md, that which is very long. It is very long. This is, this is the license that Julie sent me, Yeah,

needs to be changed. Does the list have enough coverage, like, is there an there's five of the most common licenses from Creative Commons in there, and from for podcast V, for V, is there something I'm missing? Is there one that's obvious that I didn't put in? Those are the types of things I need to know. So if, if, if people want to help, check that out, give me feedback, and let's make sure that this thing looks good, so that by the end of this week, I can hit the formalize and go, cool, cool.

that, okay? And we'll, we'll, we'll see what's being used, and then update the list in the future, going forward, just to give, like, a. If 1000s and 1000s of people are using a particular tag, and it's not in the list, and it needs to be in the list, right? Got it? So we'll just update the list.

lightning addresses as an option for sending value. And yes, it will work with splits, etc. And just to remind everybody, the reason behind it is so that apps who don't want to manage hubs et cetera, or have their customers manage their own stuff, we'll just be able to use APIs such as those from initially strike in future, maybe Cash App or whatever other apps come online.

So it's a very simple I like strike a lot. You can still for the simple reason, if it's just an API and you get your strike wallet, you put dollars in there, you can send dollars. Yeah, I still think, yeah, we should. For newbies, it's better to be using dollars. I mean, we don't have to explain the whole Bitcoin thing. We don't have to. And moving forward, that seems to be and we'll make room there, of course, for bolt 12 when it

comes along. So these are all just all options, and everything else will be backwards compatible.

pretty popular in Scandinavia. Great suggestion. Adam, all the best. There you go. Hyper local. I like it. 1776 from Martin Linda's Coke, which is the freedom boost I says. I started blogging in 2002 in order to spread better ideas, not to earn money. But I had some advertising with blog ads, pajamas, media, and my own ad banner for sponsors I knew liked and trusted. My blogging got me in touch with other bloggers, and I've had freelance gigs as a guest blogger for moderator,

etc. I'm open for new opportunities. Best premises, Martin linsko, we have once told Kyle who boosted 777 for I want to be your woman. And he says, getting some Christina Aguilera vibes off of this one good song. Cole McCormick, say,

song, great voice. Heard it on podcasting, 2.0 thank you for boosting her. D's laughs. Nice song, 123, 2112, from Martin. Linda Coke, how do I update the funding tag? Is it at the dashboard on Captivate FM and pod home.fm, that would be good to have a donation page with several options, ie PayPal, buy me coffee, get Albie, lightning address, etc, for my podcast, yes, I have it in sovereign feeds, and you can add multiple blocks or multiple places. So I don't know about Captivate or

the other ones. I would hope all of them have. It seems like an easy one.

from other podcasting, two apps. I remember, when doing the I am Texas slim podcast, we used to be able to see booster grams from other apps inside the activity feed. And it did indeed show up, what app it came from, in my opinion, that should help boost the signal on fountain, where, instead of fountain, only inside the perimeter of booster, grams in the pipe, go podcasting. I think what happened there is the, you know, they changed their back end, and you have to make sure that you

are using the new boost bot. I think it still works. Okay, add boost bot, and then it will show up in the fountain. The their their feed of boosts. Chad F 1776 Thank you, Chad, you sent that twice, actually. Well, there's another Martin. Linda Coke, I have 2222 I have now sent booster grams and stream SATs with POD verse and podcast Guru, I am now listening on the podcast index site as my phone, iPhone 6s plus, had issues with the Wi Fi connection. Next time I'll send a booster gram with a

progressive web application. True fans. Martin Luther Coke, supporter of the podcasting 2.0 initiative. You need a badge that says that.

podcasting 2.0 or not. I can't do my evangelist role with no marketing budget. Well, there you go. Thanks for the update. I wonder why Rob walked out of the meeting. It's, it's worth going up and say, Hey, man, what's up? What's up? Can we invite him on the show? Is that a weird thing, Dave?

he says, and he's from truth boosting from true fans. Yep, I find it funny that no credit is paid to podcasting 2.0 by a group of insiders that bend the knee to closed source solutions while Apple showed them. They are our biggest ally in adopting a podcasting 2.0 standard by transcripts tag. Will any of them at least say thanks? Well, I'm okay. I don't need, I don't need to hear thanks. I'm I'm good. I've said

their ideas and their code in public. I just don't think, I think it was just something that had not it's an ethos, it's a it's an attitude, and I just don't think that was part of the conversation, no, and so now, but now, now it's common. I mean, now, I mean, I think I really, if there's anything we if there's anything I can hang our hat on that, I think that we had an impact on it, more than just any sort of like spec or features. I think it's changing the culture and the conversation

around open source within podcasting. Yes, I really think that that. I think we did have an effect on that, and I think podcasting is better for it.

Podcast mirror, peer to pod friend, just cast dino.fm, ln beats, podcast addict, curio caster, split kit, transistor dystopia, vodio music side project, Buzz, sprout podcast, see podcast chapters, my web blog, pod page, podcast, AI MP, dot money, cast, O Matic, fireside prodigy, seriously simple podcasting, metacast, Caproni, pod station, breeze, anytime. Podcast, player, pod, LP, red circle. Podcast page.io, Alito, pine pods, castos. Pod, love three, speak IPFS,

podcasting, Sphinx, antenna. Pod Ivy, dot, FMT, tsec, dob, hub, hop hopper. Pod, news, boost, CLI, focus. Podcast, eye catcher, pocket, cast Odyssey, Lipson has locked in. Transcript, text, hyper catcher. Pod, news, directory. Pod, serve, Plink. Pod, browser, value for value. I mean, it just keeps going and going and going. There's a million P I mean, this, it's not, this is not just a tiny, this is not just a tiny

thing anymore. I mean, you, really have to, I think this is what Todd was saying on new media show this week, is you sort of have to decide what you're going to do at this point. Yeah,

Dave, cheers, enjoy your Sam Adams beer. Great sandwich illustration, Adam, have you visited Berkeley plantation history of the first Thanksgiving in Virginia? No, I haven't it's on the list now, though, Liberty boost 1776 Satoshi is best premises Martin Linda's covid podcast was since 2006 1776 from Chad. F7, 777, from chat F, let's lift those spirits. I was, I played a real bummer song in the pre, the pre in the pre show, yeah. The suicides, yeah. 11,111 from

Martin Linda Coke, this time from pod verse. Podcasting, 2.0 sticks. I like carrots. Listen to episode 247, of the feed podcast by Elsie and Rob. I'm glad that they read Brian's email. Go podcasting, Martin Linda Coke, using pod verse. And thank you to Dr Scott for the 4567, the boosted MC boost test, making sure it all worked and it did indeed. And I've hit the delimiter, Dave, who do you have on your list?

drivers in the new in their newest operating system. And what it's done is it's really screwing up a lot of studio people who have bought gear based upon lightning support, which I guess is supposed to work with Thunderbolt. But Apple is just saying, Nope, no more software, all kinds of things and, and I said, Well, you know, I switched from, I was a Mac guy since my apple too, you know, so I've been an Apple guy for all my life. And then they started screwing around with USB, and

the USB wasn't working, right? And I saw the writing on the wall. I said, they don't really care. That was the same time they came out with Final Cut Pro X, which was a nightmare, coming from seven to nine. They completely changed the interface, and it made it just like, What have you done here? So you either had to work with deprecated OSS, try and go ahead and try and buy a new Mac and deprecate it down to older OS. It's lots of fun. Some people are trying to hack the drivers.

And I really, I hate to say it, but this is, this is what we do not have drivers for high end gear on Linux, and it's because there's collusion of planned obsolescence between companies like Apple and the software and hardware companies, they want people to continuously upgrade, and it's built in obsolescence,

and they just will not. If they made any company that makes drivers available for Linux, I suggest they will win, because, man, I would be on linux in a heartbeat like, oh, okay, buy Windows, but they won't do it because it's built into their business model at this point. And so we basically all get screwed, and I just don't think we're ever gonna see Linux drivers for modern devices ever. They just won't do it. They're too closely tied in to all these other companies. And

at handbags. And then your phones got close together. And then there are advertising companies that you can go to, and they'll give you this full spectrum, and it will determine what ads you're seeing on television. Roku is amazing at this. I mean, then go ahead and put a network sniffer on your Roku and pick up the remote. The minute you pick up the remote, it's sending off all kinds of data somewhere. We got a love one, yeah, it's right. We got some. That's it's like political

ads. I mean, the biggest mistake you can make of text messages that are political is saying stop, because the minute you say stop, you get five more messages from different phone numbers. It's the worst. Don't ever click on one of those links, either. That's horrible.

Ford. Your Ford is great, not great on the air conditioning or the sound system, but otherwise not private,

value back time, talent, treasure. We accept it all. Podcast index.org, use a modern podcast app to boost us. We love that. The more you boost, the higher we are in those fountain Top 10 charts, which I like because it's another marketing opportunity. People see that like, Hey, look at those guys. I wonder what that podcast is. And of course, there's a big red donate button there, which takes you right to our PayPal. Or in the modern podcast app, look for that little dollar sign or some

other value funding Tag button. It's different on every single one of them. We need a universal button for that. I think