Episode 182: Drop the Dongle

podcasting 2.0 for June 7 2024, episode 180 to drop the dongle if it's Friday, it's podcasting 2.0 Hello everybody welcome to the show where we talk about podcasting the future. Today will actually be talking about the past as well and what they can bring into the future confused yet don't worry, you won't be everything happening in podcasts index dot social, the namespace podcast index.org And this is the only

I can get aggravated by comments your blogger I just choose not to.

I have known him for I want to say 17 or 18 years. And he still doesn't aggravate me he is a feature not a bug.

That's a long time to know comic strip blogger.

Yeah, I've actually met him once in person. How about that

his own parents don't haven't known him that long.

That's a good way of looking at it. Man oh man. Oh, man. Here we go. We got a great guest today. I can't wait to introduce him to everybody. Very excited having spoken to him and I don't know 10 years.

That's a reunions family

read it is it is a family reunion.

Heroes a podcasting? That sounds like a document. Documentary. You

know, I have done at least three documentaries interviews for documentaries. Not a one has ever come out. Oh, that's great. Yeah. No, it's important to be documentaries to get them funded. It's impossible. And then once you get it funded, nobody ever makes their money back. I mean, documentaries is a horrible, horrible business.

Netflix kind of killed the whole documentary thing, didn't they? Because they just pay they said okay, we're gonna You're gonna pay everybody up front. There's no long term benefit to this.

I would say no, I would say this even worse than that Amazon Prime really killed it. They take some astronomical amount like 80% and and you know, then they just kick you off and they you know, it's it's a mess. It's a mess. Which is why I hope our boy can get into hub up and running value for I think value for value documentaries. I think there's something there I really do.

I forgot to send him a pod ping token, golf Katrin. Okay. Oh,

write it down. Right. It's a bit It's okay. It'll show up in the AI transcript summary. Now here's long as the reminder Dave needs to send in the hub dude, a what kind of token pod paying? Token Yes, pod.

Siri remind me to send nd hub due to pod pink token in three hours.

Wow. And here's the guy who's upset about the window snapshot you just reading your life into Siri, what's wrong with you, Dave Jones.

Here's what here's what the reminder came through as sinned. Indeed, due to PP token, there you go.

Okay, whatever, that's gonna save the world. Everybody is gonna save it, it's gonna save. It's gonna be great. All right, I gotta talk about wallets for a moment. But just want to make sure everyone understands what's going on. There, it looks like albies Having some some issues today. With the incoming, the last incoming stats I got on my lb wallet was about eight hours ago. And this is, of course,

Oh, I remember that. Yeah, you had a freedom controller page for that.

Correct. So I so I do know how it works. And that, you know, there's calls inside of that to send a payment. And the beauty of it is that the breeze SDK automatically comes with this lightning service provider that is provided by breeze and they take care of all the stuff. So you don't have to worry about it. All you need to do is make sure that when it's time to send a payment, that you make the key send call, it sends it to the appropriate splits. And you're done. Because you've

you tell me exactly what you did? Because you said you said I tested it from the command line and it worked. I mean, what did you do? Yeah,

so green light, I only I only tested the the green light and the LSP part. So I got the green light, you get a token. So you can use it in a Python script. I think it does rust, Python, a couple other languages. And I just copied and pasted their demo script and sent a key send payment.

And it worked greenline This is not the breeze SDK. No, the Yeah,

exactly is the the breeze SDK is only for apps. But the greenlight API uses the breeze lightning service provider to take care of all the liquidity so you don't have to worry about that. So it just works. I didn't have to fund a channel didn't have to do anything at all. It just worked. And

you're saying that you're saying that the the greenlight nodes do not support key send

no they support key send out but the way they operate is a spin up the minute you need to send this is kind of the problem that sphinx had back in the day is they couldn't figure out how to start up little mini nodes for everybody with liquidity built in. Because it just wasn't available. The lightning service provider piece wasn't there yet. So that's now here and I don't know what Sphinx is doing anymore. But

So the that listen, if there's outbound keys, and on the listen on the listener wallet side, that I mean, that is fine. Let's purchase. That's that's that's perfect.

That's exactly what we need. Yeah,

Brad's exactly what we need. The the issue, you know, on the on the receiving side? Is the less Tim is less of a problem at this point in time? Yes, correct.

It's a solvable problem is just how people want to solve it. I again, think it should be the hosting companies that do this. Because the model has been set. I mean, the model is there. And there's many ways to solve that. You know, there's people pay for services. So you know, there's ways to solve that. I'm seeing a path and that path is through Bolt 12. And Bolt 12 already works on core lightning.

The developer of core lightning? Is the wrote the initial spec for Bolt 12.

Yeah, that's why it works. Yeah, Rusty?

Rusty Russell, I think is the name. I don't know. I don't know. I think he's the core developer for certainly developer for core lightning. But the, the bolt 11 which is what the main, the main thing that lightning has used since day one, in my opinion, was always a big mistake. Always, no other payment, no other payment system requires you to have the receiver send you an invoice first before you're allowed to

it's weird. It's very weird. It's very weird. Yeah, I

understand. If you look at the technicals, you understand why they did it that way, because they they do the preimage. And then they they're going to you know, they need to reverse the encryption out of the onion as it goes through the the node hops

reverse the encryption out of the onion captain.

But but it's still raw, it's still the wrong solution. You just you just you have to do a different you need to architect a better solution. And that better solution is both 12 Yes. And and it's, it's unforgivable, in my opinion that l&d has existed for six years, and still does not have Bolwell support, right.

So now, of course, in our world, fountain is an important player in value for value, if they don't have both 12 It's not going to be a great starter to move to bolt 12 Now we can have options, and, you know, send keys, and if but, you know, I just don't know where they're at. I don't know what they're using. And lnd may have a complete different gameplan you know, who knows what they're doing? They're doing all kinds of stuff that is not necessarily implementing

Bolt 12 They are. I mean, I see I see their roadmap. They send weekly emails, but as it's like they just started. I mean, like, they just think the version 18 of l&d is just putting in the very beginnings of bolt 12 I mean, it could be months before it's ready.

Now the I'm seeing cake wallet. I'm seeing them making interesting moves. It's very possible that after they implement the breeze SDK that their desktop wallets may also implement a Key send receive through the LSPs. You still don't want I mean, even Zeus wallet who are CLI back end through Olympus, they said, I saw a thread on the on podcast index dot social, that they are going to make something so that

Oh, for me, certainly. I myself. I mean, I was ready to give up this past week. I mean, I was really serious, seriously, I mean, that just the idea of having to go back and re architect and completely different solution. And all this stuff was right. I mean, it, it's it's frustrating. You know, it's frustrating is a momentum killer. And, you know, that so I know, you're right, you're right. The other the other thing is this, I mean, let's let's kind of look at the

Well, so I agree. But I, my gold standard, if you will, is I look at the app stores, the most conservative people there are, and they are fine with this solution. No,

I'm saying like, no, yeah, I'm, I'm on the same page with you. Because what I'm trying to get at is, is the the answer is going to be noncustodial. Yes. That's

the oh, that's that. That's always been the answer. We I think we know that even when we looked at LM pay I mean, it's it's forget the the money transmitter part. And I think Zebedee has money transmitter licenses in every state except Florida, then maybe one other one. Which is odd, but okay, is what it is. So, fully, self owned. noncustodial has always been the way to go. We've always known that that's what it was

Right? And this there's gonna be you're gonna have to either be not, you're gonna have to either be noncustodial or have a, an AP lot and a custodial APA API layer in front of an institution who has all the proper licensing exactly as your does your your two choices and

you You can't trust that.

No, I mean, you can't. Well, I mean, I don't I don't think I agree. I think we mean two different things. I think I understand what you mean. You mean, you can't trust it? In the sense that, you know, not your not your keys, not your corner?

No. I mean, just like, exactly. You know, it's like, if something goes down, all the wallets are down. Someone decides they don't want to play anymore. Everything's gone.

I'm a little looser with my, you know, with that kind of stuff. But

yeah, but I'm from spaces. We don't mess around here.

Right. Yeah, you could have a 380. But you got a 45.

That's just saying, I'm just saying, you

know, the the custodial solution, but backed by a bigger player. It's I mean, that's, that's, that's achieved. Is that 38 special?

Like a 22? LR. Okay.

long rifle. long rifle. Yeah. So those are really only two solutions, the days of the days of ln PE. And you know, and Alby, and these companies that like kind of like flying under the radar, and really told us this, maybe he did a year, almost a year ago, he said, he said, everybody is just on the regulatory side of things. Everybody's just sort of like, doing it and hoping that everybody doesn't notice. So in so those days are kind of those are those are coming to an end. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And but the thing is, is not, not unexpected. And you know, so I see today, I don't know what's going on with Albie, you can certainly you can stream and boost Albie, Albie wallet fountain two lb seems to not be working which is a bummer because you know, I'll be without a doubt head and shoulders above everyone else with with the with the V for V payments. But I remember when everybody was integrating lb everyone was on podcasting.

is Michael, Michael and more it Sir Michael and Moritz are coming on the show here in a couple of weeks. And you know they can they can fill in the gaps of our knowledge about exactly what is going on, on their side, because I get the feeling that they are just just from what I'm seeing they the the reports I'm seeing from the UK because I exchanged an email with them too. And I have a sense from the outside that they are trying to read sort of like rebuild the plane in flight.

I'm not

saying there's yeah, there's real regulatory issues to be done. They're trying to like, they're putting stuff, they're putting solutions in place, like all over the place, trying to figure out how to do this in a way that doesn't just that doesn't really screw everything up.

So they I know, I know, part of what they're doing is they're going to also implement lightning service providers, which makes a lot of sense. But somewhere still a node has to run. So are they going to be just an API on front of green light in front of an LSP? I mean, that's possible. But when I when I see things about well, we can use the Apple App Store boost API like hard No, no, right? No, just hard.

lot there's a lot of a lot of these problems are left over largely uninteresting artifacts of just LMDS structure. Because you know, I don't know how core lightning is but lnd. Is, is an age so it's a one to one relationship. You have a wallet. When you have an lnd node you have a wallet Yeah. And that that wallet is tied to a to a and to an on chain wallet. There's no sense of of different wallets or different

do. But I don't I don't see that happening. I mean, that's not the way core lightning works either.

No, I don't see that happening. But I'm just saying that like, that's, there's a lot of technical debt here. I think that both fronts because from the beginning, these things should have been designed differently, like Bolt 11. And that kind of thing. No, yeah. So we're, you know, these are all just in a similar way, to me in a similar way that we're that Ellen URL, is a hacky workaround for the limitations of bolt 11.

I don't because then I don't see I don't see that.

Well, if if let's let's say that I'm, let's say that I'm pod verse, and I want all my own all my URL. And here's a better example. Let's say that I'm pod home. And I want to host a wallet host wallets for all cat podcast, right? Well, that's

so that's something different. We're talking to this as I think this is where the confusion sometimes comes in. Okay, that's the receiving side. That's the podcast or side. Right?

But um, but I'm just trying to sit Okay. All right, fine. Let's let's do pod verse example. Some pod verse, I want all my users to have to have a to have a wallet, I could spin up a node, and then start hosting wallets. And if they had a key, if they had a private, a key, a key spend or a keyed interaction, architecture for multiple wallets on a node, then I could just spin up the wallet hand the keys to the user. And I'm and and all I'm doing is, is funding the node. I don't have

but that, yeah, but that solution doesn't exist. And that's not where it seems to be going that the lightning service provider part is literally opening and closing channels to each individual node that is that is brought on either through the SDK or through the the green light architecture. Right?

So but it's because of this is because it's because lightning nodes themselves can't host multiple wallets.

Right. But I think that but I also think that's the right way to do it. The right way is to have self custody over your node, and over everything that's happening with your node. But I just don't, otherwise, this is exactly where we landed is then you're a money transmitter, you you are transmitting money on other people's behalf. That's why you can't really have a node and have multiple wallets on it.

Well, I think I think we're just I don't want to get too wrapped up in that think we're saying different things. Because I'm, you know, it's largely irrelevant. But what I'm, you know, what I was getting at is that if you if, if you can host multiple wallets, that then you are your own LSP if the what as long as the wallets are protected, where you can't spend the funds than your if, if I have if I have a lightning node that can host multiple wallets. I'm not

Right. But I also don't see, unless you're seeing something I don't see any roadmap where that's going to happen. No,

I don't either. Because like I said, it's largely just an academic argument. I was just, I'm just saying that, like, so many of these things. Ellen URL LSP. It's, it's just unfortunate, because some of these things were ill designed from the beginning, and Ellen URL and LSPs are having to her having to fix these fundamental flaws in the architecture. Right, you know, well,

I mean, that's the argument. Is it a fundamental flaw in the architecture? Or was it always the intent for every every individual to have their own node?

Do a maybe so that's maybe that's what I think

the intent was. Everybody has their own node, which is why we have start nine and I'm rollin all this stuff, but if that's not user friendly, it I can see a podcaster doing it. But there are hosted node solutions. I think as cheap as five bucks a month, but you know, and now with LSPs, that actually makes it doable for a mere mortal. Because the minute you have to get into, you know, Ride the Lightning and all this

the only way they would have a future is, is with a raise with a change to raise it to the regulatory landscape.

Yeah, which I which I can see that just want to. That's not happening.

Yeah. So you would have to have it, you'd have to have a listen, to be honest, you'd have to have a US administration that would come in and say and, and make it clear, like with merit, like you know, like with marijuana laws, they're still just as confusing. At the federal level. Nobody has ever fixed that. As just as messed up as this where you'd have to have somebody come in and say this all in just fix it all. And say this is fine. I just want to say Fernandes No,

or head says all this spontaneously spun up channels seems like a poor idea long time as the fees rise? No, because they are connecting channels, just like a virtual channels, like a private channel that comes from their own lightning infrastructure. So has nothing to do with unchained fees. There is fee for opening submarine swap? Yes. Not even that. I mean, they literally are splitting off their own channel,

So what else supports bolt? 12? I mean, can because if, if the other side of this is if you're a podcaster and and thing like like cash app supports both 12 Then

you'll be able to really go around then then you'll be able to receive on your cash app. Absolutely. And I think don't don't go Yeah, yeah,

I think that I don't know if they support that yet. I don't know if any of those big the big players like Cash App strike PayPal. I don't know if they support biltwell

Zeus I think supports Bolt 12

Okay, well, that's uh, that's that's the thing.

Yeah. Hold on, hold on a second day. Hold on. Something happened with my recording. That's my damn disc. I think my disc is rotten. Or we screwed now we're good. I have a backup recording running no worries. But it just seems like that's what everyone's waiting for. Core Lightning has it already. I think cord lightning is moving ahead. They they

Yeah, I need to we need to get an S from Oscar on that. LD il sir Spencer says core lightning Eclair breeze SDK LDK. Which is lightning development kit is all support both 12. Well, if LDK supports both 12 Then you would think cash app should because it's built on LDK Yeah,

I don't know. I

don't know we can we can test because yeah, I mean, I'm I mean we so we just closed phase seven. So we're about to go into Phase eight. You know here soon and bolt 12 is a logical thing. Just go ahead and start putting in there. Yeah. We need it's time. Yes,

it's time. It's time Dave Jones. it's time it's time to do it.

Is it time is for our guests.

Well, before we get to our guests, I wanted to do a little plug. I have zero financial interest, no shares, no nothing. I just love this kid. I love Fernando who built the the pod mobile device, which is yes, if I was a podcast hosting company, I would offer these I would pass it through but I would offer these to my customers. This device is awesome. And I and so he sent me the new version. I now have 10 of these things at home in actually I think five probably

That sounds fantastic.

I mean, he's got some Priya and you can even plug in an SMB seven without a CloudLifter

it's amazing. It's got built in pre Yeah, it's got everything. Well, I mean the RA 320 is a hungry mind too. It needs a lot of pre does. Yeah. And I don't think it's as much as the SM seven V but it's pretty close. Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's doesn't need as much but it

needed a cloud lifter with my own really before. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. If you don't have a bit of meat if you're if you don't have a decent preamp for the 320 It's It's suffers.

I'm just blend. You know the price is like 320 bucks or something for the two mic version. Dude, it's amazing. This is what I wanted to build. This is exactly what this is what I wanted to build. It's it's all DSP now. It's nice. It's really nice. Pretty sick. Yeah. Got it. Yeah,

that's a that's a you were at equalizer orange. Yes.

Well, there's, there's like four different EQs, which are predetermined. And that was the second step and so that the other ones just came to Bumi for me. But it's the D noiser. So you select kind of a gate, one that doesn't cut out too much. And then you hold and it's just a capacitive touch button, you hold that. And then you you're just quiet and then it sets to the noise level and you let go and then it's

them at a at a discount like a starter kit. Yeah, yeah,

you can I'm sure you can get them wholesale from him for much cheaper. Yeah, that's cool. Good to go. I mean, hosting companies, wallets, and devices you go. If you want if you want to. If you want to diversify, diversify yourself or make yourself unique from others, or just try to sell yourself

it's always an option.

We're waiting to find out who it is. We're all curious or we're all waiting we have it You are with bated breath. Yeah. Who's fallen down?

I had to. I had beer with Tom Rossi from Buzzsprout. He was in Birmingham. We have winds Wednesday night we had we had beers and talk shop and it was fun. Great. Great to see.

Those guys are great. Alright, so we bring in our guest who's been waiting patiently in the wings. He's probably fallen asleep by now. But hey, it's been 10 years at least since I've spoken to him in person on the phone. And I am Lou is it Adam? Well, and he's been going through his archives and posting stuff on podcasts index dot social things I had long forgotten one of the first people who showed up when I started tinkering around with the with Apple scripts and

Hey, guys, how you doing? You're awake to the boardroom.

Sorry, sorry for taking so long man had to get that out. It's all good. I'm learning stuff. Well, since you're developing, developing a web app, maybe might might be of importance to you. Yeah,

yep. You're I think you're a few hours ahead of me checking out that SDK, but it's on my list.

Andrew grommet, I have to say, I only stopped smoking weed about a year and a half ago. So a lot of the history of podcasting is fuzzy for me. Particularly those early early days when I was in the castle in Belgium and tinkering around, tell me when we first got on each other's radar.

Oh, man. So maybe it was blogger con, right in 2003?

Was that where was the blood was? Uh, I remember it was was in California? No,

no, it was in

Cambridge. Right. Right. Right.

I want to say that's where we met.

And do you remember the meeting?

Probably coming out of one of those, you know, panel sessions or something, but, and I wrote about this on on, on one of the posts on social but, you know, I don't know something like within the first 60 seconds, you know, we were talking about enclosures. And RSS. Wasn't that super groovy at all but you know, with a little apple script, you can, you know, download it overnight and sync it immediately to the device. And you know, I think this was this was before the iPhone,

2005.

No. 2003 2000 3003. Okay. Yeah.

And I My mind was blown, because, you know, I think enclosures had been around since 2000. Maybe? Yeah.

Yes, 2000 Dave and I were sending, like 100 megabyte QuickTime movies to each other through radio user land. And that was the extent of it. Right? It was basically a movie of the Grateful Dead that he would send, you know, playing some Grateful Dead song. And I'd probably send some porn movie back. I can't remember back in the day, that's always and then once Napster came out, you know, it would be a song or something. And, and I remember that when I saw my first iPod, I'm like, Ah,

was probably a good year in there of just kind of messing around and, you know, connecting by, you know, on mail lists. And I think Yahoo had a mail list system and like some of those mails I still have in my inbox, but I Potter dash Dev. Yeah,

I know man. Forgot about that. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, we worked. We were working with different people. The iPod RX, guys. I think we're in Canada, right? That's That's right. August

and Ray. Oh, all right. Yeah. Canada, okay. Yeah, I

still trade emails with Ray of that race, the Kinsky.

Now, what were you doing at the time? What were you Where were you working? Yeah,

so this was like, there was kind of a stretch after I remember the web 1.0 boom and bust?

Yes, yes. So

fondly, yes. fondly in the wake in the wake of that bust? I was doing I was consulting. Like I kind of go back back and forth between, you know, real jobs and kind of messing around. So this was all side projects stuff while I was consulting, you know, to pay the bills. But what we,

what were you coding in at that time?

For I Potter are generally, generally Yeah. Oh, you're gonna like this. So we were using, like professionally for, I don't know, three or four years stretch, we were using TCL tickle.

Oh God.

Remember that now?

Yeah, that's old Unix man.

There was actually good reasons. You know there was if you remember. Yeah, if you remember cgi bin that was kind of state of the art back then yes, go

to my website, domain name.com/cgi, CGI dash bin slash script,

I mean, the way that would work is you know, you'd make a call to the web server, the web server would kick off a Unix process from scratch, and that would run your thing. And so there were these guys in the mid 90s called NaVi soft and they they were like, hey, this tickle language is really great. You know, it's, it's, it's embeddable, it's got this nice clean syntax, and they built a web server around it. And what they would do is pre load a bunch of, you know, sort of

I was I don't remember TCO from from web stuff, I remember it as the as the GUI the way you did GUI. That's right. That was the TK part. Yeah, TK Yeah, TK Yeah, TCL TK was like, you know, your, your, your GUI programming, Gui, Gui, x.

So this was like a lesser known use of the of the scripting language, but one that you know, it was a great base to build on for a few years there.

TCL now we'll we went through that. I remember, we were all Mac based. And then you came in and you started building the windows podcatcher, as we call them. Yeah. That was I mean, that was just you or the other Pino who were in your No, no,

it was. So the early group it was actually there was there was this company in I don't know if was Amsterdam or Rotterdam, but there was, you know, in the Netherlands, there was these guys called activate. And a few of them. Were sort of interested. You know, this wasn't a super structured thing, right? A bunch of us just came together on iPod or Dev, but they contributed a few a few guys. And it was me. And so Martin.

Home Herod. Yeah, I remember. I remember Martin. Yeah.

Martin, Fen, Roy, and Eric the young. So it was me and those guys and there was a guy parrots, I had to go look this all up. But, but and then I want to say Ray was there a little bit but then he peeled off to do AI Potter x. And then later on, we had a guy from Australia Garth kid came in and Garth Garth made, Garth made all the Bit Torrent stuff work, which was was really cool. Right. But um, yeah, the kind of genesis of it for me was I was watching all this stuff going on. And you

did some scripting this past week.

It's what I do. All

right. But, uh, yeah, I want to say a lot of the work was was on Mac, and you know, I Mac was was kind of the groovy thing back then, I don't know, there was sort of the new hotness where all the developers were paying attention. But it was still a really low percentage of the market that

Yeah. That was I remember, what was the what was the Windows installer that we all use at the time? What was the

no soft was then it was one of them, or what was that those

guys are great. Yeah, I mean, that that's what we use, right? I sort of had zero interest in downloading. What do you call it? executables? No, no, actually, I was thinking about the like Microsoft, even though I wanted it to work on Windows is sort of by no means a kind of Microsoft programmer and So I wanted to have nothing to do with Visual Studio and which is kind of funny now, because VS code is what everybody uses. But there was this whole Developer License thing you had to buy

I want to say that there was some, and I'm trying to remember if the, the, if I'm remembering this thing, if I'm remembering this, right, but there was something that was a an installer kit that came out like a spun off from the wind app, guys.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Right? It's called an XSL. Soft. Yeah, it was. Came out a llama sauce. Right. Okay. Yeah.

No soft, scriptable installer system. It's still around. I ended

up sciences. I remember that answers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So that's how we built the installers. I think for for Mac it was, you know, it was much simpler. I think there was just like a, you know, you make a DMG or something like that. Yeah.

Mount the dmg. Yes, yes. Oh, man. Oh, yeah.

But that was that was really what got me involved was was was also a scrap. Remember that that expression? open sources are scratching your own itch I, like I was always interested in listening to, you know, body Oh, time in a time shifted way. I think, I think sometime in the late 90s. Like, remember real audio streams, of course, of course, it was kind of this protected thing. And I really liked this radio program called This American Life, right? It was, but you had to be

of the early things I remember. One was there was this huge ongoing conversation, which I think might have ultimately led to the creation of atom. Atoms. Yes. And that was about the show notes. And the end there. Were just developers yelling at me, like, when you Where are you going to put your show notes? Because I'd come up with the concept of show notes. Yeah. And I said, well just put it here in the description. Then there was like this. Well, we need a show notes

know, it was contentious. I still, you know, today, I remember it being contentious more than I remember the details of, you know, what we were what everybody was fighting about. I

remember cool stuff, like stuff that we that we discovered kind of on the fly. And here's the one I remember the best. Where and I don't remember what what app it was. But we we figured out it was probably not a good idea. When you subscribe to a feed that had already existed for a while to then download all the episodes right away.

I'm not you can't see me, but I'm not nodding my head.

Because back in the day, I mean, we hadn't there was. I mean, I was putting stuff on my Mac drive. Yeah, we're dot Mac, I guess it was what it was called or whatever. And you know, and it was it was a nightmare, because there was no bandwidth. And it was just, you know, you'd crush it trying to download 20 episodes all in one go. I mean, what do you remember any other things that we learned that were kind of like that? The early? Yeah. That's,

I mean, there there was, that was definitely a thing. And because, again, you know, it was about downloading, where's today, or network connections are so fast that it's just not even a conversation. But I think another big one in that same bucket was resumable downloads. Oh, yes, yes. Maybe you downloaded half and then something bailed out and there was some kind of header somebody had to set maybe it's the range header. So we started keeping

Wow, it's amazing how long it took the range request idea to like, become fully fleshed out and functional across most of the web. And there's still parts of the web that range request still not don't work to this day. I mean, like, it took way too long for that to actually gained traction. Is there

I mean, one thing I had still is mysterious, mysterious to me is, you know, when we put, you know, these, you know, links up that start playing some audio file midstream, you know, you're doing like a clip. And I assume that's a range request, but somewhere, the, maybe it's the client figures it out, but somebody's got to kind of figure out, you know, what the timeline offset how that maps to the number of bytes? Which I don't know for, for stuff that's, you know, a constant encoding rate.

variables all over the map, though. Yeah. But it seems to mostly

work, which I'm surprised at. And I don't really know how it works. But is

it does it does it actually work? Or do we give it so much? So much mental leniency without realizing it? Yeah, that a 32nd, or minute swing one way or the other? We don't really notice. That's,

maybe the browser's just doing a lot of work. And the network connections are fast. I hope not. But what

is the one thing I was curious about? Is if you go back to Okay, the enclosure started to happen. 2000 2001. At what point did it become and it was all radio user land? stuff, but then what was the first sort of big adopter? Were you were y'all were like, yes. Awesome. They're in there, putting the enclosure tag in their feeds.

I'm gonna say it was WGBH in Boston, Tony Khan is what I think.

Oh, good call out. Yeah, I'd forgotten about that.

There's a guy that to NPR station WGBH in Boston, Tony Khan. And he somehow came into the community. And he's like, this is civility. This is fantastic. You guys are onto something big. And I think he puts up some of the first GBH programs on podcasting. And the BBC came in pretty quick to actually they started doing stuff, they start experimenting. What

year do you think?

2004? Five around there, I'm gonna say,

okay. Yeah, I

mean, it was one of those kind of, you know, bootstrap boot up cycles, where we had to get the software out. And, you know, Adam started daily source code, you know, so that there was content to develop against. So sorry, Adam. I said content.

At least you didn't call me a creator. Yeah, sorry.

Yeah. But, you know, we kind of had we kind of had to, like, boot it up in cycles to the point where I think I mean, you know, we're folks like Tony Kahn would see it and see there was a distribution channel there and that he could reach people in a new way. And there was also, you know, Christopher Lydon. Oh, yeah, right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. He ki had had some kind of fallout with, with the radio. Right, which I think he got fired by EUR. WBUR. Yeah, he was also one of those folks I

That's funny that this is like because I think about our own, I think about what podcasting 2.0 You have those sort of hits where you're like, we're new people come on board and do an adoption. And it's really exciting. And it makes a big, it makes it big and moves the needle a bit a lot within the project. You know, and it's like, you know, this person adopted the transcript tag, this person adopted the chapters tag this person, you know, you have all these sort of

I mean, the one the one that sticks out, of course, was was, you know, Apple, releasing the feature. I mean, obviously, as, as, you know, we're sort of ambivalent about it as as an app bill. There's because I was going to kind of succeed, suck all the oxygen out of out of you know, that effort, but it was. Yeah, it was also kind of a, you know, it was it was an affirmation that this is this is, you know, a great idea and you know, we cases

where people started to hate me.

Now it's true with the Apple thing.

Yeah, for two reasons one because I had brought in the evil beast. And I think probably one of the biggest issues we had was one click subscribe, because it back in the day it was go to my website, look for the RSS icon, right click copy, then go to your podcatcher hit Add feed, and then paste it in, and you're good to go. Do you think wallets are a problem? Now think about that.

Yeah, that was a huge issue. And

and so Apple came in, and they created one click subscribe, because they could because they had no they had the whole thing because they basically because they had the index, they had the database, which I was running I potter.org which was a, a world outline of OPML files, which was actually pretty cool. But it didn't at all, there was no infrastructure for it wasn't it really centralized that in a way, of course. And I and this and I learned a lot from this period,

No, none at all. I think that, uh, you know, I mean, I think you lead something, right. Like, these things don't just sort of happen. Someone's gotta gotta lead. And and I think he did that. You know, sometimes I look at things like Wikipedia, and you know, you look at the story. And if you live the story, you're like, wow, that's not quite how it happens

at all. Oh, and that was, that was the best part. That was the best part because there was this history of podcasting. And, and I was like, No, that's not how it happened. I was there. So I went in and changed it. And then all of a sudden, people like you change it to make your role bigger. I'm like, No, I just, I didn't know that you're not supposed to change anything in Wikipedia that, you know, that that you're a part of. So I had no idea about that conversation.

There was some kind of, you know, no, no, no, no moment where somebody like, did the screenshot of the IP address. Like

Rogers Cadenhead. Oh, jeez, that's that. Then he just wrote these horrible, horrible blog posts about me. It humbled me, though, I'll tell you that humbled me.

But so what at what point did At what point did you start to work like, so at some point, Adam, you hired Andrew. Yes.

So here's so Steve Jobs called. And Eddie Q actually, and says, Do you want to meet with Steve? So I had that one hour meeting with Steve, which was mind blowing, of course. And then I had one email exchange with him afterwards. And he said, I think your idea and listen to this, everybody's pay attention. I think your idea of advertising on podcast is a good one. And I'm connecting you with Kleiner Perkins and some other venture capital guys. I know, I think

I don't know if I was, I mean, it was Early for sure. I was in Boston, right. And you were in London. And we started talking and working together on things as early as like the summer. Right.

But What year was this?

2005? I think. Yeah. And I think I just, I just had a, you know, my family just grown by one. Yeah. And Adams like, Hey, we're doing this thing in San Francisco. And

didn't you? By yourself for a while for I

did. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I was hopping back and forth for for a few months or a month or two. But eventually, we got everybody out out to San Francisco. And yeah, there. We had a little office on

Second Street.

Yeah, but there was one even earlier than

that. It was on Oh, goodness. Yeah. We had that little basement place. Yeah. It wasn't

Brannan, it was it was like, it's another B Street a couple blocks over Yeah, remember now. But there's probably no more than 15 people in that building. It was very Yeah. It was early days for the company. For sure.

15 people and how many of those were in sales? Yeah, None?

None? I think None. None? No, we had, we had podcaster relations, which was the job you really didn't want. So we what we did is we we went out and we got all the cool people at the time. Don and Drew, Michael Butler, Callie Lewis, Kelly Lewis, Maj. Weinstein, the bloated lesbian. And we set them all up, we kind of ran it like a record company, but fair, we set them all up with LLCs. And we gave them in advance and we paid them on a regular basis, you know,

And but we'll still be on a podcast by lesbian.

Yeah, bloated lesbian, which is really, really a dude, which is even funnier. And, and then we got, I think, GoDaddy, probably the first one. Because GoDaddy was just exploding. And if you use their discount code, then you'd get a nice VIG for it. And that was how podcasters were, we're making, we're making money to offset, you know, so we could recoup off of what we had given them upfront. But pretty

Yeah, yeah. I thought it might be fun to talk about that. Go for it. Yeah. So first, an apology, right? Because that whole Tech was built on dynamic ad insertion.

Somewhere in 2006, we are inserting ads people. Yeah,

yeah, it was, I remember having to dig around and through the mp3 spec. And I built a system that pretty much lets you do everything on the fly. We weren't doing mid rolls, like we didn't, we didn't sort of have, you know, enough processing power to figure out, you know, topic changes or gaps in audio or anything, but pre roll and post roll was pretty, pretty easy to do, even back then. And so we had a system where you could, you know, upload your your ads, you know,

And like for the ad campaign or whatever, yeah, yeah.

So we were doing we were doing dynamic ad insertion back then. Apologies. retroactively. And

what was the what was the tech stack for this, Andrew? Like, how are you doing these insertions? Oh,

I wrote it. I mean, the the the ad server stuff was all open, it was called, like, open ads, or something. I think later, they became open X. But it was this open source banner ad server thing that knew about banners. And so I kind of hijack that to do our audio. And, you know, the, I think people had figured out, like, for certain conditions, you know, you can, you can just sort of concatenate the audio, but you have to, you

that. You but as long as you break it on a frame boundary in like, Yeah,

well, we weren't doing mid rolls either, right. So all you needed to do was be able to you all you had to be able to do was break off the ID three tags, since the encoding rate, and oh, this was fun. Sorry, it's gonna get a little nerdy. But go for it. I think what we figured out, or what I figured out was that you you didn't, because this was all all the audio was being uploaded by the podcaster. So a priori, you didn't know what

what's the point, Adam is Akamai is that the CDN? I

think it was Limelight if you look at the limelight, yeah. But you know, they never, they never came back and screamed at us for using too much of their space. So I think we I think we manage that. Okay. But Adam comes to me one day, I'm pretty sure tell me if I get this wrong. It sounds right. Hey, hey, can we can we can we use that system to do a golden

actually sold it at one point, the whole the whole idea was, you could do a contest. And at random, like, you know, we'd say the one after 1000 downloads or something, then it would insert this this audio. Yeah, that was and it would be me going. Congratulations, you got a golden ticket. Yeah. And

we actually did this, right. Like, I think the hard parts were, aside from what we talked about already was we knew people were going to write little scripts and you know, try to just, you know, keep downloading and that you know, so I think we wound up you know, I don't maybe we like restricted it to a specific time window to try to combat that a little bit. But we did

we all know that we all know that every every download is an actual listen. So you know that some

days I think there was an element of call and response and that, you know, if if the if nobody had gotten it within a certain if nobody had, you know, claimed the ticket within a certain amount of time, we probably issue another one. But there wasn't actual action, the person who got it had to take and they did if I remember correctly, but we didn't know we started didn't know when you know, there really was a random number generator in there and we didn't know what And the ticket

was just across the whole network, or just one show. I

think it was, I think it was a number of shows maybe? Yeah, it was,

I think it was probably a small number of shows, but I think we did it more than once. Yeah. Yeah. But that was That was wild.

Did anybody win?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The, I'll just cut to the chase, we have to go through the whole pod show, which later became bvo. The VCs were very much in control. Then we had to bring in an Israeli tech guy to run the tech part, which I apologize for. I should have fought much harder. But at that point, I was just running around trying to raise money all the time, because we weren't making it. And I Al was a nice guy. Al cheviots. Al, number one remember him? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, a lot of people went to Splunk Splunk. I actually, I kind of, I think I think the company was pretty nice to me on the way out, I think, you know, there was I got some severance. And no, we always took sorry, our people we always do. Yeah, you know, some time to some time to just be available to consult if we needed the company than anything. But I kind of floated around for a couple of years. Did consulting, I wound up working for stitcher for a while

Now known as compute, yeah, yes.

We made a big move off of off of, you know, our own colo into AWS. And so I learned a bunch of stuff about how to do that, and wound up working with stitcher through the same thing. You know, they were they were just down the block from from, you know, pod shows old office. And, and I think I cold called the guy and just today, look, I know some stuff about this tech, and you know, I know some stuff about cloud, if y'all ever need any help. Just give me a ring. And Peter, the founder, you

Now, was, was all the, was all the tech and bvo plus show was at all I mean, it was at TCL. Or was

Python, if I recall, was a Python. No,

it's PHP, actually. The dynamic ad insertion stuff was all Python. Actually, that was all back in scripts. except the one we're pretty sure when we wrote out the final, when we assembled and wrote the file to the CDN, that might have been PHP, I'm pretty sure PHP is able to sort of open a connection and do dynamic things if you want to, you know, at that time. Yeah, yeah. Well, PHP, right on

the end of the the podcast is runs on PHP, it's, it's super, if you want to run with scissors and live update your production. That's the language of choice. That's the way I was,

there was this framework that I never got to use in any real way, but called Laravel that I really thought was was nicely done on top of PHP, you know, pretty good stuff there. And so

the, where are you now and how many kids do you have now?

I'm in San Francisco, my, you know, kind of on the verge or maybe now empty nesting. So I got, I got I have a couple of daughters who are either in school or out of school. But still in San Francisco where I moved to do to do pod show. Oh,

man, that's so awesome. Yeah. I want to talk about Wherever dot audio, yeah, your your web based podcast app or framework I might even call it. Before we do that. I want to take us back for a moment for the song today, which is not on the this is not a V four v song. But I'm going to pull it from, from SoundCloud which actually it should be V four v. Because we also had something at the time called podcast Music Network. podsafe music networks,

safe music. Yeah.

And we had a license. And the whole idea was, you upload your songs to the podsafe Music Network, and it was a closed network, so you had to register for it. And as a podcast, you could come in, you'd agree to the license, which meant that you would put the song with a link to the whatever the artists wanted, into your show notes. And then

familiar. I heard it on a podcast, but I definitely remember that song. Yeah. Okay, so

this is the explicit version. That's the only one I have. I'm gonna play that and we'll be right back after after you listen to this. This is going back to mid 2000s

Do you remember way back last summer when mainstream radio was such a fucking bomber? No Indian music nothing's being funny. Clear Channel buggers the bottom on it and now you should

yeah cruise box

nice. I was like an anthem. It

was and we had but we have the same vibe now. You know. We have a lot of that that vibe is still there. I love it. I love it a lot and but I can't imagine I can. I'm just realizing now that I didn't balk at the word pod. They pod it really? Okay. Had I even allowed that to happen?

No, that slipped through you did

where it started.

I don't know. I don't know what it was good times good times. And, and I love that we're here we are again. And now we have payments and splits and, and lots of apps. And we're independent. You know, we're not. We're not beholden to VC in general. We're not beholden to Apple or anybody. We're rebels.

That's right. Rebels. So umbilical? Oh, yeah. Really? The the heart of what? That's where you're living at, right? I mean, as far as a core goes, yeah,

there's there's sort of three, three things. But that's where really where, you know, I stepped into the social room. Because I got interested in, you know, this kind of goes to what Adam was just saying, right? I like, as a developer, I sort of balk at the idea of having to go ask someone's permission to put some new code into the world. And this, you know, this isn't new, but the app stores? I don't know, I feel like they, they

real. samsat Yes, exactly. Right now, you

know, that was the call out I was about to do. And I was listening to Sam talk about it. And I like instantly like, Amen, brother. You know, yeah. So, so that's kind of where I was coming from. And, and I started thinking, Alright, well, looking browsers have an audio tag, I can browsers can play audio. And, you know, I was thinking, Okay, well, how do I get RSS feeds? And maybe I'll write some kind of server based thing that parses the RSS and returns JSON and, you know, mess around with

Wow, let me stop moving on the screen.

Okay, let me stop you real quick, every everybody who has gone through, like, everybody who's who's a web developer has gone through this thing. When they get into RSS, and you're like, you're like, oh, I can, I'll just build it all in the browser. And then you start building, you start writing stuff, and then all of a sudden, it dawns on you same origin policy, he's gonna kill you. And you're like, Oh, crap, it was such a good idea.

Right? Well, that, I mean, that's the setup really is umbilical was, okay, there are certain things we just can't do on the browser. If you want to pull an RSS feed from some other domain, and they haven't set course headers, you're dead. If you and I know this one's controversial, right. But if you are serving your browser application from HTTPS, and the feed is on HTTP, you know, most browsers today will refuse to

and so you're saying you know your your idea is like just make it where I can I can just run it on a $5 a month lens and done with

it and yeah, I think I even put some code in the project that shows you how to do that with you can run it for free like there's a few different gets a little in the weeds but there's a few different ways you can run something like this like you can run it as an edge worker whose only job is to fix the the cores and mixed content issues. And then it's pretty much free I mean, I think den Dino lets you run Dino workers for free and Cloudflare it's cheap, if not

That that's, I mean, that's a big deal. It's a big deal that you've done this, because that's a that's the things like this, I see things like umbilical, the same way I see. Britt, like bridges that like like the activity pub bridge, and things like that, where you're taking your, you're trying to, you know, bridge, bridging One Pro thing to another, is a way to get developers that you know, are over here, to have access to a world that you're trying to get

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, yeah, so I mean, that's just a piece of the puzzle, but that, you know, be able to kind of make fully what PWA is what I guess we say, but being able to make these sort of PWA players not have to depend on a central system, right? Because at the end of the day, this is, this is kind of like, I was trying to think of like, what's a good metaphor for what wherever tries to do, or any other consumer of umbilical, and it's really like a, like a, like a noncustodial

Where do you want to see this go? I mean, is this pure altruism? Is it just for yourself? I mean, obviously, it's like, I see it as a framework, because, you know, there's not a lot of design in it. Yeah, yeah. No, I

mean, it's like a really good question. It sort of serves a few purposes. You know, one is for me, it's like going to the gym for, you know, for programming. So it's just kind of a way to learn new things.

And some guys go to Pornhub. Some Yes. Go to the gym. Andrew builds cores

apps. Oh, it's true. It's true. But I also, it's my daily driver, you know, I listened to it. It's obviously really easily and cheaply shareable, because it just downloads as a static, you know, it's just a bunch of static files that download. So, you know, I'm not about to open a customer service and a sales team and all of that stuff. But, you know, it works. It's there. Why not put it out there.

So are you are you going to check out the greenlight API?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I love you. Yeah, for sure. No,

I just settings page and wherever that audio just cracks me It's amazing.

Do you want us your search provider? URL? Yeah,

never all these strings. Yeah. Well, so

the idea was, some of that definitely needs cleaning up. But the idea was, you know, anybody could just like just like with the fediverse and Mastodon, right, like Mastodon is the thing that many people install and and, you know, people go to different mastodons. So here, if a bunch of people installed umbilical then and they wanted us wherever they could point at that one. You know where you can. I think

I find this, this is the case with a lot of things that we open, open source, I don't know what your thoughts are, but you have a you have a vision of a way. Okay, we'll let me say it this way, you get into a mindset, where everything's gonna be open each day, just after a while of doing things of developing that way, that's just the way you think you're like, Okay, I'm doing this, and it's going to be usable by many people. So everybody needs to be able to run it themselves. So

Honey, honey, we need a database of goods. Yeah, right.

I guess I kind of realized that later, is a lot of the a lot of the companies are just running syncs behind the scenes and working from their own copyright. Yeah,

and I wish you know, because I don't want I don't want us to become this has always been the difficulty with podcasts. Index is that we, we want everybody else to do these things, too. We don't want you know, I don't want to become the thing that everybody depends on for the for for data, you know, but but there's that it makes, you know, but you can't force that. I mean, it, it just, it has to be an organic thing. But a lot of times, it's just I will say that way.

I definitely appreciate the, you know, the algo or whatever that you use to create the GUID is just based on, you know, what is the first URL you encounter for that feed? You know, maybe we could come up with some way to allow those updates to be broadcast, right. Like right now, I think, you know, the podcast index is authoritative. Essentially, we treat it as authoritative for keeping track of, you know,

eventually, you know, eventually it has to be just a thing that's out there that it exists

means. Yeah, right now the resolver system I built you know, it just pulls the weekly exports right but that's an s3 bucket now, right? It's going to it can live forever if we want as effective for our purposes forever. We can you know, export out copies of the s3 box I think there's a way to do that if you want to spend the money.

Yeah, I would like to do that I would I would like to start exporting this stuff out through in the in eventually. You know,

I've got don't want that on the fediverse. Dave

on the shoe. Yeah,

can't that be an activity pub and you just look it up, and it just shows up somehow.

It just, it just all works is it actually it feels more like a blockchain kind of thing. Like the podcast or, you know, broadcasts a new URL whenever they change, you know, hosts and that there's some, you know, historical and immutable history of in,

but oh, one of the

making an ordinal make it an ordinal.

A rune, the rune that was one of the original, like, we had some, like for lack of a better term of verbs that we wanted to use in, in pod paying, you know, for a day live live. And that can change was one of the ones that we discussed a lot was, you know, K feed change this, this, this show moved from this host to this other host? Yeah, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a spam Enos problem that you like,

I mean, it'll be good. Yeah, it'd be good not to have to pull from the central source. But I did want to say something about the the greenlight. The I think the thing that made Alby really easy to do, like, you know, wherever, doesn't have streaming payments, but boosts was pretty straightforward, because it's all familiar tech for web dev, right, you know, you do an OAuth sign in, you make some REST calls, you know,

know. I make a song so easy. Yes. Yes. Yes. Easy.

Just ran the command. Yeah. Worked.

Ran, I ran the command. script.

I totally feel the the, you know, not wanting to be you know, bound up the whole vibe of all this stuff I've been working on is hey, let's let's not try to be like tied up with any one sort of system or provider or

decouple? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's, I think that's a big deal. And I mean, other other. I don't know if there's any other apps running on umbilical, but, I mean, anybody, any aspiring web podcasting app can start can grab that and start going. Yeah, right now, I mean, correct.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of hard to tell the story of why it's this way, right. I think most people just would love to get users who don't care about how any of this works, you know, so I, you know, there's a deliberate choice here and trying to build something that that achieve certain goals, you know, above sort of, hey, how do I get the largest number of people on my system but yeah, I'd love to hear from people if they want to mess with it and try it out.

What are you doing now? Andrew, do you have a job?

I do. I do. Yeah. I don't want to sort of talk about it too much but yeah, I work a day job let's just say it's pretty interesting pretty far out

Oh, wow, that's that's so obvious. Oh, man. Let me let me see if I can play the jingle here.

A spot the spook spot everybody wants to spot this Yeah, that's it haha I know that I noticed you don't keep pedia Yeah.

For business cards

but I will say You know, I run a run a software team and you know, a lot of what I do there is sort of, you know, direction setting and people work. And kind of going back to that thing about the gym.

Hey, make sure your mouth wet or guess what he's up to?

Oh, yeah, so you're familiar with with soft skills? That's

right. Yeah, this this helps me keep my skills sharp and a lot of it transfers over. And so, you know, I learned about things that I wind up using in the day job and yeah,

I am I'm so delighted that you came on today, Andrew, it's so fun to reconnect and just remember some of the things but also, man I've said this before I so appreciate that you came into the into the community and just throwing your stuff in there. I love that man. It's really

great community. Yeah, I get such a such I get a real sort of like, hit of just, I don't know, enjoyment of seeing everybody on the community and what everyone's doing. And, you know, some folks have been really, really nice. I think Dobby Das was like the first person to send me a V for V payment for something. I was just I think I think it was because of him that I opened that lb wallet, right? He's like, Where can I send you? And I was like, I guess I should open a wallet.

But it's really is a great community. People are just, they're just really chill and cool. 90% of the time. Yeah. Yeah.

90% of the time.

90 days. Okay. 91 Yeah, maybe

now. Yeah. So, there's a range is a range, right? It's

dynamic. It's mutual. I mean, yeah, that all this all this cool stuff and interesting people. So thank you for that.

Shall we? Thanks. Some people here Dave. Yeah, let's do it. I have some live booths that have been going to shut him. Dred Scott with the 23456 Nice Drib drabs got ma'am, that another one of those Kiros podcasting 2.0 He says right now I have a boring work meeting in my left ear and the boardroom in the right ear. Continuing continuing my podcasting by osmosis journey as I helped my wife launch her new show. A humble thank you to all of those who have helped to continue to

So me and baby man.

It's hard 1234 from Dred Scott. Thank you. Drib another oh, here's the salty Crayon 1182 How the boardroom was going to say something about the nostril bros but after hearing Dave's sound down about the infrastructure, decided to cheer him up with some Doom hold donation in the pipe go podcasting. Donation. Dred Scott 775 Money transmitter go Burr. Okay, the tone record 3333 excellent knowledge share at the beginning of the episode set a review reviewing Part of the

Yeah, Chris Chris last reducer bracket. We got some boost grams here. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm wrong. We have a

by the way. I love I love Christmas podcast this week in Bitcoin.

Yeah, it's good.

I love that podcast. That's great.

I almost messed up and did not read Oscar marry $200.

Sakala 20 is played on him. Paula.

Thank you. Very nice, Oscar. Appreciate it.

Let us know if fountain can do through Zebedee

bolt. 12. Please let us know.

We've got some guest booths. We got Chris from Jupiter broadcasting 50,000 SATs. Thank you, Chris. Appreciate that brother. He says I adore you both. But some of your nostril take is really bad. Oh, you're right. Yeah, you're right. We don't need a Twitter clone. But you're getting distracted by its least useful implementation. I was skeptical at first too. But having a front row seat to what the founding team is building for their future releases as demonstrated

I just want to add that Nasr wallet Connect is not a solution. You still need a node that does stuff. And it may be okay for the noster network of people to set up their own node and to connect that to Nasir wallet Connect. But it's, it's it's not the solution we need. It seems like it but it's not.

And the thing the thing about the thing about nostril that you that you really do have to remember. And and no, but every time I every time we talk about this, nobody acknowledges it is that there is a sizable chunk of nostril development that is being funded by venture capital. And Jack Dorsey money and opens at open sets the window when that money goes away, the nostril ecosystem is going to shrink down to a the size of a nut.

And it's and what I'm seeing I follow J 65. Very closely I biked if I follow this a lot of this stuff. Because I'm never I'm never gonna give up on something. I don't want to miss anything. But he's building a relay into his app. You gotta wonder why.

Well, I mean, a call that running the daemon running the Domus last numbers I saw was running the Dominus relay was costing him nearly $1,000 in mind. Yeah. And that's just not sustainable on the long term for for an indie developer, where he's getting no money other than grant money. So I just my those are my concerns. I just wanted to be clear that the the you're a hater. Well, yeah, and there's also easily Costello 2500 sets, making it all work together. Thank you. Ainsley through to s3

2022 row of dogs Oh, nice.

He says Go go go. Kevin Bay 10,000 sets nice for the those for the tune last week. He says boost

Yes. Thank thank you everybody for boosting. First of all, it just I haven't gotten a report back from music mama. But if I take if I take a look at people pleaser, and that's Ainsley sock 363 Satoshis and of which a significant portion went to the collaborators on that song. And just so many booster grams is so nice to see how the community came together for that and really made it a good experience for them, though, and that's more money than they would make on on on Spotify. They know what

a lot of these, a lot of these are for the song last week. So I'm reading this. I'm reading the total SATs that we're sending out. Of course, our portion of that was tiny, very tiny. 4000 SATs through RP 1984 This is hurting on podcasting. 2.0 Yeah, that's how you do Nice 4321 from even our stupid verse he says value for value 2222 from Jean been through cast ematic he says I wonder if strike it could be used well as a podcaster and or listener wallet if they do Bolt 12

Yep, then we can do it that what a solution that would be for sure.

We need to figure out we it's time to do some testing and figure out where all Bolt 12 can can succeed that yes, I think it's time to do that. I'm going to do the dwelve part of the cast pod bros 32 768 F 32 kilo boost says I came for the podcasting 2.0 chat and stayed for the philosophy. This discussion had me thinking for a long time afterwards about

Okay from where what app fountain Okay.

says people pleaser. Nice thank you for that boost. Ainsley Costello 2500 SAS is making it all work together again and again. So that again oh, this is part two from Chris from Jupiter broadcasting. This is 5000 SATs so he brought in at 55,000 total. Thank you, Chris. He's got a part two. He says we need a skunk lab testing fed him 30 minutes support for boosts. Maybe set up a podcast index Fetty meant Yeah, I guess we should switch in.

I gotta look into fatty mints.

Yeah, no, no, I know the word as all I know. Yeah, it is.

It's it's you kind of pool your resources. Interesting, interesting concept.

That is kind of interesting. Okay. He says I'm not saying we should switch over from lightning anytime soon. But it would solve so many problems for listeners and podcasters no channels various implementations rolling out today. I say we keep an open mind some of this stuff might be useful to us in the future. Maybe there is a reason all these smart folks are working on this stuff. Yeah, we look into fed Amana. I just know the word thanks Chris. Anonymous 2000 says he says boost

boost boost to you.

I said he may be a she see we got some of these are repeats oh they must be like yeah, these are these are coming in from the from the per minute G mean 2222. This is a now y'all are talking about strike. Nevermind. Okay. Sir Bill 5000 SATs go podcasting. Thank you, sir. Bill. Appreciate you. Thank you. Farscape Ian 10,000 SATs he says Adam hasn't seen biodome tragic.

It's on the list. Now. I don't want to seem like a douche.

That was surprising that you didn't remember a Pauly Shore classic.

And Pauly Shore irritated me to no end at the MTV days. But he buddy yeah, I just couldn't handle it.

Was he liked that in private or was that just an act?

He was weird. Okay.

8008 Boob donation from Kyron. Fountain he says I've missed some boosts. So here's an extra to make up. Dave, you forgot to talk about the podcast and tupuna meetup in late July. What's happening y'all?

Oh, yeah. What is happening with that?

Yeah, so we're trying to get get a podcast and tympanum meetup around the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville somewhere.

Yes. The Costello's are going to be there with their bands at Bitcoin.

So we, you know, what are the current thinking is that chi Well, Chiron is going to fly into Atlanta from Brazil. So right around that time, so I'm going to meet up with him. And we were like, Well, why don't we just turn it into a podcasting 2.0 meetup and anybody who's around town in Nashville can just meet up and have some have some drinks or something. So anybody who is going to be anybody who wants to

want to come and be could not be worse. Days Thursday Friday Saturday could not be worse for me. Yeah.

Which wouldn't I'm not going to the Bitcoin Conference no no

I'm not I don't do conferences nope don't do that I'm

not spending any money I'm not spending hundreds of dollars on the ticket for anything like that so but but I will go up there and have a meetup if people want to

there is a meeting of the thank God for Bitcoin dudes. Yeah, yeah. And they're pretty interesting bunch in Nashville. I think it's a Bitcoin Park. Actually. There's like round that there's like there's like four things there's Yeah, it's the Bitcoin Conference and around that we have the thank God for Bitcoin meetup. We have bands of Bitcoin and Texas Slim's cattleman feast

okay so if the bands that Bitcoin you don't have to stay the cat on his face that sounds like a pretty good meetup.

Oh, no, that's that's an actual mea t meet up for sure.

Uh, me AMITA this so the bands at Bitcoin? Is that going to be in the cut? Is that going to be part of the conference? Or is that? No, it's

separate as to the Embassy Suites. Okay, they have the room they have room for 600 people in the audience. I saw that Eric peepee and blueberry we're already working on some kind of online system that not only can you follow along at home watch the video of the bands playing but boost them as well as something they can show on screens there. Excuse me. So we can really show the round robin of how music in podcasting and music and podcasting 2.0 in general value for value works.

Okay, so let's get my my thinking is we try to just put the 2.0 meetup pretty much around the banded Bitcoin thing.

Now Buber is saying July 28. Is that? What is it? Is that Sunday? When is July 28? To take a look at me say July. What kind of what day is that? It's going to be sucked everything so My life sucks. That's a Sunday breath. I have this crazy job that just keeps me busy. I can barely go and my wife's taken me away to Mexico for my 60th birthday. I'm like, that's fine, but I'm going to be doing podcasts

to 28 There's a Sunday yes that's a Sunday.

Oh, that's a behind the scheme's episode they're going to do okay all right. I'm gonna tell there's a lot going on a lot going on but I even Tina's like you know, you should kind of go to that like I really Yeah, but then I have to set up

well it's just so close to me it's only two hour drive ya know for you it's beautiful. It's nothing Yeah, so I can make it up there for something like that. Bans Bitcoin I'll figure I'll post something on the social but please anybody who's going to be there let me know email or or podcast index dot social let me know you're gonna be there so we can put a meet up together. Yes. Because Karen Karen is he is

Do you understand it? Do you understand what that was?

No, I didn't know None. None. Absolutely zero idea. We got some monthlies. Chad Farrow $20.20 Cameron Rose $25. Pod page Brendan upon page $25. Mark gram $1 New Media Productions or excuse me new media LLC. $1. Randall black $5 Joseph maraca $5 and Emilio Kendall Molina $4 And that's our group's

beautiful thank you all so much. It's a value for value project, which means you put back into it whatever you get out of it. That's up to you. We really appreciate all the support people have been giving. Certainly our hosters who are out They're thank you so much. And then even some of those apps like, there you go, Oscar Mary Mary Oscar. Andrew Gromit, man, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Great talking to you.

Don't be no stranger. All right. And indefinitely see if you can erase some of my files that you have there. Yep. Got you some some incriminating evidence. Those pictures. Yeah. Anything else you want to close with Andrew?

No, it's all good. This was a lot of fun. Yeah.

Thank you all very much here in the boardroom Dave brother. Have a great weekend. You too, guys. Everybody take care, Andrew. Thanks, man, my man. And we will be back. Wait at the stop. Are we back next Friday? No, no, no, no,

no fake news,

fake news. We're not back next Friday because I'll be traveling to see my daughter in Rotterdam. And we're going to do the show after that on Saturday. Is that confirmed? Is the week after the other week? That's the week after? Yeah, the week after? Yeah, when I'm traveling back on Friday again, unfortunately, is how it works out. But then we're gonna try and do it on Saturday.

Okay, I'm gonna get to email. I'm going to email the lb guys ready to show and see if they can do

Saturday. Good. Okay. So it's summer months, and then in July somewhere you're going to right? Yeah,

July 5 through the 13th. I'm going to be going we're taking a family vacation. Oh

man. The boardroom is falling apart. And crew skeleton crew. That's right. Summer hours, everybody. So we'll see you in two weeks right here on podcasting No.

You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit podcast index.org. For more information, go podcast.

Drop the dongle.