Episode 177: KatGPT

Oh, podcasting two point over April 26 2024 Episode 177 Can GPT Friday again hello everybody how you doing? Welcome to podcasting. 2.0 This is where we discuss everything that's really happening under the hood in podcasting, podcasting. 2.0 everything that we got going on a podcast index.org podcast index dot social, Learn more at podcasting to.org We are the only boardroom that has bleachers and beanbags. I'm Adam

Did you send in our payment? Our payment? Yeah, for the A for IAB membership.

We're compliant, bro. What do you mean? I don't I don't. We don't have to actually do that. We just say we're compliant. Isn't that not what I learned?

I would prefer if I had to choose a tag the badge to put on the site I would prefer when they said I be non compliant.

That's now now now now now. Now. Now. Is that thing falling apart? I mean, it megaphone is not a part of it. Isn't that doesn't that kind of isn't that 30% of all of all podcasts? Listening apps? Again, I don't I don't know. But no, that was that doesn't make any difference. It's about the the log for the megaphone but they got it. They got a lot of business, don't they? megaphone, they got Romania. Oh yeah. They got Rogan.

A lot of business, so maybe No, no, no. Do

they have that? Yeah, I thought they had Rogan. megaphone feeds for rods, right. Yeah, that's right. But maybe they maybe that's Grogan? Yeah, they got they got Rogan feeds now, we got to make sure these numbers live up to expectations.

Which requires not having the IB

probably correct. Yeah. That's

double checking this because I think initially Rogan was not on megaphone and everybody was like What?

No, I

think he changed overnight. I think I remember an article or something that he that he turned over. I think your went to. And Todd over there blueberry selling host read ads. Now. That's nice. I can't wait. I can't wait for us to do so.

Are we going to do host rails? No, of course. Yeah. Why not? Host

or your download? Or your or your download numbers. Too low? Yeah, join the IB. We can jack them up by 10%.

So I was looking at speaking of Spotify, I'm looking at it all kind of clicked. You know, Spotify reported a net profit. But was it net cash or some? It's some some scammy words. But what they did is they bundled by from what I understand when they added audiobooks. And now it makes a lot of sense. If you add audio books to your app, then all of a sudden you're a bundle app and you're not just a music app. And therefore you can pay 25% Less royalties to artists.

Whoa, wait what yeah, this is I looked into the Spotify stuff that I this is all new to me to explain this to me.

Okay, let me see if I can find it. Yeah, so the way the rules work because audiobooks also have a they also have royalties and stuff, I guess. Let me see where was where was that he should there was a lot here here we go. from finance, finance, US Finance as Yahoo Finance us.

That's cool. Spanish, Spanish Yahoo. Yes. Spotify

is music. Audio Book bundle means a lower royalty rate for us songwriters, but company promises record payouts Okay, that's always

sure. We don't have to but we're going to because we love you.

Spotify is premium plans combining music and audiobooks will mean a lower mechanical royalty rate for songwriters on those plans the company has confirmed that's interesting

what Where's this coming from? Like what what legal legality is this related to

mechanical rights?

So in every country or just the US are lazy,

all mechanical rights are a worldwide thing. I mean, this is this is okay. This is a publishing this. Let me see. Let me see if I can find any official continue Orlando la historia. Okay. So click here to read the rest of the story. Okay, with the introduction of standalone audiobooks, offerings, Spotify is now able to pay lower music licensing rates for the music and An audio book bundle introduced in the US

What about Super core? Super

core takes out I mean, living you don't live is just some stuff. Amazon deliveries

is another bit Amazon deliveries and DoorDash. Yeah, so

so that means that you know, they probably and also with an increase in subscription price, that's probably how they're, you know, how they jacked up those numbers. It's great. I mean, it's a public company, I know how this works is creative accounting. You know how this works. Who am I? Who am I tell him who am I talking to? You

know, I mean, this. This is a great, this is a great move, by the way, because if everybody else is doing it, this test so that means that they they added audio books, not because they give a crap about audio books. That's what they don't tell a single audio book. Now.

nmpa president CEO David Israelite had strong words for the moon. When contacted for comment by variety to appear. Spotify has returned to it, attacking the very current the very songwriters who make its business possible. Spotify is attempt to radically reduce songwriting payments by classifying their music service as an audiobook boom bundle is a cynical and potentially unlawful move. That ends our period of

Rocket noises or something? They're going to go?

Well, if you want that, oh, yeah, it

was this piece will not stand is invalid piece is what it is.

We need to have. We need where's my rocket ships? I got rocket sock homes. Oh, here we go. We need cruise missile. Net pops, you need more than that. Yes, somebody like this. We will not stand for this Spotify, we will get you we'll see real quick attack. Snap props. Yeah, it's

much more interesting with that. Otherwise, it's kind of boring.

But that that totally made sense to me. Totally makes sense at all. And all the oil people love our audio books, you really don't know if that's true. Well,

this book, their audio book, this makes so much more sense because their audio book deal is awful. Like you get you're not even in the same league with like Audible, like as far as like cost goes is not even close. So it doesn't that they don't care if they sell a single audio book. This is all about getting this is similar to their previous thing where they had where they, they clearly were using the increase in monthly active users from anchor to get their MA You rate up on a

I didn't Yeah, I saw but I didn't really focus on it. What does that mean? Yeah,

so right now they're two separate accounts you see you have what you have is a historic anchor account. So when you sign up for Spotify for podcasters, you're signing up, it's different than your Spotify account, okay? What they're gonna do is they're gonna migrate these users over to using a Spotify account. So now when you sign up for Spotify for podcasters you're going to be using you have to use a Spotify account so that immediately they have like six roughly million

I'm glad I don't run a public company anymore. It's so painful.

It's paying the other. The other thing I took out of the Spotify earnings, though, was that when they break it out in the premium users, meaning the people that pay for the service monthly, their share of revenue was $3.2 billion for the quarter ad supported, basically the free users. The ad income from those their share of revenue was 389 million. That's more than 10x Less Wow, revenue from ads. That's that's just pointing

numbers. Yeah, that's low.

It's, it tells me like when you give somebody a chance to just flat out pay for something they do it just make you make more money. Yeah. The ad and the ad route is just selling yourself short. Well, not.

Not in all cases, not in all cases. New York Times had a a big expose a on NPR brought clips. Oh, you did? Oh, let me read the the what caught my eye. The title of the piece is inside the crisis at NPR, the crisis. And speaking of bundles, adoption of NPR is podcast subscription bundle. NPR plus, has also lagged behind competitors subscription businesses, according to internal documents obtained by

is enjoyable then.

And then it goes on to love people. No, of course, that's 10% of our revenue and you can't go back and get it it's like an airplane that takes off with half the seats sold. Once it's gone it's gone. That's an odd comment.

That's a weird metaphor. What

does that even mean? Well, if it's a Boeing you know

just wait for the door to pop then more people will jump in. And it's coming back to the ground just wait on it but pardon but part of what really

got me is was just showed me how tone deaf these people are. Because you know, they there was a lot of dei involved in, in in changing around stuff. And all we really have to, we really have to diversify our content. Right. So it came as a disappointment to some people on MPRs board last fall when they were presented with new internal data, showing their efforts had not moved the needle much with the black and Hispanic podcast listeners, black listeners and wait until

That the agree with John Spurlock the comments on that article were

what was I haven't actually looked at the comments I had. I'm

like him. I never read comments on anything. But but the comments on that article were very good. And they like to just read through the, the, the, the leadership of NPR should read those comments because their people are telling them exactly what's up. I mean,

okay, what do you know? What do you remember any of the comments? I can't actually see it because it's paywall now suddenly, for me,

somebody called it a grievance based network. Wow. And I think that's really what if that's probably the best summation of the comments was that they people just don't like listening to the to a grievance based network. Everything is just negative, and victimization and grievance based. Yeah. And it's just, it just got he just got tired of it. People got just get tired of that thing. You

know, where are you going seeing with with no agenda that we're backing off a little bit on the amount of mainstream media clips we play? Because it's exactly that, and people get to hurt. But I don't want to hear you guys. Tell me what's going on. I don't want to hear the clips this time makes me tired.

I get it digging. Yes, fatiguing that. I didn't realize, but just a side comment. I didn't realize that NPR staff was sag AFTRA. Oh, that have to be? Yeah, I didn't realize that, that the actors? Well,

well, you know, it was after and sagen after merge. So they were, I've been, I've always been after, and I've always been sad or sag eligible, because we're actually both eligible because they're gonna pay dues anymore because I didn't have any union gigs. But then they emerged and so technically would just be one payment.

After after, it was the sort of media side of the

American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. Okay.

Okay. All right.

That was broadcast broadcast, basically.

Okay, that, that, I guess, you know, my thing is, Catherine Maher got a bunch of Ms. She's taking the heat.

Yeah, this is the new, the new CEO of NPR, who? I mean, we've looked at her from an intelligence angle. She has quite an interesting background. Sure, but and you know, and certainly she came from signal the signal foundation before that Wikimedia, which I think everyone knows is is, you know, very managed, very managed, then not by people

at the International Monetary Fund.

Every word Yeah. World Economic Forum. And that's, yeah, that's just a drinking club. But still, you know, she's clearly a globalist. But then a lot of these tweets of hers resurface. And it seems like it's just more of the grievance stuff that the listeners, or at least the readers of The New York Times don't want to hear on their NPR stations.

What I know people are no people like this, like

Katherine or commenters know,

like, Katherine. I know people who look at the world like this and talk like this, like, so. I did. I did what what all good researchers should do I use the podcast index API people search in search for Katherine. Oh,

right

on Excellent. Yeah. To find all of the all of the podcast episodes that she's been interviewed in live listening. I like it. Excellent. And I'm telling you, it was awful. She, when I say I know people like this. Not trying to be nosy.

Are there people like this in Alabama? I mean, oh, yeah. No, for sure.

You mean people that think they're smarter than you? Yeah.

That's what we're talking about. Yeah. The

people like this are insufferable. They just will not stop talking about in arcane terms about just the, the most miniscule that like the it's just all minutia all the time. And it's it's clouds of connected terminology that you're trying to, like. It's like a fog. You're trying to get through you listen to 20 minutes of it, and you're like, I don't even know what she just said. You

are You gotta you gotta send us Send me some links. This sounds like no agenda material. Oh,

man, I brought a bra. These clips are unnecessarily long just so that you can understand what she's like. Okay. The, so she speaks like Chad GPT so let's just call her cat GPT. Okay.

very flowery flowery? Yes. Yes.

Catherine is Cat GPT. So when it's like if so, if you went into a laboratory and said, like, it's 2024 Build me the perfect NPR CEO. Yeah, they would build you this lady. She talks about governance, constantly institutional governance. They're not looking for truth. They're looking for consensus on what is not disinformation. Like, there is so it's just mind bogglingly boring.

I'm getting the electricity ready to create her in a lab.

So clip one is she starts Where's where's this from? What

podcast? Is this from? This is from the podcast?

Possible. Think that's the day we'll need to make sure that. Okay, it's from possible. Possible? Yes, this is Reid Hoffman's podcast.

Oh, another fine specimen. He's a big donor. I think he's a big NPR don't you should be a big NPR donor.

I feel light. So this this. This was from January 24 of this year. I feel like I feel like this was sort of a tryout for the NPR CEO gig. Some of the questions were seemed oriented in that direction. Oh,

that would make sense. You have to go through even Okay, you got to do reads. Isn't the on the board is a board I've been feeling that he's a This isn't Reed Hoffman at Reed. Hoffman and PR. So he's the Salesforce guy. Right. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I'm sorry. Yeah, let me see. Yeah, I have a feeling he's the only appearance board. He would be the kind of guy that you would have to go by, you know, it's like, Oh, you gotta go talk with Reed before we can get you in, you know,

Yeah, I can't tell from here. But it would not. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But this sounds like I think this is this was prior to her being at NPR, of just prior. And this just feels such like a like a job interview or at least just a sort of a face TAs and FaceTime with somebody that was already probably had taken the job because in a couple, a couple points in the interview, she started, she starts referencing to she's using the term wiki, Wikimedia in like

I think the internet has been catastrophic for trust, but perhaps not for all of the reasons we might think, when I say catastrophic, I think that what has happened is not that the internet has destroyed trust it is the internet has surfaced fissures within systems and, and allowed them to grow and grow

SLA s really? Hey, yeah, I thought you would like humanist human SLAs service level agreements seriously?

So imagine, imagine 45 minutes of that. I mean,

I mean, what did you? What do you think she actually said?

I know exactly what she said, Because I listened to it and no lie like eight times. I think I know exactly what she said. What she's saying here, is that, that NPR, okay, so is she talking about institutions? Is

NPR, NPR? Yeah, yeah, that it qualifies

under that under her definition. So she's saying that NPR was built to serve a specific group of people, that that group of people being upper class white people. And that's the true problem with it as an institution that that's how it's broken. Okay, that's the truth that that was that it didn't just break. I

honestly, I would still say just upper class. I don't know if NPR was specifically servicing white people. I mean, you know, Cory Booker percent of

their audience is white is according to the stats. So that's what this is. But this is her, you know, this is this is her frame of reference here. Yes, I got it. She's saying the internet, like social media, YouTube, podcasting, et cetera, just exposed that already existing problem. So to her the core issue and NPR is that it was only serving a core audience of rich white people in the internet, just exposed What was

What this says to me, what this says to me is this is proof. You can't monetize the network. When because people who want who like even like NPR programming, because that's what your podcast app does for you. I put it together. I got my own podcast network of shows that I like, that's what changed?

Well, I think what they did well, I think, yes, and I think, but I think they looked at their they looked at their audience and said, it's, it's a bunch of rich white people. Oh, that's how they looked at it. For sure. Yeah, yes. And then they said, so what we need to do is change ourself, and we'll change the audience. But the problem is when you change yet, is when you do that you don't you no longer what you have,

well, in so radio, then there's a whole bunch of things going on here. I mean, what I ultimately see is the we've seen a very, very slow collapse of broadcast across the board that the newspapers are done is done and but there's always going to be a couple that make it obviously yeah, that hang on to that, you know, we still have, we still have a ham radio stations that that are hanging on, you know, a ham

that's what I think happened to NPR here. They decided they wanted to diversify, diversify their audience. And in doing so what they ended up with is having no increase in black and Hispanic listeners and a decrease in white listeners. Yeah. So they basically went in, in reverse they the new the new audience they wanted. And again, there's nothing wrong with the what they wanted. The new but that new audience they were wanting never materialized. No. It never

got it wasn't there. The audience was never there for what they were making. Yeah, it turns

out black and Hispanic people just don't care about NPR. That's fine. Yeah. Like you can't make them care. No. And, you know, they, they, those populations, by and large, evidently have, you know, media they already listened to, and it suits them just fine. Yeah. So so they, so NPR, just basically just foot gun to itself. And they didn't start by by laying off and chopping a bunch of radio people killed the podcasters,

they shot the horse that actually had a chance.

Your old audience feels alienated and now you're new, the new audience never showed up. And so that's like a recipe for bad times. Click clip two is like, I think clip two is how a glimpse of you know if you think that she's going to fix things at NPR, the clip two, it'll give you a glimpse of of that future.

We've also seen that we now have the ability to record in real time with with examples of where those gaps actually are, which make the the the failures of those institutions even more evident to a greater number of people. That to me is sort of the primary issue relative to trust in this day. And age is not really around, oh, my goodness, my algorithm is

She's not doing it she's not going to change a single thing to her. To her, she said Things like trust in media are secondary issues that we can talk about those later. So what she's she was cut, she came into this gig with the idea of which basically with the exact same frame of reference that they already had, that has been shown to be a complete failure. So Plan A didn't work. And Plan B is basically a bunch of question marks. I don't know what to do.

Well, they're also NPR severely hampered. I mean, that's the history of NPR, with the local station strategy is just hampering. That's the whole problem. They have a network of stations. And and those stations by programming, some of the make

Is it because it's so like our, for instance, our local ABC, CBS, NBC Fox affiliates, you're saying that those things are in television, those things are going to just be gone? Yeah,

they really have no reason to be broadcasting anymore. I mean, yeah, they're still going to try terrestrial digital broadcasting, but it's really over. The model has broken because you just you sell you can insert as at a local level, you don't need a local sales first. You know, all of that stuff is gone. Gone. Gone. And it's way too expensive.

Is that a drag? financially? Yeah. mothership? Oh,

big time. Yeah. And the motherships they've all expanded into all these additional businesses. The ABC now is of course owned by Disney, but they, you know, they're trying to divest of ESPN and the in this, sometimes

I'll add that.

Unfortunately, yeah, well, that's, you know, that's my personal beef. But ultimately, you know, the technology is there, you can do whatever you want. And, and as we've seen, the, the audience also determines if I want to hear ads or not, they'll just load an ad blocker. And that's coming, that we basically have that in podcasting. It's called the Skip 32nd button. That's a form of an ad blocker. Everyone has it. And everyone raises their hand. Yeah, I skip the

I didn't realize that, that in prs. I didn't realize that they've only been around since 1971. Yeah, that

was when the Corporation for Public Broadcasting was created.

Yeah, that was surprising that they're that young. And

also, they really, they really started to rely a lot more on underwriting. Yeah, yeah, of course, it was pure out pure advertising in the podcast market. And so they lost that value for because when you hear the NPR pitch, you know, a lot of you and I listened to one NPR To show religiously on the media, on the media, and and I've actually sent the money for it because I felt so disgusting. I had to send some money. But now I know that it's not going to on the media is going to NPR

The original 1970s npr logo is pretty killer. And

now you also see even though James won't write about it, but you know Megan Markel ba big announcement with the limonada. But there's no money. That's why she's not doing it. They say, Well, you know, we can probably get your 50 grand on the ads, maybe 100 and 100 100,000. May be but that's advertising based. You know, she has no relationship with the audience.

For me, it's just, it's yeah, it's just like the, like the Obama stuff. A Obama's same thing. Exactly. Yeah. And Brene Brown, honestly, there's just no, no, there's no, there's no, there's no organic connection. And let's be

really honest about it. He's my friend. But Joe did not get $250 million. You know, every report says, could be worth up to. Yeah, right. You know, based upon ad sales performance. Yeah. And probably, I mean, I don't know if Spotify sells, if they cut it, because I think originally they had a deal with YouTube. And he let Spotify deal with YouTube and add money there. And so I'm not sure I don't know anything about the

Yeah, you were telling me about that. I'm not a listener to his show, unless there's somebody a specific guest. I specifically want to hear, but you're telling me about about the new, like the ads now. They're pumping them in all the time, every 15 minutes. It used to be that way used to just be a bunch of pre rolls, and then there was no ads during the show. Yeah, no,

no. Well, that everyone, of course, skip those. But those were the early days. You know, I was like, oh, you know, you only had 10 minutes of ads. Everybody knew 20 clicks. Pam there. And these are hosted ads that Joe doing the host read ads. And honestly, you know, he loves every product and uses every single product, I'm sure.

Oh, yeah, for sure. They're all in his garage,

you know. So, but and I think he also I think also he lost some influence to a degree.

Really, from what listen by by

not being on open podcast. I think it hurt him. You know,

not being on YouTube.

I mean, he he honestly he doesn't care. He really doesn't care. Joe does not care. He doesn't do the business. I don't talk to him about he didn't talk to anybody about business. If I said, hey, hey, you need to be on value for value. He'd be like, I talked to my manager. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. He did that show for years, without even knowing you could make money on it. He just wants to do

Right? Because it's a focus on the content. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, other people to deal with that. And he's one of those people that can still be top dog in, in what he's doing, and then that infrastructure will support him. But I doubt that that's the kind of money that's being made. I really, really doubt that. Now, so you're telling me that he has that he has a quarter of all podcast advertising revenue?

No, no, I can't see this. See that? That's the case. But who knows? Maybe

but but All those deals and Spotify gave up, they just gave up. They saw it wasn't working, they save face and they gave up. And here we are. Here we are right back where we started.

The edit audio books fired a bunch of people in now been raise prices. And now here we are.

And Joe is as a much higher output right now he's doing a show almost every single day. I know why. Because he knows that he has real competition. And and I think he enjoys I think he enjoys the competitive nature of getting, you know, these interesting guests first, you know, having them on and then, you know, there's there's a huge benefit to in this case, I think that's the only place where video makes

Every PP said he's back on YouTube is that? Yeah, that didn't realize that. Yeah. I thought he had an exclusive video deal with with Spotify.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah,

that makes that Spotify deal look just pretty much

kind of weak. We don't even know what the deal is. Yeah,

I mean, like, it may, I guess what I mean by that is it makes it makes me question. The reported details of that deal even more. But ultimately, I'm just happy

to Joe's on my podcast that are that I can watch if I want to watch minute, which I don't. But I'm happy. The only thing for YouTube, the only reason that I will look at that is to look at the million comments. Like the comments are always interesting, because a lot of people comment on his episodes. That's why I'll sometimes go take a look at the episode on YouTube or just switch over for a minute. But

Yeah, I mean, as long as long as we pay for the results we pay for the index and break is honestly breakeven on the index this I mean, the the show this show is our is always just been, like, weekly. Let's

just affidavit

is catching up. Exactly. So on that note, let's move over to activity pub, because there's been a lot of posting a lot of stuff going on. And the one thing that did catch my eye in general is Dave Weiner not being happy about the move towards activity pub in general for Federation. Okay, and when I think Federation isn't is the correct word because that's we are, in essence looking to federate the podcast apps. Is that a fair? A fair way to put it?

federate, I guess, federate, in terms of the Fetty verse or whatever? federate,

comments, federate, ratings, federate reviews, federated follows federate, likes federate? Yeah, so everybody has, there's a federation of, well, exactly what it's called Social interactivity around podcasts and their episodes.

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

So does it work yet?

Only me what a day. I'm trying to I'm trying to work up to care. What day was that? What did he What did he say?

He said, Hold on a second. I should have had that mean if

there's a if he's got a legitimate beef. Well, then I mean, I'm willing to listen, I think

it's, you know, it's like it's not it's not not invented here, but it's Hold on a second. His site is loading very slow for some reason. Here it is, when did he post this thing he posted on Monday, the the idea of us all working together to federate, is the right idea. But making activity pub, the hurdle everyone has to jump over is in my humble opinion, the wrong idea. I'm building on feeds RSS atom RDF.

this is this This comment is too vague to, to really even know what what to respond to. I mean this because I mean our RSS is for good, okay, we made RSS work as a so as a as a Pub Sub mechanism. With Freedom controller, I could, I could post something on my microblog. And it would show up on your on your newsfeed, you could hit reply, which would reply in your RSS feed, referencing that item in my

a very cool thing you built there. That was that was pretty amazing.

Yeah. And we call that like a pull pull only social network. There was no, there was no push involved.

Right? The problem was everybody needed something hosted somewhere.

Right? Which, which is still the problem with activity pub,

yes. But the infrastructure has been built and people are using it. That's the difference. Like there's eight people with a freedom controller. And there's millions of people who have an account on an activity pub instance, with some front end be it Pleroma, Mastodon, etc. Well,

I mean, he's, he's right, in the sense that, I don't know what he's, he gets off into the he's using the term interop. And I'm not sure what he means. But I mean, he's right in the sense of simplicity when it comes to feeds when it's just Okay, so an RSS, a podcast app is just polling or at polling RSS feeds to look for new content, that's about as simple as you're gonna get theirs. And that's no different than typing in a website address and letting the page load here, right?

the verb layer is the right description.

And so you know, you're having to push actions back and forth to servers that are listening to each other. So this is the difference between you know, something like just polling an RSS feed versus web sub, or, you know, or pod paying, where you're just basically listening for, for events.

It was interesting, it is a mind bender, in a way, because I was listening to Sam and James talk on last week's podcast, weekly pod news weekly review. And it was so obvious that James was not quite grokking, the idea of how activity pub fits into this federation of apps. And he was he's he can only at that moment, I haven't listened to the whole show this week. At that moment, I could tell like, Oh, you're almost there. But you still thinking in terms of commenting

Yeah, if I if I have an RSS feed, all I need is I need just one file. If I have an activity pub relationship to the world, I need Need a server? Yeah. Yes. And that can Can I need a server that can that can speak and listen both. And so you know that what we're trying to, you know, what we're, what we're looking towards is for with with activity pub in the future is not at all easy.

No, no, no, no, it's not. No,

it's in Dave's Dave's right on that point. It's not at all it's

a hurdle. It's definitely a hurdle. Definitely. But, but we

went from zero to pushing Bitcoin around in real time. Yeah. So that we can do hard stuff. You know, that's, that's not it's, it's not I'm not scared of that. I'm not scared of doing hard things. And, you know, another issue with with RSS, I don't mean issue in the tournament, in terms of it being bad. I mean, like, another one of another one of the considerations here with with with RSS, from a historical

And so there's 1000s of places you can go to host your feed. And it's to the point where it's invisible. Nobody understands I heard I heard some sports guy. And it was a, there was something about ads being placed in front of his podcast and in the way he saw his I Have a hosting company says, And they uploaded everywhere for me. Okay, and you know, and if one of my my episodes doesn't show up on Apple, they say you forgot to upload to Apple. He people don't even know how it works

Right. And that's the part where it gets hard. Of course, okay, yeah. Because you're, you're now you're now starting to speak, speak a language back and forth to each other. Yeah, it's no longer just to get requests. Now. It's now now you know, now syntax is important now. Now, the wire level protocol is more complicated. I mean, these

people being a channel people being James Cridland. Now, there were

others. I mean, he wanted it to be there and he wanted it but there were others like in the original discussions. That was that was a one of the original discussion points was you know, Why should we why should we limit this? And that kind of thing? Yeah, I think, and

I'm not against that. I just I think I disagree with the fundamental argument that shows that a smaller audience will have less people interacting. I'm not so sure about that. Yeah. I mean, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. Some Yeah, it's, the conversation is irrelevant. Yeah, it's fine. Put it in the channel. I got no problem with that. Can I just make one more analogy? Yes. Almost everybody, including me, has a Google login has a Google identity. And this

Yeah, and you could see that that would build up, you would build up a community of peep of podcast listeners who are dedicated, like app level listeners, they always use a podcast app. Yeah. And you and they would be posting, you know, they would be be doing actions back and forth. Commenting, reviewing rating. Adding adding things to play lists, yeah, yes, shared playlists, recommending

function recommending your own pod roles. I mean, you can have all kinds of stuff that can really become a social graph. I said it, but it's really true. It's really true. It's really true. You're you're you're making available a social graph that you can then that will enrich your own life.

Yeah, and that one, and that would be its own sort of community, you know? Yes. Like the YouTube, like the YouTube community or whatever it is it for that evolves around a specific, a specific host or a specific channel or whatever you want to call it. But then it just but then it just propagates.

Yes, everywhere. Everybody can get a part of it. And then that can go out to websites, and more businesses will, will sprout from that just I mean, I can see Daniel J. Lewis, revamping his entire business of this as possible.

Well, if you if you're going to in this, this, this comes back to you know, social interact in the channel, and now you have some sort of some sort of tie back to, to, to the social interact. If you serve some sort of tie back to activity pub in the channel, then you can you have a starting place for pushing for pushing actions back and forth

about the podcast, right? Like, follow and that kind of stuff. But yeah,

not just follow up, like you said, ratings or reviews. So this may be something Daniel may be pulling this data out, to pull into his service

was like someone there because he's almost sent me a note the other day? Are you familiar with this website linked to good pods? We really need more representation over there. And then I'm like me out. Well, my people don't, you know, they don't go to good pods or whatever, whatever it's called. You know, then there's other but the, you have all these little places where people congregate and talk about, you know, they're fake, they're the one or two podcasts or, or group of

Yeah, cuz they get there. They're a comment. Yeah. destination, there are this place where those things happen and reviews and all that. But it's funny, you think that if you have a protocol that that means that you can just do you think that once you have a protocol, you can just extend the protocol. And you don't have to worry about like things like breakage, and that sort of stuff. But but it's not really that simple. Because you still have chicken and egg, things

activity pod protocol? Before we would have to create you know, new verbs namespaces, blobs, whatever it is, can we do podcasts I follow?

You would.

So for instance, so if you live, you look at my profile in on podcast, index dot social, right. And this is, this is just a very basic thing. But you look at my profile, the end, here, you can see, posts, posts and replies media, but they can also see following and I click on following, it shows who I'm following. And you can see followers who's following me. Can we use the active out sub forget if it's, if I had to create a whole new activity pub account? Let's just forget all

making? Yeah, you're making sense. So you would you would enumerate your, like, we would have to basically, we would have to tag these actors, these podcast actors as podcasts through I'm not, not sure exactly how we the best way to do that. Right now. I'm trying to envision what the actor object looks like. But we would, we would basically identify these actors as podcasts, then someone would query your follow your following list. And then be able to see, okay, 75 of these

in Harvard says, I actually have zero desire to show everyone what I follow. Sure. I mean, but that's not the trend. People love. beefing up their profile letting people know, I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's a fact of social interaction. People like that.

Some people like it, some people don't. Some

people don't, but a lot of people do. I mean, it's just like, we now have the podcasting 2.0 logo emoji, which everybody can can add to that which I like, you know, it's like hey, virtue signaling that I am a member of this group. Boop, I mean, this is things that are cool. You know? So these are all, you know, this is a podcasting, 2.0, podcast, all these different things. I understand what you're saying

Yeah. Well, we've done

it before we've done one namespace, I'm sure we could do another one. We've

done two, we've done two namespaces, where we did SOP ml and podcasts namespace. So we're, we know how to namespace stuff. You know, we, if anybody's good from start with starting from egg, absolute scratch is probably us. But I think we can. I mean, in any activity, pub is not going to be the solution to every problem. You know? Nothing really is. There is no, there is no protocol. That is the solution for every problem. You pick and choose. That's why we still use

You got that? And that was gonna be my next question. I mean, am I barking up the wrong tree here or social? First, we have to agree is social interaction desired? And I say yes, I say social interaction between podcast apps is something that will turn it into a very, very powerful entity. I think so too. Is activity pub, the right infrastructure based upon its limitations, versus its availability to many people.

Okay. All right, in my opinion, yes. So when it when it comes to social interaction between apps activity, pub, to me is the correct answer. Why when it comes because it's, it's got this, this is similar to watch why to choose a crit one crypto over the other or whatever. It's, it's sort of a constellation of, of different factors, you have to take into account. It's, it's not super complex. It's got, it's got an ease of understanding to it. It's got market share already,

I'm going to ask you, I'm just, this is how we do it, Dave. With that in mind, the energy so taking your scale, right, is the energy and I can't believe I'm saying this is the energy and the, the amount of I think energy, not velocity, but the amount of veracity that is, this velocity and veracity. So activitypub has velocity noster has veracity. And in effect, if you want to add something to the Nasr protocol, we will find much

Gergen,

Gorgon, we need we need we need this hey, these crypto bros over here with free speech we want to have this added to Macedon. I mean I've just thrown that out there. I understand all the issues and I Alex GATES I love you don't don't get mad just yet. And is asking the question. Are we very, very sure activity Pub is the right way to go taking the velocity versus veracity into account? Because as I've always said, Nasr is a solution looking for a problem.

But no, I think I think activitypub is the correct solution because nostril has the same exact problem

with a smaller group to convince, who may be more enthusiastic to make it woman,

I don't know that I would go that far. Okay. Maybe because noster has the same issue it has. Look how many nips there are. There's like seven bazillion of these things. You look at your typical nostre relay, and it supports maybe 40. There's there. Oh,

yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's always comes down to the instance or the relay or whatever. Yeah, it always,

there's hundreds of proposals that just never get anything done. Right. So it's but

the way I see it is it's entirely possible that just as true fans will become a full native activity pop client, and will service its users with an activity pub instance, a login that doesn't act at all, like a mastodon server, but just does the activity pub activity pub Federation, will that mean that podcast guru basically needs to do the same for their users?

See that said again, I'm not sure I follow.

Oh, instead of me bringing my existing activity pub account, which is typically linked to a mastodon, right? Is it easier to bootstrap this by the developer, the app developers having their own wishes, a whole nother burden, a whole nother can of worms, having their own activity pub running, either in client or as a server to service their customers, their app users for the social interaction with other apps.

I think that's the only way this really gets off the ground.

That's this is this is a big thing to understand. Because

I agree with Matt airhead in the chat because he says he says his comment is Mastodon is a really poor example of activity pub and got it. I don't think he's right. In one sense. I mean, it's a good example of it. If you're if you're if you're ill, if your aim is is to show what it can do as a proof of concept for for a use case, like I'm having

which is kind of death. Yeah, it's because

it's the first because it it, it's an easy sort of way to, it's the same reason to all example, code apps that like how to build an app one on one always starts with like an RSS reader. It's just this easy. Hello, World type. Yeah, here's my protocol. I'm going to show it off. Right. But he's right, in the sense that, that it's a poor, it's a, it leaves you with a poor understanding of the full capabilities of what can be created with this thing. It leaves you it sort of leaves you

which, and I'm least interested in the social media aspect. As most of these things pop up. That's why I'm always saying, let's do something really simple, like a star. If we can all get if I can hit five stars on one podcast, and everybody else can see that on in their app. Champagne all around.

Right? Yeah. I mean, are those things like, play? Yeah. Well, that's odd. Caddys native thing that activity pub could do that you can't do through RSS to speak today. Wonders point.

Right.

Just just seems like I don't know what I do with I don't care if someone's well, maybe I do. I'm more I'm more interested in aggregate. Like what's the rating? What's the what's the what's the star rating? What is followed a lot. This is the stuff that people always think they can get from the index, which we don't have. Like how many people are subscribed to this podcast? So that stuff that was interesting,

Yeah, I mean, this, that the login with POD chaser thing is a way to give a cast first party data about about listener metrics. Got it? Let's just be honest. I mean, that's what that is. But you know, so Nathan said, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the open API for podcasting data. I have got that in my notes here. And I've got a bunch of stuff to to say about that. I'm not sure we have. I can't I feel like it's gonna be a long conversation. So I'm not sure we have time to go

And to what is this? I'm not familiar with this. There's an open API standard for podcast synchronization.

Yeah, it's the open podcast sync API.

Never heard of.

And, well, I mean, it's very nascent, it's facing you. But I want to get I want to get a little bit more off the ground on that. I have tons of thoughts on it. And I think it's an very interesting idea. It could relate to this also. Okay, to to activity pub, I kind of want to I want to let I actually want to do some coding on it. I would not mind coming up with a

reference server for this. And what what is this? So that means your subscriptions can sync between apps?

Yes, subscriptions and other types of other stuff? Uh, huh. Related to, to relate it to your catalogue, and what you're doing with

it, I think that's how I feel like we went one step forward, two steps back, but it's okay, because that happens in these iterative processes. But I just like, I just have a high level overview. And that's, if we can connect these apps together, which I'll just call federated federating. But interrupt, call it whatever you want. I think that's a big win for podcasting for the independent apps that can do it. Because everyone else would be left out in the in the in the

Yeah, just do it right in the app. Click on your five

be, you know, basically a pod roll for app users.

Yeah,

click on your five favorite you know, when you when I heard it on the podcast guru, that should be an activity that shows up somewhere and lead this many people heart this podcast because they like it. And then you could even drill down what else is this guy? Like? You know, I might like that other stuff. There's your discovery. That's, you know, people have this idea that YouTube's gonna give them discovery, but new,

great. Yeah, yes. I mean, the Yeah, and all this the open podcast sync API. I can see that being this is what I want to explore is is a sort of a need to get a mental model of how this could federate. Because I think it can. It The other thing is we want to a promise we'll talk about this on the next show. I just, we've talked about so much already. I don't I don't think I can do Hampshire handle the mental bandwidth of that. Yeah, but because of my notes are like I've got like six

don't have it either. Like, I don't have it either. You know,

I want to segregate my identities out into different use cases. Like I have my podcast index, does social mass, you know, activitypub identity. If I go, if I go and have an identity within the within the sort of federated podcast app world, I don't want that I'm not going to use my podcast indexed or social Id got it, I'm going to have something different. Because I don't like I like the compartmentalization of these different things because they serve me in identities online

worry, the government will give you that don't worry, that's coming.

Waiting for my mail.

Exciting, and I'm looking at this open podcast API looks like a lot of people started it. We're interested antenna pod funk whale cast pod friend G Potter looks super interesting.

The first reaction to it is just use OPML. But the more I thought about it, I'm like, No, this is actually legit. This is better. This is this is better.

Can I talk about a different to interrupt project that is taking place?

Yes, you can.

So I've had some ongoing conversations with Cody from the side stream music podcast. Now he's a radio guy who are either he still is a morning show here in Texas. And he is now putting I think it's actually there's a call of course it's happening right after today's board meeting, which I saw I can't attend their call. Now this

is this is this guy that was on the wavelength show. Yeah,

that's Cody was on the was interviewed by the wavelength, guys. Yeah. Okay. And so Cody really loves it. He's a live radio guy. And he's been, I think he's now episode 25 of the sidestream music podcast. And he knows a lot of the artists and you know, he's a real driver. I mean, like, like many many of the, of the guys who have shows in the in the music in the V music space. Now he he has a good connection

That's fantastic. Yeah,

yeah I'm very I'm very excited about that. So I guess read Yeah, yeah.

I mean to it okay, we're talking talking about me that's that's pretty cool. I mean, if this if this there may be a need to get in there and fix some of the API or about around music there's some Yeah, of course there's some issues with but

the thing is Dolby Das is in the middle so he'll he'll he already knows how to access all that stuff. He knows the the the problems so you don't you know Dobby das will contact you. And I hope I think Barry should be brought into this you know, the podcast 2.0 native hosting companies. They're really the guys that can that can work with this. But I'm

have a native sort of a native experience. Yeah, yeah. So my wife sent me this couple of days ago that she she's a fan of this guy. Allen Google. Or Google rings adventures and Australian guitar as Australian guitarist. He's He's writes beautiful music. Alan G as last name is G O G O L L. Go Gaul or something like that. Beautiful music. Just just

is no one no one to call? No one answered the phone. Yeah, no, they

all just say Sorry, can't help you. Wow. And you're potentially blind lost half your income. So I mean, having this is not this is not just all fun and games where we're all just kind of pretending you know, obviously not pretending we're we're all kind of just having a good time. Writing software. This is potentially important for for real people in the real world making real money shall we? I think having a plan B you know,

should we help somebody out with some real money? I would love to Okay, I got a banger for you. It's a Friday afternoon bang Are You Ready? Ready? Yes all right. I'm ready for banger myself. This is the velvet I heard them on the phantom power music I thought yeah, this is perfect for Friday afternoon.

Salmon she's my sweet she's my speech.

Ask

she's my sweet she's my team she's my sweet

you ready for the weekend here, the pelvic suite shapes. Everybody who went to the bathroom raise your hand.

Oh, that was seeing the yellow pad or on buildings. That's a great name.

If you're listening to this podcast, if you didn't boost during that song, go ahead rewind it, and you can even pause it and then just boost them. boost those guys. Let them know and let them know you heard it on podcasting. 2.0 the board meeting?

Yes. Brought to you by the gates in wallet switching technology. That's right.

The magic gates you and wallet switching technology. Yeah, that's good. That guy kept me awake.

I like that. Yeah, I like you're good.

It helps wake you up after the NPR CEO. Yes, indeed. Indeed. Well, thanks for people.

Oh, you're I mean, we can do we can do another topic if you wanted to. I mean, I How are you on time? You got to get out. Yeah, I

gotta go back to the office.

You got a harder Okay, yeah. Let me let me bring up the life boost. Let me see what we have here. of the ego Eric pp 3333 sets for sweet cheeks played on podcasting. 2.0 Perfect. Thank you very much. dribs got 3456 He says hey, I thought that hive was the solution for all problems. It is of course the solution it is of course a solution. Brian, I'm not I'm not going to deny it. It's a solution. It is a solution. 3333 from Jean Everett's Thank you would just

The Fed doesn't have a budget. They just have a it's just a blank. They can just write whatever they want. And they're called monetizing the debt.

That is exactly what it is Jean Everett roadex 2222 Happy Friday. Happy Friday to you. Todd Cochran has 5000 SATs. He says I seriously need a clone go podcasting. I'll give you give me that. Well, would you look at this 5000 SATs from pod friend Martin.

Hey, Martin.

He lives he says hello. I think I think I missed a show or 10 I've been I've been so extremely busy with life, the universe and everything. I hope everyone is doing well. Yes. We miss you Martin. Boy do I would

just like to I would just like to talk to Martin on the phone and hear about his job and

yeah and his marriage and his house and the crazy country he lives in and you know all that stuff yeah we'd love to know I would love to get happy I saw I saw him pop up on the on the Macedon the other day

I thought I was seeing I thought I was seeing so I had to do it don't make so much someone hacked

his account or this can't be

yeah

let me see we have that it Yeah, hit the delimiter low boosted today very low boosted. Yes,

it's very little but since we did as we did as Pe files, we have actually two very low paper knowledge as well. We have $5 a one off from Truman Gillette. Thank you treatment for Stage five bucks. very appreciative. And Kevin bay from the podcasting 2.0 Endowment Fund he says this is my monthly is $3.54 monthly from the endowment fund I need to grow my fund.

Grow your show grow your fund Exactly.

Todd's here he can tell you how to grow it. We got some good guess boosted we guess we got a pot home. I'm assuming that's Barry. Yeah, that's gotta be buried in 1000 SATs through podcasts. Gary says thanks for listening to about podcasting www about podcasting dot show. Great show was Sam guys.

Yes, it was good show. Good show.

See we got 3045 sets from Sam Sethi Speaking of the devil shows up through true fans he says true fan support from Episode 176 angel number Thank you Sam. Appreciate it. Anonymous boosting everyone see listening our song from last week says groovy yeah thank you Groovy is that is that it is surely that's not it.

Really? That's it? No

that's not right. Can't be

Kevin Bay 20,000 SATs through pod verse he says some somehow some way 1.2 million SATs pass through my little V for V music podcast sets and sounds since I started Wow. I'm absolutely baffled by it all. And I'll spend my portion own activitypub education. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. He's He's a double helping of Kevin Bay today. And we got 3045 from Sam Sethi give us another boost

Yes, yes.

Thank you CSB.

Through fountain he says, How do you Dave and Adam. Today I'd like to recommend this podcast to your audience. Join Phoenix and phone boy for some healthy happy, higher consciousness. With some high tech high jinks on the side. Come experience the Lotus effect for yourselves at WWW dot Lotus effect dot show. Yo Josie

pcsb always on the download. Yo Thank you very much. We did just get I see we got it. We got an x boost. Kami. Oh, hold on a second. We got two more boosts coming in. striper boost 7777 from Steve Wilkinson. Oh, CG works he says we just want healthy adds the benefits that this benefits listeners and creators I've purchased many things based on trusted podcasters a bet. And then under the wire 45,678 SATs from Dred Scott he says boost and go podcast a podcast.

Drib is a double as a repeat customer this week as he came in with our monthlies with $15 from drip.

Thank you, man. Thank you so much.

We got Shawn McCune $20 See where Matt James Sullivan $10 Christopher reamer $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Michael Kimmerer $5.33 Charles current $5 Michael Goggin $5 and con glotzbach $5.

What a beautiful What a beautiful bunch. Y'all are just a beautiful bunch. I really I looked at the tally coin real quick. Guess what, then? Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing from the tally. Did

we get any runes,

runes? You know, I always my my daughter sometimes needs a little help with the rent. You know, she's a social worker these days. And so I'm like, like, Yeah, I'll send you 500 bucks, like $20 fee.

Yikes through?

Yeah. That was the

bit you do debit Bitcoin

transfer Yeah, I like this room stuff better stop whatever this I mean I'm like, I'm like kid you better get a lightning account you better learn how to pay for stuff in lightning because this is getting crazy.

Speaking of that do we need so I've gotten in touch with strike to see if we can get into their API just for no specific reason really I just want to try to understand some I just want to get get my head around a little bit of onboarding, so maybe I can just be better informed about Oh, sure. That's always good things around that. Yeah, and I want to do we need to look at opening up maybe a set channel to strike

we can we can open Well, I mean, yeah, I

don't know how they control that.

That's a very good question. I'm sure that the lb or the breeze boys would know I'm sure they they're all they all they all fat pipe each other. may sound weird. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound weird. Just slightly.

Yeah. Yeah,

maybe we need it. Maybe we need the fat pipe on. I

did get a little concerned. Over this recent was it samurai wallet. Now these guys were clearly doing something. They were advertising, like, Hey, you got illegal money that you got in Bitcoin, the gray markets and black markets will mix it up for you. All right. That's never a good idea. Not a good. But the. But there's all kinds of government institutions saying hey, you know, the, you're not a money transmitter, you don't have a money transmitter

Yeah, that's, I kind of want to get my head around some of that and make sure that's not

really clear, as always, with all this stuff, but some of the writing is obvious on the wall that the main thing is if you can do it with accountability, and KYC just made a mean that your bank should basically be the witches, I think is what strike really does. I mean, you you do have a some KYC connection when you hook up striker to your bank. You know, it's like, yeah, you

have your walkie strike. KYC is you I mean, you have to give them the right info.

So you know, I think that that's just going to be a given in our future. And the, you know, the idea of anonymous money in this world is going to be very, very difficult. Unless everyone's on a Bitcoin standard. You know, it's like we only buy and sell stuff in Bitcoin, which I do in many respects, for lots of stuff. But it's just kind of going to be a fact of life. I don't think we can get around it.

While I love Rob, I can I can say this about Rob because he doesn't listen to the show.

Love to the show. Really?

Yeah. He said he doesn't listen to the show. He said. He said, Yeah, okay. Kay said occasionally

haters, haters over there. Yeah. Well,

he told Todd. He told Todd that Bitcoin was illegal in India and this is not true. Illegal is not illegal in India. Illegal is India. This is fake news. It's their bank. Banks over there do heavy KYC on crypto stuff, but it's not illegal. It's not any more illegal than it is in the US or the UK.

Yeah. That's right. I put Rob's most recent article in the show notes. Did you Wow. Because I thought the title was just show notes worthy. is adding video the future of successful podcasting strategy.

Oh, he didn't put that in the show notes. Of

course I do. Of course. Oh, because you know, enhances your monetization potential. It first it personalizes and it personalization and complexity and storytelling, video podcasts offer a rich platform for storytelling. You can have synergy with social media trends. I'm reading it. Yes.

Can you please play the Katherine Mark lips again because there's more interesting.

I appreciate Rob. I appreciate it, but I just don't see it. No,

I hadn't.

I just don't see. I just don't see it. Wow. Okay. So I, again, this was one of those board meetings where we got in deep and, and I feel like we did get one step forward, maybe two steps back but it sounds like you're going to be doing some deep dives and we're going to come up with some more stuff and I look forward to lots of Convos on the past I'd cast index dot social. Everybody likes to weigh in. I love that. I love that. Yeah, we're a little area there.

Got some more namespace stuff to do this week and hopefully I'll have some. Hopefully I'm going to I'm going to have a better fleshed out idea about open podcast because I want to talk about that primarily next week. Okay.

Do we have a guest next week? Oh, good. Okay. Just you and me baby. Just the two of us just to say brother had yourself a great weekend. All right, everybody. Thank you for being here in the board meeting. We'll be back next week Friday. See you then.

You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org For more information, go podcast

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