
podcasting 2.0 For April 19 2024, episode 176 angel number oh hello everybody. Welcome to the board meeting for podcasting. 2.0 I think this is happening day. I gotta count the blocks to make sure that means it can be super special everything you want to know about podcasts, the future of podcasts and podcasting, what was what is and will always be podcasting 2.0 The only boardroom that will never be
available on video. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama the man with the plan if he can't do it, no one can say hello to my friend on the other end of one building. Mr. Day, Joe's

podcasting, 2.0

podcasting I'm sorry. I mean, I'm excited. You know, it's Friday so havening was supposed to happen on 420 And I think the blocks move too fast and so it's I guess happening tonight. The Bitcoin happening?

Yeah, earlier so that it was like 12 hours. Something approx

Okay, yeah, that will probably be just before 11 o'clock. block

number ad something eight 144,000 or something like that. 808 40 840,848 40,000 Fair warning up front.

I just I just got a call from the you know, this is an automated message from the power company. And they have an emergency. Yeah, they have an emergency scheduled outage today at one o'clock. Now.

I love I love an emergency scheduled outage.

Let me read the email let me read the email to me because I'm an email to an emergency planned power outage. How

can it be an emergency and planned at the same time?

How would the dog is more I got so much going on here with the dog barking.
Need to stop this? Yeah, I

gotta stop. You gotta stop take for one second. Hold on. Alright, I'm back here. So Miss explain what's going on. We have we had a Schedule A planned painting of the inside of the house. Which is great except Tina then decided I'm gonna go visit my daughter in New York. Have fun. So now Now Mike and Aaron who are here are great guys. And I've known him for a long time. But the house is in disarray. The dog is
really good with them. But you know if sometimes like oh, here's some plastic she's like well plastic I've never seen this plastic. So she has to go nuts anyway so no broader in the studio. At least I just don't want you know, who knows is he's a big dog stuff can happen. So Oh, yeah. I can have pain on the floor. Yeah, who knows? Who knows. So the plan power outage 1pm which will be here Central Time. And on the on the voicemail message they said they're replacing a substation
should only take five minutes. Now I've been around

them replacing that entire substation.

I've been around sis admins long enough that don't do that to me. Don't tell me it's going to be only five minutes. Don't lie to me. It's just a thing we like Do not lie to me like that. Now, how long will it take? Well, here's the good news. The studio, including the router and the fiber interface are all on ups. So that should not be a problem. And and then, of course, after 30 seconds, my or 20 seconds, my backup
generator will kick in. So there's no problem there. But when they say substation, I don't know if that's going to bring down fiber somewhere. Because you know, we have a ring here in the hill country. And I think it has their own their own backup power because with outages always kept working. If it doesn't, then I'll just have to switch to another network. So you know, I have sky sky net. sky sky, Link. I've got 5g. I've got everything so it might just take a second or two.

Oh man so badly wanted when you were saying I've got this and UPS and all this kind of stuff. And it'll be I wanted it to just drop right then. Did the signal just vanish right in the middle of this and as we were saying everything was going to be fun.

That would be very funny.

It would be great for the show.

It would suck for the show. We don't want that funny though. The

really short episode it would be just be humor be humor. Like it will be fun to watch at 1pm. Yes, yeah, I gotta keep an eye on the clock because I want to see if we stay in business or not.

It should be okay. We'll figure it out should be in sysadmin world

things only take. They think things are either either unnoticeable or very noticeable. There's no in between. Correct. Correct. Things don't usually take like 10 minutes. 15 minutes. It's either 30 seconds or it's four hours. Ah,

how you doing brother? How was I know you had the most like the stressful week of the of the year the tax time. That's what your company does. You got through it. Okay. Yeah, and well yeah, I'm

on vacation. Oh man, how

nice is that? Yeah, I

did. I've been we've been we live in an old house. Very old. And so we've been ever since we bought it in 20 You've

been you've been renovating it? Yeah,

yeah. renovating it room by room and we're about halfway done. And which I look back and I'm like it's been 10 years and we're only halfway done

we've been here for three the house is only five years old but the insight you know it's white that we don't have kids but you know after a while like yeah the scarf and everything and grimy So yeah, we're doing all that and then we're going to do our floor next year maybe depends. So we're doing the same thing this is our forever house I mean feet first out of this one I'm done.

We were we might we might be here forever too. It's it's one of those it's one of those things and like we we ended up the house was in terrible shape when we first bought it we got it for a good price but we we had to do a ton of like emergency stop the thing for falling down work. Like right out of the gate

was Was this a bargain this house was dry

is a bargain basement. But seeing as hell I'm such a crafty fellow that was able to do that. Do that really quick get all that stuff done. And then now now it's all just like cosmetic stuff. So we're just like, it doesn't the house you walk in it doesn't look bad. It's just that like it has no insulation in the wall. So in the you know, in the winter,
it's like oh, it's so cold in here. And that kind of thing. So now we're going back and just gutting a room doing all the insulation here Yes, I hear it's just all that stuff this like yeah, so I'm just doing all that stuff myself because I'm not about to like drop a you know $50,000 equity line instead.

Oh, no. What at 8% interest? I don't think so. Yeah, no, no, no.

I told him Listen, when I first moved here I'm like, I'm not going into debt to this house. I'm not doing that we're almost

out of debt. We we we might own this house but in two years. So we done pretty good on that. And oh

yeah, that's right. drabbit My studio is in the bargain basement it

is the is the bargain basement studio BBs, everybody.

Yeah, I think people have been around since the beginning of the show. Remember the Oh yeah. Days of me. The room was just nothing but studs, studs and

and what have fiber packing, you know the installations, mineral wool, mineral. That's it. Yeah. Before we have a great guest today. I'm very excited to talk to our guests. But we have a couple things to discuss beforehand. And the thing that I realized I really only listened to a number of podcasts kind of religiously. And I love listening to all I love the hosting company podcasts. I may not listen to all of them all the way through but I usually check them all
out. And then of course there's you know, the the daily pod news I listened to that I stream a lot per minute and and I love pod news weekly review that, in fact, it came out last night, and I was in bed or Hebrews. Oh, there it is. And I think I got through 10 minutes you leaped out of bed and I know it's next to me in 10 minutes like I can because you know Tina is not
here. I can listen to this embed, fall asleep. The dulcet tones of Sam Sethi and but I've listened to buzz cast, you know the what does that Libsyn Cass new media show the future of podcasting and everybody's talking about YouTube and I have
to take a stand. I gotta say some, okay, say it to first of all, I realized the reason why everybody's these these people, not everybody, but the reason why these people talk about YouTube so much that because podcasting is stagnant right now that all these companies and the people who are hosting, they all really need new podcasters to sign up. That you know, because you have churn and you're hosting companies and, and you need to keep that going. That's a part of your new business.
And, and Todd is actually much more open than he realizes talking about ROI on doing conferences and why he's not going there. Because, you know, he's got to sign up people. And you know, everyone has different services. They don't talk about that much. But now you want us to produce your podcasts, we can do that too. But their business as our most businesses are reliant upon getting new people in. And I think this big mistakes being made here, because first of all, to have
YouTube show. The YouTube music, YouTube Music app, there's just not a podcast app. But you know, I hear Daniel J like now it could be really great. I hope they make a great I don't I hope they burn by hope they burn and fail. These people hate us. Please understand, Google hates RSS, they hate it. They ruined Google Reader. Then they aggregated everybody in. Everybody loved it, and that, oh, no, we've got to do
something else because they make money. But if you think that they are going to really support podcasts, the way a podcast app does, you've got another thing coming. There's no business model for them in that. And I understand everybody's like, Oh, yeah, but there'll be discovery. No, no, they make money by getting you to watch as many videos as possible. In his in as long as they can keep you on the product. They're not going to be recommending to our podcasts, or even one hour podcasts. That's
not their business model. They won't let you bring your own ads. They hate you. Don't do this is a trap. And it's like, Are we stupid? These people do and I'm not against video podcast. But you can even hear what's going on at the conference is why the buzz cast was quite good about this. Well, you know, it's like, you know, in addition to a microphone, but I need maybe some editing software. I need a podcast host now but I need to do a video right? Everyone's just got a new
video. And you let the enemy into your conference BLET these these horrible on the people themselves? Not horrible, of course. But you let this company who does not like the the basic fundamentals of podcasting, RSS, do not want that in existence. And you're letting them in, and, and pet you and fawn over you. They don't mean well, they want to hijack it. Because I mean, who turns Why did they turn off? They're perfectly good app, Google podcasts was a good app. But I didn't use it personally.
But it worked. It had all the all the functions and features you want had a lot of users. And let's just why did they close it? Because they don't want that being distributed. That way. They can't make money off of it. It's It's amazing. I mean, Apple can make money off of Apple podcasts because they sell it with their phone is a big part of that experience. It's been that way for, you know, 12 years or whatever. And it was 20.
Whenever no more than that. Yeah, 12 years. So all of this video talk, which is, it's it's just people who don't realize, I think because no one's really doing this. No one's malicious. But you're you're you're trying to get people excited to do podcasting. And the Borg has literally kind of told everybody and even, and I have to take a stand on this too. If you're going to say, well, and I'll say it specifically James, and I have great respect for James, by the way, I loved his keynote, I
thought his keynote was awesome. I don't know if that URL was public, for everybody of his keynote at Podcast Movement. Great. I've never seen him present great energy. It was funny, you know, he had it was a very, very, very good keynote. But I'm just not going to say that. Oh, as long as the audience calls it a podcast? No, I'm going to I'm just going to be a hardcore douchebag about it. Because a podcast is is an RSS feed with an enclosure. That's it. Yeah. And anything
else is a video show a YouTube video. It's just it's not the same thing. And if the audience wants to call that fine, I'm still gonna say that's not a podcast.

I'm actually nervous for the podcast ecosystem that I'm saying ecosystem specifically because I think podcasting itself as defined by our RSS feed within within with an enclosure, that's just that simple technology that will be around forever. But like the the podcasting ecosystem, and people we know and love within that system, that's actually nervous for that. I'm in the reason is because so like, Yeah, I'll listen to a new media show, too. And Rob, so Rob, and Tom, were
arguing about video for the 17th time. And then Todd said, you know, Todd's like, well, that, you know, when most people shouldn't do video, I mean, this is not, they're not going to most people are not going to be successful with video, blah, blah, you know, and then Rob says, well, then was everybody was everybody's talking about video.

Questions. He's doing it. And

there's a simple question. There's a simple answer to that. And it's one we've talked about before. The Isn't, quote unquote everyone is talking about video. It's not everyone, it's the advertiser is the dish is the digital advertising brokers, dealers agents. Yeah, that's who's talking about it, because they see that the the quote unquote $2 billion within podcasting was always BS. There's not $2 billion in podcasting, podcasting was the last the last
five years of podcasting. Six years or roughly, of podcasting was an anomaly.

Yes, it was free money anomaly, a free money anomaly. It

was a free money induced anomaly. And that's it. So they're shifting. So the digital advertisers are shifting out of podcasting into YouTube. Because Youtube is where all their that's where the cash cow is for now. That's where everybody that's where you can get all the metrics and, and all that it's the, it's the latest version of Facebook, for me for media for video and audio. They think they can get all the targeting, they want all that kind of stuff. Everything's
moving that way. Therefore, all the apt because podcasting is has, has sort of unknown has, like they've unhealthily tied themselves to the digital to digital advertising. They're getting pulled along with it over to as this exodus happens over to YouTube, in its catabolic to the to the podcast, industry. If you say, YouTube, is podcasting, you are going to cannibalize podcasting. And so it means that you're going to
pull audience away from podcasting into YouTube. And then you're you're going to wake up one day, and the you and the podcasting industry is going to be it's gonna be completely decimated. I,

okay, I'm not that fatalistic at all. You're we're not going to see NPR, BBC PBS, we're not going to see these big high end productions available in audio moved to video, that's not going to happen, they have no money for that. They are they said the same thing about radio when television came along. What I found and I am this is nothing personal, nothing person. I love
everybody. I love you all like brothers and sisters. But I do not want you to succeed by building a great podcast app, I don't, but I don't want them to do and a great podcast app that is is is a lot of work, a lot of dedication, a lot of listening to your up to your users. And you have to be you know, it's it's a lot of work. And a lot of love goes into that you can and this is why no one's really done it successfully. And since Spotify couldn't do it, no matter what they try, okay, they
got 30% But whatever, I don't care. It's it's irrelevant. It's completely irrelevant. Our job here is to make sure that any type of podcasts whether it's audio or video, doesn't matter. My my app that I use does video too. And it seems to work just fine. I'm not that interested, mostly. You know, the only video I've really watched these concerts, which work fine. But in general, I'm an audio guy. And I would wager that a lot of the so called podcasts, everybody watches, I think a lot
of them listen to it. Now on the on the on a YouTube app, click Close the screen doesn't matter. This is a beautiful medium is very cost effective to produce. That's not going to go away. I don't believe the audience the audience is used. This is like religion. People who use overcast love it for the features that overcast delivers to them. But which is not
specifically podcasting 2.0 features. In fact, there's none of those, the new audiences that we've been bringing into 2.0 I mean, man, when we changed a little bit of the function about chapters, which changed the table of contents, and that has been since corrected. It was like it was like, you know, Jihad had been committed, like what my chapters are. It was amazing, amazing what took place. But even even so, I use the apps that I use for specific and actually I use different
apps for different reasons for different shows. But that's all very it's a very, very personal experience. And the go ahead me Oh, go ahead. Google. Go ahead YouTube, try and build a great app that does Music and podcasting and video and audio Good luck, it's not going to be very easy. Our job here and our guests, I'm looking forward to speaking to our guests today about it. Because I think we can also help the add the mark, I'm going to call it marketing, not advertising, I'm going to help
the marketing side. Because there there are opportunities that the all these other platforms and and the agency, I want to remove all of that. I would love to remove all agencies, all middlemen, all everything in almost like a value for value, man. We'll get to that later. But we're wasting a lot of time and energy. I would much rather talk about
activity pub and the how we're fed defying these apps. And wow, what a beautiful energy I saw after the board meeting last week, everybody's posting links and we got ideas and there's Oh, this guy's doing that. And we've had some private emails, like you know, here's what I'm thinking about. Then we have podcast a P, which Stephen released. And, and I finally figured out the right way to to promote it. And I did it on Twitter. And man, I got so much feedback.

Good. Great positive feedback. Only

positive people like wow, this is so cool. I can't believe it. Like I can search for my favorite podcast and now I can follow it in on my on my Mastodon server, very positive feedback. Just so positive, in fact that I'm like, oh, there goes the power. Okay. Am I still on? Yeah,

we're good. Okay, good. So we cut were cut over. Yeah, we wound up as right now on ups

now. And we should be no sheets did exactly one o'clock and generator coming on? Takes about 20 seconds. So I'll go check in a minute. Because I don't know if I can hear it in the studio. It's outside obviously. The where was I? Oh, the feedback. SAP? Yeah, it was so positive. That people give me credit. I'm like, Whoa, stop. No, no, that's Steven. That's Dave. You know, it's everybody. Everyone's a big part of it. But that's no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just here to promote it. And
I have to say, it's, it's a very exciting feature. Okay. I think that's yeah, all right. Generally, yeah. Can you hear me? Adam? Yes. Hello. Hello.

Adam. Can you hear me?

I can hear you. Johnny came on

here. And I'm just messing with you, Dave.

Are the generator just kicks in beautiful.

Yeah, we're five by five. Sounds great. Awesome. There's no, there's no generator.

I'm literally sitting. I'm literally sitting here going like, wait a minute, if I hear him. I'm like, is this what sometimes it can be? It can be a buffer, right? It can be a buffer in the in the software. I'm like, maybe it's buffered and clean feed day. Anyway, and so what I said and here I think I don't have in front of me. But my boost was something to the effect of now you can comment, like, rate and review. Not entirely true. Your favorite podcast apps on any Mastodon
server. And as I was typing that out, I'm like, by the way, that's kind of true.

Like, if you just insert not entirely true, and then you can say anything you want. You're welcome. I make millions of dollars. Not entirely true. But well, I mean, you can

rate and review was just it would be tax, it wouldn't be anything that's aggregated.

No, I think okay, before before I get before I lose this because I will lose it if I don't say it right now. The I'm thinking that other other services could put this into their products. So like, the first thing that popped into my
head was Nathan with episodes.fm. Yes, when you listen to like when somebody gives you an episode.fm Link, one of the things on the page where that is could be subscribed to the podcast on Mastodon yes, we're activity your whatever your activity pub client is, like, like that could be integrated into multiple different things to get sort of like the flywheel going.

Yeah. There's, there's one thing that I'm struggling with. Okay. Because when I publish now, I go back and I publish again for many reasons, you know, if the chapters have the chapters have to be created after the RSS feed is created, because hyper hyper catcher, which I use requires that you know that it has the feed before it can add common chapters to it. So that's worked fine. I put a dummy chapter in
there and just updates. I also put a dummy. I put a dummy transfer transcript file, but, and then I also go after the fact and put in my route post, because I'll post and say, Alright, here's the episode. And then I'll take that route post so that people posting on that can immediately start to comment on it. But what I think should really happen is the post that goes out and is available on activity pub, I think that should be the route comment.

Maybe I'm wrong. Say that again? That again? All right.

So when I when I post this episode of podcasting, 2.0. Eventually, what pops up on your federated timeline? If you're subscribed? Is the post birth right, the episode post? Should that be the root post? For the social danger? Are

you talking about what comes from the bridge? Yes.

Should that be the root post? I mean, it doesn't have to be I understand what if people start if people start subscribing to to a show on activity pub, the natural inclination is to comment on that post. If not, maybe on the one where I announced the show. Does that make sense?

In the AP in the AP bridge, when a new episode gets posted, if there's a comment thread, oh, it there's a link.

Okay, there's so much information in there. Probably hadn't seen it.

Yeah, if you click through to that, it will take you to the root post and you can come in there. Kind of like them being separate.

I mean, yeah, okay.

It's not it's not like a real I'm not religious about it. But I kind of, I kind of do think that it feels better to for me, it's for some reason that I can't really describe. Yeah, let

me let me just take a limit. Take a look at what a post looks like. I'll comment. Okay, no, you're right. You're right. You're right. I actually I posted something. I don't know if you saw that. It would be great if you could add a hashtag podcast to each individual post. So that when I'm in my Mastodon, I can just say, find me all hashtag podcast posts. So I can look at everything that's come in. Does that make sense?

It does what this feels like. Do you want to be on bringing the guests because of a this? He's

but I figured the longer we leave him waiting, the more wine who lived had fun or is the fun, he's got more fun. He's going to be

like, This is wrong to talk activity public.

You're right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are very proud and happy to welcome to the board room of podcasting. 2.0 The man who is not just the I think he's more of the producer and co host but co hosts of pod news weekly review. CEO of true fans, ladies and gentlemen, the one and only Mr. Sam sevi. Oh, wow. Thank

you for that. Thank you. Thank you.

He left out. You left out titular head of the podcast. Oh,

yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. spokesmodel. For the podcast Standards Project. You're I'm sorry. That was full power. On my part. Sam. Well,

most important role. Yes. Thank you very much. Good evening.

Good evening. Good evening, sir. All right. Now he's here. What do you want to do with them? Dave? Well, what do you want to do?

Well, I mean, this, but the reason I thought I'd bring him in, because this was brought up once before about the hashtags. And it was debated out a little bit whether it should just be podcast, which kind of ends up if your federated could end up being a bunch of stuff. That's not actually podcast episodes, or if it should be some unique hashtag, to like the AP bridge or something that says, like this is, this is actually an episode of a podcast.

That's, that's a point. And

I don't know what the answer to that is. Do you have thoughts? Yes. Am

I on that one? No, but I do have thoughts on what Adam was saying. I'd actually like to see the social interact tag attached to the follow tag, which I think because you're going to be putting out a graphic which is the episode Alt or the podcasts are and then nothing below that would be great because you're otherwise going to have two posts and people are going to look at that and go, Where do I start? Well, it should be me

me just makes a very good point over there in the boardroom. You says that then you won't be able to moderate it if it comes from the bridge. Which I think which I think is a very fair and I'm okay now that I haven't actually seen it but now there's the common thread right there and hyperlinks. I think I'm okay with that. I understand where you're coming from Sam. But I hadn't even thought about the moderating point and I think that that's a very fair point.

Well, I've got to make some changes to this anyway. Change Yes. Those kind Yeah, I'm getting that because where it says so I'm gonna change eventually as soon as Nathan gets his episodes.fm updated to handle things that are non on iTunes. Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to put that in and take out all of those individual links. Ah, perfect.
Perfect. Yeah, but somebody else had a good a good comment the other day saying that the posts that are coming from the bridge did if there's if the episode art is just the same thing as the album art as the fee level or the production posts that it should probably should not be immediate attachment within the post because it just makes it kind of bigger and more you know a bigger deal

I'd love to see my art that because I have new art for every episode.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like if if you have a show that doesn't have Oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're because right now in that case it just the episode it just posts the same art every single time. The body of the

post still kind of caches my art but

oh, is it still? Yeah, I don't know how to change that. It's mastodon. I don't know how to invalidate a remote mastodons cache. Or if you can even Well, it's

funny because it's art from three episodes ago.

I've noticed that there's a lag it'll be for a while and then it'll catch an update.

It's not a huge problem because I see you're right. The episode art is right there. Actually, you know it's almost like a feature now. Just like has has has has old art as the as the badge and then it hasn't had the new art on on below. It's a feature like

in the release notes. It says hold old art is a feature Yeah. Did so when you got when you got elected as the SAM as the head of the of the podcast, Project grip

meeting, LLC, I was thinking is this meeting.

It's like a ceremony where that what like, if, if you're elected, like the white smoke comes out of the chimney, not elected the blacks, not like

any had to lay down like that he had to lay down in a casket and confess his deepest secrets to them first, like Skull and Bones.

Now, this, this all came about because when the PSP was formed, what 18 months ago, I thought it was a good idea. It was going to be all the hosts the apps getting together and I recommended a couple of other people forward for it other than myself and my thought, you know, somebody else needs to step forward. Because it was a case of all the other people we get were really excited to do, but nobody had the job of actually doing it. And so I recommended other people and nothing
happened from that. So over in LA, I spoke to a couple of posts and and I said look, okay, if if everyone's okay with that are happily step forward and try and do it for a year. And then someone can take out from from me in a year's time, whatever. But I've enjoyed the last two weeks, I've been having a call with nearly every host or every app, and talking to them about what tags they got, had they get certified where they are in the cycle, what's coming out with 1.1. So it's been pretty busy.
But I think it's been good fun. I

want to thank you. You are uniquely qualified for this job for this position. Of course not a job because you are uniquely qualified. Although I am not on the mailing list. The the fact that you sent out a press release, about transcripts two and a half million transcripts, beloved, that that is exactly what this group needs. So I hope you're able to build that up and and actually, I think you will, I mean, you've been product manager, marketing manager, you know how to do this
stuff. You're good at it. I like that. I think it's a very good choice. Did they know how to do this? Did you say hey, I want to do it or Yeah, yeah. Everybody finally we got a sucker to say yeah, sloping

shoulders everywhere else. Yeah, he'll do it. Well, okay, fine. I actually had been frustrated. You probably heard me talking to James. No, I

never noticed. I never noticed it. Never Noticed. Yeah.

But like I think the way I look at it is The group that we are podcasting to to our group, I think if the r&d group, you know, we're coming up with face sevens and crazy stuff, the phase evens popping up. And it's just fun. And it's great idea. Not all of them will make the cutting floor. But I

prefer I prefer skunkworks. Yes, that's more, that's more of a skunkworks.

But the the group that's in the middle should be more of the marketing and PR team going out internally, between each of the hosts saying, look, here's what's happening, you're in the group, you should be doing this catch up or slow down, or whatever it may be. Don't slow down, but and then I'm also working with the podcast Academy to do a series of web seminars. Because the thing I noticed was, there was a whole bunch of people who went to this thing called the
zombies. And I wouldn't know one of those people and they wouldn't know what podcasting 220 was, but we all pulled

very smart, very smart, and I love that because that will actually make them more useful because I find them highly unusable, may end up and I'll say it, Sam, so you don't have to in the in the podcasting space. It's great to have, you know, an award ceremony. I'm against them. I think it's an anachronism, a rack no RISM an inaccurate help me Dave, an anachronism anachronism in general. And, and I despise Awards where you have to pay to to get in, but okay, that's
fine. It's a business model. But you're absolutely right. They they have is the people who are there have visibility. They need to it's really for them. I think the podcast Academy, the members themselves, the board, they are the ones that really need to do this, because they're all wrapped up in their own stuff.

Yeah, and they've been really supportive and wanting to do it. So we're gonna run through in the next month. Yeah, we'll see how they go.

So put me on your mailing list. I want to promote this. Because I didn't have I didn't have a press release to point to about the transcription. And this is good. It's good stuff. I'm excited

to take it as given.

I want to get back into activity pub, because you were very instrumental in getting me really excited about it. And so first of all, you're right. Kudos. Good job. You were pushing it. And I was keep pushing back. Lightly but it really just because I was ignorant didn't understand it. By the way, did you know that? Another word for nice as ignorant. just learned that the other day?

I know a lot of nice people. Exactly.

br You are the CEO of true fans. And true fans is a web app, which functions very well as a progressive web app. I mean, if I can just have one little bug report that I think I've mentioned before, but I'm one of those guys who uses a password manager self hosted Password Manager. And it doesn't always work that well, for automatically, you know, fulfilling, but even if it does, because for some reason was true fans, I'm always being asked to log in what am I doing wrong?

Me to find out

for certain? Because, yes, go ahead. No, I

think you know, one of the things I'd say with true fans, we we've accelerated to try and support so much, we need to go back and have a look at some things that probably have rough edges, and hadn't been fully completed are

good, because it deters me from using it. And I'm just telling you, because I love seeing all the features and stuff you're using. But I'm like, Ah, I log in again. So I gotta now I gotta go to my my app, I gotta you know, have to authenticate and then he won't autofill for whatever reason I'm not saying that that's true fans, so Okay, good because it seems like other people have that issue as well and and so
I'm glad I'm glad you can take that back. I heard you on the very nice to be usurped who what show were you on two days ago? All about home pod home thanks Barry thanks very apt to Barry like oh let's let's have him on before podcasting. 2.0 right Dutch man Dutch boy got swept yeah we did. We got swept we got we got scooped scoop actually was great because it was you know as a nice long form interview. And I love hearing about mo your developer. I thought that was a fascinating
story. Which we don't have to read discuss. Go everybody listened to is it all about podcasting, I think is what it's called.

Just about thinking about what about podcasting? And I

listened to it every single episode. I love the people he has on it's a great show, but he did scoop us and I'll never forgive him for that. Two things I want to ask you about your viewer your now you probably won't disclose it. But you're one click top up ads. SATs seems to be something genius that no one has figured out. And, and you wouldn't tell Barry how you did it. But I need to ask are you do? Are you a money transmitter? Because I'm worried about, you

know, I'm gonna I'm gonna reveal it like, I thought about it very carefully. Should I tell other people how I've done it? And the answer is yes. Because the more apps that do it the Thank you, brother, thank you get involved. I don't need to keep that as the secret sauce. So look, one of the really interesting things it actually came from this show when I was listening to Oscar and Oscar was talking about primal and I, oh, my god, primal cadet, how are they doing it?
Okay, so I looked at primal. And it's basically stripe has got a really cool Apple Pay integration API. You don't have to go to apple and do anything with the Apple people. You can go straight to stripe, they do all the work. We took the API. And we basically do a straight transfer through. So if you say I want $10, we take whatever that $10 is in SATs and we then use the OB API. So it comes out of the stripe API, we confirm the payment, and then we do an instant transfer straight across.

So it's running from your account. In essence, yes.

Now we're going to OB have got two new products coming out. One is called OB Pro, which allows you to go over the 1 million sat level, and then they've got a cold of wallet node that's going to work on Start nine and Umbral and that's unlimited. And so yeah, it is us doing very,

very smart idea. But are you are you worried? Legality wise, are you worried? Because I don't want I don't want anyone to get in trouble.

See right now. We all have permission rather than and forgiveness later? I don't know. Because nobody, who would I ask? That's where I get Janet Yellen.

The President Yeah, the president. Yeah.

And he's basically I think he's,

I think is genius. I love that hack. I think it's a great idea. And thank you for telling everybody how you did it. Thank you. That's, that's very, very cool.

No worries,

very cool. There's so much I want to ask you about but since we're talking about the, the quote unquote, digital advertising world. And you even boasted about this on the last show, and then I have some updates of my own. And I'm going to try and describe what you're thinking about, or what you put into some degree have implemented. And the and it's one of the big promises of the internet. And there's really, there's, I used to say there's two, but there's three promises
that the internet had in the in the late 90s. And that we're never delivered on the first one was, your refrigerator will know when you're out of milk, it will automatically order new milk. So that's, that will never happen. Good luck. You all lied about that. The second one was micro payments, we fulfilled that micro payments are here we're doing it, it's we call it something different, but that's what value for value streaming
Satzes, it's micropayments beautiful. The third one was you will be in control of your time, and you will be compensated for your attention. This was the attention economy never delivered has never been delivered on it, because you need the previous micropayments to really do it properly. Correct. Now, the idea is that and I have all kinds of specifics in my mind, but it's going to outline it. And the idea is that you can ask your audience to participate for
their time to listen to a marketing message. I'm specifically not saying advertising because the I don't like that marketing, message marketing. And, and you can decide if you want to do that or not, and you will be compensated for your time. And maybe if, if the marketer is lucky, then Oh, okay. I'm interested in that product. Correct. I'm just worried. I'm just gonna say up front as I go through this because I'm coming at two with an agenda. A friend of mine is a
very successful product marketer. He has a product that he that 55% of North America, everyone in North America uses this product, the ACE they are a the category product. This is eligible for this product. And now it is a subscription based product or something that comes every six weeks or every you know, like almost like coffee. It's not coffee, but like that. The end he wants to play ball. He says he's all in that he
loves the idea. Yeah. And he actually said, can we then also, the compensate the hosting companies and the app developers. So this is the kind of guy I love, then, and while we are value for value mindset and find advertising to be a
problem, I love to zig when others are zagging. And if everybody is running around the aisle complaining about iOS 17, aganda, if everybody is complaining about pixels, not loading and all this horrible attribution stuff, if we can offer marketers, people who have a product service, board, the Word of God to market, whatever you want to do, without having to go through agencies and spreadsheets and all this stuff,
I would love to make it available. And in particular, for the longtail everybody who has under 10,000 downloads a month, whatever that means. I want them to be the ones that benefit from this. How does that sound?

Great to me.

All right. Now, can you explain what the heck you're doing?

Yes, so Well, as I said

yesterday, this adult diaper subscription is possible. That's not the one but it is possible.

So about a year ago, I came up with a concept called negative SATs. And I did that because I thought it would be a great way for creators to pay their listeners fans for their time and attention. So it might be you've got a brand new podcast and you have a trailer. And you want to promote that.
And so you might put a small marketing budget aside, you know, 10,000 SATs, 100,000 SATs, and by putting it as a negative SAT, the flow of money goes from the Creator to the listener for the time they listen, the minute they stop listening, the flow of money stops. So that was the original Genesis of the idea. And then whoever, and whoever created the genius of remote item. And finally, time splits over the summer, last year was
increased listening to this and all the pennies dropped. Because by wallet switching the music, which was the flow of money from the listener goes to the artists wallet, I thought well hang on a minute, I've got negative sides, can I get an advertiser in the same time slot in the reverse way. So I'm listening to this
show, and you've got a marketing message or an advert. And instead, that of the money switching to the advertisers, while it like a music artist, the flow of money changes to now we've split, you know, Adam and Dave, you could say we're gonna keep 50% and 50% goes to the listener. So now the listener goes, Okay, I'm getting paid for my time and attention from this advertiser. They listen to a little bit of it. And if they don't like it, they skip and the minute they skip, the advertiser
doesn't pay any more. But if the advertiser out, sorry, if the listener keeps listening to however long they want, to the advert, they get paid. And then the final part of that is in your user settings, you can set your sets per minute. So you might say, Well, if the advertiser is offering 100,000 a minute, play me the ad, but if they offered me 10 cents per minute, no, my time and value has much for so now. I tell you what, skip this ad, and that's it. Now, I hadn't worked out how it works.

I love that it's very app specific. How so? When just from a technical level and Dave chime in, to actually make this work, but by the way, I think that this that this offering should originate from the hosting companies, that's where a lot of the advertising comes from anyway, and so Okay, fee, and they understand the logistics of selling that and reporting back. It's okay baby, come here. Come here. Oh, how does it technically work with value time split? Where? Okay,
so Phoebe. So, my friend de says, I pay he expects to pay an average of 30 to $50 to acquire one customer on the subscription service, which is a lot of money nowadays. And I said, dude, dude, we should be able to do much much better at that how on a technical level do we do we switch things around where the payment is actually coming from the so the way I envision it, the payment comes from the I'm just gonna ignore her comes from
the the marketer. So the marketer has their budget, and there's a lot of parameters we got to put Phoebe okay, hey, getting your bed. The marketer has their budget, which also has to be finite. And everything has to be He switched around. So everybody's getting a piece. I liked the idea of skipping below a certain amount of SATs, how that skipping works is a huge issue, how does it mess up chapters, transcripts, etc. But just the pure value times, and I hope everyone takes this. I can
feel eyes rolling. I just want to stop, I can feel eyes rolling. But if we want to really help podcasting up, take it away from all these eight holes in this horrible industry. And bring it back to the ecosystem distributed without anyone being in charge is what I love about it. We don't need to have one central buyer one system, it can be your podcast host, you can go direct all of this can be beautifully run. So please stick with me. Can we even do that on a technical
level? Dave Jones? We can. Sorry? Yeah. I was just waiting to say yes.

We have. Yeah, you can definitely do that. I think on the marketing side. Like on the on the advertisers side? It makes more sense anyway, because you're only paying

for what's actually listened to for what's actually yes, yes.

You're not throwing money, you're not blindly throwing money and then waiting for a spreadsheet to say that maybe this thing got in front of people, you're not sure. I mean, like, it seems like you would spend less money to reach more people. And I think I mean, on the on the technical level, it doesn't seem difficult at all, now that we have the now that we have the source. And it was wallet in the TLV,

you know, in a way, fountain is already doing a version of this. Yeah, they are they're paying, they have the mechanism of paying SATs already kind of built in. I just don't know how much of it can really be controlled by the feed how much of is controlled purely by the feed. But both of you said yes. So I'm excited to hear that big. And I really want to say marketer, I don't want to say advertiser,

to Adam, when you put booster grand bowl together, right? You you record the show, and you just play the music tracks, you did the whole thing in one hit and then you go back, and you then do the valley time splits into whatever app you use.

Well, it's even better than that. Because the magician known as Steven Bell, Steven B has hooked up my playout system, which is m err list. So I put the I put all of my songs that I'm going to play into the split kit. I download all he then he zips him up, I download all the songs in a zip file, put that into my my bucket for play. And then regardless of what song I play, it'll automatically trigger that in the split kit and put the appropriate start time blank etc
into the split kit. And then all I have to do is go to sovereign feeds. I say import. And it does it does the chapters it does everything all in one go. But yes, you're right, I record and then it later is all put into the RSS feed.

And so an adverb or a marketing message is simply an mp3 file potentially, that you would play just as you would a music track. And then later on in Split kit, you will just have a reverse sat element

can do. Do you like that? And I don't like negative sides reverse. That's a bad like to come up with another name. Personally,

I'm happy for another name. But that's the only way I'm negative sounds so negative.

reversed, so I'm not sure and I'll take it one step further at that moment in time. So I can imagine, hey, here's this great product that I know you want this. Here's why you want it. I have it. I love it. I'm lying. What doesn't matter. And right now, you're you're being you're being compensated to listen to this, if you want it, tap on the chapter right now. I mean, can you imagine how marketers cream over this stuff? They really do they cream over this. And then it's anonymous.
Nope, at the top there, chap. That's different. I'm not quite sure if we can like to keep that anonymous. But it the whole thing is anonymous. You know, there's no attribution unless you want to give it and then as as you rightly said, now we can get into activity streams with you for more compensation, which complicates the technology even more, you could offer more information to the marketer.

Yes, and get paid for it. And I

am not against this. This is value for value for marketing

company. This is very, very platform specific. I don't because I don't I don't know that you can do this From,
you can't you obviously can't do this from the feed. Because if I'm a listener, like, if I'm a listener, and I'm listening to, okay, let's let's just say I'm listening to an to boost ground ball, and then booster green ball and I'm doing it on cast ematic, histogram ball, then all sudden, there's an ad that comes in for a subscription adult diapers, and then eyes and there will they signal, there's a signal in the feed, at a value time split that this, that this ad is going to pay, let's say
150 sets for anybody who listens to it. That's fine. My threshold maybe is 100 sets. But then I don't know how to signal to the advertiser that I've actually listened. Now now on the on a platform like true fans, or fountain, it's a difference is a different story, because the listening is happening in real time. And so you see, you can, you know, Sam can jump into and see that transaction as it's happening and do a payout. Yes. But on an off on an offline scenario like like cast Matic or
overcast or something like that. I don't, right, know that there's an unnameable way to make that happen.

That's a good point.

I think it's I mean, like, Is it doable? Obviously, I have a second phone.

I have a secondary mission here. It's also meant as a marketing tool for podcasting. 2.0 apps. Being that's that's like booster Graham ball is like, why are you not listening to this on a modern podcast app? What are you doing? What's wrong with you stop? You're missing out on half the fun.

So yes, I think we were like, we built the raw materials. There. And now, now, it's just a matter of if if a platform wants to build something out, like tree fans has, or fountain or anybody else wants to build that out? I mean, they can do it. And I think I don't think there's anything else we need to do, I guess? Well,

there may be like, a special remote item, which might be necessary a tag in in remote item that says, Okay, this is this is a marketing block. So, couple things need to happen. The, you know, whatever the the payment, direction flow is, and, and receiving app equals local user wallet, and it probably needs to be connected to a chapter so that the app can otherwise skip right next to the next chapter. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? So if it doesn't trigger your threshold,
then seamlessly go to the next chapter. bypassing the ADD?

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. And because all that can be defined, I mean, it could be defined in the value times split to

Well, that's where I think it belongs. Yeah, cuz

you're, I mean, this is a value transaction. So if you're, if you're, you're essentially doing a value time split, in the opposite direction. So you define that split. So then you don't have to worry about the chapters necessarily, you just go back to when the splits the split ends, everything just goes back to where it was. Yeah, cuz then, you know, and, you know, you know, where the splits going to end?

Yeah, you have the time marker, as well. So, if it's skipping, then it just skips forward to the next time marker?

Well, I think what you need is, is a speck of this, Sam, you know, then you're really good at building it all. And then saying, here it is, it works. But we need a spec that is understandable. So that, you know, we can we can really so that app devs can look at and say okay, I believe that the the by so to speak has to occur with the value time split, you have
to be able to signal to everybody at the same time. So I think that you know that that has to be something that is evident in the in the in the remote item, the value time split has to be evident. This is what's going to happen at this remote remote this this value time split. And then so the apps will know Oh, okay, if I want to handle that I need to do X, Y, Z.

Yeah, happy to do I mean, yeah. Again, the way I do things, you've seen it before I go and build stuff, throw it out in the world and then wait for everyone to look at it and then give me feedback. So but I'll happily put us back together as well. Now conversely,

if we don't do this, I also have a great example of what you can do for your advertising problems everybody. As I was listening to the DNX VR podcast because I always listen to sportsball podcast. And I heard the hosts do this, okay, we
have a really important ask for everyone which is going to help you but also help us as well. Apple podcasts did something at the beginning of this year, I think, where typically it will just automatically download your podcasts for you. And that helps us out helps you out by putting it in there. They stopped that. So now you have to go in and automatically or in turn on either automatic downloads or
download every podcast individually. If everyone watching on YouTube, listen to the podcast would go to Apple podcasts. And please turn on downloads for our podcasts. It really, really, really would help us out. It's easy to do just open up our show on Apple podcasts. top right hand corner, there's a little button. If you click it, it says podcasts have been paused, turn on automatic downloads hit that it'll help us out so much. I know Cody is the ultimate champ for everyone
hitting the like button on YouTube. If everyone would go and do that on podcast, it would help us a ton. Please. Okay, that was a great conversation. How

gross is that? How gross is that? Like it's

yours. But it's basically please please turn on downloads so that we get downloads candidate whether you listen or not. Well,

they're not easy. If you're everybody who's watching us on YouTube, please. Please commit fraud. Yeah, exactly. And inflate our numbers. Thank you. DWeb. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. It's gross. It's gross. Yeah. And that's what everyone's doing now. Yeah, it makes you turn on automatic downloads. Yeah, they're

gross. It's a good it's a nice alternative to actually doing the real thing. only takes about five minutes is

an alternative. Yes, it is.

I think the you know, I was thinking about because when I remember you who sat

back, Stephen be nice. SAS SATs back and love it. Okay.

So that your the thing you're doing with Apple Pay. kit, you know, there's there's this constant sort of, I don't know, drumbeat of we need to do something other than SATs. Something with with actual Fiat dollars in in, in the, you know, the that's? I've got a lot of I mean, that's a lot of thoughts on that. But really, I was thinking about thinking about it. And if you're doing if you're enabling Apple Pay. So do you take? Do you get the do you get a fee for that if you're
paying through Apple Pay? Or does that? Since you're using Apple Pay? Does it pass through with no fee?

No stripe tank 2.9% and 30 cents on every transaction?

Do you get airline miles?

Should they need to link it? You know, for transparency, we take one person, that's what we're doing. Right? We need to make some micro payment ourselves right for feature. So

Apple doesn't they don't hit you on that payment?

No, no, we're not even touching Apple, Apple's 30% x doesn't affect us at all. So this I couldn't believe when I looked at the stripe and it's legit. And you can go and read all the docs and it works. And it's like, wow, this is amazing. So you know, we've been cautious about it. So we're limiting it now at the moment to $10 or 10 pounds because, you know, we don't want to go mad. Sure, there's no limit. There is no limit, we've set an arbitrary limit right now. Now, what
you're gonna say I spoke to EVO Tara about audiobooks. And one of the things that we're working on with airhead as well is that audio books are a one off purchase potentially. So instead of streaming per chapter or episode, they might want to buy the book in totality. While in true fans, we show both the SAT value per episode and the fear conversion in your local currency below it. But as of Monday, because we've been working with EVO will show you the total value of that audio
book. And so now we've got integration to stripe, we can offer you pay with that if you've got that in your wallet, or pay with fear if you want to as well. So, again, we're going to experiment this is early days. But now we've got this mechanism of payment both ways. We're going to try seeing what we can do with it.

Okay, so that that answers some questions then. Let's see Nathan says stripe pays apple 2.15% out of their cut. Okay. That's a pretty small percentage. Okay, yeah. That was that was going to be method if there could be moved I'd bet this there could there could be basically a hiding of the hole under lying, not hiding in malicious ends, but a, a hiding
of the, of all the underlying plumbing of this. I mean, I'm thinking about strike with a K. And how they do things, essentially, you can, you can put money in, move it around, the money comes out. And if you don't want to, you never see the lightning aspect of that. You never see any of that any of the sort of guts. And that really could happen in value for value as well. You could say, Okay, I'm going to put money in here into my wallet into fans, or fountain or pod verse or
wherever it is. And then the it just shows up as an ad just as always denominated in dollars, then moving that around, like, then if you're paying out to the podcaster, it's in dollars main cast, thematic kind of already does this a little bit. I had

a thought on this. Okay. Which which plays right into this, I'm seeing as streaming sat seems to be much larger than is really discussed or accounted for because of booster grams and the nature of booster grams. The original, the original thought behind stream, I think it's if if the UI UX experience would change, where instead of how many sets do you want to stream per minute? I mean, I mean, I just I'm like, I just 200 sets a minute. That's kind of my standard is like, if
it's something I listen, I have less pleasure. That's 100 sets. But the original idea was podcast says, Oh, you're Oh, you're subscribed? Me? Do you want to send value for valley? Yes, how much per hour $1. And then under the hood, it does all those calculations for you, it takes care of all that it may have to recalc on an hourly basis, or whatever, based upon bitcoin price. But I've always felt that that is something that might be kind of the easy side or the remote control. You know,
what I mean? Like the big buttons, versus the smaller buttons and really help people to say, what is the show worth to you? Well, it's it's an hourly basis is simple. Oh, it's five bucks an hour to me, okay, boom, will take care of the rest. And then you can watch it in SAS, you can watch it because you know, a certain point. You know, Satoshis, I don't even know if you can calculate that low amount on $1. Denominator.

Yeah, if I mean, if you're doing that, then you're in sec, I don't know, it seems like it kind of simplifies things. But without having to, because we know you can't really move dollars in that way. It's too clumsy is too costly, you can't you just dial the dollar, the banking system doesn't move money like that. That's that's just not the way it worked. You may have one bank that has something special setup, or even a few networks, but it's not universal. You can't go You
can't go from here to the UK in that fashion. So if you had, but you can with lightning. And it just seems like it doesn't necessarily have to be it just doesn't have to be now no strike. And this gets into the weeds because strike is using stable coins and that kind of thing to to facilitate this. But I don't know if I feel like there's a there's an opportunity to sort of not really not drive people into having to know what Bitcoin necessarily is. Yeah, it's a big turnoff. It is and
in? I mean, honestly, do we know what it mean? If you think about what's happening in the Fiat world with with with government currencies? I mean, some of that is that's backed by various different things. Anyway, some of that some of those things, you know, that those are the bank, the banking system runs on Treasury bonds and that sort of thing. Magic, it's magic and magic, magic, rubber and magic. Yes. And so, I don't know, I'm just kind of thinking out loud, because Todd mentioned it at the
end of Numidia show. And it kind of always comes up. Now, I just wonder if there's a way to know because I so in my cast thematic, in my experience, my daily driver in when I go to deposit some some, some sets in there to boost podcasts. It's always in dollars, except at the point when I have to load it. And then I have to think about 50 that, you know, 50,000 SATs, I'm going to put 100,000 SATs. Well, how much am I going to
load this up with? And then I don't know it just seems like it may be if you're doing Get with Apple Pay or Google Pay, or something like that. You wouldn't even have to do that part. The

genesis of this is a bit of the Bitcoin Max ethos when we first started this, there was like, wow, yeah, everyone's got to live in a Bitcoin standard, you got to be thinking in Satoshis? I do, I literally do. And the way I do it is this house would have cost me 60 Bitcoin five years ago, and now it would only be for Bitcoin. So I do think in those terms, but I'm in 100% agreement that if, if we can, if we have an Option, Escape mode, it would bring a lot more people in, and
particularly this genius, genius hack that Sam has invented. I mean, the so my wife and I have a podcast, and it's called currying the keeper. And the people who listen the most are from our church, and they love listening to it, and every single Sunday, and this, they pull out the phone, can you help me? I'm trying to figure out how to get these Satoshis into this? And is this okay? You know, I'm a little worried about all these questions. Who are the who's Moonpig? Who are these people?
They, they get through it, a lot of them really get through it. But man, if I could just say just to press that button for Apple Pay or your or your Google Pay? They would they would be all over it. Yeah,

I mean, what I'm trying to even get to is why they just say, Look, I just want to put 10 pound recurring every month into my wallet, we will deal with the SAP payments from that, we will do that.

Can you do that with Apple Pay, you can set them up on a recurring,

recurring, we are implementing that. Beautiful, beautiful this is. So this one we're implementing is a payment out, by the

way didn't want to insinuate the church people are dumb. But it's older people.

This is the other issue that, you know, I have no problem with any of this. I'm experienced with Bitcoin and that kind of thing from a long way back. So I was going to pay my and did pay my brother in law for doing my taxes this year. I'll pay I was gonna pay him in, in Bitcoin, just because he didn't have any. And then he was like, Yes, he did. You know, he doesn't usually how

come? We didn't? How come? We didn't take any bitcoin from the podcast index k one. Is this true? Dude, I have to write it. I have to write a check to him. That's no good.

Yeah, it was like, Hey, he doesn't usually charge me at all to do my taxes. And he's just that kind of guy. But I was like, Look, I've got to pay you something. I mean, this things are getting more complicated. And I was like, let just let me give you a couple 100 bucks a bit. Just for fun. And he was like, Yeah, okay, listen, this sounds fun. And so I said, so I got him to sign up for Cash App. He verified
himself went through that whole thing. And just because of our ad sin in the past Bitcoin to my kids through cash app, and it was pretty simple. And I didn't have to get into full full with them having some sort of dedicated wallet. And so he says, he said, now he gives me his cash app handle. And then I say, okay, 200 bucks worth of worth of bitcoin. I'm gonna send and I and I said, here send this to them. Well, they rejected it. I was like, wait, what? They rejected the transaction. This
is weird. I mean, I've been I've never had a problem with this before. And as like Did did you verify your case? Uh, yeah. Like showed him a picture of my job. And I was just

because he's a new they thought it was fraud. Yeah,

and so I open up a customer service request. And I'm like, Hey, I just tried to send some bitcoin and my brother in law and rejected it and they said, We cannot help you with this. With this, this case is closed. And I was like, Okay, I was like, well, can can you give me any indication as to why they said I'm sorry, we can't give you any more information this case is closed is there anything else we can help you with? They will refute would not tell me why it was rejected. Anything
like that? And I was like, You know what? This sucks. So we switched over to strike. And I sent him and it worked fine. But this is the problem is that there's if you're dealing in the world of Bitcoin, this stuff is not always it just doesn't It doesn't just work. There's stuff like this that gets rejected all the time. Now this happens in the Fiat world to mean things get rejected. We know PayPal does weird things that not this doesn't always go smooth there either. But when you're in the
Bitcoin world, it just seems unnecessarily convoluted. And, and I think I just think there's a real opportunity here for that to change.

Yeah, I'm with you.

Because you, because, I mean, it was it was frustrating. The trips are trying to get through that. And if you have somebody who you're trying to guide through that process as a podcast listener and they hit a wall like that, they're just done. I mean, like, I don't have time for this. Life's busy. You know that it's just, yeah, no, no, just there's something to think about.

Sam, hello, hello. How many wines have you had?

In teetotal? Since LA? So? What's wrong with you? Oh, fat boy, Sam over here. I've been told to lose.

Fat Boy Slim brother. Nice. Yep. Okay, version. Do you want to talk? activity streams?

Yeah, let's do that. I'd also if we get time likes talking about the medium tag?

Well, let's do it. Let's do medium to medium first, let's

do medium that said on my notes. Anyway, that's a

broad, it's a broader, and I have something for that, too. It's broader, medium tag.

Okay. So I think the medium tag is a real opportunity for all of the podcasting, Tito apps and hosts to extend beyond just podcasting. Agree. And we've seen Spotify announced courses, and audio books and all sorts of things, right. And I feel we're not taking advantage of the technology that we've already invented. So on true fans, as an example, we already support all the current mediums. And I've been working in the
background with Michael wave leg. And I've been talking to Patrick at this, def topia, and I want to talk to Davi Das, and Oscar and everyone else. So tonight, we literally did it, we created a brand new music category list. wavelike started it, and it's very extensive. And I want to share that out. And what we do is when we see medium equals music, we switch the category list from the Apple category list to the wavelet category list. Now wavelength is now allowing all of their
artists to self define their genre. And so what that's good for us is that we are now seeing only a couple of that we've started tonight, but we're seeing now a couple of artists are now saying I'm r&b and rock and soul or whatever. Of course, they're all clickable. So now you can go and get discovery on the categories. So we're bypassing the apple category list, which isn't ever going to be extended, and creating a specific music category lesson that's just using music equal
medium equals music. And then this week, I spoke to airhead and to EVO about audiobooks, so we have name equals audiobooks. And, you know, we have episodic and serial, so that all works in the process. And so we did a test and we've now got audiobooks from EVO in true fans and Airheads got a massive library of them as well. And what happened was we created a publisher feed for books so it's live, you can go in and look at
it, it's already on there in true fans. And so we've been able to use the medium tag to extend to courses with POD home Barry is doing it is supporting that medium equals courses. We've got music, we're Davi das and wavelike and dystopias that we are beginning to see if the hosts would support the medium tag beyond just podcast as a default, that we could extend as a group to much more quicker, but they're not doing it for the

for the D MU people who are very dear to me, will wave Lake if they are maintaining the the tag repository? Will they allow other other music hosts to also add to that list? Yes.

And they don't want to retain the list. They've got it on a GitHub right now. Good. And they want to share that out. And I think where it lives, it could be on the PSP. It could be anywhere right? Yeah, it's not owned by wave lake. They are well aware of that. But they they've done a really good job of creating an extensive list. I think that's a good starting point. So yeah.

Excellent. I love it. I think it's a great idea.

So if you have Okay, so this is a good discussion that there was this idea of having a different list of categories or visit a different genre category keyword list for for each medium, and this fits right into that because they really don't, they don't cross pollinate at all in any meaningful way. A music a music genres are really not going to touch audio books at all. Pierre so so it makes sense to have different repositories

from different mediums Types. Yeah,

and these are countries like, as we discussed on the GitHub, there's like controlled, you know, what they call controlled vocabularies, where you say, well, here's, here's the things that are the most common things that you start with. So if as you're searching to add a tag, autocomplete thing to help you autocomplete Yeah, and then as you and if it's if you just if the thing you're doing is truly unique and doesn't fit into a pre existing tag, you just add
that and it's fine. But like I do, I do think there's, there's some, I don't know whether that needs to be defined somewhere. Or if that's purely just a per platform thing, where the platform is just No, I mean, we can document it and say, Okay, for the, if the medium equals Music,

start with this this already, Dave, we have a taxonomy for the person tag right. beyond what we did, it was created by a third party group. And when you add the person tag, you look at that taxonomy, as a defined list. That list is now static, and it needs to be updated. But fundamentally, that's what we work off. And we have the same one with Apple categories. It's a defined list, and we will work
off it. So I think we as a group can then say, Okay, well for the extended categories for audio books, and music, and film and courses. And whatever else we want to add, we know we want, if you want me to talk about events, as well, but the whole thing can have a very simple and it's easy to do, because all you do is look in the feed for medium equals and then you pull in the category for it. Now, a lot of people want free form. And that's fine, you've got a key word listing within the RSS
feed. And that can be user generated by the No, if you want to enhance or add to that defined category lists as a individual podcast creator, we'll put them in the keyword. And that's fine, we will look at the keyword for additional listings that you want to be known for.

Yeah, and I think that can just be thinking about where to put it in the namespace definition, it could just be in the medium tag, a reference to where those two those lists. Say, here's here's the list for this, for this tag, start with this list for this text, em or for this medium, start with this list, blah, blah, blah. And then where the lists are the definition of the way the listings work, could be some,
you know, that that would live somewhere else. So like, the tags, the TAT, the the categories tag, can define the behavior of, of the categories and the way they're defined in the feed. And then the medium tag defines which category lists go with each medium, to anything. I think that all makes sense. I'm looking at you're looking at true fans at the audio books. I'm looking at Seventh Son Book Three destruction, and click

on click on that. And then you'll see just below the title in the next page, you'll see published by Scible. Scribble. Scribble. Yes, yeah, click on scribble. That is an audio book publisher page. So it's a publisher feed for scribble based on the audio books that they have. So that was a test we did with Evo.

Yeah. And I see Evos here as the person tag is the booking coordinator. Yeah, we just did is a very quickly. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. So like, so here's the question, though. The biggest gripe about audiobooks in podcast apps is the order of the episodes. Right now see that the order is, is being chronological, new to old? Yeah,

yeah. So we know that's a bug. And we're fixing that. So although in the RSS feed, we correctly read cereal, rather than episodic. What we did was we didn't change the UI, because we haven't had a reason to up until now. So we are changing it to be based on the series and episode numbers rather than the date chronology, which is what we've done in the past. And

are you going to see that in here's, like you said, this is where there's, there's this is where it's fertile soil as a greenfield because and getting a good looking UI where it feels like you're in an audio book app. Is is that's a that's a game changer. As soon as you have that it feels good people start like I listened to tons of audiobooks like the last couple of weeks, I've listened have completed probably for
audiobooks. My my heavy audible user, and if I had been if I had a killer app for audiobooks for podcasting, a podcast based audio book medium, I would be a heavy user of that, but it's got to feel like the feel is everything. It's got to feel right I agree with the WaveLight guys in this, because they were really sensitive to the feel of the app and making sure that it was a good experience, it felt that make sure you felt like that the podcast app felt like a music app. And that that's a big
deal. It's a bigger deal than we, then we may think, because then you go to use it. And it can become frustrating because you don't know how to get everything in the right order. And you shouldn't have to kind of tinker around with it and get to get it to play right, it should just be it should just be right from the beginning. You know,

on the medium tag front, I have a remark and a suggestion and business for anybody who wants to do it. I was reading a post which showed up on podcast index dot social from polymesh. I'm not sure who that is. Polly mash wrote a post is a no equipment podcast feasible with synthetic voice technology. And it was a whole thing about I should just be able to type it in and the podcast and I don't need to bring any gear don't need to do anything. And it'll just create
this podcast. And I can do it from anywhere. I can just kind of script it out and it'll work and it'll be beautiful. And then the bottom was like, I know, a lot of diehards will hate this. And I thought to myself, whoa, this is actually the reverse. What if medium equals blog was used for web blogs. And that your app would it now this is assuming that one day this magical AI technology will really work and you'll have a
voice that will sound so natural, it'll trick me. But that your podcast app can subscribe to a blog, or a sub stack may even be more appropriate just to start with. And in the morning, I said that on purpose, you'll get a new podcast and it will be a blog or just keep a sub stack on RSS that is then read to you by your podcast app in a voice that is
comfortable to you the way you like the pacing. You could set the format read this energetically read this with a doom voice, etc, etc. And I just wanted to throw that out there for those interested in AI. If that actually gets to be something at some point, I think that would work. And subsequently, I thought to myself, I should probably start a business where I pay people these millions of podcasters to read popular posts from people for a fee, which could be value
for value. I asked I asked her I said hey, what do you read the more conservative Treehouse was one answer, which is a very, you know, political right wing. You could also say, Politico, I mean, it doesn't matter, right wing, left wing, if you got that in the morning, and you could just listen to it with a voice. A comfortable voice read that to you. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'd love that. So I'm just throwing that out as a business idea.

Have a look at startups daily, I met the guy, Podcast Movement in LA. And he's basically it's not quite the blog, or substack. But he's taking a article, and he's turning that article into an AI voice, and then putting out a 15 minute daily show.

Obviously, the thing I don't like about that, though, is that it's very difficult to satisfy everybody. If I have control over the voice in my app. Now you're talking like I want a woman to read this I want I want it to be this, this pacing I want et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think AI will actually get there where people like it that much. I can't stand AI voice books. I've tried those like I can't it's just it's too robotic.

Anyway, use. I have used it though. Like once. I didn't think I ever would. But I was I was in the gym. And I was there was this long article, gosh, this this article was like 6000 words long article that I was trying to get through. And I just read I really wanted to get through this thing and I'll and I did the like read it to me function on the iPhone and just lit and I knew it was gonna get stuff wrong. And he was gonna mispronounce stuff. And I was like, you know, it's it got more
important and, and it was fine. I mean, it was it was mostly okay. You know, yes, it gets stuff wrong. But, but he was able to figure it out, you know, and it worked for me. Here's,

here's the two thoughts about that. So if you could control the voice yourself. And I believe it would belong in medium equals blog. A medium was, you know, type mp3 or whatever. So that, you know, so you know it's an mp3. Well, two things. One, we said, I said the same thing about mp3, ah, it's such a degradation of quality. No one will listen to music like this. It's horrible. It's sucks if the encoding is bad, no one cared. Everybody know, we're so used to
listening. I mean, I do this, this, this podcast and 96 kilobits per second is low. No one really cared, it didn't matter, everyone you know, and they've tried all the high, the high end, high quality, those things really don't work out that well, that's really for people who have, you know, people with earbuds generally don't care about the mp3 quality. The second thing I like about this is if it could be in the podcast app. And this is a way for writers, blog writers,
Article writers to participate in value for value. That I think would be the big the big revolution. Because everybody wants to get paid for their for their blog work. Well, I think that there's a lot of people, but just my my little bit of market research, most people would be very willing to listen to a blog post or an article instead of read it.

Do you? Do you have any plans to support the medium equals blog? On truth?

I think you've seen it already. Dave, when you go to our feedback, and you can see the blog, we've we've done zaps. We've done, boost comments, and then you can pay, you get paid every time you give us a bug report or a feedback or a suggestion. And in the blog, we've actually just put comments there and with with payment, but when it's not been designed exactly to what you're talking about, we didn't have that plan. But I don't see any reason why. Because it's RSS why you
couldn't do it in the same way. But no, we haven't done it specifically.

Because I mean, I can I would love to have you know, that's it's it's funny this, this is actually a bigger deal than I thought when I first heard you talking about it, because I would love to have that. Have my podcast app be my RSS reader? Yes.

Well, that's it's exactly the same thing. I would, I would use it all day long. And I think I could probably get used to a crappy voice or a synthetic voice the same way I got used to NP threes. Are you kidding me? I would love and people. I mean reading I hate to say it but you know, reading is kind of less of a thing these days. And, and listening. And by the way, you can still have the transcript running along all kinds of good stuff like that. I really think that it would take
off. I mean, I know. I know people's Oh yeah. If I could just listen to this article that comes out every day or sometimes twice a day, when I'm doing my makeup, not saying it's teen on or anything. You know that would that would work and value for value. Sure. Happy to compensate that way.

So we we know publisher feeds take a news feed from James and we filter it by the name of the publisher. So we take an RSS feed from pod News Daily. And if you're on one Drees publisher feed, we will show you a tab which has news related to wandering so that it's not an RSS reader Dave, but it is a filtered RSS feed based on the name of the publisher.

That's interesting. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think I think that just it just feels like it feels like a greenfield to me. Yeah. You know, because it, they they're just not, they're just not that much different. If you think about it, I mean, it's content in well, everything is some so I think it's part of partly that. That thing of raw that Rob and Todd talked about, were they ever raised like everybody is
talking about video. When everybody in an industry in an ad supported industry is talking about one thing it usually means you probably want to go the other way.

The Adam curry rule of technology.

Yeah. So if everybody's talking about video, maybe the actual correct thing to do is even less Yeah, even less media, you know, friend, even even like non non multimedia go to text. I

mean, Apple Apple. I'm sure Google has same thing. But Apple has all kinds of voice since its synthesis on board, you can tie into those libraries.

Yeah, and like I said, it was it was a it was a fun experience. And I chose the voice I wanted and and like I said it was fine. It was fine. And I'm sure the Google version of that's the same

it was fine and And it's still a podcast. It's just an art.

I mean, like these are, I mean, they're just posts and articles. They're not. I mean, you're not expecting, I guess, you it's different than

the bar is low, the quality of the expectation is low. Yeah. Because

you're half, you know, you're rushing to get through that thing anyway.

And how about this, see, once we get there, if we ever do, I will pay extra to have Adam curry read this to me, though, I will pay and you're just like, just like we had the that was, it was a big thing back in the day where you could change the voice on your GPS navigation, or celebrity voices. That could be an extra feature. I'm available, by the way.

Cuz speak to me age,

value for value. It all fits in the I would just love to get writers into this value ecosystem. And I appreciate what you're doing Sam with, with the zaps and the comment boost and everything. But this is such a non brainer. And if if AI really is so good, I mean, my goodness, James, every five episodes of pod news weekly review. He's like, Oh, Bob, and he plays a synthesized voice. And says, well, it still sucks. But you know, it's out there. Clearly, people are doing
it. But they're doing it the wrong way around. There's more content in the written word than you could ever imagine just waiting to be synthesized and delivered to podcast apps.

And honestly, the best. I'm gonna bro I'm gonna broad brush this, you know, but the best content right now? Probably is written. Sure. I mean, there's a there's a lot of people that are writing a lot. And I'm not sure why. As far as like a renaissance of that, but there's a lot of a lot of people writing that there's a lot of good content out there that if that I find that I'm I miss if I just get sucked fully into podcast world.

But you can also multitask you know, when when it's being read to you. I mean, how often the only my wife and I read stuff to each other all the time in the morning. There's Oh, let me read this to you.

Yeah, and the one thing that Tybee does that I think is cool is that he pays a guy to read to read his posts. Yeah. And he has a feed an RSS feed of that. Yeah, it's like here, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write my stuff. And then there's going to be a narrator that narrates each post, and they usually come out. The posts come out a couple, sometimes a week or two
after the original post piece was written. But I find that wonderful because I now I don't have to there it is read the stuff to hit some new mailbox.

Yeah, you just confirmed it. I

just wait for it. I just wait for the podcast version. And then I have a specific playlist just for that feed. And when I get ready to hear those headlines and read and have those articles written to me read to me. I just hit that play list. And I start and I just start at the top and go down it's a it's an idea. It's a good idea. It's a good idea. Like we need more of those more ideas.

Yeah, should we take a little break play some music? I'd

love it. If Sam choose this

to know Sam didn't do that. I'm sorry. I didn't ask you. I'm sorry. At least I got your wallet. I got that part. Right. Well this is it was fortuitous. As I'm like oh we should play a song and before I even thought of asking Sam. I went to the split kit and saw right at the top of brand new track from the door falls. Well, you know me I have a weakness
for the door foals. They are part without the door folds there probably would not be a burgeoning value for value music value verse because they put out so much content they do their own podcast into the value verse and I'd like everybody to boost away for this song remember to tell the artists where you heard it. Put it right there and your booster Graham telling you heard on podcasting 2.0 It's their brand new one. And it is titled Love is a war the door full so podcasting 2.0 I got myself
in two years ago let me add you to you promise me I promise. Is this fighting for You're seeking it was Manson you set out to be the owner is this logo is to the slogan was soldiers in a dangerous this is True a gamma selfie is good money you promise me a promise

is worth fighting for lovers award that door falls on podcasting 2.0 Let's be honest. Who went to go to the bathroom? Oh,

I'm much lighter now. Oh, no.

Turn the speakers on everybody. Yeah. All right. Great song though. Yeah, I'd really opens up I'd like it. They got some screaming guitars in their door fools, man, those guys are great. We appreciate them in the valley verse.

I want to talk briefly just run through this real quick about the couple of issues I'm having to work on on the API. The API, there's a just finished up a new endpoint for transistor. And they're working on a 2.0 feature over there that they're going to release. And I had promised John Buddha that I would get him some an endpoint. And that's done now. So I've got a couple of things to go back and fix in the API has been neglected for a couple of months. And one of them is this
stupid bug. The it's, it's a bug with the max parameter in the episodes in point. So if you tell it if you give it a max, so the way it's supposed to work is you asked for episodes by podcast ID. And you hand it a podcast ID and you say I want the episodes and then say max equals 100. So you get back 100 episodes. Oh, this

one? Yeah, we kept getting the wrong amount of episodes back. Idea. So minor bug.

It's a big bug. And so if it's like we, Steven B, God bless him, figure it out, somehow had this. It became really ridiculous to the point where he figured out if he puts in the magic number 2750 for the max parameter. Did that gives him what he wants?

Oh, sounds like a math issue somewhere.

This is now I know what the I know what the issue is. And the issue is that if you there has to be some sort of range, okay, because there's So many episodes. In the episodes table, there's 120. Well, there's more than that now, there's probably pushing 140 million records in the episodes table. And if you're pulling in, if you're doing a table join it at some point, if you don't range the request, with, with some sort of like, low lower bound, MySQL really does not
like that, and it will slow, it will get slow. In the end, it's believed me the tables are properly indexed, it's nothing like that. This is not an index issue. This is just some sort of issue where if you don't, if I don't put some sort of a lower bound on the range, it just, it just gets slow. And we're
talking about it. So if I just say an unbounded, like an unbounded range, and just say everything, and just show me the episodes from this podcast ID on this table, but also join these other seven tables, you'll end up with a request with an API call that doesn't return for 12 seconds. And that's just unacceptable. You can't I can't have that. That's an outrage. It's, it's outrageous. And so it was not my fix for that has
always been to, to bound it with a time parameter. So I'll put on there, like two years, just just some arbitrary number where it's not having to worry, it's not having to do to look at the entire index, the entire table of episodes table in order to find this, these values. And that that speeds it up, that speeds it up significantly. But the problem is, you end up with
these weird things. Because if you have a podcast that's been going for 10 years, well then, and you ask for or some arbitrary, there's a what this ends up being a bug with is this dance between a time bound. And the actual number of episodes you want, creates these bizarre results that don't make any sense. But most of the time, it's okay, but some nonce non inconsequential amount of time. It's bizarre and weird, and it's stupid. So and I don't know what 2750 has to do with anything,
that's a new one. Okay, that's that I don't know what that is. So I'm gonna have to refactor. The reason this has taken so long to fix is I'm gonna have to go back and refactor. The low level, this is a this is a function that goes back to literally August of 2020 27.

Like 50 is an angel number,

an angel number, what does that mean?

I never heard of an angel number. No. Angel numbers, a potent symbol of spiritual awakening enlightenment.

Well, it works. And I agree with this definition of the 2750 is accurate. This goes back this I mean, this code was written in August of 2020. Like in the run up before before we even launched podcast index.org. So it was like, basically one month of converting freedom controller into podcast index API. And it's always been gross, it's always been an ugly piece of code. So I'm going to have to go back and refactor that, but let you know, this function is touched by widely all throughout
the API. So I cannot just change this thing lightly. It has to be extensively tested before I replace it. So that's going to be the issue. I'm gonna have to set up a dev environment locally, import the full database. So this is going to take some time to fix. But I but I am going to fix it. And it does need to be fixed and it will be fixed. So you demand that's yeah, you demand. Not? Not really. I mean, the stupid
bugs. It was It wasn't a bug. It was like one of those things where, you know, I just needed a quick and dirty fix for it at the moment. And the quick and dirty fixes are always the one that the ones that last for five years.

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah.

So anyway, that'll that'll be fixed. The other the other issue is we're getting a lot more traffic these days. And I'm going to have to do some stuff to take some pressure off the database itself. It's not really of is it can handle it. It's just running hot. So real quick Another side effect of of this of the podcast is index API being being built very fast, is that there's too much stuff hitting the database. And I
don't want to go into what all that is. But there's a lot of stuff that could be cached, that doesn't need to be being pulled from the database every single request, right? So I'll be, I'm going to be rolling a Redis instance, actually, I probably won't do Redis, I'm probably just going to write something custom. And, and load that in in memory, it just seems it just needs to be a simple key value store. Just a hash table lookup. And I've already got that for the GU ID for the GU ID lookup
code. So I'm just going to take that rust code and pull it over and repurpose it for this for this tool. And then it can run on a $5 Linode. And in where it'll, it'll take a lot of pressure off the database. So that's another thing that's going to be has a lot of API work in the next couple months.

Maybe, Sam, instead of talking specifically about activity streams, you've also been looking at podcast index social, where does it seem to you that people are most excited about into? Because obviously we need to integrate? Yep. Activity pub in order to do the streams? Have? Do you have a feel on what people are looking at? Is it comments is it follows is anything that you've seen anyone look at specifically?

I don't think Well, I think all the excitement is around what Dave and Steve did with with the bridge. I think that's a great sort of intro for everybody to go, Oh, I didn't realize you could do this. So I think I described it on pot newsweeklies saying that the metaphor we all need to get our heads around is that activity Pub is an inbox outbox, back end
messaging system more than a social network. And what we're trying to do, or at least I think we're trying to do is get a signal out of the apps into the social networks that we have or master. But What's lovely about the social interact tag is not limited by activity pub, actually, we could do it to LinkedIn, Twitter, we could do it to anywhere, right. It's just I think the best place to start is with activity pub. And I think what Dave's doing is allowing people to follow the
verb. So that's the the activity stream, verb follow. And then when they do that, Dave's outbox gets a notification that some episodes been updated. And he then relays that message to the person's inbox to say, yep, that podcast has been updated. There you go. metaphor is useful.

So, Sam, how, how, at a low level how and integrated with activity Pub is true fans if I if I sent you a custom action or verb like, would you? Is that something you could accept?

We don't like your element yet, Dave. So we don't know we're building it. But we don't have it. Do we have the outbox element. So we have every profile, we have a set of activity verbs. And what I want to do is publish those so that we can all agree on them. But that, that would be like Dave, played pod news weekly, and then the attributes to that we can add it as an extension, such as the amount of value you actually
gave, or the percentage of time you completed. So time listened percent completed and value paid are three metrics I want to add. And that could then be shared from your account. And again, whichever app eventually to your activity pub client, and then anyone who follows you on that activity pub client is then going oh, wow, Dave, I didn't know that. Okay, you've boosted Oh, I must go and see what that episode is about, or whatever it
may be. Now, the inbox element is this social interact tag. So for example, if you if Adam or you have given a activity pub endpoint as your social interact tag, and we all then are placing our comments within there. Now, if it's come from fountain or pod verse into that same activity pub note, and I've got one coming out from true fans, I need to listen to the other apps in that social interact tag and then bring that into the user's inbox. The inbox happens to be the episode this time, so it's
not an individual. And so that's how you can aggregate now that could be the same for ratings. But we can extend that you know, Adam follows a podcast in Fountain new follow podcasts in podcast, we should still be able to know that within truth and therefore, you don't have to come and redo that follow when you come into our app as well. Lots of things we can do. I think step one right now is I think, my Okay, let me step
back. I think all of us as apps, podcasting, tutor apps have to become eventually full activity pub clients might now have to be part of the Fetty verse. I think Adam mentioned that a couple of weeks back when he said, you know, we probably need to have it in true fans case, you know, use that at true fans.fm as a activity pub client, just, I am Sam Sethi at podcast index dot social. So I think that's where we have to go again, I'm still treading lightly. So we've got an outbox element that all
works. We know that works. We have tested internally pushing that out to someone's inbox in their activity pub client. Great. And with a link back into true fans, so that, you know, if it's an episode you've played, and you want to go and see who else has done that, the inbox elements, the second part will work on which is listening to the social interact tag and for verbs. So, again, it's baby steps, but I think that's the way we're going.

So if you so in your world, in the true fans world, you really have multiple actors. You have the you have the user and the podcast episode. Okay, and then you have sort of do I have an out in my much I'm logged into true fans right now. Do I have an outbox?

Yes. So if you go to your profile on the you click on the activity tab.

Okay. Yes, yeah.

That is your outbox. Okay. So that's all the activities you've done. Within true fans, whether you've played suggested followed, boosted, whatever you've done, you can see all the verbs in the drop down. There's a list of all the verbs there. So

is it simply an outbox, or is it also an active Push? Push?

No, we haven't done the push, pull is going to come. Okay. Okay.

So that so in the future, okay, in the future, I could follow myself on true fans from a mastodon account. And then or from another activity pub client, and then I can get notifications of of my outbox activity as pushes to the shared inbox, right? That's fine.

And if I go to your user settings and scroll down to privacy, you'll see that we've already said, hide all my activity, or just make my these verbs public. Right. That was the next step we worked on the step after is what you're asking is, Can I now publish those automatically? Or when we have no idea how we're going to do it? Totally? Can I publish those activities to my activity pub inbox? And the answer is yes.
And that's what we're going to work on. You'll see that next week, I'll send you both think that's why because I would

love I would love to add, you know, somehow aggregate this because the thing that we don't have, in every, every directory is going to have the same issue. We we may, you know, people may act, the other directories of podcast directories may act like they have some top secret information in a way that nobody else does. But that's not true. We don't we have the same problem that everybody else does is we don't have first party data. So we don't know what we don't know
how many. How many people follow a podcast, we don't know how many people we don't know, download numbers, we don't know, we don't know anything. So we really are guessing at popularity of things. To make some intelligent decisions. We're guessing at it based on just sort of like these weird inferences about how many requests to the API, we're
getting in that kind of thing. But if I could, if I had a way to subscribe to, you know, a hose of of the of it activity pub information coming through about plays and that kind of thing. Man, that would be valuable.

Yeah, for a lot of people.

Yeah. So the way that we've done it is if you are a creative, the owner of the podcast, right, or a music artist, you go into your creators admin dashboard, and we will show you all the activity streams from the people who are fans of your music or fans of your podcast. And that's an aggregated activity stream, you can drill down to that's the data you want, which is per podcast, you don't want the individual data, per se. You might do but you would then have
to do the aggregation yourself, right? Whereas what we're giving the creators is that aggregated view of their podcasts or music app or book eventually, and that's the data that's valuable because then it tells them how long did Dave listen to the show? What how much did he pay wind Did he drop off? And then, you know, we've got concepts of leaderboards and gamification.
And the reason we have that is because then you want to know who's the superfan who's listened to his show the most, who's paid the most, or all these different aspects then come out, but we can't build those elements until we've done the basic building blocks, which is what we're still working on.

That enables the followers. You know, the, the followers in endpoint activity pub, like in a traditional activity pub in point has an inbox and outbox featured? I think one of the and one of them, I think, is called followers. So you can put probe that as well, I mean, like that, that opens up a whole lot of stuff. That is, that is super valuable. And I think that like, it also helps to cross pollinate between podcast apps completely in a way that's like a it's just
not happening right now. And it doesn't have to it's not an it's not a competition. Issue. Really. I mean, I think it really is a rising tide lifts all boats scenario, the more these apps, you know, if I'm doing something in true fans, and then found in our pod verse shows that activity, I don't see that any different because I'm hopping back and forth between apps. I don't see that any different as I would cross out comments. Dice is just saying Chad

F posted just now on to Mastodon that somehow Oscar's showing all of the boosts from true fans and from other apps coming into fountain tonight. Right? So I assume you're listening to any any. I'm guessing. He's listening on the OB dashboard, for example, for any payments, and then he's aggregating it on to the episode for tonight show. So again, that sounds really cool. But I think we can do it. Instead of
scraping all the dashboards and doing all that stuff. I think we can do it, as you described Dave, with an open starts, where we all have a set of agreed verbs. And then when we publish those verbs, and those verbs can be listened to. It is like a
reverse pumping. I don't think that's the right word. But it's apps, other apps listening to other apps for signals of activity from those apps, and then aggregating them around an episode or a podcast or a user, whichever the object is, or the person actor.

I'm very excited by this. I really am excited.

Yeah, this, this is a must step aside

into your excitement. If I want to get any of your excitement on me. Yes.

I'm in I'm in sync mode.

I know. I know, you. I know you, honey, I know how you think.

Yeah, this is a, this is a big deal. Because if you have Yeah, this is the share. This is the sharing of this is the sharing of data across apps. And this is hard. You know, we talked about this a little bit, Alex jumped in. And we're kind of hashing some of this out about pod ping and how some of these activities go across the wire. And piping insignia specifically, I mean, these are things that they're not easy. But, but they, I don't want to shy away from them, just
because they're not easy. We're, you know, we're, we're gonna think about them. And if we can start simple, then maybe, maybe a better solution presents itself down the line. If you start, you know, we start more simply by something like, the activities that you define them into fans play, you know, Dave became a fan of, you know, or like a follow or a day followed
this podcast, Dave boosted this podcast. And like you said, it's already been, it's already been distributed, we can already see the boosts coming out of fountain this is not, this is not anything that's, that's problematic. Now,

it's just adding structured data to it. So the way I think about it is the activity stream is a user generated RSS feed of what they've done, right? And that activity stream, then becomes something that they can share. Now, I said it wrongly a couple of months ago when I said, Oh, why wouldn't the podcast index aggregate the activity stream
centrally? That was totally wrong? Because actually a decentralized system like activity, pub doesn't need a central database, or what I was trying to think of at the time was, could I could all the apps send it like the host send you the RSS and you aggregate it in the podcast index, and then poorer and pushes it down? And I was thinking that way, and I'm wrong. But that's how I was thinking. All the apps actually would send user generated feeds up to the podcast index, and
then other app We'd listen to a central repository. But actually with activity pub being decentralized and relayed, we don't have to do it that way. So yeah, yeah, that was how I was thinking originally.

And I'm, I'm overdue for a, for a blog post about this so that I can just give app developers a little bit of a primer on how on how the basic endpoint structures work, because it's really, activity Pub is really not that hard. It's pretty simple. And I think a lot of people have been scared of it, because it seems like because it's, it's not well
documented. So I do need to just write something about this so that people see how there's, you can get activity pub servers out there, that you can find them on GitHub, that are like that are like 1500 lines of PHP. It's It's like nothing man there is so simplistic, because really, all it is, is just it's a dot well known endpoint, which can be static even. And then like, then then like three URLs, like three endpoints. It's really not complicated. So I think any app can put this in there.

To John Spurlock school, something he's working on, or has worked on called mini pub, which takes the weight of a full blown mastodons server, and just does the reeling element of it. Now, John and I spoke and I don't know if this is going to come back to life. And that's up to John, but he has something available there that could work as a relay. Because actually, if all the apps become full blown activity pub clients, then all
you're using is the activity pub protocol. Mastodon doesn't become part of the conversation is just happens to be another endpoint for publishing activity, but it doesn't have to be specifically the mastodon API that we use, it will be the activity pub protocol use so

you know, that's good for the and that's good for activity pub for the whole ecosystem, because it takes the you know, it blunts this monopolistic dominance that Mastodon has ended up with.

Exactly, shall we? Thanks. Some people were two hours seven minutes at this point. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. And And as an aside, we are at block height 33 blocks left five hours 30 minutes and 35 seconds until the habit Oh,

how many how long until the heavens five hours? Five hours. Okay. So we will see we need to need to keep the show going for until seven till eight o'clock tonight.

We can have breakfast with Sam.

That's the title of the show. Breakfast was Sam. Oh,

goodness gracious Goodman. Well, how about I do the booths that have been coming in? Yes, I start that off. We are value for value of course. So the whole project everything Dave and I do here is value for value. Keeps everything running. We appreciate all of the all of the support we've been receiving. Doesn't matter how much how little but of course, outside of pay pals and onchange no one ever does. We are rarely
ever does. We really want you to get a modern podcast app and boost us so we have a row of ducks 2222 from Jason from podcast guru. And he says thanks Sam for increasing my backlog.

Sorry. Very nice. That's that's Sam's middle name backlog.

Mike Dell with a row of ducks. 2022 no censorship brand safety RSS is podcasting. Freedom. That's right. Gene Everett says boost with 3333 chatter for the row of ducks AI articles read by AI voices. Oh brother. Yes, right. So the dead internet. Salty crayon. He says boosting from the secret squirrel office through true fans boost with 333 and another row of sticks or riches sack of Richards from salty crayon Flashback Friday in the boardroom lighters big hair and
bandanas rockin go podcasting? Yes, indeed. Chat F was another row of ducks. Phoebe hates ads. She was barking a lot during that 1652 From let's see fountain user. Oh, no, that's that's a different podcast. I'm sorry. That makes you that? Mere Mortals podcast. Here we go row. Satchel of Richard's felt wrong boosting not using true fans. It's not my favorite app to use on a desktop. And if you guys celebrating the halving in some way, yes, we're gonna keep on the air. Just heard? Yeah. Kyron
1000 SATs from fountain user 21398871. Change it. Sam in the house is right. He podcasts over the 1000 SATs preach podcasting is an RSS feed with an enclosure. And there Sir Brian of London down there in Tel Aviv is in Tel Aviv, isn't he? Aggies Intellivue chug Samish happy Passover to all Oh yeah, that's right. Happy Passover. Think we eat? What is it? Apple with honey on Passover. I can't remember.

The sheep hoof Yeah, there

you go blow the horn. Mini yes striper boosts 777 Just listening first time listening live couldn't get found to work live before and he's boosting from phantom so you got it to work Mike Dell with popcorn ready? He says 1701 Chat F with another row of ducks. I TBR in the boardroom to you. Blitz see we have anything else that came in. I have one before the delimiter I'm not sure but all I'll do this one just in case you didn't get a day. 5000 SATs from Linkin Park
rules. Hey, curry in the pod sage. Adam, I've noticed those eye catching gifs recently in your no agenda chapters. Yes. That is the work of the Bruce Wayne of podcasting. 2.0 Dred Scott, I'm glad you've come to the dark side. Check out the latest episode of ungovernable misfits to see our GIF game gifs in Chapter an episode art or the real video podcast, pew pew. Alright, Dave, would you have dragged

her? Just we're okay in Chapter art and consequently went berserk?

Of course he did. Yeah.

Oh, Steven crater, the developer of podcast AP the hottest thing on the net. Sliced bread. Yes. since sliced bread. Gave us $100 Brother.

Wow, that does I need a wise my thing working here. There was a podcast
shot called 20 is blades on the hem Paula.

I blame the power outage for the AP bridge. He says podcast ap.com brought some extra pressure to the bridge server. It did but we're holding up good. Good. I've got we're still getting periodic reports of follows not completing. There's like a three way handshake that happens when you do a follow and on an activity pub where it has to you request to follow then it verifies and then it completes sends an invoice

checks the house.

Yeah. Yeah. So then sometimes that thing is getting interrupted and I don't know exactly why but I've got I'm going to sign up for an account. There's some there's a AP client called Sharky is evidently I think it's a fork of miski and it's evidently that's got a problem. So we've had a couple of days we've ironed most of them out but that one seems problematic. I don't know why but you are going to fix it. Thank you Steve. Appreciate that brother. See, we've got almost
plays out here it is. Oh $300 from the boys and girls a blueberry podcast. Oh
boy. 20 is Blaze own. I am Paula Wow. Thank

you so much note,

I had a note Hey Gents, the team here at Hey Jen. Hey, Jan's blueberry. Podcasting has our head down working on products to reduce overall costs for podcasters. By replacing third party services, they're paying big bucks. That is causing them to question while they are why they are podcasting. Yes, you get that but that bill for big bucks. You ask yourself why?

Why am I podcasting? Why am I doing this again? Yeah. Thank

you. Very nice. Thank you. Appreciate that. That helps a lot Buzzsprout that they also help a lot $1,000
My 20 is blades only Ambala has it been a month since their last $1,000 donation?

We're old. That's the problem. We're old. What do you mean going by incredibly fast.

Really? Really? It's been a month? Yes. Wow. Yes, dude, thank you so much Buzzsprout you're really keeping this rollin to its appreciate Yeah,

they never put a note in but we we

know we know we know there's love dripping off it everywhere is just

dripping it there's we're also a seen a big decrease in the amount of spam feeds coming from Buzzsprout. And I think they have been talking to Tom I think he's doing some good blocking now on IP at the IP level. And so I'm keeping an eye on that but they're they're trying to get things under control. Appreciate you guys. Listen, I'm having trouble. Oh, you're here this up Beats Music podcast $4.20 Thank you
afternoon board. room just a pre havening donation before tomorrow, or tonight by the time of which, by the time of this, which this sounds like a rebel by the time of this, which is only 49 blocks away according to Clark moody dashboard, Dave, here's some value for the effort to fix the by medium endpoint. According to Steven B. Max equals 3000 broke it. So go

sorry, when you

750 Is your

50 your angel

number, remember? Yes. And we got a new subscriptions subscriber monthly subscribers, silicone florist and dollars a month. Thank you. So call florist, you

silicone florist.

We get some boosts. Let's see if I can pull up the the booster dashboard. Here's the matting the booster Monica Jean been 1024 killer boost. The cast Matic he says if a podcast app has activity pub client functionality under the hood, and pod cat and pod ping is bridged to activity pub, then even serverless apps like cast emetic could receive and benefit from pod pings. Yes, yes. But you still need a notification
mechanism. And that's what we're trying to hash out. Alex was hashing out the some of that stuff on the on the social last week, you still need some sort of really a push notification. Because the app in my own modern phones, if they're native apps. Now true fans wouldn't have this problem I met Well, I guess that's not serverless. So but on a native app, you can't be guaranteed to be always running in the background. So you would have to have some sort, the only way to get timely notifications
is through some sort of push. And each platform grows. But each platform has its own way of doing things and get unified push Apple, Firebase, it's just it's, it's a lot. So one of these days. We'll get there. We'll get there. Mike Dell, from over blueberry 1701 That's a Captain Picard boost. You found a nice as shown off boosts.

Always fun. We're gonna shoot. We're gonna boost

gene bein again. 1337 elite boost, he says Dave, instead of writing an audio book app, it'd be awesome if you expanded the audio book shelf app. No idea if that's practical, but it'd be awesome.

Must when you open an app I think it's open source.

Oh, is it no no, I didn't know that.

I believe so.

That's cool. All right. Yeah, that's okay. I looked at it.

I think you can do that Sunday night between 11 and one you still have some time leftover on your calendar. Yeah

squeezed in between dinner and dessert. Mike Dale 1701 He comes in again he says grow your show lame and create creations and desert buddy Andy over there. 3000 says crook asthmatic. He says he's a grower and to show thank you all for you. This is Andy Lamma creations. 3000 says he says thank you all for all you guys do. Thanks to Adam. I have been working on my V for V ask on my podcast Answers podcast and thanks today for well, just being Dave and doing all the tech work. He does your podcast

you go go podcast.

Thank you, Andy. Up in 1984. Three found a nice to see 4000 says he says back in September, I wrote a blog post in response to a discussion Chris Fisher over at Jupiter broadcasting had about advertising in the podcast space. It's not exactly what you were talking about. But maybe some ideas can be pulled from it and refined to fit in with your idea. Here's the address for the post https colon slash slash opp y 1980 four.com/sets. For ads.

I read that I read that good article.

I've not read it because I just saw this sets for cash. Bill Prague, he's a hive guy through fountain 2000 SAS. He says protocol that you use for pod paying as optional for decentralized communities everyone can access. It also has accounts that everyone that everyone can access. What you were talking about apps is exactly what it is. What is happening with apps on the protocol. I use one when I want this is either autocorrect

No, it's Brian. Brian bill is drying of London writing under a pseudonym. Okay, Bill, Bill, yeah, Bill.

I use one when I want to post something. Other one for comments because as easy reply system, one that's better for notifications, but all of them have access to the data and are connected. Clearly a hive endorsement they're 20 to 20 Do road ducks from car and it's no more just mere mortals podcast they found he says apologies I've been MIA no you don't have to apologize car and I'm trying to spend as much time as
possible learning Portuguese while whilst in Brazil. Dave must have been a civil engineer in a previous life with the amount of bridging he's doing.

You can work in Baltimore anytime.

Todd Cochran big T 50,000. Says the fountain been listening but have been busier than a one legged man and ask kicking contest. Sometimes you just got to put your head down and work headed to pod fest Asia shortly to spread the Gospel. Happy podcasting.

That's right. That's right. Have a good trip, man.

Thank you brother to see. Yes. And I do see the Linkin Park rules. I get that one. So I'm going to jump over here. delimiter limiter, calm straight blogger 24,000 SATs through fountain he says Daddy Phillip Bitcoiners Adam and Dave. Happy Bitcoin having to you. I would also like to recommend the complex candour podcast. You're welcome to subscribe it complex candour.com. The podcast covers a variety of topics including language motivation, wellness,
join hosts Sam and Lady Vox for engaging discussions. Tune in to complex candour where wisdom is gained through understanding new episodes are released approximately every two weeks yo CSB.

Yo brother thank you always promoting other podcasts lovely.

We got some monthlies. We got yarn, Rosenstein $1 Derek J. Vickery, the best name and podcasting. 2.0 $21. Paul Salzman. $22.22 Thank you Paul. Damon Cassie, Jack $15 Thank you, Damon. Jeremy. gerdts $5 New Media Productions that's Todd and Rob without Rob's permission $30 Wow, Michael Hall $5.50 And Satan's low you're down under $5.

Thank you. So thank you all so much. It's value for value go to podcasts. index.org. Down at the bottom you'll see two red donate buttons one for your entre on chain coins. Tally coin, check. We had nothing. The other one for your Fiat fund coupons at through PayPal and of course, modern podcast apps.com In order to send us boosts that work. Well. We love reading your notes. I want to thank all of the developers. We have a lot of developers many behind the scenes who don't necessarily get
as much exposure Thank you Alex gates, Sir Brian of London. I also want to thank Oscar for doing a great job on what is it? Peter McCormick show? What happened was it what happened with Bitcoin now what is it called? WhatsApp was Bitcoin this No it's

right now and what happened with Bitcoin?

But he has a soccer club. He has real Bedford Oh,

oh, yeah. Yeah.

The Oscar was on the show did a great he actually said I want you to critique my appearance. And be honest. I don't know if he's recovered. But he did a really he did a really good job, and really appreciate what you do Oscar. Thank you also to develop Remo from true fans who I don't even know if he has time to listen to podcast but his work is also appreciated. And of course, our guest today in the boardroom Sam Sethi. Sam, thank you so much. You're You're really a guiding
light. I love that you're stepping forward to lead the PSP. Thank you for being completely reckless and crazy. We appreciate you for that. We really do. I mean, it's you know sometimes Dave and I'll get Did you can see that email from Sam. We're like, Yeah, do you understand now no idea what he's talking about. So much, so much. But, but now this this is exactly what we need. When we are the Skunk Works. We are reckless. We do run with scissors and you're a fine
example of it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for staying up late for being with us today.

I'm going to pop off this. I'm not drinking. I'm going to the pub. Yeah. Look at other people,

observing people being drunk. Okay, there you go. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, have yourself a great weekend and happy happenings.

Thank you for inviting me guys. I loved it.

Of course we'd love to have you back. Thank you very much boardroom you guys. Were great today. Dave brothers. Thank you so much. What are you laughing?

Eric PPC is dedicated the activity pub. Whoa. All right. I'm back right under the wire. Beautiful.

All right, Dave. I'll talk to next week brother have a great vacation. Thank you so much for being with us here in the boardroom. We look forward to doing it next Friday, everything and more right here on podcasting 2.0
You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org For more information, podcast. Good girl, baby