Episode 173: Pugnacious Proclivities - podcast episode cover

Episode 173: Pugnacious Proclivities

Mar 29, 20242 hr 40 min
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Episode description

Podcasting 2.0 March 29th 2024 Episode 173: "Pugnacious Proclivities"

Adam & Dave kick off Ester weekend with Love, respect and ActivityStreams

ShowNotes

We are LIT

Podcast Movement Video Appearance

Value4Value redux

TLV records people!

Mobile Game Ads Are Boosting Podcast Follower Counts - Bloomberg

Activity Streams in ActivityPub

Alby NWC lightning?

Strike Black? Lightning?

Super Testnet Introduces Hedgehog: A Protocol For Asynchronous Layer 2 Bitcoin Payments - Bitcoin Magazine - Bitcoin News, Articles and Expert Insights

Metadata drama

PodcastIndex Dashboard

Fedifying the Index

Sam Podcast Standards Project Liaison

-------------------------------------

MKUltra chat

Transcript Search

What is Value4Value? - Read all about it at Value4Value.info

V4V Stats

Last Modified 03/29/2024 14:21:10 by Freedom Controller  

Transcript

Adam CurryAdam Curry

podcasting 2.0 From March 29 2024, episode 173 Ignatius proclivities Hello, everybody once again, welcome to the official board meeting of podcasting point. Oh, this is where we discuss podcasting. That's right. You may be in Los Angeles, city of devils. You may be hanging out there thinking you're discussing the future of podcasting, but it's all right here and it's live every single Friday afternoon, everything going on with podcasts, index.org, podcasts, index dot

social podcasting, two.org, you name it. We are the only boardroom that refuses to be on YouTube. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in Alabama, the man whose activity pub bridge is stronger than the one in Baltimore Harbor. Hello, name Joe.

Dave JonesDave Jones

That's, this is this is where I furiously try to eat as much popcorn as possible while you're doing the intro. So that my mouth is not full. When you pitch to me, well,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

well, people should understand that. We have day jobs. Your day job is actually a Monday to Friday. And you have a job that requires you to be very active right around tax time, which is twice a year in your world. It is October and April.

Dave JonesDave Jones

This what is this? I saw a picture of Sam Sethi heading a board meeting of those something about 2.0 in Oh, no. Oh, yes. Angeles. Oh, there's a competing boardroom?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

No, no, no, no, no, he has offered himself to be the spokesmodel for the for the spokes. Oh, I think spokesmodel is better for the podcast Standards Project. Yes. So they have a meeting out there.

Dave JonesDave Jones

What are we doing here?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I don't know. I didn't get a memo. Did you get anyone else in the boardroom got a memo? I didn't get a memo for you did

Dave JonesDave Jones

make an appearance at Podcast Movement though. Which looks very much like the Bill Gates. 1984 Apple, and it

Adam CurryAdam Curry

was exactly what I was thinking. I had no idea. So James very kindly asked me to produce a video about podcasting. 2.0 about two minutes. Well, what can you do in two minutes? So I that's what you said. Dude. So I did and it was just me static in the studio, in the way it portrayed, which by the way, they look really nice. That room, the stage looked nice. Everyone had nice theater seats. You know, great background center stage. And then on either side was a

huge monitor in my head appeared. And yeah, looking at that, I'm like, wow, it is like 1980 for the period. I have no time to hang out with you plebs over there. I'll just let you know what I really think is going on. Now

Dave JonesDave Jones

you did the best thing that you like, this was the ultimate win. Win win for a Podcast Movement is you get to be there but you don't have to know.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Exactly. That's the best way to do it. I'd like to attend all conferences that way. So just hit me up and I'll record a video for you. No problem. No problem. Yeah. So I was listening to how you doing brother? You okay, everything good.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I'm digging my way out of this out of this allergy hole.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Oh, goodness. Is that time of year again?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Is this this is pine, pine pollen. In the south. It's just like, if you haven't been in this in the southeast during during March, April. It's just basically a blanket of yellow.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

We have we have crap right now. We we've got it here too in the southwest, Southwest.

Dave JonesDave Jones

So in Texas, is it like is it the way it is here when the wind blows? Yep. It's like yellow, a yellow wave. A

Adam CurryAdam Curry

waft a waft of stuff he has like a cloud goes through the air.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, Paul is a pollen tornado that goes through now we have that we

Adam CurryAdam Curry

just got over cedar fever. We have that. The trees just go. And they also emanate this cloud of stuff. But hey, that's why we live here. We live we live in in these areas for the food. It

Dave JonesDave Jones

makes our makes our bodies stronger. Boot Camp like boot camp for, you know for your immune system. So

Adam CurryAdam Curry

we have a couple of things to discuss. And I wanted to start off with some advice and some some historical experience and experience. Because we're there's some things that are moving off track a little bit and it's specifically as it pertains to value for value So I want to do a quick little Redux and re introduction for many what value for value is and the how I have made it work for myself, and for Jhansi. Dvorak for 16, will be it'll be 17 years in October.

And we've lived off of this. So it actually weren't

Dave JonesDave Jones

you say we've lived off of it. I mean, like, this is been your full time job for 16. For no for

Adam CurryAdam Curry

for 1414 years, probably for almost 15 years full time, but I've not done anything else. I've tried some other things. But this, this is what has paid the rent, has put a couple kids through school has kept our wives happy. Although no, that's not true. But which one is which one,

Dave JonesDave Jones

I'm making stuff up.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And then there's a very good website value for value dot info, value number four, value dot info, which explains all of these things, because people are starting to treat what we have in podcasting to point out as other things. And I just want to give my experience, how it's worked for me and how it was designed initially. And sometimes it's good to just have a reminder, and this comes from conversation I heard on pod news weekly review,

Dave JonesDave Jones

where, where I knew this was coming.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Well, Sam has been working well. Sam works with lots of people. And I really appreciate what he does, because he'll just throw everything at the wall and then go out and throw it in your face to make it stick. And And this, by the way, activity streams, which we'll get to. I'm glad he did that, because it got me to open up about that and think about and I'm kind of excited. But he's been working with Barry at pod home. And when I heard that they added was a part of Phase seven.

But the medium equals courses, or course I think it is I II it's an educational course. And that Barry is setting a minimum price that you must pay, I need to stop and say let me explain how this works. Because you're going to have disappointing results. With with value from the genesis of value for value, which was not the book 1000 true fans. Now this goes way back way back 16, almost 17 years ago, we started no agenda. And within a

couple of weeks, we were like this is actual work. You need to compensate us for this. We didn't want to go down the advertising route. And also to be candid. It's not that I'm against advertising. I hate meetings. I didn't want to meet with clients about that. That was really and neither does John. So that was really the main reason why.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And that's not I mean that that sounds like a trite thing. But I mean, let's, I can't tell you how many advertising roundtables I've seen where they have they talk endlessly for 20 to 30 minutes about how to get the, the, the host to show up for a meeting where they can describe what they want him to say. Yeah, it's this is this is not a this is not a thing to discount. No,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm not, I'm not. And I've been in commercial broadcasting all my life. So I understand that extremely well. I'm like, here's an opportunity. And so I didn't want to do that knew that, John. At the time, we also were in a company that ran on advertisements, and we saw that it was basically cheap, the content is produce the content as cheaply as possible and then put ads all over it. That's you know, like a NASCAR only put the sponsor stickers on the windshield. So we decided to ask

people to contribute. And we said, Why don't you set up a Pay Pal subscription for I think it was actually $2 a month, but I'll say it was five just to make it easy, or not not a month that was I think per show or per week doesn't even matter. It was a subscription based thing. I think we did $2 Because it'd be easy to calculate one for you. One for me, that's how simple it was. Of course, we produce everything ourselves. It's very important in podcasting, that if you can't produce it yourself,

you're gonna have a very hard time living off of it. That's good. I guarantee that. Well, we got the the expected results, we got maybe about $200 a month. I mean, it was very, very disappointing. And we expressed our disappointment like we do like this what we're doing, because if you're listening you clearly like it for some reason. They said worth anything to you. Is it is it. I mean, please tell us, just send them whatever you

think it's worth. And we got many more by asking just by asking which remember, my wife is a now retired from corporate life. A chief communications officer for nonprofits. She's always said to me out of the number one reason why people don't donate to a nonprofit is they didn't get asked that surprising, but people Oh, you need money. Okay, well, he didn't ask me. That's and they could be at an event then Don't even donate money. But if you ask them, then suddenly they do. So you have to have,

Dave JonesDave Jones

I can confirm, I can confirm this. In many ways I've, I used to have, along with a friend of mine a, an apologetics ministry here. And we did things in many states here in the south. And we would go to our and our initial idea was we wanted to bring it for free. And we would just ask for, we would ask for donations. All of us were too scared, or too nervous to ask from the pulpit or wherever we were for a donation. And then And guess what? Nobody, nobody ever gave us any money.

Yes, it all came out of our own pocket. It's amazing. As soon as we got some balls, and started asking that they people people started giving,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

asking you shall be answered. Yes, knock on the door shall be opened, seek and you shall find. So yes, this is this is prophecy. So we asked, and we got a lot of people sending $50 This was very surprising. Not only that, but several people sent $500 And one person sent $5,000. All because we asked the difference between $200 in a month. And it was probably six and a half 1000 Because we asked in one episode, we never looked back. Now this

Dave JonesDave Jones

needs to be documented like in I would love to hear the evolution of how this sounded on air. Time.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Good one, I'm gonna go I'm gonna look for that. That's a very good point, because I want to know exactly what episode we started that. That's, that's a great point. Thank you. But I can probably look through the transcripts. Very quickly, we noticed that people really wanted a reason to donate. And one of those reasons would be that they would add a note. And on Pay Pal, you can add a little note the notes. It's, it's changed over time as to how long that note can be in

the actual PayPal description. But the idea is is supposed to be pretty short. And we would read those now in the beginning, we read them all and then it became too much and people would send like $2 $5. And then when a certain point, we said, look, we're only going to read notes above a certain amount, just for

brevity sake just for time sake. And people understood that and many people to this day, we may have I can look at it right now we have eight notes that we will read, which has been for a long time, the even despite inflation has been $200 or above. But there's 400 donations for each show. And we don't talk at the end, it goes all the way down to $1. And there's usually a bunch of 50s. And then a whole bunch of people do 1111. And they do

all kinds of stuff. We found quickly, people really enjoyed that feedback loop. And it was well known from the beginning, we're going to read your note, if you send it above a certain amount, that note is going to be read. And pretty much everyone under that amount doesn't even send in a note anymore. They just send in the money like this is what it was worth to be here you go here. Here's the cash. And we've been using PayPal exclusively for all this time, I think we just added stripe and

that has helped for some foreign payments. But over time, we learned that this ask really became important people would would would start to count up their their amounts I have donated this much. Do I get a tote bag now like NPR? But like no, no. So we gamified it. Then we have premium concert and I was living in the UK at the time. He said well make you a night make you a night with an origin around say why should the Queen be the only one who can do that? That's just off the cuff.

And if you're a woman then it will be a Dane. And it wasn't until I landed in Texas now 14 years ago. And so it was probably there was actually maybe 11 years ago I met Jean and surgeon was a night and he said hey, you know it's $1,000 if you $1,000 over the entire length of the time that you've donated and you you do your own bookkeeping will trust you honor system, then you become a knight and we have a little ceremony to this day, we still have a ceremony we have a sword sound

and everything. It's all theater of the mind. But it's a community aspect. And over time we start sending out a signet ring with sealing wax they have in the certificate of authenticity, it's all it's I mean, it's basically a cheap Chinese ring. And it costs us a couple 100 bucks. It's you know, many people there it's worn off the silver has gone as tungsten underneath. But that's not the point. It represents a

contribution to the to the to the program. And we also never call people listeners we always considered them producers because we added to that, that you can support us with time, talent or treasure. We've also never built a website never hosted our own infrastructure. never done any Are any of that because people consider that also a contribution and it is a one for one contribution. Go ahead and set up a website or outsource it now way go and go and contract artists to do image

art every single show. You know, we get 2030 different submissions to choose from and it's become competitive. So now

Dave JonesDave Jones

the same with it same with this show. I mean so every time every time Steven crater goes and fixes a podcast duplicate problem in the in the database it's that's a monetary yeah seem to me yeah every time Eric every time every PP submits a version of Hello pad to start nine or to Umbral that's that's worth an immense amount of monetary and time to me Yes,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

exactly and to me we're both dealing with with stuff but to you much, much more anytime someone does something, a pull request for the website with an update. It's all time talent and treasure, even just sometimes sending a happy email saying thanks for what you guys do you know how happy that makes me happier than $50? Let me tell you that it makes me feel really good. So then we gamified it because Jean said, Hey, I made $1,000 on a nightly I got nothing else, you know, I have

nothing to aspire to. Oh, well, why don't we just do periods what comes after night Vikon. What comes after that Baronet will come after that Baron. So every $1,000 in aggregate and it could be over 10 years, it doesn't matter. Even someone who donates $10 a month, eventually they become a knight as long as we stay in business, it is a very fair system, because people only will support you what they find the product is worth. If they don't like it, they won't donate. But if you don't ask,

they won't donate either. And if it's not an outstanding product, they will not support you. And you have to continuously be reminding people, this is how we make it work. This is why this show is here. It's just as much your show as it is our show. This also circumvents another problem, the the you need to do this because otherwise I'm unsubscribing I'm not gonna send you any money anymore. This is why I don't like subscriptions.

Because then people think that they can say, Well, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, you're you're biting the hand that feeds you. Now, in this case, we do exactly what we do. We believe it's a great product. If you don't like it, then you have no value, then why are you even listening, you shouldn't be supporting us at all go away. And and I'll say it that way, it's fine. So we built this up over these years. And we've learned a couple things along the way. Numerology is

very important. I think that's carried over very well to the value for value streaming, SATs and boosting SATs and booster grams. As we see by the numbers, people love reasons to donate. We also send out a newsletter to remind them before every single show, the newsletter contains content. But basically it's Hey, we're doing the show support us. I'm not going to be bashful about it and, and divorce looks much worse than I am. So here we

are. 17 years later, I'm going to be 60 this year, John's in his 70s. And we're still doing phenomenally well, for a podcast, we have according to Opie three stats around the 900,000 downloaders learned if you can't say listener, downloaders, unique audience, whatever it is, and, and, and, you know, we've never really had any horrible issues throughout all those years, it goes up and down. Yeah. So you can't, you know, if you if you make a nice bundle one show, don't blow it

all. Because it may dip a little bit based upon vacations, holidays, all kinds of stuff, tax time, right before tax time horrible right after tax time people get their returns, they start donating. So there's all these things that you learn over time. It will be very disappointing if you start putting in a minimum amount that people have to pay, because people will then only pay that amount. I know this from experience. So but if you don't ask, and if you don't thank

people however you do it. And I think that you don't have to have exactly our our system. But it what we are not doing here. So when when we created podcasting two point out the index, and the namespace, the namespace was really to put in the lightning payments that you know, we needed a namespace, and I think was it chapters that we that we put in there from all the other namespace that we that we took that from the pod log, what was it? Oh,

Dave JonesDave Jones

yeah, yeah, well, that was the whole feed. Yeah, in theory chapters, right.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

But it was really to get this going and then over time that evolved into booster grams, which is now replicating with almost zero friction is replicating the idea of a PayPal payment with a note in the message. Right. So that is how value for value works. And you can listen to no agenda you can

listen to well Even this show, it is not. And so now we're going to move over to I was listening to Sam with January, Daniel J. Lewis, talking about activity streams, which is something I'm very interested in and integrating activity pub, I need to get Sam Sethi off the idea that the T O V record is somehow trying to be what activity streams is. It's not, it is a purely a message in a payment. That works exactly like a message in a PayPal payment. We're not trying to jam all

kinds of stuff in there. It is a beautiful, seamless, frictionless way to replicate the functionality of a PayPal payment within with a message. It is also so and I heard this said and it really disturbed me. It is not a comment with the payments. No, it is a support that can have a note with it. It's not a comment with a payment. It's the other

Dave JonesDave Jones

way around. It's

Adam CurryAdam Curry

the other way around. It's a nation with a common Yes. And if we're if we're treating it just like so. Apparently, there's some outfit that's in Los Angeles, pocket.fm. And they raised you know, 100 million dollars and they're doing microtransactions. It's not value for value, that is microtransactions. The value for value is it is a monetization system. It is a programming format. It is not the microtransactions is just what it does. But when you force

people to pay X amount, you're going to be disappointed. Look at all the streamers it's not working, you will ultimately only have one streaming or maybe two, and everything else will be rolled into it. I can predict the future. I'm from the future. Trust me on this, it's already falling apart. So TLVs are not where we want to put activity stuff. In fact, the TLV record is very limited. You know, there's only so much space, it was perfect for what it's doing right now. Absolutely perfect.

heli pad is a reader. It's like looking at my PayPal. In fact, it looks exactly like PayPal. It has it has all the payments, the name the amount and if I click on it, I can see the message. That's what it is. Now there's other things that it can do. But that's in essence what it does this the TLV record for for streaming payments and boosts and booster grams. That's it now go and listen to I'll give an example this week in Bitcoin

listen to it, what he's doing over there. He started from zero he's already doing 100 Sometimes a couple $100 an episode in SATs because he's doing the thank you segment. He's also saying this is what makes the show work. You need to support me not send me a booster gram send me a note haha, I'll read it. Or it's a comment because happens to show up on fountain. That's not what it is. One other thing, because this also came up in in the future

podcasting podcast. The payments are inherently public. This is not what you send a private message to your podcaster. So let's get off the whole idea of Oh, it's a privacy issue that multiple people get the message? No, it's inspirational and aspirational. Go look at any crowdfunding site. What do you see? You see name, amount and maybe a message. And why does that work? Why do they do that? Because people like Oh, looks like everyone's given 100 bucks, I'll give 100 bucks. Or you know

what? I feel like I should give more give 200 bucks. Can I make myself anonymous? Well, yes, and V for V payments in apps are inherently anonymous. You can put whatever name you want in there. So all these things are important if you want to make the full value for value system work. If you're skipping steps, if you're not understanding the guy, hit me up. I'll explain that to you again, privately. If you don't understand the whole system, it will not work for you and you're going to get exactly

what you deserve. That's why when I hear people still saying tipping, no, it's not a tip. If you're asking for tips, then you're gonna get tip money. You need to speak specifically about the support. This is not for everybody. And not everybody has a podcast that will be good enough that enough people listen and care about it. They're going to support it. That is the value for value system. Value for value dot info. You can review it. There's guides there's there's detailed examples of how

it works. You can in fact turn this into a lifestyle

Dave JonesDave Jones

I think we're, I think there's some fundamental misunderstandings that financially with with things and it's under, it's just it is understandable to me how those things can get misinterpreted. One is that one of the misunderstandings is that things is that there's a fundamental difference between the audience behavior, when you're advertising supported, when you're when you're value for value, or when you are subscription based human

behavior. So, in the, in the, in the economics world, this would be called like a praxeology. Human behavior is always is the same. A human is going to behave finance in within in regards like financially, we each were each unique. And we're always going to operate according to our own manner, our own personality, with regard, whether it's advertising based, whether the content we're listing is advertising based,

subscription based, or whatever. And so what I mean by that is, we, you think that, okay, if I just put a minimum, if I'm making the minimum, which is essentially a subscription, if I may, if that if I don't do that, people are just going to be, they're just going to listen to my stuff for free. Well, that your that doesn't fundamentally change how many people listen to your stuff. So like, what I mean by that is, a person who's not going to pay you anything, is just never going to listen to

your show period. Like you don't get anything from extra from that you're not, you're not creating a customer where there was not one before, you've already produced the content. So having 10 extra people listened to it doesn't mean that those 10 people would have paid you if you had made it a subscription. Like you're not getting more for that. Correct, because it's and then it's but but it's also the same with advertising. So just because you're advertising the advertising, and I want to talk

about this a lot more. When we talk about pod verse. I mean, the advertising thing just puts a layer of fog over this whole process, you You appear to be making making more money. And a woman you are I'm not necessarily the same but you appear it, it takes that whole thing and it puts a layer of option obfuscation between it, it's sort of like it's sort of like paying you're going to the doctor and paying them directly versus paying them through an insurance company. Now there's a

middle now there's a middle layer, yes. And what it does is, is it it just like a health insurance layer, it takes the it takes what would be a sort of a sliding scale of variable income. And it just chops you off at the knees. Once you go below a certain level. People below a certain amount of listeners don't get any advertising revenue whatsoever. Everybody above a certain, a certain amount of listeners, or downloads, which is haha, everybody above that certain

number gets 99% of the revenue. So it's not, it's not like any of these things are fundamentally different. What you're doing with value for value is you're saying, okay, look, the people who are going to who I'm going to ask to support me, who are always going to be the people who love my content the most those people, they're going to pay me no matter what. But if I don't put artificial limits on them, and I give them the freedom to pay me when they want and how much they

want. It respects them enough yes to four I can I can enjoy the full range of their generosity, whether this month there, they may be only able to send me a couple of bucks next month, they may be send me a couple 100 bucks because COVID happened in Nam Now a very important voice in their life to give them calm or all these sorts of things that that you

become important to a listener. So I mean, I just don't I think it might help to get out of this mindset that putting that making your content subscription or going with advertising fundamentally changes the the Creator listener financial relationship, all you're doing is you're not changing the way that that listener is going to be willing to support you. All you're doing is putting various layers of obfuscation over something that's fundamentally ultimately the same. The same process

Adam CurryAdam Curry

if millions of YouTubers can incessantly ask people All, too smash that like button hips that hit subscribe, and make sure you click on the bell, you can easily say please hit the boost button. How hard how I mean, how hard is it? It's and they say the same thing you really support the podcast why?

Because you need to have 10,000 subscribers and then you can get into the AdSense program, etc, etc etc. One other thing that I should mention that kind of what I learned what I learned from this, this early experience is I cannot determine what someone thinks is valuable or what valuable means to them. Yeah, valuable when someone sends me $5 I'm just as happy. Thank you for the value as I am for $5,000 Because I know that that person

put I just all I asked was what do you think it's worth? And $5 Maybe a lot to somebody, bribe and 5000 Maybe nothing to somebody else.

Dave JonesDave Jones

The Yeah, and the other thing is set, SATs Satoshis Bitcoin, the boosting all that stuff that that that is a distinct thing that is not value for value. But you could you could take with somebody could create an app tomorrow. This says I'm going to create it somebody can create an app that has subscription based podcasting, podcasting, and you unlock the episodes with boosts. That is not so so inept payment, boosting Satoshis Bitcoin streaming, all that kind of

stuff. That is all a technology. The for V is not a technology. It's it's a paradigm, though. Thank you. And so like when you and that's a very fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of people have when they when they're talking about podcasting 2.0. You know, agenda doesn't do boosting for value for value. Nope. The is only pay pal. So they're they're fundamentally

separate things. The thing that what what the whole reason we did lightning value for value in app payment, excuse me lightning, Bitcoin, in app payments, is because of this problem of PayPal, locking down, censoring people throwing deep platforming people threatening to charge people if they donated to a show that later became, you know, put on some sort of list.

It was a real shocker. So we needed a way to go directly from listener to creator without going through any intermediaries that in that boosting in app payments, that kind of thing. That is a that is a non middleman and anti de platforming technology is what that is also, that is not the for V

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Correct. Also, it's programmable money, and we could do all this cool stuff because of its programmability we never had that we still don't have that with with with PayPal, this

is just not there. So the programmability is what really makes it fly and the decentralized nature of it, etc. But yes, in the in the beginning, the genesis was definitely this is an index that will not be platform you and you can also if you are willing to adopt the value for value lifestyle and take a vow of poverty for the foreseeable future. Then it but at the same time enjoy the pure the sheer joy of seeing Satoshis dripping is funny. I'll give an example.

Tina, my wife and I we started a podcast 78 episodes ago and after somewhere around episode 25 I think we said we were doing it once every two weeks it let's do it every single let's let's do this for real. And we talk about God, whine, husband and wife staff. I think it's a pretty good a pretty good product. We have according to OP three I think about 11,000 unique audience members on a monthly basis. So this four shows a week. We take PayPal, we take the V streaming SATs and

booster grams and and we're not in apple. Okay, we're not even in apple which was on purpose because I wanted to launch a pure V for V show. Although we did add Pay Pal later. Because a lot of church folk are like technology and say okay, I'm going to teach you don't worry. Yeah, and we're doing $400 A show And we're only on show 78 I think a lot of people who are doing podcasts would say, Where do I sign for that? Now? Is it because it's Adam curry bull crap? No. But we have cultivated

our audience. We read their messages, their notes. By the way, people send us wine people send us other things, which to us is just as valuable. We'd love that. It's another way of providing value back. It works.

Dave JonesDave Jones

It's not because it's Adam curry IK. If it was, I would listen to the show. I don't I'm not occurring the keeper listener. Like it's not a it's not a cult. It's not a cult of personality thing. It's that's a brand new show that started from from Greengrass. Yeah, yeah, that this This is, yeah, this is this is important. It's just, I think it's easy to to misunderstand these things and begin to drift. I think. I think this is an important thing to like, Reese recenter. You

know, refocus things from time to time. So okay, this, Nina likes it because it's easy to drift off course,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

it very easy and and the more you ask, the more you shall receive. I mean, it's really true. I mean, this is look at your own life. Eventually you see the the GoFundMe for something so many times you like, you'll start to think like, I should probably support that. And then you go and do it. And you and you go look at the site like oh, look at all these beautiful messages. People are saying, Look at all this, oh, this is cool. Look that mean, now they also they

also have goals and all that stuff, which you could do. But then look at this project itself, it started from zero for months, we paid it out of our own pocket, you know, we set up all those little servers that was sucking out Apple's database. That was cool. We're not scraping, though we acted like we were clients. And that's why it took months because we

didn't try and Jack it all out. You know, we had people like Chris Chris, I seen the sweetest trickler, who would send us you know, all kinds of subscriptions, all kinds of people were contributing to that. That's your time, talent and treasure. And then over time, as the hosting companies saw what benefit we were to their business, enter their lives, their livelihoods. So they see value in what we do. They've become our biggest supporters. But also app

developers have become some of our biggest supporters. So now you can say if we had just said, meow, and nothing, or just had on the website, a donate button, this project will

Dave JonesDave Jones

be over. Oh, yeah, wouldn't have lasted three months. But we have a real

Adam CurryAdam Curry

ask. And we put an hour we have a couple $1,000 We put in ourselves and now it just runs itself. Now, we also don't need to live off of this. And we don't. So no. So it's a particular value proposition. But we're very clear about it. And we thank people, we're very grateful we thank people. Anyway,

Dave JonesDave Jones

that's your the there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on LinkedIn this morning about the Atlantic newspaper, magazine, the Latin magazine, and how they became they went from basically sucking wind in huge debt to now they're profitable. And that I liked, the whole article is very good. Lots of good stuff in there. Now, of course, their subscription based thing it's not they're not value for value. But one of the bests, like I said is ultimately this is not

these things aren't different. You're just you just have to realize that when you're when you go subscription based, and you don't go value for value. When you go under subscriptions. You You're just leaving, you're leaving money on the table. I think a lot. A lot. Yes, I think a lot too. And you're in and you're also not fully respecting your listeners.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Look at Leo with the twit network with the club twit. He's so close yet he can't bring himself to ask him to join Club twit. And you'll know it's $7 You know, and then it says that you can give more. No, no, everybody's in club to it. Support he would he would be okay. If he just he can't because he can't get over the asking part. And yeah, there'll be people that email you or post on on X or whatever and say you're begging for money. Okay, yeah, that's fine. No, all right.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Well, this this the one quote I liked the most in that Atlantic article said. Their editor in chief said we believe as an almost ideological and idealistic notion that we make something worth by Yes. But it's it basically he said they went from just begging for advertising revenue by

Adam CurryAdam Curry

by creating lots of output because that's what you have to do. And

Dave JonesDave Jones

then and then and then being a slave to the CPM and to Google to Google's ad search for me, basically, from that to a different mindset of we think that our stuff is

Adam CurryAdam Curry

valuable. Yes, there it is. There it is.

Dave JonesDave Jones

You know, and that's, that's, it has worked. Yeah, they're, they're profitable again, and they're not they're not about on the you know, the verge of bankruptcy. You know, from that thing, but I think this is a you know, if I can, if I can sort of swerve swerve us into talking about all the stuff that song about pod verse and downloads versus listens, and then sharing sure

Adam CurryAdam Curry

the floor is yours.

Dave JonesDave Jones

If I don't die first, don't die now. Okay. Let's see. Well, okay. I've got a hadn't had an opening statement. But now I have a pre a pre opening statement. Thanks to as you would say, there is no there are no coincidences in the kingdom. No, sir. Mo pod. I don't know if you saw this. I did not. This article from from Bloomberg from Ashley Carmen. So it came out she wrote this article yesterday saying that

she she had breast she's the one that broke a while back. This in game mobile ads, downloads stuff.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Oh, the game stuff. Yeah,

Dave JonesDave Jones

yeah. In Game mobile ads that would trigger a download. Well, it's, she kind of she broke a similar story yesterday. Then it's, it's about some a similar type of scan for this company mo pod is they the way this works is they'll give you if you sign up for the seat, this kind of secret service that they don't actually advertise, they go, they they they talk they contact you about it evidently and say hey, we can do this for you. But it's not a product that you can see on

their website or any anywhere publicly. They will ask for a $5,000 minimum spend. They will put, they will put ads into games. to incent that basically is we'll reward gamers with in game stuff like an in game purchase, like an in game reward. If they click through the ad to Apple podcasts and follow a podcast. They click through it opens Apple podcasts to a particular podcast, they click the Follow button. Then they go back to the game and they get rewarded for the

follow. So they're essentially incentivizing gamers in in game to go follow a podcast even if they have no intention, or no interest in this podcast whatsoever. They're just doing it so they can get a new skin for their character or whatever.

So evidently, this is this is a big deal, she said. Mo pods assistance can be seen all over Apple's podcast charts over the past week and a half identified at least 37 podcasts being advertised through in game rewards provided by Mo pod, including shows from prominent creators and networks like wondering Netflix iHeartMedia limonada and Alex Cooper have call her daddy. In fact, the top 50 shows in the US. Yes of the top 50 shows in the US spotted yesterday, I saw nine that had

been promoted in game. So 20 nearly 20% of the top 50 shows are using this. This trick to boost their download numbers. Yeah. Yeah, the these are scams. Yes. It's just Chesterton. Okay, so is I'm reading heretics right now. But GK Chesterton, it is talking about the Irish author George Moore, he used this phrase that Moore was in a perpetual state of temporary honesty. This is the this is the podcast metrics industry, a

perpetual state of temporary honesty. I mean, even so you can say even when a download is this is again, this is my pre opening statement, even when a download is legitimate. It comes from the app. A human being opened Apple podcast, tap to the Follow button. They did all of that. It still bogus downloads as listens, in any form is a lie. It's just fundamentally a lie. It you know, the in pretending it's anything else is is dishonest. Yes, you add best fog. Yeah. So now for my opening statement.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Would you like some reverb?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Just kidding. Yeah, yes. I want to take a drink.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Could you give it the name of that book again that you're reading? Oh, heretics

Dave JonesDave Jones

by GK Chesterton is only good ahead and lay my cards upon the cards on the table at front and

Adam CurryAdam Curry

you want to want to explain the issue so people know what we're talking about. Okay. Opening statement. You have five minutes. Oh, God. I'm doing my C span Senate hearing. Reclaiming my time? Yep.

Dave JonesDave Jones

The the issue that I'm talking about is a couple of two or three weeks ago, I forgot how, how many again now. But pod pod versus pod verse there embedded webplayer came under fire from some people on podcast index dot social, for auto download for auto downloading on page load. Essentially what what Mitch was doing is he had the audio html5 tag attribute on the embedded player set to preload equals metadata. So that he could get the length of the episode.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And the reason if I can just interject my understanding the pod verse, embeddable player is for clips. And instead of chopping up a clip of making a new file, you load that web player, it then looks at the entire length knows the timecode goes right to it. So when you hit play, it'll start playing the podcasts at that point in the file. That's what I understood. So it's, it's not just a listen to my whole podcast in this player. It's specifically for clips. Yes.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Okay. Yes, that's exactly right. So that that was the argument that Mitch said, Mitch, Mitch made. So in Mitch, Mitch mitches arguments, he needs an app, he needs accurate audio duration, you know, to for that slider on the page, to determine you know, where the clips are going to land. And to make a nice user experience, our RSS durations, and feeds the time, the times that are put into the duration tag that attends duration tag, those are those are completely out of I

mean, they're horrible. They're inaccurate. As soon as you put in a dynamically inserted ad, they're, they're automatically wrong. Now, you, anybody who parses RSS feeds, or has in the past knows that these durations cannot be trusted, that at best, they're 20% reliable. So therefore, pre loading the audio on the page to get the time to get the eight the length. If that's what you want in your product, you want that that length to be accurate on the screen. That's the only way you

can do it. And it's it's the only way you can do it rely on h and HTML provides a mechanism to do that. So there's simply no other way using modern tooling to know the actual duration of a remote audio content without retrieving the whole thing. That you that's just a fact. You have a if you have a product if you have a product that really needs that information to be correct, you don't have any other options. So like the in a primary reason for that is because of these dynamically

inserted ads. So So and that's also the primary argument against pre loading the audio is because it messes up download stats. So you have the you have the advertising arm of the of podcasting, creating a problem through dynamic add in Session II messing up the duration, and then bitching at people for using the only available workaround for a problem they themselves created. So you screw up the duration, then you gripe IT people for pre loading the audio so they can get the

accurate duration that you screwed up. Here's an here's an idea, solve your own damn problem while stopped demanding other people do it for you and mess their product up so that you can get stats that you made it hard to get in the first place.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

My objection to the whole conversation was twofold. One is the notion that advertising is keeping this whole industry afloat. No, that's not true. hosting companies and podcast app developers are keeping podcasting alive. That there is some unwritten contract suddenly that I'm unaware of as the inventor, co inventor of podcasting, I'm also unaware of this. There is no contract, there is no unwritten contract contracts or contracts. You

know, go ask Ukraine, go ask, go ask Russia. If a contract that is unwritten is a real contract when we said oh, don't worry, we won't bring NATO in any closer to you. And then we didn't put it in the contract. And that we literally the United States says it wasn't we didn't write it down the contract. So we can do whatever we want. It's not a contract. And advertising came in later. And it may be keeping your industry afloat, but it is not keeping podcasting afloat.

Dave JonesDave Jones

It's like banner is so this, this reminds me of banner ads that started allowing JavaScript to execute on the page. And then, you know, shocker. Browsers start getting hijacked with with with, with spyware. By doing, you know, paid shenanigans. And then the advertising industry griping that people are using ad blockers, or ads that are ads that when they don't load, successfully break the page layout where you can't even read the page and you have to keep

reloading like this. This is you know, fix your if you're the advertising industry, fix your broken tech first, then come back and let's tall, you know, anything else is just is just griping. Really, Mitch, in in Mitch said. Mitch said he said from the beginning he said I have no problem with people tossing pod verse out of all their stats charts across the board, or podcasters blocking pod verse altogether. You know, he's like, if you if you don't want to be in if you don't want

us in your stats, that's fine. Just take us out. I don't care. It's no sweat off my back. We're an open source program software. We don't take. We don't have any sort of, we're not obligated to anybody financially, I don't care. At that point. The case is closed

Adam CurryAdam Curry

as the legendary John C. Dvorak once said, it's no

Dave JonesDave Jones

sweat off my balls. Whoever wants to get his blog, pod verse is problem. So creator is respected. If the Creator doesn't want that shows to show up, they can just block pod verse is everything is fine. Stats. Stats can just be they can be gamed, as we've as we've seen time after time after time, you know, with

Adam CurryAdam Curry

and where's the outrage today? Where's the outrage about mo pod? I didn't hear any outrage. Where's the outrage? About apple? The only outrage we hear about Apple's iOS 17 is well they really screwed up the industry. Yeah, because it was phony baloney. And we all knew it. We knew it because of the dare I say glitch. That happened several versions earlier that dropped everybody's stats by pretty much the same as what is now done by intent.

Dave JonesDave Jones

What what do podcast apps get from these charts anyway? Nothing is always apple. The charts are always the same Apple and Spotify with these nice clean lines up at the top and then everybody else basically clumped into a rainbow at the bottom of the chart that you came to discern. And

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm colorblind I can't look at these charts and I have no idea what who's who anymore.

Dave JonesDave Jones

It might be it might as well just be labeled other you know, just for everybody else we lived through. We lived through Apple Core media for you years and years. Yeah, I mean, the iOS 17. Download pocalypse, which nobody saw come in the you know, I heart and now mo pod in game advertising scams that nobody understood until they were broke until a news article was written about him. But trust us as long as the 50 most used podcast app, web embed stops pre loading, then everything's fine.

You know, I mean, like it's this

Adam CurryAdam Curry

standard? Well, no, I think it's something else. And I understand it. So and I'll give them this. It's frustration that is vented at an easy target. Because the frustration is the frustration of not having a reliable listening statistic, knowing when someone heard an ad, and all these other things that affect downloads, it was just an easy way to vent frustration. And that's how I saw it. And that's why I stayed

out. But when I heard about some respect the Creator respect the Creator, well, why don't you take out your silence, skipping and yours and your speed button? That's not respecting my art.

Dave JonesDave Jones

But we all use ad blockers in our web browser. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

But that's not respecting anybody.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Like it really it but we, but we, you know, we understand this is messing up clean stats for creators on the web. But we do it anyway, we justify it through all kinds of various arguments, some of which are valid, but we use a different standard in podcasting, you may expect apps to never mess up stats on behalf of their user experience. Yeah, you know, even though we do and in our browsers all day long, you know, we we say, well, this, you know, this, this website is

just it's just unreadable without an ad blocker. Okay, well, maybe, maybe the same thing applies to podcasting. You're, you don't get to this spot. Podcasting does not get to be a special snowflake. Baker has anything done

Adam CurryAdam Curry

wrong, we basically have an ad blocker, it's called the 32nd. Skip. We have that's what everyone uses it for. Everybody knows is bogus. The industry knows that everybody knows it. This is why in advertising, we say half of my advertising budget is working. I just don't know which half because you don't

Dave JonesDave Jones

tons of email. Clients now block tracking pixels. Oh, yeah, for sure. That's not respecting the creators, quote unquote. I mean, we I just the the podcasting measurement side of things. They're uncom, sometimes completely unreasonable. They expect podcasting to be treated completely different than the west of the way we treat the internet. Like Marco. Marco, started ignoring prefixes a

while back. And the reason he did it, he reversed it. But the reason he started doing that, in overcast, was because some of these prefixes were getting added to Black Hole lists. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And it was growing up. Yeah. screwing up the whole. Okay. Yeah, that's all right. Add. Okay. Stop talking about add, yeah, I speak dog. Yeah.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And so like something something like charitable would get on an ad blocker list. And now all of a sudden, overcast download fails.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Well, this is also what screwed up the twit network. If you read what Lisa Laporte wrote, which I can't, because she blocked me. Where she says everybody has their own ad tech. And then you have, you know, 15 different prefixes and trackers, and then all of a sudden one of them breaks and you lose everything.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, exactly. And that, it, it he reversed that decision and stopped doing that. But that's not the important part. The principle is that he, of what he did, is that he chose what his ie shows what was best for his customer first, like so. advert, you know, ad supported ad supported podcasters have a customer. And that customer is the advertiser. That's right. That's who they sell to. That's why advertisers are called buyers. That's right. The advertiser is buying what the

podcaster is selling. App developers also have a customer, that customer is the listener. That's who they sell their product to. Only a small percentage of active podcasts are supported by advertising. Advertising is not in any way, a necessary component of podcasting. It's just the business plan of some podcasters. Amen. And you cannot expect an app developer to break their user experience for the their customer, so that a small percentage of podcasters can not

have any problems. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way. It's not realistic. It's not fair. And an add on, there's no argument that's going to convince me otherwise. I mean, using downloads as a listening statistics as as listener statistics, it's always been a mess. It's always had a limited lifespan, it's going to fail. Ultimately, it's already every time one of these big things happens when you know, like his house, I was 17. Or in game at any one time one of these big

issues happens. The pawn the the real download numbers keep going down and down and down. And we look back and we say, Oh, we never we never knew that that was happening.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

What was gambling going on?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah. You know, I agree with with people like James and John Spurlock that not preloading gives cleaner stats, I agree. In, in the, in the absence of a compelling reason not to sit in preload to none, is a courteous thing to do I get I agree with that. You're, you're you're just gonna kind of play nice, so to speak. And I don't want to ignore that. But Mitch has said, he has a compelling reason what to him is a compelling reason. And that's, that's enough. It's the case,

case closed. People on both shots. So people on both sides of that equation, the the advertising side, in the listener side, people on both sides should do what's best for their own customers. And in advertisers, in my opinion, advertisers need to advocate for a better standard. In podcast app developers should code the best user experience that go if you're an advertiser, and you're dependent on download numbers, and you're all up in arms because it because they're not

accurate. You're barking up the wrong tree. You need to go advocate for a better standard.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Well, there's one on the horizon. And I like it. I like it a lot for a whole bunch of reasons, because I think it can help everybody. And this is where I take it to the high note. Get us out of the pit. That's right. I'm crawling out of the hole with you Dave. You grabbed my hand. I'm gonna eat some chocolate. All right, you eat some chocolate by the way. There's a severe cocoa shortage. Oh,

Dave JonesDave Jones

as yesterday ration this. Oh, you better hurry is a little bit of a big piece. I mean, it has has easier.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

activity streams, I think is a dynamite idea. I really love the idea. I've listened to the podcast. I've researched it. Please stop telling me it's a W three standard, therefore it's the best bullcrap. It's. I'm so tired of that argument. The donate three. See, I'm already I'm already in SAMSA Thea, Bharti and I like the idea

Dave JonesDave Jones

that what is that? The most important thing about selling is knowing when to stop selling. Yes.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Don't Don't sell the app I've already bought in to

stop, don't sell beyond that. What is it selling beyond the go beyond the sale, whatever it is. The activity pub, I'm really convinced mainly because of its adoption, its maturity, its adoption, I'd say there's millions of people who have a mastodon account, ergo, millions of people who have an activity pub account that can be used right now today, to do the very first thing, the simplest thing in the world, which some apps have already pretty much implemented, which is comments.

And I'm not going to call it cross app comments for a reason, just comments. And it has everything built into it that we want, including them moderation. You know, the full maturity of what Mastodon has shown us how activity pub can work, follow, you know, like all these different things, it's all in there. We have a unique opportunity to blow everybody out of the water as a group by making it comments that show up

on every single app. And by the way, I understand activity streams in activity pub, we already have some activity streams they are follow, like boost. Comment. We already have the bridge with the podcast index. So we have all the elements set we have the route post concept which we which we've been doing for two years on this show, and I do them

every single show I always put in a route comment. And you can see how that works on podcast index you can see go to comments click on it, you can drop down you see the comments, but we have never done to my knowledge Well, except for an embedded page like an iframe on curio caster is the EU would you like to comment on this episode? Login with your activity pub account Mastodon, the fill in the blank. Mastodon won't be the simplest for people I've heard of mastodon? Or would you like

to create one? Once we have that, then we can immediately out of the gate, as a group show something that goes way beyond the people who are using Apple and Spotify, they'll feel left out? Oh, I can't comment on all I can comment I see this guy's at the end, you'll get FOMO is part of it. Yes. Now, as a part of this, we can start to build. So before we get all jacked about all the activity, stream verbs and everything, if we can

just get this one thing going. And I don't think there's a single concern that any developer can have about dealing with comments. Because now it's completely up to the Creator. Respect the Creator. As to how that's managed, moderated. You could remove the whole post, there's a whole bunch of things you can do. Thank you. Once we get that going, then you can add

all kinds of things such as bliss and time. And when people are comfortable, and then of course, you need to be transparent and say, Would you like to add your listen time, here are the benefits to you, here's the benefit to your podcasts or that you're listening to. Now all of a sudden, we can give some real data, some real statistics, to, to advertisers to podcasters, whatever you want, because it will be it'll be transparent, it will be managed by the

podcaster. And the listener. I think true fans already has this built in where you can, you can determine what you want what you want to turn on or off. Not Not everybody will do it. But I think a lot of people will if you ask appropriately. And you will initially have a blended statistic with your downloads or whatever you want. But over time, I think you will see that that is a and this is where the industry can step in. The industry can step in and say yeah, this is a good idea. Even

Apple could do it. Even Apple, they won't, but they could. And now all of a sudden we are 20 apps all doing this. And now we're forced to be reckoned with because not just one app, we're just you know, some download stats, but we can get a pretty good idea with a blend of downloads, etc. So if people actually heard your pitch, your ad, your whatever, I wouldn't mind knowing exactly where people listen, I have those statistics. I know a subset, a subset of people listens to

shows and I can see oh, this is where they drop off. This is where they came back. I mean, it's it's enough data for me. It's not I'm not looking for CPMs. But we can do a lot of stuff. And this is the future. Now the biggest problem we have is noster because there's so many cycles being wasted on

noster. To in essence create the same thing. All I can think of is to ask you, is there a way that we can bridge noster with verbs into activity pub, so that people who are really setting I'm looking at you, Oscar, people who are really bought into Nasir for for whatever reason, which is fine. Can we bridge the activity verbs the verbs into activity pub, so that we can welcome them? welcome that development. Because there's a lot to be said for for having your Nasir identity.

There's a lot to be said for it. But when it comes to the maturity and the adoption of activity pub, you're a million miles away. Worse, you're 10 years away. So if we can figure that out, I think it'd be great because I'd love to see the cycles of people like Oscar coming into doing this and participating in it because without them it's just going to be harder.

Dave JonesDave Jones

So you have been handsome Hold on discussions with people about about various things as we always do, and I'm not that bothered about the like, do you like Jupiter broadcasting and fountain they're doing this live experiment where it's like live commenting on their show, basically an info chat room type of deal, like our, like IRC type of deal, but in but in like a web page, but then it's, but

it's through noster. And so I say through nostre, it's using the nostril protocol, but currently, fountains noster experimental relay is not public. So it's it's really just very much a beta alpha type experiment that they're doing now. Now Oscar said that he's going to open this up and make the fountain relay public. As soon as he gets it stable to where he feels like it's, it's ready to be to be pounded on a

little bit. And this, this doesn't bother me that much that on the nostril side of things, I'm not a nostril fan, but I'm not going to be pugnacious about it either. I mean, there's there is there's I'm looking for an A for an escape hatch out of the pugnacity of Dobbs,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Hairston firestop pugnacious definition ready and able to resort to force or violence. pugnacious. Okay, got it.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I think there's in general, too much of that between noster and everybody else on the planet. So I'm looking for

Adam CurryAdam Curry

this is the problem who's pugnacious,

Dave JonesDave Jones

all of us, we're all we're all combative about things. So I think if we is I'm not that bothered by what, by their experiment? Because I know that we can, we can just bridge it. Right, which is my question. Yes. And so that's, that was my long answer to your question. To which I think we can just Britt,

for any of these. Here's my mindset on things like this is like, any, there's always going to be these little silos of things that happen in I mean, let's let's be real noster there's millions of activity pub users, there's maybe 10,000, nostril users. Maybe. I mean, that's, that's might be a stretch already. I don't know. But it's very, very small, based on the numbers that I've seen. So there's always I consider nostre to be sort of like this proprietary thing over here.

But, but they are public. I mean, they have public relays. So we can bridge it. So if, if if Oscar wants to do his experiment over there with noster? You know, I don't mind writing some software that will pull that stuff out back into activity pub, it's already been done to the Moscow bridge. Exactly. We know it's doable, in in a, and I'm just thinking that there's always going to be these little things like that, for

instance. If you've been trying to think of an example, okay, for instance, if Buzzsprout wanted to have their have like their own in, in house, live chat, or, or rss.com wanted to have their own in house comments or whatever, that people could post back on to a podcasters web page. That might we could build a bridge for that. I'm not going to go to them and say, Well, you know, you have to do it this way. You have to do X protocol. Because like, they know I agree to be in their game plan.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

That's what that's where I started I said, can we bridge it because I just want to take the high road you took it to pugnacious?

Dave JonesDave Jones

No. You did use the P word.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Did you pulled out the P word man. Dang.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Let me like I just in general, I would like to calm down the you know, calm down all of that stuff and try to be because I know we can fix it with code. Monkey like you said we can we can fix it with code.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yeah, yeah, I

Dave JonesDave Jones

like that. I like that. Rather than rather than I think what made me soften

Adam CurryAdam Curry

on this is your good nature and your loving heart.

Dave JonesDave Jones

It is you knew he knew sweetie like it's like a like an acre and they'll look on the sidewalk in in you know in the spring you can just be step on any just squishes the what has softened me on this is I think I'll see and all the the Mitch pod verse stuff, animosity. You know I'm like well, rather than griping and saying, you know, you're gonna do it this way I'm gonna block you. Like, rather than doing that we can say, you know, we'll just build some software and fix it.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Right.

Dave JonesDave Jones

You know, we'll work around, we'll work around other people's proclivities of what they want to do and will bring that content out of their stuff back into back into the broader thing that we're participating in or that we believe in.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm all in I love it. Yeah, shall we play song?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh man, that'd be great.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

This is what I chose today is a song that I heard on this week in Bitcoin I figured what better way to show the power of music and podcasting and to play it here as well two weeks in Nashville This is moneymaker boy

Unknown

gotta go rounds I won't let this go No I am not your money you really get a message that good drugs that's true. Well let this go no I'm not your money you don't know me so tell me how you like yourself that this goal no I am not your money so sick and tired of this CNC what you want but I won't ask me I want this goal. No, I'm not your money look this go. I won't I won't. I won't ever let this go.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

That's how you start a Friday. Wow,

Dave JonesDave Jones

that's a that's a good song. Isn't that

Adam CurryAdam Curry

though speaking of pugnacious, pneus yeah, there's a lot of pugnacious pneus in the music value for value world against wave lake. And I would ask everybody to think about what you're doing there. Because the best way to show that music in podcasts and how it really works well is to not boycott artists that happened to be on wave lake.

Dave JonesDave Jones

So I didn't know that was high. This this is a lot of pugnacious,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

pneus. And you're hurting the artists first of all. And second of all, the more you do that, the more isolation there is, where as I love showing everybody including the artists on wave Lake and they know how to speak to artists that they have a vibe going, you can't stop it. It's like tick tock. You know, they wouldn't have to ban it in the United States. If they could compete against it. Sometimes just you can't do that. Just the if something catches a vibe and

people use it. Don't fight in, show them love. Show them love and they will come running to you.

Dave JonesDave Jones

With we need to we need to get rid of the pugnacious pugnacious proclivities.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

liberties oh man to PS

Dave JonesDave Jones

this Yeah, no, don't don't don't boycott people. That's this

Adam CurryAdam Curry

now, but there's also just a vibe of verbiage guys, no good, but you know, they approaching it from a different perspective. I mean, look at what happened with with Libsyn. Because we all bits lips, and now they they're now that they hardly want to do anything, because you guys are mean your bullies?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Seriously, which, which I thought was interesting, because what we've been told is that the reason that we they weren't doing it was because there was no support in the apps. Yeah. But now it's now that they're supporting the abs. It's like, well, it's just really because you're mean. Yeah. So I've never been mean, we've met with them. Yeah, plenty. I mean, we've met we've met with them twice. And there's

Adam CurryAdam Curry

a lot there's a lot going on in telegram channels and all kinds of places where people talk smack and then

Dave JonesDave Jones

this is that is that is something I think maybe people don't know, there's a lot of these. There's a lot of these. There's a lot of secret Slack channels in the podcasting world where certain people hang out, you know, like sort of the gatekeepers of podcast and the podcast industrial complex, hang out and like talk about stuff and talk about other people. But that's that's the thing. I'm sure there's lots of things being said in these channels that we're not aware of, because

even if invited I refuse to be a part of that kind of stuff. I agree.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yeah. Should we thank a few people Dave so I can get you out kind of on time. Oh, yes. So we are value for value. You've heard all about it. I don't need to explain it. But here's our Ask and our Thank you segment in the same way we package it in one it's amazing. It's a twofer. It is a twofer. Thank you very much anonymous for sending 3333 for the jam in tune you just heard that always helps. The artists will love that. Sir Brian have London 11,948 sets that is a nice

contribution and of course it is an Israeli freedom boost. He says my entire extended family has no idea what the potholder was doing in that songs video. Do you know about this pot holder thing?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, this is something that that Brian said video that Brian sent with a guy had a he had a I did not know this was called an oven glove. Yes. I just in the south we just call everything a pot holder. It's just anything that keeps your hand from getting burned. I think

Adam CurryAdam Curry

oven mitts in the UK have an MIT

Dave JonesDave Jones

oven mitt. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cotton

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Gin row a duck's 2222 says You're welcome both. Thank you. Blueberry with the boob boost 808 Dave really been enjoying REO sets. They've been tearing it up out there. The lighting designer we've been working with toured Elvis Ozzie during Diary of a madman Rick James too many to name. Tune in next Monday because I've got an interview recorded with him. We also be interviewing Ryan Oh, caught lead singer for the 12

rods. April Fool's night is Pax. Yes, we will be willing gonna have blueberry on the show next week, I

Dave JonesDave Jones

believe. That's right. I love REO Speedwagon. They're a great band.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Then they're still out there. Apparently. I Can't Fight This Feeling anymore. Right 1701 from Brian X minger, he says finally able to listen live. Well. Thank you very much. He's listening in a podcast guru by the way. I just wanted to say we had we were talking about episode words.fm Man, I've been using that I love

Dave JonesDave Jones

it. It even us it's my tweet now it

Adam CurryAdam Curry

even works for live. Oh yeah, if you look at

Dave JonesDave Jones

the AI No, that's what a tweet. Oh yeah, you know I used to have all the different links in there for our live show and I now just have that

Adam CurryAdam Curry

episodes.fm And it has the podcast apps do live it's fantastic. Yeah, I love it. It's got an outstanding product that was assumed to be bought by someone no doubt.

Dave JonesDave Jones

It will be bought in

Adam CurryAdam Curry

3333 from Chad F from boosted in from pod verse Dred Scott 1234 So what is Dave saying that size does matter. Okay. 3330 That was from pod verse EB chat F since 3333 from curio caster, he says. We all know Korean the keeper is popular because of Tina, aka the keeper aka the talent. Why yes. Why? Yes. You're

Dave JonesDave Jones

just the manager.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm just managers. Producer producer. Yeah. 10,000 SATs from San Seth Sam Sethi coming in from true fans. He's in Los Angeles right now by with I thought was very funny. Both he and and James are appalled by the state of the Los Angeles airport and downtown Los Angeles. Yeah, why do you think everyone moved to Texas? They ruined the state.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I got I got a an Uber a few months ago from some from this lady. And I was talking about something about I just gotten back from Dallas, I think in is that what it was? I can't remember anyway. But I brought up gas prices and she was like, she was like, Man, you don't know anything. She's like I just got she said I'm moved here from A to Birmingham from Los Angeles during COVID. Oh, yeah. And she was like gas was like $7 a gallon. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

There's a lot a lot wrong with Los Angeles. Yeah. And

Dave JonesDave Jones

I asked her I'm like what, you know, why did you leave? She was like, I couldn't live there anymore. It's just she was like it was just a hellhole. Yeah, too

Adam CurryAdam Curry

expensive and a hellhole. So Sam says next week, my booths will appear in your social interact tag. All right. Looking forward. Nice. Okay. And another 10,000 from Sam from true fans. One click Apple Google Pay to SATs wallet is now live. One click Apple Pay. Apple. Yeah, he's

Dave JonesDave Jones

an app in app purchases. Some stats. Oh,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

excellent. App. That's a great

Dave JonesDave Jones

way we got Sam coming on on let me see

Adam CurryAdam Curry

the 19th I think the 19th. Yes.

Dave JonesDave Jones

He'll give gives the breakdown, right.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

For seven striper boost from hard hat boost and Happy Easter. Yes, Good Friday. Happy Easter to y'all. Indeed. dribs kappa Jesus went to happy Jesus 1234 He does it twice. And he says boosting the heart out sorry. 12 year old brain had to do it. That's right. We see them we had cold McCormick, the row of ducks. 20 to 22 just watched the presentation from the

Patreon CEO at South by Southwest. He literally describes podcasting 2.0 as the future of how the platform will function for creators, but centralized we are early but so from the future. Yes, indeed. We are. And then too late booths coming in or one late booths coming in. Whoa. Eric, our dash podcast. 80,000 SATs well that deserves 20 is Blaze only Impala boosting for a possible hot database dashboard segment soon. Yes, I had it on the list. We ran out of time, unfortunately.

Any initial feedback on the over the top podcast index, duplicate dashboard. initial feedback, love it.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, I've got it pulled up on my browser and we just didn't get there to talk about it. Yeah, I don't want to give it short shrift.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

No, no, no, no short shrift. We're not none of that. All right, Dave Europe?

Dave JonesDave Jones

No, he pitched him in one reading. Paper we got a $15 from Sebastian PITINO Lang and no note. But thank you. Thanks. And we also got right into the wire up Beats Music podcast and it's $3.33 through PayPal and he says just to Thanks for doing the boardroom with great conversations about the 2.0 verse. Enjoy these cookbooks that you can turn back into Bitcoin at your leisure go podcasting. Thank you

Adam CurryAdam Curry

very much. So crayon. Love it, brother. Yes.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Let's see what we got. I guess it was a great

Adam CurryAdam Curry

name by the way. Salty crayons a great DJ name. I love that. That is everybody's LT cray on here Friday afternoon. My daddy wasn't Beatle is better

Dave JonesDave Jones

than James Andrews. Born DJ. I'm

Adam CurryAdam Curry

gonna go look for some air checks of James Andrews.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Andrew grommet ducks 2222 from app. The app is wherever Wherever I think this must be a test boost. I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

think you have to just say wherever. And I heard Andrew is going to be on the pod news weekly review soon. So that'd be great. I'm looking forward to hear and we should have him on our show too. And

Dave JonesDave Jones

Andrew says, Go podcasting.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

That's right brother go podcasting.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Get gene been since the boost, he says, interesting take on a classic song that's just for last week's song left to know how they handled the rights side of things. That's first and on the dock of the bay, I think.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yes. Well, I don't know long answer, but the answer is, it's a borderline case. It only works if you believe that. Now let's take the streaming out of it. If we're streaming, we're technically broadcasting we're tech the game violation. If I put a song into a podcast, I need to have permission from the owner of the master. And that master owner needs to have paid for a number of copies being made of that song. Which is impossible to know impossible to know. And, and I've had many

conversations with people about this. It's a very gray area. And honestly, I'm not going to do it again. I really no, no, it's too It's too risky for me.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, well, yeah. And I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

don't want a waiver they could get in trouble they can get in trouble for allowing this anyway. But

Dave JonesDave Jones

that's up to now. I will want to I do want to say a waiver Lake is being good about they. There's people trying to post stuff as usual, as you would imagine people are trying to post copyrighted stuff to their to their site, and I see them taking that stuff down. Oh, yeah. Good. So they are policing their system. Good. Which is good to see. Jean been sent a notice 1313 37 Cast Matic he says if Apple ignores a tag in their namespace, and I don't think the podcast index should

honor it, either. That's blog referring to the blog. And

Adam CurryAdam Curry

when I've already done that, right, we're not ignoring it.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh, no, we're not ignoring it yet. I'm just trying to I'm waiting. So James reached out to Apple to get a comment on whether or not they what their official stances. So we've been waiting to hear back on that good. Jean been another note 2223 casts medic, he says I don't think podcast apps need to have activity pub instances. They can have users that have users authenticate to external instances just like any Mastodon

client does. For users without an activity public count already, the podcast app can guide users through creating one I agree.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I agree. That is absolutely the way to go. And it's

Dave JonesDave Jones

it's easier on the app because they don't have to do the operations have to deal with it. Up in 1984 4000 SAS through fountain he says if Apple is a monopoly with a 60% market share, and we should be breaking up the two party monopoly system with Democrats or Republicans. I'm a Linux and Android user. I hate the entire apple ecosystem. And I side with apple on this one. The government did not have a case against Microsoft in that case still had more merit than this

apple case. Good point. Yep. Anonymous. Seto Richards. 1111. Enjoy this episode, gentlemen. Well, thank you. Thank you. Ron. It's bigger. Oh, we just talked about Ryan 85 SATs through. CT cast. ematic. He says great recording. I guess

Adam CurryAdam Curry

that's Thank you. I hit record. It worked. Great recording. Yep.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh, Dave Jackson. pocket for Hall of Fame podcast. 2222. Your cast thematically says showing booster grants to Tim. Tim Putra. At Podcast Movement. I loved your in James. Presentation. Tell puto you're in James presentation. Okay. I loved your video, I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

guess. How do you spell puto? PRT? UPUTTRETT? Are a who is Tim? Pune?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Pune? pooter.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

He is. He's a podcaster. Yes. Okay. That's right.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Well, thank you, Dave Jackson, appreciate your brother. Come out. We're gonna make sure that we have I gotta make sure I didn't. I don't have stragglers. I didn't have a straggler. Okay. Morris podcast. 2100 says, Oops, I started a post delimited trend. I repent. To quote Michael Jordan, stop it. Get some help. Thanks. Thanks, Gary. Yeah, and get calm. WooCommerce. So yeah, we got the delimiter where I lost him. Oh, here's your blogger 20 1000s through fountain. Wow.

He says, howdy Christians, Dave and Adam. Although, although I'm personally agnostic, I want to extend my best wishes to you for a joyful Easter, a holiday commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's akin to how podcasting two point O has rejuvenated the world of podcasting. Additionally, I invite your listeners to explore my cartoons at WWW dot CSB dot lol yo CSB.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Thank you see you The yeah it's Jesus Super Bowl. It's what it is

Dave JonesDave Jones

Jesus Super Bowl. I like you know, Jesus, you know kind of like podcasting to point out

Adam CurryAdam Curry

exactly the same thing. Yes, thank you.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh wait, we got some some one please.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

What are you doing? You're walking away from the line.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I got the I got JD wadded up my monthly list before I was where I was ready for even ready, monthlies. We got Jordan Dunnville $10 Dred Scott to Bruce Wayne to podcasting. $15 Michael Kimber. $5.33 and Pedro gonna call this $5 Now I'm gonna actually do it for real. All

Adam CurryAdam Curry

right, thank you all very much for supporting podcasting 2.0 the podcast but of course, you really supporting the entire project, which includes everything that's running, everything is running and liquidity. I had some problems opening up channels to a couple people I'm not quite sure what happened but still here hit me up Adam at podcast at Adam at podcast index dot social and I will open up a channel to you. I think Chad F might still need one. So hit me

up again, brother and I'll open that for you. We use that all for liquidity, everything that goes into the node and thank you go to podcasts index.org at the bottom to read donate buttons, one for your Fiat fund coupons through Pay Pal, the other one for tally coin for your on chain? I don't know we should probably remove that. And button is once again, no one has used it. No one has used it. And we really appreciate you for supporting podcasting. 2.0

Dave JonesDave Jones

Did you see the hedgehog? protocol layer two protocol? I heard

Adam CurryAdam Curry

about it. The first thing I thought was, oh, is that something we could use?

Dave JonesDave Jones

It it actually looks pretty rad. Because

Adam CurryAdam Curry

you can you can send a payment. And the other person doesn't have to they accept it later. Is that what I understood?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, it's, it's you it's using layer, it's using layer one. It's basically it's using a thing inside of normal layer one bitcoin scripting, to do a sort of loose channel, where you can send somebody where everything where you can, you can basically just send a payment. So it's like lightning, send a payment, but it's not broadcast until the channel quote unquote, closes. But then there's this. But there's a an in script function where you could revert back where you can

revert the payment with a time lock. If it's not accepted, if it's not accepted. So you don't have to actually have an online channel. So

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Oh, cool. So it's kind of is it invoice list? So you don't have to have an invoice first?

Dave JonesDave Jones

I believe so. I think you just need to name a bitcoin address. Yeah. Pretty nice. And I love it. Me and Alex. Yeah, when we announced we're talking about as I mean, you could actually do this. It's it's protocol. It's sort of like Wire Protocol Independent. So you don't have to actually, it could go over any

Adam CurryAdam Curry

protocol don't even actually don't even need to be connected,

Dave JonesDave Jones

I guess. Yeah. You could do it over email. Or, or like you could do it over you could have you could have you could have like a lightning channel over XMPP Wow. Over hive. Wow. No, no. Yes, yes.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm gonna send you some stats through hive. There you go.

Dave JonesDave Jones

There's this there's this. There's like a supporting wire protocol. That's called like what is it? I forgot the name burrito. It's some other animal things like this. This is anthropomorphic menagerie of terms within your language today

Adam CurryAdam Curry

your language today is off the chain man. I'm loving all these I'm learning words.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Words I guess it's too much I can't keep track of all this. All these terminologies like they try to get hedghog like whatever, man, but anyway, it's really cool. I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

would like to play with all right. All right, well, man, I wish I could pull that I so yes, I know you'd like to play with. Alright everybody. That's it for the board meeting episode number 173. Brother Dave, thank you so much, man.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, you too, man. I'm trying to mute button myself. I'm coughing my head off. I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

hear you. I hear you will feel better. Have a great weekend. And everybody out there in the boardroom. Thank you for joining us once again. Thank you for participating we back next Friday with another board meeting of podcasting 2.0.

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