Episode 172: Tantalizing Liquid

Oh, casting 2.0 for March 22 2024 Episode 172 tantalizing liquid Hey everybody, welcome once again, Friday is right. It is time for podcasting point oh the board meeting all the directors are in the board room it's time to look at the future of podcasting, whatever happened in the past and all the stuff that's happening right now because it

oh crap Hang on. I'll be right back

all right, ladies. Standby. He's gonna be here in just a minute. He's missed a day.

Jones No.

Oh, there he is. Just a day.

I got I got my paper. I forgot to lift my paper right next to the coffee. Oh, for lunch dropped my keys in my in my case, notes straight

into your studio into the Batcave ready to go and Oh, no. He

has a lot of sweaty I'm gonna get show D

did you get your your popcorn did you get your yet? You got your beef milkshake? I

got the milkshake. I got the base. No shape. I didn't get at it. No popcorn today. No, but I did get. Oh, we got a piece of chocolate and some yogurt. Sorry, I

did something wrong, too. Oh, boy. I'm sorry, people. I forgot. Yeah, we got to start showing her. No, but I do that. We have no time for that. I gotta I gotta hit the piping. Thank you. Okay, there we go. Okay, that should alert everybody that we're started now. It'd be like, Hey, man, you started without telling me.

I like I like how Eric just posts the tag. Here.

Like, what is he? Oh, I see it pending. Yeah, that's my mistake. There you go. Sorry about that.

Here. Let me make it easy for you. There's the XML tag fully formed. Yeah.

Just to let you know, hey, by the way, I just got to start off. I'm really happy today. I've discovered after many years of trying it. Thunderbird is awesome.

This Thunderbird is the thing that frustrates me every week. It's

so it just became awesome for me.

Oh, wait, okay, wait until it eats up 12 gigs of disk space and shuts your node down? Well,

well, you got to make sure that you know, you set your IMAP settings properly that you don't cache all of your email. What's great is when you which everybody loves which by the way is a default and is very bad. I'm gonna say that right up front.

True. My mind loves to compact your database. Yeah, it's it's a favorite thing.

I haven't gotten to that yet. The reason why it's here's the reason why I'm using an actually we've been using rain loop on my mind. It's, it's a web client on my on my next cloud, which I like a lot.

Or a mil. It's a

front end. It's basically an IMAP front end. But what I don't what it doesn't do well at all is GPG or PGP which I know I like open GPG. So encryption, and I don't know if we talked about this, but about two or three weeks ago, proton mail, which a lot of people use, and a lot of people who email me

And so you're saying that protonmail now has some way of like hooking into like a, like a directory of GPG keys.

Yeah, what they do is if they see if it if the system sees that you're sending to an email address that has a verified public key, and I verified my public key with the key server, then it automatically encrypts any outgoing email from proton mail to that to that recipient and I tested it with Mark avoid zero. And because I'm like, wait a

No, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

I mean, there's reasons why Gmail doesn't do that. Hello, three letter agencies, they don't really want to encourage any of that any of that nonsense going on.

And I have my I have my doubts about signal encrypted chat as well. Oh, oh, yeah. I don't know. That that one feels like there's a lot of reasons to make me think that that is not as secure as we think it is.

Well, it's also you know, your phone what's running on your phone? What's what is our screengrabs being done? I mean, that's what I always enjoy about a lot of these. A lot of the lightning the wallet apps is though explicitly turn off all

You get the widget and the little copilot Oh, yeah. Do you use it? Are you trying? Have you tried it out?

Oh, I tried it out right away, and it's sucked immediately. I'm like, I'm this thing? Because of course, what do you try it with? You try it with with a question that you know the answer to? Yes, if I were to ask you. What book has Jhansi Dvorak been working on for many years, but still not finished?

The vinegar? Exactly. Everybody

knows that. co pilot says Jhansi Dvorak has been working on a book titled online the book for many years, but it remains unfinished. And so I say Nope, it's a different one. And then it comes back. I apologize for the oversight. Thank you for your patience. The Unfinished book you're referring to is DeVore ag predicts John C. Dvorak co authored this book with me then I like. It was a book about liquid if I recall correctly. Oh, I apologize for the oversight of my previous

Give me a break, says says, Oh, crap, biggest load of made up horseshit.

Yeah, it's hallucinated on my butt right away. Right away.

It's too wordy. Like, okay, so

so wrong. I mean, even you know, you know the answer to this.

That's a given. That's a given. But like when, when you said what, what book has Jhansi DeVore? I've been working on forever and not finished? My response was the vinegar, bro. Of course. I don't need us. I don't need a soliloquy. Paragraph Yeah, exactly. You're gonna have to stop that. And what everybody wants. What everybody wants from a personal assistant, LLM enabled personal assistant, is they want the Star Trek ships computer experience. Hey, there

thinking about Hey, Bob, Bob. Hey, Bob.

What is? Is there anything wrong on the in on the index infrastructure right now? No, Dave, I don't see anything wrong. That's what you want. You don't want infrastructure is something that was coined a phrase that was coined in 1862 by so and so you don't want this a book? Well, here's what you want a quick, snappy, here's.

Yes, exactly. Now, what they do is they list all of the sources and of course, the sources for this is wiki Wikipedia. Home on Wikipedia, amazon.com and goodreads.com. Now Reddit hasn't started their licensing yet. Now, it was interesting when I said, Tell me about the value for value model of monetization. And it spit back a reworded version of value for value dot info and I know that because it says it right

No, no, not at all. Now you as Did you see the did you see the Nvidia? They've gone all in on the new they get their new chip? It's like the GE something.

Yeah. And it's, and the NVIDIA CEO is wearing leather jackets. Now, everyone's trying to be Steve Jobs.

Yeah, he's a super cool. Yeah.

Now, you as a as a manager of all things in for info info technology at your company. Are you allowing this nonsense on your on your system? This cope? I mean, it could be it could be scanning my drive for all I know, I don't know what it's doing.

Now, we we have, like most firms, we have internal policies about not using these things. Until Until the future like

the future is here. Yeah. But tomorrow never comes.

You can't you cannot put your stuff into this because you don't know where it's going. You mean, but basically, we just have a blanket restriction on all that stuff right now. Yeah, most companies have this is pretty much across the board. You can't use this unless it's built by inter in unless it's built by us internally. Right, you know, and so then you could use it, because then we know what's happening with the data and all that kind of thing. Which, which is Microsoft's play

It's already popping up on on Word. Use copilot.

Yeah, but the thing that like, my issue. Okay. I realized a couple of days ago, what one of the key issues here is for me? And I think not for me personally, but I think this is a real issue is that the problem with these MLMs is there they're not they do not set properly separate the data from the model. So So the algorithm, it's like the data and the data and the thing that generates the data is all one big blob. So like you have to train it, you can't say, Okay, look. Here's

why this is why it only works really well in certain instances my buddy Vic is selling this like hotcakes to help desk said phone banks companies that have you know 150 people answering phones customer service is great for that. Oh I'm sure they just got a monkey and that monkey will be gone soon enough once it kind of comes believable that you're hearing a human on the other end

record if you just record all of your all of your telephone support staff if you record all those calls Yeah, exactly six months and then feed it into an LLM. You can make a bot that would just be just spit this crap out like all day long. So

just so we don't become the new media show. I will say that I think what Todd would Todd has done with blueberry pie. I think that's what he's calling it. I think for process Is management, which Barry at pod home already had set up? I think that's, that's very useful. Agreed. Because,

bus. It's like the bus Bronco stuff. I mean, like this, it just makes things makes things easier. It makes me you know, it gives you a starting point. Yeah. Yeah. To go with and so that's good. Those are all good things.

And I like having 15 to 20 Humans competing to create art for the for our episode. If you go look at nogen art generator.com You'll see it for every episode, there's 20 different pieces. People are competing. That's humans. That's that's souls, souls with humor and insight and ideas. Yeah, a lot of them are using generated stuff, which usually gets skipped because just has that look. It has, it has got a slick

So, so and and soulless, and wrong. Yes. Like, just like, the DOJ isn't wrong. I don't know if you heard about the SLS listen to the coda radio, and they started talking about the Apple antitrust case.

John told me a little bit about it yesterday on the show, it sounded like his breakdown was their phones suck, and they're responsible for all the problems. And that's why we're suing them. Does that kind of summarize

this? I would sum it up like this. We don't like you. And so we're going to make ourselves feel better by suing you.

And why don't they like apple? What would an apple do wrong?

I don't know. They were there. And I say I say I don't know. And I'm being genuine. Because all the things that they all the examples that you're getting? Don't they're either untrue. Or they don't make any sense. Like they don't or they don't follow the narrative that they've laid out. So coder radio has the latest episode is is is worth a listen. They had a great overview of this. And excuse me, his pollen, this pollen? Yeah, yeah. But they had a great overview of

that. What do I know, Tim Wu from? Yeah, I know him. He's at Columbia

University. But he used to be in the Biden administration work. He He's what they're everybody's referring to him as the architect of their antitrust policy. He's like the guy. He's like the brain behind the operation of this.

Yeah, it's rings a bell? Yes. So he I probably heard about him on pivot where Kara Swisher thinks he's great. Probably.

This this, this would follow. That I thought Chris and Mike occurred radio had a really good take on this from they called this. Chris called this an emotional document.

Oh, well, that says it right there, doesn't it? Yeah.

The DOJ into you know, document that lists all the reasons why they're why they're bringing an antitrust lawsuit against Apple. They call it an emotional document this this is I believe this fully based on the way that this guy's talking. This is to give the end to give the end away. First. I think this is basically a I think I think this this administration specifically, but broader just a general thing that is happening in court and culture in academia and politics

there it is. And we knew you were leading up to something. Yeah, I got some clips. So this,

he lays it out. And you can hear what he says, like the trajectory of this. From the very beginning, when he says the reason they're doing it, the reason that they're sued is an interview on CNBC with Tim Wu, the reason why they're suing Apple is not because they have hard evidence of all these wrongs, is because it's part of an American tradition,

we idea I think, is to hold America's Best Companies feet to the fire, that if they're forced to compete, they get better, that dominant companies become stagnant. It's an American tradition. We did it with IBM, we did it with AT and T, we did it with Microsoft. And I'm saying that, you know, suing Microsoft ended up being the best thing for the tech industry. The theory is that no one disputes that Apple is a great phone, a great, great company. But you know, the law

I will say that when it comes to breaking companies up, it's always to the benefit of the incumbent company, and to the benefit of the shareholders, because that's what they're going after they want to break it up. They want to break something up. I mean, look, did it hurt Microsoft in the long run when they going after them for the browser? No,

no, no. So his, you know, the examples he gives are? He's like he said, in a citizen American tradition, basically Apple Europe. It's

your turn. Yeah, cuz we got to do some let's, we got to do our job over here. He

and He and the examples he gave were IBM, AT and T, Microsoft, IBM, IBM. We and the reason I'm talking about this is we you know, we talked about this a week or two ago, and they're talking about how house, how silly all of this antitrust nonsense is at least the American version of it. And IBM, IBM, they started the ante the DOJ started the antitrust case against IBM in 1969. Yeah. And it was eventually thrown out in 1982. Nothing happened. Right? That. So that's one

And we still have those kinds of incompatibilities. Yeah,

the Microsoft case was eventually settled out of court, because the judge said, this is this is you, you failed, you failed, you failed to prove your case. They settled out of court for basically some API concessions, and a committee of five people that would review the source code for five years. Like these cases that he gives are worse. They're all failures, sometimes explicit failures, others, like an 18. T is this is failures to produce the results. They said they would they would

hmm. That's not that's not that's not how that works. No,

Apple. Apple didn't want to put it on On Windows, Microsoft was begging them to put it on there because that gives them access to an entire humongous market. And

Microsoft even invested $500 million into creating office for the Mac via Steve Jobs. I remember Steve Jobs was announcing it. And Bill Gates came on behind him on a giant screen looking like his, his overlord from 1984.

Steve That's right.

And that's that's because that's the famous quote, where jobs that we have to get rid of this idea that in order for us to win, Microsoft has to lose. Yeah. And so he goes on to, you know, he tells this bogus in clip two, he tells this bogus Microsoft history, explain

how you think going after Microsoft was the best thing that could have happened for the tech industry? Because Bill Gates has said, it's the reason that they fell behind why the company lost out on on on going and having its own phone. Yeah, I mean, you brought up Europe and Japan, other countries just sort of leave their monopolist there. And after a while, a very vibrant competitive company becomes stagnant. They become less interested in innovation more interested in trying to

was a better search engine.

He said they had their own search engine. Why would they let Google when on their Explorer

is a guy who has no idea how the internet works? Did Microsoft

have a search engine in 1995 or four? No,

no, they bought something though, didn't they? Didn't they buy Infoseek or they bought something?

Well, that eventually became Bing. But I don't That was way after. That was way after the antitrust lawsuit stuff. Yeah. He's got his timeline completely wrong. He said they probably if we didn't let him go, and we hadn't done this, which again, the case was settled. For now for almost no

pen and say why are you so mad about all this?

Because it's so stupid. Like, like, it? It? I guess I guess I'm worked up about it because it makes me your spine out, man. It may. It makes me irritated when I'm just lied to go. Okay. Old face like, yeah, these are these are not like what does that thing? What did they is there's some kind of like, thing where it's where like you you hear somebody talk about something you know about and they it's

the man Gelman amnesia effect. Okay, yeah. Which is and I'll give the definition. When you read something in the newspaper, you're an expert on and you see that it's wrong, then you usually don't, but you should realize that the rest of the articles are also probably wrong.

Yes, that's, that's what has me spun up about this. Because when I hear it, there's lots of things that Apple does that are that are just, yeah, like,

like dropping podcasts from their index. Yeah. But

that's not what we're told that that's not the issue at hand. The issue here is a bunch of stuff that's made up. Yeah. And they're just flat out lying to lie. Here's another exact clip three. Another example about we talked about the about air airplane manufacturing in the in the automobile industry.

I think in even inside this country, we have former tech industries that get very stagnant. Let's take aerospace. We allowed the airline industry to merge into basically a monopoly centered on Boeing, you know, competing with Airbus. How's that going? We you know, when you think about the current history, you know, we've said okay, this big three can have it. I think we've done a lot better when we 40 have been completely disrupted by Tesla. Yeah, companies that come in and

Okay, so I see what he's doing. This is bullcrap. In fact, it's better if you have the, what we're doing right here. Case in point. There was no innovation because this is actually a very good example. There was no innovation in podcasting. Partially because Apple was the default on ramp they had become that they were the, you know, the 400 pound gorilla in the room. But partially because no one put put their big boy pants on and said, You know what, we're just going

Yeah, now you're splitting up. So yeah, man I love it. I love the hand waving of, you know, blah, blah, blah, some about Boeing. Okay,

what's wrong with Boeing? Boeing has a lot of problems right now. And that's, that's not because of lack of innovation. That's because what's her face? Nikki Haley moves him to South Carolina and let him do whatever they wanted to do. And the whole corporate culture changed overnight. That's what happened there. may even

I love the love the how how he undercuts his own argument, she says seems like totally disrupting. Yeah. And imports. Yeah.

All right, buddy. Okay, so that was a fail on his part a big fail. Yeah, yeah. And

but the real clincher, though, is this is clicked for him. This isn't she asked him. She asks him of what I think is a really good sort of question. If you're thinking about, like, what's the endgame here. And I think she rightly spots that there probably, is, there's nothing Apple can do.

describe it like that, it makes me think that there is not much that Apple can do to settle to make these claims go away. They agreed and made some concessions to the European Union, would it be as easy as saying, Okay, we'll make those changes here too, or is the entire goal of the Department of Justice to bring them to their knees and not allow them to be a strong competitor in their own right now, the goal of the Department of Justice is to protect

you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this. There's something else going on here. You for this guy. Yeah, probably a scalp. But this is much bigger. This is Bure you're allowing people to have protected encrypted conversations, you're not opening that up. And I'm pretty sure that they they make it very difficult before they actually do something. If you store something on iCloud, you could

every every every administration has. It has a flavor to it has a character with the Trump administration, that flavor was complete chaos and back backbiting and people, you know, it

was the same people. It's the same people, it was the same thing. Only Trump was different. Everyone else was the same. No,

I mean, you had people like, you know, people backstabbing him and leaking things. He didn't know what he was doing. He can't you know, he couldn't hire anybody worth a crap to save his life. There was there was all the it was this, there was a there was a culture of disarray in their administration. This the culture in this administration is of coercion. It's academia, the people that, that the people that are in positions of power, within this administration, are

All right, now I'm going to switch you back to podcasting. Dave, is it out of your system? Yeah. I want to congratulate Andrew Gromit. He nailed it. He got the T O V records working.

That was that was a switch holy cow. This. Congrats, Andrew. Very

happy, because he's he's building this framework for web apps kind of ties into this because you never know. You know, app stores are not something that we can depend on. Right long term, and he's building this this what does he call it? It's the whatever app I think and it's he's he's really building this whole framework, that everything. I mean, he has some cores issues, of course, but that everything will just work. And then you can spin up a web app and have a framework to

Yeah, that's he he's, this is part of his PWA library. Yes.

Yeah, exactly. And he

submitted some, some correction language to heli pad. No to the blip.

Blip itself, okay. Yeah. Cuz he was having troubles trying to figure out the remote item. But now he's got remote items working. He's got reply working. I mean, the app I mean, if you if you look at the the app, it's like, whoa, you know, it's got a lot of buttons and boxes and stuff. Because just the framework by man, you can spin up a progressive web app, something Hello, roofie. We know you're back. roofie. I'm just saying yes. All that you might want to do. You might want to

I've got I've got problems to fix. I've got bugs to fix on the index. This this episode. Response this episode's by feed ID response on the

API. Yeah, it's not, it's not spitting back all the all the episodes, it's just spitting back and fix them. I like 64 Instead of all of them. No,

it's different. Something different result set every. So you give it. here's the, here's what it looks like in practice, you asked for a maximum. So pretty much every API call in the index has a parameter called Max. So it's just basically just a limit, you know, I don't want any more than this number of result. If you give it a max of, let's say, 50, it may give you 22. Oh, if you give it a max of 100, you're running this on a 70. Or you're running this

on an LLM. This, is that why they're happening?

Here like that's the incorrect number of results. And you tell it that and it says, Oh, yes, I apologize. 94. Exactly. But yeah, but I asked for 100. Oh, my apologies. Here's 86. Exactly. The so you get these weird results in I finally figured it out. It's, it's because Okay, let's go. Let's talk about databases for a second.

Yeah. Whoo. Does that does that qualify as hot math talk or anything like that? No, I guess not. That's a

stretch. Okay. Because this year, we got databases

religion, brother has religion.

We got no jingles.

Hello, damn, Jennifer, we need hot database talk.

Yeah, yeah, this is just gonna suck for the next two minutes. So when you do a SQL query, you can't like, what we're asking for is episodes in a podcast, that's that query is super simple, super fast. Select these fields, where the, where they feed ID is x in the items table. Done simple. There's, but then we had everything is separated into different tables. So the chapters are in their own table. The sound bites are in their own table. The transcripts are in their own table, bla,

enormously. I'll bet

a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So when you so then so what the bottom line is, it's a con, it's sort of a become a big complicated query, and I'm going to have to figure out how to refactor it in order to get the speed that we need. And, and the accuracy. Wow. Because this this is, this is an example of one of those things that grew up over time.

Oh, yeah. What I mean is like, this is why it's religion. You you've you've put yourself in a box, not because you're, you're dumb, but because that's what it was in the beginning. Now we have all these others or other requirements people want, and decisions you made two years ago are now making more complicated. Is that a fair assessment?

Yes, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. So now now you just have to figure out how to get your stuff out the box.

Um, I have a couple of things on my agenda here because this stuff that we didn't get to last week. And this is something I was so disappointed because I don't know if you've if you've caught up with your partners weekly reviews, the one from last week. But Sam interviewed one of the co authors of the activity pub.

I haven't listened to speculates, I suppose

is a spec. Activity is spanned expand and activity streams. And I'm so sick and tired of hanging Sam Sethi now make no Oh, no herb in my life live boo, boo, boo. Okay, so I want to delve into activity streams for a second. Because I understand what he's saying. He's, let me start. Let me skip back. He has a huge problem with using the lightning split, in

the verb might be follow exactly the lead or whatever. Yeah, like

all this different stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so. But what he didn't ask or what he asked, and the guy didn't answer, and Sam didn't either didn't catch it, or whatever it didn't, it was so disappointing, because this is the one thing I wanted to know, where do you store that data? And what Sam is saying, on the mastodon on the podcast, index dot social is, well, the index should just store that. I'm like, No, I want nothing to do with user data like that. I mean, you might

what is the actor in this scenario? You would have to ask him Is it the user

I would say the user You have to have an account.

Right? Yes. I mean, well, you're not. You're going to be having any. Yeah. I mean, the that's the way, let me ask the way most of activity pub, which uses activity streams as its, you know, action language. That's the way that most that's the way that works typically, as you have,

why do I keep hearing that we have to store it in the index? It makes no sense. Well,

I mean, if I guess maybe they're talking about restoring the, the thing that we would receive, if we're liking a podcast or following a podcast, will mean we store, we don't store anything on the bridge. I mean, the bridge will be a good example of this. I mean, we don't store anything there other than follows. Because you have to, because we have to know where to send the updates to data when somebody is somebody likes a cat, which would be another verb, if somebody likes

But I think, okay, maybe maybe I'm misunderstanding here. Because he's talking about aggregating that data for use amongst other apps. So if you put it, let's just keep it simple. That cross app comments that he sees that that should be activity streams, which to me is like we already have this working with activity pub, the me we have that basic stuff working. So if you put a comment in on a podcast episode, it

I don't I don't think that you. I don't think that you're well, okay. Let me let me try to think of this in terms of the activity pub world. The pub, the other entities only know about what you've done with them. I mean, there's no What's your do, your actor only stores its information on its system, right. So my imaginary my Mastodon account knows all of the things I've done and knows what I've liked, what I've applied to follow knows what

you did last summer.

It knows, it knows all these things. Because it's me essentially. But, but a podcast I follow only knows things that I've, that I've posted to it, like a like, or a follow or something like that, or, you know, or the other option. The other the other potential there is if there's if

Right? Well, Sam Southie just boosted 10,000 SATs. He says, Adam, I don't have answers. I'm asking the questions. Okay. Activity Stream is the data activity above is the protocol for the apps true fans will be publishing user activity stream verbs to their activity pub client, with permission. Okay,

so But what this what we're okay So that makes sense. Right.

But we were switching now from doing stuff with podcasters. With the with the publishing podcasters to the users. I have I have some problems with that.

I don't know what you mean, like, what would the problem? No, no who say that against they say what you said again? Okay. Because I didn't and I'm not sure I fully followed what you meant.

But let me read Sam's thing again. Okay. True fans will be publishing user activity stream verbs to their activity pub client with permission.

So, okay,

so Okay, so that could mean how long you've listened, what podcast you're listening to right now? Did you press play? Did you skip an ad? All of this stuff. I just don't know. If we can ever that's not been the culture of podcast apps. In fact, quite the inverse has been true.

Sam, Sam is going to have already reached out and he's going to be on the show in April. Okay. Because then we cannot do this. Yeah, we just have to figure out a date. But yeah, he's gonna be on the show soon. But the the way that the way that I understand this is this is that true fans has made the decision to as well to

publish their users data with the user's permission. Yeah.

And so, you know, he's these these verbs that, that he's talking about? I mean, we know a couple of them off the bat. I mean, it's gonna be follow and like, and, I mean, there's, there's some others, but I mean, there's like a couple of like, default ones that we all we all understand. But then that there is a facility to create custom verbs,

right? It's open. It's like a namespace you can add to Yeah, yeah,

you can extend it. And so those custom verbs may be a can be other things like a review, you know, right.

Right. Right. Right, right. Or something

else. So like, if I can see how, if they want to be a, a sort of activity, pub first activity stream first platform, that they could, I could somehow hook that back into my standard activity, pub identity. And then and then like, the things I do on true fans, them, they also are reflected like, like I did them in my activity pub account. Like there, you know, it's not like a net is trying to not have two different presences.

We're trying to tie this right. So there's our kind of requires every user to have an activity pub presence.

I think, if I understand what his platform does, you, you are an activity pub actor already. But then, but it's just on his system, unless you also tie it out to this other to another identity.

And, and I'm for that i The more I look at activity pub, the more I like it, really like it. I mean, you could hook up your washing machine to activity pub.

Yeah, you know. Yeah. And then it could use 12 gigs of data a day.

Well, there's that. But as a as an as a bridge between all kinds of different applications. I think it's wonderful. I'm just trying to understand, is it something how do we use it within the context of podcasting 2.0 Is it I mean, we haven't been able to get really a single app developer to really, really integrate cross app comments. You in this podcast publishes our base URL everything every single time. The closest I've seen it is the curio Kassar basically pops open

You know, like, Daniel was like, No, and and he was anti activity for a long time. But now he's a believer, I think. I think it just takes it takes doing it. It takes writing some software, some activity pub based software first to see that it's really not as intimidating and bad as is, as it appears on the outside activity. Pub. Has a it's got an image problem for developers. Yeah, because it looks like a big bunch of goo and it looks very weird and hard to understand. And math.

And it was not easy. It was hard. There was some weird stuff, a lot of

the lots of debugging, lots of staring at the screen debugging, because there's no documentation to tell you what

is right. Maybe if I take it up one level, there is my belief after many years of talking about this with you, and with the group, that activity pub can connect the 2.0 apps, ie podcasting, in a way, that will be very exciting. If we can figure it out, you know, cross app comments, forget the way, just the idea of something that you comment here, it shows up in

do is literally every time we talk, because

I'm sold on the idea. I love the interview with that guy, and it was cool as he was like, I can't believe that you guys are putting podcasts into activitypub What a great idea. So you know, for one of the co authors of this to see the power that we're bringing to the NCAA, right, it has a is a huge marketing problem with activity pub, because everyone immediately thinks, depending on where you're standing in life, oh, lib tardes or Nazis. I mean, that's, that's all we can think

Yeah, but that denialist Yeah, so there's gotta

be a way that we can use that to our advantage, not something you and I can solve here, but it just feels like there's something so big there that would leave every other big app, which let's face it, there's only a couple really just standing there with the proverbial thing in their hands, because they're not a part of the group. And this would just it would be something very cool. But it's but we have to think beyond the the single features of comments or you know, it has

mustache by the way he does

it has its own activity pub actor accounts

should if it doesn't, it should. Is it the left is an outbox the right isn't it? My

My hair has its own Mastodon account it's got an acting as an activity pub actor Adam Curry's hair. Yeah.

Yeah, not. What did you mean by us? Each podcast app or platform would have to spin up its own activity pub instance.

Oh, my simple thinking. The the beauty of I'll just use the mastodon example of activity pub. So no agenda social blew up. It became no authority, social and I didn't want an account there. I could have had an account there, obviously, but I already had my SIOP, shop.com and I've integrated perfectly with the conversations that I want to be a part of, because of course, there's no blocking between us. And, and so I'm still a part of the group even though I have my

Yes, that, yeah, we took for the activity pub podcast index bridge, I took that, you know, second approach, which is it, and I think it's the right way to go if you can swing it, which is you have every per every user is also just, you can just assume you can just treat them like an actor in your platform. And then they get they get a

they get an inbox and outbox. I want to show an episode would be an actor with an inbox and outbox and to that actor, that episode actor you can send a review verb, a listen to verb, a comment, verb etc. Is that how that works? Okay.

Yeah, so you could do it that way? Yeah, we don't go. We don't go down to the episode Level A probably should have I didn't think about it. We just go to the podcast show level and treat that as the actor. It would be it would have been cool to go to the episode level. But that's, that's yeah, that's for sure. Another way to do it like that. And that. And that's the better. I don't like using judgmental words like that. But that to me, that's a good way to do for developers to

I've been just just imagine because, okay, so I'm just thinking outside the box, you know, like and subscribe, you know, leave it, leave a review, leave, you know, hit five, give me five stars, all this stuff that people always saying the discovery mechanism would be would be hyper, if we were able to pull this off. Because if I leave a review, is plus and minus of course, if I leave a review on on an episode and that flows over and there's, you know, 50 reviews on one

well wait wave lake or what's Steven bass, hosting thing, music hosting, music side project, music side project, you know, those kinds of platforms that the, the artist could be an actor. And so that you're being hosted on that on that platform. And that artist is sort of that's the official account or the official actor for that artist. That's where they're

And this kind of makes me realize that me oh, this noster RSS thing. It's not about Nasir nostra is competing with activity pub. That's the competition. That's the real competition. And I think we're honestly, I have no personal vendetta against nostre I think I think we're, we're hung up and spinning a lot of cycles on trying to do nostre stuff. When activity Pub is sitting there. It's been there for what 13

Which is always VC money and activity boom.

So yes, exactly. And then I think then we there's 25 more cool things we can do with our apps and the beauty is everybody gets to use them

this as a little bit of a tangent in that direction has kind of gotten me thinking about this and about how sort of interactivity between between different players in the podcasting world that we've been having a there's a real problem with spam feeds right now. Yes, yes, I know. And to the tune of hundreds a day that are being that I'm having to remove manually from the database and I'm working on my side to try to click to filter those out so that they don't come in

these are coming in through pod ping mainly

Yes, yeah. Yeah, through pod pain but other other ways as well. So they're originating on the hosting companies and then they're getting pod pain down and we're picking them up I've had to do I've had to put in a lot of defense code to try to keep those things out special

military operation

the SS the smoke the podcast index smo and the U which is which is fine. But like I need these things change they morph all the time. They're shapeshifters you know what today it's this one Korean spam thing that is just like below and things up? I mean, hundreds a day

and are they coming in from one hosting provider? Multiple

and but but a couple of a couple of months ago it was this Vietnamese gambling side and before that, it was the escorts you know, and before that, it was movies, streaming movies and always constant is a constant battle. And what I would love is to somehow make this an interactive a cooperative thing with us and the hosts and everybody all of

this is this is where it all comes from, of course, is exactly

where it comes from you you open up a hosting account with a free under the free trial. You and then you put a bunch of links back to your website in all over the place in the show notes and the title and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, that gets posted out as an HTML page. Because every you know,

track and see where that's a that's a tough lift with the hosting companies, they want people to get an experience get hooked and stay. I mean, I understand from their perspective, what

the because the other thing is, I mean, like so the only other way to combat that is once these once a pattern is identified of abuse, is to document that pattern somewhere. So that all the hosting companies can see it and they can all take action at once right and put in a filter and say like what's been happening for the last week is this one seemingly Korean based spammer is putting is creating free trial accounts on all these hosting companies with the term

presume that the reason what because the I'm always looking for why why are they doing this? What's the benefit? The benefit is probably the landing page that is automatically created on this host and then that gets picked up by Google and that's how they use it for SEO or something else. Yes,

that's right. They're looking for backlinks. Yeah, it's a backlink strategy. And so like, because this like and this is very common, these these strings that they're using are very easy to identify. So if we had a central place like a report like maybe a private repo on GitHub or something where we could people could all participate and say look I've identified this spam this spam campaign going on right now.

a crazy idea how about we create a mastodon account that that everyone could post to?

That would that would that'd be okay. Except if it's public, it's more likely to you know a will to see it and know how to evade evade it.

Well, here's here's another idea. How about a prayer circle, but we all pray that these guys stopped doing this.

This is probably more effective with what we have now. Hey,

hey, hey, asking you shall be answered. Hey carefulness

this is this is what we have now is not as effective as prayer

at the moment at the moment I hadn't learned yet I haven't started yet.

Oh, get get cracking brother.

I will I will be so sad. Yeah. We need

to send Yeah, with some we're gonna have to the spammers are out of control we're gonna we're gonna have to send them and send them to the cornfield. So we just need to figure out a way to make that app fair. And I'm and I'm open I just want this to be an open discussion let's talk about it on the on the mastodon and come up with some sort of game plan. Yeah, good. Because I'm waiting because I want to be I want to facilitate this. Like if I like right now I'm logging all of

do all that because they want it they want to get rid of it to its resources on their into his bowl no one needs that Oh, it's

a pain in the butt Yeah. It's a pain in the butt as manual work and it's just it's just the work was

just block Korea was blocked Korea. All right IP Block.

Man based on their population, numbers, everything they've gotten blocked themselves. They have you seen that they've got the The lowest birth rate in the entire world.

Yeah, it'll we just wait long enough the spammers will die off. Yeah. They have like 1.3 Children, you know, per per per marriage. No, they're dying. They're dying like Japan and China to China eventually will be will just disappear and the US keeps growing because our borders are open.

That's great. Hey, man, we had three kids, we did our part you did know, between the replacement value

between Tina and I've, we have three but you know, that's a combined six marriages. So we didn't do such a great job. Yeah, you're below the fit. We're very below that. I feel bad about that. You should. Sorry. Well, that answers a lot of stuff. I'm I'm kind of Yeah, okay. Good. We got you got some stuff on your list?

Yeah, I've got stuff on my list it will the iTunes block tag? Oh,

yeah. Yeah. This, you know, I'm, I'm kind of all in with you. It's like, there's lots of stuff that just gets ignored over time. And the iTunes block that they ignore themselves, why should we respect it? You know,

the only reason that I respect it, because I know. I know her hosting companies that use that as their primary identifier of the things they don't want listed. And so I'm like, you know,

we have a block tag, we have a block tag for that. And we will respect our own block tag, and people just need to start using that.

That's a good point.

I mean, it's, you only have to change the words iTunes to podcast.

That's true. We built it to be completely backwards compatible.

Yeah, it's a drop in replacement almost. And then you can actually list exactly, I think we have the list. I know that that let me see I have it on this show. Not nothing. I mean, ha ha ha ha, of course, if I look at show info, show info we have where's my blocks, your block is blocked on Apple, Spotify and Amazon. Apple didn't respect that. I didn't put it in there. It just showed up in their index. Someone else puts it in there.

For clarity for people who don't know what we're talking about. There some call over it pod verse, send us an email and said, Hey, we got a request for this podcast, but it's not in the index. Or it's in the index, but it seems to be hidden remark. Do

we have a lot of those? Because I get several requests. Hey, I'm not showing up. I tried to add it didn't work. And then you go look, and now I'm trying like, oh, block tag? Who was putting these? It seems like a lot comes from anchor? Or?

Okay, megaphone? Yeah. I think I think a couple of things are happening here, I think anchor may have because all of a sudden we started getting a lot of these from anchor. And I think anchor may have changed some sort of default or something is what it feels like. Yeah, it does. Anchor may have changed the default to where now there's a block tag. I don't know what

they're doing. My thought is, they're not playing nice. They set the defaults so that they will have a Spotify advantage. And your podcast doesn't show up in Apple automatically. That's my thinking. And Apple is sitting there going look at these efforts. They're putting a block tag in Hey, you come over here, you add it will add it.

Yeah, they're like, they're like you think you're doing something but we ignore that tag anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Yeah. So you know, why shouldn't we just start a revolution use the podcast blog tag?

And it's not most of these are not that huge of a deal because they're very, very small podcasts. And so they of course, we fix it every time. But then you hit a you hit one note the other one did today they call emailed about was a big it's a big podcast is forgot which one it was some kind of health scientist guy. But it was a big evidence. He's got a lot of he has a big podcast, it gets popular. And and I look and it's got blog tech sector, yes. And its own megaphone, which is

I'm just chuckling thinking that back in the day, the early days, we got pissed at somebody would send them an email flood who are paying for paying flood. Now, it's like a flood. Yeah. It's like, Hey, if you if you don't take care of this, then we're just going to reroute every single spam account that comes in through you. We're going to create an account on your service.

Do you know about tar pit? And what was?

What was tar pitting? Again? I

don't remember it's you purposely make your TCP handshake delay for like,

yes. Yes, I remember that, though, man. And there was also there was another cool thing we had if you had someone's IP address. And they were using Windows, you could send this really complicated command. And it would immediately blue screen them. Remember that one?

Yeah, that's the one where you like con pipe one. Where

are you overflowed some buffer somewhere? Yeah, am I doing though? Yeah.

That's, you know, I was. I don't think we have time to talk about it today. And I don't want to get in. I do want to talk about it next week. Is all the stuff with the pod verse and the

metadata drama? The Mel

yes, that I want to talk about that next week. But there's

just just a simple misunderstanding.

I think it's more than that. Well, I've got my own. I've gotten my own thoughts

about it that while we've delayed this for three weeks now, but you know, in, in another week, who will want to talk about it's gone. It's and people aren't talking about it anymore. It's done.

Dad, I've, I've got I've got an extensive set of notes. Okay,

but so do I. So we'll talk about it next week.

It really reminded me of that, because you remember hot linking to images. These nasty you're stealing

my bandwidth?

Yes. Yeah. How dare you, you know, stop me and they you? Oh, man. That was like the biggest thing back then. Oh,

I remember it. Well, I remember it. Well, people would steal my red ball dot GIF.

Or your little gas with the shovel.

dirt under construction. Oh, goodness. I guess one more thing that came up, which I thought was interesting. Steven B is looking at making landing pages for music for artists. And yeah, it was a productive conversation, I think where it landed to coined the phrase no pun intended. was to use medium equals publisher.

Yeah, do we need to? I feel like I feel like we have enough consensus around the publisher feed idea to to formalize that,

I think I think we're pretty close. I mean, I'd like to see if that works for Steven B in what he wants to do, but feels like a good idea. Feels like we're there. I've really seen

no pushback of any magnitude on the publisher feed idea. Everybody that has looked at it seems to be pretty much on Yeah, on the ball. And it's already get it's kind of already getting built out. So I mean, I'm,

I'm good.

I'm good. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking maybe in the next couple of weeks, go ahead and stick in that. We're at least writing writing it up so people can review it. You

know, we're coming up on tax season, the nature of your of your real job that actually keeps the lights on in your house and keeps you filled with beef milkshakes. Yeah, you have to leave on time. Oh, wow. And we're already there aren't we?

That's good. We can we can go ahead and start thinking some people know I was gonna play a song but if we don't have time, Oh, good. No, hit it hit. I want to hear a song. I mean, I got my blood pressure was up. Antitrust. Okay, we'll

play a song. It's a mellow song. This is coming from wave Lake and they've assured me that all the rights have been taken care of so it's on them but it's just the classic. I love this version. John Peterson. We were singing it before we started the show sitting on the dock of the bay. Watch feel free to boost everybody

Dark watching dark free school a slightly darker way wasting time cheers change wrist in my bones is wrong long ways to

go John Peterson sitting on the dock of the bay, podcasting 2.0 Thank you to the anonymous podcast pod verse user who boosted 10,000 SATs. Oh, nice. All right, nice. I liked that version.

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a great song. To classic.

Let's thanks people. So besides that anonymous pod verse user Sam Sethi comes in with another 10,000 SATs Dave's activity bridge is an activity stream with a single verb called follow. This then publishes a new post or action every time a new episode is published that I follow. Okay. I'm even more confused by think I think I think I know what we're doing here. Cotton Gin 3333 boosting for sitting on the dock of the bay. Thank you cotton gin and we have that 3333 from anonymous go

Not half more like a you know,

they bought they bought Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, I think Albury is cheap right now. Umberto is the cartel. Just so you know.

Yeah, the kingpin? Yeah, well, we'll stay

nice. We'll be real nice though.

We got $1,000 for the boys Buzzsprout

podcast a bolo. Whoa, Karla. Play on am Paula keeping

it alive. Thank you. Thank you so much. Buzzsprout appreciate that. Tom

Rossi just sitting around snow ski and all over the place. Get back to work, man.

Get back on that spam.

Yeah, you spam is out of control. More Marco Arment coming right in $500 Man

love it. Oh, much marks. 20 is blamed on the true value for value. We love it. I should have reminded everybody that this whole project everything is is no corporate creepy corporate money. No advertisements, nothing. It's just Adam and Dave running it running with scissors with a band of crazy people over it. No, podcast, index dot social. And all of this keeps the machines running and builds up the builds up the supply. So we keep can keep it running. If we

it as a good. It's a good show type of consensus change the Yeah. And I like to remind people, I mean, the hosting companies, and all the podcast apps, they all compete with each other. And they all support it. Also, they all support the index and 2.0. So that because me and the rising tide lifts everybody

is almost like communism is great. Is a socialist utopia. It is it works.

And thank you guys appreciate that. Kevin Bay $3.83 from the monthly payment from the podcast index and official endowment fund. How much $3.83 Thank you. We may need to look at putting our cash reserves for the index into some sort of like interest bearing account, because it's just basically sitting there losing inflation on a consistent basis.

Oh, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Okay, ma'am. We're not getting any interest. No, no,

I'm sure we can buy a certificate of deposit CD. I'll talk to I'll talk to my man Josh over there at the bank.

Yeah, maybe we can do some work. We're just

small community bank here in Fredericksburg. So we know our money safe. We guess we should buy Monero Yeah, bet it all on crypto. Nathan. G there's a good

plan. Yeah, all in all, Chip. Yes. Yes. Fully

Dogecoin

Oh, yeah, yes, Alana. Jean been 3013 37 Lee boosts he says you mentioned Roku basically being an app store. They're also in the advertising game because of the data they know about their user. Yes.

In fact, they they probably use activity streams and they spy on everything out if you I set up a network I set up a network trap one time just a sniffer. You pick up the remote you just pick it up fires off all kinds of commands back to HQ. Yes, just picking up the remote not touching a button just picking it up. They know the angle you're holding it they know everything so they know they even know the angle I'm yelling Yep, we tilt it it starts sending off data. Oh yeah it's disgusting.

Why why do I just want an ISO of you saying they know the angle you hold it

was just one that's where we have the ISO bought. I'll get that for you. No problem. debased

ghost 21,011 says through fountain he says DJ my DJ app of choice that is DJ a Why is made by algorithm. The app allows users to use their local music library recording enabled, or log into Beatport Apple Music SoundCloud title recording disabled using streaming service tracks Beatport and SoundCloud offer DJ subs to enable using the library. Oh, now

I understand. Okay. Yes. So it used to be, you could use these apps you used to be, you could use them on Spotify, and it was an app that you could have on your, on your desktop or on your, on your phone, and it would tap into your Spotify account. And you could basically mix records, mixed tracks, from the Spotify. Library and Spotify, of course, turn that off, because oh, gosh, DJs are using it. It's on a It's not approved use. It would be fantastic. I don't see why, why

He says Can the V for V library be made available? DJ creates a playlist for recorded sets using track history. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, it was great.

I mean, the trick is the mixing part. But otherwise, yeah, I don't see why that wouldn't work. Definitely.

Does. That must been what you use back in the day for me theoretically. Back in the day, when there was, you know, daily source codes. Then you're using that Spotify thing, right for a little

bit and then they turn it off because it was great. Okay. Yeah, it was great. It was Oh, so cool. That's why they turned it off. Because it's great. Yeah, of course. Oh, Curry's using it turn it off. Loan

loan Yank essential Richards 11112 Fountain he says go podcasting.

Yes, we can we can go podcast.

Farscape Ian 10,000 says through founding says we need to expose RSS feeds as pair endpoints. What is pair? PE AR what is that? Parian.

PE I don't know. This is This is yours. To me. This is not something I understand.

Is one of those things where in about 10 seconds the chat room is gonna blow up saying what periods and I'd be like, Oh yeah, duh. I don't know. Mike Dell 1701 Star Trek boost through cast man. He says I have looked at Netflix and Paramount. Plus, Wi Fi likes Netflix. And I like Star Trek. As do I like marks 3111 SATs through fountain he says content greater than network.

Agree. Yes.

Jean Everett, who is not Jean been?

Yes, we've established this. We establish this sent

10,000 SATs through fountain in Reno. What he says comic strip blogger is our delimiter he sent 24,000 SATs. Whoa, mountain.

Thank you so much for blogger. I can't wait for this booster Graham.

He says hold on we get my voice Yeah. How do Jesus fans Adam and Dave. I'd like to recommend shows and podcasts of Ben Drew. He has the excellent YouTube channel for microphone reviews, which you can find at www dot youtube dot coms forward slash podcast EJ. Additionally, he hosts a personal podcast at WW dot band Drew says.com. If you need comprehensive information about all microphones, I encourage you to watch bandroom YouTube channels. His YouTube channels are also

coordinator co pilot in networking an endpoint pair represents the communications endpoints for network connection. I don't think that's what we're looking for copilot.

That seems weak. In

client server communication. The client and server each have their own local endpoint and together they form an endpoint pair for the connection Okay, okay,

let's figure that out yep. Yep, I don't know I'll figure it out let's see yes subsea sup Yo sup it is pronounced guitar

yes it is get guitar or get fiddle even suffices. Yes.

I don't know why. But again for the second week in a row have post delimiter booster grams and a 50,000 from Kevin Bay. Oh, I just see this. No, I did not. He says thanks for making it possible for me to play DJ with my podcast sets and sounds. It's too much fun and so shocking every time I get a boost. So here's a boost back.

Oh, thank you. Luckily,

I don't know. I've gotten my algorithm algorithm is mixed

algorithm algorithm out of sync. Yeah,

it's not right to have post delimiter text that's that's an error things wrong there. Pot home also sent Barry there buddy Barry in the Netherlands 50,614 sets the podcast guru. Whoa. He says thank you for all your support guys. I really appreciate it.

No thank you. Appreciate it. I've been sending customers shoes way. Yeah, people from the Netherlands like hey, I'm Dutch. Oh, meet the Dutch meet this guy.

Do you get a lot of emails like that? Hey, I'm done. Oh, yeah,

very, very much so.

That's funny. And finally Nicolas be 58 5000 SATs to fountain he says Bitcoin Association Switzerland is lit back on back on the way home from the meetup boost

no boosts or as we say, You go,

I will fix my delimiter problem next week.

Okay, thank you all very much. We got some monthlies.

We got some monthly so that Satan's lawyer down under $5.

How can we not sending 666 I'm so disappointed what an opportunity.

Something to know about Satan. He's diabolical, but he's not exactly forward looking.

And he always overplayed his hand is is my experience.

Very small time horizon. Thank you. Yes. $5. Charles current $5 Christopher Raymer $10. Thank you, Chris. For James Sullivan. $10. Thank you, Cohen, glassbox $5 and Shawn McCune $20 Thank you. So wonderful.

Thank you all so much. As I said earlier, it's a value for value project and podcast. We put all of our Bitcoin bits and bobs our SATs onto the node provide liquidity I still so many people don't know this. If you need a channel, I'll open one to you. That's why we have it and we have plenty of capacity there to open up channels. So just let us know. And of course, we keep all the rest in a non interest bearing account. In an inflation, losing money losing

gotta hustle. All right, hustle never stops everybody in the boardroom. Thank

you for attending. I think we we got into some big stuff today. Looking forward to next we do have a guest next week on the show.

Do What did you ask me that was wrong? Where's my calendar? Sorry. Oh, sorry. No, it's just it's

the first topic will be metadata drama.

Yay.

Great weekend Dave. Get into growth my brother Take care everybody see you next Friday for podcasting?

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