Episode 171: Misaligned Expectations - podcast episode cover

Episode 171: Misaligned Expectations

Mar 15, 20242 hr 33 min
--:--
--:--
Listen in podcast apps:

Episode description

Podcasting 2.0 March 15th 2024 Episode 171: "Misaligned Expectations"

Adam & Dave are joined by Nathan Gathright of the brand new Episodes.Fm

ShowNotes

We are LIT

TLV records people!

Nathan Gathright

PI storing user activity stream data

Metadata drama

Proposal: implement custom TLV records for spontaneous payments by rdmitr · Pull Request #273 · lightningdevkit/ldk-node · GitHub

Fedifying the Index

-------------------------------------

MKUltra chat

Transcript Search

What is Value4Value? - Read all about it at Value4Value.info

V4V Stats

Last Modified 03/15/2024 14:09:49 by Freedom Controller  

Transcript

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Casting 2.0 for March 15 2024, episode 171 misaligned expectations always Friday once again Hello everybody. Welcome to podcasting 2.0 This is where we take us through a nice luxury stroll of everything that's going on in podcasting, the past, the present the future, that now you are welcome in the boardroom, the only boardroom that treats

stakeholders like the royalty that they are. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who eats popcorn to carve up before every big life moment. Say hello to the one and only podsafe my friend on the other end Dave Jones.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I don't know about every life moment. Yeah,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

no, no, no. Melissa, Melissa told me Melissa told me all about it. Every life moment. Dave's hold hold on, baby. Hold on, baby. I gotta I gotta get some popcorn. Gotta get ready. Hold on meat meat. The beef milkshake. Hold on, baby. Hold on. I'll be right there

Dave JonesDave Jones

in hand, as we speak. The milkshake. Milkshake. You got to balance your, your macros. Yeah, carbs and your protein and all this stuff. Well, you can go all carbs are all protein.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

It's been a very, very rough day for me.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I can hear it in your voice. Yes, because I could hear it as soon as I got on the stream.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So not only has the new media show turned into the AI, videos, podcasting show, oh,

Unknown

a week in AI this week, this week

Adam CurryAdam Curry

this week in AI and YouTube is a podcast. Come on, guys, as they get carried away. They get carried away.

Dave JonesDave Jones

That wouldn't. I'm shocked that that Todd and Robert get carried away about something.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And they're not fighting. Hey, bring back the fights. Yeah,

Dave JonesDave Jones

that's it. That's the best flame in each other. This

Adam CurryAdam Curry

is no good. We need more flaming. Come on, dudes. Come on. And then there was no no partners weekly review. Oh, really? I love you. Really, less. I never really listened to be honest about it. I'm so blase.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I'm gonna I'm gonna Fess up. I have not listened to last week's but news weekly. Oh, goodness. And I'm so behind on podcasts. It's like, I mean, I kind of gave up,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

you're gonna, you're gonna have to do a clearing of the cache. As

Dave JonesDave Jones

it's it's so bad. It's a purge. It's so bad. My cast Matic is like, it's boys overload. There's cracks forming on the side. It's not some point. You just gotta like, you know, it's kinda like your inbox, whether you have several 100 unread emails or not, you hit your control a delete,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

because it's good. Because if someone really needs something to get back to you. Well, I

Dave JonesDave Jones

mean, like you said before, I mean with with new media show. I know they'll just talk about the same thing next week. So don't have to worry about if I miss a show. Let's take the shape show over.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Let's catch up on the latest in AI. And actually, you know, Todd had when he first started doing that, he talked about this some podcast, was it it's a marketing podcast about using AI and marketing. I'm like, oh, okay, I'll subscribe to that machine. Pick a phone what it's called. And yeah, so now I have a whole bunch of these shows like yeah I can't handle too much

Dave JonesDave Jones

putting drip Scott said last week he claimed podcast bankruptcy and just deleted it.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I liked it. You got to do it. You got to do it. Man. I wonder what the what is the name of that show? I can't remember now. But it's one of those like, you know, the the it's the marketing AI show and it keeps popping up and like, Nah, not today Satan and then like I have I have to start unsubscribing from stuff I really do

Dave JonesDave Jones

is the media roundtable was oh, no,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

no. And I haven't heard the latest media roundtable and although it's always unclear, I only want to listen to it when when when James is on I want to listen to and I just want to hear when James and otherwise if it's a real roundtable so often it's like, it's like a psych No, it's just me with some other dude, some some professor of podcasting. It's like now

Dave JonesDave Jones

and I have to admit, I look at the titles of that show. And swipe right a lot of times I'm like, delete. I'm like I can't I can't I'm like can't handle you today.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I know. I learned I learned an interesting thing. This week. I know agenda. I promoted different modern podcast app every every show. I'm now rotating so everyone gets some love. And I think because you said cast thematic so it did cast thematic the previous week. And then, you know, like, I get an email from DeVore AK go, he likes, if something doesn't work, he'll forward it to me. It's like it's broken. Like tech, like tech was, yeah, of course, anything

to do with publishing the show or anything. And this is one of the apps you promoted. And it's some guy, you know, saying, Hey, I got no, I got the podcast app, as you told me. But he literally had something called podcast app.

Unknown

Anything you ever recommend? Well,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I say podcast apps.com, where you can find the modern podcast app. So I thought podcast apps.com Would be great URL, but it's somehow driven people to get the podcast app. And I don't know what it is. But it had ads all over it. It had ads all over it. Like doesn't work. It didn't get anything you know, it's not updated. didn't update within 90 seconds. Like you promise curry. Now,

Dave JonesDave Jones

what are those podcast?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I deleted all the mail. So I was so fresh. Oh, podcast dot app. Oh, what? Oh, let me see.

Dave JonesDave Jones

podcast app is for the curious. The number one most downloaded podcast app. No, I bet only because it's called podcasts.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Let me see what it looks like. Well, it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't a wasn't working. Because you know, the one of the features I say is, hey, these monitor podcast apps, the update within 90 seconds of me posting.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And he said, I've downloaded the app and your show is not there yet. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yeah, it's no good. And then. And then John Ford said to me, one of the apps you promoted is broken.

Dave JonesDave Jones

This is not that I'm blaming, you know,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

this is how people think that's some some work. But just learning podcast app. I'm

Dave JonesDave Jones

trying to make sure that I'm wondering if if they might be on the Apps page? No,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I don't think so. Now I was looking at. And I've also been promoted podcasting. to.org. And I went there the other day. And so I just went there kind of objectively, it's like, Okay, now let's just say I'm a dude listening to no agenda, Adam says podcasting, I want to learn about this. And it says, for audiences enjoy Richard listening and viewing experiences, podcasts and 2.0, as you follow, engage, engage with support and share podcasts more easily. And then it says,

find a better app. And then it just gives me a whole list. It doesn't tell me. I mean, yeah, if you click on something, it shows me all the features. But it's not. It's not telling me what all these great apps do. And I know this is open source. So I would, I would hope that someone writes a marketing there that says, Here are the features that these apps do. They're here they are listed, you can check out which one of the features they support. But it doesn't say any of that.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Or audiences find a better app. The icons are pretty beautiful.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And, and you know, Sam Sathi managed to get listed first, I knew he would do that. He's very smart.

Dave JonesDave Jones

He knows alphabetical sort of starts with T know,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

it's by number of features supported, which is which is actually an interesting way to do it. I'm cool. It's just yeah. There's nothing that tells me as a as someone who's new, okay, an alternative enclosure, booster grabbed it doesn't tell me what that is.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Cool to have, like us, like a description. Well, if you can, like, you know, once you click

Adam CurryAdam Curry

on it, it goes to basically the namespace description of that of that tag is not for not for mere mortals sorry, current press, not for mere mortals

Dave JonesDave Jones

will boost your benefits with this approach. So anyway,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

so now that we have a great marketing site that I

Dave JonesDave Jones

would encourage for AI, yes, right.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I should be able to take that and then right beautiful description. I mean, it can do I'm sure it can do 45 pages, like Target 45 pages of document documentation. Yeah. Let's let's just let the AI loose on it. It'll be fixed in no time. Well, I'm excited to write

Dave JonesDave Jones

your HTML for you to do anything

Adam CurryAdam Curry

that's a great idea. So I got I got another one of those. I think I sent you the link that start nine is now supporting the open open llama lucky ticket ding dong. That's my favorite model LLM the luck of DECA ding dong LLM. When I inserted loaded it up, and, you know, first thing I do is put in

there to see if I still have it open. You know, tell me about the value for value, the value for value model, and it starts right away by telling me that this was developed by the World Economic Forum like okay yeah, All right, good job boys negative was like, oh, man, it's just not good for search. It's just not good for search, commerce blog, post anything.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I grabbed stable diffusion the other day, because I was trying to have been playing around with the NVIDIA local LLM. So I grabbed this table diffusion went and I was like, Well, you know, maybe I'd like to mess around with a local image LLM. And I'm just trying to get my, you know, get my feel for how this stuff works. And it sucks. I mean, it's horrible. It makes the worst images have ever seen. I'm sure there's some I'm sure there's like 27 Different

Adam CurryAdam Curry

you're not doing it right.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I'm holding it wrong. You're I mean, like it's your

Adam CurryAdam Curry

it's awful. Your best said like, you're not a good PJ. Prop jockey.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Prom. As I was, I just gave us something simple. Like, I want to draw a picture of a dog in a sitting in a field of flowers or something like that. And it was like, complete it looked like a some sort of alien creature in It was awful. Yeah. Is this is not good tech. Well, I mean,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

okay, and we need to get off of this in just a moment. But what you know, no agenda. We have no agenda art generator.com. And we have 30,000 images for you know, 1600. And what are we at 16 for 1600 42 episodes. And we have multiple artists always competing to create the album art during the live show that we then use for that episode. And ever since the AI our generators, it's been increasingly hard to find something that's good. Because

people just you know, prompt jockey away. And yeah, okay, it's, it's rendered pretty, but there's no humor, there's no meal. It's like, there's nothing in there that makes it like oh, that's a great piece of art. Oh, that's hilarious. Oh, you understood how to how to portray this one thing we talked about. It's just gotten bad. And even established artists who are doing a lot of hand work, you know, they're now kind of phoning it in. It's destroying creativity.

Dave JonesDave Jones

That yeah, I don't the all the image Ella limbs, they all have their own little flavor. In it's like they get you can tell, really, almost immediately which one it came from. You know, they. So you can say, Oh, well, that's mid journey. Oh, that's a dolly. That's this. Because they all just kind of see, I guess it's just the training set they use and the optimizing that they do, they all tend to look the same.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

And for some reason, there's a reasonably large contingent of people who want to make podcasting as boring as possible to make the show notes all boring. Make your chapters boring. Make your art boring. And oh, I can't wait to just have aI generated voices so it's just all boring. Yeah, it's gonna be great. This creativity comes from the Lord our Creator people, not from an AI generator.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Speaking to JCD hit that y'all got a story the other day about a dog with a box on his head. My wife had there, where she grew up in South in South East Tennessee. There was a legendary dog named Jughead and Jughead got his head stuck he ran away and got to get his head stuck in a milk jug or not a milk jug of milk carton like some kind of rights like yes I'm gonna milk no it's not it's like a it's like a milk container or

something. And it just he ran around with his head stuck in that milk container for like a week.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm happy to hear that you listened all the way to the end to hear the good news story. This is very good. I like that.

Dave JonesDave Jones

No, I'm I listened. If I if I listened to an episode, I usually finish it. And then And like with I was talking with the own podcast indexer socialism earlier with somebody about advertising and versus V for V and all this kind of stuff. And I mean, I'm not anti advertising either. I listen all the way through the ads. I try. I try not to skip ads when I can. Even though I've got a download and I could and nobody would know but I still just feel like I need to know

Adam CurryAdam Curry

if the ads are I like my hatless and pivot. I listened to the ads on that because they're their products that I probably won't buy and I always love listening to what's the what's the company that owns the software versioning system.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Software Version system, the

Adam CurryAdam Curry

one that got hacked, the China basically has all of us want to look at it. So Atlassian Exactly. Atlassian and they own a couple of products. One of them is the isn't the the the versioning system the software?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah. What's that? Yeah, like? JIRA, maybe?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

JIRA. Yeah. Anyway, conflict Confluence. There you go. Okay. And so Atlassian advertised on their podcast all the time. With to me, you know, their technology show, they talk about all kinds of cyber attacks, but never about the one that involves their advertiser. Isn't that interesting?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yes. Curious.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So that kind of stuff. bugs me. It's interesting. You bring that up, because I was talking to some, I've been doing a couple of interviews again, just to get out there and get some more 2.0 noise in the marketplace where I can tell you Yeah, Jesus in 2.0. Man, that's what I'm all about these days. Okay. But yeah, it's combover of champions. And so and, oh, what are we drinking?

Dave JonesDave Jones

This is a look, this is a Lacroix, I'm clearly speaking to JCD. Again, I'm clear on same. I know what I know exactly what JCD drinks, what he drinks, when he drinks it. It's whatever is the cheapest on sale that can be delivered from Amazon. That's the algorithm, because I'm on the same algorithm. Hashtag show beer. Exactly.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So and I find myself, you know, talking about RSS delivery. And just how it is the, the model for content delivery of the future. And this also comes a little bit into I talked again, to Zack from Indy hub, who is, you know, he's definitely retooling is going to get RSS feeds. He understands that he knows that he's a smart guy. And he's way ahead of the curve, because he already understands he and he comes to

it from a Bitcoin perspective, so he understands lightning. He also, you know, he looked at noster and he said, I see the communities as but I don't see the delivery system, let's say exactly. I said, and yeah, we have, you know, the apps are there we go look at podcasting. to.org you may not understand what the features are, but there are a whole bunch of them that do it. And, and, you know, so he gets it. And so, you know, so

RSS, it really is the delivery mechanism. And right now, the the monetization part, really value for value is what works. It's scary. It takes you know, it's, it's, it's a there's an onboarding process to you know, we would podcasters is one thing. She has me podcast that a lot 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of podcasters are now understanding value for value. Not all of them

certainly not all of them implemented correctly. But boy, I mean, there's a couple of people who just run into the bank with this and just go look at the at the fountain top 10 And then go listen to those shows listen to their ass listen to their, their Thank you segment, how they do it this week in Bitcoin, which is, you know, it is now the weekly web. I look forward to it, you know, it's a good show. And I streamed 200 SATs a minute, and I boost them and he and he gets it. And

yes, it's Bitcoin. So that's going to be easier. But there's all kinds of shows that are starting to use this very well, not bringing artists over that hump. It's, it's really, I don't think any artist gets it, what we're talking about when they first sign up. And I think that wavelength knows how to talk to artists. There's many other many other very good choices for them

right now. And, you know, I love what pod home and RSS blue.com Yeah, really 2.0 native hosting companies that they're talking to this contingent differently. But until someone sees sat streaming into their wallet, that's when they go, Oh, wow, what is this, it's that moment. And as soon as you know, it's, it's a it's a heavy lift, it's a long lift. But once you see it, and then once you can make that work within your, your budget of

your creation, there's a future there for you. And you know, you just have to be honest, it's going to be 3% of the audience will actually contribute but if you keep if you figured out how to do the ask and, and and have that feedback loop, whichever way you do it, I mean, look at the chosen, they raised, you know, $10 million, I think for their for their, for their

second series. Now they're on their fourth series, and, you know, they thank people by giving them trips to be on the set and just all kinds of different, you know, gamifying things that put in there. So it works with with Vidya with film as well. So with the 14,000, independent filmmakers who submit to the Sundance festival every year, they didn't all have a million dollar budget. But the technology has gotten much easier. So anyway, long story, to bring it around to my

favorite saying you cannot monetize the network. Because ultimately, it's really about the content itself about what that one, that one show or that one album or that one artist, what, that's what you want. And the audience cares less and less about sub network that is promising to give me more of the

same and better and etc, and promote stuff to me. And that's what is now breaking down the streaming model, the streamers, I'm talking at Paramount plus Disney plus Hulu, Netflix, this new sports conglomerate, that's all your sports will now be behind one big paywall on a streamer. And it's it's, it's breaking people's minds, it was great in the beginning, because you get that, oh, I can watch this whenever I want to watch

it. But the Wall Street Journal podcast did a, they had a survey, they put in some of their own their own experiences with streaming. And I pulled a couple of clips, just to accentuate. I mean, they're using words that I love. And some that just makes so much sense where you can start to see that yeah, okay, you know, the US House of Cards, costs, you know, maybe 30 $40 million to do a series. But that's House of Cards. There's a lot of stuff out there that is just, it

doesn't have to necessarily be high overhead production. And if you get enough people to look at it in a value for value model, eventually we're going to find stuff that will work. So anyway, this is kind of a story about the streaming companies, the problems that we're running into. But listen to this, this first clip. First,

Unknown

I want to talk about a relatively new trend you reported on and that is consumers canceling their streaming subscriptions. Does that have to do with the price hikes we've seen introduced by a number of streaming services. So you see customers starting to get to a point where their streaming budget where they're realizing that it's approaching what cable used to be or just starting to feel really expensive and meaty. And so they're saying, What do I

actually need? What am I actually spending my time on. And because those streamers have raised prices, they have kept the simplicity of being able to easily turn them on and off. A lot more consumers have gotten savvier about saying, You know what, I'm going to binge this on Hulu, and then I'm going to turn it off, or I'm going to binge this next season on Netflix. And then I won't need it again for two months until this next show

comes out. So I think much savvier consumer has emerged and also with inflation, and just the the rising cost of living households are saying how much am I actually spending on entertainment? And am I getting full value out of it? Oh,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

she used the V word. Oh,

Dave JonesDave Jones

this this is exactly this is totally true. I've done this. I did this exact thing. Yesterday, we watched what was it? We watched a series on Netflix. I can't remember what it was right now. Watch the series on Netflix last month. And then we ended I noticed that Netflix had my card again. Because we had we had not been subscribed to it for gosh, almost a year. And then we renewed it to watch one show. Can you can see. And then I can end and so I hit my card again.

And I was like, Oh, I forgot to cancel that. And so I just cancelled it. I'm like, well, when something else comes out that we really want to watch. I'll pay for one month of it. We'll watch it and then we'll be done. I mean this and did the same thing with Paramount plus. Basically what we've decided is one, we will not have more than two streaming video things at any one time. Oh,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

you will put yourself on a better streaming budget. Yeah.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Because if you don't, you'll end up with it's worse than cable if you if you don't watch it. That's so we you know, we we've kind of just kind of loosely said let's not let's try not to have more than, you know, 2025 bucks or 30 bucks a month because we cancelled our cable subscription. We had a cable subscription we cancelled that in 2004 and we have not had a cable subscription since then. So we were an early cord cutter. This

Adam CurryAdam Curry

is very interesting because right away and this is always to be expected NAMM post in the boardroom? Nas VPN Plex. I like to pay for my content. None of those services offer you even the opportunity to pay for the content even on a voluntary basis. People say all the time hey man Get Plex give me my account. It's all this cool stuff for free. And I always say thank you really appreciate that. But I like to play pay for my content. It's kind of a Karma thing with me. You know, it's

like I live by this, I don't want to die by this. So, you know, I, I literally ask people to support me. And I give my value out freely without any expectation that you have to have no expectation. How about that for biblical one? Minute?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, I feel kind of the same way. That's, that's what it's Yeah, I feel very similar. Because we buy, we buy a lot of stuff. And that's one reason why I want to keep my streaming low, is because we just, I just outright buy movies, and not necessarily the disk, but I'll just try them on

a stream or whatever. It's like, with all these musicals, we've been watching, like, I've bought Phantom of the Opera the other day, I mean, we just, we just pay for it, I'm, I'd rather just, I'd rather just as I need it, it may end up actually being costing me more per month. But this is this is the Now Phil, I feel like the actual creator of the thing gets more money when I do that.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So it's now where to exact so we're talking about reverse value for value here. You know, people are like, oh, I want this series. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna subscribe to Netflix for a month, and then I'm gonna cancel, that's not good for Netflix, that's not good for their bottom line. They're not making then I don't know what it is. But I'm sure they have to have you for an X number of pay periods before you actually start to pay off. And then long term, it's just it's not going

to work. And in fact, so there's my you can't monetize the network, the network being the streaming service, because people just want to have it. Like, I just want that one show. And I'm going to unsubscribe, even the whole idea of all these different apps is a problem

Unknown

there. I mean, services like Amazon Prime, for example, you can access a couple of other streaming services from that platform. Is there anyone right now trying to streamline the streaming process? So maybe someone like Margo can watch everything in one place? Yeah. So this is an interesting pain point. In the streaming world, it remains really fragmented. There are certainly companies like Amazon, YouTube, Apple to a

degree that are trying to become more of the gatekeepers. But there are lots of reasons why certain streamers may not want to do that they want to have their app alone be the destination for streaming, to not have consumers start their journey elsewhere. So this is really an unresolved issue. For many, like the Smart TV screen is the best shot at a landing page. But it's not terribly searchable. It's not really the dream version of it,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

think, look at how far ahead, we are the head of these guys, people you know, wherever you get your podcast is powerful, it's powerful. And that means that you are using an app that works the way you want it to. And in many cases, if it doesn't work the way you want it to you can find the developer and make a suggestion, I despise the autoplay of Netflix and Hulu is doing it now sometimes to hate it. I'm always turning down the volume. You know, if I want to preview out, click for a

preview, the autoplay is just this annoying. The search doesn't work the same, everything is different. I'm having to bend my mind around different streaming podcast apps, if you will. And this is a problem. They're identifying this very problem. But all we want to be gatekeepers. Well, the audience that you're serving doesn't want it and that's why

they're, they're behaving the way they are. And then the third and final clip, this one blew my mind, one of their listeners, and this was not the only person who had this type of behavior. This was very cool.

Unknown

So let's talk about how companies are responding to such varied consumer behavior. Here's a really interesting example from Sam Rotenberg, who isn't in it for the visuals, Nathan G.: I tend to skew to shows that are more audibly interesting. As I'm walking around the house, I find myself listening to shows more often than I used to, instead of just sitting there and watching them. So I think this is really interesting, because we're not even talking about a consumer watching habit. We're talking

about listening. How do companies get a grasp on their streaming company has on such a wide range of consumer behavior and how we're not only seeing and viewing but listening to Yeah, this is a real area of interest for them and understanding when and how consumers are using their service that it's not as obvious as I throw it up on my living

room TV screen. For some people, you know, increasingly I've heard lately they listen to Netflix when they're going to bed, that it's something that helps them fall asleep at night for young people. There's often multiple screens involved in

multiple forms of entertainment happening at once. So really under Understanding the way in which consumers are accessing this is important for streamers to understand the utility of their services and who is more likely to turn versus stay, because the service has become part of their daily lives are not separate

Adam CurryAdam Curry

the content from the playout experience people. It's so painfully obvious, this

Dave JonesDave Jones

is true, but I hadn't win. So this young guy that works for me, I think he's 25. And I've learned so much from this guy, like about Gen Z, in in their behaviors about things. One thing I've one thing I've learned is it's tons of Gen Z. Uses subtitles.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

The Oh, big time. Oh, yeah, this is this is I'm using them now. And we did Yeah. Some research on that and no agenda. Part of it is because of how sound is mixed these days. A lot of this makes for theater for Dolby 5.1. The center channel is often ignored for regular type of

Dave JonesDave Jones

viewing, as muddy, wet, muddy,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

but also this has become because there's so much multiple screens going on. It's become a crutch that Gen Z and millennials and yeah, I'll even say Gen X has started to use, I grew up with subtitles in the Netherlands. So it's very comfortable for me. This is why I've always been we've been on transcripts from day one. People really love this, even when they're listening to something. It's a huge part of the experience. The

Dave JonesDave Jones

other thing it the other thing that he said was that he does exactly what she mentioned, he falls asleep. Yeah. Went to Netflix. And I'm like, How in the world can you do it? This doesn't make any sense. Whereas

Adam CurryAdam Curry

lots of people fall asleep to a podcast. That's why many podcasts apps have the sleep timer. And unfortunately, even my wife sometimes it's you know, when I'm when I'm when I'm traveling, I like to listen to you so I can fall asleep like what this is. This is rude. She's

Dave JonesDave Jones

gonna train herself. She's around

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Slovenia, and syphilis lethargy, this, I think is what it's called. So my conclusion from this is a couple of things. One, we're doing great people, we're doing great to carry out carry, we got something special going on here,

too. I think that, that there's still so much room. For podcast apps, you know, we have a very, I've said this, from the first day we start out on this journey, we have a very set idea of what a podcast app has to be. But everybody now kind of knows that, you know, you've you've hopped around, you've tried a couple, something works for you for some reason. And so I encourage app developers to solicit feedback to continuously

because that is your customer. That's a whole nother conversation we can have based on what's been going on this week. That is your customer, that is who you are, who you're satisfying. There's huge value in in what you do. And then I think in order to move forward with the value for value model,

I think there's, this is gonna sound weird coming from me. But I would almost want to have a flag in my feed that says, when someone goes to play my podcast, I would like to app to pop up something to remind them it's value for value, please consider putting in a value per minute or per hour or whatever right now

before you continue. And then that's something app developers are gonna have to think about themselves, because that may be too intrusive, maybe that's not what they want for their customers for their, for their users, which I just think are customers. But there's something there's going to be some middle ground that is needed to remind people. So for instance, podcast guru, which I've been using a lot. I'll subscribe to a show. And then I'll completely forget that I have to manually enable

the streaming sets per minute for each new show. And I'll be you know, I'll be on the third time I'm like, Oh, crap, I haven't streamed a single sat to the show.

Dave JonesDave Jones

That that is definitely a UI thing. Because cast ematic for a V for V Enable Show. It puts it right there in front of you. It's not, it's not obtrusive, it's not intrusive. Excuse me. It's not intrusive, but it is, but it's not as a nice reminder and it doesn't get in the way but it's right there. And it'll tell you, you know, you're out. You're out of SATs, like you're,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

that's another thing. That's another thing I really liked how fountain is doing it now. It's right there this little counter going, it doesn't make me feel bad. In fact, that makes me feel good for some reason. But I thought, well, if you're showing how many sets you're sending might not feel good, but I feel good. I feel good seeing that. Now, they also have a counter on the other side, which says you're earning

back this much per minute, that and then. So these are UX things that are happening that are that that need to be encouraged. Don't just think you're there. Think about these people. There are people coming who have thing who cannot get any, it cannot steal position in these in the streamer apps. This is what indie hubs dot studio has seen. And I told him as well, it's like, it's not going to work. If everyone has to, you know, come into one system, and has to set you know, has to pay a set fee

per minute they're watching, you need to make this open. And and but you know, in his app is basically podcasts that he's going to have all kinds of screens or you know, user experiences that show, hey, this is what you're doing this is this is how you can help. This is how you make the whole system function, etc. It's all about moving beyond the podcast, listener or watcher even who is used to adds to this new model. It can't just be Oh, yeah, it also does value for value. Consider doing more.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, I think I see what you're what you're talking about maybe the thing that underlies what it may be the underlying thing of what people are misinterpreting as a quote, move to video, you know, like that. There's these new sort of listener behaviors that are happening. They're clear, I mean, it's obvious there are new, there's new ways that people are consuming media. I mean, that we can't deny that

across the board. But it's been interpreted in in ways because I think there's just been some I mean, forgive me, but clumsy. Recent market research has been done and ends up being like, Well, yeah, I use YouTube in I searched for my podcasts on YouTube and it's like it. I think maybe there's just not the true message of what's happening is not really coming through. Yeah, then you, but when you when you look at it, you see these Okay, well, here's how these people are really

behaving. And then what is podcasting need to do? Well, first of all, I mean, podcasting is perfectly positioned to take advantage of any use case, because it is so flexible. Maybe you can see I mean we've seen podcasting be morphed into mute into a music streaming app with with like wave Lake and Ellen beats me podcasting can it's just media delivered over an RSS feed it is so flexible you can layer any UI any experience over the top of it that's the whole point of podcasting two point of

the whole point. Hey, so

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I have a new name. What did you you said it's just media over an RSS RSS feed. So instead of Nasir it's morph

Dave JonesDave Jones

what media over an arson yeah

Adam CurryAdam Curry

more more more

Dave JonesDave Jones

we can we get can we get bitcoin VC funding easily

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Hey Phoebe compare ABC CBS like yeah register the domain name dad. Okay, let

Dave JonesDave Jones

me see most yelling at us for leaving Nathan in the in the lobby.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Let's do that right now. Let's bring in our guest today because he has been in podcasting 2.0 for quite a while. In fact, I'll give you the brief history he created pod link which is bought by pod sites pod sites was bought by Spotify. Then they fired him. Since then he's gone on to create steno.fm transcribe.fm and has something new to announce today. We welcome to the podcast in Tupelo a board meeting in the boardroom. Nathan gathright. Howdy, howdy, howdy,

howdy. Hey girl. Hey, girl. We can be on NPR and Wall Street Journal and you go hey, Nathan, how you doing, man? Pretty good. So it's been a while but maybe a year long. Yeah, just about. So you want to weigh in on any of the stuff we just talked about? Nathan G.: Oh, I think all the streamers got jealous of Netflix's stock price and they waded into the streaming wars, having never had to ever deal with churn management and realizing oh, we've we've led cable networks, you know have

year long contracts. Send wire physical wires out to people houses, all that jazz. And now they joined the streaming wars made like Oh, turn management is a thing. Hmm. I guess I guess allowing people to sign up and cancel within a month is not that great for our business?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, but the Paramount Paramount is they're close to the end. Oh,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

yeah. I mean, they've got Larry Ellison's kid buying up half of their assets.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, I mean, that they went all in on Paramount plus, and it was a saw, yikes. Yeah, it was bad. Nathan G.: Yeah, I think Sony is the legacy media player that has done the smart thing, which is they're just a content arms dealer to everybody else, they'll sell to Netflix, they'll sell to whoever. And I think a lot of these media companies are going to basically retreat to that position, give up that whatever their streaming services and go back to just selling to everybody else.

That's an interesting, I'd like that content arms dealer. That's a funny.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

It's Gosh, man, you know, never came up in that conversation. Was roku.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh, they are? Yeah. You know, this, this is a hard thing in some ways, too. Because, like James posted the other day about, you know, I can't believe that. That stripe

is doing a trillion dollars in in transaction volume. And, you know, so I went and looked at their, at their, you know, earnings and stuff are not earnings, but they're still they're not public financials or whatever financials, in the best days, they apparently are still not profitable is that it's none of those business, but they're the second largest payment processor in the world, and they still don't turn a profit. So

unbelievable. Yes. So you have to wonder about some of the about this whole thing is like, well, Roku, sometimes you think, Oh, well, they're perfectly positioned, they must be doing well. But that's not always the case, the volume, if the margin is low, the volume really doesn't help you. And

Adam CurryAdam Curry

when they're really just an app store, you know, the App Store. And that's it. They're like, they're like the iPhone of streaming apps. But without all the all the other stuff, just literally the App Store. So anyway,

Dave JonesDave Jones

Nathan, I'm about to click on this link. That I tweeted, yes.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Know what it does episodes dot F m, I want to take a look at this.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Okay. I clicked on it. And if it's a fancy

Adam CurryAdam Curry

green logo, so it makes me feel like climate change right away. Nathan G.: It's more like a radioactive green. Ah, oh, it is? Yeah, it is kind of gooey. Yes. Let's see. Yes. waste sorting by popularity, save preferred podcasts apps live. What is this? Tell them tell us what this is Nathan. Yeah. So Nathan G.: after I sold pod link, I, you know, still wanted to keep working on it. But I, you know, was now a employee of pod sites. And so all my time really had to go to their

priorities. And making a tool like pod link better was pretty low on the to do list. And especially after they acquired both, especially after Spotify acquired both pod sites and charitable charitable had Smart Links already, pod link did not really fit in strategically. So it's just sort of floating a drift within Spotify being maintained for you know, some undetermined amount of time. And I didn't want to leave podcasters in the lurch if they ever decided that they were just

gonna shut it down and ignore it. I've offered to you know, take over maintenance of it in the past, but no progress on that front. But episodes FM is sort of is my return to the genre of this type of product. So wow, I get it. I see what it does. No, yeah,

Dave JonesDave Jones

I'm on our show. Yeah, I'm listening. And then you and then it's got links to all the other apps that will also let you listen to the live stream. Nathan G.: Yeah. So if you click you know, if you click out to like the show level link, you can also click down into any of your old episode level links. And there's a lot more than six apps on those episodes or on the show level itself. I've got 30

apps in there right now. So you've got quite a lot. And when a visitor clicks on one of these things, it sets a cookie on their device to sort of like set their preferred podcast app, there's no device level setting of a preferred podcast app. And we've had efforts like, you know, fast follow that are trying to sort of work at this problem. Episode. Sorry, episode. Playing live. Yeah, episodes FM sort of is my approach to that problem, which is, you know, a service that

lets you set a preferred podcast app. subsequent visits after that first time will just take you straight into that app. So you say fountain is your favorite app. Anytime you ever click on an episode, that FM link in the future, it will just always go to fountain and you won't have to hunt through a list of 30 plus apps every single time to get to the show. You want to listen to Ha,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

that's this is really interesting. That's and now will it is

Dave JonesDave Jones

like paddling. It's like pod link for live Nathan G.: a lot. Yeah, life is just one feature, though. It's doing it at the show level, and at the regular episode level as well. So if you know if you're just a vanilla person who likes Apple podcast, you know, episodes.fm will just take you straight to the, you know, the chauffeur, any podcast on Apple podcast or the episode level link for any episode on Apple

podcasts. And you'll basically never really see this webpage beyond the first time as long as you have your cookie set.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So the idea is that, instead of using your podcast app, you go to episodes.fm. Nathan G.: Now, you'd still end up back in your own pocket, right, right. But but so if I just say I want to see pod news, weekly review. So I type that in click, and then I can play the latest episode right away. But I can't say I always want to listen to this on the overcast. And then it'll set that and so whenever I go back to episodes.fm, which is so that

would be kind of my starting spot. Like I want to listen to X, Y, or Z. Nathan G.: Yeah, I think it's really for, it really only works if a lot of podcasters themselves all use episodes FM to sort of promote their shows. So maybe you're scrolling through Mastodon, and somebody is promoting their show, instead of like, okay, let me do a copy paste the name of the show hope that there's not some sort of like special character in the name of the show that?

Yeah, so it's really, it's Nathan G.: really the call to action for podcasters, who, instead of just saying, wherever you find it, you know, wherever you get your podcasts, they can actually provide a call to action that takes the listener straight there without asking the listener to do a lot of like, copy pasting. So straightaway, I want to reserve podcasting.episodes.fm No, agenda.episodes.fm. I'd like to buy those from Nathan G.: you. Yeah, so I've got no sort of paid plan in

right now. But I just gave it to you. Nathan G.: I'm definitely planning on supporting custom domains, so that if people you know, want to own their own domain and not be just linking out to some third party service that, you know, could maybe go away one day in the future. Oh, that would be great. So I could have like, or could I do a subset where I say, Okay, go to curry podcast.com. And it shows my not, it shows my Oh, here you go. It shows my publisher channel and it shows my pod roll.

Nathan G.: Yeah, I definitely want to explore publisher channel, once a few more people start making those, I definitely want to be supporting publisher channels as well as episodes. Yeah, that's very cool. That's a great idea. Nathan G.: Yeah. So tied in with this sort of idea is a couple of proposals for the namespace that I have going on. One of which is, hey, there's these six apps right here on like the live link. But if you support the content link tag in your live

item, I want to be able to add all of those as well. So if you're also streaming on YouTube, or rumble, or Twitch, or Facebook, or whatever, I want those apps to be able to populate on this list in addition to the six podcast apps. So I'm planning on adding support for the content link tag, just sort of parse those links out of Live item tags in the RSS feed.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And then in the in the Content link is so content link tag is an existing tag and your what you propose is as an enhancement to that basically, it's very, it's just a, it's a simple change, that just because you retracted your previous proposal, and now you've switched to just a a very simple change, which is allowing the content link to be in the item tag instead of just a live item tag. Nathan G.: Yeah, correct. So I want to I want to support it in

episodes FM for both live item, live items and regular items. So that podcasters can control the content, like I can control the links on this page without having to like come claim their feed with me and then Laura some interface and you know, like, oh, you you know, but in some cases, it's like, you know, I want to link to Patreon or some sort of like platform that I wouldn't have no way to programmatically find the Patreon link for a given episode. But you could put a

Content link tag in in your item. And say, here's where the Patreon version of this episode exists. Maybe it's an extended edition. Maybe it's just the ad free version, things like that, where there is another app where you can get this content, but maybe it's not in this RSS feed. Could

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I limit it? So say I only want these to surface Nathan G.: right now? No, because I'm sort of like with this sort of cookie based model. I want visitors to you know, set that one cookie and then note that they can always go into their show, like can always trust that episodes FM will take

them into their preferred podcast app. So I am thinking about that for like the custom domains maybe like giving you more control in the custom domain setting, but I want sort of episodes.fm domain to be a like reliable service, or like, Yes, I'm somebody who always listens in, you know, Apple podcasts, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be able to hide the podcasting 2.0 apps, I don't really want to enable that

behavior, right? People, you're like, Hey, I'm a big fan of Pocket Casts, you're like, sorry, the podcast or sign up for my service. And they only really are aware of the top three apps. I don't really want to enable that behavior. Right. But it's kind of cool, because you have kind of customers, you have podcasters, who will be customers in the future, who can have custom setups. And you have listeners who can tailor this to, I guess, to their own needs.

That's what it is right now. Yeah, Nathan G.: I think potentially, the tension between trying to serve both of those parties who maybe have different goals is is the one of the difficult challenges of this, but I think I want to solve your Nathan gathright.

Unknown

He's gonna do this challenge. Just for breakfast. Got this?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yeah. Wow. That's cool, man. That's very cool. Congratulations. Nice. Thank you. Nice. Nice reveal. So what are we Dave now we just a promo show, and we got the buddy sprout guys want to promote their iOS app, you know, it's like, blueberry wants to promote his show. I mean, we're just like a regular regular show. Now. We're like the Tonight Show.

Dave JonesDave Jones

We should be getting a piece of the work for Nathan because he's not making any money. So Nathan G.: the one of the things I want to call out is the the OP three integration. So specifically, because podcasting 2.0 has op three, in their RSS feed, the sort order is based on podcasting. 2.0 is ranking?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Ah, all

Dave JonesDave Jones

right. So I don't understand that. Can you explain that Nathan G.: I go. So, you know, if you look at a Libsyn, like ranking of top apps, you know, Apple podcasts will be number one, and, you know, on like pod news and pod news, podcast pages, maybe like filter out the apps that aren't relevant for

your user agent. Okay, sort of an alternative approach to that is I just say, Well, what about the OP three stats for this exact show I, I can put the podcasting 2.0 apps at the very top of the list for podcasting 2.0 Because or pod news, weekly review or any of these apps where a significant portion of their audience is coming from these more niche apps, I can put it at the top of the ranking, because I know that's where the existing audiences, this new listener probably also will want

to listen where the existing audiences tell

Adam CurryAdam Curry

us about the search. How are you? How are you implementing this search. Nathan G.: So at the top level, the search is just doing iTunes search, because a lot of these platforms really rely on the iTunes ID as their link, like you cannot link to an overcast page without a show having an iTunes ID, things like that. So I want to make that better. But right now, it's just using the iTunes look up to find these shows. But then it's queering, the podcast index for most of the data.

Dave JonesDave Jones

So let me let me see it says, so let me ask you this. So are you doing this in this op? Three? Check? Are you doing that in real time? Yeah, cuz the line. Okay, the live stream? I mean, that's, that must be happening is happening now. Nathan G.: Yeah. Like, the OP three check is really kind of just to sort the apps. It's not deciding what apps to to. It doesn't have like the episodes specific link for pod verse.

It's just linking to the Show page. And then the listener has to click in from the Show page to the Live episode themselves. But I maintain that repository full of all the URL link patterns for show level and episode level links. If the podcasting 2.0 apps that support live want to provide a like sort of like, programmatic way that I could link straight to the live stream, I'd be happy to support that for any of these, any of these, like apps that

Adam CurryAdam Curry

we have so so I go to podcast and 2.0. It shows pod verse at the top than Apple podcasts Pocket Casts. This is based upon the OP three data. Yes. Nathan G.: So it's the OP three data combined with the the user agent of the device that you're on. So if you view this exact same page on an Android phone or an iPhone or Mac, the sort order is all going to be slightly different. To do that

Dave JonesDave Jones

back now, very interesting. Nathan G.: Yeah, yeah, Spurlock released some new API's for me this week that basically let you get the global ranking of apps for a given user agent or for a given device. So on Android phones, they're still you know, downloads that are being attributed to Apple podcast. Maybe they're listening in the web player. Maybe it's apps. Oh, that's fascinating. Stealing Apple podcast is user age and living thing.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

So it's

Dave JonesDave Jones

different Elma my

Adam CurryAdam Curry

web browser brave. I get pod verse Apple podcasts Pocket Casts G Potter player FM, on my Android also brave fountain pod verse podcast, attic antenna pod podcast guru. This is dynamite. Man. This is very interesting.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And I'm on the iPhone. So I get fountain pod verse, overcast podcast, Guru castbox.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Overcast does show up on my list, which is impossible on the Android but it's way down the list. So that's you broke it. Nathan G.: I don't I don't hide. I don't hide any hide anything. Yeah, I got Yeah, they all just get shuffled further down the page, if they don't have a significant market share on that device type. Fabulous.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I love it. And I'm assuming that for the live stuff that you've probably you've probably just got, do you have hard coded just the apps the support live and then you just shuffle them? According to what the order is? is in mobi? Three. Nathan G.: Yeah, definitely. Okay, okay. How's this? So amazing, man, it's

Adam CurryAdam Curry

really cool. How strim scribd.fm doing? You know, it's Nathan G.: not quite taken off. I think it's essentially just like a wrapper around the deep Graham transcription service. But let's do pay in Satoshi. So I haven't really been able to devote, you know, more resources to figuring out what else it could become, besides just that, you know, it hasn't paid for, you know, its own domain name, just yet.fm domains are pricier than people are willing to pay SATs for transcripts. But

yes, you have to I would love to use it. But you know, you know what my problem is? is I need Speaker Labels. Nathan G.: Yeah, it Yeah, it does. It does the speaker identification, then it throws in, you know, Speaker One, Speaker two, and it'll get confused by all the little ISOs. And other soundboard things of are those additional speakers, the same speaker. So deep Graham is not so fantastic at that I can see why fountain and other and transistor and other people

don't do. They don't support any of that. So I wasn't really going to like do the engineering effort to build that on my own. It was like, if deep Graham, you know, implement something like that, then happy to pull those. I'll switch away from otter the minute you have that. I mean, because I have to say I'm pretty impressed with

otter, it's also gotten a little bit faster. But you know, if I haven't spoken to see, I forget what it was, though, even with this show, it'll probably pick up your voice and auto detect and tag your speaker number as you in this episode. It's good at that. I mean, all Nathan G.: that sort of like fingerprinting thing is Yeah, to me, but very interesting. Yeah. No, because that's the only reason why well, I don't use you because I'd really love to support you. But it's just yeah,

Dave JonesDave Jones

I got any kind of got Sherlock to but Apple podcast transcript. Yeah. Nathan G.: It, but it also supports a lightning payment API. So you can without even using the interface. It's called the l 402. API, which is basically, you know, provide a URL to a piece of audio and ask, like, Hey, I'd like to transcribe this, I look at the duration, I generate an invoice, I send that back to you, you, you know, pay that invoice and send send back like sort of like proof of payment with a second

API request and then receive the full transcript. So I think like, there's something there and building lightning payment API's for various services, like if true fans wants to transcribe

things, and just wants to pay a third party service. I want to see, you know, pod verse and true fans, and maybe some other parties maybe make some services that they use, you know, they they build it for themselves, but then they allow other podcasting apps to also take advantage of it and be compensated for that effort.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Oh, cool. Very cool.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Can we talk? Can we talk about the follow tag? Yes. The so what and what had happened is, you know, we had this, I guess we had this idea of putting content links, or excuse me, you had proposed putting content links into the feed for all the different places where a show would live. So for all the spot, Spotify tags, Spotify links, I mean, all these different places. You can either watch the show is

similar. I mean, this the content link, but then Kevin from Buzzsprout, said, who you know, that's for a hosting company that has 300,000 feeds. Bandwidth is always an issue if you make his every, every little addition to the RSS feed causes their cost to go up by a large amount just because As of the volume, and so rather than putting, you know, 50 content links in, in each item, you had said, Well, why don't we do change the structure around and put all the follow links, but

all the content links into an external file? And then relink to it with a tag? Is that you want to flesh that out a bit. Nathan G.: Yeah. So initially, I wanted, I was imagining Content link, it could scale from live item to item to channel, and just sort of walk that back and say, like, okay, Content link,

it's just for live item. And item is my proposal. If you put 50 of them in for, you know, you don't really have 50 live streaming platforms, but you know, so you put like, three in for live item, maybe you want to put two or three in at the item level. And maybe you don't do it for every single episode, maybe you just do it. For like, Hey, I'm putting in one link per episode, you know, because Patreon. And that's, that's all you do, or maybe one link per episode for the YouTube video

for this episode. Let that be sort of at the like discretion of the podcaster. But the follow tag would be separate for the channel. And so there'd be an external json file to link out to pod verse Apple, Spotify, overcast, whatever. So obviously, episodes, FM has like 30 plus links here that I'm able to get programmatically. There's another 30 links that I can't

get programmatically. You know, the Youtube playlist for a show is not something that is as easy for me to find as the apple podcasts URL for a show, given an RSS feed, that sort of thing. So if podcasters want to add more apps to their episodes, FM page, I want to give them a way to do that in the feed without having to come claim their show, and then manually add those

links. And if you're hosted on Buzzsprout, or transistor, your web page already includes those links, there already is some part of the admin UI where they can say like, oh, yeah, here's

my Amazon Music link. And here's my XYZ link, and whatever. So the podcast follow tag is just my proposal for, hey, this should be in the feed to the feed is the way that the podcaster or the host, it's their API with the all the players and all the other services, I'd love for them to put all those links in a JSON file, just sort of be a self verification method. So I can say like, Okay, I could go use

Amazon musics API that's behind a, you know, NDA and 10. Other signatures, I tried to do this when I was still running public, reached out to people at Amazon music, tried to get an Amazon Music button on the page. And it was nearly impossible because of Spotify legal had to review a contract. And then Amazon music had to review a contract. I'm like, I just want to link to a podcast on No, I'm not trying to, like, why did why do lawyers

need to be involved when I just want to, like, grab a link. And Amazon music just couldn't make that easy for me. And Spotify couldn't make that easy for me. And I was like, you know, the, this is really between the podcasters. And the listeners, the podcasters, should be able to write the links to their shows Amen. And they shouldn't have to go through me as a

middleman, that it should just be in the RSS feed. So I think the follow tag is after, you know, hearing by the sprouts argument of like, yeah, we're not going to add, you know, 10, or even, you know, much less 50 links to various platforms, right in the feed itself, maybe you will link it in a JSON file. I sort of rewrote the proposal to sort of split those two use cases. So channel level links, and a podcast follow tag item or live item links and a Content link tag.

Because of the looking at your, the schema or your JSON structure here, it's it's very, it's very simplistic. I mean, the first, there's different types of things. So you have like a basic example. And then you have some social links. I mean, I guess the first thing that hits me is me is there's some need for like a type parameter, or a type

property that differentiates these things. Yeah, the media link, and this other one is a social link, or, yeah, Nathan G.: in my mind, every single link should refer to this show. And whatever this show means. And presumably, it has equivalent, you know, sub items for episodes. Just, you know, the same sort of thing like that, like, yes, you might have a, you know, a social interact tag that has all the same information in it. I didn't really think social links would

be, you know, a compelling use case here. It was just sort of fleshing out what you were talking about with trying to get links like to that extent, but I think the basically the sample and the multiple links to the same domain example are the two

that I think are really interesting. But type, I really was just trying to keep this as like bare bones as possible so that hosts don't have a lot more you don't have to had don't have to add any more UI to their existing interface where they let podcasters like supply additional links beyond what

they're what they're doing right now. I think, any app that like wants to parse these, they can just look at the domain name and group them for their own purposes, just because some podcaster throws any arbitrary link in here doesn't mean I'm going to show it on episodes FM, I'm going to check against like an allow list and say like, do I already have an icon for this app? Like, oh, I'll show rumble because I have a rumble icon. But I'm not going to show some, you know, xyz.com link just

because you put it in your RSS feed. So I'm, you know, trying to serve, serve the needs of the listeners and the podcasters. And trying to strike a right happy balance in between those two things. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Because this looks essentially like a programmatic, programmatic way to do to, like deliver a link tree or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The longer with your show, Nathan G.: episodes of em kind of is a link tree type service in and of itself. And I just

Adam CurryAdam Curry

like Link tree for podcasts.

Dave JonesDave Jones

VC give that guy some money. Nathan G.: I did talk to the link tree CEO. Soon after I sold pod Lincoln. He was like, Oh, we were kind of interested. And they ended up acquiring song, the dot link, which eventually themselves a couple years after I started paddling, opened up pods dot link, and I was like, Oh, I really relate to the party if you're if you're having to go buy pods. Wow, it just seems it just seems like a it just seems like a good idea to deliver that as part of this as tied to the

feed. Yeah, well, you don't? Yeah, yeah. The feed itself into turn, you know, is saying here, here's what, here's where you can find this other stuff. You know, I think that makes a whole lot of sense. Because this is so the other. The other one you had was the country tag. And this is this is, you know, we haven't had a good flame war. And while

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I don't know, meta data drama was pretty big, as far as I'm concerned

Dave JonesDave Jones

till this week, as well. And then we had some face melting, you know, nobody got muted or blocked that I know of, but, but the country tag almost became that to everybody's like, this sucks, you know, like, Okay, well, people have such, like, intense, like, feelings about the country tag. And I was like, Okay, it's Benjamin Bellamy. You know, he wanted, he wanted this. And it's basically just the country of origin. It's just tagging the feed with the country of origin that the

podcast is from? Yeah. That's a miss. That's it. Right?

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yeah, that's crazy. To me. Nathan G.: I think the problem is, most podcast apps don't really have a use for that. But if you look at Apple podcasts, they have a storefront that's unique for every single show. So their discover, you know, homepage, to get you into new shows is precisely divided along those lines. And that's never

been in the feet. So for the same reason that I proposed, like the update frequency tag, I thought, you know, things that end up in Apple podcasts, it'd be great if they were had a source of truth in the feed. So I could see this influencing, you know, if Apple ever decides to, you know, use this tag to help them identify shows that are up and coming in a given country, you know, maybe that's useful, you can see that true fans has a has a little toggle for searching by that, you know,

it can be useful in those sorts of use cases. But if you're not going to pitch a use case, that really takes advantage of this and works, whether this has low adoption or high adoption. I think a lot of the tags really sort of suffer from like, the reason people want to deprecate some tags is because they have minimal utility at low adoption rates. And any proposal I've written, I try to make sure that it still has utility, even if it

has a really low adoption rate. So that the flywheel is greased from, oh, you know, this app supports it. So now these hosts support it. Now these hosts support it now this app supports it, and you can get that virtuous cycle that increases adoption, but it doesn't have to wait until 100% adoption before it's useful.

Dave JonesDave Jones

I understand the the hesitancy about the country tag or the that's not the right word unders understand the understand people that look may look at it and say that's a useless tag. I'm sympathetic to that. But at the same time, like I can see it from the other side, too, because to us for like for me, I, I I don't this tag does not excite me in the least. But that's because the US has a gigantic, I mean, dominance within podcasting. I mean, like, there's just it's so what if

you're just another podcast from the US? It's kind of an irrelevant thing. But I think from Mike Benjamin standpoint, French podcasting But that's a big deal. Yeah, and or Italian, if you're an Italian podcaster, those are smaller communities. And it sort of it has meaning to it. But within that, within that culture that you are a French podcast, or that you're even from, that you're even produced in France. So I think that like, some of these, like I can imagine, okay, like if you're a

podcaster in, do you remember? Adam, that guy that sent us? A link to an OPML? file with like, 100? podcasts from Kazakhstan? Yes. Yeah, I

Adam CurryAdam Curry

do. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave JonesDave Jones

So if you're in Kazakhstan, and you've only and there's only 100 podcasts in the entire country. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

You want exclusion is good for exclusionary searches. Yeah.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And it's, it kind of puts you, it identifies you in this local, I mean, the same thing that I Potter did I mean, everything is separated by geographic region, I don't know there's a little bit of a, I think the bigger your podcasts, zone is, for lack of a better term, then the less meaningful this this is to you. But the smaller your community, it, I can see this being pretty meaningful. And I'm really not

opposed to it. These kinds of tags, that I think I've said this before, these these tags that may have limited usefulness, like you said, like, you know, low usefulness at a low adoption rate. These things just don't bother me. Because if somebody is out there, like, here's what it here's my thing, if it never hurts to have more information in the feed, like it just that it's there's never a time when having more metadata

in the feed is a bad thing. So even if even if most people or a lot of platforms ignore it, if there's one platform or app out there, that sees this metadata in there and says, Oh, that's kind of cool, and comes up with a cool use case for it. It's a win. It's a win, maybe for, let's say, out of 400,000 active podcasts. It's a win for maybe 700 of them. That's fine. It's still a win. Like, yeah, I don't see the downside for that. Nathan G.: Yeah, I don't think the podcast apps need to all act

in lockstep to support all features. Part of the reason I made steno FM was specifically to sort of demonstrate a different UX to transcripts than I was seeing any of the other 2.0 apps adopted, they were all sort of doing a caption style. No, Allah YouTube will show one line at a time and was like, I really want to see the read the whole thing while I'm listening. And that's the sort of UX that Apple podcasts ended up going with. For that same sort of reason, I think, a bunch of the

other tags that have low adoption rate, that's fine. It's not like we are not trying to have everybody act in lockstep. If a tag doesn't prove useful now, but maybe proves useful, you know, two years from now, we, you know, we shouldn't have removed it in the meanwhile, I don't I don't really see what the advantages of taking some tags out of the namespace. Because they're not proving you know, because they're not

reaching high adoption right now. I don't like is there some sort of, you know, besides true fans, I don't know any app that is like actively trying to make sure they check off every single box, you know, Content link, and follow our

Adam CurryAdam Curry

tree tag and create new ones that don't exist.

Nathan G.: Content, follow our two tags that I don't see most of the podcast app apps actually adopting, but services like episodes, FM, and other and you know, other things that come along, I think that makes total sense for so it's not that we need to all be copying each other, and having the exact same UX in all these various apps, in order to pressure the more you know, the bigger, more market share apps, I think we can all just sort of carve our own path and it's a marketplace of ideas

to see what features listeners are actually clamoring for.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Yeah, I agree. And some of these are some of these are visionary things that that they look they're really ambitious in what they want. And so you have this sort of like trickle trickle trickle and who knows maybe five years from now all of a sudden this may book a specific use case comes up a specific app begins to use this in a neat way and then lots of people do it. I mean, look at what just happened with transcripts not transcripts was a successful tag from the

beginning. But it never but it did not all of a sudden it had it has now gone into a launch phase because Apple podcast adopted it. And now you know, it triggered this, this this waterfall of lip you know lips and and other hosting companies hurrying to adopt the tag. So it doesn't take much to have a tag go from, you know, just mare adoption rate to something

really impressive in a short period of time. Time. And and I don't I don't feel comfortable putting arbitrary limits on how long that that process is supposed to take a look at RSS 2.0. Look at the original RSS 2.0 spec. There's still elements in there that are not used today very often, like the source element. You never see that tag in use, but it's still in the spec. And if you ask Dave wanted to remove it, he's gonna you know, he's gonna He's gonna block

Adam CurryAdam Curry

jump on a block you block you. Yeah, Dave, I don't want to be the party pooper here, but it's 148. And you have a heart out because you are a single handedly taking care of tax returns for all of the state of Alabama's commercial sector. Yes.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Okay, yeah, we want to thank some people. Yeah,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

well, yeah, actually, that we can kind of do a, a two prong thing here because we're getting a lot of live booths. And some of them are responsive to the conversation. So we'll we'll kick it off with that. And I want to thank Steven B for testing whatever he's testing during the show because it makes it sound very active. He's testing the split kits soundboard different sounds for SATs.

Dave JonesDave Jones

There's a lot of pew pew

Adam CurryAdam Curry

he's a big pew pew anonymous with a row of ducks. 2222 Thank you very much. So Stephen B is sending all kinds of amounts. He's testing something with a soundboard which sounds exciting. Chad F 2222. He says hearing a lot of pews just want to feel included. Pew pressure. Whoo. Pew pressure. I like that. Sam Sethi column 5000 SATs Colin, try tag. Colin on show try tag is step one. Great for analytics. Also

showing podcasts in your country on the homepage. This works best for international if you combine this with the location tag, you get the best geolocation Do you understand exactly what he's saying? Nathan G.: He was saying country tag not Contra. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's Yeah, I think you're right. It's that's autocorrect thanks, Apple. Country tag. Yes, I think you're right. Now the 5000 SATs from Sam Sethi. Here you go.

This is for you asking for a friend. But why? Why would any app want to show links via the content link to external apps, we work hard to get users to use our app. The first thing we don't want to show is other apps. And I still don't understand the follow idea. Nathan G.: I think this is the first tag not for Sam Sethi. Yeah

Dave JonesDave Jones

move on moving on. Nathan G.: There are more apps in the ecosystem than just podcast players episodes FM is now one there's other services out there and we're going to use this tag and it's not for the podcast players themselves it's for getting listeners to you the way that in the way that episodes FM is a podcast app link tree will you know true fans will always be on that list. Is a funnel is a fun as a podcast funnel. Yeah

Adam CurryAdam Curry

1000 SATs from Dobby das he says Happy 25th Birthday RSS Yeah, that's right. It is 21st birthday of RSS. Another 5000 from San Ceci we do want to use the transcribe.fm love l dot 402 Like Adam though I need to link speaker link to person tag

which is what we do today. Yes, that's understood 3333 from circus media and other informative and entertaining board meeting thank you for your courage gentlemen circus media and then 13 696 from Burberry This is an add one weekend to bring this 12 Rod stream to life this is the next contract he's working on and holy wow we have covered a ton of ground already we've got a mock up live is lit sign banners sewn ready to be painted camera angles nailed lighting quote squared away RSS

feeds have been made. We've got GIF art screen printed art for T shirts. We're going to be onboarding three bands for this show alone and the venue gets a feed I think he meant split but the venue gets a feed maybe they get a feed I don't know. And he sends in another 13 696 Boost saying that there's going to be

a goat drive. What's the goat what's a ghost drive you ask the boardroom as he or she would the most goats murdered by the end of the 10 minute round well winner prize that's on the behind the schemes that will be after no agenda this Sunday live so Yeah, whenever you boost the right amount of goat get slaughtered. It's a very friendly show. 5150 from tone record, kapow. Thank you, brother. And let me see. Then I hit the limiter. So yeah, Europe, Dave.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh, let's see we've got we got a couple of pay pals. We get and they're both real. They're related. There is a

Adam CurryAdam Curry

they're in a relationship.

Dave JonesDave Jones

They're in a relationship for three $300 from the boys at blueberry the boys and girls I believe. Oh, thank you.

Unknown

Sakala 20 is blades on am Paula.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Thank you.

Dave JonesDave Jones

There is no see there's no yeah, there's a note. The note is go podcasting.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I gotcha. I gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Nice

Dave JonesDave Jones

and a $30 a month new subscription from Todd and Robin new media show.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Oh, thank you boys. Appreciate that. Yeah. I feel bad that we rag on him.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Now that I know,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

hey, new media show we tagged them. Yeah.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Thanks. Thanks for that, Rob. I mean, I appreciate that. Todd from Northern Virginia says big central Richards 11111 podcast index website says Dave, I'm fascinated by the beef milkshake. Could you spend 30 seconds to explain what it is and most importantly, why 30 is the I don't need 30 seconds. It is the it is three ice cubes. This is in a blender. Three Ice cubes. A cup of milk. A scoop of

whey protein isolate, and a scoop of equipped foods. grass fed beef protein hydrolyzed beef protein from equip foods.com That is that is the recipe. Enjoy. Yummy yum Yeah, the the equip foods thing is it's chocolate specifically as chocolate. It's, it's a little pricey, but it's it's high quality. Do you fall Okay, see, we got Joe Jean Everett 1111 Small central Richards

Adam CurryAdam Curry

he just says boost. Thank you very much. Boost.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Another one from Jean Everett 8888. And he says that's the fountain he says boost boost boost. Yes, yes. Yes. Boost boost boost. 3333 from Jean Everis as boost.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I'm running out.

Dave JonesDave Jones

He's on fire. He's like a countdown or something. He's doing like it like three to one. I'm afraid something's gonna happen on the next hack my computer. Mere Mortals podcast 2222 roadex. Their true friends. True fans. He says app development must be hard. It is isn't it Nathan? I was showcasing V for V music at my BTC meetup. And some people tried searching by category. Others wanted to play right away. Others look for non V for V artists at regrow my hair just

to pull it out again if I tried building an app. Yeah. So this is classic. This is classic behavior. And I'm sure Nathan you you've experienced this. dozens of times. You get everything working perfectly in your app. It's it's it's it's polished, it's working great. You're like, Hey, you hand it to somebody in like, Hey, check this out. In the first thing they they tried to do is something you never anticipated. And you're like, Oh crap. They do sometimes. Virtually

Adam CurryAdam Curry

my job is. Hey, how can we doesn't do this? Yep.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Or you're like, you're like, Oh, I never thought I never even thought that this, that they would try to type that into this then. Nathan G.: My, my, my favorite, that's a that's a classic sort of, you know, user research problem where a designer will like oh, and then they'll do this, they'll do this. And I'm like, great. Let's put it in front of some people. Like let's

just put the mock ups let's not build it. And let's just put those mock ups in front of you know, five people and see if they do what you expect or whether your expectations were misaligned with the average person will do exactly and it'll it's you know, there's a there's a gift of some people the drinking a glass of water wrong, like they're licking the side. I just posted it in the chat. This is my, like, favorite UX research meme.

That's very funny. Like my favorite is the like the the one with the person who keeps putting all the shapes in the square hole. Yes, exactly. Like this misaligned, would you say misaligned incentives, misaligned expectations, expectation, this aligned expectations? Totally.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I do think that that's great. I Nathan G.: lean a lot into that when I am designing to say, you know, the user is going to expect this to behave this way. I'm going to, like use that to my advantage.

Dave JonesDave Jones

That needs to be a teacher of podcasting. 2.0 misaligned expectations Jean been 20 to 22 He says yesterday if I think sharing the data for an LLM is fine. Okay, well, cool. Yes. I gave it to him. Yeah.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

That's a very famous company. Actually. It's

Dave JonesDave Jones

we can't say it they don't they want to keep it on the download. So I didn't say anything. No, you know, we can say the name. Wow. Yeah, I asked specifically, and I was like, alright, and they were like, no, let's not say that. Oh, okay. Do you never 5555 they found and he says boost boost boost. Yeah, this is a countdown to get we got a 7777 There's gotta be a 6666 in here somewhere. I probably that was dangerously close to the mark of say, oh, no, no, no. Mere Mortals podcast

essential Richard's a small one. He says oops. Forgot to boost last week love what found is done with incorporating social features into podcasting. It was a lonelier time when they weren't around. I used to feel like I came into p 2.0. Late but now I can be an old timer to start my sentences with I remember when feels good bit history. When I was a kid, yeah, back then a day. Let's say Oh, user, this this boost of 105 sets is from user 213988710. I'm fountain. On fountain Yes. And

he says the trusted. Okay.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

All right. Thank you. You are trusted. Yes.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Thank and Thank you Jean Everett for that 4444 boost of the see and there it is 6666 There it is. He says booster to

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Yes, I always say boost the toot read it was it. Retweet the tweet booster to slash the ex? Na.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Oh, and here we go. delimiter commentator, a blogger 23,000 SATs through fountain. He says howdy David Adam. Please inform your audience by visiting my cartoon blog at www dot CSB dot lol and encourage them to follow me on Twitter or x.com at CSB. All followers will have the privilege of asking me up to three questions daily. You see is

Adam CurryAdam Curry

a rare, rare self promotion. rare one.

Dave JonesDave Jones

What a special privilege.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Second prize six questions

Dave JonesDave Jones

let's see. Oh,

Adam CurryAdam Curry

we have a late late comer both booths from Jay Moon 10,033 sets. He says I was going to tally boost you but I looked at the fees. Nevermind. Yes. Thank you. Yeah,

Dave JonesDave Jones

you feel you know, oh, this is great. I sent so I sent my I sent my brother in law. He he did my personal taxes. So I was like well let me acid let me pay you. He's like go you don't have to pay me. I was like, No, I'm gonna pay you. I said let me let me just send you some bitcoin. And he was like, Okay, sure. So I got into that he got on the strike app. And then so and I sent it to him I sent him like $200 with a

Bitcoin. And like I did that yesterday. And within like five minutes it was down like 5% I was like, it's usually not like this. I'm

Adam CurryAdam Curry

sorry. Buy more buy more. It's up above 70 Again, so really?

Dave JonesDave Jones

Like this is this is where this is where you your natural

Adam CurryAdam Curry

great isn't a great, don't you love? Oh,

Dave JonesDave Jones

see? Did you get the one from chyron

Adam CurryAdam Curry

blueberry said 2222 the venue we're streaming from Taylor sound is gonna get set up with their own RSS feed to release concerts on Okay, great. That's good. That's what he was talking about. Nice.

Dave JonesDave Jones

Okay. See, I'm trying to make sure that I get I think was that I think I had some I think I had some come in. After. Yeah, we came this came in after the delimiter I think

Adam CurryAdam Curry

I didn't see anything after the delimiter I can double check but

Dave JonesDave Jones

I got one from debased ghost. I don't have that one. Can the music and this is 11,000 says Can the music in the podcast index be made available to DJ in the same way SoundCloud? Title and Apple music tracks are bonus points. If a recorded DJ set automatically timestamps tracks to polish and music podcast with song links. Double Dog points of algorithm enabled streaming sets while DJing in the app will mean yeah, all this is yeah, it's all possible. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

But is he asking for a DJing app that allows you to DJ and mix stuff?

Dave JonesDave Jones

I don't know Maybe you can tell us more way

Adam CurryAdam Curry

yes, the longer boost with a higher amount earlier

Dave JonesDave Jones

and then we had to know another one from Karen 2022. I think these are just ones that I missed. Now I love the two of you together analyzing the high level POC stuff helps make sense of things that are distracting and making a more active effort to support v for the projects like blueberry show, book testing true fans and chatting with App devs. Like Jason I believe Eric D for V will win regardless but don't want my complacency to demoralize actual builders and

Adam CurryAdam Curry

devs. There you go. That's what we need a lot more of that thinking.

Dave JonesDave Jones

And we got some monthlies. We get Christopher hyperbaric $10 Thank you, Christopher. Mitch Downey $10 run for cover Mitch heads down. Terry Keller $5 Chris Cowan $5 Damon cast Jack $15 Paul Saltzman $22.22 Yaren Rosenstein $1 Jerry Derek J. Vickery, the best name in podcasting. $21, Jeremy gerdts, $5 and Michael Hall $5.50. And that's our group.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Thank you all for supporting podcasting 2.0 You're not just supporting the podcast, but you're really supporting the entire project. Dave and I get none of this, we just put it onto the node for opening up channels for people who need liquidity. Hit me up if you need that on podcast, index dot social, I just got another request. So make sure you do that. That's what it's there for. And if you go to podcast index.org down at the bottom, there's two red donate buttons

one for your pay pal for Fiat fun coupons. We'd love those. And tally coin if the fees aren't too high, but what we really want you to do is go to new podcast apps.com and grab yourself a modern podcast app, fill up that wallet and boost us boosts us through the modern system. Everybody wins that way. Thank you so much for supporting podcasting. 2.0 and Nathan sorry that we're little short today but I think we we got a lot of good info out of you and a good product launch.

Nathan G.: Yeah, appreciate it.

Unknown

We're gonna launch

Dave JonesDave Jones

my Tech's this season day job so it's a deadline day to day so I gotta get back to race. No

Adam CurryAdam Curry

worries. All right. Nathan, have yourself a great weekend. I'm sure you come on after somebody buys this and then fires. So we'll be seeing you soon. No doubt. Dave take care of the corporations. They're in Alabama. Thank you very much boardroom and everybody have a great weekend. Thanks, guys. See you. Okay, all right, brothers. We'll be back next Friday right here podcasting 2.0 to bring you all the latest it's going down the past to present the future and the now of podcasting.

Unknown

You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org for more information.

Adam CurryAdam Curry

Go podcast said you're not doing it

Dave JonesDave Jones

right. I'm holding it wrong.

Transcript source: Provided by creator in RSS feed: download file