Episode 169: Wifi & Web Apps

podcasting 2.0 for March 1 2024, episode 169 We've got Wi Fi and web apps. Well, hello, everybody. Welcome once again to this Friday. That means it's time for an official board meeting. That's right. Podcasting. 2.0 It's not just 2.0 is all podcasting. It all goes down here we tell you what's going on. Podcast. index.org podcasting to.org podcast index dot social. Yes. It's the boardroom that actually

It's always great to have a log of events that tell you at the exact same timestamp server booted server did not boot like

that must have been scary this morning when that happened. Well,

so this has been coming for a while the live migration of our main database it's the biggest VM we have been coming for a while so they give what they do is they give you a heads up like heads up. We're gonna live

literally like heads up heads up now. Yeah, bring it bring it boys heads up. Yeah, that that quick, okay, I got you. We're gonna

live migrate your this, this instance. And I look at the instance name I'm like, Oh crap, that database. We're gonna live migrate this on March the first. And if at anytime before then it when you feel Froggy. You can enter the live migration the excuse me the warm migration queue yourself. You can you can choose to enter the queue. If you don't by this time, on this day, March 1, you're we're going to do we're just going to do it for you. And so no, no, of course, I've been

for how long for how long? Have you been putting it off?

Oh, two weeks, two weeks. And then I was like in now get a notice yesterday, you got 15 hours left.

So what happens if you don't comply? Yeah, they just want they

just do it for you. And you get what you get. I mean, like you don't, you're not you're not aware. I could have gone to sleep last night. And if it happened to mill the night, they would have just done it and it would have been like, Okay, well, I hope it works. So I woke up this morning, I had like an hour left before entering the queue. And so I was like, Well, I was lit I was literally sitting on the toilet with the scroll with the, with

the, with the Doom scroller, the scroller. Yeah.

And I was like, well, let's just, let's just rip the cord off this thing. Let's just see how this happens. And I'm like, and I log into Linode on the screw on the toilet scroller and hit migrate. And man's

like you couldn't even head over to command line. If you wanted to know

that. We'll see. I grabbed the Mac. As soon as I woke up this morning, I grabbed my laptop. And it was out of battery. And so yeah, and I was like, Well, I would have liked to have done this from a laptop. But I'll just, I'll just do it later. And then I'm on the toilet scroller and I'm looking at as like you have an hour left. And I'm like, crap. Well,

oh, well, literally crap just yet.

Okay, well, log in from Linode on safari, mobile. And, and it's hit and I was like, well, let's just do it. What the heck, yo, yo, yo, lo. And it worked. And so yeah, so I hit it. And then I was like, Well, you know, is probably got to, I'm assuming this. Okay, this is a they're calling it a warm migration. So I'm assuming that this is similar in this has to be similar in some kind of something.

It sounds geeky. I just the warm migration just sounds it doesn't sound great. It's like, you know, like, like a warm dish rag or something. You know, luke warm, wet dish rag in your face in the morning. A warm migration? I don't like the term. It's not great marketing. What

is the it's? It's, it's, it's not a migrant. It's a it's a traveler. Right. So warm travel

newcomer a newcomer

a warm newcomer, yes. Moist migration. That, so I'm assuming that this technology this warm migration technology is similar to VMware. I'm thinking I think that VMware may have invented this. So here's what you surprise me. Yeah, here's the basics, is you. You have you have a virtual machine and the virtual machine Does it copies the disk for a virtual machine you have. You have the basically the RAM, you

Right. And this should end the show this should happen within what 15 seconds. Is that the idea? Well,

on a on a local VMware system, I mean, this is it's almost instantaneous. It's microseconds, right? Just not market, it's milliseconds, the stun may may take less than one second, that users don't even know that any of this is happening. But they're moving from data center to data centers. So this is a lot

longer. Yeah. And does DNS come into play with all this as well?

I don't think so. No, I think they I think their DNS, they got a backhaul between their their data centers. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that when you whenever you when I see a stun, that's gonna take up to a minute, I'm like, Oh, that's not great. Right. You know, so I was, you know, I was waiting on this thing to start. And I thought, well, you know, I better just, it would probably be great if there was not very many riots going on in the database, because that's, that's

mean, when it comes to writing, we're heavy, heavy writing. Heavy, heavy, heavy writing. Yes.

And so just shut down. All the aggregators shut down the pod paying watcher, all that kind of stuff. And like, okay, radio silence on the rights. And then wait and hope and just cross your fingers. And then it and then John Spurlock posted, okay. It's days, like, you know, API errors now.

Oh, okay. Expected. Yeah, for a minute or so. Yeah. And,

um, as I go in, I'm like, check the log, and I'm still on the toilet. So I check the log. And I'm like, it because now I'm enraptured by this thing. I can't, you know, I can't get off the pot. So I'm like, Well, I look at I look at the log, and it says, You can't it says a server is a server booted. But then right after that, it says, server did not boot or server failed to boot. Oh, crap. Like, oh, man, now I'm

Well, and here's my question. Does your wife like mine? Sometimes knock on the door and go, What are you doing in there? You forget that.

You've been in there a long time ago. migrator server.

That's what you're calling it, huh? From now on, David, gotta go migrator server. All right. I'm writing that down. This is this is our new code.

On the command line.

Hey, before we we got a lot going on the board meeting today. Hello, boardroom and I see everybody there. I TBR rest in peace. Bob Heil. He passed away today. Oh, this is shame from Bob Heil. And I would say that in the very early days of podcasting, everybody This was this was before the before the SMB seven. Everybody had to have a Heil. Pr 40 The high LP I still have one. In fact it's hooked up. A Tina uses that one sounds great on her voice. And it really Yeah. And Bob Heil

that's that's the the PR 40 That's, that's The MR great mic is not a mic a lot of people can use in their house though is it?

No yeah it is. No, it's a it's a splitter. It's a top end splitter

doesn't it just pick up everything? Oh world? No,

no, no, no. In fact I'll open right now let me see if I open it up over here. Let's see what happens it's here it's wide open and I'll I'll hit it there. No, you don't hear anything. Oh,

I thought it was a cardioid I thought it was like a like a not a cardio like a ribbon mic. No,

no, no, this is spinner it's a front end spitter you know even has a people put a you know, it has a little attachment for a windscreen but I've never used the windscreen with it. It's great. It's a great mic.

Okay. I thought Yeah, I thought it was too noisy for normal normal person.

And and then the I was very excited today by super excited I could not believe how excited asked me how excited I was.

How excited were you now I

was super duper excited.

We're getting I get I get the feel for this. Yes. Starting to understand.

Tony Cavanna I'm Tony has a podcast index dot social idea. I'm not sure where where Tony comes from or what Tony does. Tony see. Tony see. Yeah, what does Tony see do? I know.

I don't know. I follow him on on Mastodon and I've never fully understood what he does. Well, he has

an account on our server. And what he has done is he discovered that rumbled video platform rumble now has RSS feeds with mp4 enclosures.

This was this announced anywhere well,

so I immediately texted him Moe because I know Moe mirrors his stuff to rumble because he's a YouTube guy still, he's waiting. And he says no, they he says I received an

Yeah. Oh for sure.

Pod verse plays video pod verse plays video cue I

mean Apple karaoke video. Yeah, isn't Do you know, but here's the cool

thing with the with the podcast or wallet or one of the partner apps. You can now do value for value video. Oh, yeah. Right through rumble. I mean this this is this blows my mind. I can't believe they did this. This is exactly what YouTube should be doing.

YouTube's doing the opposite their RSS feeds away. They're

sucking them in and chopping them up their their teeth are dashing on the RSS feeds. This is I've been? I'm just blown away by it. I don't understand. I mean, I understand what they've done. But I don't know what their business their public companies. I don't know what their business model is. I have no idea how that works. But go rumble.

I don't know what their business model is either. I mean, how do they make money? Well, they

went public and everyone got a whole bunch of money and their happiness. I don't think they can't right now. They bought locals. I believe they acquired locals. And I think it's advertising I think they have advertising on on the website. But I revenue share type thing with the likely I mean doesn't rumble has. Russell Brand has a lot of pretty big names they brought over to their platform, so they're paying people to do something.

And so Glenn Greenwald went to rumble. Yep, they left and went to locals and then local, local. Yeah, exactly.

He's back with rumble. But that's a big deal. I mean, then that so Mo's like Okay, let's get it going. And I wonder how they publish their live stuff. I'm sure they're not doing a lit tag obviously.

Have you looked at the feed like if you looked at the XML of the feed I have? Is it does it deliver anything interesting at the top of itself?

I did not look for declarations. I don't know if it declared a gender. Let me see.

This is what is his what is his his thing named Tony see, well, he

posted the link on on the mastodon so and he is he or is what is he? He's Tony. Where is he? He's

rock flux on the

rock flux rownum nuoc flux, Roc

KFLU X.

Yeah, let me see. I know I replied to him. So let me see if I can find it. Various rock flux. I got the I got flux you got the feed.

I got to feed. Let's see what else you got to see you got

the fee you it's been a it's a huge

layers. It declares iTunes namespace not podcasting. Not podcast namespace so that's there doesn't need to stay this number needs

to change but you know what, there's someone inside rumble who has who switched on and has somehow I don't think management went you know we need to have RSS feeds

Yeah That wasn't a management issue that was not a top down

not thinking that so it was yeah so it's very simple it's just got the basics, but maybe it wasn't a decision I mean they announced it in their in their email so boy let's find out who's who's working over that rumble and let's see if we can get him to declare some namespace stuff.

Yeah, there's gotta be a sysadmin that can drop that in the in the in the header.

There's always a dude named Ben somewhere. You can talk to

any caravan? Yeah,

I just think that's a caravan or Cavanna I thought was Cara Cavanna is a caravan caravan.

Caravan caravan Tony Tony caravan caravan.

I'm break sided by that.

There's some breaking news. Looks like John Spurlock just posted that Apple is walking back the decision to kill PW A's

I can hear Sam Sethi pouring another glass of wine. Yeah.

He got he caught spicy. COVID Evidently because this is fired up. Taylor Swift. COVID. So what do you said? Yeah, yeah, he was fired up about like this. I like spicy. Sam. That was a that was a great read.

Why? Why were they going to I don't never understood why they were going to kill off PW A's.

I don't know if they fully didn't I don't think they ever said. I mean, people were just trying to infer that I don't think they ever actually said

the thing that that makes me laugh is you know, so we get spicy. Sam, he's all pissed off about the three $2 trillion company, bro, we knew this was day was coming. When Apple opened the app store. We knew this day was coming. We knew it. I mean, these days would be here proprietary app stores? It's like, really? Are we surprised?

Yeah, that I've avoided the whole apple EU thing, because it's just the whole thing is a complete joke. It's a complete joke that I mean, like, the, I don't know, if you've seen the calculators, you know, they they charge and they charge a per user amount. If you have an alternate app store, they charge a per user install fee of like a certain

is this a standard thing? We don't have to talk about it. I don't care. Why No, it's all things. When I met Steve Jobs, his whole idea was that the iPhone was the iPod Touch. And it will be Wi Fi only and web apps. That was his idea. He told me web apps, he never wanted to do an app store. Now I'm not going to say that was a bad idea. business wise, it was genius. But that was always the plan was white, no snow carrier, Wi Fi and web apps, which is another great show title.

In the beginning. He was all big on on web apps. And he wanted to it mean honestly, he did as much the iPhone did as much to push html5 as as Chrome or anything because he you know, he wrote the famous letter killing flat or you know, like, opposing flash

virus. I remember that. It was It honestly, it was. It was a real problem. And he wanted he

wanted to kill flash and move everything out mobile Safari went in both feet with a with html5. Yeah, I mean, I think I think you can lay the progress of html5 and standard web standards. I think you could say make a good argument that that was as much Apple's mobile Safari as it was Chrome. I'm there

I'm there. And then they killed him and then that was the end of all the good stuff. Yeah.

This is an add on Abra brought a couple of clips are now brought a clip. Yeah, I think I brought a clip and I forgot what you brought a

clip and an ISO. Yeah, okay.

I want to I think this is important is speaking of pod news. I think this clip From. So Paul throt needs he does Windows weekly. But he also does another podcast, which is called first ring daily.

What's it called?

Don't watch it. It's called first ring daily first ring Mimbres Ring Ring. First ring is ring daily. It's an as a reference to the old windows 10 initial idea of when they first released Windows 10. They were going to move away from from Windows Update Style releases that everybody got to something called rains update rain.

I didn't I don't even know about this. Yeah,

it's it's a little short lived. It was maybe a year or two, that they were going to do these these update rings. And you can define different computers and put them in different rings.

Oh, but don't computers do that. Now they look for something on your network and the update it from another computer. Yeah,

that's peer to peer update sharing. But this was this was like, Okay, I want to have this group of people. And they're going to be in in the beta ring. And this group

is like an admin nightmare. Oh,

it will Yes, it doesn't exist anymore. For this reason, it was a complete chaos. So beware that. So he does this show. And it's like 15 minutes in the morning, every morning during the week. So he starts talking about a something that happened to him with AI was one of these AI aggregators got a hold of his content. And it's the clips a little it's a little longer than I was wanting it today. But I think it's worth listening to.

Someone emailed me from the Netherlands and said, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but you're the top story, your top publications cited for this particular topic. And the topic was Mozilla reorganizing around Firefox and AI. And I obviously, as a content creator, I've sort of thought about this stuff. I you know, wonder, you know, you don't know, usually that you're

That's like, this is gonna happen to pod news.

How's it gonna happen? Every

sounds profitable. Yeah. To all the to the podcasts newsletters. They're these, these aggregate these LLM aggregators are going to start sucking everybody's content in and they're going to just reword it, and post it right back out. And you get nothing.

That's the Silicon Valley Way. Give us all your creativity and we'll give you let me see nothing.

In his in his sucks. I mean, I hate it for because that's the dirty secret of all of this is that it none of these LLM is get trained without content. And where does the content come from?

Well read. It's about read. It's about to license its content to Google for this very reason.

To go to Google, they're making they're doing a deal. Yeah. And open AI is getting sued by everybody. Now. The New York Times thing opened the floodgates now everybody's jumping in thing

that bothers me I mean, AI first of all, what is AI? You know, I see a lot of stuff that just an algorithm which is called AI. Alright this fine be writing your show notes and making your chapters Yeah, that's a fine use. That's okay. Don't use it for searching anything I've been the other day. I wanted to look up the name of the hotel that we stayed in during the Moscow music Peace Festival in 1989. And, and I tried two different AI's and they both spit back very

You know, I don't know if you just saw the debut article about Yeah, no, I got the clip and I just made up all kinds of stuff.

You want to hear the clip?

You got to clip Yeah.

Yeah, Harry's. This is it.

Last week, Google's much ballyhooed, new AI tool. Gemini became a national punch line. Company engineers built an AI that apparently couldn't or wouldn't draw white faces, resulting in images like Pope Viking in 1943 German soldier are reimagined as preposterous ly I inspired reboots, I asked Gemini about controversies involving various famous

And then this boots on the ground email that I shared this with you and and I shared an AI reshard anonymously. I work at Google and I work on Gemini. In any case, you're wondering how Gemini produces black revolutionary war generals and other quote, diverse results. It's through a layer that rewrites your query. If you write quote, show me pictures of Vikings, it will be rewritten as quote, show me a diverse picture of Vikings, including a black

Oh, for sure. I mean, that's how you would just thinking as a sysadmin. On it, that's how you that's the layer you would do that at? You would not? Because that's what you would do you would take because that's what less what we're used to it with computer. With systems like this. We're used to taking what the user gives you. And then you see that there's a there's a problem, like in this case, it's some sort of social problem they're trying to they're trying to solve. But,

human. I'm AI, I'm a. So these are all little AI rules that have to be written? Well, let's listen. Let's go back to less general

munging is where you just use search munging. You know, better, you know better what the system is wanting. So you just convert what they typed into something that the system wants? Wow, yeah, that's exactly where you would do that. Somehow,

I think I'm not quite sure why. But I think RSS has a much bigger future than we even realize, for distribution of content. Now, of course, you know, AI can hook up to an RSS feed and suck everything in. But the direct connection between a publisher and an end user is so valuable, and I completely rescind on my misunderstanding of medium equals blog. Because I think this is going to be so so much bigger than we even realize. There's reasons why why RSS feeds keep popping up. It's

And the past and the past is the past. Yes. But now, let me email like email as a lesson. This is, you know, I don't know why this kind of popped into my head. I think it's because because email has been such an irritation for me this week. Email is a lesson about what technology does to us. Like I had a, I had a conversation with my wife last night about this, you know, can I come in and I get the mail out of the mailbox? When I get home from the office, grab the mail

does it piss you off that you get offers for credit cards that you already have a credit card for?

I've never understood that. Yeah. And, and, and credit, I mean, like the credit card offers just every day is because every but but I can sort that in and triage my my physical mail in about 35 seconds. And but in so then somebody thought, well, email is so much Think of how much more efficient This is. Email is immediate. I was because, well, the email is way, way worse. What I want on a day, what I find myself wanting on a daily basis is for people to only be

Well, all I know is Google's Google claim to be the AI guys, they've got Gemini, the follow up to barf. And they've got Gmail, if you want to impress me make Gmail better make the AI learn my habits, what I find really important, and treat pre triage it for me and then remind me of stuff that I've pushed to the bottom. That would be impressive, but that's not going to happen. Because it's not AI. It's not artificial intelligence. It's large language models running on

you know, the Google search is not it's still it's okay. Google search, still profit are still carries the same sense that it used to at the very beginning. Yeah. Which was ranked PageRank PageRank incoming links. And that's still there. I mean, don't get me wrong, that is still there. But it's it's still living off that sort of first initial idea. But that's really not what the main driver of that is and hasn't been for a very long time. Yeah, Google search is highly

they're rewriting your queries probably.

Oh, absolutely. They are there they are their rewrite there. Do you remember the whole thing with the internal documents came out? And they had to use terms nudging from these? Sure. So of course, they're doing that. But then, but really what? The big switch started to change back when Google introduced Webmaster Tools. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. I mean, it's still around when this got a different name now.

also this this is okay. Two things core. First of all, I've been using C or X and G more often than I even ever thought I would you know, C or x ng familiar with this as like a medicine. Yeah, runs on the Start nine. And you can configure it to a whole bunch of different search engines. And you can configure importance of results. And it's just it's been it's been very, very accurate for me, I really like it a lot. We have raised a generation of young people, then then maybe a

As a young IT guys that they, like, if you took if you take Google away from them, they can't, they literally cannot do they're dead. They're dead, then they have no basic troubleshooting skills. And you know, like Google, Google is, for an for an IT person. Google is a fallback, where you're like, Okay, look, none of the things I'm doing makes any sense. This must be a bug. I need to look and see if other people have experienced this bug. Yeah. It's it's a last step

Let's bring in our guests who has been waiting very patiently and probably wants to weigh in on at least some of these topics. He is one of the premier podcasts and 2.0 app developers. He is up late. Well, it's not all that late. I mean, he's young, so it should be able to stay up very, very late. Just launched fountain radio, very exciting developments, and along with the 1.0 version of fountain fountain.fm. We would like to welcome into the boardroom v one the only Oscar Marais.

Hello, guys,

how's it going? Hey, Oscar. Sorry,

sorry, to start to roll known and live you in the lobby for so long. We got on a roll.

I enjoyed it.

Oscar, it's been a while.

It has Yeah, it's been I can't remember how long it's been. But it feels like we would do a bit of a catch up. So glad to be on. Thank you so much. Yeah,

I know the last time you and I have had, you know, some some chat message things over over the past year or two. You know, especially with the the music stuff that's come in. I mean, you want to give us a little ketchup on where you are with with fountain which is it was a whole new release. And just, you know, tell us what you've been doing. And by the way, is it still just you just two guys? Is that which fountain still is?

Yeah, so I'll give you a bit of a kind of update of the last six months. We're actually a team of four now. And another developer Tom. So it's me and Tom who work on the act together. And we've got a part time customer support person as well, who helps us because we've actually had over 10,000 customer support tickets, if you'd believe that number. Wow.

And what is the what is the top? The top problem people have? Is it really something stupid?

Know, it's all you know, totally valid feedback. But it's always stuff to do with, you know, importing OPML specific app that has slightly malformed OPML on or malformed but just slightly different structure or, you know, automatic downloads not working on a particular device type that we then have to go and look into or carplay android auto. Lots of stuff around that. But yes,

the answer is always buy a different car. That's always the answer. If CarPlay doesn't work, you get a good need to upgrade your automobile.

Yeah, it's hard to test as well, obviously, on a different car system. But no, yeah, we've been, I guess the biggest update from fountain side is last year, we were working for about six, almost six months on our 1.0 redesign of the app, which included kind of a ground up redesign of the interface, you know, much more space, spacious design. And also we've re architected a lot of the app as well. So it's much

comm that my compliments when the the 1.0 came out. And it also felt like you took this big, wet ball of spaghetti code and threw it out. It the app just snaps. It's so I mean, it's really responsive. It was kind of bogging down at the end there.

Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it wasn't just the design and UX, we also just re architected the entire app in terms of how we manage your library, how we do the social features, everything. And yeah, it's much more performant. Now. So really happy on that side of things as well.

Did you? Did you before writing fountain had you ever written an RSS aggregation app at all?

No. And I'd also never built a mobile app as well. So actually, I don't know if I've spoken about this. But the first version of fountain was built just as a side project, partly because I wanted to just learn mobile development. And I'd always been kind of interested in, in audio, and was working on that just to see if I could, you know, build a mobile app. And then just that that time is when I came across you guys, and probably listened to the first episode of

it's no coincidence came across the there's no coincidences in the in the kingdom here, Oscar, that's that's not, that's not luck, brother.

That, whatever it is, I'm glad it happened.

If you I mean, if you've never written an RSS based, you know, aggregators based app there is, it seems so

And it's difficult to take six months, and, you know, not really released anything and kind of rebuild a lot of stuff from the ground up. But I think it was really worth it. I think also, what you learn is, you know, you have a big long list of edge cases that you end up, you know, having scripts to deal with, I'm sure you have that pig on this day. That's also helpful, because it means you can you know, you know, fix duplicates, you know, fix repassing issues.

We remember those from the freedom controller days, Dave, can I ask you, Oscar, you see have four people currently working on or at fountain. Now, if I recall, you are one of the one of if not the only 2.0 app that is, has gone out and gotten funding? Do you mind talking just to us about the business side? How things are going for whatever you want to let us know.

Yeah, sure, happy to talk about that, I guess, you know, from the business perspective, the most important thing for us is revenue. And, you know, to give you a sense of that we we have, we do have about 4% of our users pay for our premium subscription, which is 299 a month. You know, we're definitely a long way away from that being, you know,

is the value for value of which you you take a portion for the app is that A, is that worthwhile for you now is that working the value for value split?

I would say. So we've always kind of not prioritized taking a big fee, both on the listener side and the podcast aside for our podcast or wallets, because, you know, this stuff is new enough for new podcasters that want to get involved. And I think part of the benefit that we can sell

And I wanted to say, I was so wrong about two things, which you did and I think are just really turned out to be really, really helpful and really good. One is publishing the booster grams. I thought that would detract from the value from booster grams, I was wrong. People really like that. And, and the one that is just is mind blowing every single time I

Oh, thanks, Adam. I appreciate you saying that. And yeah, I think, you know, the earning feature. You're right, it is a challenge. And it's a whole nother you know, piece of the architecture both on the back end and in the mobile app

I like how you portray it down at the bottom of the of the listening screen. You know, when you see, it's an exciting thing to see if it actually makes me feel good. You know, I don't have to go in and see, you know, how much did I send or whatever. It's just, it's telling it right there. For me. I'm like, Oh, I feel good about, you know, the value for value feedback loop is there in my face all the time? And I feel good. Like, yes, yes, I've sent 1200 sets so far. Yeah, this is

Yeah, me too. And that's, you know, with the earning features, we want people to, you know, experience the fact that money is moving as you listen. And we felt that it was a good way. But yeah, I think that there's still I think, not just within fountain, but within the wider podcasting 2.0 kind of community, I think there's still so much we can do to surface, that feedback loop and kind of show people what they've contributed and how much of a difference it's made. Yeah, I

Well, I mean, that's perfect. timing for I don't know, if you tried to nail the release of fountain radio for the being on the show. Clearly, clearly. Yeah, I mean, it's a three pointer from half court. So that was a pretty that was, that was a pretty big release. Yesterday, I spent some time listening to it last night. It's like, I mean, it's like Elon, it reminds me of Elon beats, but also with the ability for me to jump ahead in the like, I can go, I can just pay my way to the

Yeah, so it was actually quite a last minute thing. We didn't put that much time into it. And but there are a few reasons why we wanted to do something. And it's at the moment mountain radio is only on web, because yeah, obviously normally with fountain we have to go through appstore review and approval, and we have to be quite careful about that. So we

have, you've done something here, which has been talked about since 1996. I have heard people say, Oh, we're gonna make it like radio jukebox, and people can upvote and, and you did it. I've heard so many people talk about this

Obvious podcast index.is clearly working because podcast index dot top music chart that everybody follows is 100 is now what is now 361.

Honestly, the so we launched it on, yeah, two days ago. And I ended up staying up till about three in the morning, because I was just watching what was happening because we didn't, you know, we did no, you know, user testing, or we didn't really think about it that much. We just were like, We think this will be cool. But really, we have no idea. So I was super

to get some of this round robin discovery stuff going. So I'd like to put a couple things in your ear one. If you can take a look at your TLV records just in general so that when someone's boosting a remote item on a music podcast, that I as a music podcast, you can see what they what they boosted what I think you need you need to send the remote item

Yeah, definitely on the TLV. I thought we had already done that. I thought I'd done that. But I'll double check that for you. And yeah, I also totally agree with you in terms of surfacing the, I guess, Discovery connections between all of these pieces of content and also, between all of the apps as well, I think the more that we can, you know, surface our own data so that other apps can consume that and try and do it in a standardized way. I think that's really powerful.

Yeah, I think music is probably the I think that maybe you you have an instinct for music being a good entry point to getting people comfortable with value for value in general. Because it's the thing where we're all used to paying for music. We all understand that. It's it's heavily copyrighted, it's heavily protected, I guess, is

Yeah, I think as well, you know, is, is a slightly different is use case or time of day, you know, we were thinking about, like, you know, you're sat in the office, right, you're probably, or you might listen to a podcast, on, you know, on your headphones at the office, but there's so many people that listen to music in the office, and they don't really necessarily mind what's playing, they just want to have

I've been, I've been a radio guy since I was 13 years old. This is the first music radio without disc jockeys that I'm excited by. And I don't know if this is something that other people feel, but inherently, I know that this is not just someone's playlist, one person's playlist, because I, you know, I listen to people's playlists. Okay, I know what this playlist is kind of about, it has, in a way, it has some of the

Oh, thank you, Adam, I really appreciate you saying that. And, you know, hopefully, I mean, one of the other reasons we did it as well is because the Ainsley Costello concert, which, you know, at the time, we didn't really have the ability in the fountain app or on web to really like play a live stream. At that point, we didn't even have live video, but

So are you is the fountain stack is that still flutter

Yeah, so the mobile app is all built with flutter, which is the programming languages Dart. But flutter is Google's cross app development framework. And yeah, it's really good. I would highly recommend it. There's, there's a few quirks to it, especially when you're trying to do stuff like CarPlay and Android Auto, which, yeah, taken up a

lot. You have to fall back to the, to the native API's for that, or just flutter allow for that. Yeah.

Yeah, you have to fall back to the native API's. So you know, you have to go into the Swift or Kotlin, and figure out all of that aside. What,

how does that how does that work? Because I've never, I've never used flutter. I mean, do you have to like build a Kotlin, or Swift native library, import that in and then call into it with flutter?

Yeah, so you use something called a method channel, which is essentially, you just you build the interface and all of the method calls on the dark side, and then you build the exact same thing on the native side, and then you kind of like communicate over the method channel. So it is a little bit fiddly and and that's, that is the downside, but I mean, you know, what's great about flutter, and I'm

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Is there? So on the on the, the app, it's on fountain app itself? Have you seen a lot of Evie seen? Have you seen stickiness with your users? Like when users begin to use fat when you have a new user to fountain Do you? Do they tend to? Do you see a lot of people trying it out and then leaving? Or do they stay with it?

Yeah, so it's definitely a challenge to get people to stick with it. But there's so clearly two groups of people, there are people that send a boost to a podcast, and there are people that don't, and the people that send a boost, they are really, really sticky. And they come back and they use

So they get started Max 555 dollars and then Apple takes a buck and a half.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's that's actually pretty. That's actually a pretty cool idea. Because you,

you get you get people started, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah, you get you get five, five bucks, you know, it's the easy entrance and then once they once people learn about it, then you're like, Okay, well, there actually is another way you have a wallet that exists outside you can do. You

can take them down a path. Yeah, right. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, that makes How about,

how about strike? Is that because yeah, I think you can you can use strike now as well.

Did I see? Yeah, so you can top up? What? Yeah, we've got an integration with strike. Where if you have a strike account, you can top up your fountain wallet with one tap. It's like an O auth. Integration with strike. So that works well. But obviously, if you don't have a strike account, then you're still stuck in no man's land. You know, trying to figure it all out. So yeah,

are you? You know, I don't know about it. I know, this is all I know. It is though. This is very annoying. And I know it. It does. It does. But you know, I keep coming back to this idea of like, it sucks in real life with Fiat too. In a lot of ways. I mean, just trying to get somebody money. I mean, we have to have the same app. And then okay, I'm gonna pay you back for this thing. Do you have Venmo? No, do you have cash out? Yeah, but I don't have that. So I'm gonna have to go cash out.

I think there's something to that. And remember, all of this stuff, has had its own paths, you know, it's like, it's just that this is a payment thing. And people are very used to payment systems working. But I find as a podcaster, when I explain it to people and say, hey, guess what, you know, Freedom requires an extra step. That always works, by the way. Oh, okay. There's no one in the middle. It's just you and me, baby. And that, that that typically works quite well. Are

Yeah, we definitely want to support video for live streams, that's the kind of first step in which we don't support right now on mobile. And further than that, I guess, for me, you know, I've always just tried to build the features that I want to see into fountain and for me, I've never really understood the appeal of watching the video version of a

Is is correct me if I'm wrong, it is the Rogan video, Spotify only and only the audio is in the feed as far as I know.

Okay. But maybe he may be doing a deal with with YouTube. I gotta tell you all these Spotify deals, you know, everyone's out in the market. I think they they really went like, you know, we'll give you a guaranteed minimum of almost nothing. I'm not sure about Rogen. It's in which he now so did we see his feed? Move to megaphone? So I guess they're getting serious now? About ads, of which there have been none. So I'm not sure I'm not sure what's going on with with all of

Yeah, that's just I'm just wondering if some at some point, it will cause a show like Rogan's that does, just kind of defies explanation that may be the only podcast that people really crave the video first experience for or if

they really do. I'm not I'm still not even sure about that. Yeah,

that's true. Who knows? I mean, there's there's no way to know. No. I hate to do this. But do we need to talk? We don't We need to talk about fees. I mean, like throw cold water away.

We need a jingle like horrible feeds Aw.

I think I think you need to pop that. I think you need to pop the math jingle. And I think we just need to take this pill. All right, here we go.

It's so hot. When you talk math run. That stinks. Dry. Math to me. Oh, yeah,

we're talking about math.

And we're talking math. I love this, the fact that that jingle still references thanks. So the the proposal and the namespace that to remove there to change the way that the the fees work and in the value recipient. So for currently, the way it is now. The the fee, if you if you have an attribute on a value recipient tag a fee equals true, that means that the split value is now no longer a

Yeah, definitely. I think that, for me, the reason that I was, you know, hesitant about that wording change is because I think that there's, well, there's two things going on really, I think the first is we actually never adhered to the like spec as it's written out on podcast index in terms of I think it's treating the fee splits as percentages first, yes. And then tallying up the rest of the splits as quote unquote, shares, and then splitting those are equally

Yeah, so yeah, that makes that makes sense. So I think I think the proposal is basically remove the idea of a percentage and just treat the fee splits. Just as if their shares just they're just shares just like everything else is so split, everybody gets everybody gets the same split. It's not this not this one values, priority,

no prioritization.

It's not treated differently. Yeah. It's not like you somebody jumps ahead of the line or somebody gets you, you have to do special math for this split. And then and then do another round of math for the other. I mean Dobby dos. I mean, God I love you Dobby doesn't mean that the the math problems that he did in latex in order to lay all this out, just, it just made me angry. Like, it made me angry.

Is there anyone pushing back on? This is a man, I haven't looked at the GitHub proposal. But is everyone kind of cool with this battle? Because it was it was it was really only app developers. I think you were getting the preferred splits. Now I know. There. Okay, so where this comes into play, where that terms? Are you okay, there? Oscar feels like sounds like you've fallen off the chair.

Yeah, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. Can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you, I think is IPFS podcasting.net, which I want to talk about anyway. Because you know, what happened with with IPFS podcasting, which actually is not really IPFS podcasting. It's, you know, it's not like everyone sharing bandwidth, you know, you have a whole bunch of copies of your episodes, and it's all going through one or two gateways. And people started thinking that this was a

Yeah. And I think that if, you know, this would I would feel a little bit differently if we didn't now have remote items and remote value TimeSplitters. Because I think then it would be easier for everybody involved to understand that, okay, this is a service fee, and therefore, you know, we can't reduce the percentage, and then the rest

Here's here's a question about the boost bot. Does the boost bot take remote items into account? And let me see if I can give you the use case maybe I'm thinking strangely so if someone if someone boosts Abby Muir on boost the gram ball the remote item gets a split does Would that also show up under the Activity tab on Abbe Muir song in Fountain

No, it doesn't do that yet, but that's something that we could definitely add in I think I think that so good. No, no, please

go I'm sorry.

Yeah, I was just gonna say I think that the way that we are using the boost bot to You know, surface the boosts from other apps, we kind of did that as a, you know, quick fix. But I don't think it's the right long term solution, because what would inevitably happen is that every app or service that wants to display the boosts would have to add a 1% split. And then all of these app specific boost bot splits would add up. So here we're seeing that we need a better way here

is, so I was listening to Sam Sethi on pod news weekly review, I think I heard him say something different. Or, or it's because he has activity streams. He's pushing very hard for this. And I think I heard him say, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Dave, if you heard this part of the conversation, I think I heard him say, wouldn't it be interesting to put the activity screen values into the to V record? That maybe I'm wrong?

I don't think I'm that far in the show. So I'm I can Okay, can help.

Okay, because Because ultimately, I mean, I can hear him screaming right. Now, what, what he's saying is we should all be using activity streams, which means somehow there's another, there's a, an XML stream that comes out of every user's behavior that they can manage, but it still needs to be published somewhere for other apps to get at, I don't know. And I thought he said, What if we put those that information in those values into into the streaming sites? And

I guess no, sorry. I was just I was thinking I was thinking through. I mean, my view on this is, you know, the dreaded noster word, which I know people have different views on. But I also, I saw that latest proposal on the nostril repository that, you know, wanted to replace RSS entirely, which

I think I talked him off the ledge

did. You did yeah. You brought up brought up the book, you brought up the book, the New Testament. Like you're going against God. Yeah.

Paraphrase LLM paraphrase, yes.

But yeah, I do think you know, and whether it's nice or something else, personally, I think NASA would work quite well, is that just not for anything to do with the media hosting, but just for the comments. Because then, you know, all we need to do is just agree on the way that we reference and we've got the podcasts GUID, we can just stick them in as tags. And then it's not a service that we're using. It's just, you know, the comments live on nosto. And every app can pull them in.

I think dude actually suggested that Dave, I mean, or, you know, but maybe not doing it specifically that way, but for the chat or, or the social interact.

Yeah, that will make Yeah, my thing was just put in if if the nostril people want to do it, don't try to replace RSS. Just lay it just use the existing RSS tagging that we that we have in integrate that way, because that's what it's for. Yeah, there's no, there's no reason, there's no reason to get rid of get rid of a thing and try to replace and I

think you I think it would, would provide quite a boost to noster if you were to implement something like that, Oscar, because they're clearly I always say, naast there seems to be a solution looking for a problem. You know, when people are like, yeah, we'll replace RSS. I'm like, Okay, you got nothing better to do. House like, no, no, no.

I think that, I think that that, you know, I understand that there's been some kind of like, you know, I guess maybe it's a strong word, but animosity between, you know, people who and I just don't see it that way as some kind of RSS versus noster thing. I think that's a crazy way to think about it. I think that, you know, both in noster and in podcasting 2.0 We have, you know, the big, big issue of

my view, because now we'll just leave aside the discussions of RSS and replacing podcasting. I don't think that's ever been the issue. The issue is key send versus Ellen URL or Ellen ballon URL, pay whatever zap versus boost, this is the issue. That's the only issue in my mind. And I'm not quite sure how we solve it. Because you're right, we're onboarding people into two different basically, we're onboarding people in both sides are noster. And a 2.0 are onboarding people into Bitcoin.

Yeah, this is my this was wasted. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say that was my that was my point to them. I was trying to make that point. Whether I did or not, I don't know is just is don't wait, there's so much wasted effort trying to trying to, you know, move this boulder up a hill, don't don't do that. Do something new, do something different. Figure out look, look at the tags that are written, it will be so much easier rather than trying to reinvent

Right? Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that the language point, Adam is really, really important, because you're right, that they are conceptually different. And I actually think that we can, we don't have to, it doesn't have to be boozed versus that they can be conceptually different

So where does that job go?

So that would go to the person that left a comment. So for example, if I said, Okay, I got 100,000, stat boost to, you know, this show, and then somebody else and they could be a fountain listener, they can be a pod verse listener, or on any of the apps because those comments will be visible everywhere. They could zap my boost, and then, you know, by receive maybe like, 10 cents or 20 cents.

Yeah, yeah, that would definitely work. I'm just looking for deeper integration. I don't know. I think it may be Bolt 12. Jesus help us bolt to bolt 12 would solve a lot of this. I think it's to me, it's really just a wallet problem. It's just, it's just

it is I think we can go we can firmly say that lightning, that lnd specifically, but like lightning in general, l&d specifically, is still a very real limiting factor. Yeah. It has problems that are difficult to overcome, and their lack of support for some of these basic things like Bill 12. It is a problem. I mean, we our node is still a very complex thing to run. You know, they're transmitting

I'm gonna I'm gonna stop the math talk here. I think we should play a song just so we can take a breath. Yeah, so we do that. i No one gave me any suggestion. Shall I just pulled something that fits right into the Bitcoin ethos. This is Joe Martin man like quacks and Richard and Joe Martin who you know sounds like he's from Nashville normally all suddenly as his Birmingham accent is back and they did a killer track which is climbing up the charts everywhere kids this is called Rising free

Grace guys try to see the bright side fighting hard I tried awake but I gotta choose cancer bills and the last for the last man one stone it's possible for anyone and now to be saved to the system and then a break free will not be of money because BTC my money is orange now used to be green and x now got a new team. A new blockchain is my new crew gamma Intel for my boy Q w is my free event. No don't trust banks

revel revolutionary?

There's a good there's good discussion. In the in the in the chat room about boardroom Yes, in the boardroom about about it's like well not noster or activity pub for cross up comments in its you

don't have to choose one. You can use whatever you want. You can choose either one. Yes, so social

interact tag, you can have more than one. And it has a priority field in it in the priority attribute where you could even say, Okay, I want I'm going to support I'm gonna put three of them in here. One is going to be activity pub that will be nostril want to be something else. And you can say I prioritize activity pub, but I've also going to put a Nasir thing, it doesn't mean it's going to work because apps don't have to support it. And the most support is around activity pub.

shall we Yeah, thank you few people.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Let me see we K we got a couple of booths that came in live. I think we have most of them so let me see what we have here. We have sir Shawn riser with 1000 SATs. He says I am boosting as I quote migrate a server podcast. We know what you're up to. Wink

wink I understand. Understood

check your logs 3033 Check your logs sued. Eric p p 3333. No message dribs got 23,456. He just says booze. Thank you very much. The tone record was 10,000 SATs and he says testing the live feed and fountain today on the lunch break. Dobby das you just heard him come in RSS blue.com. Boosting London from London. You go. Yes, of course. That is true. We do have Oscars in our split for Crosstown boosts that is from Northland in the South London. Who knows? Let me see

Oh, we get get a couple of one off pay pals this week, which is fun. We get to see where's that? Yeah, there it is. We got Jesse Hunter. No note but Jesse send us $10 Thank you, Jesse. Nice. Appreciate that. And from Oak Kyle Bondo. A gaggle pod is $50 gaggle, punky Colin, goggle and he says messages greetings. With every 10 developer questions I asked Dave, I will send in my swear jar earnings. So, my hosting

Where's the writers writing the booth let that one go there it is. Oh,

we got some. I got some booths we got Jean Everett Jean been 3333 through fountain he says, Man, this guest is lost on his YouTube take so many holes can be poked into there. But

this is this is from last week. This is

Benjamin Oh, Benjamin. Oh, he's talking about Benjamin. Yes. So many holes can be poked into there. You should have known this would be my least favorite guest on here. Ever when they couldn't answer a simple question early on in his dead got rude and said what is this a political podcast? Hey, no, he's French. He's French. Yeah, that's

just how they talk. Yeah, you don't have anything nice to say don't boost at all.

Yeah, the French always sound like their pistol. It's just what they do. This is

just fringe. No, there was no offense anywhere and I'm taken and I thought it was an interesting point that he made about not, you know, okay, we're not all fans of advertising. But he said you know why? His point was Why let one company take all the advertising when we could have an open system. I didn't think that was a bad thing to say at all.

And Benjamin is a sweet, sweet human being this Don't ya for Frenchie for French. I think he may have misunderstood. Jake so to satchel Richards in the morning. He says fountain 1111 Boost. Okay, well thank you in the one morning Nicholas be 58 10,000 SATs fountain he says boosting from my road trip to a local Bitcoin meetup. Oh, wow. Yeah, the he's going to the to the Bitcoin Bible study. Oh, Mere Mortals. 1111 our buddy Kyron satchel Richards over there. He

It's tough. Any good? No, it's tough. It's really tough. I had to the kangaroo and I had the EMU egg was that you want you don't want to ask for scrambled emu egg in Australia you'll never be able to finish it. Yeah, the thing is

there's like a football so that's pretty much

yeah, like as like a nerf football. Exactly. Oh, look

at look who's here. His name Jennifer 33 seats 333 Oh, hello. Hello. She says boosting to try and keep myself accountable for doing an audio book this month. Ah This idea has been marinating for a while and has been too low on my to do list shout out to the RSS blue for making it so easy. Also still making progress on the V four v explainer hopefully next week. Kisses and hugs named Jennifer

kisses and hugs back Thank you.

Chris last Oh, it's our buddy Chris over Jupiter broadcasting through podcast index. He says Adam Oh 21,000 stats he says Adam Yeah, I caught you're listening to The Breakdown. I'd love to have you check out my new show this week in Bitcoin. Yep. Oh 12

trim. Yes. All right. All right. I'm gonna I'm going

for it brother. I want to make the go to Bitcoin news podcast for the podcasting 2.0 Community First focused on the Bitcoin signal, not ship coins, and I will pack as many 2.0 features as I can into this new show. The website is still a work in progress, but the show is listed on the index and hosted on pod home. Go podcasting. And

I am podcast subscribes. Episode number one. Why Bezos is buying your bag. Okay. Um, I'm subscribed, brother. I'm subscribed and I am hitting you up right away. I'm locking it in with the streaming sets. Beautiful.

Cool. Nice. Cool deal. Thank you, brother. Thanks, Chris. Oh,

cool. Mister

blogger, 25,000. SAS the delimiter is through fountain. He says hello, Adam and Dave. Are you ready to embark on a wild and wacky journey through the minds of two Texans? Well, buckle up buttercup. Join us as we dive into the hilarious and informative podcast hosted by none other than gene, the enterprise consultant and been the InfoSec expert who's got more security tips than a secret agents Secret Diary. You can find that interesting podcast at WWW dot just two good old boys.com Yo cspo CSB.

Thank you very much. We believe it believe it or not, Dave we have a tally coin. Donation. Yikes. Yeah. Right. From Eric BP. He sends it why Last week he says fees are so low so time for an on chain donation 33,369 SATs Thank you brother that's beautiful Oh appreciate it good to see that happen

that that should also look at me putting stuff on every piece play on chain sins could be in hell a pad just saying could be a bad feature Did you read this chyron metamodels booster

I did about CSB. No I did not I did not satchel Richards the

fountain he says just all CSBs boost in it reminded me that I hadn't sent through my other one can I do this? Is it legal to send after his will the board beef? Will the board find me delimiter the board is okay comes through as an error. Yeah, orders okay. It's divided by zero anywho value for value season for a starting live again on Sunday midnight at UTC plus zero. Nice. You get the that's one. You get that one time. That's the only time next week you have to send

Yeah. Wonderful. Reminder value for value for the entire project, not just for for the for the podcast, but really, for everything we're running. For all those warm migrations in the morning, go to podcast index.org. Down at the bottom, you see two red donate buttons. One is for your Fiat fun coupons, through PayPal. And then of course, you have the on chain donation through tally coin. But we'd really want everyone to go to podcast index, podcasting to.org, which has a

Yeah, no, you can't you can't put you can't put the message in the on chain transaction. But which I guess what you could do is you could put you could send an on chain transaction through helipad. Yes, it did send a boost with a reference to the on chain transaction, a boost for like maybe one set with a reference to the transaction number.

There you go.

See, that's not complicated. How

about the UX to I mean, let's let's really get into it. Be a little pro about it. Dave, I think you gotta go man, you're probably late for forgetting back to because we started late. I apologize. Apologies for that. Oscar, brother, thank you so much for all that you're doing for 2.0 We're so so proud to see all of your work, and how you're growing and just wish you nothing but continued success.

Well, thank you guys, you know, we couldn't have done anything with fountain without what you guys have created with the index. So you know, we're just hoping that we can push this thing forward over the next couple of years. So yeah, thanks so much for having me on again. And hopefully we do it again soon.

Yep, Marathon brother. We're all in there.

Yes. Right. And it's the journey, not the destination. Remember that is the journey, everybody. Y'all have a great weekend. Thank you, Brother Dave. Thank you, Brother Oscar. Thank you everybody in the board room. We'll be back. Next Friday, we'll do it all over again. Please join us then for podcasting 2.0 The board meeting edition

You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org. For more information,

go podcast.

Yikes. Right