Episode 152: Drop the TOC

Oh, podcasting 2.0 for October 27 2023, episode 150 to drop the talk. Hello, welcome to podcasting 2.0 It is time

Hi on mids Hi Ahmed's low on Chapter boosts the chapter boost thing I mean talk about I mean, that stirred up a bunch of stuff I was not expecting. Oh, I love that he hates chapter boosts.

No, no, no, no, that's not true. I first Okay, first of all, let's let's just let's take a breath everybody. Dave, you're not feeling well. So but we have to give you we have to do you want the comfy chair? Hey, once you take the beat you want the beanbag?

Like a stuffed animal.

You do need a comfort a comfort animal a comfort story to make you feel better.

What they call is emotional support emotionally. Yes. Yes. Emotional support.

Bear. Exactly.

There you go. Every all I have is an emotional support. Beef shake. And it's not it's really cold and not very fun to hold on to.

All right, yes, I'll take I'll take this one. I've been preparing for this one for for a week.

The chapter boosts envision envision me behind you, rubbing the shoulders smack in the arms getting you ready. Like, you know,

this is this is really, really good. We learned so much. Now, first of all, these only really happened on my feet. So, you know, it was amazing to see how far people took this as we are doing and we're this and we shouldn't be doing that. And this is ruining everything. And it's like hold on us. It's just a couple of feeds I maintain. It's not the end of the world. Nothing has changed. It is though it is the

Well, nobody oops, that nobody did full implemented the full spec.

Oh, no, that's okay. I mean, I

didn't expect Yes, it's totally not a criticism. No, no, thanks all the time.

Yeah, exactly. So based upon a lot of feedback that I got, because they're my feeds, so I got most of the feedback. And, and, and most of it, that was negative was extremely negative, very negative, but it was really only about the Table of Contents, not about the images that fly by the images that you would see on your car system. If you're using an app that does CarPlay or, or Android Auto, which I find

is for skipping yes through is for skipping to the end of somebody who's talking about brand uplift strategy.

That's the only reason for it. It's only for that. So in my mind, and this is what I would propose the that it seems like so. So what happened was very interesting, because there was a very long thread. And it was like, and it got into cross app comments. And we should be showing these in different file and all this. No, no, I disagree with all of that. This is just another chapter object. It's a valid top to Chapter object, because it's based on a timeline. And it has

The Yeah, so let me let me add flavor text to what you're saying. Because I think that or not, I don't really, I think I think your instinct is correct you the TOC. Toggle is already there. True False. That solves an immediate issue. If you implement that, that sort of gets you over the hair on fire. Oh my god, what are these things do it in my chapters? So that's, that's that's there. I want to add some flavor to that though, because there's not is that a douchey thing? If I say I want

cargo pants when you say it or not gonna hit mute or shorts on because No, you're in your underwear? Aren't you? Okay, stop. We don't We need no visuals. Are you streaming video? Can we see you on? The no agenda to buy? Yeah, okay,

I'm gonna let me let me back that up. Okay. Let me add some, some some color.

Racist. Yes. Okay.

This is no dairy down here. The type. So the TOC, really, it solves this problem, but it's not the intended solution to this problem. Like, you know, and this is, this is part of this, this happens to all specifications. You you start where you know, you, you know, you start where you know, but it's like, Okay, here's the things we have in front of us. And if you go too far, and try to envision everything that could possibly come in the future, you get it, you'll

one drip Scott is Drebin to drip Scott's a crowd.

Yes, yes. So but but the idea there cloud cloud chapters is what enabled something like this thing to have to happen. Yes to be get in with. Yeah. So we have last time I checked a couple months, you know, like, couple of months ago, we had like, around 13,000 listeners to this show a month. So I guarantee you some people have no idea what we're talking about the worst simply talking about when people send a boost, should it show up as an event, a time marker in the chapters of

Yes, exactly. Or the an ad or a or sponsor message? Or could be, you know, a an MK Ultra zap? It could be yes. If you look at it, then you get you get mind controlled any of that. Yes.

All valid. And so then that so this, this idea of having a table of contents, a table of contents, visibility flag, true false, was very appealing. So we'll Yeah, let's pull that right, in. That, that is, that's what the intent was to have invisible things show up only in the podcast UI and not in the chapter Table of Contents,

which is what and that's the disconnect, just to add some color to your color. When people say color, when people say you mess chapters up, what they're saying is you because I they sent me screenshots. No one sent me a screenshot of the UI of a square image and saying this is messed up now. They said, I can't skip ahead. I can't find where I was all. Absolutely one. I'm going to say it 100% Correct feedback,

Right. But here's where I don't think that ultimately the Table of Contents toggle, I think this is a short term fix that needs longer that needs a correct fix, which is the type parameter right. So the because the table of contents is a hammer, you you are you are saying as the creator of the chapters, you are saying, I don't want this visible, but some people might want it visible. I enjoy the chapters. I like the boosts in the chapters. I like them in the table of

it became like a helipad. Yes. Like, hey, who boosted what's and then you click in it to get the message. I understand what you're saying. Absolutely. It

was fun in to listen to last week's no agenda. And then I flipped open the chapters and see all all these boosts in there. And those boosts never get shown in no agenda. Because they're not it's, you know, because of Jhansi Dvorak, because it was fun to see that people are boosting and what they were, what their messages were, and all that kind of stuff it to me, it adds to it. I like it. But that's just me personally, to see there. I like it. But sir, Libra hates it.

The end with a with a capital H. Right. There's no Jesus in that mofo. I hate this.

And the heat, so he hates it, I like it. That tells you that, that that tells you that the podcaster should not be controlling whether those things are visible in my app, it should be me that controls whether they're visible. Therefore Table of Contents isn't the isn't the appropriate long term fix. If we put a type parameter in there and say, Okay, this chapter object is of type boost, then I can go and toggle a flag in the settings of pod verse and say I want to see boosts in my

So looking at the at the chapter namespace entry. It feels like with what you're saying waypoints may be misplaced as an optional attribute, that might be a type equals waypoint. Instead of it being an optional attribute equal to author title, podcast name, etc.

Say that again.

So you look at the chapter object. And I'm just taking it very literal. So the chapter object has a start time and has a title, optional image URL, table of contents, and time and location. So location feels to me like if you're going to do a type equals, that should be one of the types instead of a, I don't know if anyone has implemented it as, as an

Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's this. That's a good that's a good one that then that that is probably a good thing to ask. We need a pole.

Oh, God. Oh, no, we know it was me. I'm Paul.

We need we need to know if any ad developers have any bad developers are using the location spec in there. I suspect that they are not just ever seen it.

But also I can imagine where you would have a table of contents, but you might actually have in between two markers, visible and thus clickable and navigatable. In the table of contents, you might have 20 images in between the just flipped real fast. I mean, yeah, you might you might have video I mean, let's why not

have like a flipbook the why not?

Yeah, have a stick figure going, hey rotoscope rotoscope red is hope. Yeah. And, and I really like this because we've and again to me, I learned so much from this exercise and thank you all for your passionate feedback, because I really learned how important that table of contents is for a lot of people. But I'm, I'm more like you. Were I as I said, I kind of use a heavy Pat Oh, who boosted? And who would they have to say? But there's that can be all kinds of

They did a lot more than I thought it was they have a lot of negative feedback. I did not anticipate the negative. I did not anticipate the volume of people that did not like this.

But I loved that because it immediately showed me what was wrong. Within a week of I went away within days, like Oh, I see what's wrong. I immediately pinged Spurlock, I said, Would you please add TOC equals false to every single Bookstagram that you put in the chapters? And you did that immediately? It dropped

the talk? Yeah, yeah. Dropped the talk.

Like that dropped the talk.

On Daniel, on your, you know, on Daniels, you know, he really wants this thing to hold it to be completely different. We're not going to rip the chapter spec out and start from scratch, it would be so disruptive. Yeah, it's not it's just not it's not happening. But I don't think but that's not incompatible with what you want. See, like, in the evolution of chapters into a font into a file that contains lots of different things

that is happening. It's a natural evolution, it's

here it is, yes, it is a natural evolution, the only thing that is the the the that's what this is doing right now, what happened is we hit it, we hit a new use case, we see that the spec isn't handling this in an ideal way. So now we're going to go and add the probe, extend the spec to make it fit the use case. So that know that developers don't have to rip and replace all they had to do is now go in and tweak their

case. Never, never would have gotten this far. No, we there's no

way we would have known this what happened three years ago. So you just have to respond. You just have to respond to this thing. And I think the spec is the format of the file is flexible enough to handle. I mean, if we do it in a responsible way, is flexible to handle tons of stuff.

Yeah. Which I think is what Daniel was talking about, and I can And I can envision several use cases and again, brought to you by messages sponsor messages scrolling lower thirds. I mean, this could be an entire new interface for the people that pretend they watch podcasts instead of listen to them might actually enjoy. You can just have to have you and me a picture of you and me animated with headphones on in front of me. I like like Dame Jennifer

Yeah. And so the Yeah. So that is the chapters is it's interesting. I've been thinking this week. One thing that we've talked a lot about is super chat. And having a timestamped way of playing back events that happen in the podcast, went upon playback upon later playback. So we're having a live show right now. People are boosting, people are talking

user definable, that's even more fun.

Yeah, and then so here's so let's go further with this. In order to make that happen, we could in order to make that more reliable, what we could do is I'll also add a UTC timestamp into the boot into these boosts. So that when the boost comes into the chapters file, it comes in with the original timestamp of when the boost happened,

I think reflex is already doing that. It says this boost was sent six hours 32 minutes after the show was released.

Okay, so that if I'm looking at I'm looking at it right now. That's what I saw wrong raw JSON of one of, of one of our episodes. And there's not what we need is a property like a ctoc False. What we need is another property it and this is just me spitballing Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, if we had another property that was like this, like, let's call it universal time, or you know, UTC colon, and then a Unix timestamp of the UTC of the moment that the boost happened in in real

Right universal right and and that goes for shows that are recorded live before a dead studio audience.

Yes. Yeah. So I mean, you know, these are these are all spitball ideas, but this is the idea. This is. To me. This shows the power of what's possible with with doing this So I'm with you. This is fantastic. I mean, this is the spirit of what Daniel want. And yes, I think it's, you know, it's happening naturally.

So Daniel says in the chat room, why separate booster grams from comments? I know, I would I want to say right now, this has nothing to do with comments. I agree. Cross app comments is a spec. I implemented, I publish it. And, and it's never taken off. For whatever reason. There's, I believe there's multiple ways to do it, not just activity pub, I'm I'm publishing to activity pub. It's in most of the app somewhere, or some of the app somewhere. And for whatever

Maybe I took his comment to mean, wash it and they go not in the chapters file. But then this other comments file. There were comments thing, instead of the chapters? And that's, that's a messy answer. But I think that the the issue for now, is that chapters are something people use comments or something that they do that nobody uses. Right?

Yeah, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, you know, it's just it is what it is. If there's anything, then go with

what works, I mean, like it when people tell you, you know, you can't make people use the thing. Now, and when people, you have to, you have to, you have to get like skate to where the puck is, instead of, you know, trying, instead of trying to always go for the goal, I mean, for your idea of what the goal is going to be. Ideally, ideally, all of these things would be distinct streams of data that are coming in and

almost every single one supports them. This point, oh, yeah, this is what's so beautiful about it. It's an E, it's easy. And, and that's what I that was what was so powerful to me, is without the app developers doing a single thing, we made it worse.

They got it, they got they got a they lost a star for free.

It was, you know, it was it reminded me of one of the biggest complaints that I hear that I find so sad, is people say to me, you know, I tried that to fill in the blank app out there. And it gave me an ad before the show that I was listening to. Yeah, you know, and so the apps get blamed for these things. And, and, of course, in this case, it has nothing to do with the app, it has to do with you know, with a with a hacking away, but a completely valid hack. But I

But yeah, that's it. Reading from rules for standards makers remember which is the develop the developmental bible of podcasting 2.0. If pressed if practice deviates from the spec, change the spec in writing the spec for RSS oh point nine one, I found that a lot of the limits imposed by the earlier spec were being ignored by developers. So I left those limits out of the point 191 spec, nobody complained. Right? That that's that's the thing. You can't force developers to do anything.

Wrong. That's that's what's your face from? Ticking, ticking, ticking my cousin Vinnie. Yeah, okay. Marissa, Marissa Tomi. So, so, to me that, like, we learned a big thing. I'm incredibly happy, we learned this. I love that everybody gave such Animated Feedback. And to me, I think this is a much bigger turning point than we all realize, because we have the framework. Now we can expand that. And, and the sky is the limit. And I'm going to revisit Daniel J's

Yeah. And that's and that, that should be in there anyway. I mean, that kind of that. That's, you know, that should is a dirty word. So I try not to say that, but that I mean, if you it is part of the spec, and has been there since the beginning. So it, it is a good idea. I won't say should it is a good idea to follow the full spec and support TOC.

Right? And we and we know that this can happen because we went through a couple of weeks of everyone upping their game on to V's same thing, you know, people are sending basic info, not everyone. And we have that lovely grid that Spurlock put together. So there's, you know, there's a lot of unfortunately, a lot of work to be done. But you know, we all get up to speed. Man, we're really, we're really good cooking with gas, as you would say.

Yeah, I think it's I think this has been a learned this has been a great learning experience, because we we don't know what all can happen. Here. This is like I said, while good. This is a thing I was not prepared for to see. Then I saw it. And I loved it. Then saw that other people hated it. And the whole thing was just, it was just vast. It was a fascinating. Like, experiment.

Like yes, wonderful. Yeah, I agree. It was it was like a real aha moment. Then for me, as I said, like, wow, people, you really rely on these chapter markers. That's a huge deal. Now, I had no idea. I've always wondered, you know, how much people care about chapters will now we know. He's very passionate, very passionate. Very, very passionate. So Okay. Cool. I'd like to move on to another topic here. For a couple

Oh, I thought you were going as I thought you were gonna go to Spotify as profitable high five.

Well, I mean, yeah. Okay. If you take out costs, payroll taxes, yeah. Okay. Operational profit. The headline reads is very cute. But no, if I really look through all the all the podcasts Industrial Complex news from this week, what I'm seeing is advertising is up, but it's really only inserted stuff. And that's like, it's 15% of all advertising. Ed, what it tells me is, advertising sucks. Things are not going well with the podcast industrial complex, my personal opinion. And I'm not

Yeah. If we If we suspend for the moment the idea that profit is having more money at the end, then you did all

your fu paid your mortgage and all that.

Yes, yes. If you take that out for the moment, then yes, they were profitable.

Now, of course, you have to add to that they fired a lot of people that and literally the, the EC and the CFO were saying, Well, you know, we reduced the excess fixed expenses, which is always people, and we raised our monthly rate. Okay, so yeah, so you got a little bit of a difference there. But I but just skipping over that, because it's more interesting to me, in light of remote item and value for

Oh, okay. That's, that's an interesting way to do it.

Well, I liked it, because chapters are familiar. You know, are familiar for two, basically, you're uploading a chapter file, which has been semi created for you. And then you can add to that, or do whatever you want. And then you just have to hit the time codes. Yeah. So it's in a process that his customers already understand with the chapter file just now with the addition of music and setting the timecode.

Okay, so that that just makes it Where are they? It's not a new thing to learn for them. They already kind of Yeah, exactly. Already. Exactly.

Exactly. And I'm going to be sending people over as of today, because I got deejays banging on my door, who already have produced shows and they're ready to go. And I told them, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Halt? Yes. So I think that's dynamite. And in general, what and of course, he's very nimble, because you know, smaller Adobe Das is doing is he just knocking it out of the park? Man is fantastic. The stuff he's doing

this? That's it? Yeah, this this is I'm sorry, he

just he just boosted n times for value times points are calculated based on audio duration. Okay. So you're gonna have to do the start time it does the end time

automatically pulls it pulls that information from it.

Exactly, exactly. And it does, you know, in the chapters, you have nice little Albemarle, the link to the whatever is in the link of the of the value time split. And as I said, you can add it Oh, yeah, you can set the value the share value. Just like just like the big boys do it. It's it. Yeah. And you can add one, basically, you can edit the chapters, and you could set that in yourself. You know?

So where's the I guess the lookup is using the is using us? I guess?

Yeah, I think so. He has a song lookup. I don't know if he's

on dates or something?

No, I think he's either. Well, he's gonna, he's gonna boost the grandmas in a minute and tell us he's either using directly from the API or maybe, maybe he's doing maybe he's getting a copy and doing some more local for quicker lookup? I don't know. Okay, thank you, by the way, Steven Bell. In the split kit, he has now made it so that you can quickly peruse through all the most recently added reverse

What do you mean, are you talking about across all a split kit or just you.

So he queries the index. So also, if it was added from wave lake, or added from, from music side project, or someone doing if it's in the index, it's now immediately available in the split kit for my workflow. So my workflow is I want to I want to check all the new songs that come in. So I have to go to all these different places to find the new songs. Now. There's one place for me it's a split kit. I've been there and the most recent additions are at the top.

Oh, I see. So he's Yeah, so he's looking at that's, that's probably why he wanted to filter on recently added music shows.

Here's Dolby das paying us to give us answers. 5000 SATs again, I have a local copy of the DB to enable fuzzy search. I also resolve fountain and pod verse track links, if that's how DJs find their music. There you go.

Low beautiful view of the DB. Yeah. The local copy.

Yes. dB R dB, I guess.

Is that Yeah, that must be the weekly download. And so then he's he's making a fuzzy

and he may he may be doing he may be checking periodically to update.

That's, I love that. Okay. So I love that people love it when people grab the database and do their own thing. Yeah, it's more. It's more decentralized than everybody just simply pointing to us. Which which I don't mind people using us as well. We It was while we're here while we exist, but it is very cool to see people just grabbing the database and running their own thing. Yes, exactly. That's a great thing to see.

I'm so tickled by all of this. I really am. It's fantastic.

Yeah, they're good. They're gonna there's gonna be there's there's gonna be a lot of people For that, that just stopped making any money at all once pot Spotify puts those things in.

Well, people already aren't making any money. I mean, if they're spending money five bucks,

they didn't now they're gonna get zero. Yes.

So here's a question that neither of us are really well, you're more qualified than I am. To answer, but this is one that I've detected out there. And it's part of this is part of remote item. And, and I'm not, I'm not quite sure, let me see if I can frame the issue. Okay, first, I want to thank Mike Newman profusely, because the automatic submission from wav lake to the podcast index appears to be Mike Newman. Yes. I had no idea.

I saw I saw him in their release notes, though, we

did a pull request that Mike Newman showed up. So artists, if you know if Mike Newman is not has not added you, you may not show up in my workflow. I may not be aware of your music and therefore may not be able to put it into my shows.

You may want to boost him so that he knows that you exist. Yes,

yes. And that seems like something that hopefully wavelike would just do on their own accord.

He's He's the distro kid of podcasts.

That's a horrible thing to call anybody. You don't want to be a distro kid of back, Mike, I take it back. So I've been thinking and because there's this, this this conversation of. And I think it's a lack of understanding of RSS in general, because artists are coming to the project and saying, Well, considering how I put I need different splits for different songs should I have? And this is only because they

per fee per feed me?

Well,

wavelength has split, they do have per item. They don't have splits per feed.

So no wavelike

they don't have value blogs in the feed. They have them only in the item.

Are you sure about that?

Yeah, they don't they don't put value blogs at the channel level. They only put them at the episode level.

Okay, but I thought it was exactly the opposite. Maybe I'm crazy.

That's That's why their feeds don't show. That's why their feeds don't show up. When under the new value enable feeds API endpoint because they only value blog, the episode or the track. They don't value blog, the feed itself.

It's all as part of the same problem. At any rate, the question is, how should music be assembled? How should it be? How should it be connected to an artist and how should be connected to the participants of each individual track? And there's valid reasons to have a feed level volume. Well, if item level overrides feed level, which is it does right item overrides feed level i Okay.

What's one of the what's the problem? Okay.

Here's what I'm here's what I'm trying to figure out. Okay. The way I see this moving forward, what I think should happen is Ainsley Costello just just use her to

No, I think that is I think that's a good, I think it's a really good idea. Because you. So here's, here's how I could see that happening, you would have, you know, for lack of a better term since aesthetic feed me in in that I tend to use that term to mean, a feed that just has content from other feeds in

Yes. Like an OPML file. Oh, no, we're there again, hello, Freedom controller.

So the feed is like, yeah, there's this synthetic feed, which the most, the biggest use of this concept is sermon audio.com. So you have all these sermons being posted all the time, under their initial source, which would be the preacher or the church that where they come from, but then you also have tons of the sermon audio podcasts. That's a separate podcast feed, but it's just called something like

this. Yeah, it's a symlink.

symlink Yeah, exactly. It's it's an alias an

alias for those of you from the Mac world?

Or are a hyperlink and hyperlink hyperlink? Yeah, it's just saying, hey, there's a thing over here. And rather than me recreating it in it's good, just go get it from the original source. You're telling you that way. You don't have to worry about the metadata going stale or getting screwed up? Right. So that's, that's the concept here. So you would have the word to envision what you're saying? I was, I would say see there being an Ainsley Costello Oh, FPP set a CNAME Yes. CNAME

name is another good one. Yeah. So

honestly, we could have we could have called that the attribute. Well,

you know, what it is, what this tells me is we're on the right track because all these versions of it exist in the computing world. So we're on the right track with this idea.

The company computer science name for all of this is is an indirect reference.

And and I have to correct myself the remote item was in fact conceived and birthed by Alex gates. I said that incorrectly on the on the mere mortals podcast. Oh, yeah, my three years I had the genesis of it wrong. So I apologize. Great interview by the way, the you know, Karen's it was good because I had just been in the car for four hours taking Tina to the airport and driving back and I'd traffic and I jammed

It was

it was very, it was I was dope, man. Yeah, very chill. Yeah, but it was it was fun to do. I really enjoy the content. Such a good guy.

Yeah, it was on Andy laymen's podcast answers which I've cued up. I'm

excited to hear it. I saw the you know, I saw the sound bites that were being published. You know, it was like RSS is the gate breaker the Gatecrasher I love that. I also used your big red button the other day. I use that on no agenda.

Oh, nice. Well, the the the my interview with him was exactly the opposite of yours. Mine. Sounded like a hamster. That was talking. I was all jazzed up.

I'm not so sure about that. You sounded pretty cool to me. Okay.

Well, that the the idea here so is that there would be an Ainsley Costello feed that just consists of room load items to her actual feeds, whichever ones they are, whether it's an album or a single or whatever, and can I make it even crazier?

Please do would so there would be top level Ainsley Costello the hustle, beautiful NZSL feed synthetic feed where you want to call it, boom, there's an album, go tap on that there's the tracks. Then from there, you might be able to see music from artists, so I might be able to see Oh, there's the SAM means song. And I can then hyperlink into SAM means or the it was as played on booster Grand Ball. Go into booster

I'm gonna I'm gonna support I'm going to support you. You throw me an alley oop, I'm going to dunk it. Here it goes. So starting from the top down in this feed, and let's just call this what is it? This is a defeat as a playlist. Yeah. So it at the top. It is a it is a medium type music l it's a play. There you go. There you go. You and and it's a and at the channel level. You also have the person tag with Ainsley in it. Yeah. With a link to her stuff. Yeah. And a picture of

You know what it is right?

Share your up email. Yeah.

Yes, it is. Share your OPML always, always OPML at the end. Are we ever gonna ever gonna get that done? Are we?

Well, I mean, CRISPR I seen has a shirt that says that on it. It's all up.

I need that shirt. That's a great shirt. That's exactly what I need. Yeah, that's

okay. So now that's beautiful experience is what that is.

So the the challenge, of course, is for feed creation interface. Which, right now the top two guys doing this, in my mind are Steven Bell and Dolby Das. Yeah, so I'm excited to see what they come up with if they liked this idea if they liked this basic premise, because the app should just be able to easily adapt to follow those, you know, follow that that trail, like a breadcrumb. Basically, the boom in boom, in boom, in click play, listen was here. And you're moving around?

Yeah, there could be. There could be apps that do just this, you know, yeah, it really could be apps that just do playlists.

I just popped a boner. metaphor, metaphorical metaphor.

Please don't make the show title. metaphorical Boehner.

No, no, I already got dropped the talk. I mean, that's already beautiful.

Yes. I mean, that this is this is. This is the vision. I mean, like I love this vision. I didn't because that's how that's how you get discovery. That's how you get organic discovery. Yes, people begin to put recommendations into things and people not algorithms and

people will stick in their apps. And it's just as you said,

put a stick in your

head. It can change the entire dynamics of of apps. You know, just like you said, you may just have apps that are purely meant to browse through the RSS space.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, to me, one of the most exciting tags that has come up is remote items. Well, I mean, we already know that. That is a powerful tag that links thing that's glue, that's a glue tag and links things together. It's that's like DNS. Yeah. As far as a thing that's sort of underrated. A feature feature tag is pod roll. I really want to see people start using this. Yeah, because that is a That's, that's a recommendation engine just waiting to happen. Yep,

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Yeah, I mean, like, why not? That's, that's organic recommendation engine without algorithms.

I love it.

See, I've got, you know, I started to ask, started to raise the podcasting 2.0 to threat level alpha,

level alpha.

What does that mean? Like, and then I saw what YouTube came out with. And I decided no, it's not it's different. There's no threat? Well, now we're still like, we're still at Green. Everything's green.

I somehow, it's like, it's like I'm a crack addicts. But when I've listened to the new media show, because like, I know, I know, I should not light up this pipe. I know that it's going to make me puke at the end of this. Hi, I'm going to have, but I can't stop myself from listening to Todd and Rob argue about YouTube. Is so wasted right now, man, like, oh, no, I'm getting sick over this crack, but I can't stop it. And then another hit. And it was it was interesting to hear Rob,

civilizational engaged it's very specific.

So knowing looking at an lb wallet or a hella pad and seeing people listening in real time. And seeing feedback and and value being contributed irrelevant irrespective of, of the amount of money it is, in Fiat terms is just a number. Right? Even more exciting is to row a duck's Ben, what does that even mean? It'd be I don't know, how much is that in pennies or

The podcast industrial complex is a selfless it's a self licking ice cream cone. It is a PSP is a is a it's really it is the it is the digital advertising industry. With podcasting as like an add on module. Yes, they just they've just just plugged in the podcasting on the side. If they don't really care about a good organic discovery, sorry, sorry. They don't they don't really care about podcasting as podcasting. It's just another way to siphon off a percentage

you're delivering by definition. Yes.

So you and you have these, there's, you have these ideas there, it's like, well, I just get a portion of my money from the government. Therefore, you know, it's because I delivered such an such a project or product. And I got paid for it. Therefore, you know, it's not fair to call me government funded. Because that implies that I did, I'm literally I wouldn't exist without government. And I can understand that. I understand the distinction there that is trying

Wow, hold on a second, I think we need some, some spooky music with this.

Yeah, we're walking down the alleyway. So you're going down the alleyway, and you see these three fingers approaching. And they emerge out of the out of the smoke that's rising out of the manhole cover. You can't you, you, you, you catch your breath and your throat. And you look at your wife and you're scared. Would it make a difference to you? If you knew that these three, these three men just came out of a Bible study? Wow. Of course, if the answer is, of course, it

just by definition, that you're not going to talk about a competing product. That's censorship right there, bro, self censorship.

Right. And, and, you know, I see people that fight against this. And they they try to push, they they try to push through it and say, Look, I'm not going to censor what I say. And they have varying degrees of success with it. You know, sometimes an advertiser pulls out sometimes they don't. But the the idea there is that in both cases, the perception is all that matters. And that's, that's what me like when those, you know, when it's at night, and those three guys are walking

So I guess what I'm saying is what we are doing here matters. It's important. The N value for value is not about money per se, it's not an alternative to advertising. It can be competitive with the with the with the payout it can be. But at its basis, I'm just excited by I'm still excited when I hear pew. Pew and then sometimes I leave it open, you know, the the speaker still on I have pew and I run back. Oh, let me see. What did they say? What's what's what's the

Congratulations, happy anniversary,

thank you. And go ahead and listen to the donation segment. It blows me away. It blows me away that people, not one not 210 Pulling $1,000 out of their pocket Happy Birthday. But besides, besides that, what they're saying in the notes is, you know, I would have I might have been dead. Literally, we get that quite often, I might have been dead. If you hadn't influenced my thinking. Where I got out of a bad situation, or I've determined to change something in my life based upon

It started if you had started a music show that may have pulled over, but not for what you did. I mean, that's you are starting from scratch.

And we've never done video. Never never contemplated it. And we're not on Spotify.

But the YouTube, the YouTube podcast industrial complex, like, just, just just don't, you know, just just don't just don't go that direction. I mean, like, it's, and honestly, just did digital advertising in general. I mean, just be prepared. If that's the route you choose, just be prepared to have always that, that perception that's attached to

Yeah, it's is a real commitment.

It is it is and but in the commitment eventually does pay off, if you try to shortcut and just say I'm going to do YouTube, yeah. You're you're just cheapening your own product.

And you and you don't have control over discovery of you don't have control. You just don't have control. That's right. And all of this. I love this RSS. Deep Dive that we're doing right now the whole group. And because this will lead to better RSS content distribution in general, and discovery through RSS and it Yes, it will work with written word. I mean, there's no reason why you can't have a remote item for blogs.

Totally. Yeah, totally. You know,

and I think ultimately, and, and welcome again, Andrew Gromit good to have him on podcast index dot social, progressive web apps, you know, because that's, that's the next thing. The actually Todd said that, you know, we still have the World Wide Web, if anyone still knows what that means. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, a lot of people don't. They think they have a Google.

Yeah,

I got Google. I hit this button. And I searched and I get answers. And I find stuff. But that's Google right. Now, that's the web

that that's in in the web, we forget that the web is the the original decentralized. Yes. Like, there's so many times where we look at these other protocols. And we're like, you know, we think, Okay, well, this, this protocol is going to meet my needs for decentralization. Really, the web is the most decentralized things, that thing that exists. But look, look at the number of aggregation points for feeds. It's huge. It's all over the place. If you look at

Yeah, yeah. Is it really that many? It's 2000. Really, that's amazing. It's a lot. That is huge. And that's all hosting companies, individual servers, etc.

Right? Yeah. Actually, let me pull that up. I'm kind of curious. Now. Let me see if I can get to my, to the last version of that ahead.

And it's a great way to to hide it. You know. You're so right. It is so that's so beautiful. That's all decentralized.

Well, we're gonna have we're gonna have Todd and Mike Dell from blueberry on next week, next week, next year, next week, so that we can talk about one of the things we're going to talk about is their proposal for what they call alternate feed. Yep. And, and I've been thinking a lot about it, and I dig it. I think it's very, I think it's very useful, but they in it, it relies on this idea of decentralizing just using the web itself. I'm all for that. There is so yeah, so there's,

you're gonna want to hear the names.

Blueberry Librivox a cast cast those red circle Islaam house Allah walk by Cambridge University Captivate transistor hub Hopper simple cast Omni content, okay, and it keeps going and it gives you go scroll script PAGE PAGE PAGE PAGE all the way down so there's a once you get down to less than 100 There's just a bazillion of these things so there's what kind

of names I want to hear the names catwalk cash fly

the guardian.com Listen notes. You remember they had they have no hosting service? Yeah. My See, my I know church.co.uk The chain how many?

How many feeds from feeds.no agenda notes.com. What is it? No agenda?

What is our feed in a show notes?

Is that any show notes? Yeah, probably is an issue. How many are coming from? Seven?

Yes, seven from in a show. notes.com Right. Right after na shows.com is web geeks pc.com Catholica pedia.net

This Yeah, that's your decentralized web right there.

That's it. Mockingbird network.com whenever that is pod cast edge.com there's I mean, there's a million of these in Mississippi state.edu. Yeah, that's That's it. Podcasting is already decentralized. It really is. I mean, anything we'd add to it is just sort of, it's like an it's an overlay. Right? We're not, we're not enhancing it. And you know, we aren't what it already is,

when I think about it. You know, if you look at like, talking about news like Google News, then wonder they hate RSS. Because there's not enough we scrape, we organize, and we rank it, and we show it, because that's what they do. Now, now, that may be under the hood, I'll bet they're picking up a lot more RSS feeds, and they'd be willing to admit, but Google News, you know, they're, they're pulling it in from all these sources. They want to be your news reader. And they don't

But ASCII assume that the web is the web is decentralized, it's its DNS, its URLs, its links, there's no everybody hosts their own thing. That's the ultimate decentralization just just just because just because something. This is why this is why

thing. No, this is why the app ecosystem was built was to obfuscate the web. And there was never Steve Jobs, his vision. His vision was progressive web apps. If I'm not mistaken

Yeah, I don't know those those that wasn't paying attention to. When the iPhone came first came out, I thought it was one of the ones that was like, Oh, this is bullcrap. This is gonna listen, this is a joke. This isn't gonna last. Because I was like, that's, nobody's ever gonna type on their screen. You're gonna want to look people okay,

my wife, she is the best canary in the coal mine. As long as you do the opposite. Her two famous claims one who's ever going to use a credit card? That makes no sense.

The next one that was better than mine.

The next one is cool. Want to make a phone call? While they're standing outside? Who wants a phone in their pocket? I love it. Whenever she says who wants that? I'm like we have a winner. This buy stocks now? Yeah, well, good. I'm very, the only other thing I just wanted to put on people's radar, just want to keep it on the radar is for the live shows. You know, the WebSocket I don't know if that's been written up yet. As a as a part, I don't know if that's a part of the namespace

I'm waiting else sort of waiting on podcast guru and Steven B to figure out what what that spec was going to be. But if you guys need my help, I mean, like if you if you want everybody getting involved in that, you know, send out the bat signal. So we all know what to do.

Yeah, I mean that to me the remote item and the is much more important but it's a part of it I guess in a way but you know the interface is for the synthetic feeds and you know, like the fountain is doing a good job and I've seen the podcast guru stuff of you know, tapping in you see booster Graham ball, you can find the song. I want to subscribe to artists I want to follow artists. That's what I want that you know, that's just that mean just like a podcast. I want to

likes metal that lightning thrash

that yeah, you gotta be I gotta be in the right vibe for that. You know,

you have to get yourself jacked up for metal and I'm ready for it all the time.

Let me see what the most with the most recent shows are. I go to my desktop web app. ln beats love. Love the desktop. So we're still at 1313 shows that we're aware of right now. Homegrown hits. I like that one a lot. DeLorean like home home grown hits. And I bet Sam still a big fan of what is it? It's a it's a mood. Yeah, it's a mood. That's cool. I get ideas for the show from it's a mood. Let's good. Shall we? thank a few people.

Yeah, my voice is starting to go

Yeah, yeah. Gotta get you back under the covers with a hot toddy. T 500 SATs hear from radio Pete boost first ever boost Hello we've D virgin as your boost edge. You have the main head of my boosting he says go podcasting 2.0 Not listening live as I have my head under a grubby bath sorting out a leak shall catch up tomorrow with board's permission of course you can always catch up tomorrow 33,333 from cotton Jim Pugh we got your pew Dred Scott with 5555 which is according to

Yeah, it should just come straight through. Yeah, it's

going to be any problems. And by the way, via drip, thank you for hanging in there. Some people might have gone if this man did blip. I'm not gonna do chapters anymore. Some people are like that. You're not. I love you for that. Brother. Thank you for hanging in and keeping with it. Yeah, because we're basically messing up his art right now. Which is I take seriously, I didn't realize how much it would mess it up.

It's my bell. Check with my show title is check my mic

right now and check with my

mic. The pull request of the wave Les Paul request.

Sir Libra 2112 We got I wish I could listen live unfortunately working in the Fiat mines. Thank you for all the support. There's dovie das with 10,000 SATs. If anyone would like to do their own RSS music show, find a link to our guide at RSS blue on podcast index dot social. It's in the show notes as well. Or email info at RSS blue.com. I'll help you get started 3333 from Chad F new tracks also show up at the top of search and LNBs Yes, of course it's part of the Steven

Oh no. I had nothing to do with this. I literally just approved just merge pull request. Doing all of it. Yes.

It's a beautiful tool. It's fast.

It's basically his app. At this point. I'm just I'm just moral support.

Well, I'm loving it. I run it on Start OS and it's fantastic. 1000 from Sam Sethi, CEO of pod fans. And he says but boosting the boost tab. He has a boost. And if extra events put them in a new Events tab, but leave the chapters tab alone it makes a mess up the UI and conflicts.

Well you can split it or you can split it your own way. Yeah, exactly. It's in the same file. But when you were in your UI you can you can just rip me a rip it out and stick it somewhere else. Rip it and stick it

to rip it and stick it 10,000 SATs from Sony salty crayon. This is salty crayon and we know a salty crayon. Salty crayon says how the boardroom just want to say a big thanks to both Adam and Dave for getting me to take the plunge into V for the music podcast and got something I'm putting together and after the developments of the chapter boost and the split kit. I'm doing it. Y'all motivated me to dive in and give it a shot much appreciated. Go podcasting. Well what's the name of your show, bro?

Let us critical mistake yeah.

13,579 from chimp who just says tallyho tallyho to you says it twice with twice that amount. Thank you meet us. 5000 SATs loving the helipad update. Thank you brother. Thank you Eric P P again chat F pod verse is a go. Okay, I guess. dribs start Gribbs up with a super oh he is can't remember what JCD called this booth booths a row of swans geese. Any just 55,555 sets. Thank you Brother Go podcasting. We got

the two the two Archangels of The casting 2.0 Marco Arment $500 Whoa 20 his blades on the Impala and Kevin and Tom from Buzzsprout $500.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you rose. That's so appreciated that always makes us feel good at the end of the month that we know that we we can pay the bills.

I had had beers with Tom. He was in town here in Birmingham couple weeks ago. Oh, cool. It was great. We went and had some brews and talked about everything in the world for a couple hours. It was great to see him again.

What was he doing in Birmingham? So you have family there?

It was a family thing but like him, I think is his daughter was visiting a college up here. Oh, okay. So it stopped me I stopped by to say hey, and hang out for a while. Oh, very cool. Yeah. See we got some that was it for PE pals. We got some booster grams. We get up to speed devil. Ainsley Costello 2500 SATs, pod fans. Love the show this week. So excited to be such a big part of solving for a new music industry. Big solving for music

like that. Definitely, definitely. Big part a

mere mortals podcast Kyron 2222. Through fountain he says it's true. It really is all my fault. To clarify, to clarify, mere mortals is where I do all the interviewing conversations. The value for value podcast is for education and explaining the ethos practical implementation, boosting dis at the appropriate section to see how it will show up in the comments. They will hate you for it.

You're a hated man now. Boasting everybody you're ruining it.

Gene bein good job on pod on the pod news weekly review gene. Yes.

That was funny to hear him. I liked that. It was it was cool to hear him do the alley loops for for for James.

There's rumble that he has radio chops from the past but he didn't talk about that on the show. But there's lots

of rumble. He's doing well. He's got some new things coming out. Like some sermons or something. I'm very interested to hear what he's what he's got coming out.

2020 teeth or cast Matic he says I had an idea about the deep the deep kinks. I think he may have seen deep links but he said deep key Okay. I've got to click on this interesting

autocorrect What have you been texting people?

You know, it is a I had an idea about the deep kinks David Dave talked about. But figure the details made more sense on Mastodon and he has a link to a post to on Mastodon what does he say? He says, me it doesn't already exist. Could you all define a podcast deep link spec? That says deeplinks? Dot podcast? index.org. Channel good item good should prompt opening any podcast app somewhere now. Yeah. Okay. So we've had lots of different goes at this in the past? And here's the the quick

Right. We do not want to be a DNS destination. We just want to be a playground. Yeah.

Gene if you want to build it, yeah, you should build that and then and then make it available. And then we'll, you know, we'll talk about and promote and all that kind of stuff, but we'd we're not going to do it. No. Gene been again, what was the 13372 caspases. Okay, that was cool. I pause the show, boosted, hit play and saw my boosts show up as Chapter art.

Wow. That's very cool. That is pretty cool. That's it that fast. Um, what is what is my Franco doing over there? I don't know. It might very cool.

I think he pulls the fresh chapter file every time you hit play. Wow. Oh, that's cool. RP 1984 4000 says do fountain he says FYI, office hours. 2.0 has been playing V for V music recently. Okay, office hours. That's Jupiter. Chris. Over there. Jupiter broadcasting cool. Cameron 9999, I'm assuming This is the Cameron

the Cameron of IPFS. Podcasting. dotnet

Yes. And this Depop verse he says, hell yeah for the split calculator. Oh, yes. Sounds like something he would say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's on the to do list. Todd from Northern Virginia 22 to 22. Well, the voices really crack and

you're almost there, brother. Hang in.

I see the light.

You like remember that episode, The Brady Bunch where the kid's voice starts to change. Greg. Greg one of them. Can't sing was the partridge with May was the Partridge Family. I can't remember. No, I know it's Brady was Brady Bunch,

because the song was changed

that you're just like that. Oh, thanks. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome.

You only you can see my braces. Todd from Northern va 22 to 22 through pod verse he says. Road ducks go podcasting.

Man you are really on the last party. I know what this feels like.

fussy. slewed. 54321 through fountain he says, I my wife is a gypsy and I'm a Romanian and you talk Yes. And using the word Romani as the new word for gypsy is cultural appropriation by the gypsies. Okay. Also the stereotypes you were throwing out as far as envisioning a gypsy are mostly accurate

with a blouse and the gold earrings and the nose ring Yes. All right. We Nailed it. Nailed it.

CASP eland 3693 Found any says fix the license thanks for the work. Guys Kyron 1111 a satchel Richards the podcast indexer says Could you explain what the MK Ultra chat is? Again, please, I want to start looking at getting a chat room for my podcast. Is this something that would suit my use case? The answer is eventually Yes. Right now No. Because it's it's still in pieces. Chat Room for the the MK Ultra chat is is a ephemeral chat where you spin up a chat room and it just lasts

Oh, that's an IRC channel.

Yeah, if you jump on IRC

I think you can use the void zero.net and create a channel Yeah, great. I think you're free to do that they're not gonna last mortals will have severe void zero to hook you up. Okay, and be just like just like we're just like the big boys just like the pros Carmen

the Pro. Let's see 33 over 10 69,000 SATs breeze Oh through breeze Oh, he says my boost was short probably lightning liquidity things so here's the rest JC days lost his Dave Moses his game.

Okay, yeah, thank you. I saw that come in, as well. I appreciate that. You 33 Thank you.

Nicholas B 5822 to 22 found and he says listened on web needed to boost Yeah, boost. Thank you brother. And the delimiter which threw me a curveball this week because he sent 30 2015 instead of 30 3015

Yes, this is because of the value of Bitcoin has gone up versus fiat money so he's keeping it in check.

Okay, he's got a skis recalc he recalculated? recalc

recal

Okay, cool Mr. Blogger says howdy non Slavic Caucasians days and add. Ever wonder how much rage you're packing to Planet rage. Okay. All right. Let me I gotta swallow here. To an end to Planet rage. Where two Caucasians one of them half Slavic. Rate Your theory on the latest world blunders. This week. Biden as a war president, and why Keith Oberman is our rent radar. Celebrating 100

Thank you all very much for your contributions. I'll do a quick a quick check of the tally coin but that's just an afterthought because no one uses it. Nope. Oh wait, I'm wrong. Whoa, whoa. Get up. Chimp. Chimp. Yep. 95,564 I'll call that a baller boost. That's tap tap. Is this thing on? Yes it is. It works. You did it

wasn't wasn't the gym pool fees? That is a baller boost. Wasn't

that chimp the same one that did we see chimp earlier on?

Yeah, he sent one. Yeah, yeah.

Oh you said tallyho maybe that was the key the code word tallyho go to tally coin. I got it. Okay, well, it nailed it. Dude. You can find the tallyho for on chain, Bitcoin at podcast index.org Scroll down to the bottom two big red buttons not to the platform somebody but to donate. One goes to the Fiat fun coupon gateway which is being used less and less each day which is good. Although we always appreciate our hosting partners and Marco and people jumping in with some some good

You got Michael Gagan $5 Charles current $5 Sean McCune $20 Thank you. Shawn Cohen glotzbach $5, Christopher reamer $10 James Sullivan $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Dred Scott $15 and Michael Kimmerer $5.33.

These matters. These are really sustaining monthlies. We appreciate that. We can always count on those. Each one of those is one or maybe two or sometimes three servers. So believe me, it really does matter. Brother now I really do have to You gotta stop. You gotta stop. You gotta stop. Thank you chat room. We love you. thank everybody who's listening our live studio audience. Dave, thank you so much. My brother will be talking feel better. He'll he'll he'll

You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org. For more information,

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