Episode 129: Turkish Punk

On casting 2.0 For April 14 2023, episode 129 We got Turkish punk. Hello, everybody Friday once again time for the official board meeting of podcasting. 2.0. Yes, we are the only podcast boardroom with music and it's hard. Everything happened at podcast index.org and namespace and of course, all the shenanigans and says are running at podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in Alabama, the man who rubs your pub key right into

Jones didn't know where you're going with that. Like it

like it? Well, that's what you've been doing. You've been like, making chaps and robbing pub keys into it. And I guess,

read have done Yes. I was terrified on the way home that like our guests today we've tried to skip the third time we tried to schedule a miss finally worked. And I was like, I thought oh my god, I'm gonna have a flat tire on the way home.

I was waiting for anything to happen. So I told him, I said, you know, this third time, so it's your hope it's a charm. But

I mean, for context, we I don't think we've in the entire history of the show, which was two and a half years now. Yeah, move it up on three. Yeah, yeah. entire history of the show. I think we've had one problem with a guest. And it was within enough time to where we could actually fix it and make it work now. These guests, we we've had to reschedule twice for once for like, you know, weather and the other one because I screwed it up. And

then the third time because I had to have my my, my mouth looked at again. Alright, well, we'll get to them momentarily. First of all, we're lit. This is the new thing all the kids are doing. Everyone's talking about it being lit what you want with your podcast. Now, besides pod verse, curio caster, podcast addict, podcast guru joins the crowd, you got a successful test yesterday tweeted me that no agenda had worked. So that's good. And the guru? Yeah. The guru. Exactly.

I boosted in Latvia. So I mean,

this kind of solidifies the whole idea that you don't need to be number one, you don't need to be on the chart. You don't even need to be in Apple, or orange on Spotify. You know, you just need to have your, your community, your audience, your group, sitting around participating. And and I think, I don't think podcasts guru and podcast addict. No, they don't have value for value built in. Do they're

not Yeah. It's kind

of a prerequisite for lit these days. Part of the fun. I mean, anybody can listen to a show live. And it's great that these apps are doing it. But I guarantee you listeners want to join in because boosting is fun.

is I don't want to blow anybody's cover. There's some there. Somebody there's another there's another app with Donald wants to steal their thunder. But there's another app with the Wii for free come in this this lit enabled.

Know, the pod stage has secret information.

I hate doing that crap, but it's very nice. That I don't want to I don't want to like you know, let the cat out of the bag before the developers know I'm ready. No, I'm sure that it's on the way that

they're giving the exclusive to podcast Business Journal weekly.

review, review.

Podcast Business Journal, isn't it? Isn't that the new the new newsletter really? revamped?

It didn't did it? Am I missing something or did is sounds profitable still part of

I have no I've never understood the relationship never I don't relationship No. Okay. Yeah, what are currently 12,000 Oh shoot and just lost the number 12,985 podcasts are value for value enabled almost 13,000. Then remember to help people onboard because you can onboard in so many places now. podcaster wallet.com. Contracts dot app fountain in the app itself. LB Dalbec. You Oh, yes, right. You can onboard through Alby as a good one. Do we know who's on Oh, and of course, what's Brian's?

The 3333 speaking, you cannot avoid the three wave Lake

wave wave like, oh my god, I just, it's really getting exciting. And I just got to talk about two things. First of all, Steven B's split kit is what I'm calling it.

Oh, I like that. Can you please explain this to me? Because I've been there's there was a lot of stuff that happened this week. And I could not keep track of all of it. And I saw it and I think I understand it, but it would be really helpful if you tell me what it does.

Yeah, so now I'm not quite sure how it works with everything or not. But currently, you can see yo to Eldon gar, I like split kit but E L d i n g a r.com.

That sounds like a Norse god.

I think it is. I think it is. Elgin Gar elding God Okay, we're gonna remember it now Eldon Garth, the split kid. And excuse me. That was disgusting. am 58 Oh man syndrome. And so you you connect it to I think currently it works with get Alby till you authorize it with get Alby in your browser. And then you can create a QR code or link or at the same time for a boost and splits for anything you want. So I can just, I could just create a bunch of let's say, I'm with my

So yeah, I mean, this. Yeah, this any any purpose. I mean, it's generic. So you could do you know, charitable stuff. Anything?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's.

So you basically you put you put in all your splits and it just spits out a QR code.

And you can even put an image in there. I think you do other stuff

like that. Isn't that the prism?

It's well, it's like the prism. Yeah. But it's not the prism. I think

the idea of the prism is that that that's deeper down the stack at the protocol level. But I mean, like this is a

invertible here's what's cool, because I posted a QR code on noster just assumed people would do I mean, you posted a QR code and Nasir people go oh, must must must look at this. And people were immediately using it. And so I

said the prison prison, the prison

although that's the show title the prison. So immediately people were using it on noster and the and you also get the little confetti and all that and, and I think I presume that they had their nostro accounts hooked up to their get Alby which a lot of people have and also walled off Satoshi, which and Waller Satoshi is a custodial thing.

I think it has my understanding is that they have a custom custodial component like component they both I think it's I think it can be either non custodial or custodial. Okay. But I mean, everybody talks about it as if they have a custodial service, but I've never used it. That's yeah.

Which sounds like to me as well. Which of course, is it's kind of interesting to see how the the core people who were there I think a lot of the people were yelling loudly when lightning was really starting to become, you know, people were using Lightning wallets that were custodial. This is not the way to go. We need to have you know Run runs your own node, your own node. And now we're not sure like who cares?

Pretty much. Yeah, it's funny how the all the all the dogma goes away once you have, you know, once you catch the vibe,

the wave Yeah, exactly. Well, I

mean, this never made a ton of sense to me anyway, because there's nothing wrong with having a custodial wallet that just holds 100 bucks or less. And yeah,

as long as you have a, you know, a noncustodial solution? Absolutely.

You just sweep it out. I mean, it's not like you have to keep your life savings in there.

And yeah, exact sweep it up. But also, I like, I use breeze a lot as like a real functional wallet. You know, it doesn't integrate with well actually does integrate with most things. But for instance, with a scratch scan the QR code, with my breeze wallet for the, for the split, kit, Elden gar, and it's, uh, do you want to open this URL, which I already thought was kind of cool, and open the URL, just open up, you

back to that, by the way, usually comes back I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

No usually comes up by itself. I don't have to do anything. Just there's like some kind of hiccup you have all kinds you got all kinds of trip wires and stuff. I know what you do.

It's a it's a it's a design. It's a design choice. I think we've gotten used to in the broader ecosystem of you know, like cloud technology, I think we've gotten used to things going down a lot. Because there has there was the get it out as fast as you can run fast and break things grow, grow, grow for the VC. And so cut corners will fix it, you know, we'll fix it in the first patch. Yeah, go ahead and shift. You know,

we'll fix it in the first patch.

Yeah, I mean, that's like, that's been the mindset we've grown used to this mindset for the last 15 years. And so like, but if you go into something with a slow, sort of methodical, built, you know, approach to building it, you don't you don't have to fall victim to a lot of that stuff.

Well, such as podcasts. index.org, as far as far as I know. Have we I mean, there's been some slowdowns or other things when people are attacking us or scraping us but it's been rock solid from day one.

It the the only thing that is becoming annoyingly frequent is the five is the 5025021

so much scraping us. Yeah.

I don't know if it's the same person that we did some high volume scrapers start hitting us at like five o'clock in the morning. And it's been predictable. And most of the time we're able to take it but then sometimes like that'd be the last one that happened either yesterday morning or the day before yesterday there's it was down for about half an hour,

Now, is that a scraper or is that just a DDOS at that point? Well yeah, it's a

yes an accidental denial service because the they were legitimately trying to try and scrape the database.

But the point is, it's freely available douchebags. You can go download it, we make it available for free, and what are they scraping just to stop this available for free or something? Yeah, something

no the stuff that's available for free they because they're morons. But the thing that so what's kept me from doing a you know, everything's all about budget constraints. But what's kept me from doing a rate limiting at the Cloudflare level is that it's Cloudflare is rate limiting product has always

a million times a million. Like somebody

could just like, you, basically, you're giving, you're just handing your wallet to somebody else and saying, Please don't hurt me to best. Yeah, and we can't do it was never even an option. So now they have this unmetered thing that is supposed to based on my understanding, I think we get it, I think we are able to use it without these scary overage charges. So I'm gonna give it a shot to try to fix this. Because otherwise I have to write a lot of I have to write a rate

I hear you know, what was here. So here's the here's where it gets nasty, which so no agenda, we have our own cloud of servers, which we just had historically, for, you know, at least 1314 years, probably. Which voice Zero has been managing. And we got DDoS real hard the other day. And it was, yeah, the screen? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, we go the donation segment. Oh, I'll show these guys. They're gonna ask for donations. And, and in the process, somehow, one of the

That people are so patient.

I know. And we appreciate their patience. Before we bring in our guests. I'd love to understand what you're doing with chat if you're ready to talk about it.

Oh, well, I mean, I don't even have to just talk about it. I can show you. You could show me.

What am I going to? I'm going to

let me let me signal you this.

We're not giving anything out on the Agile secret? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't give it to them. Let me see. Yes. All right. Oh, who do you want to be? Nancy?

Yeah. I would like I would I would like to

let me. Okay. What are we looking at? What are we looking at here? Tell me what's going on here?

No. Well, I think is interesting. They post this in the chat. Right, here

we go. Here we go. We're going crazy. I'm honest. I'm getting a picture of myself here. I'm gonna do it all professional.

So like, I guess I'm curious as to what you think of this of this initial screen before you actually do anything?

Well, I'd like to, I'd like this right away. Because I understood I put my name Ataman. I chose my my file. Now. But here. Wait, here's a noster thing. That's what oh, let me let me hit the nostril. Let me see authorized forever. Okay, wow. Can I change my name here? Or does it have to hurry?

Well, I mean, if it pulled it in from Noster, it's going to it's going to pull in your public your public key.

But I mean, the name I can I can apparently change my name. Because it says it was all Adam curry underscore. Okay, I'm doing that log

again. Well, cool. So I don't know.

There's just a nice, it pulled in my picture. Nice. It was in my profile picture from nostril. nostril. Okay. All right. Well, this works. All right. So tell it what are we looking at here besides the fact that it's a badass chat? Wait, do I have a secret? Oh, and I can see the stream up here. Oh, nice. Okay, I like it. That's a little player there for the stream.

Yeah, that's right. So this is what he was the idea So nice. You know, we're having our discussion last week, you know, I realized what sort of the magic is of, of the way that noster sits with people. And you me you describe that you said, You know what the magic part was that you went to you. The no agenda social went down. You went to noster threw in your public key Erythraean your private key, and boom, you're,

that correct? I think that's because I Yes, because there's like a, was it? Habla dot news, you can use your same identity to write a newsletter or a post that looks like a newsletter? So yeah, it's completely portable. And it pulls in me my name, my, my dt, if you will. Yes. Which, of course I would love to get some deets from all these beautiful people I see, like tone wrecker. I know Eric P. P, and who's who said they set up their noster just for Nathan, Nathan. Right.

So, so identity, identity is really the sort of magic sauce there. Everything else. You know, I mean, it. Relays whatever you could you could put other stuff underneath the hood. And all that's debatable. But as far as, you know, as far as just the what the magic have been thing that people are infatuated with noster is that I really think it's the identity piece.

I agree with you. But that plays Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah, you

know, but it goes both ways. Like we said last week, I mean, you you a lot of times, you don't want a static identity that follows you everywhere. If somebody goes into a chat session in a live show, they Yeah, we're both by the way, multiple, multiple different chat rooms and a single podcast live, this is this is destined for, okay.

I'm looking at both of them.

really confusing. So, so the, like, you may not want your identity or a particular identity tied to a certain thing that you're involved in. But the nice thing about about the simple Public Private Key Pair with noster is these can be possible. Yeah, be throw away accounts.

Just just like a bitcoin address. throw that one out. Use another one.

Yeah, so this. So what I what I started thinking was what if we just sort of embrace just that part of things to begin with? So MK Hoelscher was the chat server that I had pulled in or that that I had built, like, built halfway, maybe a year ago to try to start playing around with Super Chat, cuz we have lit and we were gonna say, Okay, well, let's pull in booster grams. I just had the Super Chat idea. And the idea of MK Ultra was you have you have a it's a chat room that

Oh, oh Na, you can export that and then you can you can use that as a set weight, then we can integrate that into Daniel J. Lewis is decentralized cross camera stops.

Not yet. My brain you I'm sorry, I'm

sorry. I'll stop. I'll stop. Okay,

so then you can export this timestamped Super Chat file and now you have something you can replay like a real super chat and you can attach it somehow to the episode in the feed. And for people who are you know, replaying your your episode or whatever, you can figure out the time stamping out stuff all this stuff still takes work but that you would have something to replay Okay, so if you pull if you pull that idea into any combine that with nostra identities, so you can

right? Or something or something else? Or do you want

to create an IDE, an identification? And Id?

Are you creating a container with

that? Yes. Oh, sweet. So what happens is if you create a key pair instead, if you create an identity instead of using a nostre identity, it still creates a nostre identity for you, man, after you do those, since you used your nostril identity, since you didn't see this part, no, I did that if you if you had just put in an avatar and a name and hit Create, it would have popped up and said, Here's your public and private key pair, please save

else. Oh, nice. Oh, it's awesome identity creator.

It is an identity creator. And so if but, but the key here is if you look up at the top where your your avatar is, you have the little checkbox.

Yeah. I see a little checkmark, I want my post to be ephemeral.

Yes. So if you if you that's the prince or the master privacy switch, if you have that checked and it's checked by default, anything you chat will not be broadcast back out to noster any it won't go to any realize it stays with you know what happens in the boardroom stays in the boardroom.

So what I'm what I'm posting now is going out to noster

if you haven't checked it is not going to nostril, these these

nostril. Okay, so uncheck it. And I say testing. The board room chat. Okay. Yes. All right. Now I know I go to my nostril. Yes. Funny. It was funny because I use I use snort so it makes total sense. And I go over here. Oh, man. Dave Jones, what have you done?

Now? You know, of course the drawback of nostril is it slow? You know, relays then things don't happen quick. This, this. If you uncheck that, and you and you start posting those posts should go federated out to nostril.

Okay, I haven't gotten it here yet. By the way. I do. See I got a I got a noster from Jack Dorsey.

The nostril a post post? Yeah. Okay. Hey, Jack, arguing with you about Joe Rogan? Yeah, of course.

He disagrees with me. Like I don't care. So.

So the idea like, with MK Ultra, it was already a WebSocket based chat server. That's the way it was designed from the beginning. Right. So now what it is, is a is a sort of ephemeral chat room where you control what, where those messages go. And if you just want it to be something, if you want to go into it, you're essentially going into incognito mode for the sake of this session. And then you don't have to worry about this stuff going out into the broader world. You

I love it. I love it. I love it. I mean, what a great start. They've I mean, I can see so and this is exactly what I thought Nasr would be good for, is for for doing stuff like this outside of the social network known as noster.

The good The good thing about it is not that I didn't have any sort of schema internally for this. So the nostre are sort of message format. All that stuff is basically this MK Ultra is now noster on the inside, got it? Yeah. And it even if nostril nostril fails. You know, even even if it gets us on its infection, it goes away.

This will still work this this continues to function. Yeah.

Right. And the internal schema for the messages. That's fine. I mean, I just needed one anyway, so I'll just do this one. It's not a big deal. But now the so the next step is to switch the WebSocket portion of it to speak that language and then

take it from other places as well. If want

if wanted, yes, and so then at that point, you can then we can start writing the bridges. So so the idea here is not to make this a noster thing I got the idea is to have is we want this thing sucking in. You know that way somebody can post Do you know somewhere else?

TV? Yes. IRC, I presume?

IRC? Yes. Yes. And it will it will all come in here into that. Oh, fun. It'll all get funneled in here. Yeah. And so the end the night it's pipeline a bowl, so you can

Oh, no pipeline. No Show title.

Yeah. This is wonderful. You know, this is great that people didn't think that I would anticipate HTML injection.

I'm glad. Oh, hello, everybody. Do you know who you're talking to? Is Dave Jones, the pod says you can't fool.

Anyway, the the, you can you can sort of pipeline it. And we could put this into like the, the web hook and sovereign feeds. So that when you do you notice when you spin up a sovereign state, a new live item, right, right. webhook would also trigger spinning up a new chat session, a new chat room,

but it hasn't come through anywhere on any other nostril clients, but I presume that's just because it's, it might be

the relays that is connected to you. Because you know, this is a hint here again, it's

probably nostril exact. Well, it doesn't really matter to me right now. I'm super happy with what you're doing here. This looks so cool. And it makes so much sense. And no one has to add me in the accounts. Yeah, that's the beauty. The beauty no admin of accounts. I love that. Do so

at the at the bottom, you have your public private key pair.

Oh.

And you can you can take those you know, you can copy and paste them and take those with you if you want to go and use the use your newly minted identities. Where else? Yes. I'm working on lots. There's lots of work to do. Can I

put this link in the show notes so people can play around with it when the after the after the show is over? Okay. All right, dude. Nice. All right. So we're just we're just calling this a first look.

First Look, first look, again, various. So yeah, well, we'll start bringing in bringing in other stuff as soon as the WebSocket stuff is converted.

Cool. I think it's time to bring in our guests, since we've gotten all GD, unless you have something else to talk about. But for now, I guess. Yes. Our guest today. You heard earlier we've been trying to get them in for for several weeks now. Actually, it's probably a bit longer than that. They've been working on this. They are part of the hottest new ship that is coming to value for value and the podcast index. So

Great to be here.

All this nasty stuff you guys are talking about and

yeah, I've no idea. We're running with scissors once again.

This this crazy new chat rooms get every attempt to SQL injection. Dread drips God just posted RM dash RF slash star.

Good work drive.

You got a great QA team. Krauss Oh, yeah.

What so are you speaking of speaking of nostril? Or do you how do you guys have you ever had any sort of presence on that on that network?

Yeah, yes, sir. And pup, just get a pen and pencils out. I'm ready to go.

Yeah. Do we have enough time for this? Yeah, we've, yeah, we've been we've been playing around on the roster. I think I was the I was the nostra advocate for a minute. And now, Michaels coming around? It seems like you guys are coming around to I remember, not not even too many episodes ago, it seemed like you were not super into the idea that technology is,

that's why there's two of us, you know, it's like some push back and push forward, back and then something pops out of the bottom. Let's talk about tell me about you guys and how you created wave Lake and let everyone understand what wave Lake is. Because this is, you know, we've obviously been aware of each other for a long time but trying to get in into a room. We're in the room now. Tell us where you're coming from what you're doing. Give us the lowdown?

Sure. Michael, you want to start?

Yeah, I guess. So. wavelike basically is a way for artists musicians to put music up online and get the coin in return from their fans. A lot you know in the way the value for value work. We're trying to bring that or bring music to value for value. I started working on wave like about a year and a half. I love that. Love that little step down By the way, also isn't it isn't I think it's really funny. Like,

What is the booths? Yeah, I know. I know. Yes. Like, we

don't even exist, you know,

like, right. Yeah, the kids are calling us apps now. So, you know, we I think we can just call them SATs. You know, that works, too. But

yeah, so I started working and electric tickle,

electric to another show?

Et for sure. So yeah, I started working on wave Lake about a year and a half ago. for this exact reason, I just, you know, started learning about lightning and thought, you know, I'm a huge music lover, you know, I used to play in a band. And I thought, well, this would be really cool to just have people be able to sense that to musicians, instead of having all these giant streaming platforms out there that are recommending me like just giving me terrible recommendations all

So now, wave lake itself, you have your own system running for people to pay for music and listening to you have different ways of doing that. And then we'll talk about how it interacts with value for value podcast apps. What exactly is the mechanism on wavelike? itself?

Yeah, so the way we have like work today is you sign up for an account, we tried to make it really easy. You have an email address, or a Twitter login, or a Google login. Once you're logged in, you automatically get a wallet assigned to you. And if you're an artist, you can start uploading tracks and a really, really easy to use interface. And then once you press publish those tracks go out to our website, and then we simultaneously create an RSS feed. That is podcast to Dotto compliance.

Whoa, who's got the train? Hello.

That's me. That's definitely me. Sorry, I work I work in an old industrial building. And there's three right on schedule.

Sam, clearly on the wrong side of the tracks there.

Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, so once it's uploaded, the music appears on weebly.com for our users to zap or you can just app anonymously, you can just anonymously can just you know, generate an invoice for something you like if you're hearing it and you're not logged in, you can just boost it it'll create a bolt 11 invoice for you and then you can support the artists that way and then simultaneously we have got these RSS feeds and I think yeah, some of them have been shown up on

now noster

Do you have any form of splits setup? Do you have a split editor that that people can use when when the feed is created or when their account is created?

Not yet, not but we will Got that. So yes it

because that's, that's always been my dream having dealt with I mean, I'm a radio I know Michael you're also

Yeah, even even the drummer gets a cut in that situation, which is under the burden. But none of that's, that's yet so we don't have that yet. But it's that's been in the conversation since day one. Because that's really what we're trying to do is not we don't want to perpetuate any of the existing problems and have been music industry for this time. But that we just want to make

Actually, I mean, you know, what we've been doing is we've been we have an API, we can help people create splits, you know, that we maintain if it's not on the feed? Yeah, but ultimately, you want that to be in the feed. How are you guys taking a percentage of, of of every every boost, zap, etc? That comes in?

Yeah, right now we're taking a percentage, and we're, I mean, everything's outside of that everything's free. But at some point in time, we're gonna have to have some kind of hosting fee. We're juggling how and how we're gonna do that exactly. If that ends up being like a percentage as well. Or if it's a flat rate, we're trying to figure out technically how to do that on a scalable model. But I like I mean, I really liked the percentage model. I work in the band merchandise business,

dream it up. We can. We can break dream big. We can dream

and cool thing. Yeah, you gotta have a good partner Michael always says just keep dreaming big cuz like, you know, that's the fun part.

I don't think people I don't I'm not sure people have fully realized yet the power of what Alex created when he created the medium tag for for the podcast feed. Yeah. Because it like this enables music has never had in the digital world. In the digital world music has never had a delivery protocol or delivery mechanism. That is that is open. I mean, everything has been proprietary since day one. I mean, there's been no open

not even used. And that's why they got such a chip on their shoulder about it all.

Yeah, be pissed.

You should shut up musician.

Well, I mean, there's interest, there's this like this all started off free, right. Also a free and open insert terms of music streaming. So there were mp3 That was just an open standard file format. And then there was Napster. And it was really easy to like, find people's libraries share music, all that. Obviously, that system wasn't great for artists, because people were basically just sharing music for free without

paying for it. Although although if you look at the numbers, and I remember them well, it turned out that Napster actually was quite a boon for the music industry, because people would go out and buy stuff. And I believe Spotify initially was a peer a peer to peer sharing protocol.

Yeah, I remember that. But yeah, I mean, things just kind of went behind, we kind of fit we kind of went one direction, you know, having everything open and free. And and now we've swung like so far in the other direction where everything's paywall?

Well, not just that, but the record companies, the labels themselves own own most of Spotify. And they and the way the contracts are written, you know, they can just keep raising the rates on Spotify, whenever however they want. Well, not whenever, but the contract duration is so short, the Spotify really has no way to ever become profitable.

I just got to Spotify for artists, email, guys, I think there was something. So yeah, I mean, I think there's a solution for this too, which does the same thing, although it's one another one of those bigger ideas. But I mean, I've always wanted to see some way to go back to that file sharing peer to peer file sharing system, but now incorporate something with, you know, lightning so that it can potentially fix that problem. How that happens? I don't know.

We've been down the noster guys have stars in their eyes, we've been down that road with IPFS. It's not. It's not ready for primetime. I mean, not even close now.

Not even not even close. I'm just hopeful for the future. That's something like that could come down the road.

What is your typical day? But what is the typical wave Lake? If there is one? What is the typical wave like artists look like when they when they onboard to wave like, what? Where are they coming from? What are they? Are they? Are they? Do they already have a you know, a successful thing going? Or is this? Are these new people that are just looking to sort of publish their first works? What does this look like? Typically?

It's really cool. We've seen a wide variety actually, now it's starting to expand quite a bit. I think we have over 150 artists on there now. You know, we are seeing a ton of music coming in from Africa, we're seeing a lot of Bandcamp people. Eric, you mentioned tone record, and now he's the listener. Tone record is awesome. Love that dude. You know, he uploaded 125 records, I think releases is pretty cool.

in 2006. We started the podsafe Music Network and the podsafe Music Network. The idea was you know, if you own your music and you own all the all the you know, you haven't given your rights away or you haven't you're not ASCAP BMI or whatever, you've solved all of that. And then you could put your music up on the podsafe Music Network. And when a podcast plays as podcasters, they register they go in, they

Yeah, I mean, you were mentioning it earlier, about podcasts, about music and, you know, or sorry, being able to put music in a podcast. Yeah, all the hurdles you have to jump through to do that are hoops you have to jump through. One of the things that I feel like has been lacking for so long, and

correct. And in fact, in some of these licensing, in many of the streaming licenses, you can't even have three songs back to back of the same artists you Oh, no, no, that's that's verboten. But I yeah, I still talk to guys who come from the from the industry in the show, it's broken, is completely broken. All of its broken. And this is,

Like, we have, we have this proposal for open for remote items. So we can you know, you can share play lists, like it's ready. Here's what I want to get into. Because we you know, I had spoken with you guys once before, a couple months ago, maybe three months ago, I don't remember. And y'all, you had said some stuff that really was really important and eye

Yeah, I mean, I think at a baseline, everyone knows what a streaming music app should feel like, how it looks, how you can find tracks, I can find artists, how things are organized. The responsiveness of it, you know, when you press play, music starts playing within a couple seconds at the longest. So I think with those expectations that people are just familiar with and used to, I think, at a baseline that has to do all that, well. It's got to look good, it's got to feel

I mean, yeah, I just I would like to see it be more of a direct connect between the fan and the artist, because that's really the most important part, like, people listen to music, because it means a lot to them. And they want to support artists, because if they support the artists, and artists can keep doing what they love. And it's becoming increasingly

it won't come as a surprise, but I'm not a fan of locking stuff away for premium access. I mean, that's just my, my preference has never been that way. And I've done value for value effectively for over 15 years very successfully. When I look at all the elements we have, and by the way, we have to mention again, the music side project from from Steven B,

Oh, yeah, that's gonna happen. I mean, that's, that's why that's why wavelike exists. You know, as Mike was kind of explaining how I didn't know how to do anything, but I could figure out through breeze and Sphinx and RSS feed a couple years ago that's like, oh, I can sort of create streaming money on this with my music through these podcast players. And it's super rad and I but I don't know how to build this in for an experience that's going to work for The artists are like, you

that's the beautiful thing about podcasting is you have, you know, and why that why it makes so much sense to layer music distribution on to the podcasting sort of guts, is because the main podcasters are used to that all the time dropping, you know, it's so effortless to drop an extra content in your feed. Like it's not a it's not a huge lift. And so, you know, you have this sort of like a quick feedback loop

Yeah, I think I think that discovery element is really important too. Because, you know, with all the mega streaming services, I don't know. I'm sure everyone else gets the same feeling that they're being kind of herded into the same 10 artists yet or which way you try and turn your

songs in Spotify owns the rights to,

yeah, hey, it all worked out in the end, because the labels on Spotify and Spotify will funnel people to the labels work right. And so and so I think what's really exciting about sort of open distribution and kind of different clients being able to curate content in different ways, but all on the same kind of foundational base layer of

Also, I'd like to remind us that, you know, I'm not a kid anymore. I don't think Dave can qualify. But you guys, but it's always amazing how we'll go back to the days of Napster and Limewire. And, you know, I saw my daughter, that she, she was looking for stuff, or she heard about something, and they would install the most complicated things with really no great player experience or anything like that, just to be

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like, it's like how touring works, you know, like you, there's bands that have managed to have careers and survive. For decades on being able to play club shows around the country, you know, it's like, we can go out every spring and fall and play 45 shows in and make a

I have a question for you guys. This is probably the hardest part, I would presume. How do you vet what is being uploaded? So that people aren't uploading, you know, Spotify had this problem, you know, oh, here's a movie they uploaded, you know, how do you how do you vet all that?

I mean, luckily, because everyone else had this problem before us. I mean, right now, it's super easy, because it's not things are not being uploaded at a pace that we can't just manage. But you know, there are tools, like, you know, what are they called, like, Michael helping out here? Like, like, Shazam? Yeah, like, it's just recognizes? Yeah.

Yeah. But I think verification is a big part of not only ensuring that the artist who owns material is the one who's uploading it, but I think also down the road, in terms of making sure as a fan, that my payment is going to the correct individual, you know, now we have keys and cryptography and all that, to help us verify that, you know, we're actually paying the person who made the work. I think that's a that was a big possibility, too.

That was one really cool and inspiring thing that I saw on there, in the very early days of the nap of the master bedroom was, you know, when I first logged on, there were 10 Jack Dorsey's, probably. And everyone was like, which one's the right Jack Dorsey, and then you're looking at follow list to see who's okay. It's like, I think maybe this person is following this person, they probably know, you know, but then they fix that really click with one of the new 57, which I

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's another good thing about about podcasting is It's decentralized but as decentralized through it's almost like activity Pub is It's decentralized sort of towers of, of control. So you have because pure decentralization, I mean, we all know pure, pure 100% decentralized things is very, very difficult. Like yeah, Like monumentally difficult so much that so many people have been trying for years and years and years, and it still has

Yeah, that was, that was some really good advice that I got from from Roy breeze early on, he was one of the people that I talked to first about this, just because breeze was one of the first you know, things bright, was able to plug music into and stream stats over over it. So. But in the end, the early conversations with Roy was like, you know, how do we do this? How do I get someone to build this? Like, what will you

yes. Oh, yeah. This it takes a lot of time. But when I see the, what has happened with value for value in in just two years, even the biggest detractors who've come around, I mean, it Yeah, takes time. But it is a logarithmic scale. It goes up fast. At a certain point, it just moves it really moves.

Yeah, slowly.

I think one of you guys are saying like there's pent up demand for these kinds of products out there. And I think, you know, the early adopter crowd, who's understood who understands value for value, who understands what we're trying to do a wave like, you know, I just get the sense that they've been waiting for something like this to happen for a while. And they get it and I think it's just a matter of time before you know other people kind of

follow along.

Yep, they are gonna have to do some work though. Freedom doesn't come without that extra step. That's that's what it always boils down to. And we see the people who are successful with value for value in podcasting, you know, they've, they've taken that extra step you got you got to

Yeah, that's that's there's no comparable experience to that. I was one of the musicians we were talking to a Nashville was was saying that exact same thing where he was saying, you know, if I put my stuff up on a major streaming site, I might see a check from them for a few cents after it was actually listened to, and he's like, but on your side, I'll get boosts I got boosts, like the first day I had music

Do you even see streams created on Spotify in real time? Or is that also an end of month report?

You can see like through aggregates like TuneCore district kid date, you can you can definitely cannot see it in real time. You can see it sort of like maybe a 24 hour delay, you can get estimate estimated streams. But it's the there's no depth to it. It doesn't feel you know, you feel nothing from it. It's hard to really feel anything for the music business, just like soul sucking lightness, lifeless experience. Overall. I've been doing it long enough to know. But yeah, it's,

That's a good point. I mean, I even see it was with podcast episodes. You know, people go back and they listened they start some start at one now, you know, but they people will listen to all kinds of older material and then still send a booster gram or something like that you see it? You know, she's for a minute stream coming in? Oh, yeah, it's phenomenal. It's a wish everyone could could witness this. I wish you could have that feeling people. Everybody needs to see like, get

I was just gonna say, Michael, you've got enough. You've got enough coding experience now with creating podcast feeds and doing that kind of thing. What? What do you think? I'll see how don't want to ask this. Do you see anything missing? Or do you need? What do you think music? As a platform layered on top of of a podcast distribution? What? What do you think is? Is there anything missing? Or is there a thing? Are there things that you can think of that you would love to

Yeah, I mean, I can say, first of all, that you guys have done a great job with the spec. I'm not a spec guy. So to be able to go to GitHub, and just see it all laid out and see the motivation and the rationale behind all the decisions. That's

an album Mark can come back finally.

Yeah, and then yeah. And then you have, you know, podcast show art is album, I mean, all these things can be easily translated. I think anyone can make the can make the leap pretty easily. And so yeah, as far as the limit lacking I would say, there's, there's more than enough there to do music and more.

What let me ask you about that on the transcript side, because what do y'all do LG lyrics now?

Any? No, we? Yeah, I mean, we're pretty small team. We actually just hired one other developer and brought him on And alas, Oh, congratulations. Thank you. That's been a it's been a big, it's been a big advantage. And it's also a big change. Just you know, having a third person join us. But yeah, it's been great. Josh, if you're listening, you're awesome, man.

Thank you, Josh.

But we love you, Josh. You rocks. You totally rocks. But yeah, I think I'm sorry. I lost train of thought there was yeah,

like a deal. Like, how do you handle lyrics? Do you do? Do you do anything about generation? Or do you allow your artists to submit lyrics or ahead? What is your plan for that?

I think we would, I think eventually will allow artists to submit their lyrics. And then I think there's also a way to timecode them if I'm not mistaken, in the Yeah, so that would be great to have not only the lyrics available, but also you know, cuts of a track with the song as the as the person is listening to it. Yeah, so I would I would love to see that in the future.

Okay, it'd be cool to use the transcripts to have it auto generated and then give give the artists the ability to go in and edit the transcript. If, for some reason pick something up from I've used those before, and like, you know, auto auto transcribers, and like, their 99% there, but sometimes they get things a little bit goofy, it'd be cool to be able to adjust it but have that stuff all automatically there. At least the start would be great.

If you guys don't mind. I'd like to read a couple of booster grants that have been coming in. People have been asking some questions making some comments. And you've probably heard the pew pew so we'll kick it off with hard hat thinking hard hat one a 101. Boosting from curio Kassar, it just says boosting fun, of course, take that. another row of ducks tu tu tu tu from hard hat. Mike Dell keep on running

It was almost a Satoshi slam but he was 11,001 he was a satchel of Richard's away from Satoshi slant. Holy

crap. Oh, I like how you calculated that you had that ready to today if you were ready for that one. That was ready. Blueberry 17,776 Big freedom boost I want to give big thanks to Sam for guidance through setting up a BTC pay server. The lightning dot store website is amazing. And seeing it was the kick we needed for BTS and the V for V swag is going to be a hot wet summer of garage printing. All right. Blueberry, Steven B

That's yeah, that's Yeah, question.

It is a great we've we've had some good conversations in our telegram chat about just the concept of genres, you know, what they what they really are, we definitely need to work on some kind of filtering. But it's tough to know exactly how to do that because it's you sort of have to predefined a lot of them I think or else you can get a lot of duplicates and goofiness. And in just the way things are formatted and stuff, but I think that's a tough one because you

Is that something that is self selecting, though? I mean, it's always been a bone of contention with podcasting as well, what category? What type of podcast is this? I mean, I don't know. Dave, do you have any thoughts on that?

Well, it's it to me this, this all goes back to discoverability. Problem and discoverability. I will say problem in quotes. Because the issue when you when you want to categorize something, the only reason you categorize it is so you can find it later or so somebody else can find it. By Category instead of if, when they don't know what they're looking for. So if you have in that only really works, if you have, if you go in there and choose, let's just say no metal

This is what I always liked about Napster is, you know, if I search for a song, and I found it, then I was like, Hey, what is this guy? Have? You know? And then you go, because if you if if that person had a collection, don't just a listener had a collection of songs I probably would like, then I would find other things in there. When Dan came that, that discoverability that's what I think is the key.

Yeah, that's definitely a way experience on Napster. Yeah, that's a way better way to discover music, like this person, or, you know, through playlisting through through that exact thing. Recommendations. Yeah, it's

so yeah, go ahead, Sam.

I'm done. I think we got a little bit of a delay. I'm good.

Okay, I'm just gonna say genre, like genre is really tricky, because I think it's so subjective. Like some listener, you know, you've mentioned metal core, like, I'm sure there's nine different sub genres of metal core, that metal core fan like, you know, you get offended if you were to put one with the other but, and then the other tricky thing is like, when you're in a band, you like, you think you're one thing, right? Other people, like, if you have an agent, or like, like, you

mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say, you know, if, if there was an app that just had a trail, you know, here's, here's what else I listened to be. I'm not even something not even not a playlist necessarily, that I put together, although that's also that's also valid. But just oh, here's the stuff I was listening to the I come back to this every single time I opened up fountain, I saw Dave Jones, who had boosted something. I went to go listen to it right away. It wasn't for

Put in this question.

When you're stumped, we have stumped the band.

So I think Dave alluded to this a little bit when he was talking about the way we want the fact that we want to make sure that music is presented in a way that's that just looks good that make that that sort of puts it puts its best foot forward, so to speak. And one of the concerns we had about auto loading the feeds into podcasts index was that we were concerned that these albums might show up on well, they would show up on value for value podcast players presented sort

greatest, faster, build faster, build fine. Sam, Seth, the CEO of pod fans comes in with 10,000 SATs. He says add rel equals episode or rel equals track to create a pod role or music role to create playlists. So he's already thinking we have that we have another 10,000 from Sam Sethi. He says boost our

Yeah, sure. We don't have any one off PayPals this

version completes conversion completes.

But we do have lots of boosts we've got a 808 a boo boost from chat as he says verifying my feed well Chad your feed is verified through the tricolor. That would be the Swedish tricolor. I'm imagining 1234 through fountain. He says in his message it says podcasting.

Yes, podcast podcasting.

Let's see somebody Oh, that's that's me. What how did i How did I How did I boost myself probably

illegal by the way in 2016. So

I know and I know what this is. This is Dave Jones says 2112 And it says through breeze Dave Jones again here and I don't care about verifiable identity. That's me. I know what that's okay. Yeah, and I think I know who this is. Yeah, this Yes. points. Point taken. Yes. Point taken 20 And he just keeps on going. Todd from Northern Virginia 11 111 Big satchel Richards through breezes is boosted boosted real good. Sorry. Boost. Nicholas B 58 5000 SATs through fountain. This is

Good enough for me. Yeah, I'm

gonna Yeah, I'm gonna boost you on that for that one.

Okay sorry sorry for this shameless plug. Great work guys. Thank you. And another another one the last one from Nicolas be 58 through fountain and he says another boost boost boost. Clark in my buddy 25,001 SATs through fountain Ed says boop beep all right, don't just boost our Davis at seven 4000 SATs the pod verse in our Davis says as to the discussion at the beginning of the show on transcripts, I don't think as a podcast listener and a future podcast producer, I don't think

You're in the minority there.

Normally Think About It with Think About It with music. I mean, look we're talking about today I mean, a word for word follows a bouncing

ball.

Mm hmm it's pretty strong. I mean, like I can imagine especially for you know, hearing impaired I don't I'm high on the word for word timestamp.

I'm with you.

I'm with you on that. Are David's 87 4000 SATs through pod verse again. He says I love all this web hook talk in JavaScript. I can't get enough of this hot namespace talk gets me all excited to go podcasting and pod Father, if you will. Yeah. Please give me a goat screen. That's in the that's the other day.

Actually have it somewhere.

Mere Mortals 2222 through fountain.

Found the co founder. I found the goat

goat delivered. The Standards Project does sound like a lot of politicking. I wish them all the best with it. High five. Yo, yo. Joel who says hello? Richards through fountain? No, no, thank you, Joe. Jean bein elite boost 1337 says hopefully fountain will want to be PSP certified and will implement transcripts. True

that answers my question.

What was your question?

I wondered if they had transcripts? I guess they don't. They don't.

Okay. Gene being again, delete moose through cast Matic is this How is what Adam wants from noster different from an OAuth or open ID system? I think it I mean, I think it's because there you can create them with it's just a public private key private key pair and you could tell some of the things just because the throwaway identities and they don't require near as much work. Yeah. I mean, that would be my,

Oh, let's have him to turn back on. I don't think I can control that. Can I? I don't think I can turn them on.

We have to request it from Oscar Oscar. We'll

do it. Yeah, let's turn them on. Sure. I mean, clearly it works. And I thought I had I thought by adding a split in there, it would actually enable them. So anyway. Yeah, I'll ask Oscar to turn on. Absolutely.

Gene been 10,000 says the foundation has really enjoyed Tom and Kevin being on the show and all the hot namespace talk.

You guys are sick. Okay, y'all. Like it hotter namespace talk,

sir. twin screw 1893. He says I'm with you, Adam. I like the nostre concept. It's kind of like keybase

Oh, yeah. I don't like Cubase. Interestingly, I understand what you're saying. Yeah.

Alex had a good analogy for noster the other day he said it's sort of like ham radio relays.

Oh, totally. That's why That's probably why I like it. That in fact, there is a protocol out there based on the J x nine protocol I think that works on very low power and you can actually it's all digital so you have a program on your on your laptop and connects to your radio. And people can your your radio can function as a relay to send the signal further when it receives it from one to the other. And I can already see some some crazy person setting up a Nastar on ham radio jet to

doesn't NBK do that. Because he was like a ham. I thought he was a ham radio guy.

I think I don't know if he does that. He's definitely a ham radio guy. You know, I was arguably I was the first person to receive SATs over ham radio. Someone else claims that but it was

Yeah, I thought he was he was doing the SATs over ham radio thing. Was he doing that with you?

Know It was somewhat I don't know. It was sold as years ago. I don't remember. I don't remember.

Yeah, ham father to

know. They call that no, wait for it. They call that an Elmer. So no, I'm okay. Being an Elmer

Steven B 1000 SATs through through the elding gar app. Oh, nice to see a new app show up. Yay. He says elding gar easy podcast link builder test boost. There. You weren't by Stephen. by five. He got about about six days and they're all good Steven boomie of the lb teams and has 2100 SATs and he says high five.

Yo, yo, thank you. Borlaug.

101010 coronary whoa

Sakala 20 is Blaze. Oh my. Oh my god. I figured we throw that in for Sam. We're getting their train going you know.

Don't get another train and

you need train in your podcast. Thank you Borlaug. He says how many sets does it take before we can put board member on a CV like anaise episode? That Oh, baby.

Oh, that's that's a good question.

Well, often, how many sets will it take to get Mr. Dave Jones to do another weekly podcast another week? No, a lot more than 100. I love what you're doing. And I love both of you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you Borlaug. Thanks for that cast VLAN 3692 found and he says like the Gnostic talk getting some old BitTorrent Sync feelings around the things I thank you for working for free.

BitTorrent saying how you doing booth? Yeah, I remember. Remember another failed project, too bad

decent 100% District decentralization is? I'll say it again. It's impossibly difficult, although

I will say that, you know, as someone was looking to pull in all the old daily source code archives. Someone I think I think Chris Chris Freising founded some some lonely old dude still out there, had a BitTorrent Sync Node up with all the daily source code episodes and we were able to collect them from that one from that one person.

He's also the guy that runs NTP or whatever, like

what an NTP you know,

like Network Time Protocol,

that old dude and NTP isn't that NTP the network

doesn't use this use net in into NNTP. He's using it.

Oh, okay. What was yeah, I forget what it was.

Yeah, that are to see our Davis at seven 4000 SATs through pod verse. He says a day before pre boost boost at this way saying I'm getting last year, a day before pre boost boost. TM pod father and podsafe just finished listening to the future podcasting and wondered about your thoughts on Daniel J. Lewis. His proposal for cross app comments also interested in hearing your thoughts about the ideal of making the chapters comments and transcripts, transcript tags, child tags of

You already shut me down when I just when I just brought it in. You shut down. And rightfully so.

Yeah. I listened to Dan. I listened to that episode with Daniel and Dave. Great description. And I think it deserves its own sort of breakdown. They did an

episode about the about the crosstab. I'll have to listen to that. Obviously that right after we're done.

Yeah, yeah, I opted for that instead of reading the documentation,

right. Yes. Thank you,

lyceum. 2222. So see, blah, blah, blah. Nope, that was that was one we already got and Macintosh. 2100. Just listen to the Marty bent interview. Love it. Dave, when do you sleep? I can't wait to hear more about this new tool today. Yeah, well, you just heard it. Yeah. Good, good appearance on TFT. See there.

Thank you. Thank you. I love Marty. I want a great, great guy. Yeah.

And we got the delimiter comic strip blogger 30 3015 through fountain, and he says, daring Dave and artfully

if you boost Thank you gentlemen. Good booths, everybody. Appreciate it. It's value for value and I think we probably have some monthlies or some PDFs that have come in that we want to thank people for.

We do we got some monthlies. We got a pod verse $50. Thank you Mitch. Oh, Lauren ball $24.20 $24.20 got basil Phillip $25. Mitch Downey also a pod verse $10. Christopher Hara Barack $10. Terry Keller $5 Chris Cowan $5 Jeremy Kavanaugh $10 Jeffrey Rutherford. $5 David Norman. Hey David $25 Damon. Kesa Jack $15 Derek J. Vickery. $21 and lovely name. Paul Saltzman $22.22 and Jeremy gerdts $5.

And, and believe it or not, we have a tally coin. Tally coin on chain Rev. From No no, no, no, no. From this is from chyron

Oh, for Mere Mortals. Yes,

he says Sam is super cool. That will be Sam Sethi who we interviewed Did you hear that interview? Did you hear that? That interview they did.

Dave not yet.

Get Akito

feels like we barely scratched the surface such kind words. So this is to make Adam feel warm and fuzzy inside 30,330. SAS thank you so much current appreciate I love it when someone uses Italie coin, because so many people requested it because they're gonna send us plenty of mucho Bitcoins. And it

No. This is really, this is awesome. We covered we covered all ground.

Everything exhaustive.

Yes, I am so excited about the future and what you guys are doing and will continue to keep motivating app developers. I mean, it's it's a it's a heavy lift. You know, creating, creating an app is not easy. Of course what is very cool. Is there several open source projects that that people can use to get a start with where are those do we have? Do we link to any of those Dave? Was there any time player is that one? I mean, there's Yes, you can you can pick up by

Did not see a ROI boost. Maybe we said something? Maybe we offended him?

He's like, No, I am not sending anything to them. I'm just going to sleep now.

It's my it's my fault for knocking down a takedown. noster need.

I'm gonna talk to you. I know. Now wave Lake is already integrated as an app, isn't it into breeze?

Though I think it needs to be updated. Like the old version was on there for a second. So I don't think it really works. Now we have to get that upgraded on the new version of whatever the new version of race comes out.

Leave it to me. Let me talk. Let me talk to

you take care of Roy. Oh, yeah,

it's what I do. I love taking care of Roy. But I do.

I wanted to say it again. I love Roy's rugs the best and

he's a great he's a great person. Great person.

All right, gentlemen. Well, thank you so much. Continued success. We're here whenever you need something. Whatever we can do, we'd love doing it. Dave any final words?

I mean, if you'll indulge me I just wanted to get a wanted to get one recommendation from Michael and one recommendation for Sam for an album off of yes, you know alpha off of wavelength that they are stoked about. Now Now you each have music. Also. You're both musicians. There's one cannot you cannot reference yourself horns coming back to haunt you. You what? Give us one give us one each What do you enter? Okay, yeah.

I'm trying to find the name of it because I've already forgotten the name. It's the Turkish punk band

All right, punk.

I like it Turkish punk band. I like it.

Oh, well. Okay, so while you look that up? I would recommend a band called Silver unit. Awesome. Yeah. Have a great one. Yeah, they have an album on wave like that. I really dig so I would recommend that one.

Yeah, actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna give a shout out other than like the easy ones Jim Martin to homewrecker. I'm going with man like quex he did the M Pub song is sitting at number two on our top 40 right now. And it's the first track to drop wave lake in lyrics, which was pretty

nice. Hearing that you guys have a top 40 May I just say that as soon as we can as soon as possible. I would love to do the wavelength top 40 Show.

Countdown Oh, yeah. Okay, some style,

everybody. Y'all I would love if as long as we got with value blocks. I will do that sounds so cool. I will do it. I love to do it. And I am. I'm excited about that idea.

Can we get a wave like foo bar Friday? Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. Be very, very cool. And I think that would that would hate people love charts, man. If we could do something like that. And then definitely, I'm all in.

Yeah, I grew up listening to Casey's top 40 Every weekend

now it's a long distance dedication. Alright guys, have a great weekend day my brother have a good weekend. You too, man. All right, chat room. Thank you all very much for joining the boardroom of podcasting. 2.0 we return next week once again to bring you all the best in podcasting.

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