Episode 128: Fully Fingered

Oh, podcasting 2.0 For April 7 2023 Episode 128

your bro he didn't get distracted by the computer I was like I just I was waiting for you to fall out and you know get that because I was like hey, we don't have a chat room we need to know when to rip is if you got a boost and we're right in the middle of the intro.

Everybody starts ripping and boosting. Hey brother, how you doing Dave?

Good. Finger free. I'm back.

Your what finger would you say finger free?

No, no, I'll see what 10 of those a fever free. Okay, yeah. Billy fingered and No. in unfavored

alright show titled fully fingered when you write that down right away. Okay, I'm liking

one of our guests today is is also Hi, so

we'll get to our guests in a moment. First, let me check in a little bit. I am really excited. I have we are live by the way. For those who don't know what it is live item tag we are lit and live. Get one of those swanky modern podcast apps at podcast app.com The ones that we're currently pod verse curio Kassar podcast addict love it I hear by the way fountain is very close.

To get close to what?

To lit to implementing lit.

Oh, where did you hear this? I did not hear this.

I heard it straight from the horse's mouth I heard from from Oscar know from an Oscar from I forget his horse. And this horse knows his brother known as brother his. His partner. His partner, Mick Yes, thank you. Okay,

yeah. The horses Oscar though. I mean,

yeah, apparently, apparently, they're, they're not far behind.

What did you say? And when did they say it?

Well, you said where are you? Well, here's how it went. So I got a Twitter DM. And I'm I'm not on Twitter that much anymore. Actually. He's amazing that he got through to me because I mean, the doge dog is too triggering. Every single time I see that thing like ah, it's like, I can't look at that. Also, Have you have you noticed that I don't think you're much on net vertebrate ever since April 1. And I don't have I've never had a blue checkmark. And I don't intend to pay for one. I

because all the bots are not engaging anymore. I

know I mean, people aren't I don't think people are seeing me as much I'm not sure exactly what's happening. I don't really care.

Have you been when they call that dT d not filtered? Yeah, like D de emphasize or? I don't know what the word is for it and I don't know they like what they do where they used to make you artificially push you down in the rank Yeah, direct?

I guess so. I guess I guess without a blue checkmark. I think I think that's what happens. Shadow banned. Yeah, that's what I don't think it's really shadow

I knew this you know me well enough right? Yes at about at about post 12 I was like yeah, that and this is where Adams gonna bring this up.

What are we doing but I don't understand. Here's what I think. So someone made a library Steven did crater make this someone Megalodon Stephen

crater Yeah. Trent which is great name but transcript dater Ella was just

I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I knew that Mitch is like, Oh, cool. And Mitch was trying to get it to work. And I follow that I love following that stuff, by the way, like, oh, man, I'm glad I'm not Mitch. And so I watched

Mitch implement stuff. I mean, like, within 10 minutes, it's built so yeah, but

I know he was having some issues. And I love seeing that that camaraderie that brothership back and forth. And then all of a sudden, I just see people piling on when I see the the good old, it's gotta be JSON. Like, oh, where's Daniel J. Lewis? Okay, he's around here. Then there's like, well, you know, and usually James curriculum will say I implemented it in five minutes on my own website, and then it goes back and forth. And then it's like, should it be 32

This all started with Carl Bondo. Ah, yes. Okay. Okay. Got, he said. He said he just piped in and said, question about transcripts, have podcasters landed on a final transcription format for podcasting in the wild as the podcasters jam SRT, with time codes into their show notes. While PC people know podcasters use SRT, start at SRT. Meanwhile, do HTML, JSON, VTT, and text versions have value in podcasting. Is it being decided for us by big transcript? Or is

But this carried over from a discussion on GitHub even because I remember Yes, jumping in that that discussion, just say, hey, while y'all are arguing, this is what people will this is the UX people are looking at. And I just posted a a Tiktok video to show the people who bam bam bam word, which I find incredibly exciting to do something. Maybe put it this way. I see. There's a there's got there's a huge difference between what we use on the back end and what that

That thing was beautiful. That is a killer interface.

Yeah. And so I wonder if there's general confusion between the two in this in this technology back end conversation? Because I for what I can read. And Macedon doesn't do threads really great for me for the way my brain works. There's what I what I can read and understand it seems like that there is some flow between what's how you know what format it is, and how that surfaced on the, in the app. And quite honestly, I find pure closed captions or subtitle formats

I think it comes I think there's two issues here. Per it's word word for word timestamping versus like per line which is what it which is the SRT way. So with JSON transcripts, you can get a timestamp on every single word. So then then you use it I mean, you can do you can imagine that made this pass it's the most powerful way to go. Because you can get down to word level accuracy with clips and stuff.

the way, that's what pushes way for good old school waveform What's wrong with you? We use we go ahead,

you see the matrix we I get you. But like for, but that that's the Pat light for you can imagine for a phone. You're gonna get you get a mobile app here and you're gonna do editing like you're gonna do a clip in a phone. That's PESA pain in the butt. But if you could clip it based on the, on the transcript on the words, oh, that would be so much.

Okay, but we're already now. Okay, so we're already moving on to something about clipping. And

but I'm just making a point. Okay, okay, I'm not moving and I'm moving the conversation, I'm just saying that like that, that you can see the power of a transcript, word for word transcript, to let the app know at any moment where the audio is in sync with the transcript. So that that's like the most powerful part of it.

I'm with you. Yes, I'm with you. I got you there. But of course, no one has that system. But I'm happy to run it through a a translator. I would say, you know, having multiple versions, you know, almost like a, like a multiple alternate enclosures, I think might be a mistake at this point in the mean. It'd be I mean, if we ever have to output three different versions, and then have three different MBM, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of stuff that that people want people to do.

We'll see that okay. So that's the other that's the other part of this. That's my job. You have that word for word, accuracy debate. And so then you're going to have people fall down on either side of that, that discussion where they say, Okay, well, why do we need a whole bunch if word for word is just simply the best? You can always go lower resolution you can't go higher. And there's another factor in here too. I'm

Stop right there. Who cares if the French Give me a break?

How dare you

take him along with my con.

Yes. So that the fridge got really pissed. I mean, Benjamin Bellamy Well, I

Well, I didn't realize I missed this whole. What happened? Why what what? Well,

because because he's upset about the 32 the 32 word limit. And SRT file and this so so SRT, but,

but it's not a matter of the language is just a matter of the French.

Yeah, yeah, it's a matter I'm using Benjamin as a stand in for quote, the French.

I didn't know if it was a language thing. Okay. I got the friend ever bent out of shape. Basically, that's basically their culture. Okay.

Yes. If you know one French guy, you know all Wow. It's like the it's like the what the reggae.

crack open a Bud Light. All right. Let's go.

I love you, Benjamin. But see. So the the the SRT has a line length? Yeah. And because it stands, it just does per line. And so Benjamin was saying he doesn't like the fact that is a 32. word line length, because it doesn't take advantage doesn't like, take advantage of other languages with longer, longer work. Your character says more do Yes,

Oh, yeah, that sounds that sounds reasonable. Yes.

So you got two ways in which the JSON file format is superior. But at the same time, you know, you you have this other debate, which is getting mixed in which, which is almost like subtle asides. It's like under the covers here, which is the should the namespace dictate the format? Or just the delivery?

Oh, okay. Uh, well, I can give you my immediate thinking is, it should not dictate the format at all. Agreed.

I agree. That's the date the protocol, the protocol for delivery, not the final format of the theory.

Agree. Agreed. Not how it would be like saying you it would

be like the namespace declaring which audio format you need to use right enclosure, right. Got it. Got it. But I think that's because that was part of the debate. as well as like, oh, you know, why do we need three of three of these formats supported in the in the namespace? I think, you know, really, there's always going to be new formats and things over over time. We should probably that we should probably make it more clear in the namespace documentation that

So a couple questions, some practical things, because, you know, of course, this has been this should have probably been done a long time ago, this conversation because a lot of people's processes and things are set up. And I'm, you know, I'm not sure about everyone, but I know that I'm pretty set in my ways. I've got stuff going, if I have to change, what will a break? You know, there's all these

Well, I mean, the long time ago thing like this, this is another reason why it's good on occasion to slow down and go at a slower pace. Because sometimes you can't anticipate these sorts of things over time. Now, the line length thing has been debated for a while. But then like some sometimes there crops up a certain strain of thinking down the line, let's just say six months down the line of a thing that you're doing. It's like, Huh, well, now that's an interesting thing that

Well, just so you know, speed does not kill the sudden lack of speed. That's what I would I would caution people then. The one thing I don't like when I see this debate, is when someone says, Well, you know, only half a percent of all podcasts actually have transcripts. So what are we talking about? Yeah. And that's a very accurate depiction of the voice whoever that was.

I've heard that guy. Yeah. Yeah, I know that guy. And that always

find is that's such a that's such a buzzkill. When someone does that, it's like, come on.

What I always think about when I hear people say there's only only such and such percent of podcasts do X I'm not thinking is always immediately will only only, like less than 1% of podcasts are any good anyway.

And you're listening to it right here. Yeah.

So I mean, like, okay. Oh,

okay. All right. So I guess the real question is, well, maybe we should bring in our in our boardroom guests, because this is automatically going to flow it over into some other conversations and they have some more new stuff that they've deployed for a while that that, obviously, where am I here? That needs to be discussed, because it's also kind of exciting stuff. And they've been in the boardroom

Heck, yeah. This whole, like scrape onions on this stuff.

We didn't bring any here for opinions just to promote.

I mean, it's fair to fair to categorize you guys as ambassadors from the fortress of freedom. I love it. I love it. Of course, you know, fortress of freedom, which is in the basement of the Hall of Justice. So yes. So I mean, what are you what is your yelling opinion?

Oh, my gosh, well, first shadow ban. I'm trying to tell you the word over and over again. I gotta get it. Okay. Oh, yeah.

I don't think shadow ban. I disagree that it's not shadow banned. I've just I'm not playing along with the with the money game. So I get deprioritized.

I agree. I just wanted to help. Dave is looking for Thank you, even if it was the wrong word. Yes. Um, so I got the transcript stuff. Um, I think you're

telling the origin of the 32 character limit?

Oh, you know where it came from?

Now, you gotta you guys did transcripts very early on. I mean, you've supported the namespace and everything from you know, almost from the get go. So I'm not quite sure if it was the chicken or the egg. I know that all of a sudden, I was using otter.ai, which is really really weak. in its in its, you know, in its AI capability. But I'm just using it it kind of works. I know the workflow, but I think it's it's all I've always had put SRT was that not the genesis of what we were using?

It is? Yeah, you're exactly right. And that is where the 32 character limit came in here because that was their default when you exported an SRT from otter. Their defaults were two lines. 32 characters, right. So there's no standard around that you can make an SRT 64 whatever number you want, and as many lines as you want, but because there was no standard way to choose something, and a lot of people were using audit at the time, so we just said, Let's just use whatever their default is.

Okay? And Dave made a really good point, which is you can always go to a lower fidelity, but you can't go to a higher fidelity. And so that was, you know, the issue with, you know, some of the conversation like the JSON allows you to just you could do it per word, or you could do it per phrase. It just gives you a higher fidelity transcript. And

Well, is SRT, limited to the 32 characters. Is that the is that the

problem? No, like Kevin said, there's, there's no, there's no standard for you how

the problem though, here's the problem that the student the SRT file itself, is can be anything but in the namespace, it says, SRT, Max characters per line 32. Grand gotcha, right. And this, this is what helpful

to be able to provide some sort of structure for app developers, so they would know what to expect. If they download one SRT and 64 characters in line, and then they downloaded Another one had 32, then their code becomes much more complicated trying to figure out how to display this stuff,

right?

I'm just gonna we just namespace Should we just go in there and say in just parenthetical Reto says Max characters for line 32, in parentheses out to the side, just a suggestion.

I'm looking at otter and otter, you can output one to 10 lines as your output option, and Max characters five to 200. So they don't even get you to the one word resolution.

Know that their default? So their standard, if you haven't customized it before their default was 32. And two, yes. Correct. And then you can change it from there. Yeah. And so

the transcripts we're seeing now are much higher fidelity down to the to the word, and that's where the JSON makes more sense, it's a better format for being able to share transcripts.

All right, but so then, so all I'm saying is, there's no JSON output on otter, so I'm gonna have to make a change, I'm happy to do. But you know, one little change, you know, you do a couple of degrees on the rudder, and this whole ship has to go and it takes a long time for people to get into it. So I'm just saying caution of whatever we decide, or whatever we want to get to.

Well, that's the beauty of the way the specs written is you can, you can do them all. So if you go to a Buzzsprout transcript here, you'll see them in any format we can support. So even if you upload an SRT, we'll make it available as an SRT and as JSON.

No, while you guys are just Goody goodies of the class, aren't you?

Hey, I thought this is humblebrag time.

So who does who does word for word JSON? Like what? Plus

descript is one that we integrate with? Currently, that gives us the per word?

And you can also get out of whisper? Well, whisper No, that's, yeah, I mean, you can just run whisper on your own computer and punch out in JSON. So I mean, AI is changing transcription. So like otter Rev. For years, they were just looking at the waveform itself and trying to pick up like the

say just common denominator. I would say the most people are just going to use whatever their their podcasting host uses. I mean, if I'm if I'm completely independent, which I am, then that's that's my issue to go figure that out. Right? I mean, that's, that's just how it works. If you either go with with the big flow and the big ships, or you do a jeroni, and you roll along, however you want to. So I just thought I just thought it was interesting, this

Israel Apart from so close,

issue closed,

what I'm going to open it again with me for another reason musics match this company, they click, they seem to have done their luck involved with lyrics and stuff in USI X, ma tch musiXmatch. They, I know that they are contacting podcast apps to try to get them to integrate their transcripts into the app. And I guess I'm a little conflicted. I mean, there's some because the the transcript is not in the RSS feed. So this would be coming from a third party service. And

That to me is exactly the same as calling YouTube podcasts. There's no feed going in no feed coming out. Now. I'm against that it's outside the spec. Yeah. Okay. That's, and I understand, I think it's great that they're offering that. But why do they why? I'm not quite sure. First of all, what guess what's their business model? How do they what how does that work? I mean, that I presume they're not offering it for free.

Yeah, that and that was my thing is I don't I don't understand where the they're there. They seem to be VC funded. And so I don't know what the play is. And I know that I would rather that if there would make more sense and be more in the spirit of, of openness, if they would do integrations with with hosting companies, if they want to provide that service, and then just get to things into the feed the proper way.

Yeah, I mean, this is this is exactly where it comes down to with open podcasting versus everything else. And, and particularly if it's, to me, it sounds like he's, he found it, okay, we're going to get as much market share as we can. And so I can see where it's very attractive to a podcast app to have transcripts for everything that

Nathan said that they do host integration. But you and I know that but me elite in at least one case that I know of they were they were talking directly to the app developer to say, hey, we can provide your transcripts for, for for episodes that are not that don't have a transcript in the feed. I guess

I can see that as being valid. But beware. If I let's say I didn't have a transcript in my feed, then now in app a, there's transcript running and then brought to you by Bud Light, you know, then, okay, you can then you're gonna piss me off.

This train script, it's like, it's like on a sport. It's like on sports when they you know, the end zone is brought to you by every niche, right?

I mean, that's, that's where we just got to be careful. That's all No, but I don't see your problem. In general, if if an app wants to have transcripts for all of their I mean, for a while they're out and don't just fountain even show transcripts at all, I can't find them. I don't think they show transcripts.

didn't know

they were doing their own thing if you wanted to clip and then you'd have to wait two hours for the transcript, a finished lease with my shows my overly long shows, and then you can get a transcript and they could clip it at that. I don't know where that went, if that's still around or not. But I can see where a service like that makes it attractive. Just please respect with respect to source of truth if my feed comes along and and I have my transcript in there, you've got to respect it.

Kill it. Yeah. Kill that kill the

guilty thing? Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. It does. Kevin does. Does Buzzsprout have the Obamas yet have y'all had a shot at them? I mean, they seem to be

by the way, if I can just say no, I just want everyone to understand what kind of deal this is. This seems to be some kind of confusion. This is a library deal. Right? This is the old stuff. This is nothing new is now the Obamas are creating new stuff and it's going to be on a cast. This is all the old stuff. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yes, yes. And I think eat and they they still have their audible deal.

I have to correct James on that as he made a mention that this is it's not about money it's about they just want to have openness to get their ideas out there. I can tell you that Barack Obama throws $100,000 birthday parties. Bleep guys, this is definitely about money. Is this the show was a dog to man. It's just horrible. I'm sure they're shuffling around because nobody wants it. Well, I wouldn't

want to say that back to you. The Hollywood Reporter had had a pretty good, pretty good report on it. And they said Higher Ground production company founded by Brock, Michelle Obama has struck its latest audio deal with podcasting platform, a cast a cast will handle ad sales and distribution for hire grounds library of podcasts. So it's it's all the stuff that was already on Spotify, et cetera, et cetera.

Was it exclusive to Spotify before this deal?

Yeah, well, yes. Except Michelle Obama, they ran into such problems with filling the inventory, that they actually opened that up for a while that Michelle Obama podcast was certainly available everywhere. If it's not still is it was because it's boring. But yeah.

Well, yeah. So as we probably should look at it as a win for open podcasting, right, is that they tried to keep it in a closed ecosystem, and it wasn't able to accomplish what they wanted, or whatever that might be. And so now they're coming out into the, to the better waters that we promote all the time.

Podcast, if anything, it's a huge, well, it's great PR for a cast. I'm sure they can use it. And that's why they're spinning it kind of like yeah, oh, yeah. They're coming to us now. Okay. Yeah, the library has been dropped off at the front door in a in a cardboard box. But at the same time, it's a PR disaster for Spotify. I think. Yeah. I don't

think they lost really not a win for Spotify, because it shows that Spotify wasn't they had this great asset that they weren't able to capitalize on.

Yeah, I guess what do you need every part of the ecosystem to make money on advertising? As far as I'm concerned? I think you need more than just one player, which is what what their intent was all along. And that didn't work. And then everybody bailed with parachutes made of various degrees of metal. And we'll see how they do.

All right, Tom, I get we get talking about open subscriptions. Subscriptions. Yes. So Buzzsprout, bus routes, doing subscriptions. But man you've been talking about? Conversely, you know, converting what you've got to something open that is implementable as a spec across across anybody who wants to do it.

Yeah. Am I wrong? Or is this this is namespace talk, right?

Oh, yeah. Oops, namespace talk.

Excuse me here, but it's not hot namespace talk. Okay, there's four dudes here. If you're not going to get no hot namespace toggle single for me. Let's see it. Let's see how heated you can get it. And then we'll roll that in.

Given hands, and now

it's time for some hot namespace

have been turned on the Aural Exciter? I don't know much. Let's see. So the the spec that we sort of had in mind that we've been rolling around with for a while ended up being very similar to what y'all did. And so you know, the ideas being that you would have a, you'd have a single feed, and the feed would have the subscription content in it. So you don't have to have like two feeds like a private feed that nobody's, you know, like, you know, everything's in the feed. And

Sure, sure. The way the way that Buzzsprout subscriptions works, we actually put the premium content in the RSS feed with you know, kind of as like a little teaser of there's an there's an episode that you could get access to if you wanted to support the show and get access to it. Then you can hit that same RSS feed but pass in a token, or you could think of it as just it is a private RSS feed. But the URL is the same as the normal RSS, but it also includes a token to

So here was my experience. The first time I did this the first time I tried it with a with a with a Buzzsprout subscription feed. And the thing is, I was on cast ematic. And it was pod news, upon Us Weekly Review. So this was not it wasn't subscription, but they it wasn't like private, private content that you had to unlock. But it was subscription enabled. So what had happened was James had put the subscription page URL for the web, sort of web based subscription mechanism, he

the way the way that we did subscriptions, you can do premium content, or you don't have to do premium content. So if you don't do premium content, then the funding tag does exactly what we want to do, right? If you want to support the show, you can click on the link that's in your funding tag, pick your amount, and you're off to the races, if it's premium

private modified Spotify tag, how about

to be able to access to premium content for that RSS feed?

Yeah, that's a good point. So so if you have this, if you have content premium content, where you have to pay for it, to hit to listen to it, then it then that that link to buy it should be in some, like you said, it should be in this own tag, or somewhere else that makes more sense than just funding because fundings disconnected,

but the player needs to hear it needs to hear something back from the whoever is going to authorize charge the credit card, verify the payment, whatever. And so like cast ematic, for example, would need to hear back what is the private

idea of can we just have a general system like that that is, is an authorization system with a web hook for anything that we might need?

Yeah, I mean, I think so we're talking about, we're just talking about a generic callback system, and then letting people get creative about how they want to use it.

And it can be any payment system, any any type of that that makes a lot, which would also be great, just for general verification. This is my feed, right? Yep. Yep.

Host and say, and then basically provide the URL. So for example, let's say that it was a verification tag. So you put in the URL, in this case, it would be a Buzzsprout URL. So now when they click on that, or the player goes to that link, and pulls up the page to display to the user, the user would then login to their Buzzsprout account. And then it verifies that they're the owner and then calls the callback URL and passes in, yes, they've been authorized.

I think something like that is pretty interesting.

And then you could you could do that same thing for the premium content, where now it goes out to the the host, it goes to Buzzsprout, they log in, and then we send back the RSS feed the private RSS feed this unique to that user, so they can get access to the premium content.

Boot. Dave says you'll be right back, he had to reboot. But that's good, because that gives me complete control of the board. I think, the obviously you know that I'm I the idea of premium content. I just like I don't like it. But that's okay. Because I don't want to stand in the way of anything. That's why I love the concept of the web hook that can be used for because I would also I would love to have a way to just yeah, we got your back brother just support any podcast

I think it would, I think what we would be able to do is just define for each of the different scenarios, what

idea that I don't see any downside to it. I only see wins.

Yeah, well, Adam, what's your take on private rssb It's not like premium content, but like, whatever. Toyota wants to do a podcast for all their employees only. So they need some way to authorize

I mean, that's, I think that to me, is a is a, you know, that's a sale for you. Right, you know, you'll be selling to Toyota that capability if you can make it work in every podcast app. Fantastic. I completely

It seems like the on the private feed thing. There's our original discussion around open subscription was avoided in order to avoid private feeds. So that was like the original the original as as sort of conceptualized was the podcast app does a hence does some sort of payment handshake. It you know it kicks out you do the payment You set up the subscription. And then what gets handed back to the app is some

you know, you know, where this conversation always ends up Dave? DRM, that's where it always ends, watch. It always ends. DRM always does well, in

the past to store something, yeah,

but the way you're describing it is pretty much the way it works, the only thing that's happening is you're passing in the token. So what happens is when you make the request to Buzzsprout, for example, if we were implemented, the way I proposed, when you make the request to Buzzsprout, what it's sending back to you is essentially the token, right, because it's if that value were to get out to the public, well, then anybody could go ahead, and they could download anything

which I think, which I think is is just a good compromise, it makes a lot of sense to do it to do it that way. Because it's a it's a, it's not such a heavy lift for the app. Because you're just moving right, you're sort of moving things up the stack a little bit to where it's primarily a web handshake, and less of a sort of lower level infrastructure handshake where the app has to do a bunch of negotiation. The only I guess the only, the only thing is how, if if that's how

the web hook. So the what the web hook is the app telling the service, hey, after they've completed their payment, call this URL and pass in the tokenized URL. So that way, you can pass it back to cast ematic, or whatever the player is.

So but is there a way to do it? The I never really got a satisfactory answer to this. When I posted about it on the on the mastodon was, is there a way to hand hand that back from the web view where you don't have to have a second or a second request?

I don't believe so. Because that would be a big security risk. Because that would mean that the app is monitoring what you're doing on the website. That's not their website. So cast Matic is monitoring what you're doing on Buzzsprout. So I think that there's no way for the web view to pass that information back. That's where the web hook comes in. So web hook is a way for us to pass it back the same way it

So it's not like there's no there's no capacity for something like like a return value from a web view. Or an exit code.

Yeah, I don't believe so. But I'm not a mobile. I'm not a mobile guy.

Okay, because that's the only that's really the only part that gets tricky. I mean, like, if you can give, if you can give it back then that's like effortless care, but you don't even So just do it in?

Well, yeah, that's true. But if the web, the web hook is a mechanism, I think that anybody could take advantage of right? Like any of the players that are out there, they could they could make, or they could receive a HTTP request, as long as they have a server that they can receive it. So now they get that private feed, and they can just swap it out for the one, you know, that they were currently on before.

So when you're saying web hook, you're talking about the app side is receiving the hook.

So okay, so if cast ematic is the player, and somebody wants to authorize ownership, or they want to, you know, subscribe to premium content, then it goes to a Buzzsprout URL, but when they call Buzzsprout, they say, when you're done doing your thing, here's a URL or a web hook, I want you to call this URL when you're done and tell me what happened. So now Buzzsprout does its thing. It authenticates, or it does Apple Pay. And once it's done, it calls that web hook and

So that Yeah, cuz that's gonna be a problem for customers. Because they don't he didn't Franco has no server infrastructure at all. Period. Yeah. Yeah. So it's So

how old are you to receive? Uh,

huh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's, that's the issue. So for those, like for, it'll see, Nathan says apps can definitely inject their own JavaScript into web views. If that's the case, they, you would think they could get those things back. I mean, like, for, for many podcast apps, I mean, I'm going to say a lot of them, they would have the capability to receive the hook. But there's going to be some out there that

If they can inject their own JavaScript, then the web hook could be a URL, a local URL, you know what I mean to the JavaScript? Yeah. Okay. But that would be that would, that's the mechanism, we're talking about building. But what we would need is an app developer, to to kind of weigh in on that because I'm, I'm a web developer. And they'll have a different approach to it. Yeah, what that but that's what I that's what I just came up

Let's talk about the other areas before I fall asleep over this tantalizing

commodity. This was a hot namespace talk.

Not really. We got web hooks got JavaScript. So this kind of folds into because we've now discussed two things that were kind of with the, with this web hook, round robin infrastructure for t x t. Both things that are part of the pod Standards Project. Which I believe you guys are one of the driving forces behind it's a little unclear because I'm not quite sure. You know, why don't you tell us about that? Tell you about the pocket Standards Project. Not so much about this.

I have it I have a guy wanted to bring it to you live and except your gracious gift person I want to send to you in personal email.

Good good. Well send that to me while we're talking so I can put it into split

Okay, what do you want just like I set it up on Albie just want to get lb? Yes. Just

send me the Yeah, just send me the get lb user addresses worked perfectly. For it's perfect. So it was funny, because, you know, we talked about this on the last episode about how you know, we're kind of the fighters running around on the front lines. We've got the diplomats and the politician, but we want to help fund him. And then subsequently, it seems like one of the main you know first topics of the PSP Oh, dot nine is transcripts and everyone's yelling and screaming

Yeah. Yeah, let's try to answer some of that address some of that confusion. So I think the we launched the project, it takes, it took a lot to get to that point, a lot, a lot of work. And I think a lot of the people who did a lot of the heavy lifting on that needed a week to breathe. And so I think that's why it was a little quiet. There is there was a lot of communication happening on the back end. And we decided that that's, I mean, this is not how a successful project is

one step back one sec. Who who says to Pocket Cast, y'all want to be a part of it, you've got to implement your transcript, who is the who is the person that says that? That I presume that person is not designated. This is what I know this this, this is this is where things break. I mean, I'm an organizational guy out community guys. So I see these things like okay, I understand that, that that has to be said, but someone actually has to say it.

Right? Well, the people who are saying it right now, it's not just one person, it's a group of people. So it's a group of people that came together and said, Hey, here's dot nine, here's the certification requirements. Anybody who wants to be PSP certified has to meet these requirements. And it wasn't just Buzzsprout as Buzzsprout and transistor and red circle and blueberry and rss.com. It was us

Hopefully that badge begins to mean something for especially for people that care about open podcasting. And so then they'll ask the question, why don't you have that badge? Why aren't you doing it?

Right. So that that's my point is I see Pocket Casts coming soon. Yeah, yeah. Someone has to excuse me. You know, we're going to take you off, and we're going to take away your badge.

Your credentials. Yes. Right. Right. No, that was great, though, because Pocket Casts was super excited about it. But they said, You guys are launching before we're going to be ready. And so we said, well, we need a commitment. Can you what's the what's the commitment date that you feel comfortable with? And they said by the end of spring, and so we said, that's good enough. But we're going to if you don't have it by the end of spring, you're logos coming off the site? Am I right? No problem.

My recommendation would be just, you know, y'all gotta just recommendation you need to have someone who is responsible for doing that. And it can't just be kind of like, we're gonna someone's gonna say we're going to stand around in a circle and say, You're not doing it. You need to face and I hatchet

man. Yeah, you need to represent

Tom wants to be that guy.

You need to represent you need a representative. You really do. Yeah. And you know what? Kind of Todd actually be pretty good because Todd, as I know him, I've known him for a long time. does not give a crap, he will say, Hey, you guys are no good, you got to do it, and he'll hound him. But my recommendation is the only thing I'm missing is you need someone to actually be responsible for saying that. Otherwise, it's just going to linger. And I just hate that to

The approach makes the approach makes sense, I think because if you if you look at let's just say mobile apps, for instance, a mobile app developers are used to this sort of annual cadence anyway, I mean, iOS, the new version of iOS comes out each year. And new version of Android comes out each year. And whenever that happens, things old, older API's are deprecated. And newer API's come out. And so they they have to at least change things annually, on a rolling basis

agreed. You're absolutely right. So I mean, the reason I mentioned Todd, he was very involved in helping us get to the point that we are, and he's drafted up some membership requirements he was just talking about, I'm gonna show this week, and we need to figure out how we get those adopted and put into place so that we have that person, that person who's running around and telling everybody, Hey, here's the new

Yeah, I don't know. We don't have one. I don't we don't I don't know. I mean, what

I thought that was a benevolent dictator was

someone Someone Someone has to commit key? You know, that's, that's ultimately what it is

that benevolent dictator? Yeah, whoever, whoever can commit to, for example, for the PSP, what is going to be that that first spec that everyone agrees to meet? Somebody's got to make the call on what we're going to agree to?

Let me ask you a philosophical question. Because this is going to come up right now. So YouTube has come up with something they call podcast, which turns my stomach because it's not. However, is it okay for any hosting company who was on this list to integrate with, with YouTube without it actually going through their RSS feed, but just to pump it up into their infrastructure, therefore, literally ruining the thing that PSP stands for?

Is it okay for them to do that?

If you're on this list, it's about open podcasting. It's literally about these companies, Spotify, YouTube, and to a degree Apple, that are off doing this, I'm reading the document. But if everyone's gonna go ahead and say, Well, you know, but my people really want to be what's going to be on YouTube, you're kind of breaking the whole idea.

Your question is out of scope? Well,

I think I think you're doing what YouTube wants us to do, which is to conflate podcasting with what they're doing. And it's not. If somebody takes their content and puts it up on YouTube, I don't see that as part of their podcast. I see them as having a podcast, which is your RSS feed. And oh, by the way, they've posted their content on YouTube. But I don't see that as

a podcast. I'm talking about hosting companies integrating to make it to make one click to go from your hosting company into YouTube. Would you Would you agree with me that that is counter intuitive to the mission?

I don't think so. Unless they abandon the RSS feed unless they no longer distribute the content over an RSS feed, but making that same content available in other places? I don't think that that's violating this.

Do you think it's promoted?

Maybe they'll vote me out?

I'm just saying, Do you feel that that is not promoting a closed system that is not part of the RSS ecosystem, as described in the podcast Standards Project? I don't know. I don't know. I don't,

I saw it as a threat. I just don't see it that way. I don't see I don't see YouTube as a threat. I see. YouTube. Now YouTube could be a threat if they if content was only showing up there. But I don't see them as a threat. I don't think that who

is the threat? Who is the threat to the open podcast, but could name them who was a threat to the open podcast ecosystem?

Because let me take any podcasts that it doesn't have an RSS feed. So a company that launches tomorrow and they have their own audio content, but the only way to listen to it is through their app. Well, that's not part of

it's not exactly what YouTube is doing. They're saying upload your podcast to us. And that

way you YouTube will never be a member of PSP. I like they'll never they'll never want this. But for people to integrate with them. I don't know. Okay,

well, me I guess your I guess your The poster child example would be Spotify, Spotify for podcasters, formerly known as anchor, which they disable RSS feeds by default. That would be an example of a definitely something is it's hostile to open podcast leave, you know, it's not impossible, but it is at least open podcasting hostile.

Yeah. But that's kind of like what Kevin was talking about where we're trying to like, let's figure out what are the requirements? Well, can we agree to, because if we set the bar too high, and then there's only one or two members, well, then we're really not a strong group to go advocate. So we're trying to raise the bar. But we have to do that, in a way by first getting some type of ground level that we can all start with.

I think it makes sense. I mean,

but it's taken a while. I mean, for sure. You guys were there. When we when we first brought up, you know, the idea of doing some some type of group like this. And I know others have been critical about how long it took for for us to be able to communicate anything, but we had to get critical mass like we had to get enough people that could get on board with it before. Otherwise, it would just die on the vine.

The one one thing I know that has been the this has been a constant Thorn is D AI and how it impacts all yes, all of this other stuff. Like, is there been any, like flexibility on that? Or is everybody just like no, or the RDI thing is just what it is. And we're not going to change it. We're not going to modify, image modify anything about the way it works?

Yeah, more of that. It's been. Yeah, whenever we run into an element that breaks the AI, it's kind of like everything grinds to a halt. Yeah. And so the best way to get something out there was just to stay away from those landmines. At first, I was gonna ask him at some point,

I had this experience. I was listening new media show yesterday. And I had in so it's got a pre roll. In this pre roll. Like I thought that I thought that I had accidentally missed my mess. My APA because I heard this water trickling, like he's just water running. And like, what if I switched to Spotify on accident? What did I do? So I flipped back in his cast? ematic and he's playing. And I'm like, okay, and then and then somebody's voice comes on. Okay, so it's a pre

It's one thing when you open up the Maps app or something that is used, like it's asking permission to use your location. Yes, you understand, right? Like I'm giving that permission to use my locations. Another thing when podcast apps when they might have it buried in their terms of service or privacy policy somewhere that they'll use your location based on your IP, but you're not reading that stuff. I never gave cast thematic permission, and it's not even

Exactly. Yes. I

never gave it permission to do that. So that feels like a violation. Just

a question on on the Dai a minute. Has everyone figured out it? Will everybody be supporting transcripts re syncing after an ad insertion, which screws everything up?

Yeah. See, that's that's where it gets very difficult. Because are we going to say that the PSP like Dai we think it's creepy. We don't do it. Do we make that a requirement to be part of the advocacy for open podcasting because that will exclude

that's not what I'm That's what I'm asking. I'm asking is, can if If you okay, maybe it is what I'm asking you directly.

It's what you're asking. Yeah. Okay, if you do dai it's very difficult. Like, I understand that I pushed hard. I wanted chapters to be included in the spec. Um,

Robert just drank, let's just stick with transcripts, transcripts get thrown off too.

Yeah, transcripts in chapters both require shifting based on dynamic content, which is what Buzzsprout does. Whenever we insert dynamic content, we shift the transcripts. Right, and we shift but it's easier for us because ours are more baked in we're not, you know, looking at you're in Birmingham, Alabama and inserting 45. Second ad. So I think that's that's gonna be a point of contention is, are we going to be able to get those things that require shifting

I think it's, it's, this is not hard. Like, like, yeah, it is, I think what happened? It's not because the technology to do it can't be thought of, it's because there are third party services out there that that hosting companies have integrated with that do this type of thing. And

So this is where I think the podcasting 2.0

No. And that's really, I really, you got to explain that to me again, what do we have to do?

What you're doing is great, what you're doing is innovating and coming up with those things so that as they get more adoption, we can point to them and say, Look, that's what, that's what you've got to do write like, that's what people want. And we can make that part of our standard. But we've got to get enough people on our standard have the appetite or the willpower to implement it.

I think the market takes care of that for yourself. I mean, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. But if if I have transcripts, and my my audience enjoys my transcripts, and the hosting company, I'm using screws them up with Dai, then I'll probably find a better dia de ai provider. And I think the the market for solves that. I don't think that we need to tell anybody.

Yeah, well, but what podcasting 2.0 did was provide the way for that to happen. Right? If you guys didn't do the transcript tag, if you didn't advocate for that and get some adoption, the market wouldn't even know. Right, you know,

then it's, then whoever doesn't do that, eventually people will say I don't like it, and they'll leave and they'll go somewhere else. Right? Because transcript Oh, I mean, that's I thought transcript was solved. I mean, we're still working on it. But once we get down to the right resolution, and everything, I hope everyone implemented and everyone tries to make it as simple as synchronized as possible with with the actual audio.

We have to see the syncing with the audio is just is because it's like we're having debates about about word level synchronization or sentence level synchronization when one ad slot comes by and the whole thing is way off is 10 seconds. 30 seconds off anyway. And that's just it. The the the, I see it as a as a disregard.

But yeah, if you're a hosting provider, and you provide transcripts, and you provide ad insertions you need to solve that as I don't

think they do. Yeah, I think if you're doing if you're doing you're not doing transcripts,

no, but you do both. You just said you did.

Right, we do. Yeah, but I'm saying that the people that we're talking about we're not calling out anybody by name, but the people that we're talking about that's what they're not providing transcripts. Right so I don't think that's the problem is that they're not shifted correctly. I think it's just they're not they're just not providing transcripts.

Okay. All right. Well, let's they start to provide transcripts then they need to do that properly. Otherwise people's age not good.

Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's, that's the that's the big the big pushback that happens with me, Mark Joe said it on on, on that podcast that time he's like, Well, if you get chapters and transcripts, they're great. But then as soon as you get to an ad slot, it screws them all up. Well, if that's the perception out there, that's really sloppy. That's that's sloppy. You know if that's the perception that that other app developers,

and that's my point. So if you're providing transcripts, and you don't have your your da, I rejigger the timing, you can't have a logo. All right. Yes. That's the only shame we can use no logo for you. Exactly. Can I just move the conversation to a little thing from the front lines? To noster? Do I hear and deliver? Did everyone go? Oh,

yeah, did I mean I'll do it. Yeah.

I'm just gonna keep telling you that there's something there. And there's something going on with this. And they're working on fig. Gigi posted a very thoughtful article about how noster zaps could be split into and to respect splits, in podcast. So in effect and make a noster. You could have an austere app or payment system or mechanism that would respect the splits in the value block. They call it prism or

Well, what? I don't know about this? No, I guess show good show goods.

Yes. So that you so I could as part of my Nasir identity, I could connect anything to that I can connect an Albea wallet, I can Can I should be able to connect my podcast goods to it. These are the it would be the the ownership of the source of truth, I think is what the concept is. That makes sense.

Yeah, that it's not anti Nasr. It's just that I just I'm having a really hard time getting it's like getting excited about it. Because it's the model. The model is basically them forgive me, I know that's not 100% accurate. But loosely, it's it's Tor is the Tor network. I mean, you have nostre has relays Tor has exit exit nodes. And to me if everything ultimately has to go through these relays or these exit nodes, I don't see where at all, ultimately you get the

off. That's not at all what I'm excited about. Okay, the experience I have, I don't care how it works. I mean, I understand a lot of it, I don't understand enough of it. By the way, tours satisfies me very well every single day, I have multiple nodes here at home running on it, I'm very happy, I get payments in and out through the Tor network. So and I'm not excited about censorship resistant, any more than I am about Bitcoin being censorship resistant. What I find exciting

Now I get you know, I get you it pushes it pushes identity down the chain from the server level to the client

let correct and what I'm what I'm seeing is interesting things that you can do with that with with that specific thing. I don't care if it if it ran over to tin cans and a string. I like that part of the something about it that I like I'm just going to keep identifying it. So when someone says hey, if you have a podcast good we can connect that to it. I can see kind of concept Surely, what can be done with that? Just feels like this, you know, this public private key

Well, it feels, I don't know, I think the cryptographically secure identity is oh, I'm trying to figure out the right way to express this. Mine's my, my first idea was to say that is overrated. I'm not sure that's accurate, that I'm not sure that's an accurate representation of what my thoughts are, though. Here, here's a, I run into this from time to time. Where, and, and seeing as how everything around noster very much emphasizes the censorship resistance angle.

Now, that's just that's just the early adopters who just were talking about that. And those guys, most of them are talking out of their ass. They're extremely excited people. And they think, oh, yeah, I mean, believe me, every email should be on noster I got it. Okay. But that's not going to happen. Right? I understand that, that, but I'm mindful my own book, I've been around, I've picked things up unusually, pretty early. I'm just feeling something here. I'm gonna keep

No, I don't really ultimately have no I have no problem with the nostril people doing, do it. I just got I got no problem with it. I guess. I mean, my my issues with the reason I I'm trying to explain why I can't, while I'm not more excited about it. That's really what it is. This is not Anton Nasir, this is just really like, why is it not just really lighten me up. And it's, I mean, like concrete, concrete, cryptographically, secure identity only, it only matters,

You know, obviously, the simple answer is I have an identity for this, I have an identity for that. And I do I you know, I'm going to have an identity for Pornhub. At this now I'm not going to use the same keys that I'm using for other things. When it comes to specifically the mastodon

you've, you've made sense to me since the beginning, I fully understand why the why you're high on it. And the I really did.

I wouldn't say I'm high on it.

You're pretty excited about I am I have

I do have excitement about it. And I see that when I see other people running around and excited about things. I want to jump in the middle go this is exciting. What do we do? What do we do? And then I see opportunities, and I get a strong pushback from the podcasting 2.0 crowd. Well, that's my feeling my feeling.

Yeah, it's not a strong it's not eight. I wouldn't classify my me as a push back. It's more of like I said, there's there's a whole there's a whole discussion here around like booster grants, for instance. I'm really glad that booster grams don't have identity tied to them. I don't like it. I don't know I

don't have it. But I don't I'm not saying I want booster grams with identity. I'm not saying that.

I didn't think you were I didn't think you were I'm saying what I'm saying is like there is value, the not the nostril ethic, the nostril excuse me, the nostril ethos is identity, identity identity. It's just it's that is the that is the substrate that noster lives and breathes on. And is cryptographically secure identity that is owned by you. When I guess what I'm what I'm saying is outside of a particularly outside of a trusted context. I don't see the

okay, but I'm sorry, I shouldn't have conflated those two, because I have I don't give a shit about fucking identity. I care about this thing that I can use that I can do stuff with. You see that and that's whatever ethos is noster is not my ethos. I'm seeing a cool way to connect things with something that I actually control instead of having to have someone else maintain control over it. That's the same as booster grams. I can send a booster gram to someone no one can stop me. I love that.

because you tied an identity to it. Mike Boone stopped

an identity. What difference does it make? It could be it could be a new identity every single time it could make a new one every time. That's my opinion.

In this day, I'm glad you said I'm glad you brought that up because that's exactly what happened with Bitcoin Core. In the beginning in the early early early days of Bitcoin everybody tended to reuse the same wallet ID because it was sort of it was sort of like an identity. The this this public key and rapidly people got away from that because they wanted the privacy now you never do you always generate a new wallet, wallet ID with every transaction. And so like the the

I think that's where you are. I don't think that this that there's an ethos at all. But I think that there's a lot of people who say things and there's there's impressions. I don't think I have any Nasr ethos, I think I'm coming in, and I see that I can do stuff with it, but I can't do with anything else.

But you don't run the network, you don't have a nostre ethos, but you're not, but you're not you're not building what they're building, they're building it and they do have an ethos, that's

that I challenge you on that. I don't think there's one there. There. I think there's lots of people doing lots of different things. There's, it's, there's, you know, there's, there's item type one, and that's the social network, you know, there, there can be so many different things with this. That's kind of the point. Okay, so leave that where

You see, I mean, you're going this is you're tying this back to I mean, this is the fountain comments. It's that that style of thing is that you're telling him that just

Fountain has made comments, I just be I just want to show a leaderboard of my booster grams, could be anything, I want to do more with booster grams. And I

can already do that, right? You can already do the histogram leaderboard and stuff,

debit, I don't program stuff. I'm looking for app developers who want to step outside of the box and do other things and come up with other things that we can do. So if we have a lit tag, maybe an app could have a, you know, a poll, a live poll or a you know, vote for this or vote for that these types of things are unique to what we're doing outside of every other big company, big tech podcast experience. So I'm identifying that as something that we that is clearly working

Double I mean, essentially saying double down on the things that are unique. Yeah, definitely emphasize emphasize the made like, you know, build on top of those things. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, like, I mean, I had that on my notes is that is cute, like polls. I mean, I don't know what you think about this, Tom. I mean, is polls something. I've been kicking around for a while.

I'm not sure. I think

does have to be a namespace thing.

I think it would have to be defined. It may make sense to have it for because originally we said okay, and this is true. You could do it in chapters. I mean, you could do it would just kick it out to a web view, but that seems a little chancy,

but I'm done talking. I'm talking pure polling. I'm not I'm talking about polling through boosts. Okay, so just so you know, I'm not talking about a polling system that I mean, a podcast hosts should even have to deal with this. I don't think I mean, I, I'm talking about things that maybe I'm wrong about that.

If you define if you define like a pole, you You know, you if we have some form that what this is what a poll is, and you can put the questions and that kind of thing like vote like, Yeah, I'm

not looking for that. I mean, I'm, I'm looking for something as simple as I don't know. I'm not creative enough. And I certainly want to, I'd like to see stuff break and mess around before we try and put anything into a namespace. But it just seems like that's, that's where things go to be argued about for a long time. And, and I get very, very bored.

Or they come here to this show, they

go back to web hooks.

I don't I don't mean it that way. It's like, okay, I got I got the transcripts working. And when I'm told to do it a different way. And like I what do I get excited by get excited by seeing Martin's version of transcripts? That think that and that's, he's taking what is already available, what will be available, I'm excited about that part. And how and how that works under the hood is is a different part. I'm just saying, I feel that there's so much more

Kathrada tag you're talking about? Has Has Adam looked at the pod roll?

Yes, of course.

What do you think about that?

I hate the name. But I understand the, to me, its recommendations. You know, we've had this idea for a long time. App developers are busy. I don't know. I mean, if it shows up, I'll use it. You know, I'm, I'm probably more interested right now in the remote item where, you know, I can finally have a music on my show. And then I'll be able to send splits to the owner and respect the splits of that owners work in the context of my show. That will be more. That's an example of something

Kevin, you I think, I think you brought up, you did the pod roll. Right? You propose to what was your? What was your vision for that when you when you proposed it?

The I hate algorithms. So yes, screw the algorithms screw. I don't like the idea of a podcast app listing my podcast when someone's listening the the app, trying to make a recommendation of what the person should listen to you next, like I'm the show creator, the people who are listening, like hearing what I'm talking about what they should

was not the idea of the pod roll in the first place.

Yeah, that's the idea. It's just stupid, simple. And I think it would be great. Like and we could put pressure on app developers like whatever Pocket Casts overcast Apple What Why are you why are you who you when someone's listening to my content, to push them in the direction of your subscription show or something that you're, you know, you're making 30% Like,

wow, you want to put pressure on people that's fuck that noise. If that is

in my RSS feed, and then your list someone is listening to my show, also show the rest of my stuff, which is the other shows I think you should listen to. And then I think if you if you want to go ahead and do your algorithm stuff, knock yourself out.

I think it makes sense because you have like the the only thing you're left with is is I was listening to you know, pod news weekly with talking about a cast and recommendations and the various ways that it's not just them that lots of people do this where they do the keyword targeting and that kind of thing. When you boil it down to categories and keywords. It just almost never works. Them Talking about recommendation now for advertising. That's I don't

being nostalgic. Also, like when in the 90s, I would go to blog sites all the time, learn about my newsreader. And how did I find the next blog that I wanted to read? Usually, from a recommendation of a blog I was already reading. And there were no algorithms pushing me in certain directions. And I don't necessarily think algorithms are making the world better, probably making it worse. But

you follow the blog, carnival didn't you can remember a lot of carnivals.

But I'd always go from one to the next I'd be like, Oh, I love the way that this person writes. And I love what they write about, what are they reading, and that would always be in their blog role. I was like, that's just so simple and beautiful. And that's what I want to bring back. I like it. And so it's just simple. And it's, and I felt like I just put it out there and it was done. And then, you know, everyone

And I like, I like the use of the of the podcast quid because it gets more people using that as a unique identifier for shows.

Yeah, agreed. Rather than RSS feeds.

Where are we on the GUID is that baked in? Are people doing it is that? I love that idea. I think it's got

broad adoption. Yes, guys. Yeah, pretty broad adoption. At this point, I think I got halfway finished with a good resolver. in it. I mean, it's functional, I just have to go back and do do the deduplication work. And then it'll be ready. If people can use it. I mean, it should just be like DNS DNS for goods.

I love that. That. That is, there's a lot of things that can be done with that. And then I think it also makes a lot of other things, even stuff like blog rolls or pod rolls easier. Want to have, I think we have the,

I have the resolver done that by the end of the month.

But let me just throw out something like as a as a principle for when we're talking about building stuff when primarily maybe in the namespace, but but other places as well. I feel like when we're talking about, I mean, some of these concepts can certainly get complicated. And sometimes it can't be avoided, I feel like it would be healthy for like the specifically the namespace it when complication arises to try like as a guiding principle to try to figure out how we can

I'm in total agreement. And I think here's how it always works. And here's how you can see when things work, or they don't. When people are creating content, no matter what it is, if it's a person tag, that's content. So obviously you have to be enabled. That's the chicken in the egg. Nothing really moved in the podcast in 2.0 project until

Yeah, that's where the egg is correct. Yeah. Yeah. The chicken.

And it's also where the where the education comes from, you know, I will say that that's 60% of what hosting companies do is educate their customers.

What I what I want to do, what I want to do is dive in headlong to the TXT record discussion, but I think we need to thank some people.

We definitely do. Wow, man. I thought we already solved that with with the token.

No, we do but I want to talk. I wanted to go head on not not not not fixing it. In I wanted to go into a polemic and apologetic for the TXT record because it's getting some hate. So good. Anyway, I'll save that for next week.

Let me thank a couple of people who have come in live and we appreciate that and a value for value model. Of course, Dred Scott has been all over the place. 12121 Thank you boosting the pole. He says, Oh, the O L E is a different kind of pole. I got it. Steven B with a Sacher Richards 11,111. Finally right realizing this episode, and I'm glad to announce music side project now has the ability to create custom playlists as as any good music app should. Yeah, this is this has really taken

We will we started with namespace talk which he went nuts. A lot. He lost it. What do you mean because that's what he loves. He loves namespace.

Stop my boost. He says no, there's no stop on the boost. Exactly. Brian of London. 1948 haven't been listening, but I'm very grateful that pod thing was put in the standard excellent stuff. And there you go, guys. Then we move to another Brian have lunch. Ah, yes. This is the 31,948 Satoshis boosting live from a restaurant in Cyprus. Not listening, but I'm sure you just had something excellent. Well, of course we did. I did. Eric d p 33,333. Another Dred Scott except this one is 121,212.

Sad Carla 20 is Blaze on him. Paula

that's when he was boosting for the live boost

to rip it

up man is insane. I'm telling you. He's insane. Our Davis 87 2000 pre boosting go podcasting. You got it man. Thank you chat. F 3333 Great pre show content, Alwyn contracts that would be from contracts, I guess. 12,001 2345 12,345 He says episode split management. Come into contracts very soon. Thanks, Dave. Yes. On onboarding through contracts love that great idea. Very welcome.

We gave him we gave him a built in a Partner API over the last few weeks. Fantastic

guy I love now being able to say hey, you want to onboard the podcast and 2.0 here's all these hosts. Here's how you guys respond to that to bus browsers. You know, here's these different different places this app you know this service I love that tone record one on one on one happy to report first music collaboration happened organically on wave lake with another artist in East Africa, finding a track I shared on noster Oh, he added vocals posted a new version the next

I do we don't have any Pay Pal. We fully

fully we've transitioned. We're trans.

We have but we do have booths. We have many booths. We have 2112 Rush booths from Leslie yami says running with scissors on needles and pins at Caroline's monkey by Depeche Mode. Martin Linda's go,

why'd you want that one? We did that one didn't he? Last week? He ordered again. Okay. We only play at once Martin.

The trickler that would be the sweetest trickler 500 says he's below the limit but I'm gonna give him a one anyway because pretty much go podcasting.

You got a man

6969 from Hey, citizen. He says boost boost. Chip send us 22 to 23 through pod versus boost it to the top.

This these were these are when we were singing last week. I'm telling you this. I think we did these on the premium did we? I think so. Yeah, I think we did these.

Oh, you know what got Okay. All right. Yeah, you're right. This got me because I started. We went we did a Late Show. Yep.

That's what it is. Yes. The timing was off. Of course.

Yeah. Okay. Let me just go through here. That's right. 859. Yeah, these are like that night. Okay, I got you. Okay, April 1. Here we go. Auburn citadel. 100,000 SATs.

Bala. Sakala. 20. Is blades on am Paula.

Yeah, your thanks for reminding me. He says pura vida. So whatever that means. That's another.

That's, that is actually the icky stuff of noster

that this is the nostril ethos.

Yeah, okay, Dave. It's the North. Yes, that's it, where people say, Have a nice day and good night. Yeah, I know the bunch of dicks over there. Can't believe

that always just a side note, that always tells you that that that you're in the honeymoon phase of any technology when you get them like Hey, good morning.

Yeah, no. Yeah, that that that is the noster social media network ethos, right. Yes, I agree. I agree.

Cast VLAN 3690 says love this show. We love you cast, we're sure do like a small satchel of Richard 1111 from Joel Wu. Do fountain no note. CO McCormack. 3333 says, Dave, you need to start doing the Wim Hof Method to stop getting sick. Yes, we've been

just drink your beef shakes now that's

nailed one row for the show. Hey, hate to hear it. I promise get healthy from breathing the podcast need you go podcasting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25,001 SAS from Clarkie and my buddy says Beep boop

boop All right,

boost. Just listening since 300. SAS is returning to the SAS on earned while listening on fountain. I'm a musician in a small town. Just getting started and I'm going to be launching my first albums in podcasting. 2.0 By the end of the year, wish me luck.

Yeah, and by the way, it's not just fountain it works on many other apps go to podcast apps.com And make sure you promote all of them because people will use them.

It is properly decentralized. Jean bien 4000 says Thank you Gina. He says Adam talking about DJs today makes me think about Tom Petty's the last SJ

shot J

gene been again 1337 leet boosts he says maybe the music part of PSP can be a cig SRG aka special interest group. You have lobbyists now okay. That's how things like this are done in the Linux ecosystem

right Usenet group use

you're gonna be lobbied the Kevin I mean, do people are gonna be you're gonna be having to pressured with bribes and such do multiple things. You willing, you're willing to go up against that and try to stay true to

my agreement in New York have

been again 1330 says maybe this is a duplicate. I hope that whatever ends up being used for chat is at a minimum bridgeable to matrix like IRC is I'd like to avoid having yet another client. Fair enough.

Have you? Well, that is something worth talking about next week. Yes.

Bad career advice, Chad. Exhibit 2222 is a serious suggestion might I recommend new media stat New Media Standards Project? This is a named Jay. He can sit it can solve both podcasting and music. Now we were

talking about that we needed to add music on 2.0 value for value.

That's right. Bad advice. suggestion. Also could be the eventual defining body for when someone creates a V for V version of only fans, new media all types. Well, that's a completely separate

ROI as promised that for three years, never gonna do it. And never he's in charge of that subcommittee of the border. Has anyone did chyron pickup the Cossack podcaster. Lady? He said he's going to

Yeah, yes, she's. He's on boarded her. She's on the ship. Both her shows are V for V.

Oh, okay. Well, good. Then we can have her on the show.

Notes. I guess it could be interesting. Sir Doug 10,000 sets he says it's been a while. Okay, thanks. Sorry, Doug. Long time no, see. Boris kudelski 10,000 SATs he says what do you think about podcast Anders project? You know what, we love it worse.

We have the two talked about it in great detail

to ambassadors right here. Karen Speak of the devil for the mere mortals podcast 4119 through pod verse, he says draining this random wallet. Thanks for both of your help this week. chyron

by the way, did you hear his episode with Sam Sethi CEO of pod fans? It is next on my list. qua Sam Sethi is an interesting dude. I just thought yeah, it's just some random Indian British guy. Yeah. Spoilers don't get me very very, very interesting guy. Yeah, but you can't judge a book by its cover or by his voice I'm saying this is a good thing as interesting you'll love it. You'll is I was blown away by it and you know Kyron car noises research.

God he's a good me. He is a deep interviewer. He goes all the way to the bottom. Yeah. 6969 from a citizen. He says warriors armed with scissors and gaffer tape.

That's us. That's right man.

Thank you. Josh pro 1000 says he says Pocket Casts beats fountain like a $2 mule whoo Goodness gracious

talk right there.

Josh would you drink this morning so I'm gonna

secure going back here Aveda.

Figured my meager earn set should go to the best calls go podcasting. Yeah, man. Yes, fountain. Hey, gosh, Borlaug. 50,000 SATs through pod verse he says letting you know this project means a lot to us and wanted to

say thank you. Oh, you're welcome.

Thank you from Borla Thank you, Lyceum 22 to 22 through fountain he says you have the rabbits what you have the rabbits hairs in the row. The podcasting 2.0 initiative is the rebirth of the internet radio on demand. Leo Laporte suggestion for a new word for podcast is getting more and more appropriate You are the light was lit live Adam tag cross apps cross cross comments threads value for value music etc. Go podcasting

shows Martin Linda's code go yeah, he's up there in Nigeria. Me in Sweden. Yeah, like in Spotify his backyard light him up man.

Who is 25,000 says through fountain he says thank you day for generating a pod think token. This will help RSS blue reach its ESG commitment.

That's right. Yeah, you should take you should get carbon credits for that.

Yes. Yeah, we should both get he should and should. Yeah, because Exactly. There was this was that type of week where there's a whole lot of like, private people asking me for things and doing stuff. So

no one ever asked me for anything. Let me know if you want to. I can pass it along if you'd like no, I mean I'm the I'm the frontline man. I'm the triage. I'm up there with people saying, hey, my episodes are out of order. Fiction like Jimmy Kimmel with the name of the show is

DM me on Mastodon is a way to loophole and get around behind your firewall

really well. You should block them for that. That's not cool, though. You've got to go through info at podcast index.org and I will sign my initials to your email and I will help you.

That's right. Okay, delimiter comes through blogger 3015 says, darling Dave and amigo Adam, did you know that the word robot originates from Slavic language? No did not. Then you simply must brush up on vital knowledge pertinent to preventing a pernicious future for us all. Subscribe to the AI dog cooking podcast show. It is a superb resource to assist in that endeavor. The single greatest feat of the human race can look to achieve is to shake loose the shackles of servitude. Yo

CSB and gruff Goethe. Wow we got some they're very, very creative comics or Blogger very, very creative every single day. I appreciate that. Yes, thank you all for your booster grams and for your boost and for your streaming saps and monthly these are Fiat fun coupons mainly.

Yes. Congratulations to go off on the new human resource by the way. Oh, yes. Indeed. Monthly Scott Jalbert. $12. Chad, Pharaoh $20.22. Thank you, Chad. Mark, gram $1. Joseph maraca $5, Jeremy new $5 Cameron, Rose $25 and new media. That's Martin Linda scope. $1.

Thank you all very much. And just so you know. And when you hear people throwing around big numbers and stats and everything, it doesn't matter to us, as long as you're sending back value data for something that you received and whatever you find valuable, we can't determine that. So for one, it's it's $1. For one, it's $5. For one, it's 1111 SATs for one. It's 500 SATs for another it's 50,000 SATs. We appreciate it all it's how it's supposed to work. And you have been keeping

To underscore what you said, I've spun up a new server today, a $5 server on Linode to host the index for the reverse lookup from enclosures to feed IDs. And it was $5 server. So what

will that do the reverse lookup to whatever you just said.

You, it will allow people to put in to the API a enclosure URL, and it will spit out what feed it belongs to. Cool. Cool. Yeah, because evidently, it's a bigger thing than I realized that people sometimes know the enclosure URL, like Spurlock and op three. They know the enclosure URL, but they don't know where it's coming on podcast it belongs to

it's a Spurlock special, special request basically.

It actually wasn't him. It was it was it was prompted by Dan Benjamin, he because he was he's building pieces over that needed the same thing. So and then Spurlock's like, hey, I need that too.

I was wondering, you know, because I put no agenda into the Opie three system. I have to be honest, I never looked at the stats, but I know what kind of what they are. Should I just as a as a lark? Should I put it into one of those other leaderboard things with people? Because I hear these numbers like, oh, this, this podcast had, you know, had 50 500,000 downloads and like, Dude, I do that in a week or two, maybe I don't know. Maybe we should just go mess up all

Hey, I like it. That's good. Do

you want to still do texts were to inform but if you want to dive in, I'm cool with it. Limited it, Dave.

Okay, I was going to ask you this first one that was first question on the list was have you implemented it yet? Is it right? I mean, it's out the door is baked? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So the way that we're doing it is we're using it to verify ownership. But I think that's just one use case for Right. Like there can be more, if there's ever a need to put something in your RSS feed, like the DNS, I mean, what it's inspired by DNS txt,

when. So being on the front lines of info dot podcast index.org when someone shows up and says, I want I want I want and they have a Buzzsprout feed. So now i What do I tell them to verify? Because not not that I don't trust them, but now I just want to mess with them. So what do I tell them? What do they have to do when I say well, you got to verify your feed. How do I do that?

You can give them a code word or a number I

can just I can just give them anytime I say put this in here. And what is it called? You don't call it a TX t do you? What do you call it on the verification? What do you call it in your UI?

It says email address or token, Ah, okay. It would take anything. So you cannot

address or Okay, so you can when you so in Buzzsprout UI, if you go in the in the email address or token field, if I plug in the email address, it goes into the TXT record.

Yeah, it's in the, under the RSS feel like in the, when you go to look at your, your RSS feed, there's a thing down at the bottom that allows you to verify ownership. And it says put in an email address or a token.

If you put an email address it, I don't know if we put it actually in the textfield. So yeah, we're just trying to be a little clever. So if we recognize an email address, we'll actually add it as a iTunes owner. Drop it in there, because that's what

are you gonna keep doing that even after Apple deprecates that tag?

Well as Google, here's the here's the weird thing. Yeah, it's Apple's tag that they deprecated but people still use it.

So Okay. Um, yeah, I'm a little confused. So if I give someone cuz of course, I want to give someone a token, like a really weird number. 808 You have put that in? Five. that'll, that'll show up where? In their feed?

In the podcast, text tag. Okay, so we'll show up there. Oh, perfect.

Okay, I can't wait to do that. I'm excited. I'm excited to send people back.

Everyone has the same verification token when you go through them.

No, I'm gonna give you a nostril. I'm gonna give you a nostril public key. I copy this.

Oh, no.

That sounds like the ethos.

Because ever, because Sam was just, Sam was just I read about the TX T tag in the deprecation of email. So just I just wanted to run over real quick, since we're doing this. The thing is Apple is Apple is deprecating that, and they are still, when they deprecate something. It's, it's a big deal. I mean, as much as we as much as none of us like it, it is a big deal. And it's gonna have wide ranging effects.

So now, but it's not actually in the show notes in a separate field.

Yes, that's right. That's right. So now it's hidden. It doesn't ugly up your show notes was just some random string of

all right. But But I just heard you say is, here's it's non negotiable, you put it in your show notes. But we'd like it to be in a TXT field.

Well, no, it's non negotiable. I think that they want to put that token into the RSS feed, where it goes is negotiable. Even in their instructions, when they tell a podcaster to put it in there. They tell him like multiple places they can put it, I really think they just look anywhere in the RSS feed to see if that

token exists, we should probably get a confirmation on that.

Well, what I meant by none, the part that I meant that was non negotiable. Is is that they were not open to doing this any other way. And they weren't going to say oh, we'll do Oh off or we'll do something that they're like, no. Okay, well, I'm

just saying because, you know, we know Apple and then but no, no, we're looking in the shownotes. Now, we're not gonna look at the gxg field. I'm just, you know, I would hate I would hate

it. I think that's fine. I think they just do it. Honestly, I think they just do it string search in the whole entire I

think yeah, I think that's

sounds right. But I mean,

but but to to ease Sam and everybody else, I mean, this can be a very simple process. And like it doesn't for this doesn't for preclude other ways of doing it. Like we just talked about oak inscriptions. And that can be other other ways can arise for doing feed verification, that's fine. And I've got it, I've got an idea as well that I'm going to implement after the good resolver thing is done. But the for us web hooks, web hooks.

web hooks, I'm giving you the web hook here. All right.

But you know it, other things can arise but I mean, this, this really was almost like a, I don't know, like a self defense move. To have something ready for that would actually would encompass what Apple said that's what they're

doing. So I would say if I feel Sam's pain because you know, he's trying to onboard people into into his into pod

the future I think there's a pain we're going through a pain process right now but I foresee a future after this transition is finished to where it will actually be much easier than email is now that the future is a bit

of course email sucks so bad with with with with spam, etc. I'm completely with you. I'm just saying, saying to our our ambassadors here that I would say Man, if you can drive that that's going to help a lot of it helped here forward moving, you know, new new stuff come online where people have to verify that way. Or, you know, they could just verify with the noster ID I would just say,

well, the chat is just boosted 808. Sasson said he just he said I verified my feed

your verified, verified. Kevin and Tom, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for all that you do. As always, thank you for supporting us specifically podcasting 2.0 so graciously as you always do with your monthlies, but also with with your with your people, your team working on stuff, even especially the support team who have to deal with all the crazy crap we come up with and then you guys have to train your your users we really appreciate it. You guys are true brothers in

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