Episode 121: Lawful but Awful

podcasting 2.0 February 10 2023 Episode 121 lawful but awful Hello, everybody once again it's a Friday time for the board meeting the official one the only board meetings of podcasting. 2.0 everything happening in podcasting, we are the first line of defense against big tech capture. We are, we are slaying it. You can find everything at podcasts index.org Of course, we got the podcast namespace where all the innovation is documented and everything happening in podcast

index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the chilly heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama. He's the big A and API say hello to my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, it's Mr. Dave Jones. Did you call me the big day in API? Okay. Yeah, not isn't. No, it's meant to be. Come on, man. I'm just doing this over my head. Yeah, I just, I just throw it out there. You know, whatever comes to mind, I got to do something every single week. So I'm drinking

the beef milk. And halfway through the beef milkshakes. I mean, big A's. Big is coming. Brother, how are you feeling? By the way? Because I know you were still a little bit under the weather. Oh, yeah. This has been a roller coaster I went, I was, you know, went down, get get the antibiotics and those in the steroid shot. Came back up was like 100 was like 99%. Then got them when Rob back down again. Round two. I was so my thought was okay. I've didn't clear the first thing, whatever this was,

and I've and it's come back. But now I'm thinking because my thinking that the sequence of events was that I got sick, Clear that out. And then just the universe hates me. So I just had a different I guess, I think I got two different things back to back. Oh, goodness. I mean, this is Tina had this thing that you have it was and she was, I'd say it took a good two weeks. And she and she still? Well, she basically either cracked or bruised her ribs severely. So she still has Yeah, from the

coughing. And like, I missed her. And she's so healthy compared to me and works out, you know, twice a day and does all this stuff. And I just kind of like your podcast, I have some beef. That's veils regimen, and a Dr. Pepper. And I didn't get anything. And I know lots of people like this just it's been bad. Melissa has a forcefield I mean, she never gets sick. And, and I mean, like somebody, you know, float by me and I get in looks at me wrong and I get sick. It's so annoying

socks profit. So you've been working from home? No, you've been going into the office? Yes, I did. During the pandemic. We never I didn't miss a day except for those 11 days. I was locked in the room in my room with COVID which was bad. I remember that you were on the ropes. Yeah, we did. When we still did I still did this show. I remember. That's right, brother. That's your vow of poverty for the for the further ment of podcasting. Yes, crawler across the floor of treasuries to Mike.

Remember this? Oh goodness. So those of you that have it and know about it, we're lit. That means that we are live on the

air. It's it's a fantastic new format for podcasting that I'm very familiar with because I've been doing it for maybe 1314 years, but 15 years have no agenda but it never came together the way it is in these apps now with chat room with with live stream and of course the extra bonus of the live booster Graham's this thing is catching fire and I saw the new media show Todd and Rob they went live with video, which was made possible in the new version of pod verse with I think a lot

of background assist from Alex gates, since it was this new chipped up, choppy LS thingamabob video format HLS Yes, what I mean HLS which sounds HLS sounds like something bad that you can get can catch, but like RSV, I got a case of HLS now stay away from me, bro. Yeah, that's that I didn't realize that Alex was in on that. I was kind of like tangential to what was going on?

I think they jump in and whip them into shape. Well, I think because he's peer tube work has been with with HLS and no agenda tube, which is you know, the the peer tube instance that he runs, has this, this HLS capability. So I mean, what can you do? Tell us, besides the fact that pod verses now come into its own, into into a mature state of application, I would say, how does how does this what is this HLS stuff? And why is it important? And do I need a special special server for it?

How does this work? I think if I'm not mistaken, I'm not mistaken. Apple had a strong hand in in HLS. I think, if I'm not mistaken, so think I'm totally not the expert with with the video streaming formats, but I think if I understand it correctly, sort of HLS is like it's an acronym like or something. Yes, right. Yes. HTTP Live Streaming is that oh, okay. That helps HTTP Live Stream.

Yeah, you like segment you segment the, the stream into chunks, I guess chunks are something in the new rather than like trying to stream on an unbroken rights as opposed to mp3 streaming, Riah, that kind of thing. So this is why it works on on curio caster as well, because that's basically a web browser and he's wet. The web browsers already understand this is HLS format. Well, I think they're using a library. I don't know, I don't

know if the browsers don't understand it natively. But I think they're, I think they're using a sort of a common library to do this that understands it. Will. It may Safari, I think may do it HLS natively. I don't know about Chrome based browsers. Okay. There's a lot yeah, there's a lot I don't know about it. But I do know it's way more efficient. You It tolerates it tolerates poor connections well, and it's just it's the right way to go. But it's the modern approach. It's

not just video it does mp3 and AC three and all other AAC. So is this something we should be using in general also for for audio lit streaming? I think I think the difference here is, again, with the caveats of non knowledge of video, I think the difference here is that something like mp3 streaming is so small already, like audio only streaming is very, is as already just efficient by by nature. Whereas something like video streaming

is so heavy, right? You have you really like you can survive with some made with audio streams that are a little bit fatter than you can with an with a video stream. That's fat, you really have to pare that down and make it nice for you know, latency and things like that. But Nathan G says HLS lets you skip back to the to catch the start of the Live episode and even increase the playback speed to catch. Oh, okay, that's cool. Yeah, is it? Is it packet based? I'm not real sure. I don't know

how deep in the, in the, in the OSI stack it goes. I don't know if it goes all the way down to the you know, like so now when the lower levels now I need to do is also baking web torrent. And then we don't even need streaming servers. We don't even need infrastructure just works. Yeah, it'll it'll only take. It'll be here in two years. Yeah. Now that's like, 10 years for anything. Climate change related? Yep. We'll have how green hydrogen and 10 years. Okay, great.

Always 10 years? Course five years. And always? Well, I remember we might have talked about this in a recent episode, was it BitTorrent live or something? And with a bit bit torrent before, they, I don't know, somehow they they became a company and took money, and then it all sucked. But they were going to do something? Maybe that's what web torrent is, I don't know. But I've always been very enamored of the idea that you didn't need a central server for streaming stuff for a number

of reasons. But I always thought that would be cool. If that actually worked, then I think web torrent does it to some degree. It does, except the you know, the, the problem was you always just, it's hard to get everybody to, to seed and to participate.

Right? It's like it's like you have this I wouldn't I don't know if I call it a chicken and egg problem but you you have to have enough is the same it's the same as the DHT DHT bootstrap problem that you have with DHT based networks once you get to a critical mass something like IPFS you print it you can you can ride you're good to go. But then there's that initial thing of trying to get enough peers online and and bootstrapped

Yeah. To so that you have other people participating. Like and it seems like every time you would boot up a live stream you would have to go through that entire process again. You know, it's like it will it's the way it is with bits with Bit Torrent to every time you you find something and you start to download it. It's like okay, went offline. He went, one guy, one guy, stay online man, don't

Oh, he went offline. Yeah, yeah, remember that I'm, in a way it's like nostre, which I've been, I've been, I'm still experimenting with. And it's, you're so right, that Alex is right to about the relays. It's all about the relays 100% of any issue is relay related. And I can just I think probably 90% of people who try out noster say, Oh, it's a Twitter that's decentralized which of course isn't it? I mean, the protocol is built for anything was it notes over things and relays or

whatever it stands for some light? Yes, yeah. But the minute you boot up and a relay is not isn't there or is overloaded and you know, stuff doesn't load and I mean, the user experiences is very hit or miss and please don't email me tell me that I'm doing it wrong. You're holding it wrong. You're holding it wrong. And then so I was really jacked when when Umbro I think was a Dorsey said oh, you know he posted a screen picture because you know why? Why post on you? He doesn't post words.

The like nobody does anymore. They can emoji PV which I guess is noster for a beautiful life or you know, have a great day or whatever it is like oh, you can now load or rely on your Umbro. I'm like, oh, okay, now now you're Now you're talking. So I install it? Yeah. All right. So it's like several other apps that are all exciting on Umbro. But unless you have a public IP with with with a cert with it, so you can do HTTPS or in this case w s s is not going to work for you. What is W SS?

This is the w s i don't know if some this is like a I rarely hear acronym that I've never heard before. I had no idea what this is. Well, I learned about it because w s s is is the here w s on HTML now see, here it is. Stack Overflow. Web web web sockets WebSocket protocol. Oh, okay. Now I'm just Yes, you didn't know this. Now. Gotcha. Okay, so

so all the apps expect a W s s connection. But of course, your Umbral is not going to be w s s out of the box is W S. So even though I use to scale, which is pretty secure, I think I would now have to go through the effort of setting up a cert for the for the encrypted session. And otherwise, the apps won't talk to my relay, and the relay only will archive what I'm doing anyway. It's not a relay that you can use publicly, as far as I understand.

So there's no, there's no like, tours a no go. Is which I don't run over tour. Yeah, but I mean, like if somebody had wanted to do their nostril failover tour, that's, that's not going well, you still have to have a secure. Yeah, it's looking for a secure sockets layer. Because I mean, 90% of the people that have umbrellas like at home, they're not they don't have public IPs mapped to that. No, it did. It's all Tor. I mean, I haven't used what Tor for me blows. I mean, it's just

oh, it's slow. It sucks. You know, half the stuff you want to do you have to switch to a Tor browser. So tail scale is is you know, Godsend but your public put your public connections like to your channels and stuff. That's that's Tor. Is that that Tor course yeah, yeah. Which is because if you're coming back through if you're coming back through your firewall, your home network, you know, then you're gonna have to if it doesn't do

tour, then you kind of out of the water. Yeah, you're and even so there's so I have to reopen a channel to my to my my Umbral node with podcasts index at least once every two three weeks. Because whatever. I've noticed this with your own with your own note as well. No, no, I noticed it with your node because I had to dump all the transactions out for the tax.

Curry's opening and closing 2 million sets every day every time it was 2 million it was like when the world is going on and it was like force close force close force close force close from podcast index and that's a pretty yeah pretty good node you know I'm I don't know how to configure it differently so I'm so sad blows Yeah, and it's it's really the I think it's the laptop that I'm running that arborlon That's why I ordered a Bitcoin machines another one of those because I have no problem

with that machine, even though it's also running over Tor same network. So it's got to be something with the with the machine. It's all it's amazing. Any of it works at all. If it's amazing any of this works, but congratulations to Mitch on on a great new version of pod verse. Love it. I love that. Thanks, Todd, for running with a huge pair of shears loppers has no,

he does not afraid of anything. Oh yeah, we'll just do the switching protocols on the fly or whatever it was, it didn't work and then T switch to I guess he was streaming an audio slash, whatever. MBA versus video so and he just switched it on the fly and it all worked. It was amazing, was really amazing. And he's whatever whatever they've got go in there with his setup. He's able to he's able to get it. Me in a pot, the pot things go out for the video and the audio stream BOTH Yeah, I

mean, he's there. You can see the sort of like the narrowing down of these of these troubles each week as they go in this. Like they're settling on an actual, stable platform that works. Very cool. And Mitch is Hi, Mitch is homepod Verse I'm in and I am to me like he was he's pretty excited about. He's pretty excited about this version. And in mean, any should be. Feels good. Yeah, it feels like it's really becoming. It feels like it's taken a step into like, the upper level of

podcast apps. Now the stabilities there, the polishes, they're just getting shot versus a great app. Yeah. And did you tell me that podcast guru was going to implement value for valued payments? Maybe I hope so. In the future. I thought I heard that somewhere. I don't know. I'm trying to keep up. No one tells me anything anymore. There. Yeah. I don't know why. Yeah, hope so. I, we did get a great gift from Marcus couch. If you don't think

you know, Marcus couch, but he I know him. Oh, goodness, back to the pod show days. And so Marcus Heyman, his lovely wife always stayed in touch. And he's a big fan of podcasting. 2.0. And he was always, always promoting and boosting. And he said that he won in an auction podcast apps.com. Whoa, anyway, and he said, Hey, you wanna You want me to transfer that to you? So now you hold on to that boot case, he's just going to point it to

to our Apps page. So instead of new Cast apps, we'll also have podcast apps.com. Well, that's a strong win. Yeah, I think he gets it in 11 days or something. I don't know what he paid for it. I hope he didn't go crazy on that. Oh, yeah. Hope it Yeah. Strong winds. Strong wind is the right word. I like cast app stock. Yeah, that's pretty good. Great domain. Great to me. I tried to register lawful but awful today was a phrase that you all did

you not read the latest? How top political podcasts are spread unsubstantiated and false claims? Oh, I remember lawful but awful. That's. That's Vicki, Vicki, Vicki. So she came out with another article, our our pal Vicki over there at Brookings. We have printed it last night. And I'm about what I'm gonna send Brookings, a bill for the amount of toner that I had to use to print this 25,000 word monstrosity of an article with a lot of graphs, a lot of graphs less of an article and more like

a pamphlet, or a or a or an imprint is very, very long. And I have not even I have not read it yet. Well, the funny thing is, you know, the article is audible reckoning, which I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite sure why she chose that as a title. Valerie vert Shafter how top political podcasters which I'm not in that list, by the way, spread

unsubstantiated and false claims. And our whole article as it comes to the evolution of the podcasting medium is filled with unsubstantial and false claims, such as Ben Hammersley, of course invented podcasting. And he is a podcast pioneer. This so I don't have on hand the article that we the last time this came up, you know, and we actually got we just we discussed it on the show

for sure. Yeah. It's been a couple of months ago. But this was the one where, like, on the first page, she referenced a New York Times article, and she said, and she summarized and she she gave a link to the article and summarized what the articles conclusions were. So of course, I clicked the link and went and

read the article. The articles conclusions were the 180% opposite of the thing that she said they were it was like, she said, The New York Times discovered this sentence so that when actually they said literally in the article, it was

the exact opposite of the thing. And I was like, okay. Okay, like she had she said some things that were very interesting, although not the way I remember it, but it doesn't matter, because what happened, according to Ben Hammersley and Ben Hammersley, who basically invented the whole, a whole category. He just because he said, audio blogging, podcasting, Guerilla Media. This is before anything was really

before Dave and I put it all together with the iPod. But at the time, this term was describing serial audio content that could be played on demand through any mp3 device such as the then increasingly popular iPod, listeners could take their audio with them, pause it as needed, or the pause start button and start again at their convenience. Early adopters of the medium shared episodes through really simple syndication feeds, which users could consume, by subscribing

directly or indirectly. The RSS architecture here comes facilitated the growth of a decentralized medium detached from regulatory oversight. Which I like that's the that's the only part of the article I think, is really good. Because then she goes on with it was a medium where quote, anyone can be a publisher, anyone can be a broadcaster, according to one of podcasting pioneers, footnote 14, and that's literally been hammered. Hammersley. So he, I guess, did it all? And then

yeah, where was it? There was something funny in here, like once written off as a dead medium. See, where was that it was? Now, it doesn't really matter. But what, what what I think is unfortunate, because the again, the whole point of this article is podcasting has no moderation. There's unlike

social media, there's no way for the crowd to push back. Where I would say immediately Well, if you actually did some research, you see that currently booster grams are a way to push forward or push back and there is sufficient work on cross app comments. So since there, since it's all just people talking to themselves, with no feedback loop, complete bull crap, because we do have things such as email and, and, and people do have places to comment or even services to comment. You know,

we don't have any. We don't have any, any moderation. It's always about moderation with her. And how do we get the overlords to moderate and make sure that people don't get miss or disinformation out there? And again, if she did any work, and maybe did even a Google search, you might find that what she says, Well, there's no incentive for the companies that make podcast apps to do any of this. That companies. Yeah, I mean, the beauty is, if she, she seems that you know, Brookings seems

to have a lot of money. So I say Brookings, why don't you come in, read the API docs and create your own app, you can use our index, then you can put all kinds of reporting bits and an alarm bells that you can push that go somewhere until somebody can do all kinds of stuff like this dashboard. We have a dashboard. Yes, you can have a complete dashboard. You could have a an app that centers all the stuff that is bad, you could

actually you as Brookings Institute could do this. You could filter out all the stuff that is awful, lawful, but awful. That should be the name of the app. LBA Yes, I tried. I'm sure someone somebody's already registered it but that's literally what this what the content is called. lawful but awful. Yeah, this is always this always strikes me similarly to the way that the Bitcoin narrative of you know, it's just used by bad guys. The bad guys use it for all kinds of terrible things. So

clearly, it's bad. Well, you know, like, have you checked out the US dollar lately past use for leg it used for a lot of bad things for the history of all of, you know, for all of the entire history of its of its use in there. It's like, well, yeah, podcasts. Sure there's misinformation and disinformation and all kinds of information on podcasts. We know step outside every now and then you're gonna see that there's a diff in DM on every corner of the street in every newspaper.

It's all over the place. MDM is Yeah, Mal DIS and missing from it. Of course. I found that when I found the article, the US podcast, this is from October 3. Last year, yeah, right. 22. Yeah. us in the title of the article is us podcasters spread Kremlin narratives on Nord Stream sabotage. It turns out to all be true. Yes, yes. So

here it says the US did it. They just give me the quote US did it conspiracy on popular American podcast and there A chart that is now confirmed on a few saw now confirmed by Pulitzer Prize winning Seymour Hersh, Seymour Hersh, who? Who has stopped like the Vietnam War he was. He is credited with being the impetus for stopping the Vietnam War because of his reporting on the atrocities committed there. But okay. Turns

out to be true. So I can't see anything here where she retracts that, of course, nobody's listening to the retraction in this in this new article, the role of podcasting apps and tech companies. Okay, that we talked to some of those people since the early years. What does to you if you since the early years of podcasting apps have taken a hands off approach to moderating moderating content? And for button No, no Apple deep platform, Spotify, the platform so no, since the early years of

pod, I think overcast, take stuff off. Since the early years of podcasting apps have taken a hands off approach to moderating content have provided a sparse architecture to facilitate distribution, as the medium continues to evolve and expand for 18 years, the tech companies that develop the tech companies

Hey, Mitch, this is you. The tech companies that can go a Franco Franco Oscar your tech companies that develop podcasting apps, you can help shape the information ecosystem in important ways by crafting more robust content moderation guidelines and practices, promoting greater transparency and improving the in app experience for users. Which starts with content moderation. I've noticed started with sleep timers. The number one requested feature is not content moderation. Oh,

Vicki. Oh, is it asleep timer? Dark Mode, okay. As the medium grows in popularity, oh, this is interesting. And based on the European Union's recently enacted Digital Services Act, which the DSA which sets forth the contours of digital content moderation across the EU, podcasting apps may soon be forced to reckon with how they handle content that falls into the so called here it is lawful but awful domain, such as hate speech, misinformation, and targeted harassment. Well, I

harass people on the podcast all the time. You do and I'm very proud of that. These policies will have to balance a desire to limit the real world harm harm that can stem from the mass dissemination of objectionable content with a vital necessity not to curtail speech too aggressively, or inconsistency or its balance. Okay, to address these challenges, tech companies should colon colon, colon provide more detailed transparent guidelines for the content that podcasters can

share on their apps. Why think waiter and the waiter there these options? Do I get to pick between these options? No, no? No. It's a sure Okay, sure. You should? Because I would like to choose between these. Yeah, no, no, it's a should do. We want to share this with the app developers so they know what they should be doing. Develop detailed, transparent guidelines for the content that apps will promote or recommend. Hmm. She also has some she's misinformed.

She believes that these apps have algorithms that recommend stuff. Here, in addition to the guidelines detailing what content tech companies will host some platforms have developed separate guidelines for detailing the types of content their recommendation algorithms will promote the algorithm get in most podcast apps, it goes like this GREP the request logs and find out which which at which podcast

is being recommended, like requested the most? Or how many subscribers are in that are the most for each podcast and then recommend the ones that are at the top? That is the algo that's the extent of the algorithm. There's there's no there's no complicated, incorrect, incorrect, incorrect. Vicki Brookings Institute institution says apart from Word and route of mouth recommendations, which will also soon stop adding that but you

know that will editorialize editorial. Users often discover new podcasts through in app recommendation systems like featured most popular lists, or personalized recommendations. podcast app, like Spotify and Apple podcast should should develop similarly detailed policies on the types of content they may choose not to amplify to their users via recommendation systems. Even if the app still decide to host it,

which it emits. You need to you just need to stop Yeah, just bothering about HLS and stuff that makes your app work and just really focus on this page double down on the paperwork of regulations and policies for at least six months. But wait, there's more. Improve reporting processes for individual podcast episodes. Ah, bad episode, podcast apps have not yet developed sophisticated real time systems to identify

harmful content at scale. And can you can you only guess what their what they're what her solution is for this broken shit? Broken feature? Reg ID laws, regulations. No, but we are literally doing what she is asking for transcripts and machine learning to so your app needs to scan through all the transcripts to find stuff that's wrong.

Yeah, so so the way this works is you you transcribe everything in then somebody at when a when a particular strain of MDM is identified a strain I like that, yes, as an Android, a new MDM variant, when a new variant of MDM is identified. Such as the, the, the US, the US blew up the pipeline, various variants of MDM of MDM, once that is identified, somebody plugs it into the system. They stick it in there, it goes out to all the

to all the apps and cleanses them of claims. All of the episodes, that it's a vaccine, this is an Indian vaccine is cleanses them of all the episodes that have this phrase or this terminology that have been identified by GPT or something within. I want to I want to I want to turn, I want to turn it in six months later, when Seymour Hersh writes an article that says that it was actually true that all then they hit undo the Undo Ctrl Z Ctrl Z, Z. All

right, so but I want to turn this around. And I want to offer to the Brookings Institute or institution. Yes, thanks. I want to offer our services, anything we can do to help because everything you'd say, No, this is the last I'll read of this. Because then it goes into role of government design, an app architecture that allows for richer community engagement

and more dynamic information environment. Vicki, Google, okay, podcasting 2.0 The namespace you have not done the work people who who support Brookings with your donations, stop them and take them back until she does the work because she literally is discussing what we're doing. pause on this podcast apps could experiment, which we call running with scissors, with a variety of inept features for these purposes, including voting and commenting systems with

additional features at the episode level. Hello, Vicki. With the development of open source transcription models like open AIS whisper, adding transcripts to episodes has never been easier. Oh, everyone's so creative. Building on ad hoc, decentralized contribution from fans, users and hosts could be a way to add Show Notes and references to podcast episodes like I don't know, chapters, anybody.

Moreover, podcasting apps could experiment with up voting and down voting features for these contributions, drawing inspiration from community driven websites such as Reddit, and Stack Overflow, or Twitter's a community. All of all of this has been invented, much of it has been implemented, and you're still in the Stone Age Vicki, and we will be happy we welcome you. I think it's a great idea. As long as you promote the namespace and apps that do 2.0 I want lots I want people to build safe apps.

I would love that. That'd be great. You can use an app that for for adults, like pod verse cast, thematic curio caster podcast guru fountain or you could have your childish pussy app we want you to build that I really I'm serious. I will help I will consult for free I will tell you how to do it we have all this so stop wasting your donors money Vicki you can have real scissors are you can have safety scissors of course

with the rounded with the rounded tip. Yeah, they just fallen they we fall on a stick in your jugular? No. Now here's one more thing. I do think that she she thinks this is very important podcast or funding. Despite the importance of advertisement and sponsorship revenue to the podcasting ecosystem, there are no obvious requirements for financial disclosures beyond those agreed upon between a given series and its sponsors.

Although which losers Could you play? Sibley well, and but we've already been done in our world, we literally read out the money that people send us, we could not be more transparent. If the I mean, like, no business has to tell anybody who gives them money unless it's like a terrorist. You're not required to like to like report when somebody gives you, hey, somebody just paid me. Okay. Like?

Well, I think I think the point she's making is that the radio industry and social media influencers have to disclose if they're being paid off their I don't know, an advisor to something. I think that I think that's what what she's saying. And that, that these financial relationships are not clear. It would just be another lever or another wedge, which is why I think we like the lightning Bitcoin network, except to fight exactly what she wants to useless for. But again, all of

it is completely available. I think it'd be podcasting. 2.0 There's plenty of room for these kinds of crippled apps, also known as crap. On the fly on the fly, fly on the fly, I should have said we should make plural craps. I should have man craps, double. I've got it. Yeah, I've got a cheat sheet. By the way, it is my 100% Cheat Sheet. It is basically a printout of the thesaurus for everything I can reuse to every term I can use to replace 100%. So yes, yes, please.

I agree with you, Adam entirely entirely. I would have more respect for I just would have more respect for the, for the, for the arguments being made here. If she would

stop spreading misinformation while she's doing it. I mean, this is the same problem that I had with Leo's comments on pod on pod news weekly review is, it's like, okay, you know, you're, you just said that the that Alex Jones was the whole point of the podcast index, which is completely not true, and go on to save like three or four things that are complete lies that are absolutely, demonstrably. Everybody knows

they're not true. So it's like, boy, if you want to have any credibility, when you criticize other people from met for misinformation, stop spreading it during your criticism, that just has to be sort of like the well that's kind of table stakes. But that's kind of the point is that misinformation, disinformation, Mal information. It is it's all subjective. And everyone gets stuff, right. And she's literally making the case that regulated businesses that have lots of, of these aspects

like television. They're just that is just as bad. Except I guess you can get fired easier or something like that. The point is, it's such a waste of their money, whereas they if they believe that is the world they want to live in. My point is we have the toolkit we even have, what's the what's the framework that the breeze started off with? The podcast work? Yeah, the open source framework. Oh, you? Air, air, air something air play airsoft air?

Air soft. Now, you're talking about Ben, Ben hills. Yeah, I mean, we haven't you have it? Well shoot, even you could take pod friend open source version, you can spin up an app quite quickly, and implement all these features, instead of wasting Dave's paper and toner with your 25,000 words of marginally entertaining content, which is just regurgitated from the last time. Anytime, anytime podcast player. And that's what you're thinking.

Anytime you had written in flutter. Yeah, and I would love it because it would promote the namespace, it would promote so much, it will be a very, very good idea. This to get to dig and none dig into this a little bit, but kind of pull this thread a bit. So I think there's we have to understand. I believe that that there's trade offs with a lot of this technology and maybe I'm, I'm still deep in the weeds on technological society, the Juggalo book, mind is just

aiming in this direction sort of all the time. But for Ferny for example, Mastodon we know is there any doubt I was talking to Alex this week about this? Is there any doubt in anybody's mind that what is going to happen with mastodon? We can all agree it's better than better than Twitter. I I think we can all agree Oh, yes, it isn't, as Sure. But just because it's better does not mean that it is not that he doesn't have his own problems and B could potentially be even worse in the right

circle under the right circumstances. And what I mean by that is, so actually, it's actually much easier to do something nefarious with Mastodon sure, like, get like create a reputation system. Like some sort of open reputation system that tags each individual Mastodon user account with a with a social score. Yeah, sure. And then all these new instances begin to begin to sign on to this reputation system. So they will instantly block replies from people who don't, who don't

satisfy the reputation score. I mean, like, that's even easier to do. That's way easier to do on Mastodon than it is on Twitter, you really couldn't do that on as an outside user on Twitter, that this just because we go decentralized, and we just doesn't doesn't mean all that horrible stuff can happen. Right? Right. And it could happen. It can happen in podcasting, too. Like if, if the right people get involved and start doing what you know, the things that she's describing, and start

transcribing everything. And then using using AI to tag certain things that interested parties think are misinformation, with no regard for down the line, whether they turn out to be true. That the things decentralization doesn't always protect you from the bad stuff because No, but open open source is, of course, always the answer. Which is, is simultaneously the problem because there's no easy

money in open source, Enter value for value. You know, but that's, I don't want to get off in that and that course of the conversation, but there is not going to be one network where everybody communicates that will not be one. Even the idea of a global Town Square. Do you hear what you're saying? No, you have town squares. We have a small we have communities. No agenda is a perfect example. 10,000 people on the mastodon instance instance 2000 blocks from other instances, fine, but that's

fine. It's okay. That's okay. That's how it should be. Which is again why I really hope I really I would love for twit who understand this very well. They've blocked no agenda twit dot social, they've blocked no agenda. That's fine. You know, grab these 2.0 features and build an app that is for your own little protected environment that is that you feel

comfortable with that's that's the whole point. You can let in what you what your community your local community wants to let it's it's a federation it's like the federated you know, the United States is a is a republic of Federation, Texas will say no to some things. And you know, it can be convinced otherwise. And we often have to convince things from the inside out like this

things that Texans don't agree with. And we have our own little our issues and battles, which can even be on the on the city level. That's a beautiful way this is the AI they're trying to shoehorn technology into the new world order global everything. That's the problem that thinking is just incorrect. It is unnatural. It is not how humans work. That's not how the world

has ever worked. And thanks to the internet, they have a lot of ways to, to do they, I'll say have a lot of ways to do what they want, but you also just don't you just don't and I think that's fine. I don't know. Do you want to is that making any sense? Yeah, I think so. It'd be a bitching and moaning and build something

that's a good point. That's a good point is the the well but you know that that really speaks to what the goal is the goal may not be the building the goal may be the bitching and moaning thank you and rang and because good point because the the bitching and moaning a lot of times is a is a those who can't build bitch that's what it is. The What was the reason data or whatever the reason for

existence raison d'etre? Yeah that that's a lot of times they the griping or the pointing out of problems is the whole point and there is nothing that new that gets built or created that in I think all the pieces are in place to do everything to do everything that she has various that is proposed right but are these terrible but I don't even think it's nefarious. I think it'd be fantastic if people would make all to make

your your payment stuff. Value for value is literally that if done in The false scope of value for value dot info where part of the feedback loop is recognizing and is showing what the value was that you sent back. There's your transparency transcript 100. You can I get to offer you a fully about fully na just fully correct. utterly, utterly correct on the mark but yes, please more transcripts many, many more transcripts and even fit with chat GPT throw all Hey, if you go to mp3 dot no

agenda notes.com. It's an open directory of every single mp3 I have created since that systems exists, which is quite a few, but also all the s dot SRT files, throw it in your AI, throw it in there, find stuff, block it, whatever. The fact is, you can throw it in, you can also say I want to find something and someone else could build something I want to find something specifically. Um, this is what I'm for. So I don't care that that she wants to that she wants to use all these things we

have developed for what I think are awful things. But I wish you would get someone to do it already. Brookings must have $100 million build something it helps everybody gotta be more than that. They got bet you they get it they get tons of money. That I think there's a there's a naivety another French word, named Benjamin will be so proud of you read on Datron every day what else? I'm reading the Shaka Zulu. Now I know I'm reading Jacques Cousteau.

So I think there's a sort of naivete of amongst I don't know how old you know, Victoria is but she's, she seems young. You seem very young from the picture. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm thinking that there is just a naivety of whatever. There's naivety of trust in the establishment. And, and I'm going to say that, you know, people who are old enough to remember, you don't even have I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just looked at Brookings Institution,

their form 990 $195 million. In the last year they brought in, they have $568 million in assets. Build something. Give them a boost. Booster grant, like, come on big. Boost us. Exactly. But I'm thinking that you don't I mean, you don't have to be old enough to go back to like Gulf of Tonkin level this new government field misinformation. Another good one, you can just go back, you can just go back to something as recent as Syrian gas attacks or

Yeah, the white The White Helmets anything? Yeah. Or or Biden laptop? Russian disinformation? Or if you want to go back to something just that's that's super uncontroversial about the lack of WMDs in Iraq? I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. There's so aluminum tubes. Do you think for one second, that if that if the State Department under George Bush had access to some sort of system, that would, they could instantly send out a bat signal to flag all the podcasts that were created? They

were critical of the idea that there were WMDs in Iraq? Do you think that they would have hesitated for one second to do that? Of course, they would have done it. And it was completely

bogus and untrue. But that's, that's if you build this, this is what I've tried to say over and over and over it the the Terrible idea in this The unfortunate thing in this country in the United States, what I'm talking about is every every every year, but the left, right, bull crap, it let it it is so it ends up pushing things forward, that is in nobody's interest. And so it's like well, my guys are in charge right now.

So I'm gonna get try to silence all the other guys. And you end up building a system to where when the power flip you get screwed by the thing you build, but that's, that's only with centralized systems. So I really am advocating and I will contact her if possible, I say Would you please let me give you a little tour of what is possible everything permanent everything she says on the list is possible. And I welcome it. I really meeting you're gonna,

I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Yes, we're gonna pump the brakes and have a Zoom meeting. I am all I really am Ford. put some money into this thing and use it how you find appropriate. That's totally cool. You can build that I would use that dashboard. Um, yeah, I mean, I was searched up for Yeah, but I mean predetermine whatever you want to do, that it's all good. And then when it flips around, then you can flip your system around. There's what is not possible, it's not

possible to build this for everybody. And that is because of the unfortunate nature of RSS. And the unfortunate nature nature of a richly diversified hosting environment, which includes IPFS. So that genies out of the bottle, but if you feel that you need to protect the vulnerable people, then please stop writing and wasting your $195 million a year and come over here and put some money into the ecosystem and build something. I mean, I'm extending my hand here. You open palm open palm.

Anyway, quite enough of that, I believe. Let's talk about subscriptions. Because I know I've been keeping my eye on what Buzzsprout did. Because as you know, I have a vested interest in moving away from PayPal on no agenda. Just because it's a very weak link in the chain. We are we do have a lightning node. And as soon as the lightning and this was from Ibex that it

already works. The way we want it to be it's a great solution for people if you want to accept open donations, or you can even set a preset amount. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, pause, stop. Are you saying that you're back stuff is up and running now as functional? rolled it out? We have not, we have not promoted it yet. And the reason why is because I would prefer it to also accept key send and it doesn't accept key send yet, I want people to also be able to

use the 2.0 app. So this is the shoehorn I'm using against Ibex is like you know, because we'll bring him on this show, we'll promote him anything you want. We'll talk about it, I know agenda, we'll get other podcasters to use it. But you got to have key send enabled so that I can receive booster grams, then they're having, I don't know, development is slow. And I respect that it's okay. But my point is, we need other

systems for value for value. Now. PayPal is of course, you can do an open PayPal like we have here as well open PayPal donation, you can put your note in there, which is also become a problem because PayPal shortened the field that you can put a note in, which is very annoying, and we have no control over that. How long is it Dino? Si? It's like 150 characters is not even a tweet length. It's it's George Graham is longer than that. Exactly.

But it's very rare. That is not really many. And please don't email me. There are not many easy systems comparable to pay pal subscription that you can set up your subscription. Some people do build it yourself. Right. And so and I'm very intrigued by what Buzzsprout has done because it links right into

I think Apple Pay and and Google and Google's pay system. Now what I'm still not exactly, I can't I don't think I can explain or push a 15% fee through to my podcast partner, even though I'm told that it's comparable to everything else, it may be comparable to we're better than Patreon but I don't see how it can be lower than than PayPal. But regardless, I would love to have an open system that we can put into podcasting 2.0 apps, it can use any back end system and I have

two requirements for it to be value for value. One is it can be it can the amount has to be open you know some people want to send it now. When people send the dollar we actually lose money on it. I mean that's that's that's almost run it as almost rude. But it's okay. If that's what you want to do. That's what you want to do. I want to be Bitcoin I want to be anything that that we choose it to be, it has to be open. And in in the case of my vision, my vision for podcasting value for

value. I would like to split to be honored in this because that is that is truly something that is unique to our version in podcasting. 2.0 of value for value is the splits can flow through because I feel if we if we go a subscription amount route and leave the app developers out of the system,

then we've then we've made a mistake. And currently you know there's no subscription system that, that can value a split architecture, where the podcast can determine what can go to other people now, that may not work with, with Fiat fun coupons and dollars. But if we implement a subscription system into podcasting 2.0, you will be really, really, really beautiful to take into account a version of the splits, which we already

have, that can be incorporated. And I know that you've been talking to people about doing exactly this. Yeah, and we're in we're gonna have, we're gonna have Tom on the show soon. As soon as we've got Tom from Buzzsprout. Yeah, yes, for Buzzsprout. Because, you know, their, their vision is to have that be, you know, something that is standard, standard Eisele that could become open. So that they, I think, yes, I think and we, me and him, talked about it this

week, and hashed out a bunch of ideas. And it was a great, great discussion. So he's gonna come on, and we're gonna, like, just brainstorm about it on the board meeting, sit here soon, and try to see if we can, you know, sort of come up with a with a framework or an open an open way to do this, where that where basically what they built can just become sort of a standard that everybody can can adopt. And I think after talking to

him, the other, I think it's very doable. And I think it would be very, I think it's, I think there's a way to do it, where the apps where the apps don't have to, again, re architect some new thing, look, so the way that they're, you know, the way their system works, and I did this on the Pod news weekly review show. So I opened up my cast thematic, I hit the the funding button, which on cast Matic is down

there toward the bottom on the right. So if you have a funding tag in your feed, and you hit the button, it'll pop up a web view that goes to whatever the funding page is. And so since James and Sam had their their subscriptions, set up the other Buzzsprout subscription page, in the funding tag, it opened. So it opened in a WebView in the app. And right there said, Oh, do you want to know do you want to subscribe? And what level like 357 10 bucks whatever, Daddy's some options, that's

a problem there? Yeah, it is. It is. It is. So but I'm just I'm just talking through the experience. Sure. I go down, I choose the $10. And I hit a hit subscribe, and it comes up. So you want to do Apple Pay, or do you want to do a credit card or whatever I hit Apple Pay, because I've already got this set up. Hit it. Face ID me done. Back Back to in and then I hit I hit OK. I'm back in the in the in cast thematic. I never actually left cast semantics. Right. Right. Which is the whole point.

That's the whole point. Yeah. So yeah. So in honest and so the web nature of this thing is the only way that I see that this could work. I'm if I can just interrupt. I'm just looking at that. We said just now I see a choose a fan emoji. Where's my notes go? I don't just mean I don't see a note in this Buzzsprout thing. I did what you just described on pod news weekly review. It opens up to support to become a supporter 358 $10 Choose a fan emoji name, email, then my credit card. We're missing an

important part here, which is no, not incredibly important. So I just want to and the only reason I'm saying this is because the more I can develop this over 15 years we know what works we know what doesn't work, we know what's needed. So the end again, like so we're gonna have Tom also will talk about this more more with him. But I think I think that this is my feeling he Tom did not tell me this, but this is my feeling. Is they? Is that what you see right now? Was that not an MVP?

Not not not a minimum product. But that was the thing that they could? Did. They felt confident in, in order to make it where things did not go south. Because if you if you come out of the gate and you enter and you put in something like an empty box where somebody can type their own amount, right? You immediately have support problems because you have people that accidentally typed $2,000 And they're like, Oh crap, I

need to I need to roll that back. What do I do? Like, I think the incarnation that it is right now it was probably the safe launch technique. Oh, yeah. No, go for a lot of things incredibly hard. This guy This stuff. Absolutely. We saw Pay Pal struggle enormously. And I could just tell you where this leads, which is why I like lightning, which is why I want this implemented in lightning as well. On PayPal all the time, we get people say, hey, you know,

all of a sudden, my payment is under review. I mean, you have to do know your customer, you have to do all kinds of stuff to terrorism financing. When someone does it from overseas, you get all kinds of issues all this it's a very, it's a hard business to be in, in the Fiat subscription business is very, very hard. And kudos to them for doing it at all. But I think so when we can, we can nail so we can sort of so

nail down a framework when it comes on. But I think my take away from from our discussion was that it's very, it's it's not only doable, but I think it's doable in a great way that keeps the apps from getting in trouble with any app store policies or anything like that. Like I think I think this could be a really good thing. So anyway, I think I think it's great. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, I see a bleak future for any payment systems in any app store. Just in general. Yeah.

Well, um, so what I mean by that is, when you when you open up a web view, the way the bad the app stores, force the apps is they can't take payments in the app through they can't sell things in the ad, I understand. It has to it has to open a web browser, it has to open a web browser in this does, you know, like this is a web based transaction. But you know, that's a very simple policy change to make.

It is yeah, so what we'll see what happens that I don't know that they're willing, I don't know that the app stores are willing to go to the mat or something like that. Now with the current political climate as it is. It's a foregone conclusion in my mind. I mean, the app stores aren't are evil. They're evil. And the story artists are under a lot of scrutiny. Yeah, well, then they should allow Progressive Web Apps Apple should allow it to be done

properly, but they won't because they're evil. Ultimately, they're greedy and evil. And they the that's the master they serve and that's okay. But let's not Mammon. Yes. What? Mammon? Yes, mammon, money. This, like the old biblical term for money is mammon, Ma. What are their master? Yeah, they serve their master mammon, wealth regarded as an evil influence or false object of worship and devotion.

Well, it is. And but then that's okay. It's just let I always get so sad when I see people trying to get around exactly this problem, says all all Apple has to do is if they don't feel like it today, or Google, and you're seeing as Google is, by the way, did I not say that this is a quagmire? It's a piece of crap. And it's a big mistake this whole chat GPT just see what happened to Google. And I heard something about there was a fail on launch or

something that I'd never saw. So first of all details, they named it that they named their chat bot, barf. bar, bar, bar bar, okay, bar, but we just call it Google barf. And, and the first the first question that was asked, gave an incorrect answer, the stock price drops 9% 9%. And it's in his boat there. Now the now they're fighting over book, every engineer knows that what is happening here is not really

spectacular. It's a it's a parlor trick. I mean, it especially if it can't even get the answers, right, which is always going to be subjective. That's why you win a search, you get a list of links. Well, here's what most people clicked on. Okay. But now you have something coming back and saying, Well, I think this is what's happening. This is the answer to your question. Well, that's gonna be wrong. Lots of times. You know what I mean?

Yeah, if you if you take, that could be a way too. That can be the ultimate cya. If you think about it, like, if you just if you change your algorithm to just to just generate an answer based on on a quote model was like, Oh, I'm sorry. We just need to tweak the model. Yeah. And I know it's giving you wrong information, but we just need to tweak the models. It's going to destroy these getting killed. Oh, we just need to tweak the model. I mean, it's going it's the demise of Google because they

now are running after something that they know they know. And Sundar Pichai. He's not a marketing guy. He's a nerd. He's a technology guy. He knows what real AI looks like real machine learning, and it's not really anything even appropriate for consumers. So this parlor trick of taking the Some economists

asked Jeeves only you know, they they improved it great. Well, you get, you're getting a real world answer by something that pretends to be a human being, and everyone is just going to fall for this, but it's not going to deliver the profits to them. And Microsoft is going to be interesting, because they want to put this into all of their products. So you know, you open up Word, and you just say, type and apology letter, you know, type of resume, and it'll just start to get it all going

for you. And everyone will be kind of the same NPC non playing character drone, and you'll have all the same answers and all the same information will be no, and the people that will stand out, we'll be the ones that that are odd. So I don't know about you. I don't know if you've had any experience with this. But it's become popular now within Outlook and Gmail and all these different email clients to it, when you begin to type a reply. It'll want to like, auto complete your reply for you.

I don't usually say I don't have any of it. Okay, well, it's very common now. So you'll, you'll start to say, somebody else send you a thing and say, Hey, can you go can you get this information from me? And you say, and you start to reply. Yeah, I'm in the middle of something right now. And maybe it'll suggest to you that you autocomplete it with, but I'll get to that here in a few minutes. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Of course, of course, of course.

So that's, so that's this, like, if you take that to the next level, and have it auto generate an entire email to you, that would be sort of like this, this sort of model. But the way that I, what I've begun doing is in this sort of, like subconscious at the beginning, I would get these suggestions, of replies. And I would immediately see, I would see this gesture of green, you see that it's filled with this gentleman, I would say

Yeah, and I would, I would reject it. Because even though it's what I was about to say, I don't want the other person to think that I just hit a button and didn't actually think about what I was saying. Like, I don't want to give them a canned response. Because I don't want it to appear rude or is right here. This started with. I'm driving right now. I'll call you later. Yeah, that means like, why don't why don't you just turn your phone off them? You know, right? Or ever hear of hands free?

Bluetooth? And yeah, perfect example. Anyway, a long, long, long arc around all that. Let's go to social interact API endpoint. Very excited about this. Yes, it is. Now, why did you build this? And what's the idea? And what is it because it seems like something dynamite Well, a built it. Well built is a little bit, not the right term. You built it. I invented podcasts, you built the API, trust me, it's the same thing. Okay. So social interact wasn't in the API response. It just wasn't

there. So it needed to be there to begin with. They just interested missing is just a fee. It's just a tag that had not gotten around to yet. And it needed to be there. So and there was nothing in the whole chain there was no it was not being aggregated. It was not being someone's feed if it's in there, and it's not he wasn't even in the database. Yet. Nothing. No, no, I didn't know that. None of that. Oh, wow. So so I had no words here. No one No wonder this wasn't off the ground yet. Now,

I understand the problem. I seriously, I didn't know that. I didn't know that the root post was not no not your fault. No, I didn't know that. I would have gone easier on everybody. I didn't know what the root post wasn't available in the API. Pardon me Ah, well, I did I so I had to go and put it into party time. So that

would go get aggregated in then build the tables. And this just kind of goes into something else we can talk about to the brain which is no no no, which is deleting old episodes, when they appeared. When they do yes, I have this on my list too. So you can explain that to everybody how easy it is, we can do a mash up here. Alright. So the way that the table the table structure in the database is for the API is for

the index is we have we have a news feeds table. And this terminology this terminology came from the initial scheme it came from Freedom controller so some of these terminologies I loved I loved that there's legacy and there is beauty. So the podcasts table is called newsfeeds. The episodes table is called items, for obvious reasons. So excuse me, NF items is called NF items. So The newsfeeds table has a foreign key relationship with the NF Items table. So the NF Items

table references the news, the N ID in the news feeds table. And then, so that there's linkage between the two, there's a relationship episode and the and the fetus and the podcast itself, right. And then a whole lot of tables hang off of each one of those. So there's a thing called NF NF underscore value. Well, those

are, those are the value blocks. And they have a foreign key relationship, that table, the NF underscore value has a foreign key relationship with the news feed stable, so that we can so that we can pull a news feed, and then also do a join in the SQL in order to get the value blocks, but the value blocks themselves are stored in a different table. These sorts of table relationships are important, because you can you can separate you can have a same schema and separate concerns.

And you can also update various bits of data in different tables without necessarily locking, locking tables in the other. Could you explain just so I I've heard this term, first of all, having run some companies and worked with DBAs, database, design management, coaxing massaging it is as much voodoo and magic and experience and maybe even religion as it is technology is my experience. Yes, and yes, yes. But you can do things exactly the same in one database will behave differently from the

other one. What is this locking business? Why does it occur? And is it good? Is it bad? And good? Can you just give us a short primer on the locking of tables? Well, so the so if you think about it, when you these are calls, these are called atomic operations. So you have to you have to be sure that when you put when you when you do a transaction to a database, you have to be sure that the data is not going to change in the middle of, of the change you're

trying to make. So if you have parallel operations going on, if you have, if you have one process that's trying to update a table and another process that trying to delete records out of a table, who who wins? Do they both happen at the same time? Because then you have been you have corruption you have? Yeah. So you have to, you have to lock in at least some portion of the table, maybe not the entire table, but you have to lock the records that could potentially be changed. So you use something

called a query. It's, I'm losing it, I'm losing the terminology. But it's like a query plan, I'm sorry, query plan. So the query plan, look, you know, SM ends up estimating what table rows are going to be affected by certain action. And in certain circumstances, if if it looks if it sees that there's a potential for conflict, it will lock those particular rows so that you don't get database corruption. Wow. Okay. Locking is, is

critical to safety. It's a it's a, it's a safety mechanism. And so you can get around Yeah, and Table Table locking is is something you have to avoid at all costs. And so most of the design of a database, other than performance, your performance is trying to get around some of these things, like locking so

that you don't, so that you don't hamstring yourself. So we have the NF items, you know, NF Items table, but just like NF underscore value, there's also an NF underscore value, excuse me an NF items underscore value that has relationship back to the NF Items table. So those are episode level split blocks, now that you blocked and so in, so what I did was create a new

table. I'm just going through this because I think it's maybe it's beneficial for people to understand how beneficial I'm enjoying it very, I'm enjoying it a lot more than the discussion about fees and splits in the last show. Okay, okay. Good, this is good. Okay, so then, what I did was went and created an NF underscore social interact table. And then that has a foreign key relationship to the NF Items table. So you have an NF NF items and then you have

relationship to NF items underscore social interact. So as party time sees arrays of feed, parses it sees there's a social interact tag in it it up, it inserts a record or updates or record in the NF items underscore social interact table to insert that entry in there. That that is the initial, that's the, that's you're setting up the schema, okay? Then you go in there and change Chain, make the modifications to party times,

like you've got your scheme. And now, then you go and change in the parser to add in the discovery, parsing and database insertion of the social interact tax. So now you're, now you've got things populating in that table in the database, then the final step is to go in there and look and actually change the endpoint. Well, intermediary step, you go and you find the

lower level database call. In the API's sort of low level functions itself, there's a thing called a function called Get get items by feed ID three, that's the name of the function. And that is responsible for pulling for you give it a podcast, index ID feed ID, and it gives you back all of the items that go to all the episodes that belong to it as a structure, then, and that function is referenced by the

API endpoint, which is slash episodes by feed ID. So episodes, episodes by feed ID calls get get items by feed ID three. And that's where it gets us data. So you go in there and change get episodes by feed ID three, to also do a left join on the table on this new table, and F items underscore social interact. Now it's getting the social interact tags back with it along in the same query that it gets the episodes with. So

you're still only doing one database call. Now you've got this extra this extra data that you're going on in the background there. Yeah. Okay, so how does deleting an episode screw it all up? Well, okay, so let me set the use case that people understand. Because I am now in charge of incoming customer support, which is info podcast index.org. And basically, people go delete my show, and that's kind of it or I deleted this episode, you're still hosting it?

Can you notice the the increase in the level of people asking for stuff to be removed? It's I have a lot more than it used to be. I have I don't know why I'm not quite sure. What's going on. I do get a lot of Buzzsprout said to call you. Yes, I get a lot of that. Buzzsprout? What are you telling them like Buzzsprout use it because people will delete it. I think what's happening is, for whatever reason, people are not liking some of their

episodes. The thing some people are moving to different models, maybe subscription model, and they want to delete certain older episodes, and they delete it. And then they and then they you know, for whatever reason, they find out that it still doesn't work. But it's listed in podcast index. And you know, they assume a that we stolen it, you can feel the undertone a lot of this is why are you hosting this? Why is it still there? Why? You know, it's like, they don't know what and I

understand. So we're very cool. But it's it literally is because we have not root because a lot most of these, we won't refresh for you know what, I don't know what the frequency is refreshing most of these feeds, when it's refreshed them. I think it all changes, then it those episodes are removed or maybe not. But that is what seems to have to take place. But that operation seems to be complicated. Isn't it is it is complicated in and I will tell you that it's

complicated mostly by financial constraints. Do we know? We cannot? If if we had the budget to throw lots of money at a huge database instance, I would fix this with power. Okay, of course, with just more power I stop. Okay, what do we need? Oh, no. I mean, like, in order to do this in close to real time, yeah, we would need a very, very big database that we can't afford. I need I know we can't afford it. But I'd like to know, he put

a number on it is $1,000 a month? Is it $10,000 a month? I mean, just whatever you think it might be more or less. I can't put a number on it without doing some research and we do some research on that because that would be a great thing to ask for. Yeah, sure. So you've hurt us. You scale vertical first. And then before you scale horizontal, I mean, you just you just go you make your database bigger. That's the way you Solve problems as

problems of this type. And let me describe to you what I mean by this type. So the the reason that we can't do this in real time, Alexa, what Daniel J. Lewis said, he's like, we just download the feed, and just replace what's already there. That's not the way that's not the way it works. Because you so we have, as I described, we have the NFA Items table that has

about 110 million episodes in it. The, in order to there's about 25 to 35,000 database transactions a minute, currently on average in the in the index, if you and we have 10 aggregators. So we have aggregators, zero through nine, they're all aggregating and inserting data at simultaneously, simultaneously. Yes, so we have, you know, 10 different streams of database connections that are happening.

So peaks, it peaks out maybe 40,000 transactions a minute, typically, at that volume, it doesn't take, but just a few attempts at deleting records out of that size of a table, to where it could potentially lock large portions of the table where and that and when that happens. All the all the if one aggregator does tries to do a large delete, let's just say that it hits a podcast that has 20,000 episodes when it would

there are some in there. This podcast has 20,000 episodes. And let's just say that 1000 of them disappear, because this is some crazy, weird podcast. So you also you're going to delete 1000 records out of this out of the table. If it locks a large portion of the table. All all nine other aggregators then have to halt and wait for it to finish. If if it doesn't finish fast enough, they could time out and just have to restart. I'm super excited by this Congress. I thought I thought it

was going to fall asleep. But I'm really I really this has become very exciting actually to listen to, for a number of reasons. One, doesn't blockchain solve this? Blockchain solves it to noster we're gonna, Nasir can solve all this it goes away overnight. Give us some bitcoin Jack. But Jack Dorsey. The so is this. If you could if you had to start over again and do a different database design? Would that make a difference? Or is this just a fact of life and database?

That's a good question. And I don't know how to really answer it. It's possible that if I had to go back and do this over I may have a may have every a May May as I just don't know, put everything as it is now and put all the episode data in an own and only the episode data in a NoSQL database that that's possible. I still don't know if that's ideal. I would a lot of this stuff takes trial and error to figure out whether or not as it's it's to figure out whether it's stable. Again, I've had

probably no sequel is it's eventually consistent. And that's right. Eventually eventual consistency with something like this is really a problem. You have to have some some guarantees. Is this what those plus guys figured out? What does the what was it plus? What's the name of that company that has a datum? Forget about it. This is really interesting. I'm glad that you that you're laying this out because people have no I mean,

even people who are in the business clearly don't really. I know, Daniel J. Lewis didn't have all the pieces together. This was interesting problem. Yeah. And I think, I think Daniel J. Lewis uses Mongo. So he uses a no SQL database. And this, he's not constrained by schema. But the doubt, like I said, the downside of no sequel is you have a promise of eventual consistency. That's not good enough for for what we're doing. Right? We have to have,

we have to have a guarantee of consistency. And so like he's, he's, he's using he's doing stats. Right? Very different. Very different, very different use case. Okay. I, I would love to know what, I think you should do that. Let's find out what it cost. And let's figure out a way to make that happen. We'll see what it looks me we know kind of our budget, we're not paying ourselves. So this all all goes into the into the systems, but everybody would benefit.

Well, that goes back to sort of the financial question because you have, like, if you think I mean, if you look at what if you look at what we have coming in as income. So here's how, you know, we started this thing saying okay, we want to make sure or that. So what was promised people, we made a promise to people that we're going to have an API that was free forever. And that was the promise. In order to that's all we promised. We promised controversy, we

promised all kinds of stuff. Okay. unwritten with regards to an API web API. And that it was, yes, you're right. We did promise controversial. And so we promised an API that would be free for for anybody's use forever. I think that's the language we use now. And in order to fulfill that promise.

What we did was we said, Okay, we're not we're going to, as soon as we make, as soon as we have more money in income than we're spending in in expenses each month, we're going to keep that we're going to stash that money in the bank for as long as it takes to build up some number x number of years of hosting fees, where if something happened, and one of us got sick, or something happened, and the project got derailed, we would have an X amount of years of runway where even if we had

no income whatsoever, the the API would continue to function. And so in order to make that happen, we have to keep our expenses low enough to where we're still building money. So we're, you know, for if we're putting a few $100 in the bank, after expenses every month, it's going to take, you know, 345 years to build up a decent runway. Well, we don't we don't really we're keeping our right. But we really don't we really don't know yet what it would take to supercharge our database.

We don't we don't but that was the financial thinking that we that we engaged in? Yes. We support a lot of different things, you know, we're still, you know, ln pay, we're still paying a fee amount for that, that keeps a couple of apps running with wallets, which, you know, that may go away over time. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that, that we put into this to make the whole ecosystem work.

Right. And I just want to make that I just think that's important that people understand that we, we have we're, we're running the database, and we're running the API now. But that's not the only concern. We want it we have to do we have to concerns run the database, run the API now. And make sure that the the API can run for years in the future. And so for that reason, we cannot spend all the money that we would take in we have to save some. And that and that means that we have to, even

though we like last month, I think you'd be added up. It was like $2,000. We had $2,000 in income last month. And we had $1,200 of expenses, that we can't spend 2000 Because we get 2000. Because then it one month goes by and we don't have enough income. We're debt we're out. Well, we're out of the game is just a moment, we can thank a few people who have been supporting the index. Yeah. And then we'll come back. And we'll talk about green light for a moment before we wrap it up for

today. Yep. And I wanted to, I wanted to start off with a big thank you to he did this last year as well. Sir anonymous of Dogpatch and Lois LeBeau via who is nice, I don't know who this is, other than he donates every month to no agenda. And it's always through the mail. It's, it's always cash. It's always from literally from a mailbox on the street. And he sent to our Pio box. And and when I saw this, I mean, I know you had the same I sent you a picture. I was like, Oh, man $3,006 all in

cash, with a note for podcasting. 2.0 Thank you to all that are working to keep free speech available to the masses. And so it's not our database money. But wow. humbled by this. I think he did something similar last when we started right. And he did some decent he didn't he sent us a $4,000 in cash last year. Yeah. Yeah. It's always an odd number. He literally sent $2 bills, three $3 bills. So I don't know, I never figured out the numbers.

But thank you very much. So animus with Dogpatch and Lois Bovie. That means so meaningful to us. And that goes right into our into our savings into our bank for the years that we want to keep it running. Yeah, we're doing taxes right now. And we literally had this discussion this morning. It's like, we're you know, we'll just take out what we need to pay the taxes and the stays in the bank. Yes, everyone understands, like, it's a pass through LLC. So money that comes

in literally Dave and I are taxed on it ourselves. So we we only take out that, that we have to pay on our personal income taxes. Right. The IRS treats it as if we made money even though it's still in a bank account that we haven't done yet. If you don't have it and on the note and on the note Yeah, right. Alright. That's huge. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much pressure on me. All right, couple of couple of lit boosts booster grams that came in. We have oh, just help,

although he will be coming in later. We have 5015 sets, from comics through blogger. And he says, Yeah, I mean, we know he'll come in later as he is the delimiter solution to your large database problem is cockroach labs.com/product. Affordable cloud native elastic scale distributed database. Yeah, how much does this cost? I don't know if we're gonna find out, but we need to know. Well, thank you comment your blog and we'll

find out well, all of this stuff will we'll find out. We have 33,369 from blueberry this is all within the lips timeframe of the show. And he has a disparaging comment about twit, which I'm just not going to read. Now that does no need for that. 33,333 from Eric p p Thank you very much. cimp 100% x D D D got him. 100% 36 912 we have Chad F 33 333,003 333 3333. Can I get the JCD you will obey jhingo will obey or you will obey you will obey we have lavished with 6666 incentive

boosts. Thank you, Mike Dell with 25,000. Now we're talking round two blueberries PCPA PC 2.0 tags in progress. CO podcasting he says we have 33,333 from SU pipe pipe CD. I'm not going to type that in my command line loving the pod verse love. Oh, of course. Well, we would love CD. Yeah. From the from the socials. Yeah. We love all the apps. We love all of our apps. Chat F 3333. Again, remember Adam that Na is a comedy show, so it doesn't count as a political

podcast. It's true. It's true. We have more IDs from contracts with 13,579. Our evolution from a stats package to the home of value for value creators starts next week with the integration of podcaster wallet beyond excited Oh, we got that together. You have an API keys. Oh, that's so cool. That was a great on ramp for value for value. And by the way today as of right now, I have the stats on the standby. 11,871 feeds

with value blocks up about 30 from yesterday. It used to be one or two a day now we're at you know 20 or 30 a day new value for value podcasts are very excited about that. Steve Webb he is the OG God caster sir OG God caster with Whoa, a super striper boost 77,777 Whoa, just saying hey, oh, and inviting the PC 2.0 community to join the Lifespring family and reading through the Bible in a year at audio Bible dot link. We'd love to have you join us in our 13th Season go podcasting go God cast.

Does that mean that they've read things read through the Bible? 13 times? Yes, it means yes, yes. 13 Yeah, it does a whole year. And he's done it. Well, he was one of the god casters were very early to understand what was going on with podcasting. So I think Buzzsprout got their start as a God cast or repository. I think they did like I believe it. No, I believe it. I believe it wasn't gonna say Oh, do you remember Lilly and X? who remember the band Lillian x? Well, well, it's interesting

because they haven't. They released 10 albums in their career and they're in the Louisiana Hall of Fame and Songwriters Hall of Fame. And when they first came out their very first video I debuted on headbangers ball, and so they have a new video coming out. And and I'm old now. They're my age, ancient. And they have a new video a new out new video coming out. And they sent me a note and said, Hey,

ma'am, we love what you're doing. And we'd love for you to intro our new video to put in the video reminding people that 35 years ago, you premiered us on headbangers ball. And you know, we'd love to do that with a new video. And are you going to do it? Well, so here's what's interesting. I'm looking at this video. I'm like, I kind of look at is this a Satan band? Or what is it? Until I got all the way through the video? I'm like, Oh, I look them up. Yeah, you know, Christian man, I didn't know

that. And so of course I'm gonna do that too. Yeah, name of the album. Yes. Yeah. So of course we're gonna do that it was just interest thinking that I had no idea that they were a Christian rock band. And you wouldn't know necessarily until you see the video, which is pretty funny. They still they still have humor. They're still gonna say you're gonna you're gonna do this. Yeah, of course. Hey everybody remember me? I'm old. Less hair. That's right 2121 From tone record pod verse.fm is snappy

with this latest update props to Mitch and team. Sir Spencer 6969 Love at the work the board. I love all the work the board and its members have put into the live experience. Live items first birthday is coming up. We are excited to celebrate with Dave on a bowls with buds at the end of the month. More details to come green heart emoji desert. Oh, that's right. We guesting on the guest Nice Nice nice. Let me see tone record sent a short row of ducks

with a testing thank you all for the tests. And I think we're I think that you have everything from there on out. So let's let's thank the people with the booster grams that came in. Well, we got to pay pal. One one singular Pay Pal. Yeah, the one from from our buddy Todd. He says, Hey guys, Todd. See. I want to thank you for all the hard work you're doing here. Let's keep

the features coming. Mike and I are planning what our next round of implementations will be for podcasters missing out on fun migrate to blueberry today. Go podcasting. Oh, nice. Oh, that qualifies. Sakala 20 is blades on the Impala my dog hates that jingle. She thinks that singing shock collar so she always runs away when I play. big baller shot caller. Oh, Daddy, no. We got to 54321 from our buddy Roy. Oh, talking about tennis. We're gonna talk about Roy in his endeavors in a moment for sure.

Yeah, we we will. One of my endeavors is to get right back on the show. So you can talk to us about it. Well, he's not ready. He's got something to talk about. Finally, Jean been 1337 lead booster cast Matic. He says, I don't think removing emails were blowing it Buzzsprout, among other can put the email back in for 24 hours or another small amount of time to facilitate the validation. Yes, right. Yes, we've learned that didn't know it. And

interestingly, we had a support email come in. It's still it's it's still causing support. Increased support actions. Can you remove this? Yeah, do you mind just sending this from from the email address that is in your feed, and I see that you're Buzzsprout you can have that put back into your feed reply comes in, you can click on our E on our webpage and see that it's

the email so people don't want to do it. Yeah. People also think that we're, you know, like, like Amazon or something like, and I can't blame them for for, for thinking that we're as Silicon Valley company, but even so, wow, privileged much. I mean, if people are very rude Todd from Northern Virginia 3333 through breweries, and he says, What did I miss? Milkshake? I pray this is some sort of inside joke. No, it's it is literally a milkshake made of made from beef protein.

It's delicious. And it tastes like hamburger. No, it tastes like chocolate. They it is it is the what does this stuff Alex gage turned you on this didn't he was telling me no, no, no, Dan Benjamin did oh prime is that what this is going to equip? Yes, Prime protein grass fed beef isolate protein powder from equipped foods and you throw it in water. Water mill I put in milk and milk and ice cubes and like some ice cubes, milk and ice cubes. Yeah,

it makes like a slushy. It's good. Like it's like a it tastes like ice cream. Are you still eating like actual beef like the KFC stuff? Okay, good. Yeah, this is my supercharge. This is my super beef charge. Yeah. Yes, the quip. quip is the name of the thing. Coupon Code podcasting. 2.0 G Jean bien again 2222 through cast thematic just talking about where to put Mastodon comments. I'm wondering if Todd could partner with Vivaldi are similar. They're

offering Mastodon accounts to all their users. Possible. Jean began 22 to 22 through bigass demanding he says really enjoyed hearing what Todd and crew were doing. also agree that it would be awesome if some 2.0 features came to overcast. I love that app. I do too. And I'm hoping that the firt I've sort of separately hoping the first thing he implements other than that I think transcripts is always good for accessibility is live because I know that he he does a lot with users

himself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. Hard Hat one a one a one a binary boost through Kira Castro. No note thank you hard hat, chaos. 99 5000 SATs and he says another great episode. Thank you. Thank you. Mere Mortals our buddy Kyron 11111 through fountain he says, I'm so damn pumped. It feels like we've ditched the skis and hijacked a snowmobile. Satchel or Richards for the win ice 100% I think what you meant was absolutely absolutely yes. completely full on.

Build up Prague 1000 SATs through potrayed. He says testing testing had no idea pod friend is abandoned. Looks like it's still working. I don't think he's rewriting. It still works very well actually. Bill Prague again 1000 says stupid friend. He says there is a protocol that you use for some time now that has private public keys you can use to log into 100 plus apps and all your followers are there. All your comments are also there. Cross app comments.

This news was boost was made possible. Thanks to Brian and Hi. Bye. Not letting me boost over 1000 need to spin those sets. It must be so I know how this feels when you when you have a technology that's been around for a long time and it works and then people come along with something called noster and just pisses you off. I feel you Brian I feel Yeah. Bill Prague again. 1003 potrayed he says looks like I have to boost 10 times 1000 SATs Pedialyte pod friends on the

browser. It was playing video, but he's given the ode to pod friend but pod friends still lives man. Yeah, it's not that okay. Rob Suzuki through fountain 2421. He says thanks for your value to the Podcast Movement. Greetings from Dominican Republic. No Hello, Dominican Republic. 3000 from forest K Farscape. Ian through fountain no note CASP eland 3690. Through fountain he says I have a question about the splits. I was happy atmosphere. How do you calculate?

I was happily streaming 17 sets a minute. I think calculate the first split percentage goes to the highest percent. Oh god. No, no, no. Don't take me there. Don't take. Don't take me down that road. No. Are you bending this question? No, I'm not banning, of course. I think I think calculate the first split percentage goes to the highest percentage. And then calculating down. Streaming less

than one set a minute is not a thing. So let's see. I'm gonna show 22 sets a minute pop up. Don't mind the small difference. Oh, I'm so lost. CASS Cass sent me an email. I can't do it. It's too much. I have a small complaint. Before I forget. Yeah. You know, I add a lot of podcasts manually for people who don't see the Add button. Yeah, the one that's at the top of the way, the one that says Add? Yes. Can we change the sunflowers? Why I keep getting

sunflowers in the caption? It's always the sunflowers. I don't trust it. I need something else. What do I get sunflowers all the time. I get trumpets. I do every time I'll trade trumpets for sunflowers for a day. Just for a day. clear your cookies. Over your cookies. Okay. All right. Thank you. You're becoming a help desk guy. I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm putting so JD when someone says my episodes have been updated. I'm gonna say clear your cookies.

Reboot rebooting. This is where we're turning you into a helpdesk. Feeling good about it. Yes. Every time when you get off a helpdesk call. You have to turn around a bitch to your co workers about how stupid the person was. Like you're like, Oh, you mean the Add button at the top? It was hard to spot. Okay, Satoshi stream 5552. Through fountain This is Benjamin at FOSDEM was good. Yes. Benjamin Bellamy. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we forgot to talk about that. Good job, Benjamin.

Yeah, great slideshow. Oh, awesome. Like, chop and dropped and killed his numbers right after the show. Love or hate the way he goes. This is not a podcast. This is a podcast like a big RSS feed code. Yeah, Victoria needs to see that so she understands what's happening. Yeah. Who is the fountain? He says due to precision issues. We should oh wait, this is a four. Okay, this is a multi Porter.

Okay, here we go. I think I got it here. Date all these are 10 1000s ask Dave seem to suggest that we don't require splits to add up to a 100 because it's easy to make mistakes and produce a different total amount. Although I agree with this requirement shouldn't exist. I don't find this rationale convincing. Validation can be performed on the host side is that a mentioned and the player side have a much better reason in my mind is the same as why companies don't limit the

number of shares to a 100. It would limit the maximum number of shareholders and the fractions they can own. Okay for us, and due to precision issues, we should always prefer integers to decimal numbers in financial software. That's why stripe API uses cents instead of dollars. For example, finally, as a math teacher, oh, W Dawson math teacher. I feel Yeah, and this

makes me terrified for him to listen to the show. Finally, as math teacher I feel the most intuitive way of explaining splits to newcomers is by thinking of them as ratios, the concept familiar to most as it is found in many recipes. A eg if Alice's Bob's and Charlie splits are four, two and three respectively. They will share the incoming SATs in the ratios of four to four to two to three. That is the way that a math

teacher would explain it. You're right. And just that's more confusing to me than percentages. man All right. Let me let me save you I'm gonna save you okay. Yeah. Todd Cochran boosts 50,000 in my wallet on found with a debit card. So simple. Good podcasting. Oh. A bit. You almost fell off the cliff. Okay, I had to save you. Well, it's almost like if a split was traveling on a train at 17 cents per minute. And the ratios to distress. Thank you, Nathan. Yeah, good

line. And thank you, Debbie. Does I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't know. It's just confused. Tone wrecker. 22 to 22 through BOD verse he says, while it reloaded slinging Sass with abandoned a boosting haiku. I love swinging SATs. Thank you. That was a haiku did you get Yes, of course. I got the Haiku. Haiku. That's, that's our first booster coup. This dequeue Bucha cool. I like it. Borlaug. 25,000 SATs through the pod verse he says I can't thank you enough for all the

work that you've you're doing for this project. This is the only board meeting I look forward to each week me but ditto Yeah, yeah, that's where I ended on the on the boost and where's comic strip blogger? Bloggers right here. Oh, you already did him. Okay. No, no, no, I didn't do I did the I did his his new one but not the not the regular the regular Okay. Comic Strip blogger 30 3015. Dear David, Adam, the AI dot cooking podcast present obedience is in acknowledgment

to your safeguarding of free speech. At don't even know what this word is. And now you're using words that now you know more English than I do. The AI cooking podcast, President OBC insists in acknowledgment to your safeguarding your free speech, offering our fealty in the form of the part on the back sets we implore you to keep abreast of the singularity by downloading our fortnightly show the constant colloquy upon the

state of human hood. Podcasting is the medium of the people congenially Yours, Gregory Forman yo CSV Thank you. Thank you comics for blogger I tried to do like a The Twilight Zone got was that was that was that coming through a little bit?

It would need a little more. Comic Strip blogger just a comic stripper or a blogger now in AI welcome li D to the just came in 5000 from anonymous and Bitcoin boost your favorite podcasters and pod verse plus Alby hashtag Foss and Dred Scott who just left the chat room live boosting for boost boost Can I get a 100% horn please with 222,222 SAS we got it all 20 is Blaze only Impala no one understands exactly how Dred Scott does it but he does it

and will poor guy he said they may posted with his like Cisco switch meltdown of epic proportions like it's his job. Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah, we know it was a bad one. It was a bad one. Yeah. Thank you very much boosters we got some monthlies. We do we have Joseph maraca $5 Jeremy new $5 Cameron Rose $25 Lauren ball $24.20 Basil Phillips $25 pod verse LLC. $50 Christopher Hora Baraka $10 In Mitch downy Tinder.

Thank you all very much the value for value if you'd like to learn more about that concept value for number four value dot info. This is The whole project is value for value just heard where our money goes, what we do with it, what we do with your money to make the project run, and how it benefits everybody. If you'd like to learn more, if you'd like to actually support us go to podcast index.org down at the bottom is a big red donate button you can use that to send us Fiat fun coupons.

Also, we have a on chain, Bitcoin spot there and note we have nothing came in although people wanted it so badly. Hey, man, you should ever on chain Bitcoin, we need to scan a QR code to send you Bitcoin man pretty much knew. So the only time people ever use it is to make sure that it gives you that it works. Scott Trump's got basically we'll test it to make sure it's being used. But of course, you can get any of the modern apps at new podcast apps.com and use that to boost us. And of course,

you want to see that it has value for value. But use any of them really, there's so many different. It's also personal, so many different apps. But that is the preferred way. Of course, you can always do it through PayPal, thank you very much for supporting podcasting 2.0, the podcast, which is really the gateway into the whole project. And now let's talk about ROI. And, yeah, so, I mean, I can't, he lived he literally came in almost on time. He said six

months. And it's just been seven or seven and a half months, but almost two that he said it and here he is with the what is it the breeze SDK. SDK. And I'm hoping to have more He's He's helping me and Alex to get up and running with it so that we can mess around with it. Hoping to get it to get my hands dirty with it. The one things I say initially I don't I've read it. I've looked at the at the sort of structure the way everything's laid out. If I

understand it correctly, it's extremely easy. Rust is a first class citizen which alike? Can you explain what it is? It looks like exactly what we thought it would be, which is a green light, the green light service on the back end, and breeze providing the liquidity and everything on the front end. And the SDK looks like a way a set of libraries to interface your app with that service. And so you basically just, you initialize it with a with a key and call and basically start

start it start the what is what is I guess? I don't know if there's a real node or virtual node? I'm not sure. Essentially, then you just you get back what looks like a handle that you can then just do things with. And you still haven't told us what it is. I mean, it's an SDK. I know but what software development kit No, I understand but I know I just want to hear is it like a wallet?

No, yeah, well, he says that it's not a wallet, but it looks like you I mean, you you own the key the for it looks like the first thing you do. When I was looking at it earlier, the first thing you do is initialize your your kind of using these terms backup. Okay, there's a lightning node let's just call I'm gonna call it a virtual lightning node that you can use to send and receive lightning payments. I think that's fair as fair. As fair to me. Roy has probably been like no y'all are idiots.

Well, I mean, what what does it replace? It replaces centralized custody wallets? Yes, it would have replaced something like ln PE L B. It will replace the the the necessity to keep your wallet to call and you're not calling you're not custodian you're not you're in your wallet is not custodial. You own it the the infrastructure that your wallet resides on and that the liquidity travels through that is that that is owned by somebody that service right the liquidity that so it basically is taken

away. Okay, for me, it would be great because I know that anything that comes in if I had that as my I could replace my Umbro wallet that I used to receive booster grams with this. And the benefit is it would always work theoretically. And but no one can can just say oh curry that's it. We're done because I own the keys to it and I can I also move it somewhere else if I want, because I have the keys, right you have the keys, and yeah, it's your it's your keys,

your coin. So you can, you can use their infrastructure without risking having anything ever taken away from you other than the service itself. And then if that happens, you just move into, so you move it to your umbrella, right. And because it's an SDK, you can put it into your mobile app, as a developer, and you can even send but also receive Bitcoin on

your mobile app. Because without necessarily having your mobile app open in the foreground, all that stuff, I think of, I kind of think of it like running, running your stuff on AWS, and all of your stuff is encrypted, and only you have the keys. And if some, if one day, AWS decides to kick you off their service, well, then that's fine. You just go over here and write all your stuff with and take all your stuff.

And it's, they didn't take your stuff away. They just said, you know, we're not going to run it. But you can also if I wanted to have a vape service, I could have that that SDK built into the software of my vape. And every single time I hit the vape, he could send a payment. Do this yes, this is the stuff I think of that. That's how I think at night. Wow. Wouldn't it be cool if we could vape as a service? Mm hmm. Well, we've already got the feed your sheep thinks. This makes a

lot of a lot. I didn't see feed your sheep on loan Roy's article. And in his idea starter section, like and a little bit, I have the article in the show notes. It's, it's really cool. We clearly need we need ROI. We need ROI to talk to us ROI come talk to us as soon as possible, because this is a game changer now is all because I saw you were looking at it as all work as implicit functioning now, is it a startup, a test project, a demo project. And I was going to

get around and play with it. And I went in I couldn't find the packages were not in the repos like public repos for the for, for anything. And he said for now that you have to build it off the off the GitHub source, so that's fine. But then he's he's going to do what he needs to do to give me and Alex access to the green light. That is a two parter, it looks like if I understand it correctly, as a two parter, you have the breeze SDK code itself. But then you need a green light library to

put with it. But the green light code is not open source yet it's going to be, but they haven't released it yet. So they're the so he needs to give us access to the green light code. So that we can actually build the SDK. So he's gonna, he's, he's gonna give us access to that code, then I'll build it. I'll make some test projects with it. And I'll be able to speak more intelligently about it. Once that happens. It looks cool, though. Very cool.

I'm excited about it. I'm very excited. I mean, something we've been needing for a long time in this space, in lots of space, and we can be in anything. I mean, that's what I like about the SDK, put into a vending machine, put it into whatever wherever you want it. That's that's a cool system. One thing I like about the lightning ecosystem is the in the way that is evolving, is that in I think, maybe the lightning, the LDK thing was the first person, the first group to

kind of embrace this idea. Is that is you're, you're you're taking, you're taking a node, and then you're splitting it into its component parts. And you're saying, okay, these are all the different things that when brought together constituent constitute what a node is, but you blow them apart, and you can say, Okay, I'll do this part over here, this part over here, I'm going to replace this with a with a different database, I'm going to use this as an LSP. It's like

you, you can mix and match these component parts. And what you end up with is still a functional node, right? But it's just kind of like, it's like deconstructed, and you're running it in different ways. And I think they're taking I think what breezes done is they're taking advantage of this concept of deconstructed node. And they're putting in there, they're using that as a service provider model, right? So you

still get all the benefits of running your own node? Well, technically, not all because you, you know, you could be, you know, you could be kicked off or whatever. I mean, if they don't want to host you, but you're getting most of the benefits of running your own node, the privacy the, excuse me, the key key management. Yeah. The security of funds, you know, the benefit of having an always on up like, like an email service provider versus hosting your own email.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. You mean 100%? No, I mean, And then unconditional unconditionally. All the way. Right on. Exhausted. Oh my brother is that I gotta get you out of here with two hours on the nose two hours on the nose. No. Well, hoping you feel even better hoping the beef milk makes the beef milkshakes do their business. I get I get I always feel better after the show. I get an adrenaline pump during the show. All right, thank you very much chat room. Thanks, everyone who

was hanging out with us. Let Dave Brother Love you. We'll talk to her next week. All right, man. See, okay. Podcasting. 2.0 the board meeting on the books. We'll be back in seven days from now to tell you all that's going on come back for podcasting 2.0 You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org For more information