James Bishop [00:00:05]:
Dear listeners, we are gathered here today to reflect on a podcast podcast that is no longer with us, life and performance. The podcast explored pod balancing peak athletic performance with a healthy lifestyle. Haunting us today are its hosts, Andrew Steele and Greg Rutherford, both former Olympic athletes. Launched in 2016, Andrew and Greg released 2 episodes within a month before the show was left to perish. On this episode, we'll learn what caused the Life and Performance podcast to be yet another headstone in the podcast graveyard. We'll celebrate the highs, lament the lows, and discuss whether it should lay to rest forever or be brought back to life. From one fine play, this is Podcast Graveyard. Welcome to this service.
James Bishop [00:01:10]:
I'm your host, James Bishop, and and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Have you ever felt overwhelmed in the vast shadowy web of the creator glimey. Like a phantom drifting through countless tools, products, and websites, endlessly seeking out ways to bring your podcast to life. Hours become days in this relentless quest, and time continues to run out.
James Bishop [00:02:10]:
But we found a way of breaking you out of this curse. Deep within our creative lair at OneFinePlay, we've crafted a blessed cutie, a treasure trove where thousands of enchanted products and services for creators are gathered waiting to end your eternal search. Engage with fellow creators, comment, upvote your favorite listings, and save the most bewitching finds to your personal chord, and here's the spellbinding twist. The directory will cost you nothing. It's entirely free to use. So brave souls, break the curse us and step forth from the shadows. Sign up at onefineplay.com/directory and find the best creative services and products today, all completely free. Let's begin proceedings.
James Bishop [00:03:01]:
Gents, thanks for joining me today. I think we should start the show with something you didn't do, which is introducing yourselves. At the beginning of your podcast, you never say who you are.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:10]:
Do we not?
James Bishop [00:03:11]:
Absolutely not. It just starts. You just start talking to each other.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:14]:
Because I feel like we do it during the night.
Andrew Steele [00:03:16]:
We're we're we're unorthodox in that way.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:18]:
As it goes on, we then try and things, don't we? So happy.
James Bishop [00:03:20]:
You don't mention it's it's amazing. It's amazing piece of work. You just start talking to each other. You get started, and I love that, like, we're just gonna start thing.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:27]:
Yeah.
James Bishop [00:03:28]:
You mentioned Greg's name, but his first name, and you don't get mentioned at all in the 1st episode. I Just supposed to know who you are.
Andrew Steele [00:03:36]:
No. No.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:36]:
No. No. During that 1st episode, we most certainly do get to the point where we explain
James Bishop [00:03:40]:
You talk about your accolades Yeah.
Andrew Steele [00:03:41]:
We go and say, I'm Greg. Go and do this. I'm Andrew. That's Good point. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:03:46]:
Gents, thanks for haunting the show today.
Andrew Steele [00:03:48]:
Pleasure. Thank
Greg Rutherford [00:03:48]:
you for having us.
Andrew Steele [00:03:49]:
Yes. Excellent.
James Bishop [00:03:50]:
You're welcome. So let's Kick off with something you didn't do in your own podcast, which is introducing who you are.
Greg Rutherford [00:03:56]:
I still can't believe you didn't think that.
Andrew Steele [00:03:57]:
I know. Well, over to you to start the start the gravy.
Greg Rutherford [00:04:02]:
Well, actually, a different one, isn't it? I know something that's no longer the athlete that I once was. So I'm now Greg Rutherford's, sports presenter, if you like, and Person that lurks on social media. That's, I guess, the best way to describe that.
Andrew Steele [00:04:15]:
Yeah. And, alongside the social media lurker, I'm Andrew. I'm, yes, used to be an Olympic athlete as well. And, in the last 9 years, I've become a bit of a kind of start up tech character, building a couple of, businesses in the kind of health technology space, and, sort of intersecting that with my sporting background as well.
James Bishop [00:04:38]:
That is the most understated way of saying giants of British athletics over the last 15 years.
Andrew Steele [00:04:45]:
I think Greg can definitely say that. I'm very uncomfortable.
Greg Rutherford [00:04:48]:
Yeah. I don't know.
Andrew Steele [00:04:49]:
I don't know about chatting about it today.
James Bishop [00:04:51]:
So let's dive straight into the podcast before we go off on a tangent straight away. Con this podcast, it's 2016. You're, at that point, doing slightly different things. Greg, you're in full you were in full time training?
Greg Rutherford [00:05:03]:
Yeah. I was getting ready. When we recorded that, I was getting ready. I was actually actually trying to remember, sir, exactly when we recorded
Andrew Steele [00:05:08]:
We were in Arizona in 2016, wasn't it?
Greg Rutherford [00:05:10]:
So it was it was before really the season that kicked So it was at the back end of probably my best ever season 2015, and I was getting ready for the Rio Olympics in 2016. So, Athletically, it was like a very, very big time in my life. So I was trying to retain my title, depending obviously from, 2012. And Andrew was con was still
Andrew Steele [00:05:31]:
I was still training I was still just about clinging on to the the last gasps of talent in my athletic career, And I was also your manager. You was. Yes. Of course. I was Greg's, yeah, Greg's manager and agent as well at the same time.
James Bishop [00:05:44]:
I was gonna ask, How do you, like, know each other? Mhmm. The like, athletics training camps, they play once together?
Greg Rutherford [00:05:50]:
Yeah. Well, yeah. So we we met on a flight to Australia. Really, like, quite Right. Interesting.
Andrew Steele [00:05:55]:
2006, 10 years pre to the podcast.
Greg Rutherford [00:05:57]:
Going to, Melbourne for, yeah, for Commonwealth Games. And we sat on a flight, and then we Lived in a an apartment together on the Gold Coast in Australia for what was that?
Andrew Steele [00:06:06]:
Couple months ago, something like that. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:06:09]:
And and funny enough, I and I always tell Andrew I always thought Andrew really disliked when we first met. And I was quite quite, like, overly excitable child, basically. And and I also Andrew is just this really, Sort of very intelligent, understands the world far more. And I always thought you just found me annoying, basically, like an annoying little brother in a way. And then it quickly developed into, A friendship that we've now had that's been incredibly strong for the last well, pretty much from there, really. So for Amazing. How How long has
James Bishop [00:06:38]:
it been now, Alex?
Andrew Steele [00:06:38]:
Well, yes. It's almost almost 17 years. It's years.
Greg Rutherford [00:06:40]:
Yeah. It's been a long time. So for example, obviously, closeness is where Andrew's My best bet at my wedding that's coming up, I was, his godparents to each other's children, things like that. So it's to that level and and effectively Know everybody well, know each other's, sorry, deepest, darkest secrets most
Andrew Steele [00:06:56]:
of the time. So,
Greg Rutherford [00:06:56]:
yeah, there's
Andrew Steele [00:06:57]:
not really many
James Bishop [00:06:57]:
deep and dark secrets, but it's
Greg Rutherford [00:06:59]:
at that level.
James Bishop [00:07:01]:
Amazing. So you're in Arizona in 2016. Yeah. Talk me through how you come to think, I know, let's record a podcast.
Andrew Steele [00:07:11]:
Okay. Let me we'd come up with this concept of, like, the balance between life and performance. Right? So We'd been a little bit obsessed with this because what tends to happen, you're on a if you're on a you're on a major championship in sort of, you know, in in the athletics team or any sports and everything you're traveling for the reason of performing, you know, a a a sort of niche physical task at a certain time and hopefully being better than other people in the world at doing that. And, so everyone gets obsessed with this and gets this kind of tunnel vision and these blinkers on around doing that. And what often often happens is sports people can say they've traveled the world and they've done lots of things, but actually they haven't done anything at all. They've gone, and no one's booked someone else has booked their flight for them, so I also booked their transport for them. They've been transported directly from the airport to the hotel. They've brought their PlayStation with them so they can stay in the hotel and not tie themselves out, not walk too much, not have to worry about the the local food and giving them a, you know, a a a bit of a bellyache before the race or something.
Andrew Steele [00:08:10]:
And, basically, they kind of, like, float through this, you know, unbelievably, unaccessible experience of being an elite sportsperson Without actually taking anything from it other than hopefully winning their competition. And then if they don't win, which is completely out of their control, Then they didn't get anything from it at all. Right? And so we used to get frustrated with this. We'd go to these championships and we'd be in, yeah, in Australia or wherever we'd be in, you know, in Far east, all over random small towns in Europe, all over the place. And we had this sort of, you know, ethos that we needed to make sure we actually We went out, and we got a coffee somewhere, and we did something, and we you know, at a local restaurants, and we didn't completely put everything onto The performance.
Greg Rutherford [00:08:54]:
I think what also made us relatively obsessed with this idea was the fact that others looked at the way me and Andrew were and what we were doing. And, actually, Harrison contempt a little bit, and it was just a bit like, why enough are they doing that? They they shouldn't be doing this. It's it's sort of or they're or sort of A sort of shy mock in a way.
Andrew Steele [00:09:11]:
Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:09:11]:
It was really weird.
Andrew Steele [00:09:12]:
Like, it was It wasn't the operating mode for them.
Greg Rutherford [00:09:14]:
No. No. They sort of looked down on the fact that we wanted to go out and and visit things. It was a really weird Yeah. Dynamic between other athletes. And, actually, a lot of the other athletes that weren't doing what we were doing actually weren't doing that well either.
Andrew Steele [00:09:26]:
Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:09:26]:
And that was, I think, part of where we realized, actually, what we do obviously works for us, but, actually, there's something for the wider audience and and more people to To try and grasp In everyday life. Yeah.
Andrew Steele [00:09:38]:
So let me summarize I think what the hypothesis was. That that in normal life you accept you need a work life balance to be happy Can do well as a human being and in sporting performance that gets lost. Everyone says, you're all in. You've gotta be dedicated. You gotta do everything. And actually, You can't possibly do that. So you need this balance between your normal life and your performance life, and we think and still do To this day, I think that's a worthwhile hypothesis that sports people and people in the sport need to take on board to say, yes, you need to do All the right things to be a performer. Ultimately, you also need balance, and you need to be able to experience something else because not only will it help you feel better, but it'll probably help you compete better.
James Bishop [00:10:17]:
And why a podcast?
Greg Rutherford [00:10:19]:
Oh, I
Andrew Steele [00:10:19]:
don't know, We just thought it would cool. Well, I think we we I think we have
Greg Rutherford [00:10:22]:
a we have a record of
Andrew Steele [00:10:23]:
that. Yeah. Yeah. We had
Greg Rutherford [00:10:24]:
a bit of time, I guess, didn't we? Because there was a thing back then. Well, I didn't know
Andrew Steele [00:10:29]:
I was busy negotiate I was busy negotiating your Strictly deal. You were. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. But, We we on the training camp. We're in Arizona.
Andrew Steele [00:10:37]:
We we, you know, we used to train in we train at sort of 10 AM until sort of 1, and then we're free. Right? So, yeah.
James Bishop [00:10:43]:
There's lots of time as an athlete that -Yeah. -Especially in a training camp. Like, a
Andrew Steele [00:10:48]:
lot of downtime. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:10:49]:
Often, you know, resting is the misunderstood extra discipline, but resting involves, You know, there's only a certain amount of watching teller you
Greg Rutherford [00:10:56]:
can do,
Andrew Steele [00:10:57]:
so you're like,
James Bishop [00:10:57]:
now we're gonna keep ourselves entertained. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:10:59]:
And the idea of resting within sport is completely sort of Not again how people see it. Right? So it's not just sitting down doing absolutely nothing. A rest day, which we touch on, I think, quite a lot in the in in the pod and our thought process Yeah. Is doing things.
Andrew Steele [00:11:13]:
Yeah. It's like
Greg Rutherford [00:11:14]:
it's it's not going it's not going for a marathon, of course. But, I mean, it's seeing the world and enriching yourself in a way That is still rest because fundamentally you're not doing the thing that you'd be doing in training. Right? So it is it is rest still for you. Parasympathetic. Exactly. Parasympathetic.
Andrew Steele [00:11:28]:
Parasympathetic. A famous, Old coach would would describe it.
James Bishop [00:11:32]:
Yeah. You listened to any podcasts when you thought about making a podcast?
Greg Rutherford [00:11:36]:
I I I feel like you guys I
Andrew Steele [00:11:38]:
had listened to a couple, but I feel like that was a I mean, 2016 wasn't early days of podcasting, but it certainly was a different industry than it is now in terms of depth of content out there. I think, I I definitely had listened to a couple. I'm trying to think why you listened to those.
Greg Rutherford [00:11:53]:
Oh, didn't we? We sort of checked first to see if there's anything along those lines. Yeah. And there was nothing that we could see. And and I had a a just before we started today, I had a quick flick to see what is out there. I mean, you have the performance podcast and things like that. But the I still I still actually don't think there's there's much that similar to it really. It's
Andrew Steele [00:12:12]:
very niche. Question is is and is the audience also So niche. Yeah. Yeah. The audience is just me and you. Maybe other some mid level international athletes. Maybe. Yeah.
Andrew Steele [00:12:22]:
Yeah. That's it.
James Bishop [00:12:23]:
I mean, there are a few things, and we'll get onto that came across in the podcast but 2 of them are that your chemistry is really strong. You hear that from the outset. And then the second thing is, and I think it's what got the better of you, really, is you had so much to offer. There's so much to say. Yeah. It's just like this. Yeah. Right? And you're like That's
Greg Rutherford [00:12:40]:
what I re that's what I noticed when we listened to it, actually.
James Bishop [00:12:42]:
Clear. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:12:42]:
That was that was one of the
Andrew Steele [00:12:43]:
things I was there going.
James Bishop [00:12:44]:
Someone you you needed, like, someone to just moderate your brain and go
Greg Rutherford [00:12:48]:
to some sort.
James Bishop [00:12:49]:
Yeah. Continue talking about that one point. Just even if it's just 1 more sentence, it'd be great.
Andrew Steele [00:12:54]:
That you
Greg Rutherford [00:12:54]:
know what? And it is interesting because so since recording a more recent podcast I mean, this year, Which we've we've stopped for now, just under a limited runoff. And listening back to that one, it it it really is Fascinating how a but it's I think that's how we are. That's Yeah. It is how we are. Conversations. We we
Andrew Steele [00:13:13]:
But it's a stream of consciousness thing, really, wasn't it, as opposed to there was no planning or
James Bishop [00:13:17]:
-There are some incredible - to be
Andrew Steele [00:13:18]:
in this, yeah.
James Bishop [00:13:19]:
You know, and there are some incredible moments in it that I really like, And components of the show that would set you up for success. So, one is co hosting a show is really difficult, right? I put my hands up that we've tried and failed on a number of occasions to make a co hosted show. The main reason is you need to understand the character that you play in the duo. So, a lot of the time when you hear a co hosted show, they're both trying to do the same job. Really, you need one to be like if you think, like, Ant and Dec as an easy example, like, They have clear characters. Right? Often in a podcast, they're both trying to ask the question. Or one doesn't understand that they need to be the question asker, and the other needs to be the voice of the listener. Well, one needs to be the serious person and one needs to be the funny person.
James Bishop [00:14:04]:
By the nature of your long standing relationship, you already have characters That also worked really well for the show. So, like, Andrew tends if even if you listen to the show, like, you find out who you are because you're a bit self deprecating about you and you put him on a pedestal. That's just your natural default.
Greg Rutherford [00:14:20]:
Doesn't do
Andrew Steele [00:14:20]:
that anymore. Does it?
James Bishop [00:14:21]:
What? Life has changed. Your natural default state in the show. Like, it kinda works it Kinda works well because you lead if you strip back, you know, what's going on, you lead with the integrity of the conversation, of the life and performance bit, and you kind of navigate the way through the conversation. So there are the right components in there. Yeah. Just this overload of ideas.
Andrew Steele [00:14:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. So much overload,
James Bishop [00:14:45]:
Let's talk about time and money. Yeah. How long do you think you spent making this podcast?
Andrew Steele [00:14:52]:
About well, probably about
James Bishop [00:14:54]:
Probably longer than I think you spent.
Andrew Steele [00:14:55]:
No. I don't know. I think less. Less. Almost just about the amount of minutes it lasted. Well, I just
Greg Rutherford [00:15:01]:
just to add Yeah. I did zero editing in any way, shape, or four.
James Bishop [00:15:05]:
The second one's got editing in it though. The second one's got music.
Greg Rutherford [00:15:09]:
Oh, yes. Andrew. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:15:10]:
But the first one's just you talking and I love the way it's like, okay, we're just gonna start. By the second one, you then do an intro, and then there's some music Mhmm. And then the intro of the guest Yeah. And then the chaos.
Andrew Steele [00:15:20]:
So, yeah, so I did I did I
Greg Rutherford [00:15:21]:
love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Andrew Steele [00:15:22]:
The chaos. The king is. I did all the odyssey. So, basically, I think planning wise, we we bought a microphone and we had a quick session with a whiteboard before we pressed record on episode 1. We didn't know what episode 2 was gonna be at the time, so we hadn't done anything past that. And then I did the editing and the various, you know, Registering with Apple and put putting it out there and stuff. And I had a piece of instrumental piece of music which formed the intro, which I already had made previously, so Didn't have to handle any licensing agreements or anything like that. And, yeah.
Andrew Steele [00:15:54]:
So very little time, actually, thankfully. I think our mental time in getting excited about what it could have been was was quite significant. Very. Yeah. We probably spoke about it at great length.
James Bishop [00:16:06]:
Con What are obstacles? Like, you know, you come from sporting backgrounds, you understand the challenges of overcoming obstacles to get to where you wanna get to. What obstacles did you find in this podcast making process?
Andrew Steele [00:16:20]:
I'd I just I would probably say, there was just self discipline as in, you know, We and in fact, I think I remember when I first spoke to you, James, you know, we talked about you gotta make sure something isn't just a conversation between friends and hope that other people find And, and that's exactly the the flaw that we do. We never we didn't think about this from a actually, not in even in a professional way. We just really wanted to do it, Speak about something, and then we thought, oh, that would be another thing we could speak about, for episode 2. And that's why there was no consistency, so we never planned it professionally. We didn't think about the story arc in the episode and what we actually wanted to get across. We just started. And, and therefore, we never We never got to episode 3 because it was so ad hoc and so sort of unplanned that we hadn't I guess, we hadn't we haven't put the momentum behind it to do so.
Greg Rutherford [00:17:10]:
Yeah. And the difference, And it was difficult, wasn't it, from the point of view of lives were becoming so busy. And because we didn't really put anything behind it as such, it was a case of If you were coming up to my house Yeah. Could we do something? And then often, it wouldn't. And you you you were painfully business busy, sorry, with Setting up the business doing a bit, and I was often in America.
Andrew Steele [00:17:28]:
Well, I also think at the time, you were in Strictly.
Greg Rutherford [00:17:32]:
Yes. I was in the finish 16th? No. He just finished. He just finished. Yeah. Still an absolutely manic time. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:17:37]:
And it
Greg Rutherford [00:17:37]:
and it was a case of we we we genuinely believed in it, but We just couldn't give it the time, I don't think either. And it was just marrying things. And, of course, then we decided after the first one that we wanted to Get guests in. We we we sort of thought we'll have so much just us talking about a topic again, but we'll try and get some guests in. And it just trying to arrange Any of it? It just became now. Impossible, didn't it?
Andrew Steele [00:18:00]:
Yeah. And we also had no no inherent knowledge of how these things go.
Greg Rutherford [00:18:03]:
Exactly. Yeah. So weirdly, I feel like you might have got
Andrew Steele [00:18:05]:
that into the pod.
James Bishop [00:18:07]:
Con What would you say your biggest learnings from the whole thing were that you've taken into, like, making content moving forward? Greg, you make quite a lot of social content now. You manage a reputation. Andrew, you do it from a business perspective or that, you know, is involved. There must be things that you took from that experience.
Greg Rutherford [00:18:27]:
Well, for Susie that will probably listen to this by the half, She does an awful lot of my content creation, so, I I will have to add that in first. But, yeah, obviously, I guess the bulk of what I do nowadays is online based Content and stuff. I
James Bishop [00:18:43]:
I guess as well, now you've made a podcast series and had a with a commissioner and a producer and seen what goes into it. Probably think, oh, that's a bit different.
Greg Rutherford [00:18:53]:
No. Well, do you know what? Actually yeah. I Well, okay.
James Bishop [00:18:56]:
Look. If you not a surprise, is it really? Like, if you've achieved an elite level in sport, you know what goes into doing something well.
Greg Rutherford [00:19:02]:
Yeah. I mean, look. If we if, of course, if we'd had the backing that I had with When I was making the Eurosport podcast, then it probably would have carried on going, of course, because you were taking away the onus on us to to actually get things done, which was part of the difficulty with the The level of, well, things that we had on, basically. I don't know what I've learned. I don't know what I've learned. I don't know what I've learned. It's been told that I just sort of keep it. Look, I I I I'll speak for myself very quickly as well.
Greg Rutherford [00:19:25]:
What I've always said about myself going forward and when I moved from sport into media was that I wanted to always just be me as I am. I was never media trade. Never did any of that. So I'd just go for it. And I always try and keep that in every aspect of my life. So if I'm not meant to do it, It will show because nobody would want me to do it for them. So I think maybe I've completely blinkered myself, carried on going head first. But If we were to restart the the pod, then it would definitely be different.
Greg Rutherford [00:19:55]:
It would be different from the point of view. It wouldn't be us meeting at my house In the gym, which is now been stripped out, ready to be
James Bishop [00:20:02]:
redone, with a cover
Greg Rutherford [00:20:03]:
over it. Mhmm. That those sorts of things. But, again, when you're testing the waters, you I I Maybe we didn't wanna commit too much, did we? That that was it.
Andrew Steele [00:20:11]:
I I think, yeah, I think if I look back, I think if I was to learn from it now, I'd say it's about Great, yeah, great media and great content. Yeah. Looks like it's effortless, but it knee it isn't, and it it needs to be done deliberately. And, And I think that's what I would say is we we didn't do this in a deliberate manner because we didn't feel the need to. It was a it was a sort of spur of the moment thing we wanted to do. A little bit like I remember reading an interview with Lauryn Hill. So when she wrote her first the the albums for miseducation the songs for miseducation and Lauryn Hill Before the fousies were big, and she just wanted to be cool in the 500 people that lived on her block. And it was just for them, and that was it.
Andrew Steele [00:20:49]:
And we did this podcast really because it was just for us. Like, It was only for our own purpose. If you want this to have traction long term, you need to be very deliberate about this. Do the normal professional things or who your audience, What's what are you gonna do in episode 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10? When's it gonna end? How's it gonna continue? What are all those conditions that we've learned now since, I think. And, Scrubbaums, by
Greg Rutherford [00:21:09]:
the way, that's a way better idea than what I'd like. That's really No.
James Bishop [00:21:11]:
I think they're both They're both they're both
Andrew Steele [00:21:13]:
they're both set tell the same story, I think. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:21:15]:
You know, there's a couple of things that con We should highlight. 1 is that it was 2016 not 2022. Everything has changed. Yeah. It's way harder. Yeah. Another is that that show concept is brilliant Today, just as much as it was then, like, if we were to bring it back, you've got the essence of a great show. We've talked just before we pressed record about, You know, who it's for and its target audience and how it would work.
James Bishop [00:21:36]:
And that hasn't really changed. The problem exists just as much now as it did which shows you that there's probably a longevity. We're not gonna go out of date. Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host, James Bishop. A quick break from today's proceedings to bring you a message from the heavens. Making content can sometimes feel like an epic battle against the forces of darkness, sapping you of your motivation. But I have something that can increase your vitality, a source of energy like no other. I present to you Ayla, The world's 1st chemical free pre workout alternative made from the power of plants for long term results and a healthier you.
James Bishop [00:22:31]:
Ayla believes in the harmony of being active and well. With Ayla, you'll feel like you've harnessed the very essence of the night, giving you the strength to boost your workouts. Are you ready to uncover the energy that lurks deep within your soul? Visit the website at meet aila.com for more information, and if you dare, seize a special spine tingling offer of 20% off checkout by using the code graveyard. That's meetaila.commeetaila.com. Now back to today's service. Coming up, I asked Andrew and Greg where the podcasting helped build their personal brands. And we discuss converting your social following into a podcast following and why it's so difficult. But first, I wanted to ask Greg and Andrew about podcast promotion.
James Bishop [00:23:20]:
Let's dive back in. So you you made these 2 episodes. Somewhere you posted them. I reckon you've and this was a thing I thought because I was very surprised because I still found it on Apple Podcasts.
Greg Rutherford [00:23:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:23:30]:
I reckon you're gonna get loads of new listeners off the back of this. People are gonna go
Greg Rutherford [00:23:33]:
check out.
James Bishop [00:23:33]:
That's it. Yes. And I was like, oh, it's still there, which means you must be hosting it for free somewhere because you're not, I assume paying for that. Did you, like I know we're going back 6 years, but, like, Did you do some kind of promotion?
Andrew Steele [00:23:48]:
No. Do you think? Just your social social. Our our own native social, you know.
Greg Rutherford [00:23:53]:
And I
James Bishop [00:23:53]:
think this is a thing that people can really learn from. So, again, Andrew, don't take too much offense. But, like, you, again, you were probably at the height of your well, you were doing it strictly. Right?
Andrew Steele [00:24:02]:
Like Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:24:03]:
Yeah.
James Bishop [00:24:03]:
The business.
Greg Rutherford [00:24:04]:
Although, annoyingly, Instagram was as popular as it is now in 2016. It's crazy how much that's changed as well. Facts I didn't think stories were a thing then.
James Bishop [00:24:11]:
No. I don't think they were. But I guess from the fact that it didn't, you know, blow up. Because I guess if it had had hundreds of thousands of downloads, you'd have gone, okay, we need to prioritize this.
Greg Rutherford [00:24:23]:
I've known if it but I I
James Bishop [00:24:24]:
You didn't move the
Andrew Steele [00:24:26]:
It it to realize, I've never looked at the stats. I mean, it might have been a hit. I I think I think I
James Bishop [00:24:33]:
love the the truth, like, the truths that we're finding here that I think people will learn so much from are just incredible.
Greg Rutherford [00:24:40]:
I think the raw
James Bishop [00:24:40]:
Such as, I don't even know if anyone listened to it.
Andrew Steele [00:24:43]:
I think the raw audio is on the SoundCloud, and that's how I pushed it to Apple Podcasts from
James Bishop [00:24:48]:
Yeah. That would be true.
Andrew Steele [00:24:49]:
Right. Yeah. So I've never looked at the v the listeners on the SoundCloud. I don't know.
Greg Rutherford [00:24:54]:
I don't know. And we should do that. Yeah.
Andrew Steele [00:24:55]:
And then and then, yeah, we our Twitter was probably our biggest Our biggest output at the time, I got about 8,000 u 150 or something something like that on Twitter. Now Yeah. Well, then Oh,
Greg Rutherford [00:25:07]:
I didn't.
Andrew Steele [00:25:07]:
Audience. So yeah. So but, we definitely got some feedback from this group of people that call themselves the Athleticos, who are basically extreme athletic fans, like, really stream. It's a small it's a small group. It's a small group. They liked it, but they would like, you know Anything. They would like a picture of an egg From me. Whatever.
Andrew Steele [00:25:26]:
You know, they would they would they would be they would love it. So, so, yeah, we didn't get we didn't find ourselves getting inbound, like, social content Got it.
James Bishop [00:25:35]:
Real tricky one there as well, which is something people miss all the time, is that your social following is, not the same as the audience you are making the show for.
Andrew Steele [00:25:44]:
Yeah. So so much the case. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:25:46]:
I assume. Yeah. No. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. I think even making the the most recent one that I've done, there was a a lot of Genuine focus just to go, let's get out of social, get out of social, get tons of of listeners that way. And actually Doesn't translate.
Greg Rutherford [00:25:58]:
I don't think it does. No. Because actually the interaction on
James Bishop [00:26:02]:
con My social was minimal when that day you on social? Because I don't imagine it's
Greg Rutherford [00:26:06]:
I don't
Andrew Steele [00:26:06]:
know. You
James Bishop [00:26:07]:
know? You might
Greg Rutherford [00:26:08]:
go to the stats if you No. No. No. No.
James Bishop [00:26:09]:
I just
Andrew Steele [00:26:10]:
Well, you don't have much first party access to your own data of your audience anyway on these social platforms, really, do you, in terms of, like, the, you know, the demographic Stuff and
Greg Rutherford [00:26:18]:
the basic edit of age and whatever else.
James Bishop [00:26:20]:
But I think the really important thing is that it doesn't convert.
Greg Rutherford [00:26:23]:
No. It doesn't. And do you know what's really interesting with that? I say, at times Because, obviously, there wasn't much to do, I didn't push it as much on my social anyway, but then it did really well for a few weeks the when when we did the sports one recently this year. So they're actually that's that's a prime example of social media actually not really matching. Yeah. But then I can imagine for some of the massive YouTubes or whatevs who've become really big over the last few years, They've become big on that because they're big on their pods, their YouTube, whatever. So it's a really interesting way how if you start on the other sort of social levels, how it builds those ones, but actually, it doesn't seem to work the other way as well.
Andrew Steele [00:26:58]:
Might not be two way, basically. Yeah. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:27:00]:
No. I don't think it Is this 2. 2.
Andrew Steele [00:27:02]:
The evidence we've got is a yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:27:04]:
Well, because we talk about discovery and engagement. So discovery is the process of finding out about the person or their podcast and then engagement. It's like, okay, now I've heard them. Like, maybe I'm gonna go listen to the Life and Performance podcast or maybe I'll find Andrew's business and follow him or whatever. Con And Yeah, it's really tricky. Yeah. Just on a side note, which isn't really about your show, but I'm just interested because I think people listening to this show, It's a thing that they focus on, and it would be great for them to hear how it is for people with a larger community. Do you use podcasts or podcasting as part of your, like, business building or personal brand building? Like, do you go and speak on podcasts? As
Greg Rutherford [00:27:47]:
I've I've spoken to you over the years. I mean, it's not it's not something that I do very regularly, to be totally honest. But, I mean, I You would. I do. I know. And I and I have. I mean, obviously, some you don't manage your time or whatever. I still I have 3 kids now as well.
Greg Rutherford [00:28:02]:
And, like, and the only way it drives my household. So, like, it's a nightmare.
James Bishop [00:28:05]:
Like, just And you need a motivation for doing it as well.
Greg Rutherford [00:28:07]:
Of of course. Yeah. And but the yeah. I think it's very easy. Maybe for me is because I don't live in London either, so I live Away from everything. It's very easy for me to not do things because there's so much to do, at home. I guess maybe Fiordje, it's probably different.
Andrew Steele [00:28:20]:
I I did, I I've done I've done, you know, a small handful of of fairly decent podcasts over the years, But purely as part of building, you know, what was DNA fit at the time, the business. So I think that's your point is there's gotta be a motivation. There's gotta be a goal as to why you're Turning up on Have
James Bishop [00:28:36]:
you found it effective when you've done it?
Andrew Steele [00:28:38]:
Really effective. The most effect if I I would I'd be happy to say in a so, outside of just, you know, straight up using the meta platform as for digital marketing, it was the most bang for our buck in terms of spend. You know, we spent In the classic gray area of paying to be a guest on certain people's podcasts, which Gray area. Yeah. May may or may not have occurred. We, it was extremely effective. And and then and then and then even, like, paying for, just ad space on other people. So really, really effective for the brand that we were.
Andrew Steele [00:29:12]:
Because I just think you can podcasters are generally, You're speaking to a very narrow, deep audience who are very interested in a certain type of topic. So if you can if you can find the audience which matches with your brand, like, it was Super, super effective.
James Bishop [00:29:27]:
If you had a headstone for this podcast that's not in the graveyard, but, you know, it's been 6 years. What would you write on The headstone.
Andrew Steele [00:29:36]:
Oh, this is great. The word meandering would come in. Yeah. Yeah. We're all here. I'm A a beautiful, energetic, meandering, river of Nonsense. Of nonsense. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:29:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember you, Peter.
Andrew Steele [00:29:55]:
Actually, no.
Greg Rutherford [00:29:55]:
You say I think that is definitely a strong part of the story, but I don't think any of it and and, of course, it was chaotic, but I still have as much belief in it Yeah. I do. As I did then.
James Bishop [00:30:04]:
Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:30:04]:
I did and so it would it come from very good intentions, genuinely, doesn't Yeah. The the thought process we still believe to this day has a place.
Andrew Steele [00:30:16]:
Yeah. In fact, my my headstone might be like, Oh, I didn't realize you were dead. It's still going. It's still going.
Greg Rutherford [00:30:22]:
That. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It will never die. Yeah. It will never die. Because forevermore, The conversation's live from performance no matter what.
Greg Rutherford [00:30:29]:
We will always be having it.
James Bishop [00:30:30]:
But it always oozes out of you. Right? Like Yeah. You know, at the end of this show, I always like to think, c Should these guys should this podcast be resurrected, or should it be laid to rest? Exhumed. And this is one of those shows where I think I reckon in some shape or form, it probably already comes out in some of the other stuff you do. Yeah. But you should definitely think about, con You know, if you've got the right intent and you've got a vehicle around it like a business or you basically, the idea that you had, if you have that passion you should Absolutely do it again. The punchline for me is I think it's really exciting as an idea as long as it's going somewhere because you're not making or interested And the thing I've taken away from this is these are guys who made a podcast because they really believed and are passionate in an idea and think that they have They see a space that they know they have the credibility to fill for a specific audience. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:31:25]:
Yeah. And I'm just gonna hate this now because I'm just gonna be texting him for the rest of the day. He's gotta go to Flintshire a little while. And I was just we'd be like, right. Let's do it. Let's get
James Bishop [00:31:32]:
it going.
Greg Rutherford [00:31:33]:
Hey. No. Yeah. But we do
Andrew Steele [00:31:34]:
need to get it going. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg Rutherford [00:31:35]:
We do.
Andrew Steele [00:31:36]:
But it's
Greg Rutherford [00:31:36]:
it is I guess that That was part of what we never had, was it? We never got we never went looked for or saw any form of feedback, negative or positive. It was just because we just wanted to just talk about these things. And and that's clearly where we went slightly wrong as well.
Andrew Steele [00:31:49]:
Yeah. I'll just I'll just add to that. I think, like, in my in my sort of non sporting life, you know, I'm building these digital products. In in digital product management, there's a there's a there's a phrase we say, you are not your customer. And you you can have all your best theories about what kind of feature people would love in this app. But But unless you actually go speak to users and figure out, actually, who is actually using this and what do they want from this? You often you create these kind of what they call solutions in search of a problem. You just Churn out niceties that don't actually fix a problem for the end consumer. So I think to all of this is really sort of consolidating in my head that I think there is an audience, But we need to understand the why of what we're trying to achieve by speaking to that audience and that helps us.
James Bishop [00:32:28]:
You've just stumbled on my last line of
Greg Rutherford [00:32:30]:
the show.
James Bishop [00:32:30]:
Okay. Well, it
Andrew Steele [00:32:30]:
was a great it was a great show. Thanks very much. That's it. Right, mate? Yeah. That's it. Yeah.
James Bishop [00:32:35]:
Gents, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've learnt loads. I think it's been, fascinating and I really appreciate you joining and sharing what is probably like the textbook story of people starting a podcast. Let's just record, chat, make 2 episodes, run out of steam, and, You know, there are this show you know, I I said I'm gonna make a show about people whose podcasts are dead. Everyone goes, that's amazing. Who are you gonna ask? I'm like, well, There's 3 and a half 1000000 dead podcasts, so I'm Wow. You know, I can go for a while. But this is like How didn't
Greg Rutherford [00:33:11]:
we think of this?
Andrew Steele [00:33:11]:
Yeah. I love this.
James Bishop [00:33:12]:
A great idea.
Andrew Steele [00:33:14]:
We would've got distracted and and it'd be great if this podcast dies. Like, as a meta would be. As a meta thing. Yeah. That would be amazing.
James Bishop [00:33:21]:
What I hope is that this show can evolve into the place that People come to announce their show is coming back. So, like, once you've been through the process coming down to this is where you you know, this comes the platform for launching
Andrew Steele [00:33:31]:
new shows. Well, I think it just has. 2 weeks time. Yes. You're gonna be getting on now. Episode 2. Let's go.
James Bishop [00:33:38]:
Yeah. Gents, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Andrew Steele [00:33:40]:
My pleasure.
James Bishop [00:33:45]:
So there you have it. I've given them my blessings and I hope we hear them back on the airwaves soon. Let's reflect on 3 key lessons from today's service. Number 1, plan your content. People often neglect what I call the 1st mile of content sometimes known as pre production. As Andrew said the word on his headstone would be meandering. At least some planning and scripting in advance of recording is vital otherwise you end up recording a conversation that you might as well just have down the pub and not delivering any clear value to your audience. Number 2, market your content.
James Bishop [00:34:22]:
Ideally, at least half your resource that's time, money, and effort should go into marketing. As you heard in our chat, even for someone in the public eye with a large following. Just posting on your native social accounts is not enough. Remember, the people following you on your social media accounts aren't necessarily the same audience you're trying to target with your podcast. Last but not least, don't lose self belief. Coo. As Greg mentioned, despite all the chaos, he still believes in the show. This is such an important lesson for creators everywhere to keep on keeping on.
James Bishop [00:34:59]:
As we bring this service to a close, we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode to someone you think will find it valuable. And if you or someone you know has a podcast that's that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off. We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard@onefineplaydot con. I truly hope that you'll join me for our next service where I speak to sales consultant John Welsh about his dead podcast called humans of LinkedIn. I asked John about the exact moment he knew the show was over, and John opens up about the worst piece of podcasting advice he ever received. A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible. Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor.
James Bishop [00:35:45]:
Conor Foley was our assistant producer, and Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks Go to Andrew Davey for the inspiration. In parting, let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment but instead let us focus on the light that's Life and Performance podcast brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop, and this is Podcast Graveyard.