James Bishop [00:00:05]:
Dear listeners, we are gathered here today to reflect on a podcast that is no longer with us. Give it a rest. It was a podcast that explored the importance of giving ourselves a rest and permission to quit things that don't feel aligned. Haunting us today is its host, Casey Hayes. Launched in April 2022, 10 episodes to published in total before the show was left to perish 15 months later. On this episode, We'll learn what caused Give It A Rest to be yet another headstone in the podcast graveyard. We'll celebrate the highs, Lament the lows and discuss whether it should be laid to rest forever or be brought back to life. From one fine play, this is podcast brave.
James Bishop [00:01:08]:
Welcome to this service. I'm your host James Bishop and and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is Keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Let's begin proceedings. Hi, Casey.
James Bishop [00:01:51]:
Thanks for haunting the show today.
Kacey Hayes [00:01:52]:
Hi, James. Thanks for having me.
James Bishop [00:01:54]:
Could you just give us a quick 60 second explainer about what the podcast was about.
Kacey Hayes [00:01:59]:
Yeah. So it was a solo podcast. It was a passion project of mine. So I think that was a big part of what eventually led to its demise. But I started it wanting to create a place where things like hustle Culture, diet culture, productivity cult all the things that we are essentially conditioned to accept and don't really question very much, Question why we go along with those things if we don't necessarily agree them, if our our values are different, and consider why it might be important to quit those things And, like, how quitting can have a very valuable place in your, like, personal development, in your growth, all of those Thanks. How it can actually be beneficial to you as a person to quit instead of, you know, oh, you're such a quitter. It's always used very in a derogatory way, And I wanted to explore maybe some opposite aspects of that.
James Bishop [00:02:53]:
So tell me, why did you want to make the podcast?
Kacey Hayes [00:02:57]:
I wanted to make this podcast because I saw a gap that I felt needed to be filled. I felt like a lot of people weren't talking about the reasons for quitting. A lot of things that we see, especially in the entrepreneurship space, which I'm in, are reasons not to quit, reasons to keep going, reasons to be consistent, productive, all the things like That and I was like, well, maybe there's also a case for quitting things. Maybe if we don't quit things, we're pushing, like, a boulder up a hill. We're going in the wrong direction. We're pursuing options that maybe aren't aligned for us. And let's maybe question why quitting has such a bad Reputation and question why we're doing the things we feel like we might wanna quit.
James Bishop [00:03:40]:
When you started out, what were your expectations? What were you hoping to achieve?
Kacey Hayes [00:03:44]:
I think I wanted people to feel seen. I wanted to create community. I wanted people to question their Beliefs around quitting, the things they could just say give it a rest to.
James Bishop [00:03:55]:
So you were hoping to build a community around this idea. Is that right?
Kacey Hayes [00:03:59]:
I think so. And Because it wasn't technically a business podcast, like, you know, a lot of people have, they use it as a business tool. It was more of like a personal passion project. I think I didn't really think about, okay, the things I would think about now if I was gonna launch podcast. How often are we gonna publish episodes? You know? How are we gonna keep generating content? Do you wanna have guests on? What would you talk about? How will that serve the overall mission of the show? Where do you see it in a year or maybe even 2 years from now? All these questions that I would ask myself now, I did not really consider at the time, and I was just like, I'm just gonna go with it. It felt very, like, Intuitive, but also very, I don't know, kinda like willy nilly in a way. I was like, I'll just see what happens.
James Bishop [00:04:44]:
How long were your episodes and how did you plan them? Because I think for solo episodes, that's a completely different skill to the one that is normally talked about because most people assume a podcast with a guest where you have questions and you do research and all that kind of stuff, but with the solo episode, obviously, that's not normally there. So I'd love to just understand very quickly a little bit about, yeah, what you were doing for that process and how long your end episodes were and how did you manage that whole recording and editing thing.
Kacey Hayes [00:05:18]:
Yeah. That's a really good reason why I stopped doing it too. The word that keeps coming to mind is very unsustainable. It was very I would just randomly come up with ideas, like a topic that would keep coming up in conversation with people, which doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea. It's just that It wasn't very I didn't have a lot of prep for it. I think I tested doing some scripted and some unscripted. Yeah. It was kind of a mess.
James Bishop [00:05:43]:
Unscripted means you just sat down, and kind of, like, recorded a 1 man therapy session and then shared it with the world. Almost. Amazing.
Kacey Hayes [00:05:53]:
Yeah. It was I would have a few bullet points and just go from there because I didn't wanna stifle myself too much.
James Bishop [00:05:59]:
So they were all different lengths?
Kacey Hayes [00:06:01]:
Yeah. I think I usually ran between 15 and 30 minutes. Some of them were under 10. I'm not A podcast editor and I spent a lot of time editing after the fact. A lot of silent pauses, a lot Lot of umms, a lot of a lot of, oh, I lost my train of thought. Let me cut that out.
James Bishop [00:06:21]:
You did do some editing.
Kacey Hayes [00:06:22]:
Yeah. It was not great, But, yes, I wanted it to be clean before I would publish it. So if there were instances where I lost my train of Thought again or, like, long pauses again because I didn't plan where I was gonna go with that particular line of reasoning. I would try to trim those down.
James Bishop [00:06:42]:
So you were also editing and you just said that you're not an editor, so I guess you were learning the editing software and then not only that, you're editing your own train of thought, so there's no objective third party looking at it deciding if it's interesting or not it's also just what you were thinking.
Kacey Hayes [00:06:59]:
Yes. It showed me the value so deeply of people that manage the the back end of podcasts. Like, it is such an invaluable skill that people have, and I do not possess it.
James Bishop [00:07:12]:
Let's dive in the deep end. How much time do you think you put into making the podcast?
Kacey Hayes [00:07:19]:
Gosh. That's a great question. From coming up with the concept to The artwork and show descriptions and all the little nitty gritty pieces, I mean, it had to be dozens of hours, like And then also, you know, recording and editing because I'm a slow editor because I don't have that skill. I never thought about how much time I must have spent on At, like, probably between 50 and a 100 on 10 episodes from coming up with it to all the way to the end.
James Bishop [00:07:49]:
So let's say a day an episode. It's a big commitment.
Kacey Hayes [00:07:53]:
It is.
James Bishop [00:07:53]:
How much money do you think you put into it?
Kacey Hayes [00:07:56]:
I guess I would have to think about that in terms of, I guess, how much my hourly Quote, unquote wage is now that I pay myself in my business because I did everything myself. So I I did the show descriptions and the show notes and The art for the podcast and the editing and all the things that you'd normally outsource to a paid skilled person.
James Bishop [00:08:18]:
Did you spend any physical money? Like, Did you use free editing software and free hosting, or were you paying for those things?
Kacey Hayes [00:08:24]:
That was all free. It was called Anchor at the time. Now it's Spotify for podcasters, and they have built in very basic, like, editing software where you can just cut things out. That's all I needed. Like, it was just a passion project. So I would cut out the the long pauses or the umms or whatever, and, the platform itself is free, so hosting it was was no charge. So I really didn't have aside from my own time and energy Put in, there was no, like, actual money that I had invested into it.
James Bishop [00:08:56]:
What was the biggest obstacle you faced when trying to make the show?
Kacey Hayes [00:09:01]:
Consistency killed me because I did not plan. I did not consider different energetic needs on different days Like I do now with my current podcast, we record ahead so that when life happens, we're not scrambling on the back end like, oh my gosh, we have a podcast due, and we have nothing in the can. What are we gonna do? So much unnecessary stress. That was never a thought that I had when I was running Give It a Rest by myself. I think in talking about it with you, I'm kind of realizing I didn't really take it very seriously. It's interesting Because at the time when I was coming up with it, it felt very important and something that I felt like I needed to do, but without any of the, like, the foundational work in place Of how am I gonna maintain consistency? How am I gonna come up with ideas when I don't feel like coming up with ideas or I feel like I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel? How often do I wanna interview people? Do I wanna stay solo? I can see last year the version of myself just being like, I don't know. We'll figure it out. I don't know.
James Bishop [00:10:07]:
Such an interesting reflection that at the time, you were putting in a whole day, an episode that's a big commitment for something that you now sort of realize you weren't that committed to. That's why Give it a rest. Finally got given a rest. Consistency is so important as well. Whatever your consistency is, whether it's daily, weekly, fortnightly, monthly, court. It doesn't matter. That consistency is so crucial. I guess there are other things that go around making a podcast that you learn on the way like marketing, for example, which is a whole Separate problem, that on reflection, you also realize was another obstacle but probably directly related to the fact that you weren't as committed as you thought you were.
Kacey Hayes [00:10:57]:
Yes. I think I deeply underestimated the level of commitment needed for A sustainable, consistent podcast.
James Bishop [00:11:06]:
I think that's something that catches so many people out is that whether you're doing it as a passion project or professionally. There is, like, a minimum commitment that you need to make it work.
Kacey Hayes [00:11:18]:
Yes.
James Bishop [00:11:19]:
If you don't pedal the bike fast enough, you fall off.
Kacey Hayes [00:11:22]:
Exactly. I think it's easy on the surface to look, especially now with how much podcasts have taken off in the last Few years especially. It's easy to think, well, you know, so and so is doing it, they're doing it. You know, there's such a low barrier to entry for podcasting In general, because you can take advantage of free tools and free hosting and all that stuff if you want to.
James Bishop [00:11:43]:
It's a perceived low barrier to entry rather than an actual low barrier. Yes. I often talk about it as a second rate citizen is how people look on it. Oh, this is gonna be a bit easy and cheap and fast, and actually it's not those things. And in recent months, we've seen the rise of video podcasting, and that's a real interesting challenge for the people that do think of it as a easy, quick format because now they're like, well, I want a video, but, oh, well, the video is gonna make it a bit more difficult, isn't it? Because now I've I've got to think about these other things, but I want it, but I don't want it, but I want it, but and they get caught, and it's all around this same challenge of, well, it's not actually as easy as it looks.
Kacey Hayes [00:12:33]:
A 100%.
James Bishop [00:12:34]:
Yeah. Have you got any really embarrassing or cringeworthy stories you can share from those first 10 episodes?
Kacey Hayes [00:12:41]:
I guess, again, just that perceived ease that you talked about, I did think it was gonna be easier than it was because it was just gonna be me Sharing my thoughts, conversations that I knew people wanted to have but weren't having in that particular space. It's funny to think back, And it wasn't even that long ago, just like how much I've learned since then that, like, it's a real commitment, it's real work, all these things. It's not some, you know, Fly by the seat of my pants, kind of I'll figure it out because I didn't figure it out. It died.
James Bishop [00:13:14]:
I guess also because you thought it was interesting in your head when you're having the thoughts and you spoke to some of your friends in private and they were kind of entertaining conversations, then, you know, your brain goes, oh, well, everyone's gonna love it if I love it. Everyone's gonna find it fascinating.
Kacey Hayes [00:13:30]:
You're not thinking as much about the audience maybe.
James Bishop [00:13:34]:
It's kind of embarrassing to think back, All those things like that that you assume and then in retrospect, you realize. Yes. But they say, don't they, that you can't be successful unless you climb Cringe Mountain. You have to put out bad stuff and
Kacey Hayes [00:13:47]:
Yes. It's true. If you
James Bishop [00:13:49]:
go and look at some of the biggest creators on the planet, the stuff they started with is not necessarily their finest work.
Kacey Hayes [00:13:56]:
And it's like a club you're we're all in together at some point because you just it's it's inevitable. Like, it's gonna happen And if you're creating anything so just go ahead and join the club with everyone else.
James Bishop [00:14:07]:
Absolutely. It's an important part of the journey. Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host, James Bishop. Coming up, we get into the exact moment Casey knew it was over. And as always, we reveal whether the podcast should be brought back from the dead or forever laid to rest. But first, I want to find out what the worst piece of podcasting advice Casey ever received was. Let's hear what she has to say.
Kacey Hayes [00:14:42]:
People think it's gonna be this really quick tool for sales In their business. So I don't know that it's necessarily advice, but maybe a big misconception that I see about podcasting, that it's gonna you're, You're, you know, you're gonna be on 1 podcast, and there's all the right people are gonna hear that 1 podcast and just come running to you and want to buy your services.
James Bishop [00:15:05]:
I don't think there are many things that are less true than that. It's a relationship platform, not a discovery tool, and it's about building brand, and it might take years at best.
Kacey Hayes [00:15:19]:
And no one wants to hear that.
James Bishop [00:15:21]:
No one wants to hear that. You're right. Why did your podcast die?
Kacey Hayes [00:15:27]:
I just couldn't sustain The publication schedule, which was already kind of erratic, I think I realized that I was not going to be building a community with This was not gonna be an effective way to create the conversations I wanted to be having that I felt were important. I think that I had, like, a Deeper knowing, even if I didn't consciously realize that's why. But it's like this isn't gonna have the intended result That I wanted, and I'm also already struggling very early in to keep it going. So what's this gonna look like in even a couple of months from now if it's already this hard? So I think that's ultimately why it sort of faded away.
James Bishop [00:16:05]:
Dare I ask, what did you do to build this community, if anything.
Kacey Hayes [00:16:09]:
I knew so little about community building. I don't think I even had the words to know that that's what I was after.
James Bishop [00:16:16]:
Oh, okay. That's something you say now with hindsight.
Kacey Hayes [00:16:19]:
Yes. And I'm glad you asked it that way. I have no community building skills, And, you know, there's people that that's their whole expertise is how to build community, how to resonate with people, keep those people around you. That was never gonna be my journey, and I think I just didn't know that at the time, and that's fine.
James Bishop [00:16:40]:
And I think You've highlighted a great point that you also don't necessarily know what will come of it. Sounds like for to a certain extent, you Started the podcast for two reasons. 1 was to share what was going on in your head about the idea of quitting and failure and that kind of thing, but also to have a creative outlet for something.
Kacey Hayes [00:17:02]:
Yes. Especially, you know, as a writer. I've been a writer as As long as I can remember from childhood and however that expresses itself either, you know, the early days of blogging, and Even now as, like, a business writer, I help other people write. It's interesting how your creative expression can kinda change forms over time as we Change is people as circumstances change, but there's still always that need to, like, express in some way, and I think the give it a rest was part of that for me.
James Bishop [00:17:31]:
Was there an exact moment you knew it was over?
Kacey Hayes [00:17:34]:
I don't think there was. It was so gradual. There was Just me trying to continue to be consistent, which was the biggest struggle. A whole year went between the 2nd to last episode and the very last episode.
James Bishop [00:17:50]:
Oh, wow. So You took a big rest.
Kacey Hayes [00:17:51]:
Yes. And still thought, well, maybe I can still use it for some purpose. So I'll put an episode out. And then it was like as I had published it, and I was like, this is I think that's probably when I knew. Like, this is the last of it for me. Like, the The spark isn't there anymore, and maybe this has just kind of served its purpose and it can go on its way.
James Bishop [00:18:11]:
So the last episode doesn't wrap the thing up. You don't say this is the last Episode. No. One of the challenges of podcasting is that resting isn't really in line with how we build audiences podcasts in the modern era.
Kacey Hayes [00:18:28]:
Yes.
James Bishop [00:18:29]:
We live in this world of consumption and consistency and regularity, and whilst it is possible to make a great podcast that maybe only publishes a season every 6 months or whatever like a Netflix show might. It has a compromise, which is, you know, a whole different commitment to your marketing, for example, because, unfortunately, you lose listeners to other shows, and it's so hard to pull them back because people don't listen to 25 different podcasts. They only listen to 6. So if you go out of their day to day habit, it's hard to get back into it. So it doesn't really lean into the Option of being able to have a rest. What are some of the worst decisions you made when making the podcast?
Kacey Hayes [00:19:14]:
Probably not considering audience first. That's the biggest part of creating For like, who's gonna consume this? Who is this going to help? How is it going like, what gaps are or is this gonna fill that people can't get somewhere else?
James Bishop [00:19:29]:
Did you ever think about
Kacey Hayes [00:19:30]:
Not for give it a rest. No.
James Bishop [00:19:32]:
So does that mean in turn that you didn't do very much marketing either?
Kacey Hayes [00:19:35]:
Correct. I think I had the easy out for myself Of it like, oh, well, it's not business related. I'm not trying to use it as a business tool to grow my business, so I don't have to market it. It's just for fun. It's something that I think is valuable that, you know, the people close to me seem to find valuable too. I had a few, like, really dedicated listeners actually that would ask, Are you bringing it back? I really missed your podcast. That and that was nice. I appreciated the support, but it just wasn't like, that can't be the only thing, like a hand you know what I mean? Like, a handful of people, which I'm so grateful they did, but if the input of energy isn't matching up to, like, the external results that it's creating in the world.
Kacey Hayes [00:20:16]:
It's like, is this worth it? Does this matter to enough people? Does this still matter to me?
James Bishop [00:20:22]:
And not knowing your audience, which you say is One of the worst decisions that you did or didn't make, I guess, was the challenge here. Makes it really hard because your podcast really needs to either be listened to more by the same people, so you want someone that's already a fan to listen to more of what you make or you need to find new audiences. And if you don't know who you're making it for or you don't know where to find new audiences, it's nearly impossible to make it grow. What about good decisions and any that you made too late?
Kacey Hayes [00:20:51]:
I probably wouldn't have chose podcasting as my format in general. I love podcasting. I think it's a wonderful platform with So much potential and so many benefits for the right people doing certain specific things. For me at that time, it just wasn't If I was talking to myself now, especially in a business context, I'd be like, that's not what you need to do. What you need you feel like you wanna have, you know, creative expression, and that's It's great, and podcasting is fun, and you can do it, like, you can. You know how to set 1 up. You know how to come up with a name and do all the The admin that goes with it, the show note writing and publishing and all that stuff, but because you can doesn't really mean you should.
James Bishop [00:21:32]:
It sounds to me kind of poetically that the best decision that you made too late was to give it a rest. Is that about right?
Kacey Hayes [00:21:41]:
Yes. Absolutely right.
James Bishop [00:21:43]:
What aspect of the podcast do you wish you'd focused more of your energy on?
Kacey Hayes [00:21:48]:
Sustainability. I didn't have, like, a set publishing schedule that I can recall, or ways to come up with ideas that We're, like, more generative. It's like I would have a flash in the pan idea and then do an episode on that, and then it's like, okay. Well, what am I gonna do for the next because the next episode has to happen now. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna you know, there was no consistent, like, inspirational way for me to Have, like, impactful content ideas, really. It was just it was very, like, fly by the seat of your pants and not thinking very much about value for people.
James Bishop [00:22:25]:
Did you mourn the passing of your podcaster. Were you relieved to see it die?
Kacey Hayes [00:22:30]:
Oh, I don't think I did mourn it. I was grateful for the experience, and It was maybe a little bittersweet because I think I still maybe saw some potential there, but it also just felt like this has served its purpose, And I was okay with letting it go.
James Bishop [00:22:46]:
From everything you've learned, what piece of advice would you give to a podcaster about to make their 1st episode?
Kacey Hayes [00:22:53]:
About to make their 1st episode. I think the biggest would even be what might even happen before they record is to be very, very, very sure that you want to start a podcast, that this is your platform. You've gone through all the the self questioning of, you know, Is this right for me? Is this right for my business? Is this right for the clients that I want to that I wanna nurture, that I want you know, really think about that, And don't let how fun and easy it looks kinda outweigh your true judgment of that. You wanna be very sure and committed to that journey, and I guess that would come before you even press record, but just be sure that that's the avenue you wanna travel down.
James Bishop [00:23:38]:
I think that's great advice. The number of people I meet who want to start a podcast but have never tried it. They've never done a pilot episode. They've never just interviewed their mate. They've never been a guest. And then they discover that this job of hosting a podcast isn't just having a conversation, there's a script and potential answers and having to Listen to your answer whilst thinking about what you're gonna say next. And the fact it's not just a conversation over a beer, it's much more than that.
Kacey Hayes [00:24:08]:
Yes. Yes. I've had someone message me on LinkedIn about my services. I I help people who wanna be podcast guests, And someone was like, I wanna be on podcasts because I wanna have conversations. And I was like, have you ever done it before? Nope. That's like, okay. Well, let's start there. And and your whole description of that it's not just it's you know, you're not just sitting with someone and pressing record and Just whatever comes up comes up.
Kacey Hayes [00:24:35]:
If if the podcast that you're listening to sounds like that, it's because the interviewer is very good at their job.
James Bishop [00:24:40]:
I think that's so true and so misunderstood. The easier it looks, the More of a compliment that is to the person who made it. Yes. If your podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?
Kacey Hayes [00:24:59]:
She gave it a rest.
James Bishop [00:25:00]:
Perfect. I was wondering which of the many phrases around give it a rest you were gonna go for. So this is kind of the time in the podcast where we talk about whether the podcast should be resurrected or whether it should stay in the podcast graveyard, and I think it's a fairly easy decision on this one. I feel like I'm really happy that you made the show because it's set you up to have a great next phase of your career and a job that you love and a new podcast that you're clearly really enjoying in a much more enjoyable format with a much healthier framework around you, so it feels like it was a really good vocational qualification. And even though Give It a Rest has been laid to rest. You now have a new podcast, and so maybe from quitting, that was what needed to happen in order for you to Flourish and do something new.
Kacey Hayes [00:25:58]:
1000% the case. Yes.
James Bishop [00:26:01]:
But I think we would be agreed in saying that it should Stay firmly in the graveyard. Yes. Unless you really disagree, which I don't think you do, the heavenly afterlife is the best place for Give It A Rest, the podcast.
Kacey Hayes [00:26:17]:
Yes. I think it can rest in peace.
James Bishop [00:26:19]:
It can. I've really enjoyed this memorial today and I feel like you have really gotten the spirit of reflecting on the show and being really open and honest with both yourself and me and the listeners about your experience. And for that, I can only say thank you.
Kacey Hayes [00:26:38]:
Thank you.
James Bishop [00:26:43]:
Rest in peace give it a rest. In an ironic twist of fate You can now practice what you preached. Let's take a moment to reflect on the lessons from this service. Number 1. Make a plan for how you'll keep the story going. When coming up with ideas, always have the bigger picture in mind. At One Fine Play, we have what we call the 500 episode rule, which encourages you to imagine what episode 500 of your concept might look like. It's a way of getting you to have a think about the long term and can help prevent emptying the tank too soon.
James Bishop [00:27:15]:
Number 2. It's not as easy as it sounds. Just because you can make a podcast for a substantially lower budget than other creative of mediums does not mean that it's necessarily easier. What's more as the saying goes time is money so don't be fooled into thinking it's ever actually free. Which brings me on to the final lesson as Casey said just because you can doesn't mean you should. There are many mediums and formats you can use as a creative outlet and to build community. Podcasting may be the right format for you, but just make sure you have at least some Oh, my dear, as to why. And remember, there's no or at least only a handful of wrong answers.
James Bishop [00:27:57]:
Listen to enough of this show and you'll be sure to know what they are. At the last service, we were haunted by Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago, host of the little anguish tapes. Guillermo spoke about the importance of building templates not spreading yourself too thin and being creative. It was a heartwarming and inspiring episode so if you haven't already go back and give it a listen. As we bring this service to a close we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode to someone you think will find it valuable and if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off. We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast [email protected]. A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible.
James Bishop [00:28:50]:
Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor. Connor Foley was our assistant producer. And Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davey for the inspiration. In parting let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment but instead, let us focus on the light that give it a rest brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop, and this is Podcast Graveyard.