So How much is that?
Welcome to Podcast Editors Mastermind. This is the business podcast for you podcast editors out there. We started as a small mastermind, what, 4 years ago almost at this point, and now we share it with you guys. It's kinda
the thing about, like, it's it was like, what, in March of 2020? March of
2020. Well, our first episode was recorded in the hallway at Podfest. Wow. Kinda nuts. But I'm Jennifer Longworth with Bourbon Barrel Podcasting. And my cohost today? Daniel Abendroth at
RothMedia.Audio. And not appearing are Bryan and
Carrie. Hopefully, they'll be back again with us soon. And we have a very special guest today, Heather Zeitzwolfe. Heather, unmute yourself and welcome to the program. Hey. Thank you. I I you
know, like, probably Easter or something, but it looks like something out of, like, Midsummer Night Dream. I I love it. Oh, there's Bryan. Bryan is
joining us in the comments today. He's not feeling well.
Unfortunately, he's still recovering from COVID. He's all good to go except a cough, which, as you can imagine, trying to record an hour long podcast when you have a tickle in your throat is probably not the best idea. So he'll be joining us in chat, though we do miss him on the show. And we welcome anyone to join us
in chat. We love to see questions, comments as we go along. Please jump in and be part of the conversation. So our special guest, I'm gonna give you the official bio here. Actually, I'm stealing it from your LinkedIn profile. Oh, I don't know. I
haven't, but I don't know if I've updated that. It still sounds like you. It
says you are a creative, empathetic nerd who enjoys numbers. Right? Yep. That hasn't changed. Right. She helps her clients understand their finances so they can make empowered decisions in their business. Her approach is nonjudgmental and shame free. She's not your dad's accountant, unless your dad's accountant has funky colored hair transforms tofu into delicious desserts and geeks out on writing sketch comedy. Still you. Yep. That's still me.
All right. Right. Her passions include cooking amazing plant based
food, standing up for animal rights. This includes humans and helping podcasters. So again, welcome to the show. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. And if people were at
Podcast, you were the amazing closing keynote this year telling us Thank you. The fairy tale of the scope creep, which Yes. Basically was just a message for Editor. And I felt very called out,
which is why you're on the podcast. Oh, well, you know, there was a lot of juicy details that had to be cut out for time. And, truth be told, I was scrambling to cut things before coming on stage. That's why I was looking at my notes because there was just so much to go over, and I had to cut a lot of juicy good stuff. So I'm glad to be here to talk further about this stuff. So give us a quick definition of scope
creep. Yeah. Scope creep. You know, it's one of those words that some people are
familiar with and other people have never even heard of scope or scope creep. You know? And so I think it kinda just depends on the type of business that you've worked for or, like, the type of office or whatever. But scope creep can exist in pretty
much any kind of service industry. But with creative people that are producing something, it can happen a lot because the scope creep is this thing that comes in where you end up doing things that were either not what the client asked for, but you thought they wanted it, or you're going above and beyond more than they need the client, or the client asks you to do extra things that you never intended to based on the price that you came up with, or it can also
kind of flood into, like, not having the right communication with your employees or your contractors where they understand what you're getting paid for, so the company is getting paid for because a lot of employees love to go above and beyond, or maybe they're just dragging themselves and taking way too much time, and then it blows your budget. So you can blow your budget either way.
So it can happen in all these different areas, so that's why we have to look at how we're pricing ourselves, our contracts with our our clients, and just having a real clear definition of what it is that we intend to deliver and what they want us to deliver. So one of the things you said when we were
talking about this about eliminating scope creep, because that's kind of what we wanna do is starting with the right clients in the first place and Exactly. Getting it a good understanding of of the expectations and everything too. So the most commonly asked question in the podcast editor group is how do I find clients? But we also need to know how we find the right clients. So what what's your insights on that? Yeah. You know, it's so so difficult
when you first start a business. You know, like, you're so eager to make money because you gotta have cash coming in that, you know, tend to, like, just take whoever or we may take our friends. And friends could be a good relationship, but also friends may, like, overstep their boundaries if you haven't really defined those
boundaries. They may also kind of expect a discount or you feel obligated to give them a discount, and now you're getting inundated with a bunch of work that maybe you're getting underpaid for and you're maybe over delivering. So, friends, it's a great way to kinda start your business off, especially if you're just kinda dipping your toe into something and maybe you give them the friend's price or whatever. But let them know this is not always gonna be the price and I'm doing you
a solid. So there's that. It can ruin a friendship too. I talked about this in my presentation, the friendship thing. And then the other thing is, like, looking for clients. So probably you're gonna look within your network that you already are surrounded with. So, Jennifer, you're in Kentucky. So you said you've gotten some local clients, so you're looking in your local community. You meet people in your local community, but are they going to be the right
fit for you? You know, it's a lot of it is just having really good conversations with people and not being so eager to just take on a client. And, again, granted, if you need money coming in, you're gonna just take somebody, but you may decide later on, like, maybe this isn't the right client for me. So have things in place where you can evaluate, like, is this client the right fit for me? Maybe I should get other clients,
and I believe that's probably something we're gonna talk about later on. It's kind of looking to see who is the right fit clients. Yeah. I know
after I'm into it who's not a good fit.
Yeah. So once you start to get that data of, like, you know what makes not a good fit, like, start writing those things down. And then when you have, like, they call it discovery calls or whatever you wanna call it, You know, start to ask them questions to kind of vet these things out. What are some problems that you encounter, Jennifer? Like, late payments or, like, delivering stuff to you too late or what a
It's Divas. Oh. Okay. So the, like, the high
maintenance, that sort of thing. That I'm expected to drop
everything and fix their show right now. And I've lost 2 clients because they were divas, and I'm like, see you. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You know? Yeah. So
maybe you have like a no diva policy or something in your business. Like I have like a no jerks. Like, I'm not work working with any jerks. When I first started my business, I had a jerk. And I was like I thought to myself, wait a minute. This is the whole reason why I started a business to begin with is I don't have to take jerks anymore. Mhmm. So maybe just let them know, like, in the scope of it, these are the parameters of when you can, you know, ask me to do things. This is
the hours that I work, and then you can define it. And if they are a diva and, you know, you can just say, like, hey, this was in the contract that we agreed on, and I would just clearly define that. But some people are still gonna be divas regardless. Right. You know? So I always have this thing where at the end of the year, I look at, like, how
much clients paid me through the year. You know, if you track things like in QuickBooks or, you know, some some way that you could track the invoices of your clients, you could see, like, okay, which ones were, like, the the highest paying ones. And then you can kind of rate them on, like, pain in the butt client versus easygoing, always on time, pays on time. And then you can factor in, like, a pain in the butt fee if you really wanna keep them on.
You know? That's what I do. Yeah. I was telling my kid about that last
night when I was, you know, complaining about somebody. I was like, yeah. I need the pain in the butt fee. Do you put that item line on
your invoices pain in the butt? But I put it on my calculation. It's in
my sales spreadsheet when I'm calculating the price. I put it in a little buffer in there. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is, like, if you find that certain clients like, if you've got prices for things and you know that, like, some clients are gonna ask for a little bit more and but you don't know yet if they're going to ask you for those little bit more types of things. Maybe just put in, like, a 10%, 20% buffer of, like, time and and payment, you know, just to make up for
the the pain in the butt potential. Pain in the butt
potential. Mhmm. And then you just start working that in.
Or, you know, the first time you work with them have, like, an onboarding fee and, like, kind of onboard go through the onboarding producer, and then maybe you'll find from that isn't just not a good fit. I don't know. That's
true. It's like a probationary time, you know, where they're
filling you out and you're filling them out. But well, Bryan's not here, but he
has a question in the comments. Okay. Is there a common driver between those who most often ignore their own boundaries and step endoscope creep? Oh, that's a good
question. Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of times it's just that people just don't know because we haven't set any boundaries. So I'm one of those people, like, if I get an idea in my head, I'm just gonna text the person that's involved with it. Like, I don't even think about, is it 2 in the morning? Is it the weekend? Like, the ideas popped in my head and I just send it. And it's not like I don't respect
their boundaries. It's just like that's my thought. But I know people, like, put things on their phone where it's like do not disturb and all that kind of stuff. And then when I see that, I'm like, oh, they probably don't want me to contact them. So, you know, let people know. I mean, it could be good natured, like mine is. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be a diva. I'm just like ideas come into my head. I oftentimes have very little boundaries.
Like, I just let let people contact me anytime they want. So you just have to to let them know, like, hey, I'm with my kids 3 days a week. Don't bother me during this time or something. But as far as, like, what kind of people? I'm not really sure. I mean, high maintenance people, I guess. Or really, really low
maintenance people who don't think about boundaries like me.
Yeah. I know I've run into, like, acquiescing too much because, like, I have my email, you know, linked to my phone. So whenever I get an email, like, 7 or 8 at night, it's like, I feel like that urge to, like, respond right away and would, like, take care of it. But it's not, like, stop myself and be, like, this can wait until the morning. Yeah. And then once you once you set that standard,
if you do respond quickly, which I do oftentimes, then you've set that expectation now forever. And so then when you don't respond quickly, they're like, hey. Yeah. What happened? And maybe you just say, hey. You know, I'm getting back to you right away on this because we're we're first starting out together. But in the future, there's gonna be maybe a 24 hour turnaround. You know? So let's say you
are working with a client, scope creep is happening. You figure out, like, down the road, they're not a right fit. Like, I guess, what do you determine is, like, not the right fit? And then how do you proceed to essentially, like, fire your client? Like, what is your strategy there? Because for me, it's like well, the one thing I struggle with is, like, I guess, like, coming from, like, a scarcity mindset is, like, I don't wanna fire this client because now I'm making less money. Mhmm.
And, like, that feels icky. But then also, like, the process having that conversation of, like, we're not a good fit. Goodbye.
Yeah. Well, if you don't like that uncomfortable conversation, raise your rates. That's even worse. But it was seriously, though, if it's just not working out, maybe find somebody that would be a better fit for them. Mhmm. I mean, do you work with mainly, like, one industry? Like, I know some people are like, oh, I only work with lawyers or, you know, with doctors, you know, whatever.
And they kinda know the expectations of those, you know, people that are, like, are in that same industry usually have the same kind of tendencies. But if you've got a whole wide range of clients, it may make it a little bit more difficult. But you're saying, like, you've gotta pay the bills and stuff. You gotta weigh that, like, the pros and cons of, like, if I let this person go, okay, maybe my stress level is gonna go down, my
health is gonna be better. I won't be working such long hours. Yeah. I'll be get paid less, but I won't have all those awful things. So, you know, that is part of business, but I'd find somebody else for them. Like, give them, like, 3 recommendations of other people that they could work with maybe, but or raise rates. Yeah. Yeah. I think
I had, like, a a while ago or something that that like, it's always in my head. It's, like, if there's something you don't wanna do or somebody don't wanna work with, give them like a really high number because either one, they don't wanna work with you and problem solved or 2, they do, but at least you're getting well compensated for the discomfort. And I
tried to break up with a scope creep client recently. I was like, you know what? Maybe I'm not the one for you because I have this day job. I can't drop everything during the week. And they went, we'll fix it. Oh. We'll cater to you. And I was like, well, drat. Hope you get one in.
Yeah. Well, so sometimes, you know, you just have to and things will probably turn around for that person, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times, it's just like setting the boundaries. But that whole presentation that I did, it really all came down to, like, the contract. And, like, from the contract, set the terms. And that way, they know what to expect. You know what to expect. And when those things don't align, then you're
like, hey. You know what? I know you're in a rush for this. There's gonna be an extra fee, you know, and then, you know, you're gonna get paid more and maybe you have to bring in a contractor to help you with it, but at least you're getting compensated for it. So let's
talk about that contract. Yeah. Is what it all comes down to. My contract is kinda weak right now, and I know I need to revamp it, especially since I'm bringing on new contractors and, and things are, are changing in my little business. That's not a one woman show anymore. I'm like, oh, maybe need to consider this. So when drawing up a new contract, what are some things I need to be considering? What do I need to think of?
Okay. So if you are thinking that you're gonna outsource some of this work, you'll wanna think about okay. It's different if you're doing the work and it's going directly to you, but now you're bringing out somebody else, you have to pay them. It's gotta be something that I mean, unless you're, like, sending it overseas or something, you're gonna be paying a decent rate. Right? So then there's gotta be some
kind of markup for that. Again, in my presentation, like, I talked about, like, rather than paying by the hour, maybe pay by the project. Definitely. And so if you do pay by have them pay by the project, the client should also be paying by the project, like, within a certain scope. So that way you have expectations of, like, okay. I know, like, every time I do this show for this person, if it's x amount of length or whatever, I'm gonna pay my
contractor this, and I always know that I'm gonna make this percentage. And that way, you know, you've covering all your costs. So I would make sure, like, think about, like, okay. Am I gonna pay a contractor to do this? How much am I gonna pay them for this? And then what do I wanna have left over? So figure out those pieces, and then you can do some things to kind of, like, sweeten the deal of, like, having a little
extra things, you know, like, I talked about bundling your offer. Like, you could have, like, a, you know, 3 tiered thing, or you could have little I was gonna say hors d'oeuvres. That's not the word I'm thinking. A la carte. A la carte. Yes. You can have some a la carte type stuff that will be extra. But, again, thinking about, like, if it you have to outsource it, how much is that gonna cost? So put together a spreadsheet, or if you hate spreadsheets, put it just down on a piece of paper
and kind of figure out how much you wanna make. And, you know, you can start with, like, how long it took you to to do this, what you wanna make from it, what you were making before, and then you're gonna have to add a little bit of buffer. So prices are probably gonna have to go up if you are bringing on contractors. Oh, yeah. Prices are going
up. Watch out. Oh, we got a question. Is there
a typical upcharge that would help us be in an appropriate range? Yeah. You know what? It really depends on a lot of your overhead. Oh, wait. I, enough to cover the admin, but not so much as to be gouging. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, the thing with our business is it kinda all starts with if this is not a side hustle, if this is our bread and butter business, right, this is our main gig, we need to be able to pay our bills. Right? So we need to look at, like, what is our budget
for our personal life? And then how much do we need to make in our business to cover that? Because, hopefully, our business is gonna cover that. And then how much extra do we want? So we can kinda start from there and kind of backtrack. Like, how many clients do I wanna take on? How much do they need to how much would they have to pay if for me to make the money that I wanna make? And you can
kinda back into it that way and start to figure, like, okay. If I'm gonna have 10 clients and they're each, you know, spending I'm just making things up. A 1,000 a month. Okay. Are you making a 1,000, or is that, is that, like, net of all your costs, or is that before all the costs? Like, is that the sales price? So you gotta have to think about both. Like, what do I wanna charge them? What do I wanna keep in my pocket? So I'd start with, what do I wanna keep
in my pocket and back backtrack? And you'll find that that's a scary number. Like, you think like, oh, yeah. I wanna make, like, 200,000 net income. And then you, like, look and you're like, oh my god. I have to, like, bring in $700,000 worth of,
you know, business. Then you're like, do I really wanna deal with that? Maybe
you don't wanna have certain services where the margins are thinner. Maybe you wanna have things that have higher margins. So, where you make more from that service. So you you kinda have to look at the blend and the mix. That's why I like to have bundled services because it's, you can, you know, put in some little extra things in there that maybe are, like, recordings, you know, prerecorded
classes that you've done or something that you can offer them. Oh. Something that's not gonna, like, take that like, you do it once, and then you just give it to them. Like, you put together, like, a pitch deck. I'm just making things up. Like, oh, you like to be on podcast. Okay. These are great pitches that you can use to go on podcast, or maybe you've done some research on different podcasts that would be great for them, and they could buy this little book from you of, like, great podcast
to apply on. You know? I don't know. Mhmm. Something you just do once. You know? Chap GPT it, you know, and then and then, you know, and then you could put it as part of the bundle as, like, you know, say, like, oh, this is normally, like, $700 or I don't know what you're making, but, you know, so you can add it in. But I
like that because, like, initially, I what comes to mind is, like, okay. What can I do that's worth a $1,000? It's like, okay. Well, I can, you know, show notes, Francis, blah blah blah. Stuff that's, like, adds a lot more to your play each episode. But the idea of having something that you create, like, my wife and I, so we're, like, business partners in this ordeal. Someone's been, like, on our to do list for years now is, like, a course
on, like, how to start a podcast or whatever. But just, like, have some sort of, like, videos. Like, you put in a lot of effort upfront, but then it adds to the value of your service without adding work onto your plate for every client for every episode. I mean, as long
as it's something people want. Right. So you don't wanna go through all that effort. I would, you know so before you do something I mean, check g g p t, you know, so I'm not gonna take you long, but putting all the courses together. But I would ask your stable of clients now. Is this something that you'd be interested in? If so, like, how much do you think it's worth?
You know? And just ask around and put it in some podcasting meetup groups or something and ask people, like because, I mean, it would be people that are podcasting that would be interested in that. Right? So Right. You get geared towards the people you're gonna edit shows for. So and maybe, like, if you do stuff that's, like, like, just say it's, like, it's, like, the real estate, I'm just making it. You know? You work with realtors or
something. Then you look into all the, like, the podcast that would be for, you know, around real estate. And then maybe you find some good manager, and maybe it's part of, like, helping them get on shows and it's already people that you already know and it's not a big deal. You know? So So we talked a little
bit about the contract. So I get a contract. I figure out how much I'm charging, but I gotta get paid. Mhmm. How we get paid. Part of the
contract should have your payment terms in there. When you're doing something like a podcast, you are You don't want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yeah. That would suck. You don't want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yes. That would suck. And, you know, there are terrible people out there that do stuff like that. And I've got a a client that works in a creative field, and she was using PayPal and I think Venmo. And she would do the work, give them the deliverables, and they
would pay, but then they would take the payment back. Oh. And, after she delivered it. And so they were just scamming her. You know? And it wasn't that she delivered something bad. It was just they so you wanna make sure that you when you're taking payment, it's through something that someone can't take the payment back. Wow. I mean, it's it's different if you give them a refund, but, you know, they can contest with PayPal or something like that.
So just be careful. Make sure that you get the payment up front if you can. If you're, like, put them on a retainer, if that's a possibility where they just get maybe they get a, like, a monthly invoice from you that, you know, you have an agreement, like, you're gonna do 4 shows a month or 3 shows or whatever it is. And if they say, like, I can't afford this now, maybe you just take a partial payment every week. But before you give them the deliverable, make sure that they make the payment
because once you give them the deliverable even if it's friends. Oh my god. They're, like, the worst. Oh. Because you, like, think, like, oh, I don't need a contract. It's my friend. You know? Yeah. I've been burned by that. How,
like, ironclad does your contract need to be? Because one thing that I struggle with is having just like, I'm just turned off by the idea of, like, the legalese jargon and, like, client, hitherto known as party a blah blah blah agrees to the following term, but it's just like, ugh. This makes me cringe. It's like, I want something simple that just outlines what I need, but, also, I wanna make sure I'm protected. And I think we sat down to do something simple. But by the time we actually
included, like, all the stuff we wanted to, it's, like, 8 pages. And now I'm, like, oh, I hate it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I
can't really answer that. But I think Gordon Firemark, I think he has something on his website that may or maybe he has, like, something you could purchase from him. I'm not sure. Wanted specifically
for podcast editors. Oh, interesting. Oh. I need to reach out to him about that. Alright, Gordon. That's something
he should draft. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I would just think about, like, you know, if you're not into, like, the whole legal thing, I mean, you want it to be something that they sign, that you both sign. I mean, that's something you can take, like, a, you know, put it through DocuSign. So it's, you know, can be a, electronic signature. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but you could make some agreements through an email first and then draft it up and then put it into a document of some sort
that they sign. So you can go kinda go back and forth with the terms, so it's not like they're inundated by this, like, horrible thing. You know? You can make it more casual at first and then just document the whole thing and then have them sign it. But, yeah, I'm sure that there's a gbt. I'm just taking a drink taking a
drink. No. Just I would think about, like, all the
deliverables that you do for clients, the areas where you, like, you end up spending extra time, you know, like, is there a buffer of, like, how many redos that you do? Like, I I would just, you know, put in all the things where you feel like start to notice, like, oh god. I feel like I'm going above and beyond here. And I'm just kinda go back and look. Maybe look at some shows that you've editor and be like, oh
my god. Yeah. Oh, that was, you know what if there's, like, sounds like the guy's got a lawnmower going on one side and you gotta deal with that? Or, like, one time I interviewed somebody who was in a coffee shop, and I'm like, oh god, why are you in a coffee shop? There's, like, so much clanging and, you know, then it was terrible. So maybe just have clear terms of, like, hey, you gotta be in a quiet okay. You know, I don't know. Unless and just say, like, I gotta charge you extra. Yeah.
We need to have an upcharge for people who use Blue Yetis. Yes.
Thou shalt use a dynamic microphone or else I'm not editing your show. No ifs, ands, or buts.
That's funny. So you had said freebies and incentives.
How do we leverage freebies and incentives, Heather? Okay. So
freebies and incentives. So that would be like, you know, we wanna try to get in new clients. So if we're looking for leads, you mentioned like, hey. How do we get clients? You know? We we can have some freebies, which would be like a free download kinda thing. And, again, you could use, you know, like well, maybe you don't wanna tell people how to edit it, or maybe you make it look like it's so complicated people want it.
Look how hard this is. Don't you wanna hire me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then
incentives would be like, hey. If you pay me for 3 months worth of podcast upfront, I will give you this deal, or I will, you know, throw in this extra thing or, you know, something. You could, you know, give them a little something to make them sweeten the deal. That that's what that is. So it may be it doesn't, like, cost you much extra, but it sweetens the deal for
them. Maybe if they wanna pay you in increments because every time you do a transaction, you know, there might be those transact extra transaction fees. Say, like, hey. If you pay me in 6 months chunks, oh, you know, reduce this by this amount for for that, you know. That way you get the money upfront. Yeah. You can do things like that.
And then freebies, another freebie thing is, like, you guys could put on events where podcasters get to come on to Zoom and, like, podcasters meet you and they all get to meet each other and, you know, this can be like a a networking group. I mean, other people do that, and people love that kind of thing where they get to network with other podcasters. So if if you start to be that person that brings them in, then they're like, oh, and then by the way I add
it, you know, and then, okay, now they're gonna think of you. So, you know, there's you you can get creative with it. That's an interesting idea of, like,
having almost kind of a podcast or mastermind or a meetup or something. It's, like, come together and share ideas or ask questions and get advice. I host 1 once a month.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You do it once a month. You can stream it. You can also put on workshops. So, you know, again, maybe it's how to editor, and then you just show them, hey. It's really you know, this is a lot of work, and then they'll wanna hire you. So I'm sending a note to
my wife that we needed to, like, enter like, look at this. Yeah. Or
maybe it's why you need a podcast. Maybe that's better. Like Yeah. Do a workshop on why you need a podcast, and then you can show them, like, what your clients are doing. Like, you can show, like, the different shows that you've been working on and how it's increased their sales or how they've utilized it, how it's increased their speaking. I don't know. Yeah. Whatever it's sent for them. Bryan's comment. We
say it's for the audience, but we're the ones taking notes. Hey. I brought Heather
on specifically because she called me out without knowing it at Podfest. So, of course, we had to find out for ourselves. You know, it was
really funny. I had somebody contact me after my my speech, and she was not an editor. She was a podcaster, and she said, I I had to contact my editor right away after your presentation because I felt so bad about all the things I've been asking for. Oh, wow. Oh, I love that.
My biggest mistake lately that I'm fixing is being like, oh, yeah. I can do that for you. Yeah. But now I'm adding I can do that for you, and it costs this much more. Yeah. Yeah. You
know? I had that with, like, one of my first clients. It was, like, it
started out just editor, and it's, like, oh, I wanna start doing YouTube. Okay. Sure. Well, not got charged extra, but not enough cause I didn't know what I was doing. And I was like, hey. Could you, like, write a blur for the for each episode? Oh, yeah. That's not much work. I can do that. Blah blah blah. And then suddenly, I was spending 6 hours a week for a $100. It's just like, okay. This is not working out. So one of the other
things you sent was look at your numbers and examine what went right and what went wrong, then make projections for the future. So I'm in a money class right now with our local chamber of commerce, and I'm learning that I really don't know anything about this stuff. So what are some basic how to look at your numbers and examine on that, you know, talk to me like I'm 5 type thing. Okay.
Hopefully, you know, you're keeping things in, like, QuickBooks or some kind of bookkeeping software. Maybe you're not. Maybe you, hopefully, you're keeping at least, like, an Excel. No judgment if you're not keeping it at all. Hopefully, you got receipts and then you add it up, you know, for tax time. But if you can do it on a monthly basis, then you can kinda see how things are going. Take a client that you feel like there was, like, a lot of extra
work there and kind of examine. Like, maybe when you first start with a client, as much as I hate timing things, maybe you start timing things and just see, like, how long is it taking you to do these things. I know when I go to hire a contractor, every step that I'm gonna have them do, I time myself doing that activity so I know approximately how long it should take them? And then I can kind of figure out by the hour that I'm paying them, or is it by the project? So,
again, whenever you can pay by the project, I'd rather do that. So kind of examine each little piece and then go back and say, like, okay. What were all the costs associated with me with this client with this project? Did you have to buy, you know, new piece of software? Did you have to learn a new piece of software? Did you have to,
like you were talking about YouTube. Like, now you're now all of a sudden, you're having to do these, like, your thumbnails, you had to get software that did that, and now it's taking extra time, like, all the extra little things, and then figuring out, like, okay, if I did this, like, you can give yourself an hourly rate or something, kind of look at and see, like, holy
crap. Did I only made, like, $5 an hour? Like, I mean, if you start to look at all the stuff that goes into it and then educating yourself and granted, you're gonna have that knowledge for later, but still, it takes up time. You know, it's like, all that stuff goes into it. So look at all the time that you spent and then put a number attached to it, like an hourly rate or something. And just look look to
see, like, did I make any money off of this thing? Unless we're kind of going back and and looking, we we may kinda have a gut instinct about it, but we may not know, like, how bad it was or maybe it was better than we expected. But then that gives us some data that we can use for the future when we go to price something. So we can make a standard, like, spreadsheet and try to figure, like, okay. If I
do show notes, I'm gonna charge this much. You know? And then but then look and see, like, how long did it really take you to do those show notes? Like, was it 5 manager, or was it, like, an hour? Do you
have a tool that you use to track your time? You know, there's so many
tools online to do that. I mean, you could even use your phone. But, I mean, there's certain ones where you can, like, put in a client. I hate timing things, so I I do too. But there's there's a lot of free ones out there, and some of them have gone out of business. I don't even wanna say what they are, but, like, I keep a lot of stuff in Notion. Like, when I'm doing my podcast, like, everything is in there. So you could depending on where you organize your stuff for your client, there may be a
timing tool. I don't know. What do you guys use to organize stuff for your clients? I use Airtable. Okay. Do they have a timing thing in there? I wonder. I currently use RescueTime because
I, like, tracks whatever software you're using. And so I kinda keep track of, like
Right. Oh, you're watching YouTube versus now now you're in
Reaper, so you're working blah blah blah. Mhmm. But it's just like it doesn't track per project, so I don't know because I know, like, how long I'm working and, like, being productive versus not. Mhmm. I used to use toggl, t oggl, and you could, like, start as a timer. So you put in, like, what I'm working on, you know, this client now, start. And when you're done, you can stop it, then you get a report. Like, my assistant uses that to keep track of whatever she's working on. Mhmm. And, like,
it be a report and everything. But my problem is I always forget to, like, start and stop. And then I'm never, like, working on, like, one client, like, one per thing consistently. So it's, like, okay. I'll bring 3 shows into RX. Like, oh, I'm gonna work on this one. Like Mhmm. Get this process going while that's running. I'm gonna do this.
And now it's just it may get convoluted. I need to, like well, I really need to, like, do better at tracking and, like, focus for, you know, a month and be diligent about tracking it and kinda see where I'm at, but it's just I don't. Yeah. I mean, at least when you first bring
on a client or something and see unless you have, like, an extra fee for, like, onboarding type stuff. But once you get in the groove of what it is they're paying for, yeah, maybe time. I I know. I hate that too because I'm Mhmm. I'm a multitasker. I work on, like, a bunch of things. But you could be working on, like, bringing in something that's, like, it's generating the transcript. So you can have that going, that time. Yeah. Is that still the time
for that? And then you could be working on email while that's still going and or, you know, for another client and put that time. You could have double time. I mean, it's still time. I mean Yeah. You still have to wait for it. One of the other things you had also with we've talked about hiring contractors,
the difference between hiring contractors and actually hiring employees. So there's a huge difference, and you just made a face for those folks who are are listening later and can't see. I haven't made an epic face over that of, oh my goodness. Don't make the wrong decision here. With contractors, you know, it's gotta
like make the smell test for what a contractor is. And so there's the IRS has their own standards of what a contractor is, and then each state might have, like, California is very strict.
Mhmm. So you don't wanna you know, if you've got somebody working for you in
California and they're doing things that the smell test is more like an employee, then you better have them on payroll. The thing with the contractors, they had need to be invoicing you. They need to have their own business separately. So, you know, it's like they invoice you. And with contractors, they should be using their own tools, making their own schedules. Like, there's, like, different parameters around that. You're not giving them a laptop. I mean, I I'm sure, like, you can
probably have them log in to your software. You know? I'm not saying that that's true for everybody. This is not tax advice. You know, make sure that they kind of fit the parameters of what a contractor is. It gets fuzzy in these creative worlds, you know, I think people are probably acting more like employees than contractors, but, you know, I oftentimes see, he'll go to a website and I'll see people on the website and it's like, this is my team. And I'm like, I thought they were supposed
to be contractors. Now they're showing up as your team on your website. Like, that looks like an employee to me. So I'd be careful about being, on the Internet with that kind of stuff where you're showing, like, my team. And it's like, the IRS just does a quick Google and they see that, and they're like, wait a minute. You don't have any payroll. What's going on here? Not like they're doing that, but, you
know, I would be afraid of that. You know? Mhmm. The thing with an employee is that you have to pay them their tax, payroll tax. And so, you know, a lot of companies are trying to avoid payroll tax. So that's why the IRS is so strict about this. And in California, there's a lot of, like, employee protections and, like, they wanna make sure everybody is okay, you know, paid correctly. And I'm not an expert in
California. For an employee that, you know, they've got you bring them on, you hire them, there might be a set, like, as amount of hours that you give them, they work in a certain span of time, you know, like, from 9 to 5 or whatever it is that you have them work. But you can look at on the, you you know, on the Internet and see, like, what is the parameters for, like, a contractor versus an employee. So, yeah, I would just be very careful. But if you do do employees,
I definitely would use payroll software. Don't try to, like, do it yourself. I've seen people try to do payroll themselves, and you don't wanna mess around with payroll taxes, like, no. Because you could find yourself in a world of hurt. So I use Gusto. I have an affiliate link. If you wanna use it, you get, like, a $100 or $200. It depends on when they when you sign somebody up. So Cool. Yeah. Feel free to share that. Yeah. We'll put it in the
show notes. So if you anybody listening that wants to use that affiliate link or honestly find any links we talk about or links to work with or find more about Heather. Just check the show notes, podcast editors mastermind.com, and you'll find it all there. I use wave.
Uh-huh. Yeah. Waveapps.com. It's free except you Yeah. Like, the
month what you pay is in transaction fees. Whenever somebody pays an invoice, then they take a little cup of that. Super easy to use, and they do offer payroll. I think it's $40 a month, and then it's, like, $6 per employee, they kinda do it all yourself, which is pretty nice. Never had to use it. I would imagine you could
set up your contractors through that too. And so they Yeah. You can file your 10.90 nines and everything through that. I did that 1 year, but it was
really frustrating because, obviously, around tax time, they get really busy. And I made a mistake on the 10.99. Like, Like, hey. I need to do revision, and it took, like, weeks before they finally get around to it. And plus, like, you had to sign up for, like, their payroll service. So, like, you're paying the $40 plus $6 per person. And then after, like, that one year, it's like, you know what? I think I use, it's like, 10.99 through text something.
Manager website, it's, like, $3 to file the 1099, so I said that. But if I was doing payroll and, like, that would totally, yeah, they can do the 10.99 filing and do all that for you. Yeah. I would definitely use a cheaper software for that. Yes. Made that mistake. 1 year, never again. I don't know if you ever listen to
our show, but towards the end of our show, we like to draw a card from our pod decks. Oh. Deck of cards.
Okay. And has a random question on it. Now Okay.
I don't have the pod decks, but Bryan does, and I made him draw a question before the show. He says, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
Oh, best piece of advice I've ever been given. Oh, okay. This is one, that I hold near and dear to me. I used to volunteer for Big Brothers Big Sisters. Oh. And I was matched with my little who came from a home that was, like, poverty stricken. It was, like, something that I've never witnessed before. And the mom, some of the things that she did,
she wouldn't show up places. You know? It's like and I'm going through all this effort to to be there for her little kid and, like, I got her kid, like, all these, like, calendars and cute things, and then, like, and, like, next time I'd come and they'd be in, like, in the garbage and, like, just like all these. And then I knew that the the mom couldn't pay rent, like, she was and, like, they were maybe gonna get evicted and, like, but then she got some money and then she went and bought
toys for the kids. And I was just like and I'm like, oh my god. Like, she's making all these bad choices. And this was my own judgment of, like, what I thought what I would do differently. And I was putting that those what I would expect her to act like onto her. And I learned from talking to my advisor at Big Brothers Big Sisters that, like, you can't expect people to behave in the way that you behave. Like, they
have a background that's totally different. They're in a totally different situation. There's all these different factors that are like, yeah. You're not walking in the same shoes as this person, so you can't expect her to act the same way that you would. And that was a very good lesson because now when people act a way that I'm like, god. Why are they acting that way? I'm like, well, you know what? I don't know their whole backstory. I can't, you know, have any judgment
against the way that they act. That was a a great lesson. That was quite a while ago now that I think of it. It was 17 years ago or something. So So for me recently, it's,
it's yet to be determined if this was good advice. But, hey, my business is growing. And I was in another mastermind group. They're like, well, you have to raise your rates and hire people. Are you prepared to take on more stuff? You're gonna have to raise your rates and hire people if you're gonna grow. I'm like, okay. So we'll see what happens. So that's what I'm doing.
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. If you wanna grow your business, unless you're doing something that is passive where, you know, it's just you're selling things while you sleep, if it's something like this where you're producing something, yeah, you're gonna have to take on more people. And then you take on that role of being more of, like, a manager of manager and and CEO, the visionary. Right? Until you
can until you can hire a manager. Right. So, you know, a lot of times people get into business because they like to do something like editing or, you know, this is, like, fun for them. And then when they grow, they find, oh my god. Now I have to, like, take care of a staff, and now I gotta be a I gotta be a manager. Like, I don't like that. I don't like hiring and firing and doing all these things. So sometimes growth isn't made you know, it's not for everybody. Maybe it's just
like, you know, you just don't have one contractor. You know? Everybody doesn't have to grow, but just depends. And then also, when you do grow, that doesn't mean that you're not gonna have more money in your pocket. That could mean that you actually are, like, you've got all these people doing this stuff, but then if your profit margins aren't a certain amount and your costs aren't a certain amount, you may end
up just taking home the same amount. Yeah. So it's wild that you can have way more clients, and you're making the same amount in net profit. Yeah. For me, it's,
imperfect action beats perfect inaction. Oh. Better to do something, like, not ideal than to wait and wait and wait to get it perfect, and then you end up never doing it. Yeah. Nice. I use that with my clients all the time. Now they're struggling to get started because they want it perfect. It's like, imperfect action will beat it every time. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, I I don't know
why. I mean, the one that I thought of of don't expect people to act the same way Mhmm. I was like, well, how does this even tie into this? And I'm like, oh, wait a minute. That is, like, with scope creep. It's like, exactly. Like, you're expecting somebody to act a certain way or, like, behave a certain
way. Like, well, these are how all my clients, you know, treat me or this is what I've always done, you know, but then they act a different way and it's like so that's why we gotta make sure that's we have clear Boundaries. Boundaries. Well, Heather, if people
wanna get in contact with you, the Radical Profit Fairy, as you, sometimes call yourself, What's the best way for us to connect with you? You can find me on
Instagram @getradbiz. That's probably the easiest way to find me because my last name is kind of a a hard one to spell. I know that feeling. But, yeah, hit me up anywhere. You know, it's like, you know, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm barely on TikTok, but so Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can send me an email at heather@getradbiz dotcom. Yeah. Just contact me and, you know, if you are interested in tax, bookkeeping, or any kind of other kind of services, like, I do profit
advising. So this type of thing that we're talking about today, like, looking at your business and, like, drilling down, like, if you don't wanna look at the numbers, like, I will geek out on your numbers for you and look at the data and we'll, you know, figure out some a good plan of attack for you. Yeah. Love it. Well, Daniel, if someone wanted to be a
guest on our show, what would they need to do? They simply have to go
to podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest, fill out the form, and we will get in touch with you. And this is perfect for anybody who, like Heather, is an expert and wants to share their knowledge and expertise, or like me and are struggling and want somebody to give them advice and expertise and to kind of soak it all in. So if you are struggling with something and you want to mastermind it and get advice from people that might have different experiences
than you, we love doing that as well. So podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest.
Alright. And this has been Podcast Editors Mastermind. I've been your host, Jennifer Longworth. You can find me at BourbonBarrelPodcasting.com. My cohost this evening has been? Daniel Abendroth, and you could find me
at RothMedia.Audio. And not joining us
live, but he was in the chat, Bryan Entzminger with Top Tier Audio and also not joining us with Carrie Caulfield at Carrie.Land. Heather, again, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll keep in touch. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you.
So How much is that?