Breaking: Trump Invades Venezuela

We are heading to the West Coast for the first time ever. So this is for you, jurisprudence heads. This year, the courts aren't just shaping policy. They are throwing the Constitution into a blender and reshaping the entire future of the country. So we are bringing the full... strict scrutiny treatment with us to California. The breakdowns, the historical context, the side eye, the feminist legal rage, the puns that might have some innuendo, all of it.

So get excited. So we will be on March 6th in San Francisco at the Herbst Theater, on March 7th in Los Angeles at the Palace Theater. We are going to get into election law, executive power, reproductive rights, the cases keeping us up at night, and there are a lot. We'll do all of this in a fun way. Come for the legal analysis. Stay for the sugar-fueled roasts of wet...

Kavanaugh and Sam Alito. You can grab your tickets right now at crooked.com forward slash events before they sell out. Just going to say, I think this would make an amazing holiday gift for a strictie in your life. Like be a hero.

Welcome back to Pod Save the World. This is a breaking news episode that we just recorded on Saturday morning about the regime change operation in Venezuela. Here's the episode. Hey, Ben, new year, new regime change. Early Saturday morning, the United States launched a regime change operation in Venezuela, where U.S. Special Forces troops, along with FBI agents, blew up key Venezuelan military infrastructure and captured Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro.

Maduro and his wife. Trump said the Maduros are now on a US warship, the USS Iwo Jima. They're en route to New York City for prosecution. They're calling this Operation Absolute Resolve. Gotta love these names. Trump and Rubio both suggested that the military operation is over for now, but that US troops are ready to conduct a second wave of strikes if necessary. Trump said that second wave would be even bigger than the first.

But in the interim, Donald Trump said that we, the United States of America, will be running the country of Venezuela. He literally said that the team of guys behind him. would be in charge of a foreign country. That group was Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, John Ratcliffe, the CIA director, Dan Cain, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and Stephen Miller.

So he's a viceroy now. I guess that collection of great minds is going to dictate terms to Maduro's former vice president, Delcy Rodriguez, who has since been sworn in as president, and I guess just run Venezuela as a vassal state through her.

though Trump said he's not afraid to put US boots on the ground. More of that in a bit. So this could be trending towards a military occupation. So we're doing this, the breaking news episode on the fly. We're learning information in real time, but we're going to try to cover what we know about the military operation.

how the US is going to run Venezuela going forward and what comes next sort of internally there, including what it means for the Venezuelan opposition that desperately wanted this outcome, but now doesn't seem to be part of Venezuela's future, at least according to Trump.

We'll talk about Trump's threats to Cuba and Colombia, what lessons he might learn from this, including very bad ones. We'll talk about the international reactions such as it is at this moment, the legal questions, Congress's role, and then who Maduro is. And I don't know, we'll try to be. little bit hopeful like maybe try to sketch out what a good outcome could look like but i don't think either of us feel like we're trending that direction um but first ben just i have to say like

This is so much crazier than I ever could have expected. We've been watching this troop build up for a while. We've been covering this. You know, we both, I think, felt like you don't amass 15,000 troops and a couple aircraft carriers in the Caribbean to do nothing. But Trump.

Launching this capture operation against Majuro and then explicitly saying that his team of aides, including, you know, Viceroy's Rubio, Hexeth, Stephen Miller, are now going to run Venezuela until some transition point TBD is just. batshit crazy. You know, Trump is now overtly saying also that this is about taking back oil that was stolen from the United States. But yeah, I guess we now have like a petro vassal state in South America, Ben. That's how we're starting 2026.

Apparently, Tommy, and Happy New Year to you and to the world here. There's the thing with Trump where you have to take him on his own terms, right? And the reality is he's been... basically telling us who he wanted to be in his second term since he got elected. And keep in mind, one of the first things he started talking about after he was elected were Greenland and Panama. And the reason that's important...

is because, yes, that's not who was on the punch card today. But we were kind of moved from yesterday into today. from one era into a new era here, where the United States is back in the empire business in this hemisphere. And let's be clear, that's not hyperbole. Like, that's what he said.

Now, you go through the roller coaster of the last few hours. It starts with this operation. It says, I'm saying to myself, okay, we're doing this now. We've been saying for months on this podcast, clearly this is about regime change.

Clearly, it was a decapitation exercise. And so when the targets started to leak out, you know, the presidential compound, the defense, some, you know, defense ministry associated buildings, it's like, okay, they're trying to decapitate this regime. They did. They got Maduro. They got him on plane.

And by the way, the U.S. military, its capacity to conduct these kinds of operations, this is what it does best, the kind of going in and getting somebody. It's a night raid. It's what happens after. Exactly. It's a night raid, essentially, on steroids, literally.

But, you know, you felt this sense of, OK, well, what's going to happen next? Or, you know, they're probably going to announce some transition plan. Maybe Miriam Machado is going to fly back and the opposition leader and say there's going to be an election or the.

Because the last election should have gone the other way. We're going to put these people in charge. And there'll be some kind of familiar, at least, rhetoric around this. But I think what was really... driving the home point from home for me was that press conference where trump

is just like, yeah, we're running this country. Marco Rubio, he's already the archivist and the Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor. Now he's also the pro-consul of Venezuela. And that's why this is such a, to me, dangerous moment. Look, I know Venezuelans who are happy today. They hate Maduro. They've wanted to seem gone for a long time.

But normalizing the idea that not just any US president, and I don't think any US president should do this, but this US president in particular can... just with no authorization, no legal basis, deposed the leader of a foreign country and announced that we're not running that country. And he didn't even talk about drugs, really, in his press conference. He just talked about oil. Barely, yeah. The oil companies are going to get on there. This is like early 1900s stuff that were back.

in the soup on. And so there's a lot of different angles on how that plays out in Venezuela, in this country, with the role of Congress and with Trump's own kind of authoritarian trends, how it plays out around the world. boy, this is a seismic event. And you're right. For him to come out and just say this, now when he does it, you think, well, of course that's what he was going to do, is say that we're just running the country. But when you hear him say it in those blunt terms, you realize...

Man, we're not even one year into the Trump presidency, and we're already running foreign countries. That is not the best case scenario when it comes to having an autocrat as your president.

Yeah, he made some quip about how the Monroe Doctrine is now the Donroe Doctrine, which even the little coterie of fluffers behind him couldn't find a way to fake laugh at. But yeah, it feels like a very big moment. But let's quickly talk about what we know.

According to Dan Kane, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, there were 150 planes involved in this operation. They hit a military airstrip in Caracas. They hit the most important military base in Caracas and then seemingly took out a whole bunch of air defenses all around. to facilitate these helicopters going in and out. The Delta Force troops did the operation itself with the FBI. Delta Force are sort of like a coterie of some of the most elite US Special Forces operators.

in the US military. It's so sensitive and secretive that I think the existence of a lot of these operators and teams is actually classified, but they actually do.

a lot of the night raids and things uh that have been conducted in iraq and afghanistan and other war zones over the past many years um trump said maduro when they got to his compound he tried to make it to a safe room but he was too slow and got arrested with his wife as he was trying to close the door no service members were killed that we know of they said a helicopter was damaged in the process of the raid but it could still fly this operation was apparently approved earlier

But they waited until last night because of weather, essentially. And the New York Times and Reuters have both reported that the CIA had a source in Maduro's inner circle.

And then Reuters reported that members of the Venezuelan military worked with the US to secure Maduro's arrest. And someone told the Reuters reporter that there was an inside job aided by the military. So it does seem like there was a lot of... conversations happening behind the scenes, trying to facilitate the ouster of Maduro, but not necessarily the regime.

And Ben, there's a lot of detail that's leaking quickly about CIA assets inside another government. But it does make interesting Trump's sudden fondness. For the current vice president and Trump saying that Rubio has been talking with her and that she seems willing to do whatever. the new team of Trump aides that will be running Venezuela says. So we'll see if this really was an inside job. I'm sure a lot more will leak out. But again, the craziest part was, to me at least, Trump saying,

The US is now going to run Venezuela. And here he is answering a reporter's question about how that would actually work and whether the US military will now be in Venezuela occupying the country. Let's play that clip. Do U.S. running the country mean that U.S. troops will be on the ground? How will that work?

Well, you know, they always say boots on the ground. So we're not afraid of boots on the ground if we have to. Can you explain the exact mechanism by which you're going to run the country? Are you going to designate a U.S. official to coordinate? Yes, it's all being done right now. We're designating people.

We're talking to people. We're designating various people, and we're going to let you know who those people are. What's the group you mentioned that would run Venezuela? Well, it's largely going to be, for a period of time, the people that are standing right behind me. We're going to be running it. So the plan seems to be like these guys are going to figure it out. I mean, it's like making the post Iraq war planning look crystal clear to me at the moment.

Yeah, wasn't subtle, but also wasn't detailed. And I think that kind of sums this up. On the operation, look, they were clearly planning this for months. You know, they were pre-positioning all these military assets or probably sneaking in CIA assets, probably Delta Force guys into the country so that they could have this kind of multifaceted operation. They were probably putting the squeeze on people. in maduro's inner circle and in the military at the same time that they were doing that

And look, that raises questions, which we'll get to later, Tommy, because that means that they were lying to Congress the whole time because there are people that were going out there and testifying that this wasn't about regime change. We're not planning regime change. We'll come back to Congress and ask you if we do regime change. That's a...

Trump's chief of staff very recently told Vanity Fair that airstrikes within Venezuela would require congressional approval. But then when asked today about whether Congress had even been notified in advance, Rubio said no, because this was like a hair trigger operation and it could have leaked.

And then Trump like jumped in and was like, well, in a lot of ways, they knew we were coming and have for a long time because there were a lot of boats out in the Caribbean. But yeah, no, we still couldn't have told Congress, which, you know, again, he's completely undercutting his rationale. But sorry, continue. No, that's right. And also lying, I think.

there were even officials that testified similar to what Susie Wells said. But then on what happens now, it's clear what the path that they're going to try to execute here, which is that you have Maduro, an ideological guy, clinging to power, running the place.

is an autocrat, but you have like powerful actors inside Venezuela, like the military that controls, you know, not only a lot of the guns, but also kind of some of the black economy that's emerged. And essentially what Trump's trying to do is go and keep this kind of rotted state in place underneath essentially the United States running the place, say to them, starting with the vice president,

you know, if you don't basically allow us to run your country, we might just arrest you like Maduro, you know, and he kind of made threats like this and he's kind of explicit threats. Yeah. And so what's interesting is he's not saying what you'd expect, which is we're going to come in.

Maybe we're going to install the person we think ran the last election, or we're going to say that there's going to be an election in 60 days. And who knows? Maybe we'll get some of that later. But actually, they're just going to try to kind of keep this. They don't want to antagonize the military because that's how you might get a civil war. And so maybe if we just give everybody a cut here, we'll bring the American role companies in. And he was very clear about that.

and start pumping oil and spread the money around enough that people in Venezuela will let us do that. Now, that's a pretty big roll of the dice. Let me just raise a few questions, Tommy. The boots on the ground, I think, would be for the oil facilities, because he's talking about the U.S. oil companies going in there and rebuilding infrastructure. By the way, it sounded like American taxpayers might have to put some...

the bill on that. So you need to guard the oil facilities. You'd probably have to guard the oil refineries, which by the way, are not next to the oil facilities in Venezuela. The oil facilities are in the middle of the country. The refineries are up in the north. So then are we going to be guarding the pipelines too? We could be looking...

in a scenario where are US troops going to be literally guarding US oil companies in Latin America? That's a question I have. Then the question is like, under what... possible legal basis is the united states running this country how does that work like their ministries who's going to be providing services in venezuela if there is violence and there are a lot of people that have a lot of reason to be pissed off in venezuela um who's going to deal with the violence in the country?

What is the role of the opposition? He basically was dismissive of her. He was asked about her and he said, she's a nice lady, but she doesn't have a lot of support in the country. So, so much for this being about democracy. It's not. bad oil, spoiler alert. So, you know, US regime change operations always look the best.

on the first day. When the military does something extraordinary, then there's pictures of a guy like Maduro who's a bad guy on a U.S. aircraft being brought to justice, etc. But all we know about what's coming next... is that the US oil companies are going down there. That's like literally the only thing we know. All the things underneath that about how this country will be run, what the role of our military will be.

Tommy, what's your over-under when Eric Prince puts in a bid to basically become the Venezuelan Security Services? So there is a lot of grift and probably a fair amount of violence to come here. There's a lot we still need to see play out.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The new year doesn't require a new you, maybe just a less burden to you. Therapy can help more easily identify what weighs you down or holds you back by offering an unbiased perspective to better understand your relationships, motivations, and emotions. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S.

BetterHelp does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences in their 12 or more years of experience. An industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms.

Having served over 5 million people globally, and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Look at the stressful time of year, the holidays, there's work, there's family obligations, there's a lot going on in the world. You need therapy.

Give it a try. Check out BetterHelp. They've helped millions of people and you could be the next one. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crooked world. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P. dot com slash crooked world. Pod Save the World is brought to you by American Giant. We're all trying to get new stuff, look fashionable, keep up with the times, but you know what? A lot of it is crap.

That falls apart the second you wash it, not American giants. And this time of year, a good hoodie is essential, but it can be tough to find one that will last through the season. The American giant classic full zip hoodie is made to last a lifetime. So you can count on it to bring. comfort and warmth year after year slate magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made and from cotton to zipper it's made right here in the united states of america

I've got some great American Giant stuff myself. I got a sweatshirt. I got some really comfortable sweatpants. They are high quality and thick and durable. I've washed it a million times now because my kids get them disgusting. And it holds up. And it's just like the day I bought it and took it out of the bag.

The iconic classic full zip hoodie is the jacket that started it all for American Giant. Custom heavyweight fleece and side panels for mobility make it the best hoodie ever. Body skimming fit with a double lined hood and reinforced elbow patches mean this hoodie will last. Born from a commitment to support the communities that create its products.

Every American giant piece is made in America and designed to last. No exceptions at the kind of difference you'll feel and appreciate for years to come. This season, snag the hoodie that'll bring you comfort for life, the American Giant Classic Full Zip, and save 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com. When you use promo code WORLD at checkout, that's 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com. Code WORLD.

Just to your point about how complicated this will be, I mean, Venezuela is about a third larger than Texas. So this is not a small place. And as you said, like these oil fields are large. The refinery assets are spread out. There's pipelines. There's other infrastructure that you could target if you wanted to disrupt what's happening here. And you're right. Trump has basically set up a situation here where he gets to.

pick and choose how this country is run. He's going to get to pick and choose winners and losers, whether they're oil companies or, you know, sort of the Blackwater style security forces who want to say, hey, Mr. President, we'll go in, we'll control things, we'll secure things.

and eliminate any of those pesky congressional oversight questions or constitutional questions that you don't want to talk about. By the way, we should just point out that before this operation, I think it was in December, there was a poll. where Quinnipiac asked respondents if there were for or against military action in Venezuela, 63% of respondents said no.

25% said yes. So this is not popular. There's no mandate for this in any way, shape, or form. And it's certainly exactly the opposite of what Trump ran against. I mean, he's always said that the problem with Iraq was not the war itself. It was that we should have kept the oil. So in some sense, we shouldn't be surprised here, but America First was not interpreted by any of his voters as let's revive the Monroe Doctrine and revive regime change operations.

in in central and south america we should just say that like so the usse ojima i guess is just gonna well maybe they'll go to another port and then fly maduro to New York. They released a photo of him blindfolded and handcuffed in his sweatsuit, just I guess on Twitter. Pam Bondi says that Maduro and his wife have been indicted again in in the southern district of new york the charges are narco terrorism conspiracy cocaine importation conspiracy

possession of guns, conspiracy to possess guns. There's six defendants that includes Maduro's wife and son. I don't believe the current vice president is one of those defendants, which again, it does make you wonder.

But the sincerity of this being about drugs and repression. Yeah. And again, like we doubt Maduro's sincerity. It is just worth noting that like two nights before this capture, Maduro did an interview where he said like, hey, to the American people, if you want to have a conversation about anti-drug.

stuff agreements were ready. If you want Venezuelan oil, Venezuela is ready for US investment, like with Chevron, whatever, whenever, however they want. People in the US know if they want comprehensive economic development agreements, Venezuela is right here. Trump himself said in this press conference,

that he, that Maduro had tried to negotiate, but Trump said he was done negotiating. So it sounds like, you know, the U.S. could have sort of had some sort of deal if they wanted. Now, Ben, you just mentioned this. I mean. There is this very brave, very conservative Venezuelan opposition. One opposition leader is a woman named Maria Machado. She was not allowed to run in this last election, but she recently won the Nobel Peace Prize and dedicated it to Donald Trump for her.

like brave struggle against the Maduro regime. This is a clip of what Trump had to say about her at this press conference Saturday morning. Are U.S. aware of the location of opposition leader Machado and have you been in contact with her? No. We haven't. Mr. President, on Monday. I think it would be very tough for her to be there.

the leader she doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country she's a very nice woman but she doesn't have the respect so to your point ben it's not he doesn't even Try to say, look, there'll be a transition. We'll hold an election. The Venezuelan people will decide who runs their country. He says she's not respected. This woman just won the Nobel Peace Prize dedicated to him. Not respected.

Yeah, here's the thing. It wasn't just that he said she wasn't supported. You're right. He said respected. And he said it twice. And look, this is a woman who's sacrificed a lot more than Donald Trump for Venezuelans. But again, it puts the lie. When these things happen,

There is an attempt, and I'm sure you'll find some in the Republican Party, you'll find some in the American media, who will try to project onto Donald Trump their own desires for there to be democracy in Venezuela or something. He's clearly not interested in that.

He's telling you he's not interested in that. When he says respect, he means she's probably not respected by the military, which of course she's not because the military has associated itself over the years with Maduro and is kind of her political enemies. So do not think that somehow, you know, this is in any way about making life better for Venezuelans. It's about Donald Trump's interest in controlling this hemisphere.

Donald Trump's interest with some US oil companies and the largest proven oil reserves in the world. And frankly, he's... interest in having kind of power for power's sake. His ability to do this is kind of the point. In the same way that Vladimir Putin's ability to go into Crimea back in 2014 was kind of the point. I'm sending a message that we are in a new era.

of kind of territorial expansion where might makes right. I don't have to follow any rules. I can pick and choose leaders. Maria Machado is useful to me when we're building the case against Maduro. But, you know, as soon as I do this thing, I don't need the, you know, dip down as well.

Democratic opposition in the same way I needed them for legitimacy in the ramp up to this thing. And I think that that's what people really need to keep in mind here going forward. What are Trump's interests and what is he going to be focused on? Because... It's certainly not the kind of things that people in foreign policy usually talk about, which are like transition plans. Now, someone might even say, Tommy, like...

U.S. foreign policy has always been about this. We just told a story about democracy. There's some truth to that. I'm some sympathy to that argument, but it doesn't make this right any more than those past efforts that the Iraq war was launched. under a fucking scaffolding of rhetoric about democracy when it was much more about oral and geopolitics. But again, this is not about anything that Americans...

care about. And because the thing that you said in the polling, Tommy, that it's important here as Democrats, because sometimes Democrats get a little nervous when it looks like it's, you know, the first act of the war is going well. Americans don't want this. This is going to cost, it's already costing us money. It costs a lot of money to put that like Armada.

in the Caribbean. Cost a lot of money to map that operation last night. It's going to cost a lot of money to rebuild Venezuela's oil infrastructure. We're talking billions of dollars in Venezuela when that's not what Donald Trump was elected to do.

Yeah, it's not what America first ever was assumed to have been. I mean, you're right. Like there is a real politic. Come on, you naive guys. Always. There have been wars for oil, right? Like look at Iraq, whatever. I tend to not actually really agree with that. I do think. the bush regime yeah it's a meteorology with bush maybe totally dishonest uh but in

in some cases, sincere. They were just very wrong about WMD and Iraq, right? But with Venezuela, it started with this bullshit about fentanyl coming out of Venezuela, even though there's no fentanyl coming out of Venezuela. Trump has... you know, try to do this slippery thing where he pretends that drug boats that are trafficking cocaine from Venezuela are somehow responsible for killing 25,000 American lives each. It's all made up. But I think what's just.

What listeners need to understand is... Venezuela has something like 17% of the world's proven oil reserves. And Trump is now explicitly saying this is about oil. So he's finally being honest with us. Yes. But that honesty comes after. the invasion already happened. There was no public debate.

about whether or not we should invade venezuela for oil that conversation they tried to make it about drugs there was no congressional debate or congressional authorization for a regime change war in venezuela for oil they just did it and they said you know

that Congress couldn't be trusted to be briefed in advance, even though Trump said, well, Maduro and all his guys actually knew we were coming anyway. And apparently they were coordinating with his regime. So it's a big mess. And Ben, I think, you know, you sort of alluded to this, the question.

I have is what lesson will Trump learn from this and what lesson will other leaders take from this? Because I do worry that after Iran and after this, Trump is going to decide that. military action or at least airstrikes are cost-free you know there's not a big there hasn't been a big blowback yet um and maybe he decides america first now means like let's let

America expand and let's create a new empire. And I think this next clip from today's press conference gives you a sense of where the kind of empire gunpoint is pointed at next. Is there a message here for Cuba and Diaz-Canel? Well, Cuba is an interesting case. Cuba is, you know, not doing very well right now. That system has not been a very good one for Cuba. The people there have suffered for many, many years.

And I think Cuba is going to be something we'll end up talking about because Cuba is a failing country. nation right now, very badly failing nation. One of the biggest problems the Venezuelans have is they have to declare independence from Cuba. They tried to basically colonize it from a security standpoint. So, yeah, look, if I lived in Havana and I was in the government, I'd be concerned at least a little bit. You know, a couple weeks ago you said he's got to watch his ass.

And today he said he's not concerned about anything happening to him in the aftermath of this operation. So what are your messages about that? Well, he has cocaine mills. He has factories where he makes cocaine. And, yeah, I think I stick by my... first statement he's making cocaine they're sending it into the united states so he does have to watch his ass so look i mean that's just two overt threats to leftist left-wing governments in latin america that we

might invade you next i mean there's no other way to interpret that right yeah and we've and we've never heard an american president talk like this or you know rubio kind of trying to cosplay as a tough guy. And look, there's two things that I'm worried about in a kind of meta sense. First, again, this stuff always... The Empire Building always starts...

with victories. You know, the hard days come later. The violence, the civil wars, the repression, there's a tale to these things. Again, we are old enough to remember when the Iraq war looked great. when the Saddam Hussein statue was toppled in Baghdad and nobody could have predicted, or frankly, actually, some people did, but it was hard to predict how bad that would go. We just don't know what's going to transpire in Venezuela or in other parts.

of the region. And just to be like sort of open about it because you and I have talked about it offline. And the early days of the Libya operation under Barack Obama. Oh, 100%. Right? When Gaddafi was... taken out and people were celebrating that this awful guy had been taken off the scene. And that has proven to be...

And a slow rolling disaster, not just for the people of Libya, but also for the entire continent of Africa and a lot of countries in the Middle East. If people want to play back at me, things I said when Gaddafi went.

Please do, because I agree with that lesson. This stuff gets harder as the time goes on. By the way, we don't know what other countries are going to be doing there. The Chinese have hundreds of thousands of nationals there. The Russians have had a presence there. They could choose to make... things more difficult for us. And we've seen these kind of failed state places become proxy wars too. But the second point is more important, and it's what I'm more worried about.

which is the lesson he's going to take. He's going to get a lot of positive reinforcement for this. He's going to have all the Republicans saying, oh, look what a strong man you are. He's going to get a lot of the MAGA people. Some of them are sincere in their America first instincts, but some of them will be like, well, Trump...

He looks like such a strong man now. And all those kind of naysayers are just the weak people who don't understand what he's doing. The lesson he could take is then we're what? going into Panama, maybe taking the Panama Canal. Or maybe we're going into Havana to take out the Cuban regime. Or maybe we're just bombing Colombia because that leader is someone that Trump doesn't like. Or Greenland. Or maybe we're taking Greenland. And again...

Go read your history, right? I mean, you get an autocratic strongman who starts going down this slope of conquering after conquering, war after war, regime after regime. That never... ends well it usually ends either in a lot of violence along the way in those places or

in some kind of global conflict. And that leads to the other point here, which is what is the lesson that Russia and China are going to take from this? This is basically how Russia has operated since it invaded Crimea in 2014. What if they want to kill Zelensky tomorrow? And their justification is, well, you just arrested Maduro and put him on a plane. The Chinese.

What if they go to Taiwan and say, well, you know, they're a threat to our national security, just like you said, Venezuela was a threat to your national security. We are now in a world in which there really are no rules. And look, people might say, well, those rules weren't working. I don't know, like having some guardrails, some restraint.

This kind of military operation was unthinkable, even in Trump's first term when he was trying to get Maduro out. He never would have thought about doing this. And it just shows you how much this has been normalized. And he's now normalized an extra thing, which is...

No congressional authorization, no public case for it. I can just go in with the U.S. military as kind of my militia to take out a leader and say that we're going to run the place and have the oil companies in charge again. I mean, yeah, the precedent, I guess, for that is like. like the 1900s. But we went through two world wars that taught us that that kind of empire building leads you to want to make some rules.

Pots of the World is brought to you by Sundays for Dogs. New year, new you should always include eating better, right? Well, if you're upgrading and optimizing what goes in your body, then why are our dogs still stuck with the same old kibble routine? Give them real food. Give them good food. Give them Sundays for dogs. Sundays was founded by a veterinarian and mom, Dr. Tori Waxman, who got tired of seeing so-called premium dog food full of fillers and synthetics.

So she designed sundaes, air-dried, real food made in a human-grade kitchen using the same ingredients and care you'd use to cook for yourself and for your family. Every bite of sundaes is clean and made from real meat, fruits and veggies, and no kibble. That means no weird ingredients you can't pronounce and no fillers.

Compared to kibble and other brands out there, Sundays invest 50 times more in its ingredients to ensure premium quality. Because your dog deserves food made with care, not in the interest of cost-cutting. And the best part, you can scoop and serve. No freezer, no thawing, no prep.

No mess, just nutrient-rich, clean food that fuels their happiest, healthiest days so you can get more of them to share together. Listen, we love our dogs like family members. You bet. Sometimes more. Sometimes more. Often more.

Why not feed them the same kind of quality food that you would feed a cousin, a brother, a child? And, you know, watch how happy it makes your dog. Watch how thrilled they are, how much more energy they have, the better mood, the more calm and focused, softer coat, less itching, no eye boogers.

better poops, all of the above. Check out Sundays for Dogs. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to sundaysfordogs.com slash world30 and get 30% off your first three orders. Or you can use the code world30 at checkout. That's 30% off your first three orders at sundaysfordogs.com slash world30, sundaysfordogs.com slash world30, or use code world30 at checkout.

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides all the necessary tools to claim your domain, build a professional website, expand your brand and facilitate payments.

making it the ideal solution for businesses of all sizes. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences, showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or their business. Start with Blueprint AI, Squarespace's AI enhanced website builder to get a fully custom website in just a few steps.

using basic information about your industry, your goals, and personality to generate premium quality content and personalized design recommendations. With Squarespace email campaigns, all the tools you need to engage clients, promote your services, and grow your business are built in.

Set up email automations to stay connected, nurture leads, and save time while seamlessly integrating your offerings into beautifully designed templates that drive bookings and sales. Schedule emails that reach your audience at the perfect time, keeping your business at top of mind and driving long-term growth.

Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash world to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash world. Yeah, I mean, look, sort of the modern regime change operation like day one is the easiest because the U.S. special forces will win every single battle they are ever asked to fight. Right. The U.S. Delta Force.

They're more experienced. They're better trained. They're better equipped. They're better enabled by U.S. intelligence and by a trillion dollar per year military budget. Like that was never in question. I think there was some question. I remember asking these questions on the show.

about how sophisticated or not Venezuela's air defense systems might be, whether you could see a situation where there were members of the Venezuelan military with man pads, those shoulder powered missile launchers, you know, kind of like dispersed places that could take out.

helicopter or two, right, and lead to US casualties. Thank God that did not happen, right? But that's never been the issue. The issue is the United States sending the US military to solve... political problems in other countries and that is exactly what's happening here like nicholas baduro was a bad guy he uh repressed people he locked up his opponents he stole elections he ran the state into the ground he led to people's deaths he led

to mass migration. No one's arguing any of that. But the question is, is it just, is it legal, is it right to launch a regime change operation just because Donald Trump decides he doesn't like Maduro?

uh you know rubio decides he doesn't like maduro because like that's a very slippery slope it could lead to regime change wars in cuba and colombia because we're obviously threatening them but what like what's to stop him from launching it anywhere else he wants like why not north korea just because they have a nuke right what message does it send to other countries thinking about proliferation and risk so that's what i people i think are quite worried about this

even though in the early days it always looks kind of triumphant. Ben, I've seen some good statements and some pretty bad ones. Tim Kaine had a great statement out asking the right questions. U.S. Senator from Virginia. you know, sort of asking some of the questions you asked, like Trump just threatened to attack the Iranians if they attack protesters. Does that mean like we're on the precipice of deploying troops there? We know that Netanyahu was just.

at Mar-a-Lago for like the 17th time since Trump took office. There's all these reports that the Israelis are asking. either for permission or U.S. support for another bombing mission against Iran to take out their ballistic missile program. So that feels like a coming attraction. A lot of our international allies are a little more hesitant. You know, Keir Starmer is out there saying.

he wants to get the facts. He wants to uphold international law. I'm guessing he's not going to like the facts and he's going to believe that international law has not been upheld, but then not really say much about it. Yeah. There's some top EU officials. um who expressed serious concern right that was sort of like the most i saw the dial turned up but i'm going to read you one of the stronger statements i've seen and i know you know who this is from but i bet it'll surprise listeners

But there is one fundamental reason to oppose the regime change that the United States had just brought about in Venezuela. The sovereignty of states is never negotiable, regardless of their size, their power, or their continent. It is inviolable and sacred. this principle today for Venezuela for any state would be to accept our own enslavement tomorrow. That was from Marine Le Pen, the current and former sort of head of the far right party in France.

who, look, I hate everything about her. I hate her policies or views, but that is quite clear. And I think that is also the tone that I think a lot of America First voters thought they were voting for. Yeah, it's interesting with Le Pen because there's always been this aspect of French nationalism that kind of resents the American empire, right? And so she's kind of playing to both the sovereignty conscious nature of the right wing in this country, like you said.

And something that is deep inside of France. Yeah, I think, look, the thing that worries me is this kind of behavior can become contagious. And maybe it already has been. I mean, maybe the American war on terror, the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

What, you know, Israel attacking seven or eight countries in the Middle East. We've been kind of conditioned for more and more of this kind of stuff. But you're already seeing, again, it's probably not like entirely a coincidence that Trump is threatening Iran the same time that he's doing.

this and it's just like this stuff if you look at history leaders start to say well this is my time to do that thing i wanted to do like we're now in one of those periods where let's grab while the getting's good you know Putin will be using this, throwing this back in our face.

Whatever he does in Ukraine, if he wants to go into Moldova or the Baltics, we'll be hearing about this, you know? And so this is my concern of just kind of that breakdown of order. But it's not just the breakdown of order. It's that sense of if you're a strongman anywhere, it's like... Now's the time, sovereignty.

is out the window. And we don't have to respect borders anymore. And we don't even need to have the pretext of going to the United Nations. Or we don't have to have the pretext in our countries of going to parliaments for some kind of authorization. That's when this stuff gets real. dangerous. And we kind of reenter the kind of history that we kind of thought we'd left behind. That's what you kind of feel on daily today. Now, the MAGA movement may prove to be...

the biggest constraint on Trump, you know, because Republicans in Congress have not used their institutional prerogatives. And if people think that that sounds kind of wishy-washy, just think of the awesome power of the United States military in the hands of one person who doesn't have that.

anyone permission to do anything with that military like that's why not to sound like a nerd the founders were like let's not let that happen because that's how you get dictators that's how you get kings right and And so if the Congress is sidelined, the only check on Trump is going to be.

push back from within MAGA that this is not what we signed up for. This is not what we voted for. This is not lowering costs for Americans. This is not addressing, you know, what they'll make a big show of, I think probably just deporting a lot of Venezuelans back to Venezuela. You know, that's, that's why Steve Miller's up on stage, you know, He's salivating at the prospect of deporting people there.

Well, also, you know, Stephen Miller is just looking for any way to prove that we are at war with Venezuela so we can invoke the Alien Enemies Act and then deport like every Venezuelan who came here, even though a lot of them were told to come here because, you know, they were members of the opposition or they opposed the majority.

government they thought they had like you know support from the united states but here we are um you know ben one person who uh i think we just mentioned real quick because there is a question about you know the future leader of the mega movement is jd vance now jd vance remember you know he he served in the u.s military he you know is very opposed to u.s support for ukraine he has repeatedly said that you know regime change wars are bad and iraq was a huge mistake

stake, right? Like you would think he would be the isolationist voice of restraint within the administration, but he was hot out of the gate with the tweets.

He said the president offered multiple off ramps. It was very clear throughout the process. The drug trafficking must stop. The stolen oil must be returned to the United States. Maduro was the newest person to find out that President Trump means what he says. And then he said PSA for everyone who says this was illegal. And he put that in quotes.

Maduro has multiple indictments in the United States for narco terrorism. You don't get to avoid justice for drug trafficking in the United States because you live in a palace in Caracas. Now, that argument... means that anytime a president wants to depose a foreign leader or invade a foreign country, you just have to get your DOJ, the attorney general who works for you, to indict that country's leader. And then you're good to go. That is an insane legal theory.

That is like just the latest example of J.D. Vance being the most full of shit person in the United States government. Everything he claims to have stood for or learned in his young political life has been bullshit. He will just say or do whatever it takes. to make Trump happy and to get power, including now supporting this regime change war. So here we are. Yeah. I mean, first of all, they just pardoned the guy from Honduras. One Orlando Hernandez. Yeah, one Orlando Hernandez.

Hernandez, who was convicted of trafficking, like just, you know, gobs of cocaine into this country. Like 400 tons or something like that. Yeah. And you're right. This idea of using these new novel, you know, you're like. Listen how they described Gustavo Petro, the president of Colombia, right? Trump said there's a lot of cocaine coming out of Colombia into this country, and therefore he better watch his ass.

Petro, nobody thinks that guy is like some narco trafficker. And he's not a dictator like Maduro was. He's just a guy that Trump doesn't like. Well, what if he just says... Well, because there are drugs coming from that country, I'm going to say he's at fault for that. And therefore, what, I can depose him? I mean, we're not going to do this, but if their legal theory actually applied universally, the fentanyl is coming from...

China, the precursor chemicals. We're going to indict Xi Jinping for that. And the same thing on democracy and human rights. Maduro, objectively bad guy, but if you open up Pandora's box where you can just say, anybody I don't like who's committing human rights violations, we can violently depose, you'd have a list of dozens, if not over 100 world leaders that you could find a way to put on that list.

And so what they do is they post facto invent these justifications after the fact when all it's about is giving Trump the power to do what he wants. Yeah, whatever he wants arbitrarily to take control, to assume power.

uh in ways that were unimaginable i think i mean it kind of I do, you know, I'm sure we'll read some Axios story soon about how Jared Kushner experience, you know, setting up the fucking Gaza Board of Peace and all the ways, you know, that they're, you know, taking control and making money.

figuring out corrupt means to enrich themselves was kind of what facilitated and led to this you know new board of trump advisors that will be controlling venezuela going forward ben they're like this has been a a long needed break. There were so many moments throughout the course of this break where we could have broken and done a bonus episode. There was an apparent like a report of a CIA drone strike in Venezuela and some random.

Dock facility that just kind of came and went. There have been airstrikes on Nigeria. Again, this is the president who wants the president wants a Nobel Peace Prize. There are these massive historic. inspiring protests happening in iran as we speak which you know again trump has threatened to

take some sort of, I think he said like locked and loaded again, some sort of military action against the government of Iran if they use deadly force on these protesters. Though I believe they've already used deadly force on protesters. So I don't know what's going on next.

So there's been a lot that's happened, but this story is shocking to me. I can't believe what we just watched at that press conference today. I don't know anything else you think we didn't cover today that we should touch on before we end this and get this thing up. Well, yeah, no, first of all, we bombed, you know, Trump has bombed Nigeria, Iran and Venezuela.

in his first year in office. That's a pretty wild list of countries. Those are big countries that if I told you a few years ago that we'd be bombing, you thought we went through the looking glass. And in some ways we have. Look, I do want to say, again, I know people in the Venezuelan opposition. Just to kind of do the quick recap on Maduro, Chavez gets elected. democratically with democratic legitimacy for a time is quite popular

He spreads a bunch of money around. Venezuela is a place that was run in a very corrupt way, probably because it was in pardon service to an elite and U.S. oil companies. Chavez has legitimate left-wing grievances, but he takes it too far. He starts to create an autocratic system. Then he dies and hands it off to Maduro, who lacks-

Chavez's charisma already, you know, their economy was imploding because of Chavez's own policies. And Maduro's basically governed the place as an increasingly autocratic, you know, enterprise in which... as sanctions came on from the U.S., you know, he's getting more and more... violent towards the opposition to hold on to the small and smaller piece of the pie that he controls. And so I do want to acknowledge for people like who I know people who've been imprisoned in Venezuela.

I feel the sense of trepidation, though, for those people, because Donald Trump is not coming there to help you. And my concern is, well, he seems to already be in bed with the military that was repressing those people, because if those people will give us the access to oil fields, I don't think Trump cares much about how the human rights situation in Venezuela changes.

And I will say, the best case scenario, I guess, is this muddles through. In five years, Venezuela is a self-governing country with more freedoms than it had under Maduro. Even in that scenario, though, I just think... We just watched the first domino fall of what is going to be a return to imperialism for the United States and Latin America with the military at the forefront of that on behalf of U.S. corporations and oil companies.

I just, I can't, there's silver linings if it works out for Venezuelans, but there's dark clouds in lots of other places. Let's put it that way. Yeah, no, like I hear from the same people you do. And like, again, I've never once doubted the bravery of the Venezuelan opposition like you. I've known some of them.

you know, personally, or at least have friends, you know, who are very close to Leopoldo Lopez who went to Kenyan College, which is where I went and knew a bunch of people I know, including relatives of mine, like don't doubt their bravery for one second. I do think that. you know, respecting their bravery, wanting a better outcome for Venezuela does not require the United States to send U.S. service members into battle.

to do that. And I think that's like pretty clear and obvious line that sometimes gets erased on Twitter. We should note that then as we've been recording this, Delcy Rodriguez, the Venezuelan interim president, former vice president, she's delivering an address to the nation. She's reportedly taking him.

much more defiant tone than Trump suggested she would take. She said that she agreed to help the US run Venezuela, but that the US invaded Venezuela under false pretenses and that Maduro was Venezuela's quote, only president.

She said that with the invasion, quote, the masks had fallen off, revealing only one objective regime change in Venezuela. This regime change would also allow for the seizure of our energy, mineral and natural resources. This is the true objective in the world. The international community must know it.

We will never again be slaves. It will never again be a colony of any empire, whatever its nature. So she's obviously right about. So that's all from New York Times. There's a live blog of this. She's absolutely right about, you know.

the the goals of the trump administration i mean they they laid them out at that press conference trump had made it sound like president vice president now president rodriguez would be the one facilitating this process uh that speech makes it hard to believe um you have to wonder about all the factions within venezuela that are armed and again there's no u.s troop presence on the ground that we know of to to keep peace or

maintain order. So God knows what happens next. And I think that's kind of the point. Like we just released a Pandora's box and who knows which way it goes. Because she's probably navigating between wanting to save her skin with the Americans, but also, you know, she's got some people.

her shoulder. Some who are ideological want you to stand up to the empire. And look, because Trump, the mask is down, all those things she said that usually people would roll their eyes at, oh, that's just leftist rhetoric. Those are things Trump said out loud, you know, like, this is not like, like about taking the oil, you know, and so.

We're in this new phase. The other thing I do just want to reiterate, Tommy, is that what China and Russia choose to do here is also really important because she's also talking to them. There's no question. There was a Chinese envoy in Venezuela yesterday meeting with Maduro.

right yeah there are a huge number of chinese nationals and i'm sure that there's some intelligence professionals among those chinese nationals same thing with the russians there's a bunch of cubans down there this thing this is a much more complicated situation than Trump was presenting at the press conference. And this is literally act one of what is going to be a much longer play.

Yeah, this is the very, very beginning. So be wary of anyone offering hot takes on Twitter about how everything is great and how well this went. All right, I think that is it from us. Happy New Year, everybody. I'm sure we'll be talking about this. Again, early next week at...

Tuesday for Wednesday show at a minimum, but maybe earlier than that. Thank you for watching this episode or listening to this episode of Pod Save the World. Please subscribe to Pod Save the World, both on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. And thank you again.

Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor, and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our audio engineer.

Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to our digital team, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, William Jones, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Adrian Hill is our senior vice president of news and politics.

If you want to listen to Pod Save the World ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter for more original content.

and other community events. Plus find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and much more. And if like us, you're opinionated, leave us a review. Our production staff is proudly unionized by the Writers Guild of America East.

The internet is unfortunately real life. I wish it wasn't. It has completely transformed the way we interact, communicate, connect, understand the world. And those shifts now show up everywhere from our relationships to our beliefs, to our politics, to our culture.

And we should talk about it somewhere that's not on the internet, which is why I have this podcast. I'm Jon Favreau, host of Offline. Each week, I try to make sense of these forces shaping our lives, the ones that are on your phone and the quieter ones dividing our politics. I talk to strategists, authors. or watch on YouTube.