Trump’s Wartime Messaging Disaster (feat. Jen Psaki)

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Welcome to Pod Safe America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. You're about to hear my conversation with my good friend Jen Saki, former White House Press Secretary for Joe Biden and host of MSNow's The Briefing with Jen Saki.

Jenna's one of those folks I could talk to for hours about anything. But this week I invited her on because I wanted to talk to her, one former White House Comstaffer to another, about how the Trump administration is trying to sell its war in Iran to the American people and how the media has covered it. We also talked a bit about the midterms, including how important Democratic primaries in Maine, Michigan and elsewhere are shaping the future of the party.

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to defeat MAGA in this election and beyond, I have a special deal for Crooked fans. Go to Crooked.com slash yesweedan for twenty percent off of your subscription. Here's my conversation with Gensaki. Gensaki, welcome back to Pot Save America. It's great to be here. How are you? I mean, the world is a shit storm, but otherwise I'm good. Okay. We'll take that. That's a uh a caveated uh good in Donald Trump's America. Um

There are always I could talk to you anytime and unfortunately, uh, because we live on other sides of the country, we only get to talk to each other on podcasts mostly. Uh or when you were doing sold out events than those two. Yes, yes. Please emphasize we're sold out for everyone to know. Um

This there's always a good time to talk to Jensaki, but this is a particularly good time given what's happening in the world. And you know, before you were a cable news star and a White House press secretary, you also s very specifically worked at the State Department as a spokesperson and people may not know this, at the outset of the Obama administration, you were the person in charge of economic messenger during the financial crisis.

We're now in the middle of a war and a emerging global economic crisis because of said war. And so you have a lot of expertise to bring to this. And I want to have a conversation here that takes a little bit of a step back and looks at Of course what's happening in the world, but also um Like your perspective on how Trump is selling this.

But before we get to that, what's just your reaction to what was your reaction when you woke up uh that Saturday morning to discover that we had gone to war with Iran? Both your reaction is that a person, an American, and a member of the media would have to cover said war. Uh, first of all, just as a sidebar, I didn't even do this for you, but I have in my coffee is in an economic report to the President mug from two thousand nine.

A relic I got from the economic team at the time just to prove. Um Yes, that you were there. I think like so many Americans I woke up and was scared. Um, because it is always scary when you the country you're living in goes to war. Um and it is not a decision, a as you know well and I know well, that any president makes lightly to use military force, even if it's for a smaller engagement than this is. But I think I felt

Fear because um Donald Trump has no impulse control. He's not a planner, he's not a policy wonk or expert. He doesn't listen to anyone around him. And so the concern I had. once I had some coffee and digested a bit was How are we gonna unwind from this? I mean, uh, you know, even even initially, even in that first day, because the military strikes and the military action and we have the best military in the world, bar none, that is true, you know, it it's very difficult to dig out of.

what the impact of that is. And that was evident very quickly. I mean, within days.

This seems we're now three weeks into the war. It things are seem to be getting worse, not better. They are expanding, not contracting. We seem to be further away from extricating ourselves than we were three weeks ago. And as we sit here recording this on Friday morning, there is reporting that the White House is getting closer

to using ground troops. Um, talking you there's some White House aides quoted on background saying how ground troops have been used in every war. Why wouldn't they be used here? That it's not that big a deal. Just help us understand both the substantive and political impact of putting ground troops either in Iran proper or um in the islands like Karg Island in the middle of the Strait of Hormons. Well it's a very slippery slope. And so even as we've seen um the build up of troops

sending more even to the Middle East over the past couple of weeks. I think there was something like fifty thousand plus there was another announcement a couple of days ago about a couple more thousand. It is a slippery slope where it becomes kind of clear that in most scenarios of war a war

gro troops on the ground, as they say, that's where it was headed. And I think that is alarming on so many levels because that is something that is very difficult to dig out of. Once you have people on the ground, you have Um the m the military and the commander in chief and others are gonna want to do what they feel is winning. And that is again a question we don't know the answer to. What is winning here? How do we win? Um, I mean, it's a big freaking question that they have not answered.

Also, we have a different view of that than Israel, which is a a a huge, massive separate but important issue. On the political front, I mean, I think, you know, we have there have already been lives lost. Um You and I both know very well, um, and I I think we've both heard Barack Obama say this many times. I heard Joe Biden say this many times.

The most difficult phone call, the most difficult letter any commander in chief writes or should write, and I don't know how Trump feels and I know he's like devoid of human feeling and emotion in a lot of ways. is to the family of somebody who died, even in a in a moment of uh a you know, a mil a member of the military, e even when they are defending the country, even when they are doing something that is of great honor and great sacrifice, and certainly

They all are, but this is a war that no one has any idea what it's about, right? It feels like it's about his ego, it's about his feelings. And so If your these families who's eighteen year olds, twenty year olds, or thirty year olds, or your husband is going, then that impacts not just that family, but impacts communities, impacts states, um, and makes people question.

the worth of this. And then there is of course the issue that is beyond the impact on the military. And I think about the military impact in a lot of ways like States I mean just to be super political and I know we'll get there and talked about this and talked about this. Texas has the largest number of veterans in the country, right? It also has, I think, maybe the most or

almost the most number of military bases in the country. It also has one of the most interesting Senate races in the country. Now a lot of those people probably voted Republican and probably voted for John Cornyn, and maybe most of them will again. But if some of them are like, What is this about? This feels a little Iraq warlike, this feels I mean, that's you know, also Georgia, huge military presence, right? I mean these are this this is

It it can flow into that. And then and then there's of course the gas prices um issue and impact of the longevity of a war um like this. We've already seen it. I think I'm just gonna go economic nerd, but I don't have the data in front of me. You have the mug to prove it, so go. I have the mug. I love data. I mean, I think as of last night, it really depends on the part of the country, but it was like anywhere between like eighty-eight cents and over a dollar more per gallon, right? In gas.

And there is no way to change that. I do remember Amos Hockstein? We I we had him on I on like talked to him last night about it was like a little nerd I was embracing. I just like wanted to keep it going. But He w there's no way and we've seen military analysts and others say this, there's no way to end the kind of dysfunction or the dys the the d disturbance in the global um oil markets unless

the Strait of Hormuz is reopened, right? And that is either gonna require a negotiation or military action. So if you go back to the political front, we're already at eighty eight cents or a dollar, whatever it may be. It could be larger. And if Israel keeps striking places and they keep striking back in the Middle East and so there are other l like what happened in Qatar, th there there are other

Oil fields off-market could be even higher. And that is a massive political problem for Trump and for Republicans running for office.

Yeah, it's obviously um No one voted for Donald Trump for the goal of going to war with Iran. In fact, people probably voted for the if they if they voted on war at all, they voted for the opposite of that. Don't you think I mean one of the most fun well, interesting to watch is like the complete division in the MAGA baseland of over the

Right. Um Yeah. Yeah. It is it the thing is is really inter that part is really interesting because you have the high profile people like Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Sean Ryan, who's the very prominent podcaster, the former Navy SEAL, who he put out a

like a Instagram TikTok post about like just running through the quotes of all the people who said this would not happen, JD Vance, Steven Miller, et cetera. But at the same time, you have the You know, eighty five to ninety percent of self-identified MAGA voters. are okay with approve of the war with the Ren. And that is like a very interesting divide, which I'm sort of curious what you make of that divide. And whether that's sustainable or

I don't know that it's sustainable. Um, but I think it's probably just pure loyalty to Trump and his continued hold on a still a huge percentage of his of the MAGA base. What do you think?

Yeah, so I think I think there are a couple things going on here. I think one They're these are hardcore Trump voters. They're gonna be for whatever Trump is for. Right. And there's a and they're looking I we should also wear the there we have hardcore voters on our side, right? Like if you look we have

This is not the same thing. It's not that so I'm going to stipulate this before I get destroyed for saying it's not the same thing, but that we had people who, like a hardcore supportive d of number of Democrats, refused to acknowledge that Joe Biden was too old, right? Like that like we had that too, right? Despite that. Like they're like we have like you d they're just they're people like we're for our team, whoever our team is, right now.

I think there is a much greater set of hypocrisy in what's happening on the Republican side here. Yes. But like the thing that From like a purely political perspective, and I'm gonna get us to the con the messaging around this thing in a minute, but from a purely political perspective. The terms of like winning races, right? Taking the majority. Winning the Electoral College. We do not care that much that 85% of self-identified MAGA Republicans are with Trump. Right. Like that, that is not.

That is not the issue. Now, if we all of a sudden we want to start competing in North Dakota, we got to get that number to like 65. But in terms of winning, even winning in Texas, Alaska, Iowa, Ohio, that is a sustainable number. What we care about are independents who voted for Trump and Republicans who do not identify as MAGA. Because I think I think we've all in the sort of political conversation post-2024 convinced ourselves that MAGA is a movement based on a set of views, right? That it is.

It is, you know, anti immigration. It is anti trade. It is we believed it was America first nationalism smaller government, those sorts of things. It is not those things. No. It is MAGA is another way of saying Trump. What Trump is for, they are for. And that is just that we have to accept When you when you accept that reality, you start then realizing Two things. One, those people are not leaving Donald Trump anytime soon. If ever.

And that the party could look very differently after Trump. Now, I am not arguing that all of a sudden like our friends of the bulwark are gonna be like the bulwark republicanism or you know or or Mitt Romney Republicanism is coming back. I don't think that. But that it is a very open question about the Republican Party looks like. going forward because once Donald Trump is sort of out of politics.

So that's sort of my take on it. I mean that is such an interesting way of laying it out. I mean, we we are it's not it Republicans in Pennsylvania are not eight not eighty five percent mat right. And so states that we need to compete, Democrats need to compete in in twenty twenty six and then twenty twenty eight, it's not

that majority base. I know we'll talk about the electoral politics of this, but on the MAGA side, I mean, one of the most interesting characters to me in all of this is JD Vance and how he has navigated this. And you may remember I've I've been trying to think about kind of normalcy in what a vice president would do. Now it I mean, Joe Biden, when Barack Obama was president, kind of came to the table with more foreign policy experience, right? So he and he was more.

for engagement in a lot of ways, military action at a lot of times than than Obama necessarily was. So he would have probably been more front and center. Not that we would have done this at all. But it feels I mean JD Vance has been So silent, right? And when he has spoken, it's almost like he's speaking in the third person about. A war.

that his government is that the government he is the vice president for is is waging. And that to me goes to what you say. It's like it's like in his mind, he's gotta be loyal to Trump, but he also knows there's like a part of the base that's sort of his his people too, right? Who Aren't for them. It was a it's so awkward, but I think that's what's going through his mind.

The JD Vance thing is interesting because this this seed doesn't make a lot of sense because Joe Biden actually ran for president and became president. But for the almost the entirety of the eight years of the Obama administration no one thought Joe Biden was running for president. And he wasn't doing a single thing to prepare himself for running for president. He wasn't forming a pack. He wasn't going to early states. It honestly wasn't until Late twenty early twenty fifteen.

Yeah when I we were in a meeting in the situation room and the vice then vice president pulled me aside and said told me that he was thinking of running for president and he wanted that he had definitely he had not fully ruled it out yet and that he wanted to sit down and talk about it. And that was the first like I almost fell out of my chair. I was because I was surprised by it. But why that matters is and then you had Cheney.

for eight years who was never running president. So we haven't had a presidential candidate in waiting in the vice president's office since Al Gore. Yeah, that's good. And having to balance that loyalty to the president with their future political ambitions. And so we're seeing that with JD Vance. I think he's handling this incredibly poorly. And it just shows a very simplistic view of politics. Like just imagine the world where JD Vance is running

In the Republican primary, right? So Donald Trump serves his full term, doesn't go to prison. Uh JD Vance is running. There is going other people will run, right? And that one of those the the most likely candidate who is not JD Vance is someone who is running against Trump, either from the right or the left. Or maybe both.

And so JD Vance wins by being the Trump candidate, not by splitting the difference between the Trump candidate and the non-Trump candidate. Yeah. Because if he's something different than Trump, he's never going to be the purest version of something different than. And so the worst thing that can happen to him is being seen as dis so disloyal by Trump that Trump does not back him, because he needs Trump to back him to win.

Yeah. Yes. And and right now I feel like reading a couple of these stories, just given how many stories you and I have pitched between us, probably thousands, uh, where it's like a source close to JD Vam. says in a meeting, he expressed concerns about the impacts of the war, right? And then it's like, then they're on the record saying

He's support you know, he's here to support the whatever whatever they're saying. It's probably the same person. He's the same person. Let me tell you something on background. Let me tell you something on the record.

The other the thing I was gonna say about electoral politics, not that not that um elected officials in Washington are the determinant of what the politics in the country are, but one interesting thing I think that's interesting to watch in DC is Whenever this supplemental package actually comes together, right?'Cause there's been a range of reporting this week on it being two hundred billion dollars. Maybe it'll be exactly that. Who knows?

without any specifics around it. Now, Mike Johnson is like, Yeah, that sounds good, whatever he said, which is so predictable. But there are a number of Republicans kind of Telling Democratic senators on background, basically saying, like, I I don't I'm not for that. Now, we'll see what actually happens. Lisa Murkowski was a little, you know, publicly, we'll see what actually happens. But, you know, it could fail.

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Let's come back to supplemental funny because I do want to get to Trump's messaging on the war. Um, because I think that that is the precursor to the larger political conversation about how it's going. Um And it also, I think the messaging is also a proxy for the entirely messed up um

policy process that brought us to this, because if you can't explain why you did it, it's possible you didn't know why you were doing it. Um, but let's take a listen to some of the varying Trump administration explanations for what we're doing what we're doing in Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating Imminent threats from the Iranian

Regime. We knew that there was going to be an Israeli action. We knew that that would precipitate an attack against American forces, and we knew that if we didn't preemptively go after them before they launched those attacks, we would suffer higher casualties. your hand to launch these strikes against Iran. No, I might have forced their hand. Uh you see, we were having negotiations with these lunatics. And it was my opinion that they were gonna attack first.

And they would have done it to Israel. We did an excursion. You know what an excursion is? We had to take a little trip. You just said it is a little excursion and you said it is a war. So which one is it? Well it's both. Your old sparring partner Peter Ducy at the end asking that question.

Of asking real legit questions, um, which make Trump mad because they're real legit questions. So there's but as a communications professional uh who's worked on not but worked on like high national security issues, what's your um What's your sort of take on what's been happening here? I mean, first of all

I have no idea what the message is. Nobody knows what the message is. Um, in part because the message, as you know well, it's not magical. A sheet of talking points is not a magic document. It's based on the justification for why you're doing something, right? And what you want to achieve through it. And if that doesn't exist, it's really hard to write good talking points. Now there are still things that aside, like the continued use of excursion that you're like

But he means incursion. He me he means incursion, but I keep say excursion. And so it sounds like he's talking about like a a sail, you know, like a little boat sail or something. Um You know, I think what's clear w what what it's made me think a little bit about is during the Iran negotiations, um, Ben Rhodes um used to lead these kind of twice weekly um

call civets calls. So uh calls that you're in the the sit room for, um, that where you would talk about what was happening with the negotiations. and what the messaging was going to be, right? What were the parameters of what you could say publicly? How were we all explaining from the Defense Department, the State Department, the White House, CIA, not that they say a lot. Well we were saying, because you want to be singing off the same song sheet, not just for

'Cause it's better, but also for members of Congress as we're trying to get them to do things for our allies and partners, even for our adversaries. I mean, this looks like a freaking disaster, right? If you're China or Russia, you're like, Well they I'm just gonna sit back here and watch this craziness unfold. Um so

There's certainly that. It also I mean, you know, we both worked in a White House where there was a lot of memo writing, right? And a lot of red teaming, as we called it, um, which is a good process in government though. where you're sitting in a meeting and and we did that, but there were people who were national security leaders who were doing that at a much more highly consequential level than us, right?

mapping out what would the impact be of military action in Iran. Well, it's entirely predictable, any national security expert will say that it would have impacted the Strait of Hormuz. that it could have led to um the conversation about troops on the ground, that it's really difficult to actually get any of this um nuclear material out. Point being that process happens before you even are developing right the public talking points. And b and in the process of making a decision.

And because that didn't happen and it seems like Trump, I don't know the facts here, woke up on like a Friday and was like, let's do this. Um, it it looked disjointed and confusing and meanwhile people are like, I don't know what the hell's happening, but my gas is a dollar more a gallon, right? Or it's twenty dollars more to fill it up. So yeah, I I would give them a F minus on there. It doesn't go low enough to do it.

Probably their worst messaging, I think, um, of things they've done in this term. But that's just my Oh, for for sure. For like with I think without a question it's their it's their worst messaging.'Cause they don't actually have a message. It is just a rotating series of rationales that are often in conflict with each other. Yeah. Rubio saying the imminent threat was not first it's Trump saying there was an Iran was going to attack us as imminent threat.

Then Rubio says the eminent threat is actually Israel attacking Iran and then Iran retaliating against us. Then there's Trump saying, No, no, we made Israel do it.

in the first several hours after the attack, Trump said it w the purpose was for the freedom of the Iranian people. Then he said it wasn't a rand it wasn't regime change. Then it was can it could last two weeks. It could last thirty days. It could last longer. It's just there's no story and I think there was a lot to criticize in their communications.

Here in their messaging here. This is ultimately a policy problem. Well, yeah, I I guess that's sort of the question, right? This is the thing you and I would say all the time is, you know, unemployment would be at ten percent or the healthcare.gov website would not be working. People will come and say, Well, why aren't we get you know, what you know, what's the press strategy? What's the messaging? And you'd be like,

The it's not a right. It's not a messaging problem. It's not a comps problem. It's a policy problem. This one I think is actually both. Yeah. That's that's true. Um and I used to have a mug that said N A C P not a comms problem because this is You had a lot of mugs. You really you express yourselves through ceramic wear. Yes. Um

That is true. Um, and not to like um take any blame off of Stephen Chung here, who is delightful. But um but what are you working with here, right? If you're him, it's like Okay, um, why are we in this war? You know, what are the basic questions, right? Because as you all know and I know, you sit in a meeting about policy, a policy's decision is being made, and you're sitting there saying, Okay.

How are we going to explain this? And you're pressure testing the things, right? Why are we in this war? Well, because there's an imminent threat. Based on what? Also the Intel community is about to contradict us. So like how you know, there's like that doesn't even work as a comms thing, right? Okay, we're gonna go get the nuclear material. Well how? Well it's really difficult to get the nuclear material, so that's not great. So point is it's like

Their messaging is terrible and obviously they should throw themselves in front of him every time he says the word excursion. But but it it's If I and I cannot I doubt they're pressure testing things in the same way we would have or other people who are running competent communications operations would have, but they have very little to work with here because of all the reasons.

Yeah, I mean there is look, there's no messaging strategy that helps that sells a war, a protracted war in the Middle East that leads to huge spikes in gas prices. Like there is not. The place where I think you that it is fair to be critical and I will also say It's not the communications department's job to come up with the reasons why you go to war. It's the people we're supposed to have that reason before we go to war. You can't that's not our thing you can figure out extra actively. Exactly.

But where I think they did make a fundamental mistake that is making their problems much worse than they otherwise would be, and they would be pretty bad under even the best of circumstances. is that they spent no time before the war trying to explain why we would go to war. Yes. Like Trump gave the longest State of the Union in history and spent like two minutes on Iran.

Uh also that's true. And it was like what, a week before? I mean not even It was four days before. It was I think it was the Tuesday and then we went to war that Friday nights every week. I don't even remember hardly anything in it. Um Also, he did a speech which the networks gave him time for, I would just note that I don't even remember what it was about, a primetime address. And he didn't choose to do that for this. That is

That is all true. Now, what's also true, now I feel like I'm like defending Stephen Chung, which is a weird place. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's stipulate you're not defending Stephen Chung. Is uh it felt so it and we don't know and they'll there's, you know, reporting on this, I guess. There'll be more reporting.

But as much as as Trump has clearly kinda wanted to do something like this, we also don't know if like he literally made the decision two days in advance, right? You know what I mean? It's like and his communications team was like, uh okay, like here we are. So that is possible too. I don't I don't know. Yeah, it's very because you when you see in the polling, right, the polling is all very bad for.

But how bad it is really depends on how the question is asked. Like there was a poll out this morning which asked the question in terms of whether you approve of the war to uh take out the Ayatollah and stop their nuclear ambition. That polls much better than do support with the war with Iraq. And and so like like it's all bullshit because

They were Trump told us a few months ago that he obliterated not even a few months ago. He told us like two weeks before the war that he had so obliterated their new their nuclear capacity that we would have to bomb the dust, right? The leftover dust. But if you there was a there was a way, like if you want to take the country to war, you have to do you have to have a reason to do it. You have to do an immense planning process for what happens after the first bomb drop, which they did not do.

Right, they absolutely did not do they seem flummoxed by everything that's happening. But you also have to go to the country and go to the world and build a case for it. And they did they did not even try. That may have failed and probably would have failed under all scenarios. Yeah. But they didn't try. And one of the reasons why I think they didn't try.

Is the people around Trump who wanted to do this knew that if you talked about it, everyone would say, don't do this. And so they really tried to do make the biggest, most dangerous, most consequential decision a president makes on the cheap. Yeah. W without putting any of the work in to tell the story. Now, I mean it it also is why this is, I think, the most unpopular first couple of weeks of a war. Ever? Is it ever Yes, ever. Yeah.

There was no polling at the outset of the Vietnam War, but I suspect this would be even more popular than that. Right. And the interesting thing a as you will know very well ab about since you do the polar coaster as a listener, um about the phrasing of that poll, right? Is like, are people gonna care in two months that the Ayatollah is dead and his son, who's more hardline than he is and younger? Actually if they pay attention, they'd be like, I don't know that that's better, right?

And it's they're they're not really paying attention. They're paying whatever more for gas and they've lost. service men and women from their community. They care that the Ayatollah's dead. Yeah. And then it's like, we're not ending their nuclear program because they still have know how to do it and we can't actually I mean, David Sanger wrote a very nerdy but well done story about the difficulty. Uh don't worry, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time here.

And I'm not an expert on this, but I found it interesting of like They the Iranians know they've probably divided it up into many, many canisters, right? all of those canisters, like you could even if our military had to go in on the ground or the Israelis or whatever it is and get those canisters, they could drop. They could implode. Anyway, point is it's really difficult. And we don't even know where all of them And you'll never know if you got it all. You've never known it all.

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You should subscribe to my newsletter, The Message Box. I'm Dan Pfeiffer, former senior advisor to Barack Obama, and in MessageBox I break down what's actually happening in politics. Trump Maggie.

If you follow every poll and every twist and turn in the campaign, message box is for you. This isn't just hot takes. Every edition delivers clear analysis, behind the scenes insight, and practical strategy you can actually use, whether you're working on a race, organizing your community, or just trying to win the argument.

In your group chat. So if you're listening to this, hit pause, go to your browser, and head to crooked.comslash yes sweet dan because I have a special offer for crooked media fans. You will get 20% off a message box for an entire year. So go to crooked.comslash yesweetan. Dej, jag skulle ju köpa några nya palstält i lagret. Det kanske blev lite mer grejer. De hade ju allt, man hade en skribord, jag köpte en sån här, och kontorstolar, och så hade de en skit snygg.

Vi har inredning för hela arbetsplatsen. Välkommen till Arsenar.

One interesting thing I'm curious your take on as a communications staffer and a member of the media now is one of the ways in which Trump has been communicating about the war. It's not through your typical, you know, national televised press conference, although we have some one of those, or an address to address to the nation.

is that he is basically just doing a lot of communicating in one, but he's not calling anyone. He's just picking up random calls from reporters. Uh Tommy tried to call him on the show last week because his number is so available that Tommy was able to get it. Um your colleague Stephanie Rule, I think, spoke to me there last night or this morning and had a 15-minute interview with him. Just first let's start it from your perspective as a compt for what sort of agenda would it give you?

If BR if reporters were just calling Barack Obama or Joe Biden on their cell phones, like at all times, he was just picking up the call and you're discovering he took the call by the tweet. I mean a whole host of agita. Like not be able to sleep at night. I mean, it is it there's also this larger like, is access

what should be applauded when access is like Well yeah, I want to ask you about that too. Whatever. We'll get there. I have you know, but it it is um tons of agita for a range of reasons. Um first of all, I mean every president knows They should know, Trump is a little unique, everything there is to know, right? It doesn't mean about like how they're thinking about policies and the status of things and many things that are secret.

it's not their job to know entirely, although they should always be reading and stuff, what's been reported, right? What's out there. Like the difference between what is known about what happened in a private meeting and what isn't known. So you know, it's like

They should know that, but they don't always'cause they're running the country, right? So there are things like that. But yeah, it would give me a a great deal of agita, I think. Um They don't seem to though I they're kinda I mean, just watching Caroline Levitt communicate about this sometimes feels like I mean, she Yeah. It's like and now whatever it was, a week and a half ago she left on the table that there might be a draft.

Can you imagine when you were the comms director or the senior advisor, if somebody out there on a Sunday show had done that, you would have lost your freaking mind, you know? I would have marched, I would have taken, I would have met them at their house, take it, put them in a car and driven them directly back to the Sunday show to refute it.

Right. Exactly. I don't even know what you would have done. But like it it is those type of things happen because they're just it's just like they just want to please daddy, you know, and it's a crazy way to run a White House.

On the question of access, right? There, you know, I was one of the people who was pretty critical of Biden, particularly in the last couple of years, for not doing enough communicating, not talking to enough people. I've been of the view that Democrats that in this media politicians need to be communicating all the time. That approach has benefited

Trump in a lot of ways. It helped get him here. So there's two questions around the cell thing. One is: like as a member of the media, what do you make of Just the fact that we is it like is it um put it put the specifics of Trump's aside, but like is it a good thing that people can just call the president at all times? Um and then like what do you see as the limits of this as a communication strategy?

On its face, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily. I mean, it's like I'm like you I mean, I think that Anybody running for president in twenty twenty eight, all a hundred and seventeen of them, right? They're gonna have to do a ton of interviews, right? And they should, and they should talk to everybody. All of them on your show and our show. That's right. Most of them should be there. Yes. Whatever else they want to do.

But but I agree. But primarily your show and our show. Primarily your show. No bulwarp. I'm just kidding. Um they can do the bulwark just after us. Right, fair, fair. It's make them fifth. Um so um I agree with that. And like they have people have to be out there. And whenever somebody's even coming on our show, I'm sure for you guys, and they're like litigating like we can't do ten minutes. We can only do six. You're like, okay, you know.

Just wait till you have to do like twel a round round of twelve interviews when you're like on the road or whatever it may be. So I think that's a good thing. I think the thing that is challenging or concerning, and it's hard to even monitor this really, is sometimes people, reporters, journalists, talk to a president and then they feel like

giddy about it, right? They feel like, oh, I well, I can call Donald Trump and like I can talk to him and like he has gives me all this access and, you know, he calls me and teases me about my interviews or whatever it may be. And there's no way that doesn't shade how they report things or talk about them, even if it's not conscious. Now there are many people who don't do that, right? So it's but it's like it's a very hard thing to

To monitor. I I feel like I was reading this interview with um or saw it, I don't remember, it's all running together, with Jeffrey Goldberg, right? That I think he did with Ben Smith, where he talked about how after he reported on Signalgate, Trump was like You won this one. Why don't you come see me more, right?

And like Jeff Goldberg doesn't give a shit about that, right? He's not gonna like change his reporting because Trump is like, come see me. I don't know that that's true for everybody. And and even if it's not conscious, and I think that is the thing that's a little tricky. Yeah, look, I mean every president does the access thing. Like we when we were I mean we didn't work for a while the records and like Yeah, all we would we would bring in

columnists off the record all the time to meet with Obama. You'd bring in people, you know, you do on the record stuff too, but the one of the ways she just like you hope it shapes coverage. And it's not just like grifting in terms of shaping coverage. You're like the idea of the off the record conversation is to have Or the background conversation.

Like and you can di we can dispute the like journalistic ethics of participating in these things, but the argument for it from our side was you want people to understand why the president is doing certain things in ways in which he can't if he were to just that you're never gonna ask him those questions interview, but if he explains the strategy or his broad general approach to politics, policy, et cetera. You're at least interpreting the things you see him saying and doing.

Through the framework of what we're doing. Like David Plough and I, we were in the White House, we used to do a, I think it was a weekly meeting, you know, deep background meeting with the White House press. That we would do. We'll try to try to explain. So people would like like this is I want you to understand how we see the world. Yeah. So when you see what we're saying, you understand from our perspective.

Yeah, you can think it's stupid or wrong or bad or whatever else, but at least you understand what our thought process is. I think the hard part with the Trump cell phone thing, and this is unique to Trump, is There and you you sort of you hinted at this, but there is this confusing access with information, which if the president talks to you but he doesn't tell you anything. And he lies, right? Yes. Yeah. It's like what is the like value?

Yeah, it's like what yeah, that's exactly right. Like it is certainly true, and I believe this, that people should take what the president says seriously, even Trump. And Trump gets away with saying a lot of things because a lot of people in the press don't take him seriously. Like I was yelling about this with John yesterday, but Trump said that he believed that Iran was about to strike the United States and that they were gonna have

a nuclear weapon within a short period of time. That is a lie. Yeah. That is not borne out by any of the intelligence. His own DNI and CIA director would not say that under oath yesterday and We just sort of like, ah, Trump says things, you know? And so there is like I won't even take it seriously, but it's like there is something that's like uncomfortable with the breathless, like

uh selfie videos reporters are taking, which is like, I just got off the phone with Trump and here's what we told me. And it's like, well, what's the context for that? Like it what does that contradict? Like it contradicts what he said before what he's gonna say after. Like what

Like I don't know the right answer. I'm not a reporter, it's not for me to decide, but there is just something uncomfortable with Like I both want people that reporters to take what he says seriously and hold him to account for those things, but also not treat his every utterance

as like this huge exclusive get when he's just vomiting words into your phone. You know, it's like it's very hard. It is very hard. And and I think and you know, there have been moments of headlines where you're like, what the f You know, I mean it's like we're i about I mean things Trump has said but things as the administration has said that just are not true. That like there isn't enough testing of, right, and pushing of, right? And maybe that is

Easy for me to say, but it's like I don't I mean, this wasn't I guess Trump driven, but I remember when Tom Homan went in, right? And was like the new czar or whatever in uh in Mini in Minnesota. And you're like people were like, this is a a leaf a new leaf turned, you know, and you're like, is it? Like this is the guy. I mean, it's kind of yeah. Anyway, that's kind of a random example, but yes, to your point. It's a little there's something that's uncomfortable about it, even though I think

Democrats who are running and the next Democratic president should do a lot more engaging with the press, right? And not I don't mean coming into the press briefing room and doing that. Like they can, but like I mean doing a range of other things and it should be constant. It should be like daily or almost daily. And um and that's true. But yeah, i there's something that's

uncomfortable about the selfie videos after a call where it's like, and Trump says there was an imminent threat and you're like, but there wasn't, you know? So it's like And it's hard. Yeah. The the other thing about this is I remember

in I actually think I was coming to see you in the White House after the election in twenty sixteen. Oh god. And and I was in town. I c I think I came in to see you uh in my old office. Uh and then I went in to see Obama. And as I was walking in, S like Susan Rice who was national security advisor time and a bunch of the national security people had just walked out

Obama had just done a call with a world leader and they're all you know, all the goons are in there briefing'em and got these all these experts. And he said to me as I walked in, he's like, Well, we're about to find out if all of the prep you know, and the policy really matters as much as these guys say it is. And Trump Navigated, he got very lucky in his first term and was able to like half-ass a bunch of things, and nothing bad happened until the pandemic. Then something horrendous happened.

But from a foreign policy perspective, it was kind of a quiet time. But here is the example. This is the chickens coming home the roost of a president who doesn't pay any attention to policy, isn't interested in it. doesn't think seriously about these things and is surrounded by people who don't think seriously about these things, you end up here. And that applies communications wise too, which is

When you're just talking about the economy or immigration, maybe you can just like fly by the seat of your pants, say what you want here and there. But when you're talking about a war, What you say matters. And if you're just talking out of your ass every time someone calls you on the phone, you're gonna have uh like a domestic political and an international public diplomacy disaster. That's kind of what we see here. Yeah. I mean, because

It's it's not just him kind of saying weird stuff about the Texas Senate primary, right? Right. It's like You know, it's it's him throwing things out there about like, it may be over tomorrow, or it may be months, right? Or it may you know, it's like

And people kind of pay attention out there to what he says. Now, some of it, I'm not a markets expert, maybe some of it's baked into the markets. I don't even know. But like It's still for people who are trying to understand like where this is going and why and what the impact is going to be, whether it's an a an ally or or an adversary or a senator or a person with a child in the military. It's like you've no idea and it's real and it's it's not um like fun and game.

Obvious. I remember I just remember how much time we spent thinking about the things that we said, not just Barack Obama, but the White House press secretary, anyone on TV, anyone who spoke on behalf of the president, anyone in the government. how would those words would be interpreted by not just the American people and that matters a lot obviously but the the markets. Like there are times during the financial crisis where things that people said could send the market reeling. Um

How it would be viewed by other governments around the world, both friend and foe. Yeah. And then Tommy and I were talking about this the other day, but just Like as we were engaged in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the things we were thinking about a lot was how the rest of the Muslim world was seeing what the United States was doing.

In terms of what that would mean for people being radicalized against the US, how we were combating the recruiting efforts from Al Qaeda and ISIS and the rest and thinking about those things. And they're thinking about

None of those things as far as I can tell. Like It's just sort of wild to take it so unseriously. I mean, exactly. And you think about and and I remember when I was at the State Department as the spokesperson there, you think about how people in foreign capitals, right? And for every single day, yes.

They read those transcripts um because they see it as indications of where the United States is. And sometimes it's I mean, and currently it's like a lot of people are looking for other partners, looking for other kind of global leaders or global superpowers to be partners with economically uh or otherwise. Um I know. I I I the the Pete Heggseth management of all of this. I mean, it's like, is he playing Colin Jose? Is Colin Jose playing him? I don't even know sometimes. I it is

But it is there are moments certainly where anyone who's worked in a White House wants to just scream and yell about the press, right? Um, but his strategy of berating reporters for asking very valid questions about war also is I I I think people are watching that around the world, right? This is the Secretary of Defense, right? It it is it it you know, so it's not just it's certainly Trump, but it's also the some of the people around him who are contributing to the lack of seriousness.

Um, through which, you know, we're the war is being portrayed or how the US government is handling it is being portrayed, of course. This episode of Pod Save America is brought to you by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from Frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisan pastries, and fresh pastas.

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Jej, jag skulle ju köpa några nya palsält i lagret. Det kanske blev lite mer grejer. De hade ju allt, hade skribord, jag köpte en sån, och konstolar, och så hade de en skit snygg tipp. Vi har inredning för hela arbetsplatsen. Välkommen till AIP.

Let's pivot to domestic politics for a second. Um, another reason why you're an excellent guest for the show is even before you went for Barack went to work for Barack Obama, You were at the D C C C when the Democrats took the House in 2006. You've you know you've worked on a lot of campaigns in your life, sort of in the initial

To like this even before like Democrats are probably favored to take the House before the war. That's sort of if depending on how this goes or how long it stands, that's obviously going to probably not be great for Trump and the Republicans. But right now, as like we look at the the the c the main conversation about the midterms has been about the prime.

Democratic primaries, right? With the the amount of attention that was spent on both in Texas and nationally, I'm sure on, you know, your sh your network and our network as well, on the Texas primary between uh James Talarico and Jasmine Crockett. Honestly, we have spent so much time talking about the main primary. There's a fascinating Michigan primary coming up.

this w uh in a couple of months. There's another primary in Massachusetts, another one in Minnesota. As you sort of look at, you know, we w Democrats currently are a party a little bit adrift um in terms of like what we stand for. The these primaries are supposed to be, I think, a way of trying to figure that out. What what do you see sort of as the major dividing lines in the party that's sort of manifesting itself in the primaries here?

And they they it could be that the primaries are each individually different, but curious your take on it. Yeah, they do feel a little bit individually different, to me at least. I mean Maine, I know we've spent a lot of time talking about Maine. I know you guys have too and it is

What is fascinating to me about that race is that in many ways, Scram Platiner has like defied political gravity, right? Um, from what you and I maybe have lived through or known through doing many pr many campaigns over the course of years, which is like if you have a big scandal that comes out that's old, that people didn't know about, it's gonna change the perception of voters of you, right? Right. What does that tell you?

Well, maybe scandal matters a lot less than it did back in the age, the day. Maybe Trump has muted that a bit for people, right? Um also Um, people are looking for and it's so hard to describe this. I guess somebody they feel I d they identify with as being like them. Um, now is it like Oh, he's like me because I also had a Nazi tattoo I covered up. No, I'm not saying that. But just made mistakes, imperfect, doesn't feel like a politician.

I think the doesn't feel like a politician is a big factor to state the obvious. Doesn't feel like Washington. This is a big i I live in Washington or Virginia, but like it feels like a very anti-establishment, anti Washington Trend that may be universal across a lot of these races. I mean, even if you look in the polling in Michigan and we haven't seen the primary outcome yet, right? Graham Platner.

I don't know, y e without knowing what his political affiliation is, if you don't listen to like every position he has, right? You might not know if he's a Democrat or Republican. Um, probably same with Tal Rico.

And they're both very progressive on a range of issues, right? So that may be a a unifying thing. Somebody who can kind of break through and is an effective communicator. All this stuff sounds very obvious if as I say it out loud, but Like traditional old school politicians who have risen up through elected office feel less.

like this is their year to state perhaps the obvious. What do you think? Yeah. So I think there it's the the focus on Texas was interesting because I think it's the least relevant of all of the divides because I sort of see that I see there are sort of three divides that are sort of dominating.

One is center and left, right? Like with every primary has in some way a opportunity to litigate and you know an ideological. You're gonna have a more liberal candidate, a more moderate candidate. Um and pr and Talarico and Crockett were basically have the exact same. Yeah. For all intents and purposes. Um they were both sort of down the line in terms of the like what they actually support. They're kind of like down the line.

Normie Democrats in that sense. Their divide was one. Yes, was a political strategy fight. Right. Is it is it fire up the base or is the The second divide is generational, right? That is that's not a good year to bills.

That is um Seth Moulton and Ed Markey. He's just, it's like they're you see that in a lot in a bunch of these house races. You're seeing a ton of younger candidates taking on older candidates. Like that, that is a that is obviously a central space. And then the third one is inside out.

And the inside outside one i is one of the reasons why the main thing is interesting, which is And it's hard to you never know what's causation, what's correlation with these things, but as far as we can tell, Platinum is winning the prime. And see by how much is an open question. You see polls with him with a huge lead, you see polls with a narrow lead, but the gist of the polling is that Platinum has an

Now, we haven't seen polling since uh Janet Mills went on the air with an ad highlighting the Reddit post and those sorts of things. Um so we'll see if that changes. But it's just very interesting that, you know, this oysterman who has went through a brutal media cycle who um is leading the incumbent governor of the state who is uh endorsed by the D SEC and Chuck Schumer and everyone else. Like that is just and so is that is Platinum winning because he has a unique political talent?

Maybe. Is Platiner winning because he's younger and Janet Mills would be the oldest person elected to the Senate, I believe? You know, certainly in our party after everything we went through with Biden, maybe. Is he winning because she's endorsed by the establishment and Including Chuck Schumer and Chuck Schumer has a minus thirty one uh approval rating among Democrats right now. Uh maybe. So it's hard it's hard to know what that is, but there's uh

Those are sort of the things happening. I mean, every race is different, right? Yeah. Michigan has an establishment-ish candidate in Haley Stevens who's endorsed. Also also picked by Schumer. So there's that. Also picked by Schumer and the D SEC. And then you have a Bernie candidate in Abdullah Said, and then you have Belly Mora, who's not an anti establishment candidate per se. Um, but is it endorsed by Elizabeth Warren? So like that one's a little hard to tell. Yeah. Um

And then the other thing you raise that's interesting in these is, you know, communication styles, right? Like we are our voter, what are democratic voters looking for? Because a lot of these are about. We're asking ourselves these questions about who's the best person. That was what was interesting about Texas. Who's the best person to flip a red state? Who's the best person to beat Susan Collins? Who's the best person to make sure that we keep Michigan?

And they're making, you know, people are pr Democratic primary voters are projecting what they think general election voters will think. And the communication stuff comes into play with that as well. Yeah.

Yeah. And speaking of communication stuff, uh, I wanna talk a little bit about the messaging. On uh Friday's podcast I talked to Juliana Strett, who's a lieutenant governor of Illinois who just became the nominee

to uh replace Dick Durbin in the Senate. Yes, she she is going to be she would not when I talked to her, she was being very cautious to say that the Senator, yes. Yes. Uh I kept saying when I see you in the Senate, she kept wanting to point out to me that she saw an election to go there, which is what hurt she's supposed to say that.

But of course. But we we can As I said to her, if she's not in the Senate, things have gone horribly, horribly wrong for the Democrats. Bad. Very bad. Restart from scratch. And that was a primary that didn't get a ton of attention. It did also, like Texas, didn't fit exactly into the some of the categories I'm talking about, because you had two younger candidates, um, both relatively establishment figures, um, although there were some ideological differences.

But one interesting thing from that race is that Juliana Stratton ran what I think might end up being the most interesting ad of the cycle. I'm gonna play that ad for you right now. Oh yeah. Fuck Trump. Vote Giuliana. Fuck Trump. Vote Giuliana. Fuck Trump. Vote Giuliana. They said it On the south side of Chicago. I'm not scared of the biggest. Dictator. To stand up to Donald Trump, I'll oblige. And hold Trump accountable for the crimes he's committed. Fuck Trump.

That's why I approved this message. For for those who are not not watching on YouTube, the last fuck Trump comes from Senator Tammy Duckworth. Yes. And the last vote Juliana comes from Governor J.B. What do you think of the ad? I mean, I'm like, get it, girl. And I can't wait for her to be in the Senate, which she will be. But the thing is. that that message in a primary It wasn't exactly

Jasmine Crockett's, who's also an incredibly talented politician. But there was stylistically, Jasmine Crockett is like one of the most fierce call out Trump politicians. That's kind of her her aura is fuck Trump. Yeah. Yeah. Her aura is fuck Trump, right? And so that now there's so many factors in every race is uh of course, but So that won't work everywhere.

The fact that it worked in an Illinois primary, maybe not surprising. I mean, they have dealt with ICE overtaking their city. They've dealt with, you know, Donald Trump targeting Illinois because of JB Pritzker. So it works there, but I don't think that works. in Michigan, Texas and I mean, you know, a bunch of other states.

Yeah, a good friend of ours, uh, who lives in Illinois and is a big Juliana Stratton fan texted me uh the ad when it first came out to get uh to get a personal political expert's react take on it. Um and I think I think this person was uncomfortable with the ad, like was this too far? Was it you know, and I think

If you were were of a certain era of politics where the idea that you would say fuck someone in an ad seems crazy. Um but like my take on the ad was and it was bleeped on broadcast television. Yes, yes. But that's not where most people get their uh information anymore. So a lot of people saw it as just heard the fuck Trump. And my take on that ad is.

That's the that is the true belief of most Democratic primary voters is fuck Trump and they wanna he and they're mad that not enough Democrats will say it, either in their words or their actions. And it was a like in this is what Lieutenant Governor Stratton said to me was it it was a moment where she broke through. She was being massively outspent. People were not paying a ton of attention to the primary. So that all of a sudden people saw her and she did sort of

Very cleverly used it to get her own message out. Because it's like fuck Trump, fuck Trump. Oh, also, I'm Juliana Stratton. I'm from South South Chicago. I'm gonna abolish ice. I'm gonna do these things. And then it shows popular governor Jamie Prince or Senator Timmy Buck. Yeah, being the fuck Trump lady helps. And in Illinois there's no consequences for doing that because sh she's gonna win the general election. Now yeah. If Jasmine Crockett or

you know, Mallory McMorrow or Janet Mills won a primary on a fuck Trump maybe that would work in Maine, but on a fuck Trump message in a um in a purple or red state. Maybe there's consequence for that. I don't know. But um The lesson to me from it is

You have to get your message heard and you have to be willing to break with old ways of doing politics to get your message heard and take some risks. Uh because she was she was trailing by a lot at the time. So it's like, what what do you have to lose?

No, yeah. I mean and this is gonna be well, and it'll be very interesting to see and we still have some time to go, but not that long before there's a presidential primary. And it's like Uh people for people who just want to hang in there, right? And raise enough money in the first or second quarter, what do they have to do? Is it is it a fuck Trump message to hang in there?

Yeah, well that's that is the I mean, can you imagine what the democratic presidential primary is going to be like in that situation? Like I was even thinking back to the oh four primary. Which you worked on, uh for John Kerry. Yeah, I but I just remember there was like this bidding war of like

People saying tr Bush was the worst president ever, and people kept saying it like in stronger language. I think maybe at some point Dick Gephardt may have sworn. But like this time it's gonna be like Someone will say fuck Trump will somebody like motherfuck Trump just like

Motherfucker Trump and everyone he's ever been with it's just gonna get like up and up and up and it's gonna be crazy. I know. Exactly because there's gonna be a tier of people who could be great presidents but aren't as well known, can't raise as much money and are gonna have to find a way to break. Do you worry as we look at the primary that we that there's this incentive which is

Fuck Trump. Like, and I don't mean just like Trump is bad, but like a literal message of the equivalent of this is like fuck Trump is a great way to get attention and raise money and maybe even get some support. in a democratic primary, but and so you have the short term incentive to do those things. Yeah. But it has, you know, potentially long term consequences both for party branding and um and the general election for whoever wins the nomination.

Y yeah, I mean it's like fuck Trump end, right? So it's a little and the challenge, and and we're all guilty of this, is like you're gonna cover the fuck Trump ad, right? So there's a responsibility that lays everywhere to kind of cover things and have conversations out about things that go

um beyond that. I I think I'm interested to see and I gotta I I it's like not in front of me right now. You probably are more familiar with the timeline of one will know this, like what the order of states is, the the primary states and how people will have to campaign. Because the other thing that I think is going to be a challenge that that is kind of comes in partnership with the fuck Trump type of ads. Is if there are a lot of states where it's really like a money and media driven Campaign.

and you're not really required. I mean, you know, a lot of caucuses have been they've done away with them for good reason. But like, where are people gonna really have to campaign and have those conversations? I don't know that we know the answer to that yet. So That to me is an important question too, because I think that's part of what makes people stronger. Yep. It we don't know the calendar yet. And I think they have to figure it out basically by the end of this year. But

It's almost certainly going to be a more expensive endeavor than it's ever been before. Um, because you're gonna have larger some larger states at the front. Yeah. Iowa will not be at the front. I think New Hampshire still will be in some role, but we don't know that for sure. But I think it's Michigan

Georgia. A western state. Yeah. Nevada Nevada will probably be a little bit more. Nevada. Um Nevada not that expensive. Um smaller, at least two media markets. But you're gonna have some bigger states. Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina was a pretty cheap relatively speaking in terms of like media spend.

But then also that now you'll spend lone on linear TV. But yeah, the your point is it's gonna be harder for under this new map thing to be harder for someone with little money to break out and be able to like Pete Buttigie did in two thousand and twenty. Um so I think that that like and that will push people down that path. The other thing that I think is it's also we just don't know how big like I guess Trump will never go away. Right, he's always gonna be a dominant

part of the conversation. I mean, I think he will go away from the White House just before people panic and start throwing their phones into the ocean, but I think he will I think he will be out of the way. But um I do think Tr by the time we get to the general election twenty twenty eight. Trump's gonna feel a little bit like George W. Bush. Yes. Which is Yeah. What's the key to the past, right? Are you turning the page on the past?

And there'll be lots of ads of JD Vanson uh or whoever else hugging Donald Trump like we ran of John McCain and George W. Bush in 2008, but it's gonna feel old. You can kind of feel it happening right now before us. Like people are like, ugh They're over it. You know, I I mean, and maybe this is because I got to know you best when we were working for the Hopi Changey guy. But like I also think

politics often happens in cycles, right? And there's a question of Is it is fuck Trump enough, right? Or are people gonna want to feel? And I think I'm a believer in this, maybe as an optimist. That they're a part of a more positive movement. Like something that not that you can't do both, you can, but you have to consciously do both, right?

where there's a vision for the future and also something that you're excited to do with your neighbor and not like that's uplifting, right? And not just like, you know, negative, downtrodden doom scrolling. I I believe this like once again, we we are we've shared the same bias here of being people who truly learned about politics from Barack Obama. Yeah. But I do believe To the core of my soul, that the best Democratic candidate in 2028 is going to be someone who seems both tough enough.

To fight for people and fight against a broken system, and to hold the people who exploded that system under Trump to account for their crimes. But also is appealing to something bigger and better. The idea that we as a country. are better than what we have had for the last Fifteen years of Donald Trump.

Right. And that that's possible. I mean, the less that is possible. It's not, it's it's a more hardened version of Obama in 08 for sure. We've been through a lot in that time, but it there is that we are that we are better than the like counterproductive, non never-ending division in this country that we're seeing from

in our politics, in our media, in social media, that there's something better than this and that we are better than this as a country and that people will want that. I do truly believe that if we survive long enough to get there as a nation, but like and I and who that candidate is. Great question. Does that candidate exist? I don't know. Um they'll have to prove themselves, but I think that's where we have to get.

And you may have to say fuck you should say fuck Trump along the way and you shouldn't hesitate to say that. But it's gotta be something bigger than that. Don't edit yourself. Just have more to say, I think is sort of the answer um to that.

You know, I think the other thing I've thought about a little bit with this who knows this twenty twenty eight field and who will be in it and it'll be interesting to watch'cause everyone is the answer. Everyone will be in it. Everyone, your mother. Um, all of it. Is

You know, actually Tellerico said something about this um Yeah oh that reminded me of this. One of the things about Obama that I think was undervalued and again I know we're biased here, but that's that he wasn't afraid to piss some people off, including from within his own party. And not in a way that's like, let's piss somebody off tomorrow, but in a way that was sometimes essential because you weren't beholden to um

like m keeping everybody happy at all times, right? And I think Tal Rico said something about immigration in this regard and people can agree or disagree, but I think that's an interesting thing. You have to have a very tough skin to run for president and to be president. And that is one of the things I think will be interesting to watch and see as this as this starts happening next year. It's gonna be it's gonna be fascinating.

Gen Saki. I'm on our show first and then their show or b or that's that that the that's the when we say the early states you have to win, we mean Gen show in Pot Save America. Correct. That's it, really. You know? Um it was great talking to you as always. Great talking to you as always. Thank you for doing this, and we'll talk to you again soon. Good to see you. That's our show. Thank you to Gensaki for joining us.

Love it. Tommy and John will be back in your feet on Tuesday. Bye everyone. If you want to listen to PodSave America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to Cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Christmas. PodSave America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Faris Safari.

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