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¶ Welcome, Episode Preview, & Subscription
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Fabro.
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
On today's show, the Holy War rolls on. Uh tr Trump is still fighting with the Is lecturing the Holy Father about theology, and Pete Hegseth is leading the troops in prayer using a fake Bible quote from Pulp Fiction. OOOOO We'll get into all of that, as well as the latest with Trump's other war in Iran, which according to Trump is either over or just getting started, sometimes in the same sentence.
Uh we'll talk about Republicans in Congress hitting the panic button on the quote nonsense coming out of Trump's mouth. and RFK Junior's trip to Capitol Hill, where T M Z asked him about a newly surfaced diary entry, in which he writes about cutting the penis off of a dead raccoon to quote, study it later.
That's what she said?
I guess.
I don't know.
Then Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, one of the Democrats in the primary for the open Senate seat there, talks with Tommy about the race and dealing with the ICE occupation of her state. Quick reminder before we start, please consider becoming a crooked media subscriber if you haven't already, so that you don't miss out on any of the fresh, fresh content.
We're putting out just for friends of the pod. Uh subscribers get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends. Other subscriber-only shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. How's the new episode? What'd you guys talk about this one?
week. We talked about the impact of Eric Swallow's campaign imploding on the California governance race and whether Democrats are still at risk of getting locked out of the top two spots.
Which and I guess the answer is maybe I mean everyone's got everyone's gotta subscribe and tune it to Polar Coaster, but
I mean let's not let's not give the milk away for free here.
I will say, and you know, I'm I I'm willing to do this, I I was very um I was very forward leaning on Tuesday's pod, being like, No I had read the message box and I think that the math is it's I think now that Swabwall dropped out and Trump endorsed Steve Hilton, we're okay now. And Tommy's like, I don't know, I talked to some people and they're still a little worried and I was like, hmm. And now I think Tommy was right.
No, I th I think look, this is not the topic of the spot, but I think that we there's a there is still a risk, of course. I think the risk is dramatically less than it was.
You do think it's a good one.
Prior to both the Trump endorsement of Steve Hilton and Eric Swabald Trump.
And I will not ask you why, because everyone's gotta go subscribe. Uh to Friends of the Pods, so you can go listen to Polar Coaster and all of our other good stuff. You also get access to all of our excellent subsack newsletters like Pod Save America open tabs, add-free episodes of all your favorite crooked pods, and you get to feel good about supporting an independent pro-democracy media outlet. What c what more could you ask for? Uh head to Cricket.com slash friends and subscribe.
¶ Trump Attacks Pope Leo
All right, Dan, let's get to the news. The MAGA attack on the Catholic Church has somehow intensified since President Trump called the Holy Father weak on crime and warned the first American pontiff that he better, quote, get his act together. Our deeply Christian Speaker of the House and Catholic Vice President, faced with a choice between God and Trump. did exactly what you imagined they'd do.
It's important, in the same way that it's important for the Vice President of the United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy, I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.
I think he said several days back that um something about those who engage in war, you know, that Jesus doesn't hear their prayers or something. Um you know it it is a very well settled matter of of Christian theology. There's something called the just war doctrine. There's a time to every person
It's just Catholic splaining to the Pope. So much to say.
absolute arrogance of JD Vance to lecture the Pope on when it is appropriate to talk about theology and to have the audacity to compare The importance of his words as the mostly powerless vice president of the United States whose job is to attend funerals uh to the Pope is nuts. It's just it's absolutely in there are so many ways to just like there are so many ways for JD Vance to address this. And he chose the absolute worst one.
He just became a Catholic like five minutes ago.
John, he does he have a book coming out?
He does have a book coming up. I think this is this is probably gonna do wonders for his book sales, I guess. Um that book is about his his um his conversion to Catholicism, which did happen seven years ago. Um the Pope. um, who is really just the direct descendant really from Jesus Christ himself and and Peter, the first per Pope of the church, um, in Catholic doctrine.
You know, what what he says, uh that that's sort of been uh been uh church church doctrine for a couple thousand years. Couple thousand since since the calendar changed over from B C to A D, that's how long the Pope's going. Uh and J D Vance has about
seven years and a fucking book under his belt. So that's what uh that's what he went on to say, I cause I I the the full quote was crazy. We couldn't we didn't have time for it all in the clip, but Um, he said, and I think that one of these issues here is that there has been if you're going to opine on matters of theology, you've got to be careful.
You've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth. And that's one of the things that I try to do. And it's certainly something I would expect from the clergy, whether they're Catholic or Protestant. This is the tell, by the way, that he is a a new Catholic, because you don't you don't just refer to the Pope as part of the clergy. He's the he's the pontiff. He's the holy father. He is the he is the bishop of Rome.
It's like there is the theological mistake. incorrectness in what he's saying. And then there's just the political stupidity of it all. Yes. So it's like you look like an asshole.
If you were
Telling the th the Pope when they can talk about theology. You d like you to sound insane.
Yeah.
I just before we move on from Vance, because I know there's a lot more to talk about, um, the US Catholic bishops did release a statement in response to Vance. And um first of all, they talk about just war theory. This is also a response to Mike Johnson, I guess, who who's decided to uh riff on just war theory. Uh, and they said a constant tenet of of the thousand-year-old just war theory is that a nation can only legitimately take up the sword in self-defense.
once all peace efforts have failed. It must be a defense against another who actively wages war, which is what the Holy Father actually said. Quote, he does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. Um and then, this was the best line, When Pope Leo speaks as supreme pastor of the universal church, he is not merely offering opinions on theology, he is preaching the gospel and exercising his ministry as the vicar of Christ.
And like, look, it's been a long time since I've have delved into my Jesuit education. Um, but Mike Johnson doesn't even understand just worth. Because there's two parts of it. There is the just war and how and why you go to war, which is what the bishop's talking about there. And then there is justice in how you conduct the war. And that's exactly what the Pope is talking about here because the President of the United States
Threatened, regardless of what the original reason for going to war was. Even if there was a just war reason for going to war, it is not a just war if one of the possible mechanisms for winning that war is the genocide of a country of 92 million people.
Yeah. That you you were gonna wipe an entire country, all the civilians, all the women, the children, the families, everyone else off the face of the planet in service of trying to win that war. That is not a just war, and that is why the Pope spoke out.
And uh and and and someone shouted at J. D. Vance at that event, uh Jesus doesn't support genocide. And and J D Vance did allow, um, because he is Uh he's a he's a caring, thoughtful man. He said, Oh no, yes, I I agree. Jesus is not for genocide.
¶ Hegseth's Religious War Rhetoric
So thank you. Thank you, uh teacher. Um not to be outdone by his colleagues, um, Holy Warrior Pete Heggseth. uh who often sounds like he turned a little too much water into wine before his public appearances. Um he uh he compared the media's coverage of the Iran War Thursday morning to a Jewish religious sect that persecuted Jesus. Let's listen.
Jesus entered a synagogue and healed a man with a withered hand. The Pharisees came to watch, but their hearts were hardened. Even though they witnessed a literal miracle, it didn't They were only there to explain away the In pursuit of their agenda. Our press are just like these Pharisees. Your politically motivated animus for President Trump.
Completely.
He blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors.
It doesn't even make sense as a f as an analogy, as blasphemous as it is.
Yeah.
Like like is is so the uh our military is Jesus? In this scenario and and the Iran war is
True.
Trump is j Trump is just
Jesus.
And Trump and Trump and Trump bombing Iran is healing the sick.
Yes. Yes. And because they hate Jesus so much they can't recognize I. Hate Trump, they cannot recognize the brilliance of our troops.
Yes.
The troops fit into this? I guess they're the healing.
Who knows? I wouldn't I wouldn't think too hard on it.
None of the press coverage is against the truth.
No, of course it's not. Press coverage is just covering a war. Covering a war that is Stupid.
And no one is even suggesting that the military has not done a very good job of executing the goals that were given to them. They just think the war is stupid and the goals were stupid.
Yeah, what would be like uh what would be like Jesus healing person in the temple? Would it be when we blew up a a school in southern Iran and and killed a couple hundred children? Is that is that Is that analogous to um to the story of the Pharisees and Jesus?
Yeah, it's just like what is what is he doing? And there's just this other element of this, which is this is like now we're getting into Bentami uh nerddom, but The audience for this in Pete Haggs' mind is Donald Trump and no one else.
Bye.
But the audience when the Secretary of Defense speaks during a war is not just The American public. It's the world. And when you're at war With a Muslim nation. To constantly be using religious, Christian religious imagery to do it, you are that.
That is so counterproductive because it feeds the suggestion that that that can be weaponized against the United States that this is a religious war. It's a war on Islam, which is a way which is a tool that was used during the you know, it post nine eleven, the Iraq War, by You know, Al Qaeda, ISIS others to recruit people against the United States. It's so stupid.
Also we blew by just using religious imagery a long time ago. He said today, he specifically said we are fighting this war in the name of Jesus Christ. Yeah. And if and uh everything you said is true. Also, if you don't expect to get pushback from the Pope and the Catholic Church when you say that you are fighting a war in the name of Jesus Christ. This isn't like God bless our troops, God keep our troops safe.
It's nothing like that. It is like we are fighting a war in the name of Jesus Christ, which of course the Pope is like, uh, wait a minute. No, that's a no-no. That's just a no-no always.
I have a say on that.
We w yeah, they remember the Crusades? That was bad. We don't wanna we don't wanna go back to that. Um so anyway, Pope Leo, who was in Cameroon on Thursday, delivered some remarks that may or may not have been a response to all this, you can decide for yourself.
Jesus told us Blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic, or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.
¶ Trump Doubles Down on Pope Feud
Okay then. Uh good for Pope Leo. Trump was asked Thursday morning about the church's statement that Pope Leo um isn't expressing his opinion, he's preaching the gospel. Uh to which the president responded, quote, I'm all about the gospel.
Yeah.
That's what everyone says about him. Mr. Gospel.
He also said, quote, I have nothing against the Pope. His brother is MAGA all the way. Um and then when he was asked whether he'd meet with the Pope to patch things up, he said, quote, I don't think it's necessary. Day five of MAGA vs. the Holy See. What do you think, Dan?
be going well for MAGA in this case, be my take. I mean, let's not forget that what actually started this was the Department of Defense meeting with the Vatican to threaten them with military or military response for opposing the war in Iran.
Yeah.
So this is not just like a a bunch of tweets. This was a direct threat, which is possibly the most insane thing that's happened in all of the Trump years.
Yeah. Probably probably the most insane thing that's ever happened in the history of the relationship between the Catholic Church and the US government.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know what if I I don't know my historical knowledge would suggest that, but yeah, probably.
I mean it's pretty it's it's wild.
And just but also just the political idiocy of saying, you know what? I got high gas prices, I got this war going on, my approval ratings under thunder forty now. You know what would be a really good move for me? Let's pick a fight with the American Pope from Chicago. It's just like w like what? Like w
And Pope Leo not backing down, he continued to say in that speech in Cameroon, the world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. Yet it is held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters. The masters of war pretend not to know that it only takes a moment to destroy, yet often a lifetime is not enough to rebuild. It's pretty pretty direct.
Um and it's also look, Trump Trump today and that w when he was being asked questions, you could tell it's someone fine like someone tried to walk him back a little because he's like, I'm not fighting with the Pope. The Pope said Iran can have a nuclear weapon. That's the only I just disagreed with him. First of all, the Pope didn't say that at all.
Um and but you could tell he was like maybe wanting to back down. But throughout the week, I mean he called up an Italian newspaper um to yell about Georgia Maloney, the Italian prime minister, because she defended the Pope. who resides in the Vatican, which is in Italy. Um and and so he called her um he called her unacceptable and and said sh it implied she was cowardly, said I thought she was brave, but I was wrong. about George. So he pissed off his former now former right wing ally.
uh the Prime Minister of Italy. On Wednesday, the Miami Herald reported that the Trump administration abruptly canceled an eleven million dollar contract with Catholic charities in Miami to shelter and care for migrant children who come to the US with no parents. We must punish punish the migrant children because uh Trump said that Pope Leo was weak on crime and Pope Leo said, No, I'm not, I'm the Pope.
I mean I know you guys talk about this on Tuesday, but I have been laughing nonstop
Hope Leo, week on crime.
Which is like what does he think? There's some silent majority who wants a law and order pope? Like what do we do?
Pope Leo's weak on crime, weak on nuclear. He's
It's so fucking stupid.
¶ AI Jesus Meme & Trump's Image
He's he's for they them. Uh yeah. Jesus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I'm for you.
Then someone should make a uh a a trump attack out on the Pope.
I mean, it's just it's waiting there. I would love for someone to do that. I mean, we talked about AI Jesus um on on Tuesday's pod. There was another AI image. Of of of Trump of Jesus with his arm around Trump. Tucker Carlson said it looked like he was caressing Trump. Tucker Carlson, by the way, Tommy and I talked about this on YouTube. You should go check it out, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Um, but uh Tucker gave this monologue uh where he basically not basically, he did.
Compare Donald Trump to the Antichrist by reading passages from the Bible about what the Antichrist would look like if he came. Which and and sure enough it was it was uh it was a little more similar than I had than I thought it would be actually when I first when I first listened to it. Um There was also a uh an Axios story, um, that sort of got to the bottom of uh how the original AI Jesus meme came to be. Uh did you read the story, Dan?
the Bill Pulti one?
Mm. Yep. Yep. It's Phil Pulti.
Every terrible thing that Trump does starts with Bill Pulton.
Cảm ơn các bạn đã theo dõi và hẹn gặp lại.
Who, if you don't know, is the head of mortgages, basically.
Yeah, he's supposed to be the the federal housing authority, Fannie, Freddie, mortgages. And that's his
Sous-titrage ST' 501
FHFA, right. Um, that's his uh that's his official title. What he's been doing, well he's been what he's been doing is fucking up everything, but he's been trying to prosecute Trump's perceived enemies for mortgage fraud unsuccessfully. Uh he's been pissing off Scott Bessant, who has uh gotten in fights with him and almost kicked the shit out of him. Um, and apparently he was with Donald Trump and Mar-a-Lago.
Um, and uh here's what Axios reports. At some point, Pulti brought the image to Trump's attention uh of AI Jesus, the the meme. Uh, the advisors told Axios. It's not clear whether he just displayed the rendering on his phone or actually sent it to the president. Quote, everyone thought it was a joke, one of the advisors said.
And then
In in a in a smart brevity way, Axios writes the intrigue. Adding to the adding to the strangeness of the AI generated image Trump posted late Sunday was that it included a mysterious horned creature in the heavens that some interpreted as a demon though art experts cautioned against reading too much into AI Slop. But the original image of Trump as Christ like healer didn't include the horned creature. So the meme had been floating around the internet for quite some time.
But when Trump posted it, the horned creature appeared.
So let's dig into this for a second.
Giving credence to tu to Tucker's belief that perhaps Trump really is the Antichrist.
So do you
You think that Bill Poulte just gave Trump thr the a newer version of that meme, or the White House altered it, or at some point Satan himself got involved.
Honestly, none of those none of those possibilities would
Yes, in fact, the most likely one, maybe the last one.
Well I was gonna say the the one that involves the White House doctoring an image itself and trying to figure out how to add like that actually strikes me as the least plausible because that takes too much work and task.
¶ Trump's Impact on Catholic Voters
Um, so I don't think that's it. But who knows? Who knows? It's hard to say. Uh, how do you think Catholic Trump voters feel about this, Dan? Um, because I will say I I would have So I would have thought not. Uh they wouldn't be too happy about it. Um, just so people know and Catholic vote. Obama won American Catholics fifty-four forty-five in two thousand and eight. Since then, Catholics have steadily moved right. Trump won them fifty-five forty-three in twenty twenty-four.
And then I saw something rather alarming today when I read uh JVL's The Triad at the Bulwark, as I always do. Um and he said that he's on Sarah Longwell's focus group pod this weekend and he's like, Oh, I don't want to give too much away, but Um basically he said that the it was it was a lot of Catholics who voted for Trump, like Trump voter, Trump supporting Catholics. And uh they took Trump side in Trump versus Pope Leo.
Let's lay the groundwork first. There are um in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Arizona, more than a quarter of the electorate. In the three blue wall states, there's about five and a half million Catholics. If three hundred thousand of those switch their votes in twenty twenty four, Kamala Harris will be president today. Um
So like this is the Catholic vote is very powerful in this country and it's particularly powerful in the states that decide the presidency. And it's worth noting that a huge swath of Catholics in this country are Latino. Um, which is partially explains the big ship because Catholics and were basically tied in twenty twenty with Biden, then they moved dramatically in Trump's way in twenty twenty four. That's mostly white Catholics, but also a lot of it is Latinos moving in Trump's direction.
Makes sense.
Um but it's also worth noting that people's political identity is often preeminent on these things, which is why you had a bunch of Catholics who voted for Obama despite him being pro choice despite putting contraceptive care in the Affordable Care Act, changing position in twenty twelve to uh Being for same sex marriage, all of those things. So like it's you would not expect a triple voting Trump Catholic to all of a sudden change their mind because of this fight.
Yeah, that's true.
Now now having said all of that, I think this is a problem for Trump beyond just Catholics. The dumb Trump fights that we've been living with for 10 years just hit different when gas is four dollars. And when people are upset about everything else. If the economy's humming and prices are low, people will put up with a lot of idiocy from their presence.
When
Things are not going great. They're just like th this is this goes in there with like the ballroom.
the Iran war, all the other things he's doing other than solving my problems. So we so but I put it the following ways. This is bad for Trump politically. Even if a tiny fraction of Catholics in the states I mentioned turn on Trump for this, that's that has real implications for House races in those states, Senate races in those states, like the Michigan Senate race, for instance, and in 2028 if it states that way.
I also think if you're a Trump supporter who is um uh either against or unsure of this war. And you were also sort of horrified by his threat to eradicate a civil a civilization overnight. Um, and then Pope Leo speaks and you're like, Yeah, that's how I feel, and I'm a Catholic, and then Trump attacks Pope Leo, I think that's an added um sort of push in in another direction for you as a Catholic. So I do you're right. It's on like this stuff is on the margins as everything is.
¶ Hegseth's Pulp Fiction Scripture
Um, one more thing before we leave our uh holy war section. Pete Hegseth, uh who is clearly well versed in scripture, delivered a stirring prayer to soldiers at a Pentagon worship service this week, uh an excerpt of which the internet has helpfully spliced together with a monologue. Then maybe familiar to you. Let's listen.
Blessed is he who in the name of camaraderie and duty shepherd the lost through the valley of darkness.
Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness
For he is truly his brother's keeper. And the finder of lost children.
Well.
For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.
This guy's crushing it huh?
Well, it's important to point out that that's not a real verse.
It's it's based on a real verse, um, but it is when you look at the the real verse versus Samuel L. Jackson's. monologue in pulp fiction written by Quentin Tarantino, it is quite different.
Yeah, it's Quentin Tarantino took it from a samurai movie, I believe, which is originally where this comes from. I learned this in college because I was in college when this movie came out. I'm I'm old, I know, but uh we were in because I went to uh uh Jesuit University, we were in theology.
So interesting.
It was pointed out that this was not the exact right version of uh this line from scripture.
You think Pete Hagsith skipped that class, that theology class, wh whatever college he went to?
Was it before noon?
Oh, enough said. Enough said. Anyway, that's our that's our defense secretary right there. He's just sending the troops into battle with that. So good stuff.
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¶ Iran War: Ceasefire and Negotiations
So, the war that the president and the Pope are fighting about is still very much unresolved, despite Trump's repeated claims to the contrary. The U.S. is still blockading Iran's port. Iran is still controlling the Strait of Hormuz and we learned on Thursday morning that because the US and Iran are still far apart on minor issues like the fate of Iran's nuclear program, uh the two sides are looking
Who has the dust?
Uh the two sides are looking at a short-term agreement before the ceasefire expires on Tuesday that would allow for more traffic to get through the Strait of Hormuz in exchange potentially for unfreezing some Iranian assets.
Uh in better news, however, Israel has agreed to a 10-day ceasefire in Lebanon, which had just went into effect right as we started recording. So hopefully that holds. Um Trump was asked about all of this Thursday morning and gave his usual set of confusing and somewhat contradictory answers. İzlediğiniz için teşekkür ederim.
We're doing very well, I can tell you. Maybe it'll happen before that. I'm not sure it needs to be extended. John wants to make a deal and we're dealing very nicely with them. They've agreed to give us back. the nuclear dust that's way underground. The blockade has been incredible. It's been it's held. They're not doing any business. They're unable to do any business because of the blockade. Everything is gone, including their leaders. Now they have a new set of leaders
And we find them very reasonable. There's no deal, fighting resume.
No deal, fighting will resume. Um, ten thousand more American troops are headed to the region right now on top of the fifty thousand already there. So, like it is really uh I I found it more difficult today to figure out what the hell is going on than even most days because You get all this reporting that like
They gave up on the big deal. Now they're trying to get a smaller deal and a ceasefire,'cause the ceasefire expires on Tuesday. And then Trump's out there being like, We're close. We're close to a big deal. And I think I'll fly to Pakistan to Islamabad if there's a deal.
And talks could resume this weekend. And you're like, well, doesn't someone have to get on a plane to Pakistan if talks are resuming this weekend? Like, I I have no idea what's going on, but Uh, do you think from a political standpoint at least that Trump is succeeding in pretending that we've already won this thing, uh just to try to get it out of the headlines or at least stop it from being a major topic in in the midterms, which obviously
It still will be if gas prices are high, but wha what do you think?
Yeah, so let's just talk about what Trump's actually trying to do here, other than just vomit up words that make no sense. Like to the extent there is a strategy. It is he wants this war to be over. He wants the Strait of Hormuz open, and he wants to do
Nuclear dust.
He wants to do that without admitting defeat. Like he wants a win of some kind. And getting the dust it would be a win, you know, getting some sort of agreement. Now, they clearly are and he wants to keep sounding optimistic because that's the best way to keep the the markets on board.
The stock market, not the oil market. The oil market doesn't really give a shit what Trump says. It really matters is what's gonna happen over the medium term and the long term here. But he's just trying to manage the stock market. The problem is that all of that runs into reality at some point. And at some point you recognize that we have very little leverage in these discussions. They control the strait. We are unwilling or unable to do the things it would take to open the strait.
Iran could also start messing with other waterways, like all of a sudden the Houthis could get involved in the Red Sea, and then we have huge problems. And
¶ Political Impact of the Iran War
So all but all of none of that matters in the end. I think if you want to get to the political part of this, which is I think the the most damage Long term damage has already been done to Trump, which is He is a guy who said he wasn't going to start wars and now he started wars. So that's part one of the damage. The second part is there's always a moment in these presidents where voters have real questions, but they swallowed those questions when they voted for him.
And one is that Trump's kind of a nut. And he's he's erratic, he's rash, he doesn't really pay attention to what's going on and The co and we skated through without ha that being a huge problem in his first term until the pandemic hit. And then here The like this is what everyone warned about with Trump. It's a little bit like this is
what Katrina this the red war is to Trump, what Katrina was to Bush politically, which was we knew the guy was kind of a knucklehead, right? And here's what here it is. We see the the cost of it. You're seeing the cost of it here.
COVID was like that too.
Yeah, COVID COVID was, except people did not blame Trump for COVID. That was like we see that, right? And people who really paid attention see the mistakes they made with the public never held Trump accountable for COVID, which is why he almost won re election because of it.
Yeah. I think it defin I think the public definitely didn't hold him responsible for the economic impacts of COVID. I think that the way he handled that first year up until the November of twenty twenty, I think it probably hurt him.
I mean it's why he lost. It's why he lost. But it's on the m like he still lost by whatever it was, fifty thousand votes. Right. Um, you know, whether gas prices come down or not, prices are going to be higher than they were before. Any hope of some sort of economic miracle before the midterms that would
and put some wind in the sales for Republicans, that is gone now. That that just simply cannot happen. Because see if it if gas gas prices, as far as anyone can tell, are not going to be lower than they were when he started this war, even if they're not at four dollars uh a gallon come November.
Yeah. You know, if the Iranians decide that uh even though they control the Strait of Hormuz, that their economy's been badly damaged, their infrastructure's been damaged, they've you know uh Would they want to make a deal? The only kind of deal I could see them making ends up looking a lot like.
the uh Obama's around deal, the JCPOA, right? Like that they're already talking about um, you know, uh that the that the US is saying, okay, maybe we'll do twenty years of no um nuclear activity and then Iran says five. And then if they end up at ten, ten is exactly what the ob the Obama Zarat deal is. And you could imagine some kind of a deal that Trump decides to present as like the greatest deal on earth. And then when you look into the details, it is like v strikingly similar.
to the twenty fifteen JCPOA, in which case, you know, I think that like if I guess that's he'll t he'll take that as a win um and act like it's the greatest deal and then he should should get the the Nobel Peace Prize. But then it sort of begs the question,
Um well Obama got that through diplomacy and um you got that through um upending the global economy and uh killing a bunch of people and depleting a lot of our munitions and sending our military into battle and losing thirteen American lives, fifteen American lives.
I do not think the public will give him one ounce of credit.
Yeah, no. No, I don't think so. I think he'll take the credit, but yeah, they won't. Yeah, they won't. I don't think the public will either. Um but the it'll be like, you know, the the the I think the Republicans who were sort of wavering and they'll all get back on side and then we'll be on to the off to the next.
The voters or the Leads.
I think Republican elites and then I think Republican voters who were mostly on board anyway, but I think that the ones he lost we'll see. We'll see.
Yeah. I mean it like he really is only lost four points in overall approval rating since this war started. So even getting even if we were to get that every single one of those people back, it gets him two back up to forty two.
And I will say this is this would be the best case scenario for him, right? And by the way, it's the best case scenario for everyone, right? Like if there's a deal, that's that's wonderful and the strait opens and we've somehow put new restrictions on their nuclear program, like great. Um it's I mean
awful that this happened, but of all the outcomes ahead of us,'cause if there is no deal, he keeps saying, Oh, then the fighting will resume. Hegseth talked about at the briefing today, uh, yeah, we'll we still we're still threatening the power plants and the bridges. Like they can go right back to where we were. um when it was Bridge and Power Plant Day and he was threatening war crime. So that would be fucking awful, but who knows.
It's like to what end? Like that hasn't because you can destroy all those things. Like I mean Tommy talk about this all the time, but what Iran cares about is the people in charge care about staying in power. And they're in power.
Right. No.
Like that is not that's not their they just they can wait this out forever. Yeah.
¶ Trump's Economic Message Struggles
Uh speaking of the midterms, uh the Trump affordability tour continues. Took a little break. It's back on now. Uh to celebrate tax week. It was tax day this week. Uh Trump went to Las Vegas on Thursday for a tried and true roundtable, plus remark.
promoting his no tax on tips policy and broader tax relief he claims were delivered by the big beautiful Bill. The event happened after we recorded this, uh, but he did take a bunch of questions about affordability on the South Lawn as he left for the trip. Uh let's take a listen
How much longer will Americans continue to see these high gas prices?
Well they're not very high. If you look at uh what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon with the danger that entails. So the uh gas prices have come down very much over the last three, four days. I know, you know, and that's what A B C says. But the fact is that uh if you look at the stock markets up, everything's doing really well.
He just can't do it. He can't Well, yeah, ABC says that gas prices are high. Okay, sure. A B C says it. Or you could just go to your fucking gas station and look up.
The one thing you're not pulling the wool over people's eyes is gas prices. The one thing that is advertised on every highway exit in America.
And look, everyone knows what gas prices are supposed to be when you try to get rid of nuclear weapons, when you try to fight the nuclear.
Is he saying imagine how high gases prices would be if we
I did. I think I think he was he j everything is like I did better than I was supposed to do. That like that's his either I did an ama something amazing or if he knows he's in trouble.
Well, what I did is better than what it was supposed to be. Like th it doesn't make any sense. But he's he's trying to make the argument that like actually the stock market was supposed to be worse and gas prices were supposed to be higher and more people were supposed to be dead and look, look what I did. It's it's not so bad. I I I saved us. The country would be destroyed without me.
It's like he's walking up to the line of saying, Yes, gas prices are high. That sucks. And but it is a price, a sacrifice we all have to make to prevent Iran from posing an existential threat to United.
Yeah.
Like that's the honest answer, but he's incapable. I mean, that no one would that's not a that's not a deal anyone would sign up for. No. But that but Yeah. But he like can't say it. So he has to say there is this very important thing we're doing, but also gas prices are very low. And if someone tells you they're not, it's because they're
Obviously, Trump has stepped all over uh his affordability coverage by uh continuing his fight with uh God's emissary here on earth. Um, but question for you. Is it clear that a day of coverage about The big beautiful bill, the tax law, no tax on tips, affordability, bragging about low gas prices would have been better for him.
You this is the line you hear all the time from the Republicans, right? Whether it's Susie Wiles and James Blair in the White House or the Republicans on Capitol Hill, all the operatives are working on the campaign superpaxes, we need Trump to get back to the economic I'm just not convinced that that would work for a couple of reasons. One, Trump's incapable. He is psychologically incapable of delivering what would be the most effective economic.
He just can't do it. He cannot say he's what he's doing to lower prices because he can't admit the prices are high. Like that is the fundamental problem. The second problem is that this is not Trump of twenty sixteen, Trump of twenty twenty, or even Trump of twenty twenty. This is a man who is 20 points underwater on the economy and 30 points underwater on inflation. He is not a trusted messenger. The efficacy of any message is intrinsically tied to the credibility of the message.
And so Trump talking about the economy when people thought he was a he was good on the economy was helpful. Trump talking about the economy right now is nothing but noise to most voters because they do not trust him.
¶ Republicans Blame Trump's "Nonsense"
Yeah, and this whole thing about the tax bill and no tax on tips and Republicans will say, Oh, well, this part's popular and that part's popular but the fact of the matter is, um, the increase in gas prices Persistent inflation has completely wiped away any gains anyone received from uh tax cuts, middle class tax cuts.
to the extent there were middle class tax cuts in the big beautiful bill, like no tax on tips. And I think there was a story in the New York Times about someone who was like, Yeah, you know, I usually get a three hundred fifty dollar refund and I got like a a thousand dollars or so this year. But also, um way fewer people are coming to my business to to buy things because it's just it's tougher out there. And so I I I don't think he gets any credit for this. And you're right, in instead of
instead of talking about it as, hey, we made a down payment, we we helped you out a little bit, but we we need more Republicans in Congress to pass bigger tax relief or to do this for you know, like he he's incapable of doing that. All he can do is be like And I solved everything and I and everyone's rich now and gas prices aren't bad and the fake news media's telling you your life's bad, but everything's great. Like that's the only that's the only speed he has.
I I am just skeptical that when push comes to shove, the major Republican campaigns or the Republican Super Packs are gonna spend a lot of money touting the big beautiful bill on TV and Disney. They're gonna spend all of their money trying to attack the Democrats on immigration, crime, cultural issues, et cetera, to try to disqualify them because that is the only chance they have is that there are enough
Swing voters.
soft Republicans, independents who are skeptical of Democrats, that it might help, you know, tamp down their losses. But this idea that we are one affordability tour away from a Republican resurgence is a
Uh Trump does seem like he's uh coming to grips with all of this, uh with how poorly the midterms are going. Here he is uh working through it on Wednesday with uh Maria Bardaromo on Fox Business.
Do you expect the Republicans to lose seats in the House and what does that mean for your agenda?
When somebody gets elected president, that party always loses the midterms. I don't know why. I don't know why. Nobody could explain it. I ask people that are deep into the psychological world, I said, why is it that a voter votes for the opposite party? I think I had the greatest year.
Dear Hello, people deep in the psychological world.
Right. Doctor Phil. It's definitely Dr. Phil.
Someone said Doctor Oz to me.
Well I think different kind of doctor, but yeah.
Uh yeah, you're deep in the psychological Why is it that someone votes against a great president like me?
There are so many public science poly science professors right now who are like jumping through their phones to try to explain thermostat.
I was gonna say Trump discovers thermostatic public opinion. There it is. There it is. Um Unsurprisingly, Trump's fellow Republicans are starting to get nervous that uh Trump isn't exactly locked in message-wise. Um, here's Tuesday's politico headline: Republicans worry White House nonsense is hurting midterm prospects.
It also includes a quote from Brian Lanza, who's uh was a senior advisor to Trump's 2024 campaign. Uh he said, the road to victory runs through a consistent economic message. Unfortunately, President Trump ignores the roadmap. Uh no shit. Uh any takeaways from the uh from the politico piece?
It it is interesting that'cause you don't see this th that often, which is this is kind of uh tradition in midterms where the folks on the hill start to blame the White House this far out. And so that you all of a sudden you got a lot of uh
very brave Republican operatives unwilling to put their names on things to start saying this is the White House's fault. But they are correct that look, if Trump was executing his political and message strategy perfectly, the Republicans would still be kinda fucked here if like it is the set Trump's second midterm
Prices are high. There's a war in the Middle East, but Trump is doing nothing to help them. And they're they're just like he's doing nothing strategically to help them. He's not doing a lot tactically to help them. Let's not forget we are now You know, a month away from the Texas runoff and Trump has not endorsed the chosen. Wild.
on everything and that had that is good that hurts them on the margins. Right. Right. Like the the problem, I mean, they're the real thing, like the nonsense hurts on the margins. tariffs and a war in Iran, that really hurts. And that's the stuff that really matters.
There's a lot of focus on like Trump's going off the cuff again and not on the roadmap and it's like, well, the the war he started Um and the tariffs and the gas pri Yeah, like that's the it's it's not a communications problem. Yeah.
It's just he's not even trying to make things better and he's makes them s worse when he opens his mouth. And doesn't seem to care that much about what's gonna
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¶ Hungary's Orban Defeated
So with everything going on this week, we haven't had the chance to talk about the uh the big news in Hungary, uh, where autocrat Viktor Orban went down in a landslide after 16 years in power, um, despite the last-minute rally from key surrogate. and uh and Catholic splainer JD Vance. Um Orban was defeated by um Peter Maudyar, a conservative pro-EU former ally who turned against Orban and his party in twenty twenty four. Uh Maudyar campaigned aggressively on battling corruption.
Uh and dismantling the media and political machine Orban had built. He drove this home in a viral appearance on uh Pro-Orban State Television uh this week, which he said had blacklisted him until now, where he told the pro Orban presenter that he'll be working to revive independent media and that their work on the network would have made uh Goebbels and Kim Jong-un quote, lick their lips.
This is wild. Like he I've been wa w looking at his his uh his Twitter feed and um he's just like It's it's it's quite a victory lap here. He he posted uh to the Fidesz leaders, that's the the Orban's party, I say this, no matter how much you pretend that nothing has happened, we know what you have done to our homeland and to the Hungarian people. Do not doubt for a moment you reap what you sow. Um he also said that one of the first
Uh he he sort of uh tweeted the picture of him um at the appearance on the state television and he said one of the first measures of his government will be the immediate suspension of the public media's news services until all conditions for impartial and objective journalism are fully restored. um and that he'll ensure press freedom, abolish censorship and eliminate prohibited state subsidies.
Then he also he went to um meet with the president of Hungary. The president is more of a ceremonial role than the prime minister there, but this was like an Orban guy. And so he posts a picture of him meeting with the president.
And then he said, Um, I have arrived at the palace to meet the president. He's unworthy of representing the unity of the Hungarian nation. He's unfit to serve as the guardian of legality. He is not fit to serve as a moral authority or w role model. Following the formation of the new government. He must leave office immediately. And it's just like a picture of the two of them meeting, like Uh it's great. It made me think about
The the you know, what would happen if a uh if a Democrat comes to power in twenty twenty eight. But I do wonder if you think there's any lessons for um the pro-democracy uh coalition in this country on sort of both how to take down a corrupt dictator and also what to do if we win.
¶ Post-Trump Accountability & Reforms
So let's talk about the what to do if we win. Uh The victor the victory against Orban was years and years in the making in a resistance that was operating under m like much worse conditions than we are in the United States. Like we do not have state controlled media here. Yeah. Um and one way you can avoid that is by subscribing to to by subscribing to our friends of the pod at Kirk.com slash friends.
Organic mention.
Exactly. Um some somewhere Elijah's gonna we'll be cheering. Um I think the lesson for us is in response. Which is you simply cannot turn the other cheek to fascist.
cannot and that like we learned this lesson. This is essentially what Biden wanted to do. It's what Merrick Garland wanted to do until he was bullied into actually trying to uphold the law by the January 6th hearings in And w there's gonna be a massive project to dig out root and branch all of the corruption and the cr and the corrupt that Trump has put in our government. and to hold them accountable. And this is gonna be hard because Trump is probably going to pardon All of them.
Yeah.
We're going to have to
We didn't talk about the uh Wall Street Journal story from last week, I think, where uh Trump is reported as a saying in meetings that he's going to pardon everyone who's come within two hundred feet of the Oval Office that works in the federal government.
Yeah. And that
And it's it's just putting a pin on that is worth noting that the Supreme Court gave Trump immunity to commit crimes and that Trump now is now given his staff immunity to help him commit those crimes. Yep. But we have to
If you can't prosecute those people because of pardons, you have to call them out publicly. There has to be accountability hearings. They have to be named in shame. They have to be removed from their positions. We have to We have to be tough with the People with the law firms, the corporations, everyone else, the media companies who essentially engage in legalized bribery to try to win favor with Trump, the ones who are spending money on his ballroom, who are changing the programming at network.
In order to appease them, you have like and I think those people should know now, and I hope the Democrats talk about this, know now that those consequences are coming, right? There is at l at least a fifty percent chance that a Democrat is going to be president in 2029 and what you do now is something that person is not going to forget.
My head hurts thinking about the battle to come within the Democratic Party about this, because. I would bet you that a lot of the pollsters and the strategists
We'll say People that we know.
Will say, um, voters just elected ex Democrat to um to focus on affordability. And that's why they won. And they have to make sure they bring costs down and they have to be laser like focused on people's lives and their struggles and their f and And we can't be spending all this time on hearings looking back because then voters are gonna say, I elected you to do something to improve my life.
And all you're doing now is attacking Trump and Trump officials and looking backwards and we have to look forward as a party and that's the so the strategist will say that. And then everyone else will yell at them and it'll be a whole th and it might not be even after we win. It'll probably be a fight during the twenty twenty eight primary, I bet.
I don't think it'll be a fight during the primary. I think they're gonna be one upping each other.
Yeah.
We're like by the third debate someone's gonna be promising like uh you know Tarring it we'll be probably saying like stoning in the public square live streaming of these officials. You know, and look, we know we know this because there was a lot of pressure on Obama to prosecute the Bush people for torture. And then and that was a choice that the Obama Department of Justice did not make. And the arguments were exactly that was that people wanted to turn the page.
The issue here is that this is not a short-term political decision. This is a long-term decision related to the preservation of democracy. Where that if you will if you allow people to understand that
raiding our government and and breaking laws for the consolidation of power into re is something that has no consequences and that will happen time again. And we will just be pingponging back and forth between democracy and being on the cusp of fascism every couple of election cycles and that cannot happen.
I I've thought about this. Here's what I would advise, um, which is taking a taking a page out of the Trump playbook and and Steve Bannon's sort of flood the zone strategy. I think you do it all. You do as much as possible in like the first couple of weeks while you're still in the honeymoon phase. And you got like
I I saw that picture of him with the presidents like you go to the FBI, Cash Patel, you're fucking out, right? Because the FBI director is supposed to have a ten year uh ten year term. No way, obviously, Cash Patel's gonna stay there. Um, and Brendan Carr, right, FCC chairman. Like all these people
that are supposedly uh in the old world had terms that lasted uh f through different presidencies. You gotta clear them all out. Basically every Trump appointee, every person Trump hired, I think you gotta clear out of the federal government within like the first week. And because the whole prosecution thing is like you s you know.
Right. Do people get pardons? Then it's it like can states do it and the federal government doesn't control the streets. So like that kind of stuff you gotta just be careful about, I think. Um, and you can't have it you can't have it be dragging on for two years. But I do think you gotta act fast in those first in that like first month to sort of and and talk about it as rooting out corruption, right?
Um and and like you said, it is probably even more important to do it as substance than to do it as Um I'm I mean the substance sends a message, but it's not like like you just gotta actually do the work behind the scenes to like root out and like, you know, detrumpify the entire government.
And if you're doing it all at once then that's probably even better because then they'll all bitch about it and scream and and it'll be some stories like or is so and so looking backwards, but then it'll go away after a month or two and then you're off to your agenda.
My hope is that this is a big part of the project twenty twenty nine. It's not just like what who should be our undersecretary of whatever and what our global
Warming.
uh executive orders are. It is like, how do we solve this problem? And what is the playbook for doing that? And one thing that a Democratic majority in Congress can do is they can use their investigative power to get the information now.
to have it and be able to hand it to the next Democratic press or the next Democratic attorney general on day one. If any of these people you can be prosecuted, do that. But then also for the purposes of rooting the people out, holding them accountable publicly, all the above.
Yeah. And you gotta have a good, like, forward looking prospective anti corruption agenda and put in some put some reforms in place so that you can show people that this isn't gonna happen again because we're actually gonna put in laws instead of just having norms.
¶ RFK Jr.'s Bizarre Raccoon Penis Story
Last thing before we get to Tommy's interview with Peggy Flanagan, um, RFK Jr. testified in Congress Thursday for the first time this year.
during a pair of hearings, uh he's apparently doing seven altogether, uh, where Democrats grilled him on cutting health programs like Medicaid and nutrition for women and infants, his anti vax policies in the midst of a measles outbreak, And, according to Representative Linda Sanchez, quote, spending taxpayer dollars to drink milk shirtless in a hot tub with kid rock. It is it is what happened.
Um he did he did put the video out himself. Um, what he wasn't asked about, however, is a new biography about him written by New York Post reporter Isabel Vincent, which contains the following excerpt from RFK Jr.'s private journal. Written between nineteen ninety-nine and two thousand one. Quote. I was standing in front of my parked car on I-684, cutting the penis out of a road-killed raccoon, thinking about how weird some of my family members have turned out to be.
Thankfully, even though RFK Jr. wasn't pressed on the raccoon penis during his testimony, TMZ's new DC operation was on hand to bring us this.
Secretary, what did you do with the record? Where is it now?
Where's the penis now? Bear cubs, whale carcasses, and raccoon penises. Oh my!
Yeah. So can I give people a little behind the scenes here?
Yes.
Before we do the our first editorial meeting, uh we kind of jot out what the contours of the show might be. And we always call the last thing here that's a little bit of fun, we call it dessert. And on the outline did it said dessert colon raccoon penis.
Which is pr is i it could be literal uh for RFK.
Yeah, we don't we d he he has refused to answer questions about whether he ate the raccoon penis.
He was g he was pos apparently gonna study it later. This guy is fucking
For what?
Why exactly? This is our he this is our health secretary, our health and human services secretary. I was carrying it. I know you were traveling.
Is that a dead record penis in your pocket? Are you happy to see me?
I gotta say when I when I woke up and saw that you said dessert for a raccoon penis, I was a little disappointed because I know you were traveling yesterday and I was hoping that maybe you had Why would you have missed it? You don't miss anything. But I was hoping that maybe you had missed the story and I could surprise you with raccoon penis.
Yeah. No, I really saw it this morning. Um so you you got my initial reaction was oh look, dessert.
Anyway, he didn't have a lot of good answers about everything else that he's fucked up as Health and Human Services Secretary, like why did you cancel pro vaccine uh messaging public service announcements in the middle of a measles outbreak? Um and then he tried to say, Well, we're doing better than other countries and and then the
representative pointed out, no, we're actually not, that the incidence of measles has risen here uh in the last uh two years faster than anywhere else on earth. So thank you, RFK Jr., for all that you're doing for health. Um but I hope you're hope you're studying heart. And just the on I don't know. Sorry.
Look I think.
I didn't even try to.
I mean look, he has a he has an agenda. His agenda is a dead raccoon penis in every pot.
Again, dumped the bear cub in the park. after a botched attempt to skin it, that's one, um, decapitated the whale carcass. Cutting off the raccoon piece. While thinking to himself, Boy, have my family members turned out pretty weird.
Yeah, those are all plot points in a Netflix serial killer documentary.
Yeah, well, there you go. All right, when we come back poor Peggy poor Peggy Flanagan.
Yes.
Just what a what an intro. But when we come back, Tommy talks to Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan.
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¶ Flanagan on Democratic Leadership
My guest today is Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota and running to fill Senator Tina Smith U.S. Senate seat. Peggy Flanagan, great to meet you.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah. So you're running in a primary uh we've extended an invitation to your opponent, representative Craig, so we'll
Tá bom?
Back listeners when that happens. Um, so I want to start with some s like national stuff, some Senate specific stuff, and then dig into some Minnesota focused questions, if that's cool. Um a lot of grassroots voters, a lot of Democrats.
uh feel like Democrats in Congress are not fighting hard enough against the Trump administration. I'm sure you hear this all the time. Um the pushback you hear from the House side is like, hey, we have no power. I think the senators would probably say, you know, we just shut down the government for like 40 plus days last year. THS is shut down now. Uh, maybe that's a lot of fighting back in their book. Where do you stand on this debate? Are they fighting hard enough?
Well I think, you know, what I'm hearing from folks as we're traveling across the state is that people are sick and tired of Democrats fighting from a defensive crouch or governing by sternly worded letter is something we hear a lot about. And I think You know, fighting back. can take on uh a lot of different tactics. I think, you know, Senate Democrats leading on the shutdown really mattered, right? Especially after what we saw in uh in the state of Minnesota with ICE, which I'm sure
uh we'll talk about a little bit more. Um but I also think it means Being in the community, listening directly to people about how they are experiencing the Trump administration, uh, what they want you to to fight for uh when you're there, but also using your platform. And then getting out into the streets, I think that also matters, right? We had over fifty thousand people.
marching in downtown Minneapolis, um, to show solidarity but also to to speak up. So there are lots of tools in our toolbox, but um
I just think people wanna know that you're there for them, that you're fighting for them. And especially right now when we see the influence of corporate pack money, billionaires who have uh probably the biggest seat at the table in our politics, I think regular folks just wanna be heard and wanna know that when Dems come back into power, they are gonna throw down on behalf of the American people.
Yeah, I d I definitely want to ask you a lot about um the ICE and C V P occupation of Lots of Minnesota and how inspiring the response was. Um, but a couple more things. So, you know, another flash point I think you hear with Um the left and center, I mean a lot of places is whether Chuck Schumer could should continue to be the leader of the Democrats, whether Senate Minority Leader or hopefully Senate Majority Leader. Do you support Schumer's keeping that job?
Mm-hmm.
I'll say this, I feel the same way about Chuck Schumer that he feels about me, uncommitted. Uh
What does uncommitted mean?'Cause I've heard you say that before. Yeah.
Uh
I think we should have a
Is this Minnes is this Minnesota nice saying no?
Uh this is Minnesota nice, but it's saying I think we need a progressive champion uh to to lead the Senate Democrats. Uh and I think there's a an example of a lot of leaders uh who are part of uh the group called the fight club. Uh I'm sure you've heard of uh this group, right? The number one rule of Fight Club is that we're not supposed to talk about it, but right, we're gonna talk about it.
So that's senators uh Warren, Smith, uh Sanders, Heinrich, Markey, Merkley, uh, and uh you know, this group uh in Van Hollen uh and this group of folks I think are are pushing back and are not part of the democratic establishment and are really looking for those progressive fighters, I think that's what we need. And I think that's what we're hearing from folks uh all across the country who are ready, uh, are ready for for more. And, you know, So am I.
It's interesting to hear you say, you know, focus on um sort of the policy argument.'Cause I think y the other argument you hear is generational.
Yeah.
And there's I think ongoing frustration that we had this long sort of tortured discussion about Joe Biden's age and voters I think pretty resoundingly told us Uh, he was too old for another term and yet the lessons learned have not translated to the Senate. Uh, do do you think there should be an age limit or term limits for the Senate?
I think uh what we need are progressive fighters and I think there are uh folks of uh all different ages uh who uh who can take on that role. But what I'll also say is, you know, we don't have uh enough moms with kids under the age eighteen serving in the Senate. There's only four. Uh and boy can you tell by the kind of, you know, lack of uh policies that have to do with, you know, paid family medical leave, child care, making sure that, you know, kids have access to health insurance.
They don't know who Miss Rachel is.
You don't know who Miss Rachel is. That matters. Absolutely. I mean, and if you haven't been moved by an episode of Bluey, what are you doing serving in the Senate? No, I uh but I think I think that that matters that uh our Elected officials accurately reflect the communities they seek to represent, right? And so I think it matters that we have
uh more young people who are serving in the Senate. I am not running to make history, but I think it matters that, you know, we can elect the first Native American woman ever to serve in the US Senate.
Um, that's healthy for democracy and it's good. And I think now as we're seeing these primary races uh across the country, um that's good for us. It is good for the party, uh it's good for democracy overall. And Having people feel excited and engaged about politics, that's something we should all want right now, especially as we've got Donald Trump in the White House.
Every day. Uh I mean great. Yeah. Just yes. Just doing uh really uh and this is my Minnesotan coming out, really interesting things, right?
Interesting Donald. Crypto's interesting.
Yeah, that's right. Uh, I just think it's it's an exciting time for our party if we choose, right, to lean into that excitement and not, you know, get caught up with the the status quo. we are seeing it everywhere. The people are demanding more, they want more. They want folks who understand what it's like, right, to try to stretch twenty bucks through the
end of the m the month and frankly I think if we had more people in the Senate who knew what that was like, we won't have passed this big ugly bill. Uh so this is our opportunity and uh I think we can uh reinvigorate the the US Senate and the Democrats who serve there.
¶ Post-Trump Governance & Reform
You could certainly use some invigoration.
Yeah.
Work there. Um after Watergate, after Nixon, there was a wave of government reform. It was just we didn't just you know, that scandal didn't just take down a president, but it led to this like fundamental reshaping of American politics'cause people woke up and said, Oh, that was bad, let's not do that again. Do you have a night a vision for what a post Trump set of reforms could or should look like that the Senate should be hopefully working on right now?
We'll say a couple of things. I think uh there are too many folks who think, Oh, once Trump's out of office, somehow everything will be okay.
Learn that one the hard way.
Right, absolutely. And we'll go back to, you know, um sunshine and rainbows. Uh we have to be, I think, very clear about uh what the consequences need to be for Donald Trump uh and for folks in his administration, right? Investigations. criminal charges, uh what we have been through in Minnesota, there has to be uh some kind of reckoning. Um we also have seen as Donald Trump
You know, one of his first uh moves once he got back into office was getting rid of seventeen inspectors general, right? And the very people who uh police fraud. He has enriched himself. you know, his his family, uh, I think, you know, one of the biggest things we need to do is make sure that you can't get rich off of serving uh in public office.
You're not gonna bet on whether we're gonna depose dictators in Venezuela and stuff.
I mean I it's not my thing. I think uh you know, Kelsey is uh another interesting uh uh thing that exists. Um and we shouldn't be uh we shouldn't be betting on our our politics. No. Um but I would say, you know, holding these folks accountable, making sure that you can't uh enrich yourself. And then I think we have to look at reforms around the Supreme Court as well. And just
People have to trust the government again. And when I think about the opportunity to get in there, I think we will take back the House. I think we have a real opportunity to take back the Senate. And then everyone has to be really clear what their job. Right. What you gotta be in role. So what is this senator working on? What is this senator working on? How are we building a base of support for the reforms for the policies that we wanna that we wanna move?
So that once you know we get a a new president in there, God willing, in twenty twenty eight, thanks for knocking on wood, um, that we are then and ready to go and rebuild because What we watched Elon Musk and, you know, his Doge Bros do to this government, we have to rebuild. And we have to do so with a lot of intention. So it is pushing for the policies that Americans want to be able to afford their lives and making sure that uh
This authoritarianism that is just galloped into uh the White House and into Washington can never happen again. Yeah.
Do do you think Democrats should get rid of the filibuster?
¶ Campaign Finance & Corporate Influence
Oh, this is the tricky one, right?'Cause right now it's pretty helpful. But yes, I do because there are so many things that have gotten, you know Stopped, right? Good stuff, right? And I don't want, you know, Kirsten Cinema or Joe Manchin-esque people to be able to, you know, stop progress uh because they're, you know, bought and paid for by big corporations.
Mitch McConnell. Yeah. Um what about the party saying as a party, we're not gonna take corporate pack money, we're not gonna take lobbyist money. Is that naive? Is that dooming ourselves to being outspent in every election. Like what kind of campaign finance reforms do you think are appropriate?
I mean, I think the fact that corporate packs and billionaires are running the show in Washington is a fantastic reason why we shouldn't take that money. I mean For me personally, I have made that decision in my campaign and I think it really matters.
A lot for Obama in oh seven, I think.
Yeah.
It was a differentiator.
Well,'cause people get it, right? Like people people understand it. And let me tell you like I knew the corporations had a lot a lot of power in Washington. It wasn't until I ran for Senate that I actually understood just how much. And so
Wha how did you what what what did you learn in that process that kind of gave you that new window?
I mean it's just looking at How folks are like, oh, well, that's too much. Right. Or when you say like, I'm for Medicare for all. Right. People are like, oh, but there's so many folks in, you know, the health insurance industry. Yeah. And there are people. A librarian in Cambi, Minnesota, who's paying a sixteen thousand dollar deductible and just paid five bucks or sorry, five hundred bucks for a five minute med check, right? Like that's
That's real. And so I just think that this is a root of why we are where we are. Uh, that big corporations, billionaires have their thumb on the scale in our politics. in a real way. And what I would say is that I think this is the biggest contrast between myself and my primary opponent, Congresswoman Craig. Uh this is where, you know, big oil, crypto, big pharma, um, APAC.
is, you know, they're all gonna come in uh to this race. And for me, I can sleep at night because I'm not beholden uh to anybody but Minnesotans and I have integrity. But we also see in the Democratic Party as a whole, we should be the folk. who are fighting to protect the environment, not taking money from big oil. We should be the folks who are anti war, right? Not uh snuggling up, you know, to
APAC, who is A-oka with this war in Iran and what we see happening in Lebanon and Gaza, and the majority of Americans oppose it. And, you know, when we see these big corporations and corporate interests who are keeping people who are making incredibly low wage jobs, who are struggling. Um, Democrats should be the folks who are
fighting against that, not saying please contribute to our campaigns. Because I think, you know, it's Tommy what you just said, like people get it. You know, it's pretty disingenuous to say, you know, I'm gonna, you know, regulate corporate you know, cryptocurrency on one hand and then have your other hand outstretched and be like, but also wink wink nudge nudge, if you could pay for my campaign, that would be great.
People are so much smarter than that. And so that, you know, and I think that's coming for us, right? What we saw in the state of Illinois in their primary that they they just had. My my friend and my sister, fellow Lieutenant Governor, Juliana Stratton. Crypto uh spent ten million dollars in that race. APAC spent millions, right? And you know, I know that they're gonna come into to Minnesota too. But what I also know is that
People are starting to understand why this matters, right? I've been endorsed by N Citizens United in this race. And I think the best way to get big money out of our politics is to demonstrate that you can run powerful grassroots campaigns that, you know, are about the many and not the money and you can still win.
¶ Aid to Israel & Foreign Policy
Do you you mentioned APAC and, you know, the big fight in the Democratic Party about US support for Israel?
Does that
lead you to feel like we should be cutting off military aid to Israel. For example, I know Bernie Sanders has a bunch of votes this week to try to cut off specific funding of weapon systems. Like where do you land on that?
Yeah, so if I was in the Senate right now, I'd be joining Senator Sanders and in voting in support of those resolutions. And let me tell you that this was uh, you know, a year ago when he introduced um the resolutions with regards to offensive uh weapon sales uh to uh Israel, uh I was asked how I would have voted for that and I said
uh how I would have voted on it and I said I would have voted alongside my Senator Tina Smith and Senator Amy Klobuchar, uh, in support of it because those same values that I have behind making sure that kids can eat breakfast and lunch at school, right? For free. Uh is it you know, those are the same values behind, you know, supporting those resolutions. The suffering that we have seen is uh Yeah.
It's on the track.
Yeah, if there's tools in our toolbox that we can use, we should use them.
¶ Minnesota's Unique Political Identity
Agreed on that point. Um, starting to Minnesota. So some of Minnesota's neighbors, like Iowa and Wisconsin, have drifted uh Iowa, pretty far right, in the Trump era. Minnesota has not.
Mean I think we really care about each other. And, you know, we uh come from the state of Senator Paul Wallstone and everybody knows right the the bumper sticker, we all do better when we all do better, which is, you know, a famous quote from Paul. And I think people of All parties believe that in our state. We really care about fairness.
and looking out for our neighbor. And I think that's what you saw on display in the response uh to Operation Metro Surge. But I really think that that's what it's about, that folks just think you should be able to live a good life, uh, you know, make your own choices and uh just feel successful.
¶ Impact of ICE Operations in Minnesota
Bottle up whatever you got in the water over there. Um you mentioned a couple times, I mean, Trump and his cronies have spent a lot of time attacking Minnesota. A shocking amount of time, right? Tim Walls gets targeted all the time. ICE and CBP descended on the state. Um there's this obsessive focus. on Congresswoman Ilan Omar, on the Somali community, uh allegations of fraud. Did it surprise you that Minnesota like kind of had the eye of Sauron trained on it like this?
And like what has the impact of those attacks been on people who just live there? Like trying to live their lives?
So I'd say a couple of things. One, uh, you know, fraud of any kind is completely unacceptable, right? In in Minnesota. If you commit fraud, you're gonna be, you know, prosecuted for it. But I also wanna say that if this was really about fraud from the Trump administration, they would have said, three thousand forensic accountants and not, you know, three thousand IC agents. Yeah, exactly. That's right. And so the impact that this has had on our state.
I know that, you know, your listeners or your viewers probably watched the news and saw it and were horrified. But what people need to know is that it was so much worse in person. The trauma, the violence, the chaos. The things that people experienced, um A couple, I guess I have a couple stories that I'd just like to share with you. Like my little auntie, who, you know, is in her 70s. was forced off the road.
They surrounded her vehicle and she she's this cute little grandma and she rolled down her window and she's like, Hey fellas, how can I help you? Right? And they said, Where are you going? And, you know, she had a She had a a program. She was like, I literally was just leaving a funeral. You know, this is uh this is the program from the funeral. And she's like
Am I free to go? And they're like, Yeah, go ahead. But she has a bumper sticker on her car that says Black Lives Matter and she's like, I'm pretty sure that was targeted.
What authority do they have to pull some?
Zero
Crazy.
Right. And this happened all over the state. Right. We go to um I'm Catholic, uh so it's been a
We're going to do that.
Weird week for Catholics, but I have to tell ya I've never been more proud to be Catholic in my entire life.
Your suitcase depicts you as Jesus. I know.
Yeah.
Yes.
I thought it was normal.
No, I'm a doctor.
Yeah, I'm a doctor. Have you heard the theory that he w thought he was told to say it was doctored, where then he said, I'm a doctor?
I believe that theory a hundred.
I saw it on Twitter.
Absolutely. I think that's probably true. Yes.
Run off the road.
Yeah.
But you also hear stories, right, of um individuals who were just stopped in the street simply because of the color of their skin. I'm uh I'm Ojibwe, I'm Native American. We have a large urban Native population. And uh there were a lot of Native folks who are literally wearing their tribal IDs around their necks. I mean, it's outrageous. And the the children, right? Liam, Liam Conejo Ramos that
The Trump administration, right, detained in Texas. They're now back, but they're now being targeted aggressively for deportation. Um, the children. I talked to a second grade teacher who said, the biggest thing I have to figure out every day is, you know, how I manage through children who are crying at different times throughout. It's horrific. And we go to a a parish in in North Minneapolis and we've got a lot of mixed status families there. And church was so empty.
And uh on Christmas there may be forty people. It's usually hard to to get a seat, right? And so, you know, throughout the occupation, um We fed over 350 families. Uh that work continues. People are afraid to leave their homes. They've been impacted financially in ways that I don't know if they'll ever recover. Um You know and What I can't get over is that there are gonna be some children in our state.
Who have an ACE score, an adverse childhood experience score, simply because there were federal agents. In their neighborhood. Um, I don't have another word for it, but I am running to avenge Minnesota and bring justice for our people. The drawdown uh, you know, has occurred. Ice still has a presence. They're more insidious now. Uh, but this certainly didn't just focus on the twin cities of Minneapolis and Saint Paul. As we were traveling across the state, we had a a statewide tour.
And at multiple events, people's phones went off because they were all right part of uh a group that was doing rapid response, where ICE was at a daycare center, where they were at um a construction site or a restaurant. And so I think people are Starting to try to get back to normal, but this has changed this has changed us. Um And on uh Palm Sunday. It was And there were kids. crying and laughing and toys dropping on the floor, and it was like a lot of chaos, and it was totally beautiful.
Yeah, another good kid cast.
Yeah, like it just um So folks are coming back, but this is um the financial impact of the center state, uh the emotional impact, the impact on mental health, um the economy. It is uh unforgivable. And so what the federal government laid at our doorstep, they have to repair and heal and restore.
¶ Defending Social Programs & Fighting Fraud
You know, you I think you spoke incredibly powerfully to the the impossible to quantify emotional impact. I mean I I w you know for every story like Liam, there's other stories we all read of like kids who were just didn't go to school for three months, hiding in their houses, you know, and like the the
how we ever fix that, you know, like how we ever be able to help those kids readjust and not be afraid. You also mentioned the just pure economic impact. I mean, I read that businesses in Minneapolis and St. Paul were reporting three hundred million dollars in losses. Um how how do they recover from that? Or how are they how are you guys help able to help them recover from that?
You know, I governed uh under under Covid. And uh we at least had a More of a partnership than an adversary, um, and had resources. Uh and now, right, it's the the folks uh who cause this chaos and violence and killed two Minnesotans, right, who are supposed to be the ones who are our partners in recovery. Um, I will tell you that we have watched Minnesotan step up in a major way. Uh mutual aid. people who are standing outside of daycares and schools, um, you know
In their neighborhoods, there's literally people who stand outside of our parish every Sunday just to make sure that we can worship safely. Um the financial contributions have been incredible, philanthropy has responded, um, but it's not enough. And at the state level, um, you know, there's there are some things that we can do. Uh I am hopeful that there will be some rental assistance uh that we'll be able to to get past this legislative session.
Uh but we have divided government or tie in our in our house and so um that will be difficult. But the recovery is gonna be long. And I think this again is one of the reasons why uh you know, we need folks in Congress, uh, and Senate who understand uh the need for investment in this recovery. We can start by clying back the seventy five billion dollars that was given to ICE to terrorize Minnesotans. It's a good place to start place to start.
I like that idea. I mean i it as you know better than than I do, Minnesota has a reputation, a well earned one, for being a generous place to live because of all the social services. Um uh and as I mentioned now, I mean the the Minnesotans are facing all these accusations of fraud, maybe up to a billion dollars worth of fraud. Republicans are using those allegations, those instances
To try to undercut the entire like concept of a welfare state, right? To suggest that all governments are corrupt and we're wasting your money. And why don't we just give a big tax cut to everybody, hint the billionaires, and claw it all back, right? How do you how do you think we can fight back? the kind of governance that you and I believe in.
¶ Personal Story: Value of Social Programs
For sure. Well I'd say a couple of things. One, um, you know, like I said, the fraud is completely unacceptable. Um I'm a re recovering executive director and will tell you, uh, of Children's Defense Fund Minnesota. So people Stealing money from the most vulnerable folks in our state um makes me pretty angry. Uh and so, you know, the governor and the legislature have uh put in place um policies to stop fraud to prevent fraud um
And I still have hope that this legislative session there'll be more that's able to get done. Republicans have voted down uh several measures, right, uh that would um be helpful when it com came to combating fraud. And so Uh I hope that their better angels will arrive and uh they will vote in favor of some of these policies because I think
Better angels like JD Vance. You want him to come. You've mentioned going to church a few times. You meant what did you think of J D Vance saying um the Pope shouldn't weigh in on war?
If the Pope was mad at me. And this pope specifically I would die. And like if my own priest, right, was mad at me, I would feel like just or disappointed in me. Yeah. Like that would be the worst.
Yeah.
The Pope was mad at me, I would just be like and pack it in. Like I'd be like, That's it, I gotta go.
Yeah, I mean we've we've all accused I think J D Vance of sort of selling his political soul to get into Donald Trump's graces and do anything for power, but he really
Doubling down here. But I think like speaking of JD Vance, of someone who grew up on the margins and has completely had his brain sucked out and forgotten where he comes from, right? This for me, I think, is also really important for us to talk about why these programs matter, right? I'm a kid who, you know, moved to the community of St. Louis Park, where I still live with my family. My mom had a Section 8 housing voucher, and that's how she did it. That's how we paid the rent.
Snap, which back in the day we called food stamps, was how we kept food on the table. I was that kid with a different colored lunch ticket. um and Medicaid or what's known as medical assistance in Minnesota was what kept me alive. I missed a lot of school. I was sometimes in the hospital more than I was out in elementary school. And so I am alive.
because of those programs. And when I think about, you know, my mom She worked so hard and she went back to school and was able to do so because of the child care assistance program. She went back to school, she got her certificate in phlebotomy. Um she's a professional vampire, as we like to t to say. And I remember when she walked across the stage. And she got her diploma. She was in like a bright blue cap and gown. And it felt like I was walking across that stage.
All of those investments helped to lift my family towards the middle class. And now I get to pay that forward and pay it back and serve. That's what we have to talk about, right? And for children. Our seniors. People who don't make enough money to qualify, right, for for, you know, or get health care through their employer. We can't forget about people.
And that I think is what I hope still makes us Minnesotans and still makes us Americans is that we care about each other and that We're gonna wrap our arms around you when you need help. And then you're gonna you're gonna pay that back. And that I think is one of the things that's just completely missing from this conversation.
¶ Paul Wellstone's Political Legacy
Just hearing you talk, I hear um I can tell you worked for Paul Wellstone. I mean, odds are you did if you're in Minnesota politics, right? D for those who don't know Paul Wellstone was, I mean uh truly one of the more most inspiring people in political life when I was sort of like coming up in politics and working on the hill. I desperately wanted to work for him. He was killed tragically. Can you just talk about Paul Wellstone?
what he meant to you, like kind of how he shaped your career in the course of Minnesota politics.
I exist because of Paul Wallstrom. Um I uh I was literally driving past the Wellstrone for Senate office in two thousand and two, my senior year of college at the University of Minnesota. And I was like, you know what? I like Paul Wallstone. Like I'm just gonna stop.
Really?
Popped in. And again, I'm now I know as my friend Chris uh was like, Hey, are you here to volunteer? And I was like, Oh, I guess. Sure. Okay. And I stuffed envelopes, uh, which isn't really a thing we do anymore. Um but yeah, I stuffed envelopes for two hours with like complete strangers. And I was like, This is amazing. And I went back
every single day. And so I started off doing, you know, tasks that just needed to be done. And then um ended up uh leading our urban native uh organizing work, which, you know, as you know is how things happen. Right.
Suddenly you're running.
Exactly.
Here's more work.
That's right. And so um You know, I was so moved by that experience and really just like seeing real people. And who and everybody felt like that's our guy, right? Paul's our guy. He's our senator. If it's the native community, the Somali community, folks up on the Iron Range, like everybody claimed. Um and it was because He spent time with people all over the state.
And really like listened to them and met them and cared for them. And that is, you know, when we talk about politics the Wellstone way, right? That's what it's about. It's about making sure that you're meeting people where you're at, they're at. And that the policies that you push for are directly informed by the people who are most impacted. And I remember this moment. When after he had died and uh Walter Mondale, um former vice president, uh was running in his place and so
We were had to handmake a bunch of signs. And I'd marker all over my arm and it was like hot in the back room and it was, you know, and I looked around this the room and it was full of people from all different walks of life. I was like, oh this.
This is what I'm supposed to do. And I didn't think at the time at all that it meant run for political office. I just thought it meant like I'm gonna be part of campaigns and and organizing work. Um And then I was taken under uh the wing of a lot of Wellstone campaign folks. And worked at Wallstone Action for almost a decade afterwards, training people, tens of thousands of people across the country to run for political.
Uh if people want to have their own um wellstone moment working for you, where do they go? How can they do it?
Sure, folks can visit Peggyflanagan.com. We'd love to have you on Team Peggy. It's gonna take all of us.
Well, thank you for coming in. It's great to get to talk to you.
Yeah.
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¶ Conclusion and Thank You
That's our show for today. Thanks to Peggy Flanagan for coming on. Dan will be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with David Pacman. Have a good weekend, everybody.
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