J. Edgar Boozer

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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Faver. Un to I wow, it was enthusiastic. East. Let's go! Well, on today's show, we're gonna talk about Trump's premature victory lap on Iran, his attempts to win back Joe Rogan with psychedelics, and Cash Patel suing the Atlantic because over two dozen people basically said he's a paranoid idiot who drinks too much.

Uh we'll also cover what was a big weekend for potential Democratic presidential contenders who are very much stepping up their public appearances and honing their stump speeches. Then Ilan Goldenberg of J Street talks to Tommy about how pro-Israel progressives are trying to make their case.

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Donald Trump spent Friday counting all of his chickens before they hatched, firing off a series of manic all caps posts where he announced that Iran had agreed to quote never close the Strait of Hormuz again. would turn over all their enriched uranium, would receive no money for it, would remove all sea mines, and that Israel would be prohibited from bombing Lebanon any longer. Uh Trump then continued his premature celebration at a TPUSA event in Arizona, where he said this.

Iran has just announced that the Strait of Hormuz is fully open and ready for business. This process should go very quickly and that most of the points are already negotiated and agreed to. You'll be very happy. The USA will get all nuclear dust. You know what the nuclear dust is? that white powdery substance created by our B two bombers, those great B two bombers, late one evening Seven months ago. No money will exchange hands in any way, shape, or form.

So, uh right after this, maybe as he was speaking, everything appeared to fall apart. Uh the Iranians said that all of Trump's claims were false, closed the strait, and fired on two ships, which led Trump to threaten war crimes again. fire on an Iranian ship that tried to run the US naval blockade, and seize the ship, which in turn led the Iranians to threaten retaliation. And yet it seems as of this recording late Monday afternoon, uh a second round of negotiations in Pakistan may still happen.

Um the latest is that J.D. Vance and the US delegation uh seem to be planning to go. And uh while the Iranians haven't publicly confirmed their attendance, uh two Iranian officials told the Times that they'll likely attend if J.D. Vance goes. Still some confusion. First time in history anyone says I'm not going to that event unless J.D. Vance is there. Maybe the last.

Yeah. Um, so it seems like Trump uh was either lying or heavily exaggerating on Friday about the progress they'd made on a deal, or Uh he pissed off the Iranians by spiking the ball before the deal was done, or maybe a little bit of both. I don't know. What Tommy what do you think? Happened. Um, I think he was just making shit up. He he was tweeting out his wish list of outcomes for talks that had not yet happened. And then he kind of elaborated their TPUSA with the uh the the golden dust.

The dust. Created by our B two bomber. The nuclear dust is his way of squaring the circle between we obliterated the program and we have to fight a war against them. It's all about the dust. RFK's gonna snort it up towards the seat. But yeah, but but even last week, like it was clear Iran was saying in their tweets that the Strait of Horror Moose was only partially open. Foreign minister uh Abbas Sarachi said

The State of Strait of Four Moose is declared completely open uh for the remaining period of the ceasefire on the coordinated route. That's very important, which is like their little part that goes close to their shoreline so they can control everybody. That was what was open. And Trump was saying, Oh, it'll never be closed again. Uh the Israel will never bomb Lebanon again. It was all they're gonna turn over their stockpile, which is the dust.

Um it was all just made up. And then the the other problem is within Iran itself, there's all these reports of like an ongoing power struggle between uh elected officials, the IRGC, the nationalists versus the Islamists.

It's not really clear who's in charge over there. It's like nineteen seventy nine, the kind of first few months. Um and the way you know that was manifesting was Uh the economists had a great piece today where they talked about how the Islamabad talks, the Iranian delegation had eighty people in it, including thirty who are described as decision makers. That's rolling deep. That's like a state that you need to do. Yeah, too many cooks.

Too many cooks, not enough dust Who knows what's gonna happen to keep them all going, but it's a mess. Yeah, uh the apparently the Trump administration officials told Axios today that there is this this genuine they they kind of blamed it on the the this genuine split between the negotiating team and the IRGC. They also though admitted to Axios they said that

The Iranians never ever at no point agreed to give up enrichment permanently. Uh they certainly never agreed to do anything for free. They also said Trump is willing to lift sanctions, give somebody even though he's not saying that publicly. And release a bunch of frozen assets. Right.

Yeah, I was there was also a story about um the six cruise ships that had to like sneak through the Strait of Hormuz during this opening, which I just there's something so funny about this. It's like like no honey, we're not No port to call. I know, it's such a bummer. It's such a bummer that they're empty. We just be like, We're going through the shore moves. All right. That's something you just don't tell the passengers.

Just look out the window, wave on your left. That's not a rocket launcher. Those are just fireworks. Look at the bit the the beautiful gulf. Uh yeah, I I'm like I think increasingly we just need to look at whatever Trump is posting about this as A completely separate like is he lying, is he telling the It's a bit. It's not a It's a performance piece. It's just

Bullshit. It's just, it's not even tethered to what he's hearing or not. Maybe it's in some way a version of what he hopes the outcome will be. But based on this and and and more of the reporting that we'll talk about in a minute, just he treats the the social media as is basically just about what he wants.

to vent about how he's feeling and what he wants the public to believe is going on. It bears absolutely no resemblance to what he's hearing internally, to what they're conveying to the Iranians, to what the internal discussions look like. It is just a separate track.

It's like it's just like he's journaling. Yeah. It's just He's just doing therapy. Some and sometimes sometimes sometimes it's what he it's sometimes it's therapy, sometimes it's like a vision board. Did you guys read all the the truths today? There's a lot today. Some of the the the couple of things that stood out to me there, uh, you know, he says I'm winning I'm winning a war by a lot and then goes on to like mock Iran for losing again.

Uh he attacked uh Obama and the JCPOA. He said Obama gave$1.7 billion in all capo letters. Green cash. He emptied out all the cash from banks in DC, Virginia, and Maryland. Those bankers said they've never seen anything like it before. Like Tony Blinken was going bank to bank with like the sort of thing. All the banks. Like in the movie Assassins where you have to wait for a couple of hours where they count all the money.

He did he did one that started, he said, despite World War One lasting and then he goes on and talks about the exact length and years and days of World War Two, World War One. Korean War, Vietnam, Iraq, and then he said, I promised six weeks, and by the way, I am under no pressure whatsoever to make a deal, although it will all happen relatively quickly. Time is not my adversary. Oh I would say that I would say Yeah, exactly. Time of the last time.

What's it? Called Democrats traitors, uh bragged about building the greatest military our country's ever seen, including adding the space force. That's something that we had to get in today. Uh and then also Israel never talked me into the war with Iraq. Sure, buddy. Yeah. My Israel never talked me into the war with a round t shirt. It's answering a lot of questions.

I just like As is giving a speech a meant to be a kind of political booster speech, and you say, Great news everybody, the Strait of Hormuz is open, like that wasn't a problem two months ago. It's also like he he what he the lesson he took from the Iraq war was that um the one most successful episode in the whole war was the mission accomplished banner'cause he basically has been doing that every single day since the war began. Yeah.

Every day it's we won the war. Every single day. It's we won the war or we're gonna destroy civilization. That's it. I'm not pressured to end it soon, but I'm gonna end it soon. But I don't care when I end it,'cause we've already won. Then we're gonna go well, we're gonna accomplish all this stuff. Do you see that um Jared Kushner and Steve Whitkoff are being referred to as Whit Kush? It's so Diplomatic circles. Whit could be Yeah. Cushwit. Cushwit sounds better. JERKOFFJERKOFFJERKOFFJERKOFFJER

Jar off, yeah. That works for me. Anyway, um there was also an incredible Wall Street Journal story over the weekend about how Trump has been, quote, grappling with his own fears about this war. Um, namely that if too many American troops were killed or captured. his presidency uh could end up like Jimmy Carter. So that seems to be the main takeaway for him. Um I also found this part notable.

Uh when a White House advisor asked Trump about his uh remember the Easter Sunday post uh that threatened war crimes and ended with quote, Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell, praise be to Allah. Um of course I'm happy Easter. Um so Trump said about this post quote, he came up with the with the a la idea himself.

He said he wanted to seem as unstable and insulting as possible, believing it could bring the Iranians to the table, senior administration officials said. Uh nailed the first part, I guess. I guess which what did you guys make of the piece? Quibble with the analysis a bit. I don't think you needed the praise be to Allah tweet for the Iranians that think you're unstable and insulting to them. That was pretty well established. I think with the crazy bastards part. Yeah. And all the bombing.

You guys think that- Telling people that you're just pretending to be a lunatic to get a deal kind of ruins the point of pretending to be a lunatic. Well, yeah. Yeah, you read the piece like, Oh, he really was just was just yeah, right.

Well, all right, w you are what you pretend to be. But he be he's just sort of jerking everybody around. And I look back to like the concern, which I th was completely legitimate given what he was threatening that day. And then you read the piece and he was also meeting about the ballroom and doing fundraisers and kind of doing normal business.

that day and there was a little bit of like the alarm that wasn't going off and the dog that wasn't barking. Like there was no we weren't getting reportings that he was in the situation room laying out the final parts of the plan. And so it confirms what we were just talking about, which is

But what he is posting publicly is not coming out of a conversation with the negotiators. It's not some part of some like public facing strategy and private facing strategy. It's just his separate stream of consciousness.

whatever contractor's mentality about negotiations. He he clearly it like as the as I think the Iranians have assumed, as a lot of people have assumed, does not want the the the economic pain that comes with a long term conflict. So he has to counteract that with by seeming unstable

issuing these big threats and seeming blustery, but behind the scenes that's all just a show, which is what the Iranians knew because they called his bluff that day and, you know, didn't relent to what he was saying in the lead up to this civilization destroying threat. Yeah, the story I think. really drives home that the whole war is just an exercise in ego and narcissism and stupidity. Right. There was there was the Venezuela operation.

That was easy in Trump's mind. He was told by all these sycophants like Lindsey Graham and Pete Hexeth that Iran would be easy too, uh, and that he could be a historic figure and reshape the geopolitical order and be better than Obama. And so here we are. And so You know, there's also the more detail about how in the opening days they were presenting him hype videos of explosions, and he was like

This is cool. Why isn't the press just reporting this? Look at all the things blowing up. And then it it's also sounds like Hegzeth told him that Iran wouldn't close the Straight O Hermuz or the people around him, or at least Trump was telling them that. So I assume someone told him that they wouldn't respond in the most obvious way possible.

Um, and so Trump was shocked when it happened and when global oil prices spiked. And that ultimately though, like what is upsetting him about what's happening with Iran is not the death and the destruction or the high gas prices. It is being compared to Jimmy Carter or Joe Biden. That is what is terrifying him and what he cannot stomach. And so yeah, he's changing the subject. He's talking to his architect about the ballroom or like anything he can to get

Multiple meetings a week on the ballroom. A tie w he refers to he be that he sees himself as quote the general contractor of the ballroom. Well, I think in his mind he would see um uh a successful outcome in Iran um as a as a as a legacy item. Uh he puts that on the same plane as the Volroom as a legacy item. Like it's all just one level

for him, you know. And I look, if the reason he is worried about US casualties and chaos in the Middle East is for uh reasons of self preservation and legacy, like that's a fine motivation. Um but Uh because at least the outcome could be the same. But his other problem is He can never risk seeming like he is not completely dominating and winning at every given moment. Like I don't know if the negotiations would be further along right now if he just simply shut his fucking mouth.

and stopped posting about stuff. But I certainly think he's made it worse. Like if you instead of saying that you won all the time and just pissing off the Iranians and saying, oh, they did this and they're destroyed. Imagine if every time um someone asked about the negotiations, Trump and the White House were just like, When we have something to report, when we have good news to report, we'll let you know. Otherwise we're just engaged in negotiations.

He's not the big underpromise over deliver guy. Well this way like it also like what is the end game of this? Any actual deal, not one he's describing, but a real deal will involve You know, puts and takes. It'll have compromises on our side, compromises that will in some way

like resemble the parts of the deal he's been uh mocking for years that the Obama administration did with Iran. There's only so many levers that this kind of an agreement will have. And so the hope to me is you come to some sort of

conclusion to this that results in a deal that he pretends is some kind of dominating victory. And it is understood by everyone that Donald Trump is going to call this the greatest deal in human history, even if it resembles in many ways uh uh the the Obama deal. Uh that's the hope, right? And he wants to give himself the Medal of Honor. So that was in there too.

Yeah. That keeps coming up. But it was a joke. Talk about that. Did you who was the story? Was it the Times the other day about how the the arch he's building for himself went from like seventy feet to 150 feet? Now it's two hundred fifty feet. It's like They're gonna reroute the planes. They're gonna have to rot the planes that are gonna have to go on. Even like the architect that was for it was like, No, this is crazy, you can't do this.

dwarf like you know, a bunch of veterans' memorials and monuments. Um before we move on, I just uh wanna call your attention to uh a political piece from Friday that has already become, to me, just an incredible artifact from a simpler time. Uh the headline is

Big sigh of relief. Republicans finally get some good news. Can it last? And I was like I saw I'm like, what is this about? And the lead is Republicans are breathing a little easier this weekend, cautiously optimistic that Trump has finally found an off ramp to end the war. With oil dropping below ninety dollars a barrel, the stock market making new all time highs, and gas down eight cents a gallon this week.

some feel the slightest bit of a wind at their back for the first time since February. And then it's got Representative Carlos Scarbelo saying, Big sigh of relief from Congressional Republicans today. Ha ha. It just It's so funny to like pr to like do that story and for Republicans to like go on the record for that story when there's been like an hour after Trump said, everything's open, everything's great.

It just goes to show that it's like it's not just Trump like this is how this is like how Washington DC media operates the whole thing. And there's some, you know, like, oh, this is they're trying to say they're trying to they're wish casting to Trump, see, like this is this is good. When we de-escalate, this will be something that you'll get positive press about from your congressional.

window into like the second no matter what the deal is, no matter how bad the deal is, no matter how different it is from the JCPOA, no matter what it is, it's gonna be like like the second there is any kind of a deal and the war's over, it's gonna be like Alright, now Republicans are feeling bullish again on the midterm. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Vast majority of Americans still hate the war, think Trump's doing a shitty job. Uh a brand new NBC news poll uh looks just like all the others. Trump is at uh 37% approval, 63% disapproval, including 50% who say they strongly disapprove. record lows all around, uh, and his numbers are even worse on Iran and the cost of living. Um, probably not helped by his energy secretary telling CNN over the weekend that quote, it could be next year before gas is under three dollars a gallon again.

Uh Republicans are starting to panic. They may lose the Senate as well as the House. Uh and you can tell the White House is nervous because they're making public overtures to win back uh one time ally Joe Rogan, who's been saying things like this about the war. Most people that voted for Trump or wanted Trump to be in office, one of the things that was attractive was this no no more wars. Sure. Of course.

Now we're in one of the craziest ones. What the fuck are we doing? Like how is this still going on? Well, over the weekend, uh Trump made a surprise announcement that he's fast tracking FDA review of psychedelics as a medical treatment, uh, an issue Rogan is passionate about. And you can tell Trump is too from his mastery of the terms involved. It's called I bogane. Treatment. I bogged. Remember the name. Is that pronounced relatively properly what you say?

I don't want to get it wrong. I bogey because it's so important and experienced an eighty to ninety percent reduction in symptoms of depression and anxiety within Yeah. One month. Can I have some please? I'll take whatever it takes. Okay. I don't have time to be depressed. You know, if you stay busy enough, maybe that works too. That's what I do. I sound like... That's how the pressure works. I sent President Trump some information.

All right, Chef. Uh we have a gigantic opiate problem in this country. The text message b came back sounds great. Do you want FDA approval? Let's do it. For fifty-six years, we've lived under those. Thank you. Terrible conditions. We're free of that now. We're free of that now. Thanks to all these people that we see next to me, and thanks to President Trump. We all respect Joe and Thank you. It's a little bit more liberal than Amen. That's okay. I have a lot of friends that are liberal.

Interesting window into how the sausage gets made, huh? You just text the president something and suddenly uh the FDA, independent regulatory agency, just uh fast tracks it, no problem. Yeah, this is a good outcome on this specifics here, but Joe Rogan texting Trump some medical information and Trump being like, Cool, let's do it. That that's not a good process.

'Cause you're'cause you're pissing me on the war and so I'm trying to get you back. So whatever you want, I don't know what this drug is, it sounds great, I'll take some, but you know, I just stave off depression by just I just keep moving I just keep posting. Never be alone with if you don't want to feel sad, never be alone with your thoughts. Just keep moving. Just keep it. Your family. That's a Trump thing. Sure. Just get out there, just just just turn the TV on, turn it louder.

Just throw it. Yeah, like I do think like what Ro like. I think it's worth saying that this is something people like about Trump, the idea that It doesn't have the red tape and the sludge of like normal government that there's stuff that should be happening that isn't because government is slow and stupid. And there should be a present that just says, Oh, this is a good idea, there's good studies, let's do it. And there's there's two big problems.

A little bit. Well, there's somewhere between uh being able to build a train in California and Joe Rogan uh being uh bizarre bizarre for magic mushrooms. Uh and but but it it the the problem with it with Trump is A, it becomes about it's not about like, oh, doing good things faster based on any kind of a process. It's just who knows them and who has access. So yeah, Rogan can get this done and maybe that's a good thing, but also means the CEO of United

can give Trump a million dollars for the inaugural and then soft pitch creating the biggest airline by two in the world and potentially get it done because Trump knows him and it seems like it's a big fun deal to do. And when the and when the resulting merger sucks for people, Trump's like, Well, I don't have to deal with that. I have the I have my freak Atari Yeah, they're pretty wish they hadn't made that gift.

Right. Oh you're you're mad about the things I did before I left? Get in line. I'm trying to stay ahead of depression. But the other and the other part of it though, and I I think it's like actually just as important is

He actually doesn't do other than other than like the the like he can break things very quickly. He can do that with Doge. He can shut down agencies. But when he finishes these events where he gets moving fast and doing things be that other people couldn't do, nothing fucking happens.

Joe Biden was really fucking slow on getting marijuana off of Schedule One. He put out a an order to review it in 2022. Trump says, I'm gonna fast track it, right? That gave him a real opportunity that he shouldn't have had. But it hasn't happened. It didn't it's not uh marijuana remains a schedule one drug as we're sitting here and talking. It has been held up.

Ever since he wrote signed that order uh uh over a year ago, Pam Bondi couldn't get it done. There's an opening for the administrative law judge that be that could be the one to approve it. And by the way, even if it does happen, there's a bunch of Republicans

who are lined up to sue to prevent it from going into effect. So he gets the press event about how quickly he can do things, but meanwhile, he actually stops paying attention, doesn't really focus on it, doesn't really give a fuck, gets the good headline and never really happens. I do love the events where you can tell he's learning the details in real time. And he's like kind of does a meta commentary on himself as he's reading the facts about Oh, that sounds good depression. I don't need that.

But uh on the Ibogaine there was a great piece in the New York Times about Ibegaine treatment by Robert Draper. uh that's worth reading. He did an episode of the daily that's you could listen to it too. It's helped a lot of people. It's helped a lot of people struggling from PTSD, depression, truly debilitating mental health challenges, especially veterans. Uh and the cause was picked up by Rick Perry.

Kirsten cinema, some interesting people. Sean Ryan, who's uh got a huge uh show on uh YouTube with a bunch of veterans, he's a veteran himself and former Navy SEAL, has talked about using Ibogaine to shake his addiction to drinking drugs, a lot of stuff. So Rogan had a bunch of conversations about this, uh, with people impacted, including Sean Ryan, including Rick Perry, including a couple of people at that event there. Um, and it just it did not

I I think there's actually a really good outcome'cause it didn't make sense that you like you couldn't do medical trials on people with PTSD, but you could like go to Mexico and get treatment. Like why that's stupid. So I'm glad Trump cut through the red tape here. Like I'm sure Joe Rogan will kinda like.

give Trump his flowers on this issue rightfully. So I doubt it changes his concern about Iran or the fact that he's talking about Yeah, I think it's important for people to like it doesn't it doesn't short circuit the actual reclassification process or the approval process for the for the treatments themselves, but for this for the studying and it's not just um for the medical studies and it's Ibogaine, but it's also MDMA and psychedelic mushrooms.

I was I was at a fish concert recently. I think a lot of people were in that study. Yeah. Lot of studies. It's a good place to study. Um yeah, on the Rogan like I think what if Rogan's smart.

he will realize that this was uh he got Trump to do something he wanted him to do and he will go back to continue he will can criticize him when he wants to criticize him and not criticize him when he thinks he's doing something good. Like it it could just be like that. And I I don't think it'll change anything big. I think it's Smart politics probably on on both parts. Uh on for on on Trump's behalf and on Rogan's behalf. Like

Good for Rogan for just saying fuck it. I'm I'm the these they're that they think they need me because they they see that I'm critical of them. Like, let's get something good to happen. Like great, good for him. That's an amazing thing to do.

But if you're a Rogan listener and have heard Joe Rogan talk about Donald Trump in Iran and the Epstein files and all the other things now that tw that Rogan has criticized Trump for, I don't think this changes you're not an idiot, this doesn't change anything for

It it this is a thing I don't get. Like the Rupert Burdock approach to Trump is always a smart one. You got like Fox News doing the propaganda, but then the Wall Street Journal is kicking the shit out of him. Like reserve some optionality, man. Like show him you can throw a punch.

Yeah, that is very true. Um, all right. Speaking of infamous podcasters, uh, we should talk about the FBI director, uh, who is suing the Atlantic. over an absolutely brutal and somewhat terrifying story about his management style and personal behavior that's sourced to more than two dozen people, including, quote, current and former FBI officials and staff at law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

He is called, quote, erratic, suspicious of others, prone to jumping to conclusions before he has necessary evidence, al always a great quality in an FBI director. That's what you want. Uh you always want the top cop. Uh just jumping to conclusions before you have evidence. Uh he's also accused of quote conspicuous inebriation and unexplained absences, and described as a national security vulnerability. He's reportedly been so drunk so often.

That his meetings have had to be rescheduled for later in the day, and his security detail has had difficulty waking him up. This is from the piece quote A request for breaching equipment, normally used by SWAT and hostage rescue teams to quickly gain entry into buildings, was made last year because Patel had been unreachable behind locked doors. Uh anyway, Cash is handling this well. Here he is announcing his lawsuit on Maria Bardaromo's show.

You want to attack my character? Come at me. Bring it on. I'll see you in court. So you're gonna sue them? Absolutely. It's coming tomorrow. Tomorrow you will be dropping a lawsuit against the Atlantic magazine. Yes, yes I will. For defamation and because you know what Maria? We have to fight back against the fake news. He looks drunk. Yeah, I'll be filing it tomorrow, but don't expect it before noon. I'm gonna roll into court. File this bad boy.

I heard the problem is he's actually down a podcaster after Bon Gino resigned. Oh yeah. That's why he's kinda struck. Yeah, it needs more podcasts. Yeah, send more podcasts. Blockhead Dan. Minecraft head dan. What did you guys think of the Atlantic speech? Fire. I mean look, just worth saying, Cash Patel shouldn't have this job to begin with.

Remotely qualified to be FBI director in the first place. He was a low-level DOJ lawyer, then a Capitol Hill staffer, then he got like sucked into the Trump orbit, and now he's the FBI director. It's There there's been a lot of reporting about how he treated the job like a joke, like it was fantasy camp. There was uh he was focused on the image and the perks, like he used the the private jet to fly to the Olympics.

He's flying around to see his girlfriend. Remember, he went to a place called the Boondoggle Ranch for a weekend off of hunting with a big G O P donor. Um, and then also there's a report that he just him and Dan Bon Gita would just freak out about like what Twitter thought of them and plan their tweets, not like investigations and things. Um

Yeah, but this story it does make him sound like a genuine danger to the country. Like he is paranoid, prone to emotional outbursts, impulsive. He's so bad at managing the building that good people are leaving. And like he is drunk. And let's just be clear, he is drunk on the job because FBI director is a 24-7 job. You don't get a a a night out.

From the terrorists or the bad guys. And so the question is why is he still there? And the answer is because he will go after Trump's enemies, and Trump knows this. And now that he's even more damaged, he's probably gonna step that up and go that extra mile to prosecute John Brennan or, you know, whoever. Um, and that's it's scary.

Trump likes his his cabinet secretaries weak and dependent upon him, but this I do think crosses a line into probably too weak and too dependent in the same way you saw Pam Bondi and Christine kind of sweatily trying to regain their good graces. It kind of crosses a line that you can't come back from. I also say honestly. No one's sweating harder than him. No, this guy's yeah, well it's interesting.

And it has a smell, yeah. The I had a different reaction, which is I I I saw this a little bit the way I I saw ice at the airports. Like the more ice at the airports, the fewer of them that are in American cities. And and look, I think it is terrible to have someone like Cash Patel in charge of the FBI. But there's no meeting he is in.

that he makes better, sober or otherwise. And so the the idea that he's uh according to the report uh in Vegas in the poodle room uh uh atop the Fountain Blue Hotel. I went and looked up how you get into this private club, the poodle room. Yeah. And it is so exclusive. For American Express card holders. Uh it is available only to private members, people on a certain level of the hotel in a certain kind of suite and exclusive to certain holders of American Express.

Credit cards, charge cards. So so that's interesting. the most alarming is not how he is absent and drinking all the time. It is the way through firings and attrition, the FBI has lost a lot of key people. There was this story. There's also a story last week by Pro Publica. about 75 people that were part of different public integrity units, uh cyber units, uh election units that have all been forced out and left, replaced by Trump diehards and people that were part of the election interference.

operation and now you have uh career people and people in the states on phone calls with DHS and the people representing the federal government are the kooks who they used to be suing from the outside. You go from as a secretary of state or or a lead uh a a law enforcement official in a state trying to fight some of these people, next thing you know, they're the people representing DHS on the calls. And so senior serious people are leaving and kind of kooks and cranks and

uh Trump uh anti-uh election zealots are coming in. That to me is the biggest and most dangerous part. Who's gonna want to fucking report to this guy uh who apparently had a panic attack because his email wasn't working and he thought he'd been fired. That's what they report Yeah. Amazing. Can't get it can't get into his em can't get into his some some part of the system. It's but probably his password was didn't couldn't remember his password or something.

And then he was like he called everyone I've been fired, I've been fired, I've been fired And then like news goes around the FBI headquarters, all these people are like, Oh, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone and they were like, No, no, it's just technical difficulties, he's fine.

The uh and and then and then the the the the like the lawsuit clearly put together by some whoever kind of lawyers that are gonna still be that are gonna be working for Cash Patel at this point, uh said they they they referred to this in their

their lawsuit as a made up rumor basically confirming that the rum that he was locked out of his computer and the rumor did at some point exist. And then the in the lawsuit They say Director Battel does not drink to excess at these establishments, the Ned something and the Poodle Room.

Doesn't drink to excess there or anywhere else. And this has not and has never been a source of concern across the government. They are claiming in their lawsuit against the Atlantic that no one in the government Is concerned about Cash Patel's drinking, quite a claim to make from a Sunday to a Monday. Well, yeah. proving the lawsuit or the allegation itself, in order for them to win this lawsuit.

because this is they're doing defamation based on what over a over two dozen sources told the reporter. So basically the way that you win a lawsuit like this is basically the reporter has to say that that she didn't believe any of her sources at all. all the the over twenty four that she talked to, and yet she published it anyway. Well she had because she was had a she she hated Cash Patel and wanted him to suffer.

Yeah, and she got all this information and she's like, I don't care that all these people are telling me this information, it's all wrong. But I'm gonna publish it anyway. Video of him drinking to excess at the fucking Olympics. He chugged a whole beer. He chugged a whole beer. We have we have F we have proof of him.

uh uh flying off half-cocked because he posted crazy things that we all saw that went beyond the investigation. The proof is publicly available. Forget showing that it wasn't true or that the sources didn't say it. She she could just point to the actual public Public videos that he himself has been in.

This is also like the tenth story about him being a clown. There there was a there was an article in the Times earlier this year about him going to a five eyes conference in the UK as like our closest intel intelligent allies. And Cash Mattel's team said he wanted to go to a Premier League soccer games. He wanted to go jet skiing in in London. Uh, he wanted to go on a helicopter tour. And everybody was like, this is an absolute joke. This guy's a laughable.

Uh I do you know before Gnome and Bondi, I would have said like uh Trump's just gonna keep him like he keeps all of them, but he seems to be on a on a bit of a tear recently. And I feel What's her name too? Yeah. Yeah yeah, I I want to mention that. Lori Chavez de Remer. So th so right before we recorded the news broke that uh Labour Secretary Lori Chavez de Ramer has resigned. Uh she's the third cabinet member to do so in the last month and a half.

Uh, and she was under internal investigation from complaints about her conduct and how she treated her staffers, also an alleged affair with a security staffer, also using taxpayer funds for personal travel, and also like Cash Patel, drinking on the Texting your staffer to be like, Savi B question mark. Yeah. asking the staffers just to bring up a bottle of wine to the hotel room. I don't know, is that the worst? Yeah. Maybe it was the end of a long night. Yeah. Uh Part of a pattern perhaps.

Yeah, so she she she's gone. She's gone now too. That's another She resigned, although I'm sure she it sounds like she was pushed out and she's uh and then the White House and she's going to the she's going to the private sector. It's just like Pam Bandi. She's gonna be one of those, what is it, the the shield for the Central Americas or whatever Christine Nelman's fake job was?

Even give her a fake it doesn't it sounds like with Pam stops they st they decided to stop giving fake jobs after no, right? Like Pam Bondi's just getting private sector, she's getting private sector. It's been the kiss of death recently, if somebody at the White House says that the that uh the President has utmost confidence in in in in his cabinet secretaries because soon soon after they're gone. But Caroline Levitt put out a statement about Patel in this article that Doesn't even say that.

Director Patel remains a critical player on the administration's law and order team. It's basically the equivalent of like a valued member of our law enforcement operations, which sounds like he could be put fucking anywhere. He's gonna be the deputy to Gnome at the Shield of the Americas in like the next like forty eight hours, maybe before we're done recording. Wild. Wild. Pete Heggseth still has his job. Yeah, that really sucks.

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Would do nothing for you to jump through a hoop to fix it. In fact, yeah, although it's easier to do without a boner, I'd say. You know? Keep cat getting caught in the hoop. Just give you lucky.

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The 2028 Democratic presidential contenders uh probably won't start announcing their candies until shortly after the midterms this November, but a lot of the potential candidates are really ramping up their public appearances and attending events alongside their potential opponents. This last weekend was particularly busy. Kamala Harris, Andy Bashir, and Corey Booker were campaigning with other Democrats in Detroit.

AOC and Kamel Harris were in Chicago. Pete Buddig held an event in Tulsa, and John Ossoff held another Senate re-election rally in Georgia. Uh we thought it'd be useful to just uh react to a few clips from the weekend that caught our attention. So we can talk about how Democrats are thinking about shaping the party's message ahead of 2026 and of course 2028. Uh first up, John Osoff in Georgia. The faithless president. He depicts himself as Christ while he plunges the nation into wars of choice.

While he and his family raking billions from foreign princes. While he plunders our health care to cut taxes for the rich. Yeah. Meanwhile, rent, power, groceries and health care have hit all time highs this year. More for everything. The first family's wealth is growing by billions of dollars. Because they're crooked. Hm. I just love how we landed. I like that. Crooks.

I I think th because they're crooks is is the message, right? He brings it all back to corruption. I think it's smart to mention the the the story of the week, the Christ imagery, and then kind of wrap that into this broader message of the day about corruption that he has. Um my little nitpick was I want everyone to stop saying war of choice. What I I want that to I have the same point.

Yeah. I've done it too. It's just it the phrasing doesn't make sense. Like people don't really know what you're talking about. It's like this war is immoral, it's illegal, it's a strategic disaster, like I s any other way. It it's it's it's too too light for me. Yeah. War of choice. It's like it's like, oh I just made the bad choice. It's like, no, no, you you launched an illegal war that's killing a whole bunch of people and fucking up the Middle East and the war.

Yeah, I think the problem with it, I and I notice it too. He he says it, Kamala also says it in her game. They all say it. They all say it everyone says it. And it it it is a lingering thing from from from post Iraq and it's sort of like we did not it was we it's uh we preempted we did this preemptively. We chose to go to war, it was where we didn't have to fight, and it it feels like it's a legacy of a different kind of

uh uh way of talking about it. I I had the same thought when I heard it. It was like the w literally the one thing that to me rang very political in the whole speech. It's an excellent speech. The other thing I appreciated about it, I just w I s I just watched the whole thing. He does not, he just gets up there and he jumps in. It is it is made to be, it is first of all, it's tight. It is made for people with low attention spans.

It is he does not waste there's not a lot of filler. There's an argument. There's a lot of facts. He moves quickly through it. He is into the meat of the speech and to the message of the speech within about a minute or a minute and a half from when he takes the mic, maybe even a little bit faster.

Um and he has a great indictment to me, like a broader indictment that's a that's sort of a a bipartisan indictment of the current way politics is done. And I thought it was a great quote, which was There's a lazy cynical expedient.

politics unmoored from fixed moral principles and incapable of inspiration or great national achievement, all this gave rise to a depraved president who exploits this rot to empower and enrich himself. And I like that to me was as clean a way of critiquing the w not Republicans and Democrats and a style of politics that's feel that's like depleting and enervating that it's

There's a way that he um it wasn't in this clip, I should have put it in, but um there's a way that he brings the crowd in just very so that he's not just speaking at them because I think the risk of a the risk of just giving big rallies.

Is that you're just talking at people. And when he gives his speeches and he tell talks about like something like what Tommy was saying, like, oh, the story of the week, he'll always be like, Did you see that? Did you see how that happened? I'm interested if after the Senate race,

um and he feels a little looser because he just won reelection, if he's like a little more um, you know, informal in the way he's because I I do think like he's he's really nailed, I think, the rally speech better than almost any of the other potential candidates, right?

And what I'd love to see from is like, how does he do in an interview? How does he do when he like sits down and just talks about stuff? Because like message wise in a rally speech it's great. Um and you don't see you don't see really good rally. The tone when he was in here was pretty similar. It was pretty serious, sober, kind of.

I know. And I I can't tell if that's like I'm running for reelection in Georgia and like I gotta just focus on that and I'm not I'm not here to opine on, you know, national presidential politics. But I don't know, we'll see.

Pete's event was just a different style. Yeah, so here's Pete. Uh he's answering a question from an Oklahoma voter about how to talk to people who disagree with him. We all live in Oklahoma, or a lot of us do, lots of people that are on the other side. What's your advice to engage them when we seem to be in such echo chambers and are so divided? Step one, I think try to do it off.

as much as possible. And if you go into that encounter with an open heart, you do it knowing that you might have some of your own values and views challenged, and that's okay. That's why I developed this very unexpected specialty of going to places like Fox News.

uh and other conservative outlets. How can I blame somebody for not embracing my point of view if they've literally never even heard it? I always imagine that I'm talking to people like people I grew up with, who I disagree with, and also actually like

Which I think is really important too, because we've been made to feel like we're j we just ought to be like snarling at each other. And I think there are so many people who maybe have a different worldview than we do, but just like us, they're tired of the sense that politics is just Punching you in the face every time you look at your phone or turn on the T V. Headline Pete open to speaking with Hassan Pike. Was he on the list? Did he get that question? I don't know. Everyone did, I think.

I mean I I think it it's it's he's good. Like I I think by the time we get to twenty twenty eight, my hope is that people will want the opposite of Trump and that they'll be look betting on like a more unifying tone and message. I think Pete is betting on that.

Um and he's trying to argue that I'm the guy who can best reach across the aisle and convince people. I think the the reality of what he's good at is a little more nuanced. Like he is really smart and can debate anyone and can beat anyone in debate, which is why

Libs like us are like, Yeah, you gave it to Joe Kernan on C N B C fuck that guy, or like he goes on Fox News and he's great, or the all in podcast, he was really good with them. You can fight back with any everyone. That is a little bit of a different skill than being able to reach every community and like

you know, like connect with people. I'm not saying he can't do that. It's just it's a different thing than they're kind of trying to sell by going to Tulsa for a town hall, if that makes sense. It makes it like intellectual. he knows and can articulate why it's so important to connect with people who are different and why and how he in and what he just said there and like it helped to persuade you and stuff like that.

But there's like another step when you're running to be the president, which is you actually have to do that connecting yourself. Um and I th I do think that's different. And a lot of it is like he does he does deliver maybe the smartest analysis of politics.

um and message than and m than most Democrats I've seen. And then but then is that enough or do you need to actually show and just tell? And I look I think this is like I I thought that the the uh clip you referenced with uh Joe Kernan, like that's the one that got me even more excited, even though this is more my style of message, but like what him going back and forth with Kernan, and he wasn't a dick. No, like right. He beat him in that debate, but he wasn't like attacking.

And that is red meat for my silo. Loved it. Yeah, right. Pete opened this up with with like like a nine or ten minute speech, just on mic, which was great and he's he always that shot that too. Both everyone's doing from below. The same thing for for us up. It's like from the below kind of leader shot. Yeah. Osof also was like, is he getting bigger with They're tailor tailoring the shit out of those shit. Unbelievable. Yeah, we gotta listen, he's not missing chest.

Yeah, no he's not like Everyone's four U feet is different. Yeah, that's right. That's that's what's coming to my silo. But no I I so it's With Pete and and Osof. It's interesting to see them like what that would be like competing against each other. Both they're both like I I was thinking about the sort of what are the lessons from what happened to Orbon and the people writing about what are the sort of the message lessons from it? And there's a

Kind of pro pro-democracy, anti-corruption. Here's how corruption at the top has hurt you. Message that was galvanizing and unifying. And both of them are doing a version. I think right now because Asif is in the middle of a reelection, he's trying to show not tell. He's trying to make

the biggest argument he can to get to the most people and that'll be a proof point later. Pete can be more intellectual'cause he's not running for anything. So he can say, ah he says this a lot, uh uh when he's up there, which is, hey, you're not alone. A lot of people feel the way you do, no matter what you're seeing on television. You're trying to make that same argument around a lot of the same

Issues. I I was thinking about Pete because some pe people ask me all the time. I'm sure they ask you, like, what do you think about Pete? Pete's so good on Fox. And I don't really have the answer to it, but to me, it's the difference between Pete's selling. Voting for Democrats, democracy, whatever.

He's a he's an incredible salesman for it. He goes to these hostile places and he sells the fuck out of it. And the question is, why is it with Pete sometimes? You maybe agree with what he's saying, but you don't come away thinking that's my salesman.

You know, he's like, what a pitch. I agree, right? But it doesn't in in politics, you can't just make an argument for the car. You're making an argument for you as the person selling the car. And there is a gap there with him that I think this is the kind of event he's trying to kind of feel out. I don't think he's trying to just prove it. I think he's literally out there kind of getting ready.

I think where he gets where he gets shit from the left in particular is people question whether the bio and the lived experience kind of matches up with the reality. Like when I had Peggy Peggy Flanagan in here the other day, Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota. uh running for the Democratic nomination in Minnesota for the Senate seat.

She was talking about um growing up and living on Medicaid and living on Snap and how that informs all her choices and the people she fights for. And when someone talks to you like that from that lived experience, it's impossible not to be moved by it and to connect.

and to believe it. And I think like the criticism Pete sometimes gets is like, well, you know, you were in the military and you worked at McKinsey and you did all the things that kind of like check the box on the way to being an elected official, but does that mean you were like really connected with the people you represent? I'm not like I'm not questioning him or trying to be a dick about it, but I think that is the hit.

And I and I agree, but I also think that is a Newsom will deal with that as well Yes, but but for both of them that is an intellectual logical framework for trying to understand a feeling, right? Because Trump is worse than all of them, right? But there are people that think that he can connect. And and there's a way in which he has an ability to overcome that. And so I think when people go to that

What what's people look for facts and figures to try or sort of story to explain it, but then there is something that like what is it that prevents Pete from connecting to big parts of the Democratic base, which we talked about a million times, like what is that gap? I don't think it's just resume. I think it's something else that he's trying to figure out.

Uh finally two clips from Kamala Harris. Uh one from the Detroit event where she was talking about the war and one uh one of the plays she posted that was actually from her trip to North Carolina last.

He entered a war, got pulled into it by Bibi Netanyahu, let's be clear about that, entered a war that the American people do not want. Putting at risk American service members. Since the start of Trump's war of choice, it's fifteen. more dollars every time you fill up your tank of gas. The price of diesel has now gone up 80% since the start of the war. And you best believe that's going to carry over to how much you're paying for all the goods that are being transported. Let her do that.

I would love to just know how that gas station video came together. But it's like it's like they got out of the car on the way to the airport and were like So I was like, is that the same day? Uh I don't think it was the same day'cause I I remember uh wondering what the hell that was a couple days. No, I agree.

She just yeah, I don't know. But anyway, I wanted to put both in because I do think that she is at her best when she is doing the prosecution of the administration that she was in in the first half of the clip. Um the guess and look, she's not the only one who's done this, but it is such a Talk about like signaling that you are a throwback from a different era of production. Yeah.

But not even I mean, even Chuck Schumer would give a little, you know, like she she she's literally driving to North Carolina, she gets out of the car, there's a gas station, she's like, all right, vertical video, here I am, and I'm gonna be I'm just gonna be like, the cost of this war is blah, blah, blah. It's just so like, it's very senic. You could see you could see a a whole bunch of Democratic senators who w that who would maybe not run for president probably do that.

We all know gas prices are really high. Like when Chuck Schumer would do the s the gas station press conferences because gas he was prices were high. And it was the nineties.

And it was the nineties and two thousands. He was trying to signal to people it that that that he would want to be his voters, a party constituents, that he cares about the things he cares about. So he was trying to do a hit to get him on, you know, C B S two and ABC seven and have like a moment so people see that he cares about these issues.

uh a message bill that would address gouging or whatever it was and it was just a message hit to stay in front of his voters to show that he's fighting for them. Kamala's ostensibly not running for anything and if she is it won't be for some time. She's happens to be in North Carolina. We all know gas prices are high because they're on the fucking Signs when you go to the gas station. That's the beauty of the issue, honestly. So look w who doesn't know that? We all know.

Yeah, it just sort of seems random. You know what I mean? And I think that's sort of uh what I'm looking for from political leaders.

all of them right now is I want you to be leading on things in a full threaded way early. You know what I mean? Early on, let's take on the argument against the Iran war. Not once the prices are way up. Like it's it's okay to do it then, but I don't know, it just sort of felt like uh y you've been here, you've been in LA, you could have done these events or We have some big political issues here.

Yeah, we could f you know, kid it's just uh the the the choices of when to speak out and on what um just confuses me a little bit as a strategic matter, I think is what I'm reacting to. Yeah, I the challenge for her is So she was the last nominee. She is leading in the polls right now for if you look at polls of National Democrats. Um she's a especially leading with black voters. So she's gonna get a look.

Right. And she's gonna have if she decides to run, um, she's she's gonna be uh like a a real formidable candidate. But That's not gonna last long if she doesn't back that up with, Okay, here's why I'm running, here's what I have to say, here's what I have learned, um, and and here's my thoughts about not just where we are, but like where we have to go and and in a way that is

like personal to her and that no one else can copy. Yeah. You know, which I mean, they all have to do that, but I do think Even though she was only nominee for a hundred days, she's already been there, so like the the burden is even higher for her. The bar is even higher for her to like come up with something a a little new and different. I almost think that's like more important to the challenge that she has.

But I even th I I saw her I've seen her do the like she's tried to do the like, well, you know, we need some I've I've had experience. I've sat in these rooms, I've had these jobs, and I I do not think the experience argument is going to carry any Democrat very far in twenty twenty.

Yeah, well it's also that that was we already know that argument. Part of it was part of the argument she made when she was running the first time. I watched her the the full event that in which she spoke and and like I thought it you know, like it She's spoke out about the war and the way that that that you clipped. But then

When asked about like what do Democrats have to do differently, you end up with like I think something I agree with. We can't just be nostalgic for the past, we have to have a different vision. But she does what I think a lot of Democrats have have become accustomed to doing, which is say Democrats need to have a vision.

Democrats need a vision for what we're going to do about affordable healthcare. We need a vision for affordable housing. It's like I I know I completely agree. I do think that's exactly what we need. I know. It's a lot of translating pundits beat that we all do into rhetoric for an audience, right? All right. It's not enough to be against something, we have to be for something. We can't just go back to how things were. That wasn't good enough for people. We gotta figure out a new way for Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's like this is what people this is what people are saying in the focus group. So now I'm gonna say it. And and again, this is a problem a lot of them have. Yeah. Yeah. Um anyway, so we'll do that with a couple we'll do that with different candidates as they pop up.

You know, I know there was some other owns out there. I g I I only saw a little bit of Cory Booker's speech. I didn't see much of it. I didn't really see Andy Bashirs, but um you know, they'll be out there more. We'll Yeah time. We'll take we'll we'll yeah, we'll look at a lot of them. Uh when we come back, Tommy speaks to Alan Goldenberg of J Street about how pro Israel progressives are trying to make their case.

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My guest today is Senior Vice President and Chief Policy Officer at J Street. Elon Goldenberg. Welcome to Podsay of America. Thanks for having me. Great to see you. Um so over the last Probably longer. There has been an intense debate about the war in Gaza.

the US Israel relationship, uh especially US military support to Israel, and the line between anti Zionism, anti-Semitism. Um now thanks to President Trump, you can lump in the role Israel may or may not have played in the latest war with Iran and Lebanon to that debate. So most recently uh in the Democratic Party, this debate manifested as a fight over

Whether Democrats should go on a Twitch streamer show, a guy named Hassan Piker. Uh there's this think tank called the Third Way. They said that Hassan should essentially be banished from the party. This was in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. So John Favreau talked through a lot of this with Hassan for an episode that came out about a week ago. Folks should check that out if they want more. But uh you wanted to provide a different perspective on how you believe

One can still be a supporter of Israel and a liberal Zionist and a Democrat all at once. So we want to talk through that and maybe I can poke and prod your argument and see how we go. So Let's just start with where you disagreed with Hassan on his definition of Zionism and kind of we'll go from there.

Sure. So the problem with I think Hassan's argument on that, and thanks for having me, Tommy, uh was No, he talked about Israel and Zionism as essentially an ethno state with superior you know, essentially looking at uh what you'd call a supremacy ideology.

Uh and if you actually look at the founding documents of the state of Israel, for example, and you look at the history of Zionism, you know, Israel is intended to be a Jewish democratic state. It was also to be in its declaration of independence. uh described as a state with equal rights for all of its citizens. That's what the vision of the state was. Now, that's been incredibly imperfect.

And huge efforts still need to be made to move that in the right direction. That's one of the reasons J Street exists, right? I mean, we exist. because the view before us was, you know, you just gotta support Israel and everything. Israel is the perfect democracy in the Middle East, the only American democracy in the Middle East. and the only a mi democracy in the Middle East, really. Um and

You know, our argument was, no, there's all kinds of problems that need to be worked out and we need to be honest and critical with a friend of ours in Israel. Uh, but the answer isn't to tilt all the way in the other direction uh and to say, well, You know, Hamas and Israel are Hamas is a lot better than the Israeli government, and I'd much rather have Hamas than I would the Israeli government and treating it as uniquely evil because look, Bibi Netanyahu is a

Fascist, potentially an authoritarian. Donald Trump is also a fascist and authoritarian. Right. Do I call America a fascist state? An authoritarian state? No, I don't. I recognize that there's huge problems here and I operate from within that very kind of basic understanding. Um so this I think was kind of my problem with Hassan, right? Which was the argument was this state is uniquely evil. This state was founded purely based on ethnic cleansing. I mean we have

terrible ethnic cleansing and the founding of this the history of the United States and in so many different countries around the world. Uh and so Um, I think we just need to pull back and have a longer conversation about what is wrong and what is right and within the context of the state of Israel and how to move it to a better place.

So look I I I don't wanna I'm not gonna try to speak for Hassan or or anybody else, frankly, but let me just offer what I think kind of the put pushback to your argument would be, which is not that I think anyone was saying Israel was uniquely evil. It was just sort of whether or not there's a supremacy ideology in the sort of the founding documents, I think what you would say is Israel was founded after the mass displacement of, I think, seven hundred thousand Palestinians.

Since nineteen sixty seven, Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza, uh, and there's been, you know, groups of people living under permanent occupation. And the reality today is that it seems like Israel has chosen to be a a Jewish state and not a democratic state. And so I guess like I I can't I'm I it's fine to debate what like David Ben Gurion and others

had in mind in the nineteen forties. You know, I'm not an expert on this stuff. I would never pretend to be, but I think people would just say, look, the reality on the ground is that It's this much darker version of whatever that intention was of permanent occupation. And then some would argue apartheid or at least very clear instances where there are different rules for Jews and Palestinians that we can unpack that as well. What would you say to that?

Sure. Well, I'd say I don't disagree with that, right? And but the answer is not Hamas, right? I mean, this pull back a little bit. You know, I also work You know, on the presidential campaign in 2024, I spent a lot of time talking to American Jews. I spent a lot of time talking to voters. Uh and I think most voters are not in these two extreme positions, right? I mean, I think at the end of the day, um

You know, you have those who are from the beginning inside the Democratic Party have said, here's the APAC position. We're going to support Israel no matter what. And then there's where Hassan is, which is to argue that Israel is this kind of uniquely evil or deeply, deeply problematic. Uh state where the reality is, I think you find most, at least American voters, I would argue, and you can look at polling that shows this.

that can say, hey, you know, uh what I really want is for all Jews in Israel and all Palestinians to have freedom, security, equality, a state of their own. That's what we're arguing for at J Street. I can be horrified by the acts of October 7th by Hamas and I can be horrified by the horrific actions that the Israeli government has perpetrated in Gaza against Palestinian civilians. You know, I can um

Really hate Bibi Netanyahu, and I can have some sympathy for the Israeli people at the same time. I can recognize uh that anti-semitism is a real problem. And I can also recognize that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism and that even very sharp criticism of Israel in anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. So this is where, you know, a guy like Hassan Piker, I don't necessarily think he's anti-Semitic, I just disagree with his

views. And I think this is the kind of nuanced, hard conversation that I think we need to have in the Democratic Party and in the co in a sort of Democratic coalition. Because I also think that's where most Democratic voters are. That's where I would say most normy voters, Democratic voters are. Um, certainly American Jews that I talked to, and that's what J Street was was founded to represent, was that this is where most American Jews are, they're not where APAC is.

Uh but it's also I think just not where even if we have some folks on the base who are going further left, I I don't I think that there's just a huge constituency for this very common sense view that I'm Yeah, look I l my view on on Hamas is that uh

what they did on October seventh is uh evil and unjustifiable and fuck them and that they're bad for the Palestinian people and for the Jewish people and and that's fine. I think what Hassan was making kind of an inflammatory point of when you look at the death toll in terms of the number of people that Hamas killed on October seventh

versus the IDF, but I think you get in trouble when you're when you're doing comparisons. I'm also uh been someone who's was not a fan of BB Netanyahu since um two thousand nine when I first was in the same room with the guy. I think you're getting at this middle ground position. I wanna push you on that a bit because I think

Every um elected official in the United States basically pays lip service to the idea of a two state solution. And I think for decades the US government made a very sincere effort to facilitate talk.

that would lead to the creation of a Palestinian state. But for basically his entire career, Netanyahu has worked to block the creation of a Palestinian state. And these days he brags about it. You know, he says like throw my adept statesmanship, we prevented this from happening. He calls it a terror state. Um and in reality, I think the peace process has been dead for a long time. And then since October 7th.

both Israelis and Palestinians have lost faith that it will ever happen. I think like one fifth of Israelis and Poles uh think there's any hope for a Palestinian state. And that number is kind of procked up by uh Arab Israelis. So, you know, meanwhile the situation on the ground, it's the West Bank gets further annexed every week, Gaza now even further occupied by Israel Israel. So I think the critics would say This liberal Zionist vision of

Uh a support for Israel and a two-state solution is kind of delusional in a way of just avoiding the obvious reality that Israel long ago chose to be a Jewish state and not a democracy. So a full democracy for all people who live there. So what's your response to that that argument?

So look, again, I don't disagree the situation as Grim. And also I'll say I worked on some of those negotiations that John Kerry led in 2014. I was part of that process, you know, that during present, you know, under President Obama. Um and Yeah, some of the assumptions and those

in that old way of doing things were deeply problematic. For example, the idea that we couldn't touch security assistance for Israel, uh, and we need to give them a blank check because if we start to, you know, enforce or threaten or Just basically say forget even threaten or leverage. Just say, you know what? If you're not behaving in a way that is consistent with our policy and our interests and our laws, we're just not going to give you these weapons and not sell you these weapons.

Which is really what my position is now and where J Street is um and has been for a long time. We were advocating last week, you know, for forty senators to vote against these kinds of uh pieces uh these kinds of weapons. So I'm not arguing for that the liberal Zionist old position of let Israel do whatever it wants and let's just work this out, right? We can use leverage. We do have leverage. Uh and at the same time I also don't think the answer is, well, we should support Hamas or we should be

No one's saying that. Let's just throw that's like it feels like it's a straw man that we're leaning on here to make a silly argument. Fuck him us. Everyone agrees fuck him us. Okay, well let's just say this. I actually think what you do have a problem is you have extremists on both sides. You have Netzanyao and you have Hamas, right? And let's not forget, in the nineties when we actually almost did get to a peace deal, it was Hamas bus bombing.

uh in that then brought Netanyahu to power. These two guys, these two sides, they're two sides of the same coin. They're thriving off building off each other. Uh you know, and similarly in the two thousands, right, like Netanyahu actually has Millions of dollars in cash from Qatar landing in Ben Gurian airport and being pushed into Gaza, you know, to pay off Hamas and empower Hamas and keep it quiet while he's purposefully weakening alternative moderates on the Palestinian side. So the point is.

What what what J Street advocates for and what we do when we talk to Israelis and Palestinians on the ground is there is a, I think, still a strong minority who wants to work. towards that alternative vision, both on the Israeli and the Palestinian side. Whether that we don't call it a two state solution, we actually call it we've started calling it a twenty-three state solution, because we don't think it's just gonna be

a deal that gets a new Palestinian state and Israel being living side by side. We think it needs to be part of a regional integration that actually has Israel at peace with all of its neighbors, which creates a lot of incentives for the Israelis. Uh and part of that is a new Palestinian state. Now, when you do polling like that and you present Israelis with if the President of the United States were to come to to Israel and say, here's a plan.

End all the wars. This was done during during the war in Gaza. We're gonna end the war in Gaza. We're gonna get the hostages out. We're gonna pursue a plan that ultimately ends with Israel at peace with all of its neighbors. And as part of that, you can have a Palestinian state. Like that kind of proposal still gets sixty percent in Israel. Isn't that a lot of hurdles to set up uh before the Palestinians who are just like, I just wanna like live in

peace and with self determination. Suddenly like Israel has to make peace with every single neighbor before they can have that No, it's actually not that complicated. You just do the both processes at the same time. And at the end of the day, that's really about peace with Saudi Arabia and everybody else goes along. Hasn't that been pretty complicated?

It is complicated. But so is but so is a Palestinian state on its own. You're trying to create and by the way, I should say the problem, like you said, there's a lot of non-believers on the Palestinian side too. Polling in the the Palestinian public is also pretty terrible right now, right? On both sides. Um, but at the same time, on the Palestinian side, again, if you actually offer them a pathway, those numbers change dramatically. If you just say what makes the most sense now.

I mean the overwhelming majority is still for armed resistance, but there's still forty percent who are pushing for this two state solution. And the other thing I'll say about this is You know, and I this goes back to my days again working at the State Department on these. When you present both sides of the public with, here's a deal, would you take it? And you present it to the Israeli public.

You know, and you do polling, you get to about forty percent and you present it to the Palestinians and like here's a deal, would you take it? 40%. Then you say, here's a deal, and the other side has already agreed to. The numbers jump to like 65%, 70%. Point is I still think there is a desire on both parts both sides.

To get there. And I think what you have to start doing slowly, and it's going to take time, is get away from this dynamic where it's Hamas on the one side representing the Palestinians and Bibinatanyao on the other side representing the Israelis, and they're playing off each other, and they're strengthening each other, and they're weakening all of the alternatives.

You're gonna have elections in Israel later this year. Um that's a real opportunity. We just saw what happened in Hungary. And there is an opportunity that those elections aren't gonna necessarily bring you the most left-leaning government you could ever imagine in Israel. The alternative to Netanyahu is probably kind of a center to center right government, but it's one where at least you have people you can work with.

Well let's talk about the Netanyahu piece of this'cause look I again I greatly dislike Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. I have for a very long time. I think he's corrupt. I think he's racist, um, I think he's bad for Israel. Um but I do I feel like In the US, people talk about him sometimes as if getting rid of him might f is like a quick fix and will fix everything. And I just like it seems very unlikely to me. As you mentioned, like the c the country has lurched to the right.

You've got liter like violent extremists, like literal terrorist sympathizers, like this guy, Itamar Ben Gavir, who are now in government. And by the way, his support for his party in polls is going up and up and up. um, not down. Even the moderate candidates, though, they're not that liberal on the Palestinian issue. Like the head of the moderate uh Yashar party just visited a north uh a West Bank settlement. and that it was like tied to some really horrible abuses. Yair Lapide seemed to back

Mike Huckabee's bizarre claim that Israel has like a right to take over the whole Middle East because of biblical claims. So like again, it would be great to see that in Yahoo Gan and like preferably in a prison somewhere, but isn't there a lot of evidence that For the Palestinians and for the Palestinian issue, the even more moderate parties are not gonna be all that much better. Yeah.

I think what you will see is First of all, you're gonna stop digging, right? So going back to Ben Gear, for example, yeah, his numbers have gone up, but also Smotchurch's numbers have gone down, these two parties together. His numbers is terms of Real extremists currently. government. Yeah. Exactly. Two extremists currently in the government basically stays the same.

Um, but exactly guys like Smotrich and Ben Gavir aren't in this new government, right? And Smotrich and Ben Gavir, these extremists, play this unique role of essentially being kingmakers, which gives them huge amounts of leverage.

In Israeli decision making and pushes the government to more terrible and terrible places. Whereas if you had instead guys like Yair Lapid or Yair Golan, who are not ideal, but these are kind of the Israeli center left playing the kingmaker role, uh that's a meaningful difference. Yeer Golan being uh you know a a a retired general who ran down to you know southern Israel on October seventh.

Uh and saved a lot of people, just basically got up and r went down there, but also is very much arguing for a two-state solution and is arguing for some of these. Um And what you could get then at least is a government that at least starts cracking down on things like what we are seeing in the West Bank and extremist settler violence in the West Bank. We're at J Street pushing for legislation actually on Capitol Hill called the West Bank Violence Prevention Act.

That at this point has overwhelming support of Senate Democrats, more than 40, and 130 or so Sen uh members of the House. Which would start to impose sanctions on these guys, on these extremist settlers, but could actually make a real profound difference because

all these things, the violence and the settlements and all of it is tied together, all these institutions are tied together. You can actually start to apply a real pressure and change behavior. Um, and so I think there's opportunities to we're not solving this problem anytime soon. But if you have a government that is at least More restrained and also

cares about the US Israel relationship because it's very clear now. And this is also another thing that's started happening in Israel in the last couple of weeks in particular. You've seen it with some of the polling that's come out about Israel and you've seen it with um you know, uh what's happened with with this vote last week in the Senate, there finally is a questioning that's coming to the center of Israeli politics of like, what's happened here? How is our relationship with the US?

Collapsing in such an extreme way. And as that happens, I think there's

You're gonna have a government that is more centrist, not great, but is gonna care more about that. And that gives us more leverage and also creates a situation where they start to potentially at different moments say, well, yeah, maybe uh parts of the party of our government would like to do this thing in the West Bank or in Gaza, but we're actually worried about the Americans and their opinion and we care about, for example, what Democrats also think of us.

And so we're gonna restrain ourselves more and you start to move, not we're not solving this problem any immediately, but at least start to change the trajectory of this whole concept. Yeah, look, I... I... I...

I hope that's true. I don't know. I I guess I just worry that look when I see this effort, it's like very misguided effort by the third way to like just to try to declare that Hassan Piker, the a Twitch streamer is sort of like out of bounds, it seems to me to be part of a broader effort to silence critics of Israel in the US.

and chill debate about policy that frankly happens all the time in Israeli media. For example, right, like if if if a American politician was like, Israel is an apartheid state, that is uh the that's you know language that is um treated as outrageous or potentially anti Semitic all the time. But as you know, I mean in in twenty twenty one, the most prominent Israeli human rights organization in Israel

called Israel an apartheid regime. Um, and I was just like, and that was in 2021, and I've just sort of pushed back on this idea that You know, maybe the Knesset is growing increasingly concerned about like sort of view US views of dis of laws and decisions like that, because uh pretty recently Israeli lawmakers passed a law to expand the death penalty, but only for Palestinians.

Which seems like a pretty like egregious example of the kind of law or policy that uh Betzelem was talking about when they wrote that paper several years ago. So I mean, aren't those pretty clear cut examples of kind of apartheid like or you know, un you know, e unequal treatment of individuals based on religion? Um, and shouldn't we be having a more honest conversation about that kind of stuff in the United States and not like doing what the third way is doing here? Yeah.

I mean we should be having an honest conversation about these things. Uh you know, I will say I'm not saying that the Knesset's moving further to the to the to the left. I think the if you look at the Israeli public and you look at polling, where we have elections in October, you're gonna have a different government. This government in Israel is horrific in all the different ways.

Um but it's not just this government. There's a lot of systemic and deeper things. And that's exactly the conversation I want us to be having. And I a hundred percent we were out there as an organization sharply critical about this. Um, but I think we just need to be careful when we have that conversation to not, you know, and like I not sway too far in the other direction to the point of, you know, essentially casting Israel as this.

You know, okay, there is ethnic cleansing in Israel's history. There's probably ethnic cleansing in cases of I'd say 50 or 100 of the countries that exist in the world. including some very recent as well. And so what we just have to be careful to do is not turn Israel into it we need to normalize our relationship.

Israel, right? That's what I've actually, that's one of the things we've argued for a long time. That means it no more blank check. Let's treat Israel like a normal country, right? And and and let's have those hard conversations. It also means let's Not treated as this uniquely evil or sinister thing, which I think is happening in some far extreme places.

So I think I agree with you with the whole third way conversation here of like turning Hassan Piker into some kind of measuring stick for all this. Um, you know, I I don't think that, you know.

I listened to the interview with with John Favreau. I don't think Hassan Piker is anti-Semitic. I just think his views are misinformed. And in many ways, I just think we need to be careful to not go in that direction because if you want to ultimately In the United States, build a political coalition that's actually going to win in 26 and more importantly in 28.

I don't think that most people are are where he is. I think most people are kind of in this middle in this position. It's not the middle ground of Democrats versus Republicans. I'd argue it's the middle ground of where the Democratic Party is.

Which is just kind of like, yeah, there's all kinds of horrible stuff happening there and we should do something about that and let instead of just letting them use our weapons. But also I don't think these people are the devil necessarily, right? And and so that's that's what I'm arguing for. I hear that. Like I I don't think people I don't think Hassan is arguing that like Israel's the devil or that Israeli people are evil in any way. I think what what's happening and what I think

the sort of political class can sometimes miss because they've been having these conversations for years. You know, people like you are genuine experts in the founding documents of Israel, right? And maybe sometimes we make a mistake when we kind of try to pull from history.

Like what I think the the average American's experience of what's happening in Israel right now, especially young people, if they started paying attention to politics a couple of years ago, they just see intolerable amounts of killing.

By Israel, first in Gaza, now in Lebanon and Iran, and they're doing it with American weapons. And then if you're my age, You've been kind of watching, you know, Netanyahu since two thousand nine sort of doing his best to prevent the Palestinian state from being created, coming to Congress. To insult Barack Obama and try to blow up the Iran nuclear deal in 2015, and then just wrapping his arms around Donald Trump in the biggest kind of bear hug.

ever. And so it's like, it's not that people have deeply held views about the origins of Zionism or because they're anti-Semitic. They're just like, why is this really strong country bombing the shit out of

Gaza over and over again. And why are we giving them weapons to do it? Why am I paying for that? Right. And it's they're just horrified by it. And like it's a visceral reaction that I think, you know, like Jonathan Greenblatt will try to like Scold me if I use the wrong words to try to prevent this conversation from happening, but it it's happening no matter what.

Yeah, no, I I look, I I can't disagree with a lot of that in terms of the fact that I mean, Bibi Netanyahu is an asshole and I've also been living with him for fifteen years, right? I mean, my first government job was working on Iran in the Pentagon in two thousand nine, just literally starting about a month or two after he came into office. And he's been the problem since then for years and years. And so um we're not in a different place on on that at all. Um And I think

He's he's the one who's done the most damage to this entire nature of the relationship. But I agree, it is bigger. They're the history is longer. We can have those honest conversations. I mean, it's one of the reasons now, like I don't know if you've paid attention. We've taken a fair amount of flack for it. J Street, we've been advocating for years, right, for this position of you can have both. You know, a support for Israel and no blank check. Let's ask all the hard questions.

So last week we came out with a new position uh that's flared up a lot of interest, which is basically to say there's three pieces to the US-Israel security relationship. Right. The first piece is, you know, we you know, we do operational cooperation on certain things. When it's in our interest, we should do that, whether it's our militaries working together.

Whether it's sharing intel, which they do help us with with everything from ISIS to Iran to all kinds of other challenges, when it makes sense, we can do that. Two, basically they get Four billion dollars a year from us, right? And have been for years and years and years. And J Street's position is.

It's time for that to end. It's basically a financial subsidy, right? Yeah. Uh and there's no reason that they don't need this financial subsidy for anything anymore. Israel at this point, it's a country with a per capita GDP similar to um France or the UK or Germany or any of these very wealthy out countries, they don't need this money. They have a they have a forty five billion dollar budget. So let's just

kind of phase that out relatively quickly. And by the way, I'm not the only guy saying that. Rahm Emanuel is saying that. Bibi Netanyahu is saying that. Lindsey Graham is saying that. AOC is saying that. It's one thing everybody agrees on. It's time for that money to go. Um and then the third piece is when it comes to arm sales. There's some things that really do make sense, like Iron Dome, for example, right? Missile defense system that protects Israeli civilians uh from attacks.

Th there are some people who argue that the Iron Dome i enables, you know, more militarism by the IDF because they know that they can repeatedly bomb a country like Iran and then just be protected from incoming fire. I'm just sort of laying out the other side of that debate for listeners.

No, for sure. And my argument on that is if you go back, for example, and imagine there are moments when that might be true, but if you really think about it in totality, imagine if on October 7th, Israel didn't have those systems. and hundreds of more in the aftermath when when Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran started launch and Houthis started launching missiles at Israel. If Israel didn't have the capabilities to protect civilians, first of all, just on a human life perspective,

We're talking about there's somewhere between five hundred thousand and seven hundred thousand American citizens living in Israel. Uh that's a real issue. But also What do you think the Israeli response would have been if a couple of thousand more people would have been killed, you know, as a result of these missiles landing in their cities? I think there would have been more killing of Palestinians.

For example. But you know, but even you know, um, so our I would argue for Iron Dome, but I also think when it comes to other weapon systems, let's just apply You know, law the laws that exist on the books already and apply and hold Israel to the same standard as every other country. Uh, which means there's certain things they wouldn't get. Uh, you know, especially, you know, there's a there's a law called the Lay Leahy Law which reviews unit by unit what is what

our partner countries are doing in the world. There's a special process for Israel that is different than and it's pretty much the most lenient process that any country in the world gets. We don't need that. Israel doesn't need that. That's not good for US interests. It's not good for Israel. Um there's, you know, other laws which look at if you're preventing aid from going in, um American aid from going in, you should be cut off from certain weapons.

Again, uh we should have done that. Biden administration should have done that. Uh I was part of the Biden administration. It didn't do that. I disagreed with that at the time. I kind of evolved on that as the I will admit I evolved on that as as the you know, as the war went on. Um You know, and I certainly am there now, right? Where it's time to cut off some of these weapons. So you can be just discerning and nuanced in all of this. Is my view.

I totally hear that. Look, and I I I think I'm really glad that J Street is part of this conversation and was lobbying senators to cut off certain types of US military. I think the votes last week were what, for one thousand pound bombs and like armored bulldozers. There's absolutely no reason the US needs to be providing those systems to Israel, especially given the context right now.

I think you're right that we sh absolutely should not be giving a rich country four billion dollars a year for no reason for military support. By the way, money is fungible and that money can then be you know, they're using that to fund a universal healthcare system that a lot of people here would love to have. Um and so I I'm glad that like this conversation has become

more nuanced and more rational and that uh people are less scared of getting like slapped down if you sort of break from the eighth APAC party line or orthodoxy going forward. I do think the challenge the Democratic Party leaders are having is Um, the base of the party, young people have moved way further, way faster than the Democratic uh elected officials have, even if Democratic Party elected officials have moved really, really fast, historically speaking on this.

Yeah. No, I think that that's true. Um, but I also think we need to balance that with the sort of independent voter and the non-base and majority sort of normy voter, right? And I think you're right. If you look at young people and their view on this,

You know, somebody like me, I imagine somebody like you were rough probably roughly the same age, right? Uh You know, we both grew up with kind of Israel of Itzhak Rabin, which was not the you know, Joe Biden grew up with the Israel of I should start with Joe Biden grew up with the Israel of um really the post Holocaust scrappy country, came out of

You know, essentially underdog and and every event he would do on this always started with his story of going to Israel in nineteen seventy two in Golden May Year. So he had it. Brutal. One mentality, right? Yeah. Like folks like you or I grew up with a liberal Israel that was powerful but was looking to make peace.

Right. Um, at least I did. Um, and then you look at, you know, people, you look at my kids and you look at um just everybody again, anybody under the age of 25 or 30 doesn't remember a world without Bibi Natanyao. Uh and and it's a huge problem. Um, but I also think, you know

There's still the majority of the Democratic Party that's not necessarily there, despite those being the loudest voices, right? Um, and certainly it's not the majority of, you know, American voters who who are kind of at this. As far left as the base, as far as the base has gone on this. And so we're gonna have to find

I think we just might it's a danger of going too far. I think you're right. I also think politicians haven't moved far enough yet. Um but I think the twenty seven will be a really interesting dynamic. I hope that there can be That could be a unifying moment for politicians and Democratic Party leaders and candidates to be able to essentially express a position of not throwing the US-Israel relationship in the garbage.

And still recognizing that there is potential value there, uh, while at the same time saying the way this has been done in the past needs to end. Uh, and for me, the answer is again, it goes back to. Treat Israel like a normal country. Treat Israel like a normal ally. Whether you want to call it an ally or not. Some would say ally, some you know, others more opposed can just say normal country. That means on both sides.

Right. That means no more blank check. It also means there's some things we'll work with them on because we have an interest in doing. For sure. I I think that's right. Look I I think I think a normie voter

the most powerful ar have not thought about this for one fucking second. And the most powerful argument to them is gonna be let's stop spending money on wars or giving it to other countries and spend it at home and right. So like that is really gonna be the the People are gonna have to sketch out thoughtful nuances of foreign policy because that kind of like nationalist isolationist view is gonna be the

the uh siren song politically that is incredibly powerful that frankly works on me in a lot of instances and is um I think something we all just have to to keep in mind as we are seeped in this stuff and have more nuanced views that might not, you know, kind of get to the average voter on a

On a on a random day. But either way, look, I Elon, I really appreciate you uh coming on to talk about this stuff. I imagine this will not be the last time we'll be talking about this. Maybe we'll pop back on to talk about Another round of talks tomorrow in Pakistan with the Iranians. Hopefully they're not as terrible as the last one, but we'll find out. I think I told you before we started is uh I I I kinda feel

Like we're just in it'll be fine. Trump will make something up and we won't go back to war, but we also won't be in a position where we've made any progress in the straight off where moves will remain closed. That's that's kind of like my my guess on all that. But Wonderful. Well, could could be worse, I guess. Uh thank you so much for coming on. Uh where can folks find uh JC work and what we guys are up.

Sure. Well you can look us up on Jstreet.org. We also have um our uh our sub stack that Jeremy and I Jeremy Benami, our founder, uh writes, um myself, Word on the street, but really the website and um and sign up for, you know, we do a lot of different things. We do, you know, we work with candidates, we do a lot of lobbying on the hill.

Um, we are going deep into American Jewish community, trying to change a conversation and have this nuanced conversation. Uh so there's ways to get involved all over the country, 20 chapters around the country who are doing this kind of work. to really build at the end of the day a liberal alternative to you know that conversation that until recently was just an APAC conversation and and this is what we're trying to build in this really democratic politics with the Jewish community overall.

Excellent. Well thank you again.

That's our show for today. Thanks to Alain Goldenberg for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday from DC. How about that? If you want to listen to PodSave America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to Cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

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