Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm John Fabrum. I'm John Loveett, and Tommy Dithor. On today's show, Kamala Harris and Joe Biden call for Supreme Court reform while Donald Trump handered to Christian activists and crypto bros with just under 100 days to go in the 2024 campaign. We are a sub-100 boys. VP shortluster Governor Tim Walz stops by to talk about going after the weirdos and his theory of progressive messaging, and of course we're going to
get into why the JD Vance debut has been such a disaster. But first, Donald Trump is clearly upset he's not running against Joe Biden anymore, he's still out on the campaign trail, doing impressions of the president and talking about his golf game, really focused. He's begun to pivot to attack in Kamala Harris, but so far it's a bit of a kitchen sink approach. Here's a sampling of comments he's made over the past couple of days.
She isn't like Jewish people, she doesn't like Israel, that's the way it is, and that's the way it's always going to be, she's not going to change. I'm running against a low IQ individual, her. I'm not even talking about him, her. I got a low IQ individual. And now that she's in this position, they're trying to make her into a, let's say Margaret Thatcher, I don't think so, it's not going to happen. Margaret Thatcher didn't laugh like
that, did she? Did she? We're not going to let her turn the United States into communist San Francisco. Again, she has no clue, she has no clue, she's evil. I want to be nice, but they all say, I think he's changed, I think he's changed since two weeks ago. Something affected him. No, I haven't changed. Maybe I've gotten worse actually because I get angry. Maybe I've gotten worse. So Trump's message is that Kamala Harris is stupid evil and
I guess hates Jews so much that she married one. I guess that's what, that's what the message is. Trump also posted a digital ad today that's another version of the Harris in her own words attack about position she's taken in the past. Tommy, why do you think Trump doesn't have a tighter argument about her on the stump? I kind of think he's just emptying the Oppo clip. You know, like he treats these rallies as just kind of live fire focus groups, he's with works, he's with they liked, and you're
right, I watched the Minnesota rally. He went back to attacking Joe Biden, I think four or five times. We were making fun of them for walking around, we were making fun of them for pointing the golf game like all of it. I mean, I guess he's still making fun of Hillary Clinton. So what should we expect? Right, we're still locking her. Yeah, I mean, you know Bruce Brinstein is still placed under road. I mean, you just, you do the hits.
That's why you go to the Trump. That's what they were here. Yeah, I'm sure the campaign is like testing all these messages in a real and deliberate way and that we'll see the most potent messages in the TV ads and in the debates. But right now he's just kind of having fun with it. Yeah, if you look at the turning point speech, for sure. I went to the speech because that's where he says questions, but one more time and then never vote
again. And I was like, all right, let's let's watch this thing and see how I was like an hour and eight minutes. Jesus fucking Christ has kind of shut up. That's a short one. But it said it was about 20. Right. But but in that speech, he's at the beginning, he's cast around. He's talking about the assassination attempt and being talking about bullet versus fragment. He's kind of rambling. He's doing random attacks
here and there. But then towards the end of the speech, there's a more tighter policy based hit on Kamala Harris. And you can see, oh, that's where the campaign wants him to be. But he's still doing what Tommy's saying, which is just like, you know, trying not to material in the run. Yeah, he's more of a hazard plane with my fan club sort of guy. Yeah. So it's just if the most committed supporters clap, then that's more important than
whatever. Chris Lissavita and Susie Wiles are telling him, I'm sure, or putting in ads. What's your sense just listening to these events and just overall how far along the entire campaign is in pivoting to Harris? They do have a lot of these attacks in ads now. I mean, if you looked at kind of the Trump Twitter feed today, it was every hour, a new video
about a new subject area. So it does feel like they're all doing what he's doing. I mean, it sort of like Trump's the, he's the stand up like at the small club working on his material before he goes on the road, right? Like that, that I think they're all in that, in that place. But it does seem like they're focusing on just calling our a San Francisco radical liberal, which is kind of the oldest public and playbook out there. Yeah, I wonder
right? Like if he knew that Kamala Harris was going to be the nominee, is he still planning to go to Minnesota? Right? Like is the, are we seeing the last bits of the campaign as it was envisioned before Joe Biden stepped aside? I don't know. Also like going to think, like he's still doing things that reflect a campaign that was in a much more confident position. Like, you know, going to the crypto conference. Like these are gilding the
lily type places to go. So I think my question is like, does does his travel change to some to, to, to, I don't know, other states? I think there's an obvious like opportunity to playing up her old comments, right? I'm clearly there testing this. I'm sure it is probably more damaging with the voters they need to win the election than some of the really gross stuff that they've been saying and that the larger right wing media universe is saying.
I do think there's a risk for them though in that it is very backward looking. And so if their entire campaign and their entire message about her is look at things that she did in 2019 or 2020 or before that, you know, it's, it's useful to them to try to define her before she can define herself. But I think at some point, there's a danger there for
them if they just do that the whole time, I think. Yeah. I think that's right. I think like Joe Biden's superpower was that he was so established and so kind of safe that their efforts to paint him as somehow unsafe and dangerous. So you shouldn't even listen
to him. We're not effective, right? Like are in the go all the way back like the concerns about Joe Biden in the primary in 2020 was that once you face the same onslaught as everybody else, his favorabilities and the poll numbers would drop the same way others would, but that didn't happen, right? That was his, that was his strength. I think the energy, the enthusiasm, the fact that so much of the country is saying they want new and normal. They're trying
in this very quickly to try to make her seem not new and not normal. But to try to get to the point where people don't hear her when she lays out the actual plans back and forth because we know that the election has fought on those stakes. Kamala Harris will win. I just don't think they have time. I just don't think they have time to, to like so damage her while she is out there making this forward looking case, right? They're just
not, they just don't have the space. You guys feel in shock that the new Trump isn't really taking not only has the assassination attempt not changed him for the better, but now he's acknowledging it has changed him for the world. It's so funny. It's like, it's like I saw my life flash before my eyes and I realized I need to spend more time attacking
my enemies. I'm not petty enough. There are a lot of days in this job where I feel like a scoundrel and like we just have the collective political memory of a goldfish, but even knowing that it was still like shocking to see reporters regurgitating these lines about him responding in a spiritual, subdued way to the assassination attempt. Like, come on. I will say to the credit of the press, it was a lot fewer reporters. There were a few
times around. Like a lot of people have learned. Most, I think most people have learned. There's still a few stragglers who were 70 year old men don't change. I also think, well, I also think he realized, you notice at the end of that, he said, well, I'm worse because you know what? I'm angry. I'm angry. He realizes that anger is way more important to his pitch than unity. Like he needs to seem like the angry outsider who's mad at the system and
wants a tear down. He can't be all like, let's come together and bring the good. That's just not, people will know that's not who he is and that's not his message. Yeah. I think that's right. Also, like, when he first said, I'm not going to be nice, it has to start by saying, I can't be nice. You can't, that's not what you need. You need me to be your vengeance. I need to be greedy for you. I need to be mean for you. You need
me to be that. Yeah. I think he has some advisors who were telling him sand off the edges, like, like, leave the mean tweets part of your personality out of it and you will reach the voters you need to win the selection. I think those people are right. But then there's always going to be Donald Trump who's like in 2016, I did a hardcore scorched earth base only strategy and I won. Yep. And no one can tell me otherwise. And I'm going to do what
I know is right. He's always running a primary. Well, I also, by the way, like, maybe, maybe playing it safe was more right. I mean, I don't know. It could still be right, but it was more right two weeks ago. Yeah. So he did two events over the weekend worth talking about. On Friday, he spoke to a gathering of Christian activists called the Believer Summit. And then on Saturday, he spoke to a convention of cryptocurrency enthusiasts. Here's some of what he said.
We will be creating so much electricity that you'll be saying, please, please, President, we don't want any more electricity. We can't stand it. You'll be begging me. No more electricity, sir. Have a good time with your Bitcoin and your crypto and everything else that you're playing with Christians get out and vote just this time. You won't have to do it anymore. Four more years. You know what? It'll be fixed. It'll be fine. You won't
have to vote anymore. My beautiful Christians. So the, the you won't have to vote again, clip. Got a lot of play over the weekend. I think even Cardi B weighed in on Twitter. It's it went, it went pretty viral. Love it. What was your take on that? So I think people should be sharing it. They should be spreading it. It does show a total disregard for democracy.
He has made a version of this point before. What he is, what he is in the past when he has done this riff, what he has said is right now, you have to come out in numbers that overwhelm the ways in which I mean, just I'm just translating that you have to overwhelm democratic rigging the system. You wouldn't have to vote so hard. All of you wouldn't need
to vote if the system weren't rigged and they weren't faking the election results. So if you vote this time and I win, I'll stop all the electoral fraud and then you don't have to vote as much. That is the generous interpretation of it. But do I think he also enjoys that this sets off around of he's going to be a dictator on day one? Like do I think he is being like vague and anti-democratic and trolley on purpose? Absolutely. And by
the way, what he is saying is obviously false. They're trying to make it harder for people to vote. They're trying to disenfranchise people. And so I see nothing wrong with pointing out that what he is saying here is about the ways in which he poses a threat to democracy, even if it's I think a little different than what the more extreme version of interpretation. That's my that's my take. Tom, it's a good strong take. I mean, it could be, it could
be a couple of things. It could be vote for me or then I'll fix everything and you won't have to carry more. It could be vote for me this time and I won't run again and I won't carry anymore. It could be him signaling that he's going to end American democracy as we know it. I mean, I'm kind of an Occam's razor guy. I imagine he was just kind of making a joke that doesn't mean he's not a threat to democracy. And so I thought, you know, I
thought some of the reaction was a bit a bit high duchin over the weekend. I saw a bunch of Twitter users screaming at Kate Bettingfield who is Joe Biden's communications director and calling her a fascist and a trans supporter because she had a more. She's this crazy. You know, not charitable, but she sort of thought he was was not signaling that he was going to end democracy as we know it. You know, this is a woman who moved her family and small
kids to a city to work for Joe Biden to try to defeat Donald Trump. I think, you know, maybe pump the brakes up and tack in the modems of everyone who disagrees with you on this subject. But yeah, Donald Trump's a threat to democracy. This quote doesn't change it.
Yeah. Like, and he was why I think this is worth talking about because again, we are trying to persuade voters who don't like Donald Trump, but are not necessarily either sold on Kamala Harris or so scared of Donald Trump that they're not going to vote for him. And clearly, last time Trump wanted to stay in power so badly that he tried to throw away our votes and inside of violent insurrection, that's, that's just true. And there's no
evidence that he's changed in any way. In fact, as he acknowledged, he's gotten worse. So like, we don't, you don't need to put more spin on the ball than that, right? Like, that's who he is. That's what he said last time. I kind of landed where you did, Tommy, that it's, he doesn't care, right? And for it's, it's so, it fits well with the Biden campaign's message. And now the Harris campaign's message that Trump doesn't give a shit about
anyone but himself, right? He's saying everything to anyone that he needs to just to win right now. And then he's like, in four years, I'll fix everything and you have to worry about me. He doesn't give a shit what happens in politics after four years. He doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself, right? He just wants to win. That's all he cares about right now. And like, what happens when he wins? Anything's on the table, right? Like,
after what we saw a fucking last time, but I think that's where his mind was. He's done this, like, you sure? I think he doesn't care. I think he doesn't care who wins next time either, of course. But I like, again, like, this is just loose Trump having just kind of going back to his back catalog of riffs. And like, this is a riff, like, I, I, I, I, there is just a collective, like, he does all these things before. Like, the, the,
the people are like, oh my god, he said, thin people don't drink, I cook. He's been doing that bit for years. For years. This is a bit he's done before. He's saying, I'll fix, they steal elections. I'll fix it so that you don't have to worry about anymore. Like, that, that I think is, like, the riff, that is the bit he was trying to do. The Christian activist event I get, why do you think he put in time at the, at the crypto
convention in Tennessee? I think this one's very simple. It's money and men. The crypto focus packs are raising hundreds of millions of dollars. There's one that's like, I think I've seated by coin base that has raised 200 million some of dollars. And so Trump wants that money. You know, he knows they spent 10 million against Kati Porter in the center
race here in California and he wants to get all their cash. Also, I think the Trump campaign rightly views crypto as a way to reach young men who might not otherwise care about politics, some of them are at this convention, some of them just care about crypto and don't want to be regulated. So that's why Trump flipped flopped this position on crypto. He left office
and he was like, crypto sucks. I don't think it's a good idea. And now he's full on pro crypto because like, you know, some VC guys in San Francisco had a fundraiser for him. Not unlike what he did with his position on the TikTok band, right? Yeah. And it's just, this is back to my point about where the in four years, it won't matter. Comment comes
in. It's, he's literally, he's just saying anything to anyone he needs. Like, and you could see that when you could hear that in the in the crypto comments, like, have fun with your crypto, your Bitcoin or whatever. He has no idea. Passion for the issue. Yeah. I would like to have someone ask Trump explain the blockchain. Yeah. Tell me about the blockchain. I don't know. I like any of us to explain the blockchain. But the I also, like, it's, this
is like the, the fucking endless perma challenge. It's like, this is also stupid and also ridiculous. But then you think, oh, he's also proposed a bunch of tariffs. You know what would make Trump feel all powerful for four years of president? Everybody was constantly afraid that he was about to apply some kind of a tariff that would affect their ability to produce
goods abroad. Like a lot of what he wants to do economically is to put more power in his hands to like choose winners and losers and kind of wheel the power of the White House. That's that is always on his mind. There's so many opportunities for corruption in all this. Well, and even if he doesn't decide to like stay in power forever, he's going to want four years of his supporters telling him how he's the most wonderful president who's
ever existed. So he's going to let them do whatever they want. This is why the JD Vance stuff and the project 2025 stuff and all that stuff is should be scary to people because even if you don't think Trump's into that, for the next four years, if he's in the White House, he's going to be like, yeah, I want to hear how great I am. So I'm going to let the people around me do whatever they want. Yeah. I mean, that's that's who comes along
with him in this coalition. That's we all have to remember. So the other big topic of political conversation has been Trump's running mate, JD Vance, who has yet to generate a good headline for the campaign since he was nominated. The Washington Post has a story about how people in Trump's orbit, including Lindsey Graham, we're trying to talk him out of picking Vance
right up until the last minute. Now we're on week two of the follow over Vance's comments to Tucker Carlson that America's run by too many quote, childless cat ladies who were miserable at their own lives. And then he went on to specifically mention Kamala Harris, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Pete Buttigieg. Vance also said that people without children should pay higher taxes. It's gotten so bad that even right wing media types are starting
to wints. Here's former Republican Congressman turned Fox News host, Trey Gowdy interviewing him on Sunday night because people are calling me who very much would like to support you and President Trump. Dr. Connie Rice does not have children. Neither does my friend, your colleague, Tim Scott. George Washington did not have biological children and neither did James Madison. So I think you will agree with me that direct all spring or not.
Not necessary to be fully invested in the future of this country. Of course not, Trey. I do think that being a parent actually has a profound effect on somebody's perspective and we should honor and respect that. But there are a whole host of people who don't have children for a whole host of reasons. And they certainly are great people who can participate fully in the life of this country. And that's not what I said,
Trey. If you look at what the left is done, they have radically taken this out of context. And in fact, aggressively lied about what I've said. It's, um, I always have to say that. So people with their children can still exist in America. Thanks, pal. Thanks, buddy. Wow. Appreciate the kind words. How about that? First of all, that's compassion and conservatism. If you haven't seen the full Trey Gowdy clip,
it's worth, it's worth watching in full. He tells a beautiful and moving story about two women he met and then reveals that they were nuns and how much they were caring and wonderful people. And you have to imagine JD Vance is sitting in a studio somewhere. He's got his fucking ear thing in listening to a full five minutes ripping him to pieces on Fox News. And the question comes is like, JD Vance, tell me where I'm wrong. You seem
like a huge asshole. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really unbelievable. What do you think about this? I think this is so politically damaging. Some people choose not to have children. And that is totally fine. And that's a valid decision and to say that they're lesser citizens somehow in this country is outrageous. But there's also countless people who desperately want kids, but can't have them for physical reasons, for medical reasons, for personal reasons.
They get afforded them. And he's telling those people they're lesser citizens too. Like that is such a cool. He said to somebody who's like, of course, because I think children are so important, people who can't get pregnant or can have children. Of course, I feel for them. It's like, well, that's not what you're, that's not what it's sound in my way. You're not going one by one to every woman in the country, being like, now, are you
doing this by choice? Or is there something that you're not telling us? Like, how fucking dare you make assumptions about every person that doesn't have kids? The whole reason you let people mind their own businesses. You have no idea what's going on in their lives. Exactly. That was exactly Pete Buttigieg's response to that. We're doing this. We're doing this. We're doing this. Which is what he said. He said, he said, I have two kids and he's like, and we had a
lot of trouble and we took us a long time to have these two children. He's like, and I'm sure JD Vance didn't know that, but that's exactly why you don't make guesses and broad generalizations about a whole category of people. But as someone who is, who's struggled to have kids and now does, I cannot tell you how personally cruel and painful those comments are. No one is ever going to forget that.
If you're a woman who is miscarried and now doesn't have children and you desperately wanted them and you hear that, that cuts you so deep and it will stay with you for life. He also said that parents should get more votes. Did you see that one? Where he said that if he said what happens is if you should get as many votes as children that you have,
so that the children shouldn't vote, obviously until they're a voting age. So the parents now get, a parents with three kids get four votes or two votes and then single people don't get that vote. So he literally wants to make people without kids have less of a voice in public life. He has already said that. He also then said he's sympathetic to the idea that federal agents should be able to track down women who travel out of state
to get abortions because it is banned where they live. So he wants a federal response to women who leave a state with an abortion ban and try to get an abortion out of state. This is all, like, and I talked about this bit with Governor Walls, but also like, you know, he's also not in the party that's trying to make sure people have prenatal care, people have pre-K, people have health care and access to affordable education all the
way, all the rest, right? So it's like, what is the, what is the only kind of incentive that they want to provide to have children? Like the fear of their moral judgment is a big piece of this, but it's also just this, it speaks to the real mistake in JD Vance, which is like, he is really kind of letting the world into a very small niche right wing conversation around family where they've been talking to you. He did heal Elon Musk now or part of this.
And it is a kind of combination of like, of right wing, you know, Christian judgmental policymaking on top of a kind of like patriarchal idea of like what the family should be, like what people should do, like what's the right way to live, telling people how to live. And once it gets just a little bit of light in there, everyone's like, what the fuck are you people talking about?
They say it's not even Christian, frankly, it's like, as you mentioned the story about the nuns and pretty like it's just, it's so, it is an, it is an extreme ideology that is somewhat new in the last several decades, right, where like this, I mean, AOC tweeted that it sounds like fucking insell culture, which you know, there are a lot of paradoxes. Insellicism, exactly. It's totally intelligent. He is like a right wing blogs comment section became a person.
Yeah. He's going in some weird intellectual circles, it's like heritage, Peter Thiel, the Claremont Institute, even more of French people. Yeah, people never heard of. And these, like those guys are happy to debate some very out there political ideas because they don't have any consequences because they're not running for anything. But JD Vance kind of like dabbles in that and leaves this long paper and audio trail. And you got to wonder like how much of this to the Trump campaign find or vet?
I'm sure. Not all of it. Like, I also, so he says that childless people quote hate normal Americans for choosing a family. And now his defense is, he's like, well, Kamala Harris is anti family. The Democratic Party is anti family anti children. There is bipartisan legislation to your point to extend the child tax credit that stuck in the Senate where JD Vance works right now because Republicans did not want to give Joe Biden and Kamala Harris an election year win on the issue.
This passed the House overwhelmingly Republicans and Democrats. And we got to the Senate and they were like, Oh, it's April, it's spring. It's getting too close to the election. We want to kid so they care about, they care about rewarding families with kids and giving families with kids a break so much that they just like stuck this thing that they're for in the Senate because they didn't want it's the same thing with the fucking immigration deal.
It's just, it also, by the way, like it just also just goes to like the judgmental invasive kind of politics. This is because one thing that that JD Vance talked about is that how much he like he is more in favor, corner his own words, a child tax credit than he is to a universal child care, right? Because universal child care subsidizes parents who work, right?
And that he would rather subsidize, he would be still stuck in the Senate because Republicans, but that like, Oh, if you want that like he wants to encourage a traditional structure, right? So like universal child care is a kind of like way of appeasing kind of the left and like liberal people, especially liberal women. And it kind of just gets to this like kind of world view about like the left that he's kind of unable to stop himself from espousing.
What is the Trump campaign do about JD Vance? What? JD's in a tough spot because like the number one rule for Trump is you cannot back down and look weak, but boy should he be backing down and conceding some things and being like, I messed up, I was wrong about this, but these just bulldogging ahead and like, like love and mention, really like you have Republicans like Tray Gowdy, a basically begging him to clean this up. You've got Ben Shapiro criticizing him.
You've got Dave Portnoy, the head of Barstill sports being like, who is this idiot? How the hell did this guy get on the ticket and like Fox and friends, Brian Kilmeade was saying it too. They just, they can't seem to fix it. So it seems to me like they're just going to attack Harris, wait for the next news cycle, hope it all moves on. But man, like this guy is getting defined, JD Vance is getting defined in this first couple of weeks and it's entirely negative.
And we're not even having a conversation about how the he's manifestly unqualified for the job. And the fact that it got to the reason I brought up Fox and friends is you know Trump is seeing this now. Oh, yes. He has seen some of this criticism and the only thing that has surprised me, netware recording this on Monday is that we have not seen a leak yet that Trump is pissed to a donor to a friend like that. That'll be at a rally. You know it's coming, right?
Like I'm shocked that we haven't done. Don Jr. Getting some calls for sure. Yeah, the other, the other problem, right, is that okay. So there are all there's all these recordings that are floating out there. He's then doing a bad job of cleaning them up when he's doing a round of interviews. You could maybe say, all right, no more interviews. We got to get this guy on the stump. He's doing a bad job on the stump.
Like the fact that his convention speech was so disappointing, the rally speeches he's been giving, they are plotting not very well done, not very, he's just not that great. He moves too slow. So like what you would say is just get this guy out there, get him with a 10, 15 minute tight, good stump with a few new sharp hits on Conala Harris or whoever the VP pick is. But man, like I just, it's hard to this guy to run from this when he's just so unappealing at every setting.
He's also a lot of training wheel stuff. He's like doing interviews with Trump. What a waste of time. I know. It's also the challenge of the Trump Republican Party trying to rebrand itself as like the workers party, right?
Even if you decide to pivot from the tax cuts for the rich and the deregulation agenda and all that bullshit, they are so obsessed with the like weird cultural shit that even if they have an economic, popular story to tell, like JD Vance ostensibly does and has in Hillbilly, other regions and so on, like it's just going to get lost because they have all these other crazy ideas on cultural issues that are so out of step with mainstream America that that's going to get the attention, right?
And so like JD Vance could go give some stump about like how, you know, President Biden and Kamala Harris overlooked Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin and look at all these, like, but it's not going to get any attention because he's written all these things and said all these things in the past that just make him fucking weird. He's a weirdo. He's a weirdo. Let's talk about our Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris, on Monday.
She endorsed President Biden's brand new proposal for Supreme Court reform, which includes 18 year term limits for justices, an enforceable ethics code, and a constitutional amendment that would strip away criminal immunity for former presidents. The Harris campaign also needled the Trump campaign over their refusal to commit to the debate they had already agreed to and the campaign put out a statement saying Harris will be at the ABC debate on September 10th, whether or not Trump is there.
Clearly the energy and enthusiasm for Harris is unlike anything we've seen in politics for a very long time, which is great. They've raised over $200 million. They're reportedly going up on the air this week and Harris will be on the campaign trail in Atlanta Tuesday for the first time since she was in Milwaukee last week. What's your sense of how the overall strategies coming together? I like that they're going on offense. The original frame was kind of prosecutor versus convicted felon.
I think the bigger picture message is future versus the past, which is incredibly refreshing to hear. And obviously for obvious reasons Joe Biden couldn't really credibly be the one delivering that message, but he also wasn't great at laying out the second term agenda. And she sees that mantle and done so very quickly. Now both she and Biden are talking about this court reform stuff that I love because who doesn't support an 18 year term limit in a binding ethics code?
I bet those poll through the room. It's really a gamey well through the roof at a time when the faith and institutions is going down, including the courts. Like, it's a great idea. She's also, I think, very quickly walking back some positions from the 2020 primary that her team feels like are too progressive or too liberal. And that's going to bum out some Democrats, but it's probably necessary move. I just sketch that shit. You have the best position for the general election.
But it's smart to do that quickly, just rip that bandaid off. Yeah. We like, I don't know. It's like been a...
It's been a week. I know and I just We've said it what's happening is extraordinary the like sophistication and like of the campaign the amount that they've been able to mount But like the the videos the the digital strategy the speeches she's giving the tone the fact that it like feels like coherent national campaign with like a clear Overall messes like that is an extraordinary achievement like we're watching unfold and like I just I
I like think like all right, you know two weeks ago this enthusiasm was not there right like how do we make most of that Enthusiasm in this moment right not just with fundraising, but like there's something you know We were talking about this before recorded, but just that all of a sudden like there there's all these people on Like places like TikTok talking about how like hey, you know We may not agree with her and everything and yeah, she may be walking back some of these positions
But we're all coming together to do this in November We can protest in January we can be frustrated, but anybody that's not getting on board this train right now It's not understanding the stakes and like what is the vibe shift worth? I don't think we know yet, but it's just been so reassuring to see even see that change You know, I've seen a few comments like people being nervous that they're not up on TV yet or like she she's not on the road
More and stuff like that. I've just seen a few of them here and they are not much, but I like I don't think people understand like No one has ever built a plane in the air like this with less than a hundred days to go on a campaign a presidential campaign like Usually in a presidential campaign when you just start out your campaign Which she did as the presidential candidate you do like months of meetings with strategists and advisors That's why you're not on the road
You're not like taking vacation like you're sitting there with threat and you road test a stump speech right and then you refine the stump speech And that takes like for Obama that took us between I don't know February of 2007 to October to get it right
Oh, and he was bad for a while. He was really bad There was at one point where politics our state director was like maybe we shouldn't have him back in Iowa for a while because this is not going well It was off Remember that we were all in Iowa you guys were for obviously for Obama and
But both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were giving these one hour Meandering stump speeches one hour plus because they were getting questions and then trying to answer every question in their long Speech is so maybe there's some advantage in not having
I know you you you have to test a bunch of ads right before you just do the ads You want to test them to see if they work to see if they resonate if you're gonna spend that much money I mean there's so much to do and the fact that they have done this much with the help of you know Everyone else being really excited in a week's time is just mind-boggling. It's mind-boggling
So it's like I you know I do think on the on the supreme court reforms. Those are great People should just know that it is very unlikely to happen without 60 votes in the Senate or a Democratic House or 51 senators who are willing to get rid of the filibuster for these reforms I do think the constitutional amendment to get rid of criminal immunity for former presidents Which is now there thanks to the supreme court is mean constitutional amendments are like the bars so high
It's two-thirds of both houses of Congress. It's three-fourths of the state legislatures You know that's but good for Joe Biden for like laying down this marker Which he had said he was going to do before he left the race and you know good for Kamala Harris for to lay down the marker because You know filibuster reform started years ago when we only had a few few senators saying they're willing to do it
And now it's like everyone but Joe Manchin and Kirsten cinema. So that's that's what you do back to the year the point about Enthusiasm and donations. How much do you think that matters right now? I think the money in the volunteers are very real and I do like I with you that
It's silly. I think to criticize them for not being on TV right now, but I do hope they're up soon because we are in a race to define Kamala Harris before Republicans try to define her their way and so You can get a bunch of TV ads on you can get But these new volunteers at the doors to backstop those ads with conversations with people most people just don't know much about Kamala Harris And that's the truth you the vice president, but a lot of people won't know much about her so
Getting ahead of these negative attacks is hugely important. I also like there's been so much value to having I candidate who is not just like we have now have some of that is kind of taking the fight to Trump And I do think that in ways that are very hard to measure I think that's inspired a lot of people to just say what they think more right like I yes
There are people out there auditioning to be vice president. You're gonna hear from one in a minute But I also just think there's been a kind of collective Realization that all of us I think because of a feeling of like concern a feeling of anxiety a feeling of I don't know being to spirit it like All of us were collectively not fighting hard enough And I think that that's incredibly valuable and another point that the governor who makes is just about like wires
Why are we losing some of these disaffected people? Well some part of it is if people just want to be part of a winning team A team of people that are excited to be on that team and like that enthusiasm gap was real There were people that are extremely excited for Donald Trump
And we just didn't have that on our side and now we do and like we'll see what the ultimate value is But man is it is it nice to see yeah, I mean you can make an argument that an enthusiastic voter and an un enthusiastic voter Both of them voting for your candidate the vote counts the same right I get that but we were in a situation With Biden where the polls consistently showed that younger voters especially younger black and brown voters were
Um just not enthusiastic and and maybe weren't ready to back Biden and the Biden campaigns argument was well You know what they're not enthused now they will come home in November maybe right but in a close race
We were in a situation then where there was a legitimate case to be made that a low turnout election Might help Democrats because if it looked more like a midterm electorate or a special electorate than it was going to benefit Joe Biden I don't think we're in that situation anymore because now
Democrats can actually focus on registering and turning out excited voters who otherwise may have stayed home And having this many volunteers means you can have that many more conversations with people who like weren't going to vote for Kamala Harris or weren't going to vote for Donald Trump maybe weren't going to vote at all And now you can have more conversations and they see that their friends are excited and they're like oh I want to hear more about that like they
It does bill I think especially in a close race. I think we're being honest the 2020 election was an anti-Trump coalition that came together to defeat him Yep, it was not a pro Joe Biden coalition Maybe we could have brought back that anti-Trump coalition this cycle
But I think frankly we're in a much better position because we're giving people something to be for and something to be excited about And that's what was missing We talked about how she should respond to Trump's attacks we talked about last episode Like how do you think she should be going on offense and What do you think the campaign should be doing between now and when they announce the VP which will likely be next week at some point According to their timeline
Yeah, it's a good question, you know like you sort of look like what sort of breaking through and You know The the renaissance of their weird has been been interesting to watch a kind of new take on like the challenge right is like Trump Even when he says something terrible. It's very it's almost always something terrible He said some version of before it's like how do you make Trump feel new and interesting to be covered?
I think new language like we've seen has been doing that I think having all these different VP candidates vying has been doing that I think as she's sitting the road like you know, we talked about you know One what she's not been able to do where she like you know They're currently working on a convention speech without the like year of trying stuff Just trying different versions of riffs trying different versions of attacks trying different versions of lines
But the plus side of that right is every time she speaks and tries something new it is new right like it's a new It's a new attack. It's a new take on Trump. It's a new way of of her campaigning And I think that that's like a real that's a cool thing about this moment It is I mean you hate to make any campaign about just like winning the new cycle because it's about bigger than that
But with less than a hundred days left. Yeah, the reason the JD Van stuff is so valuable is because now we could have had a week about Kamala Harris and her right, you know, like the Trump campaign attacking her and he said we had a week about JD Vance
She also has remember at the beginning of a campaign in a general election campaign You do all of your policy rollouts if you're the candidate in the spring And so and she hasn't done any of that yet and look a lot of her policy will be similar to what Joe Biden has already proposed But she's going to get to eat up some new cycles
Propose it and get some attention proposing new policy. So she'll have that She'll have the convention and I do think she's the point about needing new information If she can pivot to because she's got to go on offense against Trump She can pivot to talking about what Trump will do in the second term That's new information for voters and I think that she if she wants to make news about Trump You know, you're going to have a better chance making news talking about what he's planning
Then talking about like everything people know about Trump already and his character and all that I also think one thing that Obama was really good at in 2007 2008 was Delivering a hit as a joke or with humor generally to like soften it and also make it more interesting and yeah You know
Biden I think struggled to do that recently, you know, he seemed defensive and angry at times Kamala Harris is very good at delivering a hit while laughing And I think the calling Republicans weird narrative is just perfectly folded into that just they are weird Project 2025 is weird calling the Janskiks insurrectionists Hostages and playing their song is weird QAnon is weird bringing that all up is worth it I even think that when she does the prosecute versus felon riff
There's a way to do that where you sound like like your fingers pointing angry kind of the and she when she delivered I know his type. Yeah, really like it was the exact right tone on that I wonder to like like You know just like good old-fashioned Donald Trump said at an event over the weekend that I'm not gonna have that that we're not gonna have to vote anymore Would you want to have the vice president at her next stop?
Be like did you see this here's what Donald Trump said that that this is gonna be the last election He's not gonna have you vote anymore like that's because he's a scaredy or vote like would you be out there kind of like trying to make news cycles out of
The weird new things you can kind of grab the speech. I think they have yes. Yeah, for sure Definitely I think that it's just a broader point like Trump is a celebrity He's larger than life He's still this kind of like New York character from the apprentice in some ways But electing him empowers people like speaker Mike Johnson who sends his son a weekly update on his porn viewing
To prevent masturbation. Yeah, that's a real thing that happens in this world. That's weird It's weird and no one wants that no one wants that person to be empowered in part of this governing coalition J.D. Vance is the like embodiment of project 2025 right the whole project 2025 It's been landing with voters and I talked to Sarah Longwell about this Worldry is over the weekend. It's been coming up organically and and focus groups
And part of it is this conspiratorial nature. We've talked about this now you have J.D. Vance who like everything about him is project 20285 including all of the weird shit and just makes it easier to I think Effectively communicate the stakes of the election and what's gonna happen because you're like Trump whether he cares or not about this shit
J.D. Vance is going to be the vice president and he's going to be sitting there implementing all the crazy project 2025 shit Yeah, it's like it's like the villain from the Da Vinci code wearing a tech vest like Elon mask like you put you put that guy in the tech vests
It's like the worst of kind of like Old like kind of a ravencious traditional Like more is in laws to control people and like the tech fucking bureaucratic technocratic control like put those fucking things together kind of you know pretty gross dude get that guy on this like hydra's couch, you know Hey, yeah, I'm having trouble concentrating because of the couch Because there's a tractive couch Would you win anyway? I'm gonna cushion those remarks Hey, yeah, so so close sofa
Uh, we should pull out of this way. Hey Uh, what about Trump Tommy and how he's like the celebrity well-known everyone knows everything about him And also your your point about pass versus future like I I think they're in mocking Trump a little bit of like Sekka this by the act the act is getting old. Did you see that like the like the Trump act is just getting yes old You see the rally the other day when he was like they made funny man. I hate getting made fun
Yes, oh, yes, he does. He tells us everything and you know what he hates the most about in terms of getting made fun of is A relevance the idea of a relevance or that like he's not cool or that he's yesterday's boring He's boring. He's old knowing it's not like this the the Trump is senile thing that everyone's pushing around on Twitter
I don't think that people buy that as much. It's like the guy. It's just we're so tired of this It's like the same blah blah blah like you said yeah, the same hits the blah blah blah blah The blah blah we're gonna get the shark thing We're gonna get the handle collector thing and we're not like upset about we're just like enough with the drama and the just the endless noise Shays and shays of the same speeches. Yeah. No, it's just it's I keep someone in the someone
Just did you look up synonyms for God? I did yeah, Chachi of course of course um Someone in one of the focus groups who's a swing voter Uh, Trump Biden swing voter. He was like, you know, the problem with Trump is it's just like we know what we're gonna get It's just an rerun for four more years and I'm like yeah, so much use that. That's a good line It is like a rerun. It is like a rerun. So we're getting fucking celebrity apprentice reruns for another four years
We have seen it and it's not new to us. Yeah, that's my that's my thing. All right Speaking of EP picks when we come back from the break you'll hear love its conversation with governor Tim Walls Before we get to that though a pitch from us Look when we when we started doing this show We wanted to be a home for everyone who wanted to be part of a progressive conversation We want you to join in and help us invite more people to do the same if you haven't subscribed to our podcast yet
Now is the time follow us on apple help juice the algorithm to get the pot of more people's ears and if you've got 20 seconds Please share your favorite episode with your friends families undecided voters You've matched with on hinge or anyone else in your life who could be more engaged active and hopeful for democracy When we come back Tim Walls Beyond serving as governor of the great state of Minnesota and chair of the Democratic Governors Association
Our guest today is also rumored to be under consideration to serve as Kamala Harris's vice presidential pick Welcome back to the show governor Tim Walls. Hey, job. Thanks for having me good to be back on Great to have you governor Walls noticed respect here, but a matter of days ago You are basically unknown on the national stage now a good chunk of the internet knows what rinds you went on at the state fair last year We're the fuck if you've been
What doing my job out here? I'm just plugging away and just plugging away and hitting yeah, just doing the work so Vice president gets dangled in front of you suddenly like one of the best messengers in the party We're what where we needed you yeah, I was coaching those football teams plugging away. No, it's uh All right, get some observations look. There's joy all over the place the vice president blew the lid off this thing
And it feels like a spells broken. So I'm excited Yeah, so you said That as part of this new Joy and enthusiasm that your kids who are 17 and 23 told you tic tac was on tic tac I'm 100 years old that tic tac Tic tac is on fire with enthusiasm. Are they your Gen Z whispers? They are they are my my daughter especially She's a good one. I'll have to say she's a she's out in Montana
Social worker, but she's she's in tune to it. I listen to her I get her work ethic the things she cares about and look these guys have been through a lot quite seriously You know when they were kids they went through the great recession their covid babies, you know Missed out on on things there and then they're coming out of this and they're they're seeing you know Trump bring back this horrific message and they're done with it. I think I'm feeling it
This is their first time to really feel a campaign that's enthusiastic. I that's what I see So you know speaking of the seriousness that they've experienced you have talked about changing your views on Gun safety in part because of the urging of your daughter Are you worried and all about the accusation of being in the pocket of big children?
Yes, it's my kids are influencing me. I got the other day. I got asked I'm you know, I'm horrible progressive because our children eat breakfast in lunch in school We just got to embrace the things that That uh That make this country great, but no on seriousness on that one. I'm friends with David hog
He and I've talked about this. I think an evolution on this I grew up and and I know this is you know Small-towener, but I put my shotgun in my you know car at school or in the football locker to go feson hunting afterwards That was a reality, but we weren't getting shot in school. We weren't we didn't have uh, you know ARs in school and so I said it was for me both
A reckoning and an embarrassment. I was one of the people who took the meeting with 23 sets of parents from Sandy Hook in my office And they thanked me for taking the meeting That that's a reckoning and then to just listen their kids would have been my son's age at 17
So I appreciate all the people who've worked on that and we're seeing that move So if there's reasons to be optimistic these kids have seen a lot, but they're they're ready to end it and boy When you see the numbers flipping and how much they engaged in and I don't don't make light of TikTok
You know in terms of really connecting my daughter talks about that a lot you you avoid us at your peril of getting the message out So one one Part of this new enthusiasm has been a kind of collective Realization or moment of attention on the ways in which Republicans are not only a threat
But to use your words kind of weird. Yeah, you actually use that turn back in February when you're on this show about Gubernatorial candidates like Mark Robinson the Harry's campaigns now running with it I feel sometimes there's this challenge right because we've got to make sure people understand that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy Yes, what they're proposing is extreme and dangerous and something to be terrified of at the same time
We want to not allow that to build Trump up into some kind of a strong figure right? Being strong as Deville Clinton families are being strong and wrong is better than being right and weak So how do you how do you how do you think about putting those things together?
No, that that's exactly it. I think on big problems climate change homelessness and things If it becomes just an aspirational goal people don't understand the steps you can make to actually get rid of it And and that becomes then they just kind of fade away and we don't get it done
You have to have touch points and the thing you're talking about is you lift this guy up Yes, he's a threat to global democracy and global peace in my opinion I think your constitutional rights are under threat that becomes almost overwhelming and it's not inspirational
And I think taking them down to what this is this this weird thing is not an insult It's an observation and people saying well governor walls came up with this No people are telling me this my Republican 10 friends are telling me this because when you look at it this way Who's asking for some of this stuff? Who's asking for health care to be taken away? Who's asking for birth control to be taken away?
Who's who's asking I you picture some guys you know they always do the old The guy's sitting in racing was constant in the bar, you know what's really concerning them I damn sure guarantee you it's not banning animal farm They're talking about got it's too damn expensive to pay for child care
Or I'd like to do this so I think the thing is at this spell and you listen to him There's nothing there and it opens up a huge space if you can shrink him Shrink the message and then really start to focus on it because look I say this all the time
Those folks who are at that rally in St. Cloud, they're not going to vote for me But I'm going to make sure they get health care I'm going to make sure the women who were at that rally are going to get access to birth control And there were people there with signs that said Somalis for Trump
We're very proud of our immigrant population we have a large Somali population here But I'll be the guy making sure I'm pushing back on his Muslim ban Or the denigrating words he used against that community I think you get it to where people are listening and I want people to be very clear
I'm not talking about Republicans being weird I'm talking about that dude Just my point on this he's making fun of Kamala Harris laughing I got a bet out there and he'll never he'll never collect on it He will not laugh in public he's incapable of it And that's just strange
It is strange I did not laughing in public thing is so strange I don't I mean what kind of a person never has an authentic moment of laughter And the public eye the guy's been in our faces for 50 years Yes, yes So how do you do?
Yeah picture and you tell me no matter how conservative you are That's somebody you're going to be around I come telling my team I'm you know I'm not I just keep pointing out that why this guy why this guy You come home from work you throw the frisbee to your pup and he gets it
He comes over you give your good boy a belly rub picture that guy doing anything normal Like that no way but no way And I think when people start thinking about this My republic my family who are in this They're concerned about taxes maybe you know what they don't want
They don't want the public schools cuts you can give a tax cut to the to the wealthiest They they there's a there's a conservative mantra that has been taken over And these I'm just going to say it these weird ideas of you know Like JD Vance the only the only people
Uh that can vote and benefit are people with kids And then their kids are going to get a voter whatever and we're going to do all this I was it's ludicrous and I think what's happened is the spell's been broken And now we need to step into it with some positive ideas
So let's talk about that one group of people so so the Trump's campaign manager told The Atlantic's Tim Alberta that they're they're target a group of voters are disaffected young men A majority of whom at least in some polling show an affinity or an openness to Trump
And to Republicans how do you make sense of this shift Amongst young men and what's your pitch To bring these men back into the into the fold look if it weren't so serious Trump is funny If he weren't involved in some of these he's a he's a buffoon and it some of it is like When he's doing his shark thing or whatever I'm laughing But this guy is a danger or whatever and I think when you're a young guy you're you're on the edge
Look, it's a prefrontal lobe stuff. There's some of that. I was that guy man I know the glass house I lived in and you got this guy out here wild break in the rules saying this stuff crazy All this it's attractive or whatever I think what you're seeing now is we don't have to be like that But we can give them something that's why you see tiktok with a younger generation You see uh you know vice president Harris engaging understanding listening Look, I don't understand everything about Gen Z
But I I love them. I guarantee you this dude doesn't and and the Republicans everything they're proposing Is anti against them that this generation cares about their neighbors. They don't give a damn about race They they truly are much more inclusive And they do care about climate change. So I think these young men are looking for something there
It's the Trump spectacle. Here's what I think is really getting him Kamala Harris is becoming a phenomenon And that's what he was and it's and her politics are good and wrapped around that She is starting to gain and you're going to see that it starts to shift and the enthusiasm level amongst that age group Is shifting hard and they are gettable. They are gettable if we bring them back. Look, I I coach these kids in football for years
They want to be part of winners. I'll tell you the fastest way to get one that they don't want to be with losers And and and that's my point with him. You're hanging with the wrong dude So shifting gears in the late 90s you were teaching and coaching at Mankato You volunteered to be the gay straight alliance's first faculty advisor as governor You signed an executive order protecting the right to gender-forming care for trans kids and you signed to bill out long book bans
My question is for being such a friend to the queer community. Why don't you dress better?
It is true You got to have the ally that looks like this dude the old white dude But I'm proud of that work because I look I was the football coach It was thing you know I'm proud of I'm proud of the students there who understood that I'm proud that we were starting to get past this issue and a lot of it was just You know just it's ignorance a lot of times and we got through that and so uh yeah I got to do better on this but I you know I'm trying I
No, I think it look I noticed this over the weekend. There are people seeing you with you in your Give it a press conference and it's not clear whether you were this is not my joke Whether you're gonna run for vice president or maybe fix a radiator. Uh listen
Uh, but but but in all seriousness. I do think that you know we talked about young man It does seem like attacking trans people Making this a debate about masculinity is a a kind of way to kind of peel off Some of these young men that's why they kind of target trans people scapegoat trans people try to make this something about Being against men
What do you think about that? Yeah, that's that toxic masculinity. There's something about embracing this about doing good Look, I'm proud I played football, but I also help do the set at the plays You there's there's being a well-rounded person in understanding you can do these things It's about being part of your community and the thing is they they try and do that
This is the thing john too. They're all the tough guys the toxic masculinity We used to have a trap shooting congress You know we'd go out and we would shoot 25 sporting clay 25 ski, you know 25 trap or whatever Clip top gun I can shoot these guys so I'd ride back on the bus How does it feel to get out shot every year by a liberal gun grabber most of these guys never been around guns It's just like a persona. It's like they pick up that look you know, and I've been talking about JD vans
Whatever that's not my small town. That's not where I was from That's not how we talk and I think part of it is is letting them know it's okay. You're right about Round cars. I'm proud that I can do some things around a car fix it or whatever, but there's a whole wonderful You know rainbow of things that people can do but I do think you're right that it's targeting They turn scapegoats into punch lines, you know, they make people scapegoats
We need to embrace and that's what we've done and it's okay But that toxic masculinity is a scary thing So let's say you're on a debate stage with say JD vans and he accuses you of being a big government liberal Who's attacking our families making life worse for our families Doesn't share our values doesn't care about
Families like yours. What do you say to him? Yeah, first of all it was up to him I wouldn't have a family because of IVF and the things that we need to do reproduct My kids were born through that direct, you know that way And also I make sure that I'm the guys and our folks are investing in prenatal care We're the ones that are there for universal pre-K where the ones that are providing school meals at this I'm not gonna back down one bit on this whole family values thing and it's us
That that construct that he's putting out there is absolutely untrue We're making it more affordable to have children by having paid family and medical leave so that you can go home when your kids are sick and take care of them Or if you're a dad, I don't have to go right back to work five days later after my wife had a C section because our insurance Went pay for it. We're boosting those things up. There's nothing pro family other than having women be incubators for their vision of this and
I don't know once again. It's weird. I don't want JD vans talking about my family I certainly don't want him talking about my my daughter or my wife It's none of his damn business But I said the one thing is we need to talk about how we've invested in families
We have the most generous child tax credit and it's what vice president Harris is proposing for the country that People are poor because they don't have money and when kids don't have the money on the front end All of the things that a chain reaction of can't learn can't go on
So I'll challenge you on that. Where is JD vans is pro family's forcing people to have You know not be able to have medical care if they have a bad pregnancy or something We need to we need to stand in front of that and again You don't need me to give a sermon, but try and live one try and be decent try and help your neighbors try and invest in those kids Before we go, I do want to talk to you about something that is quite depraved that you're not only involved in
Uh, but a huge proponent of and that's the Minnesota stay fair Now I'm actually I'm actually coming to the stay fair this year Uh, I am actually dating a minnesotan and I wanted to ask you first of all Is there any kind of dispensation or government provided lactate that can be provided very stations Just for the safety of the people involved and The amount of dairy and the rides you're putting in such close proximity to each other what about safety?
What about public health? Well, I'll go over and be there. Uh, you can get chocolate or regular One dollar one dollar all you can drink so you got to picture this you're out there. It's 90 degrees You can have unlimited amount of milk and then you go doing a sling shot. It is it's a right a passage But I think it's a it's a good one now one hard question here um I want to ask you about
Four different food options and one's got to go one is no longer going to be available all right here. You're four choices fried cheese curds Maybe we have a photo for you the corn on the cob. That's that's famous a Bucket of sweet Martha's cookies served by the bucket and a pronto pup Uh, which seems to me some sort of a malgamation of corn dogs pancakes um No difference different. I'm I'm teen corn dog cost me lots of votes, but I'm clearly clean
A corn dog you you bailed me out on that one. I did some throw in the pronto pup and sticking the other Wow wow and and now my understanding is the bucket of cookies It can't be closed until you've eaten but several families worth of cookies. Yeah, it can't and this is when there was a simpler time in
2018 I bought my bucket and the Republicans. I'll give them this old school Republicans smart They're booth was right next to the sweet Martha's booth smart and I bought one of these and I walked through the booth and 9 out of 10 people took them you know like from him when guys I'm not taking anything from you and I'm like Oh, that's fine and the lady next to me says well, I'm not voting for him and I'm taking the cookie sweet Martha's is the ultimate
It is the ultimate bipartisan entry point. So yeah, I can't you get about a dozen before you get to the bucket That's sick You people are sick too. We walk it. We walk on water half the year. We have to do something so Governor Tim Wallace. Thank you so much for your time really great to talk to you. Thanks John see it stay fair. Yes, he had the fair That's our show for today. Love it and Stacey Abrams will be back with a new show on Wednesday afternoon. Wow
Really we're we're going big for our guest host these days. Yeah, I'm pretty excited. All right everyone. We'll see you then If you want to get ad free episodes exclusive content and more consider joining our friends at the pod subscription community at cricket.com slash friends
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