“Get These Incels to Work” (feat. Hasan Piker)

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett and guest hosting with me today is the massively popular streamer leftist dumbass himself. You just self-described. That's okay. Sure. Fair. I say himbo, but damn. Okay. Hasan Piker. Welcome back. It's good to be back. Thank you for having me. After my conversation with Hassan, you'll hear my conversation with Seth Moulton. We talked about the Democratic Party. We talked about the controversy over his comments around trans athletes.

Also on the feed right now, you can hear Dan's conversation with Jen O'Malley, Dylan, Quentin Fulks, David Plouffe and Stephanie Cutter about what went wrong in the Harris campaign. We're having a bunch of different conversations about. what we learned from the election, where we go from here with a bunch of different voices, one of which is here today. So people are mad that we talked to the Harris campaign. People are mad we're talking to you. People are mad and that's okay.

But let's start with this. It's a big tent. It's a big tent. It's a big tent. It's got Dick Cheney in it. It's got Dick Cheney in it. It's got Hasan Piker in it. Yeah. It's got Dan Osborne in it. It's got Seth Moulton in it. Yeah. yeah you know tent shouldn't maybe uh feature dick cheney in it but you know everybody else we can i can have a conversation with great great

All right. Now, look, the main pastime on the left, other than being mad for the last few weeks, is everyone saying how right they were all along about Democrats being out of touch and bound to lose. Arrest me. Sorry. So we had a, I sat at this chair. Well, maybe not at this chair, but I had the offline interview with John, I think a month before.

the uh the election and a lot of the things a lot of the concerns that i brought up to him it seemingly came across as uh somewhat prescient where people people went back to the uh to the footage and i've been seeing comments that were rather positive about like you know okay he said a lot of stuff there that was uh objectively correct seeming yeah let's i want to talk about one aspect of that which is that you were saying others were saying that hey like

Trump going on Rogan, Trump going on Theovan, like something is happening here and we need to understand it. We need to address it. It's it's real. And I remember like my experience. It's like seared in my mind of Trump being on Joe Rogan because of how like my path of understanding it, because what I saw first.

were a bunch of people taking clips and saying, wow, Rogan really didn't like Trump. Trump is a mess on this show. He comes across terribly. Rogan was like giving Trump space to hang himself. Rhetorically and then I watch it and like Trump did fucking great in this interview. Yeah, he's very telegenic That's the thing that like a lot of people I guess refuse to factor in for some weird reason is that

Yeah, he definitely rambles on. He likes to call it the weave. And even Joe Rogan made fun of him for that a little bit in the process. But like there is something. to be said about a relatively telegenic person who is able to portray himself as I like to call it honestly dishonest, where everybody knows he's a bit of a scumbag, but he's your scumbag. And he's able to get that across to a lot of people. And I don't think that there is really...

Anyone with that level of television presence on the Democratic Party front, I think like the most skilled order in the Democratic Party's ranks in the last. uh, you know, last couple of decades was obviously Barack Obama and, uh, And outside of that, I think like in a lot of instances, purely from an optics point of view, Democrats track is like technocratic, elitist, too serious about everything that they talk about. And there's certainly a lot of that on the Republican Party.

side as well. And we've seen failed initiatives from establishment Republicans that tried to recreate the Trump phenomenon with the likes of Ron DeSantis. And that was a massive failure. But

Ultimately, I think this goes beyond podcasts. This is something that I've been talking about quite frequently. I know the podcast thing is like the most... Yeah, yeah. Like that's the one that got everyone's attention, but... i i said this on cnn uh last night that uh you can't really podcast your way out of this problem like having you know

There was that one tweet saying like, oh, we just have a hundred pot save Americas, but they all have to look like Hassan. Like, that's not, that's not how this works. Oh, you think that one tweet might have been wrong? But the, yeah, like, I guess. So I agree with that. You know, it became this couple kind of like, I don't know, like just have had this devastating loss to Trump and everybody's looking for these sort of little explanations that all feel.

They just feel silly. Like, oh, we need a Joe Rogan of the left. And even saying, like, I don't even want to talk about how stupid that is anymore because even that has become stupid. But I do agree that people are like, oh, well, she should have gone on Rogan. All right. Yeah, sure.

I think so, too. That would not have changed the outcome of this election. There's a larger problem to what you're getting at, which is, like, why don't we have figures and where, like, we think they would do great on that show? And why is someone like Joe Rogan now, who was...

Four years ago, open to Bernie now suddenly open to Trump. Like, that's the deeper problem. Like you look at like successful Democratic messengers or progressive messengers over the last like decades. And you think, all right, well. Bill Clinton obviously was successful and he like ran against.

the Democratic Party in some way. Barack Obama did the same thing. Bernie does the same thing. AOC does the same thing. Not on, I'm not talking about on policy. You don't mean it like also in the same direction of running against. No, no, no. But running against the establishment in some way. And just saying. And the reason I connect them is because they all did something which is demonstrated that they were not part of the Democratic establishment, both.

like on policy and rhetorically right like that's what they all did and i'm just wondering like what there's a place where there's like kind of an alignment of like the seth moulton critique of the Democratic Party and the lefty critique of the Democratic Party, which is just like it's fucking annoying and like kind of I don't know, like pedantic in some way. Here's the thing.

I think it's an incorrect interpretation, an incorrect autopsy to look back at a thing that the Democratic Party did not do at all and then say it's actually that reason. It's not anything that we did so far. It's not that we tacked to the right. over and over again, despite people like myself and many others saying like, don't do this, you're going to hemorrhage the base, you're going to hemorrhage the base of support, you are going to...

cut away at your turnout. You're going to cut across many different constituencies that you rely on to create an effective coalition. And it's it's a very dangerous gamble to assume that you can decouple a lot of these people in the suburbs, a lot of like white women specifically away from the Republican Party and vote for you instead.

I know that they're high propensity voters, but it doesn't matter. There's still plenty of low propensity voters that you have to rely on to win. And that's precisely what the Democratic Party did. They hyper focused on these key constituencies, despite the fact that. Polls were seemingly deadlocked after $30 million of ad spend in key suburbs, right? Like it showed, at least I said this time and time again, it showed someone from the outside looking in.

that the message was not working and you can have the best ground game possible you can have you know hundreds of thousands of people all across the country door knocking. But if the top-down message that you're communicating is not resonating with people, then you're not going to be able to win an election. You're not going to have the effective turnout necessary to win this election. That is precisely what happened. Now, does that mean that Trump's messaging was good? Of course not.

It wasn't. It was actually pretty bad. And I would even go so far as to say the anti-trans ads were actually a distraction and not good. It was only effective in the DC bubble, I think, and the consultant bubble and the media class that saw those ads and were like, oh my God, this is an incredible ad.

They really ruined Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris had a silly answer to a ACLU questionnaire. OK, that just shows that she is not the most experienced politician. This was all the way back in, I believe, 2020. Right. She literally had to drop out of the primary anyway.

At that time, that's one thing. Okay. But that should not be a campaign killer. If you personally think that that's a campaign killer, then your campaign is weak. This message across the board should never be able to end a single campaign. then Teflon Don is real.

I mean, the man had the grab him by the pussy tape come out as the October surprise in 2016, and he still won. And since then, there's been a litany of different controversies, including but not limited to straight up undermining American democracy by doing January 6th. And yet... people are still voting for him and one must ask the question why and i think

Overall, the same exact problems that persisted in 2016 when the economy was seemingly very good, right? Especially as opposed to like the post-COVID economy and its recovery. People were still very frustrated with what was going on. The notion that in the wealthiest nation on earth, we have 600,000 people sleeping outside every night. The idea that, you know, we have a...

The concept of medical bankruptcy is an insane phenomenon that doesn't exist in any other OECD nation. The fact that 60% of the American public doesn't have $400 in emergency spending, these are all very real. economic anxieties i'm using that term specifically because you know it's a it's one thing that people like to hyper focus on that that creates volatility that creates instability and

It creates a base of angry people. And if the Democratic Party is not addressing that anger and addressing their material problems and earnestly telling them, like, we're going to fix that shit. And the other side is looking at that anger and saying, we're going to channel your anger. You have every right to be angry. And you know who you should be angry at? Those who have less than you, you know, you should be angry at the working poor, the homeless people that are doing crimes left and right.

Black and brown people, undocumented migrants that are doing incredible amounts of crimes. They're killing hundreds of thousands of Americans and trans people. And the Democratic Party only cares about those people and they don't care about you. And that message resonates with a base of support, not because they are intrinsically evil. That message resonates with a base of support because they're angry.

And one of the two major parties is not even remotely interested in addressing that anger and trying to tell them what the solution to that anger actually is and what the real problem is. So. I want to like break that into kind of how we like the Democratic brand, how we message and all. But then but also like on the policy front. So Joe Biden wins. He.

tries to kind of build consensus with Bernie. He brings in AOC. He goes to the left on antitrust. He does the Inflation Reduction Act. He does a... post-COVID relief bill he cancels as much debt as he can legally even though the court is trying to stop him like I in before the last year like what my view of this was is joe biden this consensus democrat right actually to the right of the consensus for most of his career kind of somebody that had to be kind of pulled to where the party was going

did something extraordinary, which is he adapted. He changed. He governed in a much more progressive way than I think probably like I certainly than I expected. I hope that you expected. Oh, absolutely. And. Whether it's because people didn't feel it or people didn't believe it or the way Democrats talk about policy isn't effective, like it didn't seem to matter in terms of how people viewed.

Like the Democratic response to the economy, right? They were so angry about inflation. They were angry about a bunch of other issues. And it really didn't matter what Joe Biden said or what Kamala Harris said. They were held responsible. And I'm just wondering what how you explain that, right? Like. It seems as though Joe Biden tried to listen to this exact critique and it didn't matter. So, yes and no. I do agree. There are plenty of things that Joe Biden did, like beefing up the NLRB.

And letting the FTC rain hell upon these monopolies. There's two issues there, though. One is, I think, something that you will agree with as well, that the Democrats don't campaign year round in the same way that Republicans do on key issues. And they do have a massive communication problem. That could potentially be solved by having a more robust ecosystem and more collaboration with even the likes of yourself and maybe even someone like myself as well. And they need to always be on.

They need to always be counter messaging against the anti-immigration sentiment. I went back and looked at my commentary from February of 2021. When the story of the Customs and Border Patrol Haitian migrants getting whipped by horseback Customs and Border Patrol officers was in the news. And I remember talking about how the Republicans are going to keep hitting.

The immigrants are doing crime note over and over again because that's the one thing that they have. And it's built around a complete falsehood that undocumented migrants are responsible for. incredible amounts of crime. It's not correct. There is no data to suggest this. The data actually shows the exact opposite. Undocumented migrants are your neighbors. They contribute to the economy in very meaningful ways, and they very rarely take anything in return. Why is the Democratic Party not?

pushing this counter narrative. And they never did. Instead of pushing that counter narrative, which is based in truth, and talk about how undocumented migrants are responsible for less crime per capita than... natural-born U.S. citizens are, or that fentanyl being trafficked across the U.S. borders are actually not coming in the knapsack of an otherwise law-abiding abuela, but instead it's coming from regular points of entry.

trafficked by American citizens, 90% of the people that are being apprehended for chemical compounds necessary for fentanyl or direct... drugs that they're trafficking across the border are American citizens. This does not track with the narrative that people believe because the narrative is dominated by the right on this issue.

They should have been counter messaging against that. And they should have been putting bills forward in defense of the moves that, for example, Governor Greg Abbott was engaging in Ron DeSantis. I said this even back then. that this is actually a fantastic opportunity for the federal government to show that there is a more tolerant approach, that one, they should have immediately pursued Governor Greg Abbott legally.

and and arrested him for human trafficking and tried to prosecute him for human trafficking i don't care if it's a constitutional crisis or not all of this stuff was insanely messed up, and the federal government dropped the ball. I think the Biden administration dropped the ball by not adding additional funds immediately, sending additional funds immediately to places like Chicago and New York, and to figure out a better way to transition a lot of these people and integrate.

them into the american labor force and instead they just got stuck in this like legal limbo for no reason so yeah i mean look why is it that okay so republicans say uh they sort of lay all these problems at the feet of undocumented immigrants. They say they're responsible for crime. No, they're not. But there are obviously undocumented people.

their people and some are committing terrible crimes, which they then exploit. But for the most part, these are people that not only are committing crimes at a lower rate, but actually are unable to go to the police when they're victims of crime, whether that's a. that's a domestic violence, they can't go to the police, or whether that's just the quotidian mayhem of living in America, or...

a boss taking advantage of you they can't go to the police right yeah then they say oh well they don't pay taxes actually that's not true they pay into medicare they pay into social security and they don't get they don't get the benefits of it back and then they say well they're they're they're uh driving up the cost of housing

Do not believe that undocumented people are the reason a house costs $450,000 where it used to cost $350,000. Yeah, I didn't realize there were executives at BlackRock. The Guatemala migrants are mass purchasing houses and making sure that everyone's a permanent renter.

That's the point, though. It's not a trans person that's your landlord. It's not an undocumented immigrant that's your landlord that's raising the cost of rent. Your manager is not an undocumented immigrant. There are two big problems, though. One is, there are a lot of people saying this.

And it doesn't break through because there is this right wing media system that puts out this one story. And the second problem is Democrats really don't have trust on this issue with the people that they're trying to persuade.

to see it our way which i think goes to the the point you made before right which is why is it that donald trump can meander around the country rambling uh committing what in any other era would be if not like campaign ending like camp uh campaign harming uh uh ridiculous statements gaff sure that he can basically be in like a strategic mess. But Kamala Harris has to hit every point exactly right.

She says the wrong thing on The View or there's a bad interview from 2020. Those things can be campaign ending. And I think to your point, it goes to something deeper, a kind of a lack of like kind of, I don't know, core vision or or.

or motivating mission for the current Democratic Party. Yeah. Something that is an understandable, easy to communicate, simple policy that you can put your campaign around. So. So we agree on the messaging front a little bit, at least, or the asymmetry of how much right-wing media dominates the ecosystem, the media ecosystem in general, all the way from independent outlets.

down to traditional media, where as far as I understand it, 73% now, I think, of all news watchers are watching Fox News. 73%. That's an insane percentage. That's an insane number, right? So outside of that, though... I think here is the disagreement that we will have. That while Joe Biden did a bunch of stuff that I agree was positive, it was simply not enough. And that was something that I was always very critical on as well.

If you see a homeless person and you chuck them two pennies and they're sitting on the corner of the street, like, yeah, technically, their material wealth improved by a percentage, a decent percentage. But he's still going to be mad at you because you just gave him two pennies. Why doesn't the homeless person understand that their situation is much better? That is not an effective way to communicate to Americans that like, no, you don't understand.

inflation is actually under control that the economy is rebounding even if it's objective truth because they like most americans don't understand what inflation is and they don't understand that prices are not going to go down in that circumstance. And besides that, and in fact, this is not just the vibe session.

communications. But I'm also talking about specifically, like even the IRA or many of these other parts of the legislative agenda that Biden... put forth that was more progressive than i expected from more progressive than even the obama administration in many respects but one they didn't

do a good job of communicating any of those victories, in my opinion. They did not actually go to the media regularly to show these victories and to showboat and gloat a little bit. Two, a lot of that was also held up in gridlock because we didn't... whip votes well enough within within our own party. And I think that there was a lot of punishments that should have been dished out to the likes of Joe Manchin and the likes of Kyrsten Sinema rather than offering a green senator.

an opportunity to be a prominent fixture of the Democratic Party. I think that a lot more punishments should have been issued towards these people that use the moment in the spotlight to specifically play the role of a rotating villain in the democratic party which has happened time and time again all the way from joe lieberman to the maggie hasans of the world the kirsten cinemas the joe mansions of the world and the the problem solvers caucuses uh within the

within Congress in general, these guys need to get whipped into shape. Yeah, I just, like, I wish I believed that. I just wish I believed that. No, but think about it. But I just, like, I don't know how much more you could have gotten out of... Joe Manchin or or Kyrsten Sinema like Joe Manchin basically was telegraphing the whole time like like I'll walk away and Joe Biden kept him in the tent that got judges through that got the Inflation Reduction Act through like I just

I do not believe, like, I think we agree on a lot. Like, I just don't believe that there is a version of the Joe Biden presidency that could have been more successful on legislative policy. I just, I don't see that. You're not going to appreciate what I'm about to say then. Hit me. Use the IRS and also the SEC and maybe even the FTC to...

Investigate as to why Joe Manchin's brother owns a coal mine and whether there's a conflict of interest there. Investigate why Joe Manchin's daughter is selling pharmaceutical products to the state of West Virginia when Joe Manchin is directly at office. with any sort of bill that would lower the cost of pharmaceuticals. So you want the president to politicize these agencies and use them to go after people? Because you want to know why? Tell me why.

And tell me why. Because they're doing it at the behest of of not only the American people, their interests, but they're also and this is probably going to frustrate everyone in this audience. But here's the thing that I get very frustrated about. We have a wide range of listeners across a broad ideological spectrum. Here's what really frustrates me. What frustrates you? About the way the Democratic Party operates.

They love norms. They love institutions. They love civility. They care about bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship. There's no doubt. Some do, some don't. Yeah, sure. But for the most part, the broad communication coming out of the Democratic Party is that these are the things that they care about. These are the top line issues. We're going to protect democracy. We're going to preserve our institutions. The problem is.

The other side doesn't give a shit about that. So I think I want a Democratic Party that fights for me and others who are marginalized, other people that like desperately need help. And I know that the Republican Party is never going to do that. I'm not one of those guys.

like oh well you know at least i at least the republicans are kind of listening to what i have to say or or are uh you know uh communicating channeling the anger that i feel like i don't care they're they're charlatans they're significantly worse than the democratic party i don't like the democratic party for their closeness to the republican party i want them to be a a party that actually

for the working class, for all Americans unconditionally, regardless of ideology. And you can't do that through bipartisanship with an otherwise like hostile entity. that is the Republican Party. And I think there is a lot of hypocrisy there and hypocrisy that people can see.

Hypocrisy is the easiest thing that they can understand. You can't say that these guys are fascists. These guys are racist for eight years for wanting to build a wall and then turn around and straight up tell Anderson Cooper in that town hall, well, maybe the wall is a good idea and I want to build it myself.

I'm going to be the border czar. I'm going to be the border party. You can't do that. Americans look at that and go, so you're admitting that you were just lying for the past eight years. Well, it's like, again, though, it's like. I think actually you look at somebody like Dan Osborne, right, who ran so far ahead of the Democratic Party, ran as this economic populist. But one of the things he had to do to get there was kind of be tough on immigration and actually like.

I think part of it goes back to like, if people felt like they knew in their bones, like Bernie Sanders being to me like the signal example, like, you know what Bernie's about.

you know what he's for you know what motivates him you know what he cares about same thing for trump you know like you know when there are issues he doesn't give a about and there's issues he really really cares about immigration is one he trade right like you know the things that like don't that have been anti-crime whatever uh that there are things that have been in donald trump's like kind of

brain slowly losing plasticity that are like kind of solid in there. And for Bernie, you know, like we know why he's in politics and that gives a politician the space to kind of challenge. orthodoxies in the party or kind of run counter to it to signal to the people you need to signal to now like you know you say oh you can't you can't call them fascist and then also work with them like yeah

Yeah, but at the same time, Joe, again, like it's like, I just don't know what to do with this nuance. Joe Biden, like I am glad Joe Biden did the Inflation Reduction Act and an infrastructure bill and a gun bill.

and the CHIPS Act and a bunch of other stuff. I'm glad he was able to do all of those things. I'm glad that he was able to use his kind of like moderate brand whatever to kind of bring people in and get some stuff done like i don't think the country is better off if he didn't do those things so like you describe it as hypocrisy like it's compromised like it politics requires compromise

the the republican party rarely ever compromises they're uncompromising you only have to beat them but that's not true though like i i agree with i agree with that on trump but that's just not true like the re they did compromise right they like these are

There are plenty of people on the Republican side that were furious at Republican senators for going along with some of these Biden bills, right? Like, those are people that did compromise. Yeah, there is a million examples, however, of Republicans that are obstructionist that I'm sure you also love. presenting that go back to their town halls and lie about all the money that they brought back home absolutely the bills that they voted against so ultimately we now know that

Political polarization is set in a way that never really existed in American history until the last couple of decades. Right. I think that parties originally were more. geopolitically focused on their immediate needs like statewide needs so you saw you saw this dramatic shift and now the republican party especially with mitch mcconnell under the obama administration uh showcase that like permanent obstructionism is not punishable and that gridlock is always considered

the administrative party's problem. If there's any sort of gridlock, it's the fault of the leadership. And Americans hate gridlock. That's kind of the reason why I was talking about Kirsten Sinema and Joe Manchin because there was a massive, massive moment where like...

They actually ended up protecting the Republican Party because they were never going to vote for these bills anyway. And now the entire conversation was about like, you know, madness within the Democratic Party's caucuses. Like, oh, they can't get their ducks in a row. Right. Like that was.

genuinely frustrating to me because it's like if you don't if you'd whip your votes immediately then you could showcase that the republican party is standing in the way of progress but that's just like that is legislative minutiae what is more important to talk about is broad sweeping legislative changes or a agenda that might even come across as bold and radical in the interest of the American working class. Joe Biden.

Said he wanted to do the public option. Everybody knew that wasn't real. He never talked about it after. He just used the public option. He slotted that in in the primaries when the party was primed to the Bernie left and everyone was like, you know, trying to. communicate their own populist version of what Bernie was doing. And, you know, Joe Biden won the primaries and effectively... table the the discussion about health care this is still a major problem regardless like yes

negotiating pharmaceutical prices and ensuring that insulin prices are capped to $35, which is now going to be looking like a Trump victory when he's in office. It doesn't matter. It's still good for the American people. So that's great. But like, that is good.

But that's not enough. And I think that... I think that when you don't do that, when you have this very technocratic, third way neoliberal approach, but you sprinkle in a little bit of like anti-corporate, anti-billionaire populism that Joe Biden certainly did. You're a rudderless ship. You're not communicating effectively like what you are about. And when you don't have a North Star that every single person can point to and say, this is what the party is about. Your enemies.

can portray you as whatever they want. And that's why the trans anti-trans ads are even remotely effective because you can make the Democratic Party look clownish and inconsistent and even silly and hyper.

focused on whatever key issues there are because one they rarely ever focus on universality and programs everything has to be means tested which i think is is both on the policy front and on the politics front garbage focus on universal programs because that way uh you can cut across every single group and you can disproportionately target

uh uh marginalized populations black uh populations brown populations and trans people these like these people do not exist in a vacuum they're not magical mystical beings that uh are are not uh are not experiencing the shocks of the market or they still have to pay rent they still need workplace protections they still need the cost of medicine to go down right so

Universal programs capture the attention of all Americans, including this majority white, angry population that is finding themselves in the throes of the Republican reactionary movement. So they need to do that. And if they don't do that, then the subtle populism of the right is always going to be the only game in town. And they're going to be able to present themselves as anti-establishment while they have...

billionaires parading around all of the campaign stops like Elon Musk trying to do that X logo every time he jumps like a child. I hate Elon Musk. That is the trick though, man. They're like... So if you listen to the Harris campaign's advisors talking to Dan Pfeiffer, I know you did and you had your problems with it. But one place where they agreed is that like, hey, like.

everyone's saying, oh, this trans ad, oh, this trans ad. Like it actually might not have been their most effective ad. And they were trying to, and what Quentin Falk said was that like, they were actually really trying to target it to get at black men. And it looks like maybe that didn't. work, right? We'll see. We're going to get more data, but the point that the ad makes is just that like...

Democrats are weird. Democrats are strange. Yeah, right and like they use trans people as a cudgel yeah to do that but like to the larger point you have billionaires just the wealthy literally the wealthiest man in the world the top seven the top seven donors uh this election cycle all donated to the republican party

And they were donating like 100 million, 200 million dollars. Like it was crazy. How do you think about the fact that in right wing media right now and like right wing adjacent media, they are managing to be both. the party of the wealthiest oligarchs in the world and the kind of traditional moral set trying to impose a specific way of living on people and anti-establishment.

kind of rebellious politics. It's Nazi Germany. Straight up. It's just pure fascism. That's all this is. It worked. It worked 100 years ago. And it's seemingly working right now. And it's not just the United States of America. It's all across Western Europe. The only country that bucked the trend of the incumbency disadvantage seemingly was Mexico.

one must ask the question why an old doddering man uh who was still you know relatively telegenic even though he believed in wood elves duendes was able to get a tremendous amount of popularity and then become the transition candidate that actually passed the torch to a younger woman, Claudia Scheinbaum. I'm of course talking about Mexico. I'm talking about AMLO.

is the old man, Claudius Scheinbaum, was his spiritual and ideological successor in the Morena Party. Why did that happen? Why was AMLO so popular? And why is Claudia Scheinbaum also incredibly popular? Why did Claudia Scheinbaum win the election with even larger margins of victory than AMLO did?

It's because they expanded the welfare state, they increased minimum wage, and they made a whole bunch of decisions that genuinely improved the material conditions of a lot of people in Mexico. And that's...

Something that people will never forget. We talked about the black vote for a second. As far as voter patterns goes, older black... populations like older black voters as a voting bloc is a more reliable voting bloc for the democratic party than younger black voters are one must ask the question why that is because people remember The last time the Democratic Party did something for black people.

did something bold, expended social and political capital for black people. And that is something that people do not forget. If you give people things, they will not forget that. That's why there was a lot of dummies who thought, oh, Trump's back. We're going to get some stimmy checks. It's not going to happen.

But they still remember that because they think, oh, yeah, Trump gave us stimmy checks. I mean, well, Joe Biden expanded. I mean, like, I know. And by the way, I'm not pushing back on any of this because I don't agree with the sentiment. I just like. I am trying in the weeks of this election to just like just like question these these sort of statements because then it's like, well, well, Joe Biden expanded the child tax credit, made a huge difference for millions of children.

no absolutely the expansion of the child tax credit was fantastic but it didn't continue it was so successful and it didn't continue like

Do you think American people know why that happened? I don't. Who's at fault if American people don't know why that happened? Well, that's a... i think some of it is democrats some of it is the mainstream media some of it is the right-wing media and some of it by the way is the left it is the media of the left right like i like the first couple years there were there's been so many moments

Where by great frustration, I think in the way politics is talked about is often people do not want to to do the work of figuring out who's actually responsible. Right. Like Republicans will shut down. the government and mainstream sources will say Washington gridlock continues, right? Or Joe Biden will be stymied in some way or Barack Obama will be stymied. Why didn't Barack Obama do this? Why didn't Barack Obama do that when he had a majority?

Right. Well, because it's actually, you know what, in the Senate having 49 votes to get rid of the filibuster and having 50 votes to get rid of the filibuster is a difference between doing a ton of shit and not being able to do. Anything. That's not the fault of 49 people. That's the result of one person. Can I bring up something really quick? This conversation that you and I are having, have you ever heard a Republican have this conversation? Well...

What do you mean? Have you ever heard a Republican go, sorry, we couldn't get this done because we simply did not have the votes? Is that ever like a real... significant, front-facing public conversation that the Republicans have. I feel like you want the answer to be no, but I do think the answer is yes. I can't recall the time. No, I'm asking you. I think on their side, they have over the last decade.

slowly but surely gotten rid of the people who are pointing out the actual uh uh uh things that stand in their way right like they went after kevin mccarthy they went out well yeah like and sometimes that works sometimes that leaves them

like pretty well stuck. I mean, like Donald Trump was president for four years. He wanted to repeal the Affordable Care Act. He didn't have the votes. Right. There was a big conversation about why he didn't have the votes that like there have been like Republican, the Republican base. furious with spending bills that were passed, right? What did Donald Trump do after when John McCain struck down the Affordable Care Act? What did he do? He took out the individual mandate regardless.

He did. Well, he did what the same thing a Democratic president would do. Do as much as you can legislatively. And when it fails, use your executive power, which is what Biden has done on student loans and a bunch of other issues. Yeah. So my point is. He still got the most significant aspect of his, you know, agenda across. And in the process, he utilized the bully pulpit to laser John McCain nonstop.

And effectively bully John McCain in a way that I've never seen a Democratic president turn around and communicate. about Joe Biden. I'll hear it about the left, about how they're naysayers, how they're spoilers. I never hear it about conservative Democrats. And I think It's the coalition that you want to have, is my point. And I think Democrats, win or lose, want to win by their own.

like established policies and the way that they want to win. And they're willing to lose if necessary, as long as they still maintain the overarching attitude that they have. i just think that is or maybe they're just bad and wrong well i just think they're like i think people need to be persuaded i think people need to be persuaded like david plough talking to to pfeiffer yesterday he's like look you go to a swing state you got a certain percentage of liberals

uh progressives you have a certain percentage of conservatives and you got this vast swath of moderates you need them you need them now i think where you're right is like there is something about a democratic establishment establishment figures that feel more comfortable with a Liz Cheney sitting at the table than with a leftist sitting at the table. It's gross. And that the disagreements with Liz Cheney are more kind of...

acceptable and the disagreements to the left are less acceptable. But one must ask the question, why is that acceptable? Liz Cheney is anti-LGBT. Liz Cheney is anti-abortion. Liz Cheney is anti-democratic party. Liz Cheney is the daughter of a... A rabid, warmongering, terrorist sociopath, Dick Cheney. And yet there are Democrats who are more comfortable with her than people who also would totally be on board with the Democratic Party.

I don't know, have maybe sometimes identical opinions of Liz Cheney on even LGBT issues. Like Joe Rogan is a great example of this. Yeah. The Democratic Party. has consistently utilized and weaponized, in the most cynical ways possible, identity politics. And I say this as someone who is infinitely more progressive than the average Democrat on these issues.

They just use it. They use it against Bernie. They use it against every single person. And now they're dropping it themselves. That makes... every democrat look like a silly fool that makes it does in the eyes of americans they go you called us racist you called us transphobic you called us crazy and now you're saying okay my bad we got to drop this woke shit

Like, of course, people are going to go, all right, I guess like I'm primed into now believing the Republicans like you're pushing your base towards being more open minded to right wing policy is the only thing you're doing. And that's how.

And that's the only thing you're doing when you don't actually claw back a lot of the... things that the republicans the former republican administration engages in like democrats are very good at you know trying to fix the deficit they're the only real deficit hawks right uh republicans certainly don't care they only use it as a uh is a weapon to wield to communicate against the uh democratic agenda but but outside of that like

on foreign policy joe biden said he was going to be an effective foreign policy leader uh he did nato he kept talking about you know nato jack AUKUS as though that was going to be he loved talking about yeah like i've never been more i've never been more like nervous

in politics like other than the day before an election than when joe biden was still in the race and he did that press conference oh yeah and he was like he talked about AUKUS it's like no one knows what the fuck AUKUS is yeah five eyes AUKUS that's a deep cut that is a deep cut but like Joe Biden was like, I am I'm the adult in the room, Jack. I'm going to bring back America into the global stage. The way that the American public sees that is like.

There's a war in Ukraine. Right. And that's not even Joe Biden's fault. Like, I understand that. That's Vladimir Putin decided I'm going to do the insane thing. I'm going to invade Ukraine. That's psychotic. Right. But the way that people see it, they're like, why are we giving money to Ukraine?

When we're not fixing the potholes. Why are we giving money to Ukraine when the ISP suck here? What the hell's going on? Why are we giving money to Ukraine when we don't have healthcare? We have homeless people everywhere. And then on top of that, they see that instability as like something that is Joe Biden's fault.

Fair or unfair, doesn't matter. They attribute it to Joe Biden. Same thing with Israel-Palestine. They look to what is going on and they're like, this is insane. Biden will come out and say, or used to come out and say, uh you know we're gonna do a two-state solution benjamin and now the next day we'll be like the two state what do you mean how about no state literally the next day and

And Biden kept trying to do this thing where he was like finger wagging, where he's like, oh, I'm really, I'm going to give him a heart to heart, you know, real man to man. For a lot of Americans, they saw that as like. You're weak. You're old. You're weak. You're feeble. And you're getting dog walked by an American ally in a very public and very embarrassing way. And there's a metric ton of violence that's happening on top of that.

like he ironically destroyed the the goodwill that a lot of people had uh coming in to his administration with the with the last i guess like post-afghanistan withdrawal Everything was bad after that with respect to Joe Biden's foreign policy. It's also tied to... I still defend the Afghan withdrawal, by the way. And I think the Democrats also dropped the ball on that, too, because they should have... stood 10 toes down and said that was the right thing to do we exhibited political courage

And for the record, Republicans tried to do a 13, you know, the 13 of our best soldiers died in Afghanistan thing over and over again. The cynical thing that they tried to do. Yeah. I mean, the Republicans are shameless. Democrats are less so. No, they should be shameless, though. I'm just describing what the issue is. Yeah, I mean, part of this, though, too, like, huge policy problem in how the Biden administration has responded to...

the war in Gaza. But on that issue, on a bunch of foreign policy issues, a bunch of domestic issues, some of the problem has been Joe Biden gave a State of the Union, which was good. And everyone's like, okay. I'm just, that's what happened, right? But other than that, he has been such an ineffective communicator that, and it has gotten so much worse over the last year. Yeah, because he's old as fuck. I know, I know, but like.

we're in this moment where we're like kind of trying to like, what went wrong? What about this? What about that? People are so mad. Like the people are like, The answers that Kamala's advisors gave were unsatisfying. Yeah, they are unsatisfying. But so much of this is just like there was a giant anti-incumbent fervor around the world. Joe Biden was completely unable.

to articulate a defense of his policies right like the fact that there is inflation and people are mad about inflation is not a reason alone like that does like that can explain why we lost if you accept that we had no agency in competing against that argument but like joe biden certainly had no like just could not communicate effectively

I think you'll see what happens when someone effectively bullies corporations, regardless of being a right wing Republican in the upcoming Trump administration. Things are going to get significantly worse for every single person. including the people that voted for Donald Trump. One of the funniest aspects of the tariffs conversation that's happening right now is that Donald Trump is going to implement

wide, you know, broad tariffs on 45% of all trade that comes in and out of the United States of America. Mexico, Canada, and China comprise 45% of all trade. He wants to tariff every single one. Tariffs are obviously an interest. fee that the American corporations are going to be paying. None of the countries are going to be paying for these tariffs. It's a policy that's going to destroy drop shippers.

which overwhelmingly vote for Donald Trump, and the Trump merchandise industry. So that's pretty funny. But having said that, it's going to be devastating for the economy. Now, what do I think Trump will do in the process? He'll obviously use tariffs. to basically get corporations and sector leaders on board with his agenda. So when he says jump, they say how high, or I'm going to slap you with tariffs and it's going to actually punish you. It's going to hurt your bottom line.

And I think that's part of the reason why they're going to do that. The other reason is it's a regressive tax. It's a broad sales tax on all consumers that, you know, disproportionately affects the working poor. And Republicans love that shit. But he also... At times, I think we'll just, you know, institute the Defense Production Act or something like we'll see it. We kind of saw it in COVID as well when it was a necessity. But but that's the thing. Like the American government is powerful.

All governments are powerful, but the American government is especially powerful. It's the wealthiest nation on the planet. And the way that it runs is basically it's like 50 companies in a trench coat. We are working at the best of corporations. We feed them with our tax dollars.

that turn into subsidies for them. They utilize those subsidies to, I guess, lower production costs, but then they use that to increase their profit margins and engage in what used to be illegal pre-Ronald Reagan, you know, stock buybacks and the like. And we're constantly deregulating the economy. And I think that... It's not just about having like a populist message. It's about actually implementing said populist message and show who your real enemies are. Like not be afraid to say.

These people are fucking your life up. And if you are truly the pro-working class party, as the Democrats want to be, as they claim they were historically, right? And there were certainly times when they were. Then you have to say these corporations and the wealthy that have given us money as well as the Republican Party and always have been hedging their bets.

are the real reason why you're feeling this economic anxiety, the real reason why you feel hopeless, that you will never be able to own a home, that you'll never be able to retire. And the Republicans are always in defense of them. They will distract you with lies. They will say your fellow neighbors, you know, your God-fearing Christian, Muslim, whatever, Jewish neighbors are your enemy. When in fact...

we know what the problem is. So we're going to bring them to heel. This kind of messaging is terrifying, obviously, for many different reasons. And it will never happen within the Democratic Party. But in the absence of that... I don't think that's true. We'll see. No, I think you'll just get focus grouped messaging and means testing about the opportunity economy, which Kamala Harris presented at a time when people were, you know, when wage growth had never actually caught up to.

the cost of living and cost of housing which by the way is like you need to be oh you need to deflate housing you need to build vast amounts of housing yeah the federal jobs program Get these fucking insults to work. Well, we got to get these insults to work. No, get them to work. Give them, whether they like it or not, they're going to get good, well-paying jobs with good benefits. They're going to get socialized medicine. Got to put the insults to work. And they're going to work.

None of this neat stuff anymore. They can't be online all the time. They're too online. It's your business. Now you're coming after your own business. It's fine. I'm happy. I would drop everything if we got universal health care and a federal jobs program. And we're building public housing all around the country. That's fine. This is an advertisement from BetterHelp.

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to go to therapy and talk with someone about it. It's really helpful. Visit BetterHelp.com slash PSA today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash PSA. What do you think the like kind of you're you're in the kind of I don't know. There's like the there's a place where the left the online left and the online right meets and it kind of meets a little bit at people who think RFK has some good ideas.

A little bit, a little bit. What do you think? What is the appeal there? Cranks. Just cranks? Yeah, anti-establishment cranks. There's a lot of them. There's the Tulsi Gabbard constituency, which is like marginal. It's not all that significant. But yeah, I think that the online left is not as robust a media ecosystem as people think it is in general. And besides that, they don't have any sort of political motion regardless, right?

You know, I have disagreements with the closest Congress members that are ideologically as closely aligned with myself as possible, but I still have many disagreements with them. And outside of that, I think, like, these guys that, you know, like RFK Jr. because they think he's going to make America healthy again, you know, they just like the crank stuff. Yeah. That's what it is. I mean, you know, you talk to...

Like when I'm really like four years, I guess eight years ago, Jesus. I remember after Trump won the first time. What I was feeling at the time, which I'm still feeling now, is that. The two challenges, right, is that like at a moment where someone like Trump is ascendant, like how do you keep this big left together, this big tent together from? Yes, it includes the kind of pro-democracy, anti-Trump right runs all the way to the far left and leftists.

how do you keep that big group of people together and i do think like you're right like there is just in part because there's just so much money behind it like the online right is i think it's it's bigger and more influential but it also knows how to get on board right like it knows like it fights it has disagreements it pushes but then it knows like for our ends for our goals we all need to get behind

Whether it's Trump or in previous elections, it was getting behind like Romney like figures, McCain like like they get behind those figures. And sometimes it feels like on the on the left, like there's no moment at which we say, all right, we've had the fight.

we've had the we've had we've had the debate we disagree on a whole bunch of stuff hey everybody we're going to get together we're going to make sure that we stop donald trump we elect joe biden as much as we let kamal harris like that moment doesn't come and like i'm not saying that

Democrats in power aren't in part responsible for that. I think part of what we need to do is figure out a politics that brings people in. But it is, it does require, it does like, everyone is responsible. Yeah, I think. Just as I was very critical of Bernie Sanders' campaign, despite, you know, still loving Bernie, because he was nowhere near as aggressive as he could have been in the primaries. And, you know...

Definitely should have probably gone on more like independent media route in a similar vein to Donald Trump. I am still because I blame the fault on Bernie's campaign strategies in the primaries. Despite recognizing the structural hurdles of like a left-wing populace coming out of...

Democratic Party primary where it's like the laser focused audience that goes out and votes at those things or like the MSNBC watcher base that is like objectively terrified of someone like that because people are saying he's going to start executing wealthy people. It's still his fault.

And it's still the campaign's fault in this regard as well. And that's why I brought forward the point that, like, you can have a billion point five. Right. You can have ground game. None of that matters if the message is not.

actually addressing the real issues that Americans are facing. And the reason why I think the Republicans can... go out and vote for the Republican Party and and don't usually sit it out, I guess, and instead are able to say suck it up and say, yeah, we're still going to vote for Donald Trump is because. There are single issue voters out there and Trump, they know that Trump is going to protect it.

People that like guns are going to be like, I like my guns. I want my guns to be protected. I want to be able to marry my gun. I want to be able to have sex with my gun. I know Donald Trump is going to be the guy that lets that happen. And I know the Democrats are going to shun me for wanting to have sex with my gun. So that guy is going to go and vote for Trump regardless. Right. On the other side, though, if your top line communication, your major policy prescriptions are like.

we have to preserve these institutions we have to preserve civility and we have to preserve democracy at a time when americans are like i don't give a about democracy just lower the price of eggs then there's no way that i could outflank the Democratic Party and get people to vote for Kamala Harris in a way that sticks, in a way that is going to be successful, no matter how much influence I wield. Yeah, I'm not even just talking about...

Yes. Take your point. Most people are just not voting. That's the problem. But the challenge, right, is that like there are like these three, let's say you say there's these three kind of media ecosystems. There's the right wing one. There's a kind of mainstream one. And there's the left one. The one on the right is built to attack Democrats.

the one in the middle is built to attack washington and politics and the one on the left is built to attack democrats it is i mean like i don't i think they're trying to pressure democrats to be a more moral and just version of itself i think i probably spend more time on Republican Party and Democratic Party but yeah I but I did but I'm saying when we're talking about like

When the right is talking, when right wing media, it is trying to be a team player and it is attacking Democrats and supporting Republicans. The middle is attacking both and the left is attacking Democrats and Republicans. There is no place, right? There is no like big. kind of fun, exciting media environment. Yeah.

outside of i guess this table where like you have a lot of people that are like critical the democratic party like annoyed by the same things we're talking about but ultimately it's just like we got to win and we have to get behind these people yeah well but again it is because for many people on the right-wing ecosystem like they have their toys they have their treats and the republicans are giving them those toys and those treats whereas the democrats are offering what

No, I agree. What are they offering? Well, yeah, no, I know. We've got to fucking figure it out. It doesn't matter to me. I'm rich, okay? I mean, I probably might go to prison if Project Esther gets kicked in or if they denaturalize me or something. Hey, come on. You know, I mean, who knows? We'll see. But you can be rich abroad.

That is true. What are you talking about? My point is, but I like being here. I like trying to solve some of the problems in America, at least. But overall, the point is not that I'm rich. The point is that... The point I'm making is that I care about my fellow Americans. I care about them, their lives getting better. They're improving their material conditions. I recognize that...

If Democrats keep losing, then Republicans are going to keep ruining this country further. And I want the Democrats to win. I want to be the most regime-pilled propaganda minister you've ever seen. That's what I want for you. But I can't do that if the Democratic Party is not offering anything.

I guess what I here's what I and I I think that's all fair I guess like where I'm like what I'm trying to see is like what is the path to the Democrats creating the kind of story that's backed by candidates that's backed by message that's backed by policy that's backed by having the right enemies telling that kind of story right and then in concert with that like it is a kind of like to go we do need a kind of like virtuous circle where then more and more people in left media start to accept

that the vehicle for changing this country for the better is the Democratic Party. If we were consistently, I mean, I can't speak for everybody else on the left. I don't know who you're talking about when you say this, but like I can speak to my friends that.

are uh over at drop site news former intercept guys like jeremy scahill and ryan grimm i can speak to majority report that was way more in the tank for kamala than i was for sure like they were very openly uh more excited at the prospect of kamala harris I was definitely a lot more depressed by no matter who wins, we are still cooked, was my attitude. But like certainly understanding and recognizing that John Trump is going to be far worse than Kamala Harris, of course.

and Chopo Trap House, right? So these are some of the largest media companies out there on the left, right? Outside of the orbit of the Democratic Party. Every single one of these outlets, myself included, talked more about the Biden administration's accomplishments with the NLRB, with Lena Kahn at the FTC, with like, you know, trust busting.

and numerous other accomplishments that the Democratic Party actually brought forward than they did. And it didn't matter. My point is, we always defended, we always, always defended the Afghan withdrawal. unconditionally you never saw that on even you barely saw that on msnbc

We always defended that. We always defended Lena Kahn. We always defended the NLRB. We always defended the walking, the symbolic move that Joe Biden made when he went to the UAW picket line. We didn't forget that. We talked about that. It didn't matter. It's not enough, especially when there is so much that Joe Biden did, I think, outside of the...

The economic pressures that Americans were experiencing that was certainly going to play a pivotal role in the election. But there's so much that he did in the month of October in 2023 that just completely wiped that. that made it impossible to defend him because it became the the major focus of a lot of people and There's nothing you can do in that moment when people are, you know, seeing exactly what's going on and getting frustrated. He unveiled the right wing immigration bill on October 5th.

2023 if I'm I might be getting the date wrong but it was like literally two days before October 7 he did that and then October 7 happened and he went and he bear hugged Netanyahu and and kept giving you know unlimited weapons to Israel over and over again, never restraining Israel. Everybody knew exactly what was going to happen. It had happened before and it was going to be much worse. And yet no restraint whatsoever.

and it it has i think diminished america's soft power capabilities on the global stage further it has eroded america's influence and and saw power capabilities in the western world obviously the global south already knew what was up they've always known but they have no power they have no voice it doesn't matter but the populations in western europe

recognizing what was going on and actually starting to protest against it, I mean, that's different. I'm saying this as someone who's been an advocate for Palestinian emancipation for the past 10 years publicly. I've never seen this groundswell of...

this this uh this massive sea change this this attitude shift in such a dramatic fashion over the course of the last 12 months and they did not address that at all and instead they hugged and kissed neocons and uh talked about even in the vp debate like israel having the nuclear first strike uh capability what an insane conversation we're having after 12 months of genocide like that's you know americans fancy themselves to be peaceful people it's a lie

America's foreign interventions are anything but peaceful. Even then, the media ecosystem usually just shelters Americans from the genuine devastating impact of America's actions globally. But for that reason, Americans... can at least feel like they're peaceful doves, which is why Donald Trump, despite never being a peaceful dove, was able to effectively communicate that he was actually anti-Iraq war against Hillary Clinton in 2016, which was a resilient message that actually...

showcase them as more moderate than hillary clinton in the eyes of many americans he did four years of no peaceful dove whatsoever and then he turned around and after october 7 was still able to effectively outflank the Democrats on this issue, despite the fact that he got $100 million from Miriam Adelson, Sheldon Adelson's wife, to potentially annex the West Bank and put rabid

Evangelical freaks like Mike Huckabee as the Israeli ambassador. These guys are insane. It is very heartbreaking for me too. Look, like I think one of the reasons people...

will be mad that you're on the show is because you're like a proud anti-Zionist, right? Like you said that. I've gotten shit for saying- I was like, damn. Joining us today, anti-semi dumbass. Yeah. No, but that, but like, I actually like- Like a couple, like two or three years ago, I said on Ponte of America that I described myself as a Zionist, which got people upset.

But what I what I said then and what I still say now is and I actually had the same conversation with Bernie is you ought to denounce the destruction and death in Gaza. You ought to denounce the moral. abomination that is taking over the West Bank on its own terms because it is morally reprehensible. It is despicable. These are war crimes being committed against. innocent Palestinians who are paying with their lives for the crimes of Hamas.

like you don't need to go further than that but i actually do go further than that and what i what i say is you're saying dismantle the zionist entity is that what you're saying no i'm not and so what i'm saying it well what i like i peace by peace inshallah i'm not saying that what i'm saying is it is also

for Israel. And you don't need to care about that. No, I agree. No, I know. I do care. And and that and like I what Bernie said, I like I. Always appreciate what he has to say on this issue when he said is that basically even Israel does not understand the way in which they're becoming an isolated Pariah yeah nation and so people will be mad to have someone who is a self-proclaimed anti-zionist on this show but like

I am someone who has called himself a Zionist, and I am against this because I believe it doesn't serve Israel's interest either. And that to me is what is so devastating about the outcome of this election, in part because of policy, in part because Joe Biden is such an...

incomprehensible messenger on one of the most delicate and and and contentious topics uh in american politics we now have donald trump who's able to uh kind of um allied what his actual views would be on this issue and like you know we are we have seen what happens

Israel when you have someone like Trump in power at a moment of crisis and now there is Trump back in office here and if you are concerned about the lives of Palestinians if you're concerned about continuing instability and violence and death in that region this election has just made everything so much fucking worse i think uh american foreign policy being so uniparty on this issue is genuinely frustrating and it's genuinely damaging for israel because

We recognize how our fellow Americans are becoming more reactionary every single day, especially with this new Trump election. You see people that formerly maybe had different opinions go, you know what, maybe it is good to... deport 20 million people uh violently by by utilizing the military potentially this is something that the donald trump administration has said they're going to do well at the very least even if people don't believe that'll happen or didn't understand like

the expectation that donald trump taking all these extreme positions would be enough yeah wasn't that just wasn't true yeah so i i what i'm trying to explain here is that before you know it People can succumb to reactionary feelings and reactionary sentiment and find themselves in the throes of fascist ideology without even recognizing it.

And I think examining that is important in an academic setting. That's why we have Holocaust studies, right? That's why we have genocide studies as an entire field to specifically understand exactly how Nazi Germany got to that position or fascist Italy got to the position.

it got to and and i think that you know you might even disagree with me on this but like that's where israel is that's where israel is at right now they have become An incredibly angry culture, an incredibly angry country that has succumbed. Especially since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, who wasn't exactly a great guy for Palestinians either. I mean, he was known as the guy who deliberately tasked the Israeli security forces in breaking the hands of children for, you know, stone.

for stone throwing right in the first intifada that guy was the like off-ramp for for peace negotiations with palestinians and they assassinated him and his assassins And people who are backing his assassins, like Itamar Ben-Givir, like Bezalus Matrich, are now firmly a part of the Israeli establishment, the current government. Israeli government. Yeah, well, I also...

There are also hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have protested this government. Yeah, for different reasons. But yeah, no, for sure. Yes. I just think it's important. Yes. Like Israel is responsible for Israel's. actions but we do need to separate benjamin netanyahu and his conduct from the israeli people in the same that doesn't mean they're not responsible in the same way that america is not george w bush

Right. But America is responsible for what George W. Bush when he is in command of our armed forces. Yeah. But we understand that distinction. No, no, of course. The problem is you have to also look at the Overton window, though, in any society, in any culture, in any country. Right. And I think that and I come from. i'm turkish like i come from a country with a with a conscription like i i understand how what ultra nationalism is

I've lived through it. I've experienced it. I know what it's like when Turkish people hear me say that the Armenian genocide is real, for example. That's like a non-starter, right? That's like, you can't say that. What are you talking about? I learned in school that it wasn't real, right?

understand how a country can become more and more right-wing where even the liberal position is still committed to the maintenance of an apartheid and i think that That is where we're at with with Israel and we have to restrain Israel as. as we are the number one partner of Israel, whether it be the weapons that we give to Israel, whether it be the financial support that we give to Israel, or whether it be the...

trade partnership that we have or, you know, the financial partnership that we have with Israeli companies. We have a lot of influence over what Israel does. And I think over the course of the last couple of decades, especially with Benjamin Netanyahu. Israel has become a more and more right-wing nation. Yes, because it is a country that now views itself as being isolated and under siege. This is all... gotten to be so hopeless.

Israel faces recrimination from around the world, feels isolated, feels like it needs to turn inward to protect itself, views itself as being under attack. Well, it's like the question right to me is like, how do you... break that cycle i agree it requires a ton of american pressure but it also i think like anti-zionist fervor To me, anti-Zionism itself is not a path to where we ultimately need to go, which is...

Peace, peace and Palestinian self-determination, right? Like that's what I believe in. Like that's what I care about. That's where I want this. Like Israel as a country that no longer feels constantly under threat, Palestinians being able to live. in peace and safety without being under occupation in control of their own destiny and to me like that

Like it's become a kind of like that is a two state solution. And anything that drives towards that, I think is ultimately the direction we need to go. Right now we're moving in the opposite direction, which is why this all feels so hopeless to me. Well, I mean, look, I used to be.

of that same mindset uh uh maybe like a decade ago as well where i uh i i i resort to the likes of avi shleem on this or elan papay on this in terms of like my analysis of it but like The settlement operations in the so-called peace process that were, again, funded by America as well and still funded to this day by the likes of KUFI, Christians United for Israel, which is the oftentimes...

Not talked about part of this equation that is significant. And dare I say more significant than whatever Jewish Americans think about Israel. Like it's the right wing evangelical Christians that are. uh the number one funders of of the settlement project but it's also like no consequences for the expansion of settlements yeah well that's and the use of settlement like that

What was once expanding settlements as part of a negotiation tactic towards what would ultimately have been a solution is now just a plan to take over the West Bank. Yeah, no, it's developing Bantastans, which they did. And my point is that...

That has made it virtually impossible for a two-state solution to exist, which is why I think that Israel already maintains sovereignty and that as an apartheid state, what needs to happen is to abolish the apartheid, which is something that, unfortunately, many Israelis... refuse to reckon with, at least right now, because that would mean 5 million Palestinians, including the 2.5 million Palestinian citizens of Israel, would now constitute a demographic majority in this area.

in this land that Israel enforces sovereignty over. And that is terrifying for its demographic destiny, its demographic goals in general. Well, just also, that's something to add. You can point, it's also something that...

Israel is never going to ascend to. No, I understand that, which is why I think the pressure campaigns, albeit minimal, but the... the change in attitude in the way that like a lot of people see this dynamic is significant and I think that inevitably things will change and we're seeing it right now we're seeing it with the ICC decision like this is uh this is a truly unique moment we're seeing it with the ICJ court case uh we'll see where it goes but I think that

I understand why even members in the State Department that I would directly be at odds with in the way that we examine the world have have from the start tried to say.

this can't happen that we need to use the liberal zionist off-ramp immediately we need to just like you know put benny gotts in charge or something like we need to just like single out benjamin and yahoo say he's the bad guy and then move in the direction where like a more a manageable more liberal person a more moderate person can uh be be left responsible and and restrain israel in some way in order to continue

Israel being an unsinkable aircraft carrier in a resource rich region. And they didn't even listen to that. Like the top of the administration just didn't even listen to that. Well, because Netanyahu is an obstacle to any kind of peace. I mean, this is a like we have been in moments.

in the recent past where Palestinians and Israelis were at the table and peace seemed within reach, right? And that seems very far away right now. We were, we were, we were. And that seems very far away right now. But to me...

That still seems closer than a single state. And to me, there's that sort of... a future of heading towards that is a future of a lot more chaos and violence and terror and horror and so i like come back to my my view remains that like the the future that the only hope is some kind of a two-state solution as far as that seems right now people want to say otherwise fine uh but uh

I think they're going to annex the West Bank. That's what I think is going to happen. And Trump is going to let it happen. This is the thing. And it's not even because Trump is like... ideologically committed to the Zionist project in the way that like Joe Biden was it's because Miriam Adelson gave him a hundred million dollars that's it Trump doesn't give a fuck yeah he doesn't give a shit about anything he's just like

yeah these guys gave me money uh i'm gonna i'm gonna listen to her and that's it and that was really funny because like that's what he's talked about

In the anti-Semitism conference that he put together, if you recall, he was like, I've done so much for you Jews. Why won't you vote for me? That's what he kept saying. He's like, if I lose, it's because of you Jews. I know, I know, I know. And it was insane because like... in his mind he thinks that's the only thing that american jews care about like it's the it's the dual loyalty trope but you also can't do that trope

in a woke way on mainstream media either when you are you know not i'm not saying you're doing this yeah i'm just saying like you also can't do that in a in a more woke way when you're talking about israel in in as many liberal outlets do sometimes when they talk about like well You know, you just want Israel to perish, I think. And you're probably anti-Semitic. And that, you know, it's just Israel has demographic concerns. It's like, okay, well, that's...

America has demographic concerns. America has white demographic concerns. That's a non-starter for me. You know what I mean? I don't care. Yeah, I mean, there is also... A ton of anti-Semitism. Oh, absolutely. I know you don't. I know. Yeah, 100%. Yes. Yeah, it's skyrocketing. And like that, but like, again, like I just, we got to move on from this, but like, it's just that you see it in our politics, you see it.

in politics around Israel, like this kind of vicious circle of people feel under threat, they turn inward, they become less and less empathetic. towards their neighbors, that leads them to be more and more isolated. And to me, it's like the question is not like I like I don't like I'm not even interested in like philosophical debates. Ideologically, how do you break that human cycle? And I think on our side, it starts with a policy that recognizes that it is in Israel's interest to stop.

the violence and to stop the killing. And that moving towards something like the annexation of the West Bank or the permanent occupation of Gaza or whatever it may be is ultimately not in Israel's interest. I know that that makes me sound like a neoliberal, but that is what I think.

No, I understand where you're coming from. I don't disagree with you. I think that that's why I was trying to bring it back to like American politics. And and I don't think it's an accident that in the past three decades, every single. western capitalist nation uh firmly planted within the the heart of empire firmly within the the uh The comfortable bosom of American imperialism has shifted dramatically to the right.

And in that process, I think, or leading up to that, there was a lot of austerity, a lot of clawing back of social safety nets, a lot of privatization that took place. Some people call it the inshittification of the economy or the inshittification of everything. And in that process, I think people got more and more angry. And the only people that benefit from that anger are...

always going to be far-right figures that can point to people that are defenseless and people that are less powerful than you are. And they were able to successfully use... The anger to redirect that towards nationalist sentiment, to redirect that towards racism. homophobia bigotry of all different sorts and that's why you're seeing the reform movement grow in the uk uh with nigel farage who now has a higher approval rating

than the very conservative Tory-adjacent Labour leadership in Keir Starmer. That's why you're seeing the AFD grow in momentum in Germany. That's why you're seeing Le Pen's party.

grow as well uh even if she goes to jail her her movement will not you know go away and every single in every single instance you have centrist moderate moderate to like center right neoliberal party leadership constantly trying to maintain the hegemonic status of neoliberalism and losing out to populist far-right messaging every step along the way.

Because when material conditions worsen, okay? And you might look at the technological improvements and say, what do you mean material conditions are worsening? Like, I can order an Uber Eats and immediately have it at my doorstep. But like, overall...

And the important things like educational attainment, health care, public transit, if we're talking about Europe, we don't even have that here in America. We can talk about it here too. You know, home ownership, these sorts of things are just getting worse and worse. year over year and it truly ruins people's lives and it leaves them angry and confused.

And right-wingers like Donald Trump or fascists like those in Europe, like Maloney's party in Italy as well, or Gert Wilders in the Netherlands, like these guys, use that opportunity to say, you know why you're mad? because muslim refugees came in and they ruined your beautiful european culture it's it's the challenge right is that like things aren't getting worse on every metric they're not and if you were to look at the last

I don't know, 50 years of American politics. And if you just showed people the economic data and you said, I want you to find on this chart where the United States elected a fascist dunce, you would not pick 2024. You might pick 2008. You might pick 1992. You might pick after the stagflation of the 70s. You might...

There are a bunch of times you might say, well, that that must have if it's someplace here, it must have been then. And so I do think like we have to I think housing is a big part of it. I think people being furious that life. didn't seem to come, like people are, I think, traumatized by the pandemic in ways we're still kind of, it's hard to see and hard to find in polling, right? I think there's like a deep anger about like, hey, wait, things never got back to normal.

I don't feel normal. Cost didn't come back down. Life seems worse in measurable and immeasurable ways. And I do think part of it is like, yes, it's material. But it's also, I think. Spiritual? It is. It is. There is something. I think that there was a bargain people were making when all the restaurants where they knew the owners closed and they were replaced by fucking Panera Breads and Subways.

and chains and when their supermarkets became chains and the walmarts came in right when people like to blame walmart walmart is both a symptom and a cause right i think like there was a bargain people made and the bargain was i'm gonna give up on the kind of dignity and community and sense of place and belonging that I used to experience in my town for this cheap stuff. But it better be fucking cheap and it's not. But I think people are very bad at understanding.

what they want and people i i do think that there's this collective feeling of like hey we traded something away to these corporations. And some of it we did unwillingly, some of it we did willingly, but we're not happy with the outcome. And I do think that that's about community. I do think that's about meaning. Yeah, what you're describing, I mean.

You're describing alienation. Yeah, I am. But that is a big part of it. But in the Marxian sense. Not like alienation in the normal understanding of it. But yes, you're right. Americans feel isolated. Everyone feels isolated. Everyone feels alienated. They feel alienated from their labor. And besides that, there is no sense of identity. And I talk about this quite frequently, actually. Our consumption is the only marker for identity. Even guns.

is a is a very important political identity for a lot of americans that's consumption that's no different than an expensive gucci bag okay it's actually more expensive in many instances and the culture that surrounds it is still ultimately at the point of consumption. And when there is a hurdle in front of that, whether it's cost or because you just simply can't go and buy it at the store or whatever during COVID and the lockdowns.

everything falls apart because we're a very fragile nation that is built on this idea that like, as long as I get shit for cheap, I'm fine. I don't really care. As long as the cost of eggs will go down, you know, 20 cents or a dollar. I don't care if 20 million migrants get deported is the calculation that some people made. And many people said it's not going to happen anyway. Now.

There is the other side of this story. I want to hear the other side, but I just wanted to add. The other side, what I was trying to say is this is what Kamala Harris did wrong, in my opinion. She could have gone up there and said, I am going to arrest the Walton family. And if she was able to successfully say, I'm going to arrest the Walton family and they're going to stand trial. Okay. In a military tribunal. And that is going to make egg prices.

$5 cheaper. Eggs are going to be 10 cents again. Americans would have voted for that. That's my point. So you don't have to go that crazy, obviously. No, I know. I know. Well, I guess it just like this to me, like these are the twin problems of dealing with a fascist threat. One is keeping a big fractious progressive.

small L liberal movement together. The other is how you defend the value of institutions that don't do that. And I know you're being- I'm being hyperbolic. I'm exaggerating, but I think that- for far too long, you know, deregulation and unconditionally supporting corporations and even having what you just described as like the

the formative opinion on antitrust like as long as the consumer is happy as long as the prices are low we don't care if you monopolize that's the right that's the rights view i mean we like democrats are now fight fight like no but some of this is like we're fighting back on that stuff no but so that was the that was the right view but that was kind of Uniparty for a very long time. At least since the 90s. I think the, the, the, but this is like, this is, I think.

Conservatives had an ideological view of this. Yeah. The Bork view of this. They came in and they said antitrust doesn't mean what it says in the law. It doesn't mean what it says in people's experience of what a monopoly does. It's this one specific definition, which makes it really hard to stop mergers.

And Democrats said, wait, hold on. Like kind of Democrats just didn't have a strong view on this. It just wasn't a motivating. It wasn't. It wasn't. I know, but why? Why didn't they? Well, I think they first I think that like I think the intellectual academic. left had to catch up to the damage this was doing. I think Democrats just didn't focus on it, didn't care about it. I also think there is money.

from donors, of course, of course, I'm not, I know you don't need to rhetorically cue me up, I know. But that's like, I think sometimes it is, I think it is not people saying, oh, I wish we would go after these giant monopolies more, but I got this donation, so now I'm not. But it's a culture. a kind of pro-business culture, right? That like kind of pervaded Democrats since the 90s that made

conversations about this kind of thing harder to have, which is different now because Lena Kahn is now the chair of the FTC, right? Elizabeth Warren created this Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, right? Like there has been a shift, but it is both a...

Not enough. And not a shift in people's actual understanding of what the Democratic Party is for. Because there's no immediate gratification that comes from that. I know. And the immediate gratification that is supposed to... happen could happen potentially with uh wide sweeping legislative agenda changes overall or like uh

Clearly communicating a pathway towards a more just outcome for healthcare, for example. That's not something that we're invested in. Things that touch people's lives immediately is going to yield very positive benefits. uh i will say this i think as far as uh as far as like lena khan or the consumer financial protection bureau

These are these are fantastic things that happened under the, you know, the watchful eye of the Biden regime. Well, Barack Obama and Barack Obama as well. The problem here, however, is that once again. I think out of genuine fear, maybe that they would disrupt or upset the Tony West coalition of the Democratic Party or the, you know, all of these like.

major donors that donate to the democratic party they didn't do a good job even explaining what they were doing and i'll tell you why i'm just real quick i just want to give you an example of the irs right joe biden funded the irs every dollar that goes to the irs i think is like what seven extra dollars or 30 up to 35 if i'm not mistaken i don't know the exact numbers but like every dollar that you spend on the irs you get 35 in return in america's coffers right

That's massive. That's fantastic. Republicans hate that. They hate the IRS. And many Americans also hate the IRS as well. They hate paying taxes. Partially because they don't see anything in return for it. Even though the IRS getting more funds actually retrieved a lot of tax dodgers that were refusing to pay taxes. And on top of that, their investigations concluded that I think Coca-Cola had avoided taxes to the tune of $16 billion. One company.

I never heard that from the Biden administration. They never went out. They never went out and said, this is why we funded the IRS. Yeah. Not because we want to come after you and your and your trailer. OK, in the trailer park with our armed agents or whatever. Republicans.

on the other hand, where like 85,000 armed agents are coming to your house. They're going to kill you. They're going to take away your children and they're going to take your guns and they're going to take your trailer park. Look, I think we paid for not having an effective...

communicator in the president like i think we paid dearly it's not just the president i know i know it's not just i know it's not just i know people just attack dogs sick on every uh every television uh show i think i do think part of the challenge is a lot of people are talking about what these agents would actually do it just doesn't get cover it doesn't get it

just doesn't matter people don't cover this kind of stuff that's a pop that's part of it I'm not saying there aren't Democrats I I like I agree with you like Democrats need to have a kind of combative

like if that's anything we take away from donald trump becoming president is that like clearly we need somebody people want a fighter they want a fighter they want a fighter and like and you can't fight for opportunity economy and fifty thousand dollars in tax credits for startups that is not something to fight for You need to be a fighter and you need to fight for things that are universally good and that people want, health care.

fixing the housing market yeah things like that well she did do that yeah i just like i i agree with you but again even her communication on that is like so much of the democratic party is is now officially captured by by what we would look back in the past as like unimaginably right-wing uh economic policies like tax cuts

And tax cuts in a public-private partnership. When I hear those words, I'm like, I'm not regime-pilled. I want to be regime-pilled. I want to champion the social democratic regime. I want to make... I want to make the Democratic Party make Olaf Palme look like a fucking revisionist right-wing reactionary. That's what I want. I want trains. I want trains.

I want better public transit. Better transit. I want more. I want you. I want socialized housing. Okay. See, but you're stopping it. I don't know, but what do you mean? We can't get into it. We're out of time. We've gone so long. What I'm saying is like- I am for building millions upon millions of houses everywhere. That's what I'm for. Yeah, but no public-private partnership. Build it with federal-

publicly funded employees, and build it as a mechanism to claw back the insane housing market prices to lower them by force. Okay. That's what I think. All right. I think if you said that...

A lot of Americans would be like, I like that idea. I think if a Democratic politician got up there and said, we are going to employ millions of Americans, we're going to have a national jobs program to employ millions of Americans building millions of houses, I think that would be very popular. I agree. Yeah. Okay. All right. You've regime-pilled as well. I am regime-pilled. Now, I did go on your feed yesterday to see what you've been up to. Oh, my God. Can we just put this up?

I think I know what you're going to post. I was looking for what your reaction was to the Harris campaign podcast, and I just found this. And I just thought, is this what the Joe Rogan of the left would post? I think Joe Rogan posts sexy pics of himself. Donald Trump wins and you're like, I think I know what I need to do. I need to post Hull. Yeah. You getting good reactions to this? Is this getting what you need? Well, I wanted to show my progress. It's been a while.

You know, that's like from 2021 until now. And I mean, I do talk about my fitness journey quite a bit. You do Pilates? What? You do Pilates? No, I train. I weight train and then I play basketball. What are you doing with cardio? basketball basketball yeah i play basketball three times a week sometimes four and that's been very good i also track my macro uh nutrients i i track all my calories what does that do for you what do you mean it's that

Right there. You think that's what it's doing? Picture on the right. That's how I got there. Oh. Yeah. I use Manjaro. It's awesome. Oh, nice. It's awesome. I have family members that use it as well, and it's been very helpful. Yeah, I don't have to think about it anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's fantastic. Do you feel like it's stopped your other addictive tendencies as well? I'm a better driver. Isn't that weird? Isn't that weird?

Maybe because you're not on your phone or something? No, I think it's because I'm not spending so much of my mental energy on diet. And so like I'm just a little bit less kind of spent and like kind of, I don't know, impulsive around other things. And so like I don't feel some need to like get home two minutes faster. It's hard to explain.

Like I don't feel as much of a need to find justice on the roads. I understand. Does that make sense? Yeah. You asked me, no, I 100% get it. You asked me like how, why you track your calories or whatever. Like I get.

uh i get a lot of comfort from the rigidity of my schedule my regimen and i don't even think about it because it's just a habit that i have at this point and for that reason it's not even a thing i think about at all it doesn't weigh on me but when i was um you know when i was eating in a very unhealthy way uh it did constantly weigh on me i was like oh i'm but it feels so good but also it's so bad for me but then you know you get that a little bit hopeless yeah yeah yeah it's true politics too

For sure. I mean, definitely. But, you know, you got to focus on whatever small victory you can have. And it's the same for fitness. And like I said, going back to the Joe Rogan of the Left conversation, I...

uh you know this is definitely something that i talk to uh my community about quite a bit and there's a lot of people in my community that have also gone on their own fitness journey i've been able to inspire them to to do this as well and i think it's it's important to to be physically healthy i do like just to make, just to close this out because we've gone on too long, but, like, there is something about, like, in terms of meaning and, like, a spiritual, like, I think there's a reason that...

There's been an appeal of people like the Jordan Petersons of the world and some of the kind of more like self-help right wing types. Yeah. And like, I do think there are a lot of people out there looking for not just sort of.

answers in politics but like answers about like why does like i feel unfulfilled working not working whatever it may be like i feel like i'm missing like community and the kind of leadership that would come from community and like i don't think that i do think that's why sometimes you see like i don't know like even on like the shows we do like i do feel like there's like a hunger for like something broader than just a political program but like more of a kind of way of grappling with

the fact that this version of modern life kind of dares us to ruin our own lives. Yeah. You know, I, I offer that. in my broadcast every day. I mean, I talk about my own personal journeys and I offer advice. I used to have an advice segment as well. I haven't done it in a while, but like, you know, I'm going to bring it back. and that's why i also like collaborate with other content creators even if i don't align with them politically agree with them politically at all but uh you know

There are plenty of people that I know who are my friends who I think as long as they're like relatively charitable and good and kind people, even if we don't agree on everything politically, it doesn't matter. And and, you know, I. find myself in these bro spaces a lot i've been on every single almost every single podcast that trump has been on yeah and and many of them are are run by my friends like impulsive uh my buddy mike malak is is logan paul's

Not the biggest fan of Logan Paul, but I love Mike. Mike is a fantastic human being. He has an incredible journey of overcoming addiction. and and he wrote about it as well he had a new york times bestseller bradley martin with the nelk boys i don't really know the nelk boys but like bradley martin i like a lot he owns zoo culture he's a he's a real meathead and

and that's the thing and andrew schultz as well i've been on that podcast too like these are a lot of these podcasts i've been on as well and like these guys and their audiences are receptive to yeah to what i have to say and i think like optics play a role in that for sure like the way i carry myself the way

I am naturally, authentically, I think is a package that young men are not immediately dismissive of and i'm very aware of that and i try to use that for good and i try to use that to like explain to people that like it's not cool to shit on random people for no reason. Let them live. What the fuck is this to you? It's not going to fix your life. You're being kind of a loser. An entitled little loser. And it's not good.

and that does work baby energy it works and i think my the size of my community now and and the makeup of it uh is is uh proof of that reality like i a couple years ago i didn't have the numbers that i have now and uh Every single person.

Virtually every single person in my audience will tell you that there is one key issue that I have dramatically changed their opinion on. Whether it be American foreign policy, whether it be the way that they viewed trans people and were transphobic, but now they're not. or even racist opinions. So yeah, that's what I try to do to the best of my ability in my little corner of the internet. Hassan Piker, good to see you. Yeah, thanks for having me. When we come back, Congressman Seth Moulton.

Joining us now, he's represented Massachusetts 6th District since 2015. Welcome back to Pod Save America. It's Congressman Seth Moulton. John, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me back. All right. So if you look at the map, it's...

A sea of arrows pointing red, including in Massachusetts. Nearly every county in Massachusetts shifted right. Both of the counties in your district did. Everybody loves after we lose an election to know why we lost the election. Did you see signs before? that made you think that we were in trouble? Oh, yeah. This didn't surprise me at all. I've actually thought for the past year, year and a half, that we were likely to lose.

And listen, I wasn't just sitting back. I was working hard on a winning strategy. I've been campaigning all over the country. And I have this group of veterans called Serve America who've been running in some of the toughest house seats across the country. to try to flip seats that we need to win to win the House back and to hold the tough seats that we have. We had an 89% win rate as of there's still a couple of elections that haven't been called.

I've actually been working on a really successful strategy, but by and large, it just felt like a lot of Americans thought the Democratic Party was out of touch. And when I remember being in Pennsylvania just a week before Election Day, and I did not have a good feeling. How much of that do you explain by people were just really fucking pissed about inflation?

Didn't believe they were seeing the benefits of Joe Biden's policies. Had a really negative opinion about Joe Biden. And as we've seen all around the world, there is just an anti-incumbent, anti-establishment fervor. The fact that Kamala Harris got so close to winning actually speaks to the fact that we mitigated what was a trend around the world.

I mean, look, there's definitely an argument there, but I think too often Democrats use that as an excuse because look at the opposition here. We are running against the first convicted felon.

to be president of the United States. We're running against a party that's got a civil war playing out across the country between traditional Republicans and MAGA Republicans. I mean, they couldn't even elect a Speaker of the House for three weeks. That's never happened in American history either. Never in America.

in history have a president's senior advisors, including military officials who usually don't get involved in politics, come out and said, this guy's unfit to be commander in chief. So my argument would be... I get there's anti-incumbency problems. I get there's inflation. But we were essentially running against half an incumbent himself.

And this should have been easy. We should have been cleaning up from school board to president of the United States. And so the fact that we lost it all is real cause for concern. Yeah. So in the wake of it, I like have these two competing. instincts. One is to want to be open and just listen to all the different perspectives on what went wrong. But at the same time, I end up feeling pretty suspicious when people say,

What they've always said. Right. You know, and I and I include in that Bernie Sanders puts out a statement after saying that Democrats have abandoned the working class. I don't believe that's true. I'm sure there are ways in which it's true. But Joe Biden was an incredibly progressive. president and did a lot of what Bernie Sanders had advocated for him to do. So obviously, the answer is going to be more nuanced in that. Then I see Democrats like Alyssa Slotkin saying.

that it's identity politics. But we've been through news cycles about more center-left figures blaming identity politics. Then I see you talking about how Democrats need to... have a debate about how we talk about trans issues because donald trump ran this ad about trans issues and i i so i wonder like wait a second like Are people going to the explanations that they have had in the past for the parts of the Democratic coalition that they just find annoying?

And, you know, when we lose an election, I blame the people that I don't like or that I have a disagreement with or that I, in some ways, find irritable. I mean, I think it's a really fair question. And we should always be suspicious. I mean, literally, we should have these debates about these tough issues, right? But what I would say is, you know, look, you don't have to agree with Bernie Sanders, but you can't say that we have followed his economic plan.

I mean, I think there's actually a really legitimate argument for a more populist economic policy, and I don't think we've adopted that. I think Alyssa Slotkin raises identity politics because a lot of Americans, not just... Democrats in tough seats, but a lot of Americans think that the Democratic Party is obsessed with identity politics. So I'm not sure we've put that issue to bed. And I'll tell you, a lot of independents that I hear from, including Marines that I served with, for example.

overseas who really don't like a draft dodger to be commander in chief and don't really want to vote for Donald Trump. But they say to me, you know, you guys are obsessed with identity politics or some other reason why we're just sort of out of touch. That is something that I hear.

And I think also on contentious issues like, look, I did this 20 minute interview with The New York Times and talked about a lot of places where I think the Democrats are out of touch or just not trusted on issues. And they picked out this quote about trans women in sports.

But I do think it was a problem that Harris really just didn't even have a response to this vicious, hateful ad that honestly Republicans clearly had data to say it was successful because they put $200 million behind it or something. And when you can't even respond to that. then A, it's bad politics because they can just clobber you over the head with it and win on issues like that. But also it does a real disservice to the communities that...

Only the Democratic Party will be there to protect. Because if we just cede the ground to Republicans and let them get their hateful policies through because we don't even have a reasonable response, then they win. And that's dangerous for our party politically, but it's also dangerous for exactly the folks like trans people and trans kids who genuinely need our support and protection.

You know, everybody's come back to this. So, you know, the ACLU does this questionnaire, then she's asked about it. That answer becomes the basis for this ad. And there's clear a choice and not just on this. But when she was asked about the policy changes she's had since 2020, tried to make it about values to avoid kind of creating a new cycle of she has changed her position. And when she was asked about.

This issue in an interview, she said some version of that was just the Trump administration policy, and it was a way to kind of get out of it. Now, you can say that that should have gone a different way, but more broadly, you know. The Biden administration puts out a compromise policy on trans athletes to try to...

Answer some of the concerns that people have and some of the attention that it gets while trying to stave off outright hateful Republican bans. Right. Like Demick. Right. That was an attempt to. kind of do, I think, Joe Biden did what I think you are asking Democrats to do, to try to kind of enter this contentious issue, try to have the debate and try to kind of signal some kind of...

The problem, right, is that like Democrats aren't obsessed with this issue. Republicans have a strategy of elevating, drawing attention to, making salient. this issue to try to make us talk about this issue. Sarah McBride about to start in Congress. She didn't come saying, I'd like to talk about where I'm going to go to the bathroom, please.

That's Nancy Mace and Republicans are thrusting it upon us. And so how much of when you say, oh, voters think or people think, independents think that Democrats are obsessed with these issues. How much are you kind of blaming Democrats for? living in a broken media ecosystem well look i mean

It's you're right, John. There's no question that Republicans are the ones bringing up these issues, badgering us over the head about it. Right. I mean, we never had a problem with bathroom policy until Nancy Mace makes a huge issue of it. And it's obviously an effort to just attack. this one path-breaking woman who's coming to Congress.

But the problem is, again, that if we just don't even have a response, then they're going to keep doing this because it works for them. And if we don't engage in this issue or refuse to debate it unless it's exactly on our terms or have an absolutist position that the majority...

majority of Americans don't agree with. Remember, there are a lot of Democrats who just think the only answer to trans women in sports is not the Biden's administration's compromise policy, but it's just an absolutist view that, no, there's no restrictions whatsoever, which, of course, I mean...

The Olympics doesn't even agree with that, right? So it's totally reasonable to have this debate. And yet the people, I mean, the fellow Democrats' response to my even just raising the issue was, no, there's no room for debate here. You can't even bring that up. I mean, the backlash really proved the broader point that I was trying to make. But I also think that, you know, this was exactly what the Republicans were able to do with immigration. I remember being on the House floor last year.

And there are some people, colleagues, running for this position of Democratic messaging committee chair, supposedly in charge of Democratic messaging for the House. And I asked one of the candidates how she thought we should deal with immigration. And her answer was, we should not talk about immigration.

I said, well, I actually think a lot of people are concerned about it because it does seem there's a real problem at the southern border. It's just, nope, it's just dangerous. It's dangerous to talk about it because it's used against immigrants.

And I just don't think that strategy has worked. It's why, even though we do have a reasonable bipartisan immigration policy, in part represented by the bipartisan deal in the Senate, Trump and the Republicans have just been able to clobber us over the head because...

there was a period where Democrats were just denying it was even a problem. So totally legitimate concern. Like, yes, Republicans are the ones weaponizing these issues. But if we want to win the debate, settle it, and then focus on the things that we want to talk about, we have to do that. We can't just cede this to the Republicans. We have to win. So on immigration, though, it sounds like what you're saying.

sometimes i think what we're doing is saying like boy we made a bunch of mistakes in 2017 2018 2019 2020 that have we have rectified but have not successfully drawn attention to that in the public imagination. Most Democrats in the House embraced a pretty conservative bipartisan border deal. Kamala Harris embraced that deal. Joe Biden embraced that.

deal. It's, you know, if the problem is a bunch of people running for president shouldn't have raised their hands about decriminalizing the border in 2020. Great. But I can't we can't go back in time and change what happened then. But it seems like a lot of what you're saying has been addressed. The problem is, is it that people don't believe it?

Because you just, you're pointing to, yeah, there are going to be some Democrats that disagree with what you're saying, but that's the debate. We're having it. Look, well, I don't I actually don't. I think the backlash against me was not we should have this debate. And here's my opposing view. It was literally you can't talk about this. Well, you did. I just say you did say it in a pretty dickish way.

You said it. You said it. But like and you said you said, I don't want my daughters overrun by a man on the football field like that sucks. You didn't exactly invite the best version of the debate yourself. But this is the problem, John. You step back from this discussion, right, and just hear two Democrats talking about the precise word choice and whether it was sensitive or not, which I—

I agree. It wasn't the most, perhaps the most sensitive words. Like, this is exactly how a lot of Americans feel that the Democrats are out of touch and that we are obsessing on these things rather than just having a reasonable discussion. I mean, yes, we're not always, not everyone is going to get the terminology exactly.

right even you know fellow democrats and i'll i'll take that criticism um but but we got to be able to take on the issues but look the broader point here right the broader point is that you know i mean just to go to go back to immigration right because you're right

I think the broader point you're bringing up is in some places we have fixed our problems, right? We are talking about the border. We do have a reasonable immigration policy. And so therefore the question is, if we have a reasonable immigration policy,

And Trump's immigration policy is both unrealistic and just hateful. I mean, it's going to tear apart families and communities across the country if he's able to deport millions of Americans, not to mention it will raise inflation, which obviously people don't want. Then why is it?

that the American public trusts Republicans more on immigration than Democrats. Why is it that we have a great economic policy? Harris's plan would not only continue to bring down inflation, but would actually reduce the deficit, something that Republicans... used to care about. Trump's policy would triple the deficit and dramatically increase inflation because deporting Americans, raising tariffs, and tax cuts for billionaires all contribute to inflation. And yet...

the American public trusted Republicans more on the economy. And I think my personal view, and I don't know if I'm right, but the view I'm proposing is that This is a place where people just feel like we might have the right policies, but there's a cultural mismatch. Like we're too preachy.

uh rather than listening to americans or we're standing in our ivory towers and we're not hearing the problems of working people especially in rural communities there's a sense that that people just don't trust us even if we do have the right policies and That's where I think we've really got to look ourselves in the mirror. I mean, look, I'm sitting here in Massachusetts with three Harvard degrees, right? Like, I'm part of the problem. Three of them? That's offensive.

But here's the issue, right? I got into this whole business because of my time in the Marines and feeling that I saw the consequences of failed leadership. in washington when i was serving four tours in iraq and I worked hard. I worked hard to get through school and to get to Harvard. I'm living proof that C's get degrees, so I didn't have a stellar academic career at that august institution. But when I showed up to my Marine platoon, my...

biggest liability was that Harvard degree. Because these guys, some of the best Americans I've ever met, 18, 19, 20-year-old kids, really, from across the country who wanted to serve, they looked at me and said, He might be book smart, but he's probably not street smart and he's liable to get us killed. And so when I show up with this degree, I've worked so hard for much of my life to earn.

And it's literally my biggest liability. What I quickly learned is that's not going to get their trust. And standing here and saying, well, let me tell you what I know because I went to Harvard and let me tell you how we're going to do this is not the way to earn.

the trust of those marines and i think it's similar for us in in the democratic party especially where we're concentrated in cities and urban areas we're concentrated on the coast we just can't have this cultural arrogance of always telling people oh we're right and you're wrong Not only you're wrong, but you're a bad person if you don't agree with us. That's what a lot of Americans hear from Democrats. I had to say to these fellow Marines, I respect you. I hear you. And that's...

how I'm going to earn your trust, not by trotting out my degree. Yeah, well, I think that's smart. I think nobody from Harvard should ever trot out their degree. But I think you're right about that. And by the way, like. I also think, especially when it comes to issues that like, like, I think we have backslid on LGBT issues, specifically on trans issues. Right. And I think it's worth thinking about how that happens. And I think part of it, to your point, is we need to like.

not assume people have a lot of knowledge, not assume people are approaching it with bad faith. The reason I'm criticizing you and I'm talking to you about this in this way is because I'm holding you to a higher standard. If there are people that are new to this issue, I genuinely believe that the more people know. trans people talk about this, I think that that's good for this debate. I think we will win this debate.

I think there's a difference, though, between how we talk about this with people we're trying to persuade and help understand that, no, like this bathroom issue, like AOC's what AOC said about it, I thought was like, like perfect. Right. Basically saying that, like, hey, like.

This is just a crazy thing that makes women and girls unsafe. Right. Like that was one way to talk about. But like I think people want a member of Congress and a Democrat who's introducing a debate about a sensitive topic to be. to be someone that they can trust to lead that conversation in a way that doesn't make them feel like he's not on their side. And I think that was the problem, right? Like, I think you're right. Like, we need to talk about, like, I think that there's.

Completely a conversation that has to be had around sports specifically. Right wing Republicans, they're obsessed with the sports issue. Like, I don't want sports like I just want trans people to be safe and not to be afraid to go to the bathroom at the airport.

Right. Like and just to be able to live their lives. And if there's any way in which the issue around sports is a distraction from that or that there's legitimate questions and nuance that needs to be addressed, like we should have that conversation. But to the larger point that you're making, yes, like Democrats. have this front of the classroom vibe, right? That like, we are hand raisers, we are teacher, you forgot to assign us homework.

And we need more like back of the classroom energy. One of your colleagues who talked to John also did. a conversation with the New York Times, Marie Glusenkamp Perez. And she said, we need to keep it local and that we shouldn't be represented by any more lawyers. Where's your head on the lawyers? Should we, are we done with lawyers?

I guess, you know, I mean, look, some of your best friends are lawyers. Some of your best friends are lawyers. Oh my God. Who am I going to offend by this comment? She's not afraid. She's not afraid. I, gosh, if you know me, I mean, you know me a little bit better. I'm always railing. Unloy.

Yeah, it's easy to go after a trans quarterback, but now lawyers suddenly are skittish. I think that this is part of the problem with the Biden administration. You know, look, I'm like a foreign policy lawyer. Everyone asks me, like, what do you think about the Biden administration's policy on Ukraine? And my answer is, I think. they've done everything right three to six months late. And why? Because rather than being

an administration filled with decision makers and executives and people who've run companies and whatnot, real leaders, right? It's filled with a lot of lawyers who are just obsessing over every detail and hemming and hawing. And I don't know, is this going to cause this or that? And what about... the particular legal restrictions like just get them the guns like yeah just get them the artillery just get them the tanks fuck harvard fuck lawyers that's where i'm at

Well, at least we can all agree on that. But, you know, look, there are a lot of Americans who, like, we do have to, if we want to be the majority party, if we want to win. To me, this is all about winning. We can't advance any of our agenda, any of these issues that we believe.

are so important if we don't start winning elections again. And you just simply can't, by definition, win elections if you're not in touch, you're not relatable to the majority of Americans. And so we have to pay attention to... what the majority of Americans are thinking and meet them where they are, have a discussion on their terms. And then, you know what? We can try to bring them around to ours. I agree with that. Democrats are preachy. I feel like everybody's right.

Bernie has a point. I agree with you. The Democrats are pretty annoying. I'm pretty annoying. I'm a pretty annoying Democrat myself. Look, I can be pretty damn annoying myself, too. But, like, look, can we talk, like, okay, what's the action plan here, right? Yeah, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? What are we going to do? First thing is, I think we need to, like, we can't just say we need to listen more. We need to preach less. Like, we need to actually very publicly.

Go out and listen to Americans and make that a very public thing where leaders of our party, like Chuck Schumer, sitting at, you know, cafe in Ohio. Like if he wants to be the leader of the Senate, if he wants to be the face of Democrats in the Senate. He needs to get down with farmers and sit on a tractor and just not to make a photo op, but actually to listen to what they're saying and listen to what their concerns are. So I think that we need to actually practice that idea.

The second thing is you brought it up, actually, these interest groups, right? I mean, another word for it is lobbyists. And we always rail against Republicans for being beholden to the gun lobby and the oil lobby. Totally true. They totally are. They're afraid of these folks. But we're afraid of some of our own lobbyists. And we are beholden to these candidate surveys. And we stress over them. We would just not do that. Just listen more to people outside of Washington.

rather than inside the beltway folks who sometimes don't even represent their own interest groups, right? They're more extreme than many of their constituents, right? And then the third thing is we've got to elevate more leaders in our party. who know how to win in these tough districts. Like you look at some of the Serve America guys like Pat Ryan, Abigail Spanberger, Alyssa Slockin, Jerry Golden, who won the most Trump district in the entire country.

I mean, these men and women who are true leaders in the Congress. They don't get to be chairs of committees. They don't get to be leaders of Democrats in leadership positions in the House because those all go to people in safe districts. Everyone in a leadership position, almost to a person.

is in a safe district. And so we never hear from the perspectives of people who do have to talk to independents, who do have to earn every vote, because they might lose an election. And they only win by, you know, a sliver. like Slockin, like Golden. We need to elevate more of those leaders in the party. And I think those are three concrete things. More listening, less preaching, and actually show it.

actually elevate leaders who can actually tell us how we need to win across the country and do these things, and then pay more attention to them. the people rather than the interest groups and lobbyists doesn't mean that they don't matter and that their views aren't important but we can't be beholden to them what do you think about ranked choice voting i love it

I love it because, I mean, it's a tricky concept to understand. I believe that if someone had just sat down with the founding fathers and explained ranked choice voting, we would have it. Because it just... ultimately results in candidates who are more representative of the majority of people and you're smarter than i am so you can probably do a better job of actually explaining why that's the case but that's the bottom line is you actually tend to get people who are more representative of

the broader electorate as opposed to just, OK, you win a primary by running to the extreme right or the extreme left, and then you get. An extreme conservative and extreme liberal in the general election. And people feel like, wait a minute, like I'm kind of in the middle and I don't know which way to go, which which way to choose. And that's how we get these very polarized districts and these very polarized members.

Congress. And I agree with all that. And I just until I think people are brave enough to really take on the lawyers publicly, I think we're going to be I think we need to start an anti lawyers. Movement I mean this is begun. It's begun. I mean I checked I checked your I before I I was like I was actually and this is I'm sorry Maybe this is slightly insulting. I was like is Seth a lawyer?

I got to look it up. I'm sorry, but you do have three degrees from Harvard. Are there no other schools? You don't speak like a lawyer. You don't speak like a lawyer. Were there no other schools you thought you might want to check out? No other quads? I got to go to Harvard three times. They didn't let me in once. I've been rejected by Harvard as many times as you've gone there. That's something that happened to me. Well, Harvard makes mistakes too, John.

And that's important to keep in mind. Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Been great. Great to be here. Thanks. Thanks to Seth Moulton. Thank you to Sam Piker for joining us. Now, as I said at the top,

There's a conversation Dan had with Jen O'Malley, Dylan, David Plough, Quentin Fulks, and Stephanie Cutter from the Harris campaign. Afterwards, Dan took questions from listeners about the interview and had a bunch of really interesting thoughts on what he learned.

more there is to learn that is now available as an exclusive bonus episode for subscribers on the friend of the pod feed reminder when you subscribe to friends of the pod you're also supporting crooked's mission to build a progressive media ecosystem we're also offering 25 off annual subscriptions

right now. So head to crooked.com slash friends or subscribe now from this feed on Apple podcasts. That's our show on Friday. We'll be dropping our annual Thanksgiving mailbag episode with tons of great questions from you all. And then John Tommy and I will be back. in your feeds on Tuesday morning. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. We're recording this on Wednesday. I already spatchcocked the turkey, cut the backbone right out. It was a whole procedure.

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