Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm John Favreau. I'm John Loveett, Tom P.D. Torrin. I'm Dan Fyfer. What a debate, fellas! Love it, my first question is for you. You came back from Fiji way too soon. If you would only stay a couple more weeks, put me back in, take away my phone, leave me out of this. So we all just like many of you endured the 90-minute debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
I think you're hearing this in the morning, so you probably remember it. Maybe you're fortunate and you don't, but just in case we're going to refresh your memory, here's a clip of what happened. We're at state. We're in six weeks. You don't even know whether you're pregnant or not, but you cannot see a doctor have your and have him decide on what your circumstances are with you need help. Look, there's so many young women who have been including a young woman who just was murdered,
and he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by an immigrant coming in to talk about that. If he wins this election, our country doesn't have a chance, not even a chance of coming out of this rut. We probably won't have a country left anymore. That's how bad it is. He's the worst in history by far. President Trump, the question was about what would you do to make South care more affordable? He can't hit a ball 50 yards. He challenged me to a golf match. He can't
hit a ball 50 yards. I'd be happy to have a driving contest with him. I got my handicap, which one I was vice president, down to a six. I told you before I'm happy to play golf if you're carrying on back. Think you can do it? That's the biggest lie that he's a six-handicap of all. I was at eight-handicap. I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either. Look. That was the debate. Look, we always want to be honest
with you guys. I don't think we need to... You know, listen to us for us to sugarcoat anything. I think it was a fucking disaster. I think it was like maybe the worst debate I've ever seen in my entire life. Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. Donald Trump is a just the spicable human being. He should not be president. We have to do literally everything we possibly can to make sure he is not president again. That is why last night was so fucking awful because Joe Biden
just in every single way failed at that debate. I don't know what else to say there except that... I won't make any other predictions now, but it was a disaster. Yeah. I mean, look, debates are a performance and what you say and how you say it both matter. And so the optics to start there were very bad tonight. Biden had to answer concerns about his age. I think he exacerbated them. His voice sounded frail. There was an answer where he kind of stalled
out halfway through the cut shots when Trump was speaking. We're not kind to Biden. In the first debate in 2020, he did a very good job of kind of smiling or like taking notes. I counted, I think he smiled twice or three times in a few minutes. Yeah. I mean, this time he looked confused the times he was looking away. And those clips are already flying around TikTok. Like that's the online spin war that's happening as we speak. No deceptive editing necessary. Yeah. How much of a war?
I mean, in the substance, I just, I don't think Biden landed the hits he needed to land. We just heard him... He needed to prosecute the case against Trump on abortion. There we heard a clip where he sort of took an abortion answer and wound up at a point about immigration. I don't think he made a strong economic argument. The attacks on Trump's felony convictions were strong. That's not to say that Trump was great. I don't think he was. He ducked questions. The mean angry Trump came out
at times. But like, I came into this debate anxious about Biden's performance and focused on Biden's performance. And I felt like the first 15 to 20 minutes were the worst part of the debate for Biden. And that's probably all that some people watched. And so, like, I think we're all angry and frustrated to be in this position. Joe Biden has done a great job as president. He has better policies. He has a better team. But his job is to communicate those ideas and then make a contrast
with Trump and what he would do. And he failed at that. And his other job was to put to rest concerns about his age. And I think they were made worse. So this debate was a really important moment in this campaign. And it didn't go well. And I'm also worried that there might not be another debate. Because if you're Trump, you might be thinking, why not just leave it at that. I mean, this Biden was not forced to do this debate. He wanted this debate on this timeline. This
is something he's campaigned. Sort of out of the lane broke with all precedent in modern political history to seek out a debate outside of the debate commission process in June. Because, and I think, and I agreed with that strategy at the time because it was an acknowledgement that this race was profiling in a way that would likely lead to Joe Biden losing. He was behind in the polls. It was functioning really as a referendum on Joe Biden. Voters were not focused enough on
Donald Trump. They were concerned about his age. And they believed the best way to address that was to get on a stage in front of a national televised audience and to swage those concerns. And he did not do that. He, as Tommy said, he exact the opposite. He did the exact opposite of that. And like you said, this is painful to say this because we adore Joe Biden as a person.
He's a fundamentally decent, wonderful human being. And he has accomplished a fuck of a lot as president that he should be proud of and we should be proud of. And he has done a good job as president. And I believe that tonight's performance is not a reflection of the kind of president that he is. But it is a very concerning piece of evidence about the kind of candidate he will be in this race. Because you need to ultimately be able to defend your
record and make the case against Donald Trump. And there is never in the history of politics been an easier candidate to make a case against than Donald Trump. Donald Trump gave him ample opportunities to do so. If Joe Biden had given a B minus performance tonight, we'd be talking about Donald Trump. He lied. He made very little sense. He didn't answer any question. He became much more incoherent as the debate went on. Donald Trump did for sure.
And this was maybe one other debate and maybe one, but this was Joe Biden's best and biggest opportunity to address the single biggest concern about his candidacy. And he did not deliver on that tonight. And that is deeply disappointing. Yeah. Here's at first it was shocking and it was scary. And it was sad. And by the end, it was absurd. I'm also, by the way, I'm not really buying this spin that the first 20 minutes
were terrible. And then he got somehow much better. That was not my experience in watching this debate. Like I think part of what makes this so sad is A, we understand the stakes. B, we've viewed Donald Trump as an eminently beatable figure. And C, we believe Joe Biden to be an excellent president. I believe that. I believe Joe Biden ran because he loves this country. And he believed his case against Trump was the best. He was right about that. I believe he was an extraordinary
president and played the hands better than anybody else could have played it. But the most important job Joe Biden has as president of the United States is to beat Donald Trump. And unfortunately, he went into this, this debate in a, he was behind. His job was to overcome that dynamic and
changed it. He emphasized it. And for the same sense of decency and empathy and patriotism that led Joe Biden to run, I believe this is a moment to at least have a big open conversation about whether the best thing he can do for America to end his presidency as the success it deserves to be is whether or not he should step aside. And already I know like because the stakes are so high, you see people afraid to have that conversation and fine. But what I don't appreciate is people
immediately saying, well, we know Joe Biden won't step aside. We know Joe Biden won't do this. We know Joe Biden won't do that. I don't know what Joe Biden's going to do. Nobody knows what Joe Biden's going to do. Joe Biden was still on stage while some people were saying that they know Joe Biden is not going to step aside. I believe Joe Biden loves this country and wants what's best for it. And so there's a lot of messy, complicated, confusing unknowns ahead of us. But the first,
I think the first step is let's have the debate about which path is riskiest. Is the riskiest path sticking with Joe Biden or is the riskiest path saying we want someone else? And anybody who says that that is not a tough call right now is full of fucking shit. We're going to get to that in a bit. We're obviously not the only ones who are thinking this. And that's not just because there's like Democrats privately freaking out, but that's happening. Most everyone I know in my life is also
freaking out. So that's also happening. But just to give you an example, as soon as the debate was over, this is what we heard from CNN's John King. Let's listen. Anderson, this was a game-changing debate in the sense that right now, as we speak, there is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party. It started minutes into the debate and it continues right now. It involves
party strategists. It involves elected officials. It involves fundraisers. And they're having conversations about the president's performance, which they think was dismal, which they think will hurt other people down the party in the ticket. And they're having conversations about what they should do about it. Some of those conversations include should we go to the White House and ask the president step aside. Other conversations are about should prominent Democrats go public
with that call. So that was John King. So then we heard from all sorts of Democrats, Cape Edingfeld, former White House communications director, said that it was a bad performance. We heard from multiple other Democrats who said that there's members of Congress. I mean, we're recording this at midnight. So by the time you hear, there's probably other Democrats that will have said this too, but members of Congress are giving blind quotes so far. So the panic
is real. It's happening. I almost feel like it is underselling it or minimizing it to call it panicking or bed wetting. Look, if this was September or October, we would be honest that this was a horrible debate, but say, look, it's too late. The election is in a couple of weeks. Obviously, we should vote for Joe Biden and we should do everything we can to make sure the Donald Trump doesn't win and make Joe Biden another president. But what Joe Biden did was agree to this debate,
propose this debate and agree to this debate with seven weeks left to the convention. And as you said, love it. Like we now, it would be silly not to have this conversation. And that's not to say that a contested convention would be easy or necessarily nominate someone who can beat Donald Trump. That is the reality of the situation we're in right now. But I think like, and look, it's up to Joe Biden, right? Joe Biden is going to make this decision. The people around him
are going to cancel him on this decision. But like, I think that everyone else who saw what we all saw last night needs to be honest that like he, it's not just that, look, we've talked about debates before. Debates are performances. Debates are silly. They get scored Barack Obama. Had a terrible first debate against Mitt Romney, right? And then he went out there and he fixed it, right? The terrible debate that Barack Obama had against Mitt Romney was nothing like this. This
is just another level, right? I've never, like I said, I've never seen any political. Can you can you guys think of a political debate that was as bad as, uh, the previous worst debate that any of us have ever seen was the first presidential debate last time. And the difference between that debate and this debate, and I think part of the reason this debate feels worse is that it was a despicable display. But we didn't come away thinking that the race had suddenly tilted against you,
Biden. This was a horrible debate. What about one that debate? Right. But well, clearly everybody walked away saying that was the worst debate they've ever seen. I hate politics. Right. That was a reaction. I think people had the exact same reaction to this. Nobody came away from this loving politics or loving Donald Trump. Or loving Donald Trump. I don't think Donald Trump picked up and no one was like, oh, you know what? Donald Trump has a swage. My
concerns about him not being a fucking lunate tech. I don't think that happened. But I think people were fucking, what we, I don't, I mean, it's not just that Joe Biden needed to like make the case against Donald Trump in a debate. Donald Trump is a threat to democracy right now. And we need leaders and we need a president to actually make the case for why Donald Trump is unfit for office as we all know. He did not bring up, like he didn't make a case against January 6th. He didn't talk
about the fact that he tried to overturn the last election. He didn't talk about the fact that he is facing an 88 felony counts. He said the words convicted felon once. Then he's there talking about all the sets with the porn star. Allie cats. Allie cats, right? He didn't bring up like almost any of Donald Trump's vulnerabilities in a coherent way. Let's talk about Trump's performance in a minute. I mean, Trump lied constantly. He lied about his position on abortion.
He lied about COVID. He lied about January 6th. He blamed Pelosi for the insurrection. The problem was the moderators had told everyone we're not here to fact check. And it was Joe Biden's job to effectively call him out for what he was getting wrong and then make the case against him. And he just failed to do it. And look, I don't think Trump was good, but to his credit, he was
relentlessly on message. Everything came back to illegal immigration. He made almost every question about the border because he knew that was his strength and that was Joe Biden's weakness. And there was no equivalent effort to get on a message that had Trump on his back heels from the Biden side. It was frankly just kind of hard to follow answer after hard to follow answer. I am open to the idea that like we are freaks who watch this in a way that is different from the way
maybe undecided voters would watch it, right? There was dials that came out throughout saying people dislike them both. Like I'm open to, I can see that. Completely. For sure. I can see that. And by the way, I'm also open to the possibility that this debate doesn't have a severe impact that the actual impact of it won't be as long-lasting. And I'm
extremely open to the possibility that Joe Biden can come back with us. But I think John, what you're getting at here is I think the reason this felt so disparaging and so important is because the way in which he lost this debate at a time when he needed to change the dynamic makes us very, very concerned that he cannot change the dynamic in any other setting that he is not the person to make this argument for himself or against Donald Trump.
And again, so we watched the debate end and then Joe Biden appeared at a watch party and he was much more energetic. At the watch party, he was much more coherent, though even there, because everyone was like, well, where was that Joe Biden? Yeah, energy-wise, coherence-wise, for sure. But his message was like, he started talking about the dog face lying pony soldier. It was not good. Everyone's grating on such a curve. It was just a weird one-minute speech.
It was a weird, yeah, exactly. And so I don't, like I just feel like we're now all, yeah, we're now all like grating on a curve, everything's relative. But it's like, hello, we all, we all saw this, right? Well, that's the one that you can't, I'm not going to be convinced that I don't tell me my eyes are lying. Like I saw what I saw. Like a handful of things can be true at the
same time, right? The Joe Biden performance was very bad at a very bad time. That if you were, it's also true that if you were to show swing voters who did not watch the debate, only footage of Donald Trump speaking, they would be very unhappy with that. Oh, for sure. And I would be shocked if they weren't. Yeah, I mean, he did not, he did nothing to improve his standing in the race.
All he did was just be better than Joe Biden, right? And so, and I would say Trump did, what Trump did do for all of his bad, unpopular policy positions, refusal to answer questions, his repeated lies is he was more restrained than he was in 2020. And so you could watch that and not come away with the idea that he is like, that's what Biden wanted. What's strategically should have done is try to when Trump got mad was when Biden went after him on January 6th early. And if he had done that
earlier, and sort of got Trump off his game, but Biden couldn't do that. The bigger thing here is Biden is behind in this race, right? We can debate by how much but Trump has an advantage in the swing states and and and maybe all six of them right now. And so how do you change the dynamic in race? You either change the dynamic in race by taking advantage of huge high leverage moments with lots of eyeballs on you in delivering in a big way. But I did not do that. And there may not
be another moment like that because the convention speech is not a moment like that. No, because Trump gets a convention speech Biden gets a convention speech. They're planned. They're mostly watched by partisan's watch and 100% and the other way you do it is by waking up every single day, dominating the media conversation and making compelling, relentless argument for yourself and
against the other person. Joe Biden has not done that in this presidency at any point. And look, if if if suddenly he wakes up tomorrow and can do that for the next several months, right, then great. Right. So happy. You were doing multiple. You're doing multiple rallies a day. You were doing every single possible media hit you can do. You're going into unfriendly territory to do things that go viral, right? You know, it's like Trump was on, I don't know which Paul's Logan Paul, Jake Paul's
podcast. Sure. And then either Jake will remember like challenge Biden to do it. Like get go like in a different candidate could go do that and just like take him on and get in his face. It have a viral moment and show your strength whether Biden staff are treating him with kid gloves or they be because or maybe because of tonight. They think he can't do those things. He is not doing that. So it's the question is how is he going to change the dynamic and the race
going forward if tonight happened and we may not get another debate. There was one question and answer that I thought was kind of damaging for Trump. And I wondered if you guys agreed. He was asked, what do you say to voters? I think you violated your oath on January 6th. And Trump said, on January 6th, we had a great border on January 6th, we were energy dependent on January 6th, we had the lowest taxes, the lowest regulations. We were respected around the world. Then he went
into a pivot. I wonder, I don't know, like rhetorically it was clever, but I wonder if you were like, what are you talking? That was my reaction. I thought it was bizarre. And I'm like, it seems like something that they had planned. And I was like, that is not a that is, that cannot be effect. Clever was the wrong. It was like, it was a rhetorical only answer that never touched the assumption. It's like giving like, like, like, what do you call those things? Fidget. Fidget's been
hurt to a kid. It's just like, here's something he will say that will not likely not damage him more than what he would say on his own. But then this is the problem, right? Because there's Joe Biden standing there and he's not lies or, or, or, or fast or, or direct enough to be able to counter punch in any of these moments. He tried there. He said, we, he tried to get him to say, well, you denounced the proud boys. You told them to stand by. Well, you denounced the insurrections.
But he just couldn't get it out. He couldn't get it out. He wouldn't ignore it. And by the way, I just, I also want to say, I'm really not up for a debate about CNN and their rolliness. If you watch that debate and you came away thinking the problem with CNN, go for a walk outside. That is ridiculous. So speaking of CNN, so the first debate in 2020, the CNN post debate poll,
Joe Biden, 60% of voters thought Joe Biden won, 28% thought Donald Trump won. Tonight, the poll just came out, 67% of voters think Donald Trump won, only 33% think that Joe Biden won. It's a big swing. It's a 66 point swing towards Trump. There was also a Frank Lens's focus group of all undecided voters who, again, Lens was tweeting this through the debate at times, we're saying, oh, they're mad at both of them. They don't like that Trump's being so personal.
A tiny bit of purchase on which to have hope. And then at the end, they're all undecided voters. And all of them think that Joe Biden should step aside. There was a, there was a focus group on MSNBC, just before we started. One of the voters said, we should have, I love Joe Biden's policies. I think Donald Trump's despicable, but Joe Biden can't execute. Like we should have an open convention. I love that moment with that. There was a, there was a despondency with that person.
Because what you got was how much they disliked Donald Trump and understand already that Donald Trump doesn't fight for them, doesn't care about them, isn't out for them. But they see Joe Biden even though they want to be for Joe Biden. What they saw, it made them really, really concerned. And this is what voters have been saying. This is what lots of people have been saying for, for years now, it has gotten worse and worse. And what Joe Biden said when there was a big
news cycle. All right. When everybody said it was too late. And this, there was a big news cycle about this. Joe Biden, remember he was, he did a press conference. It was very combative. And then someone shouted the question at him and he said, watch me. Especially after the Robert, her special counsel court. The Robert, her special counsel court, Joe Biden turned to the door, turned back,
creakly and said, watch me. And by the way, like I, this entire time, have been just very uncertain right about what was the more dangerous or risky path given the threat Trump poses, right? Do you, do you trust that Joe Biden can overcome these concerns about his age enough to make this case? Or do you believe you should go down the messy and unknown path of seeking out a different nominee? And I think what we saw tonight means we need to have that debate. There's a lot to come.
It's complicated. It's uncertain. It's risky. But we have to have that conversation. I think they're, I think it's totally acceptable to wonder aloud and openly talk about the path of the convention. I think it's totally legitimate for folks to say, you know what? Actually, I think sticking with Joe Biden is the best chance we have at winning. So we all should do that. What is not acceptable is telling people to stop bed-wetting or that they didn't
see what they saw or that, oh, you guys just need to just be Twitter and Twitter. It's time to grow a spine. Enough with that rhetorical bullshit. It's insulting to people who are on your team who want to fight for you, but have eyeballs and care deeply about this country and are anxious because we all have a stake in this election. It's not about one man on the ticket or about the staff around him. It's about the fucking future of the country. And by the way, I,
the staff around him, he's, he has a great campaign team. The staff is fantastic. Yes, they are doing everything right. The person who is to blame right now is Joe Biden because he has told all of us, I am the guy. Like he's thought it through, I am the guy, bet on me, I'm going to do it. And then he did this. And then Joe Biden and anyone around him, whether it's
the first lady, whoever else, has like keeps encouraging him to do this, right? And like, I feel bad, I feel terrible for the staff on the campaign and a lot of the other people because like, look, not just because they're a lot of them or our friends, but because they are doing like really good work, but he is the candidate, right? And he has to like lead the campaign. He has to debate. And they are doing these jobs because they know, they love Joe Biden.
They have to live together. They also know that you have to defeat Donald Trump. And this is the most beautiful thing. As we sit here right now, that is the, that is the way to do it. As you elect, the choice is right now, as of today, there will be a conversation in the coming days, is elect Joe Biden or we get Donald Trump. Those are the two choices, right? It's not the choice. A lot of people wanted. It's not a perfect choice, but that, that is the option before us, right? And
so that's why that's why they're doing it. That's why we have done what we have done to try to help Joe Biden, right? And that's why people are so frustrated and have said about this debate, because he did this. He wanted this debate right now. Yep, right? And that, and he had a week of practice and probably should have had to, right? And so it's just, it is, like they, this was a big moment and he did not deliver in a big moment, right? And it's very frustrating. And look, like you said
then, it's a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Like if we get through the convention, and everyone does, and Joe Biden says, I'm not stepping down and there's no other Democrats step up and all the, you know, I've seen a lot of the elected Democrats tonight on TV, which understandable, it's like right after the debate, say like, no, we're sticking with Joe Biden. It's great. If everyone decides, everyone who could run for president decides that they're not, they're not
going to run. They don't want to run. Joe Biden's the guy. Joe Biden decides then like after that convention, of course, we will do everything in our power to elect Joe Biden 100 percent, percent. But like, the best thing Joe Biden did is to propose this debate before the convention and give us a chance now to like rethink this. It is because the threat Donald Trump poses that we have to have this debate right now about whether or not it should be Joe Biden. Do not tell us that because
Donald Trump is a threat, we cannot have this conversation. That is ridiculous. And I think just to be crystal clear about one thing, I did not come away from this debate wondering whether Joe Biden can do the job of president. He can. He has been doing it. He's done a great job of doing it. I came away deeply concerned about his ability to wage the campaign. He needs to wage to defeat Donald Trump. It's an important distance. Yes. I mean, I am not for one second in the camp of
people regurgitating the like horrible attacks from the Trump people. This is about what it takes to run a campaign, which is really, really hard. President is a much harder job. It's a much more important job, but Canada is a different job. And it's primarily a communications job. It's an ability to go out every day and make a case. And it's always important. But when you're running against an authoritarian who could threaten democracy, then like it's not just about being a good candidate.
That is part of the job of being president in this moment right now is making the case for why democracy is the better system. And he has not made that case. So Axios already has some comments from these are House Democrats. They are not. They've given their names. Axios obviously. Of course not. Yeah, this is not on the record. One said I am in a state of shock. The other said, Jamal Bowman is the hero we need right now.
We need him to pull the fire alarm. A couple of that's making the rounds. That one's making the rounds. One female House Democrats said it's time for women to save both these men from their misery. President Whitmer has a strong ring to it. So that's just a sample of some of what we're getting from. I'll just say like I imagine this is true for you guys. I probably got like two dozen tweets tonight from friends in and out of politics. Every single one of them was
as Axios says we a sound. This is not like a political insider like Agitah group think things. Like all my friends from all parts of my life just being like what's happening? People who don't tune into politics. People who don't pay attention. Like there's not a single person who's like it's actually not that bad.
I feel like I want to come back to something you said which is that you said like that the word panic feels strange both like like too big and too small because I think I think the problem right is like what's a little patronizing to say go those Democrats. They're right which I get
well because we are often really like that. We're all yes for sure and I think I think what makes this different is that like it's not a panic in that I think people people are not over reacting and this is a moment where people are reflecting not just on the debate but what led to this moment right and the and the collective sense in which we couldn't make a change in all the conversations
and debates we've been having for a long time. That's one part of it. The second part of it is I am concerned that we spend 48 hours having these this paroxysm of doubt and concern and then did you lie fourth happens Joe Biden does a rally where he is more like how he was at the state
of the union the dynamic in the race doesn't change he's still behind in these swing state polls we don't really see a clear path of how that changes but we're reassured that the debate didn't have as long of an impact as we thought it would then all of a sudden we're marching toward a convention
where we never really reconciled the experience of watching that debate and that's why I think just making sure that what this is is not a panic but a concerted effort to give everybody who wants to protect democracy and defeat Donald Trump the open conversation about the best person to do
that is so important and some people say this conversation only helps Trump yeah it does and no one wants to be having it but our hands was forced but we all watch Trump the 90 minutes that we do so yeah it doesn't let's go to fun let's go to favorite moments yeah one other point I think is worth
making is we had some by the way to be wise is by the way I want you to know something we went we were deep gala's humor by the end of this thing it was we were we were drinking and we were getting through it we went through it from stun silence to gala's humor in about 20 minutes I
liked when we were talking about how many historians said Trump was the worst president that was a good part it was just that's you know yeah by the way Kamala Harris was on TV afterwards Anderson Cooper interviewer I believe she went on msnbc though I haven't seen that yet and
you know she did quite well in the interview and Anderson really pushed her and at one point she did say it was a slow start at least like the vice president acknowledged that and that's you know that's the vice president so the idea that you're gonna be like no everything was fine
you even have the vice you have the president's former communications director you have the vice president like it's just no one thinks it was fine and you know what and I do I think that just telling people to deny what they saw telling people to deny objective reality it's just not
it's just not effective forget about whether it's right or wrong it's just not effective I would be very interested to see how what Biden does at the rally he has in North Carolina tomorrow because a if this was Obama right and this was sort of true after that robin debate is
he makes a self-deprecating joke about it right and then tries to deliver a much better performance like Will Biden do that right yeah I do have there there's one upside to this debate he will not be attacked tomorrow it's over for performance enhancing drugs so he has he is
put that right it's too rest so for lining that's the very people there was there were people I'm pausing and trying to feed Joe Biden out of all through the television yeah this is why you don't do time release this is why you got it you got it you got it you're up all night
just it kicked in right it kicked in at the party right that was the now and for Joe Biden to be up all night we did have a spirited debate about golf games yeah yeah caps that was wild that was it but all of this stuff is even more frustrating because it goes to
show like how vulnerable Trump is like the guy was an incoherent mess he was talking about he was like a little I would say the fifth we were talking about the first 15 20 minutes I would say like Trump was the best in the first 15 minutes yeah and the Trump really declined to
throughout the debate Biden got him upset and then try Trump became more of the Trump we know one of the most obvious differences between watching the first debate four years ago in the first debate now is something has happened to Joe Biden's voice that has made it softer more frail and has led him to cough a lot yeah and again I know I'm talking optics and optics doesn't matter when you're doing the job of president but it matters a lot as a candidate and it just makes it hard for him
to get his point across and to get these lines out and to string together arguments over the course of two minutes in a way that is compelling or even it times like fully understandable I mean we should note I mean yet your correction draw scenarios that his voice has changed he did also it
came out that he had a cold as he had it since January well I mean like he sounded worse yeah yeah and the first like it sounded like he he had to cough and he could not cough in the first 15 minutes yeah now why his campaign did not put out the fact that he had a cold in advance of that
well I just say so you know what the the me and Tommy and love it we went to the fundraiser in LA with president Obama and Jimmy Kimmel and Biden was very much like he was tonight at that fundraiser that was also after he had flown from the G7 in Italy they seemed to be hours to LA understand
and that was his second trip to Europe in in the same week so we talked it up as like yeah that was a pretty bad performance he is pretty tired they should let the guy sleep hopefully they'll have him sleep and and and prep for this debate and by the way everyone else in the crowd saw that
too which is why the whole like oh deceptively edited clip of Biden freezing he wasn't actually freezing in that moment but the rest of the thing was bad I just also he was tired and I thought he would be arrested tonight I hoped he would be arrested tonight I look and by the way we have
tried like we saw him at the state of the union where he delivered we did it's also like oh okay he had a cold and and and his voices his gravely and not as strong as he used to be that doesn't explain why halfway through an answer about abortion he pivoted to a different answer about
immigration that doesn't explain why he wasn't able to push back on Donald Trump the way the classic debate move you pivoted from your most strongest issue to your weakest issue mid sentence did dumb Trump bring up the attack no you got to bring up the attack yourself that's it's you know
then he can't do it that you bring it up yourself you see what I'm saying it's a he he he got ready to test forty tests he clearly got rattled by his performance like he knew oh for you can and that he knew that he messed up that first question and I know because we we've
prep cancer debates before you tell him the first ten minutes matter more than anything else and he knew he knew he messed that up and he got in his head and because he had he clearly had an answer on abortion he had an answer on this attack that he knew Trump was going to make about this
woman who was killed and he just just just you know he combined him he can combine him yeah you also practice though like in debate prep I'm sure you say to him over and over again sir your face is going to be visible through the duration of the debate every time Donald Trump
speaks they're going to be looking at you too so you have to be mindful of how you look smiling laughing right he did a great job of that in 2020 it was so funny about this a disaster this time you know it yeah I mean you know like you know the staff prep them on that you know they
are gazing you can do the laugh you can cry because we watched the we all rewatched the first 2020 debate earlier this week and Trump did a terrible job of that in the first of a sweaty and sweaty sweat angry smuddered himself and Biden that whole he did that's what he nailed
in that debate is he stared at that camera the whole time every time Trump said something crazy Biden gave it that classic Biden smile yeah and he did the exact opposite of that so I think now we're getting to the point in the pod where I'll saying the same thing over and over again and
won a killer so just right exactly does it do we have any final thoughts yeah I don't I actually don't have I we just watched the debate and I think we're all feeling a bit gobsmacked and I think that's a feeling to trust for a bit but I'm not gonna go back to my hotel room and watch
you one more time before I go to bed oh you really yeah Jesus Christ I'm gonna take yourself I'm gonna take the same Xanax they gave Joe Biden before the debate and knock myself the fuck out but I think a bunch of yeah right no but but I feel like the two texts I'm getting from a lot of
people and I'm sure is a shared experience with some combination and what do we do and are we doomed was like I feel like a lot of people are saying that and what do we do take it one step at a time we all just watch that we all saw it nobody knows what Joe Biden's gonna do you saw
uh uh uh Kamala Harris is uh doing fucking improv with Anderson Cooper Gavin Newsom doesn't know what took everybody's figuring this out so I think everybody I think just being honest about what we saw is the first step and everybody uh giving being generous with each other in knowing that everyone
inside of this big democratic coalition wants to defeat Donald Trump we just may not over the next couple of days or weeks agree on the best way to do it that's for a second are we doomed we're not doomed we're not doomed until the election is over and a lot can change between now and then
nobody knows what's gonna happen and let's just take it one step at a time that's that's my my one caution here yeah I like I'm not gonna pretend tonight wasn't anything but terrible the next few days will probably be worse because what tends to happen is the the negative feelings about a
debate performance like this turn into articles which get shared around it compounds and the spin gets worse and worse and it becomes a bit of a spiral but the fact is we have gotten like a couple months is a lifetime in politics I'm not saying that to like spin for Joe Biden it's just
an objective fact there was a fucking insurrection against the capital that no one's talking about anymore somehow so you know up the lock and change between now and election day and a lock and change between now and the convention and it is what it is but this weekend's gonna suck we got
a shutdown the idea to article pipeline that is the fucking problem per dem source live tracking of the debate show that Trump support tanked when he said he wouldn't accept the results of the election again not surprising there was some good responses for Biden from some Midwest swing
voters take that for what you will and then Trump's January 6 and row responses were also popular yes of course also Biden just took a few questions from the pool they asked him how he did tonight he said I think we did well they on calls for him to drop out whether he has any
concerns about his performance no it's hard to debate a liar the New York Times pointed out he lied 26 times on whether he's sick I have a sore throat pool was then quickly ushered out this Biden going to that watch event by taking his questions is the first steps you do to address a
bad debate performance like this signal that they know and that will see a rally tomorrow there's the next 48 hours are going to be fascinating about how everyone else in the party responds and what Biden does but it is resource reminding we're going to hear this from everyone
why doesn't the DNC go to Biden and tell them there this is going to be Joe Biden's decision yep no one is going to make him do it no Democrat is going to announce that they're jumping in the race because you can't really do that and this is going to be a decision for the president to make yep
and you can counsel them on it people can counsel them privately publicly whatever it may be it says decision so all right wish we had a wish we had a more hope hey one last question what gives you hope by the way but listen I we were the as the debate was winding down and we're all
kind of like our eyes are kind of bleeding from the side like kind of trying to find different kinds of alcohol to put together I looked around we're in this room we're watching it together we're doing our best to laugh through it and I just like we had a good time we've gummy bears we tried
our best we had a very nice wine and beer and we made the best of it we're all great team here we're all gonna get through it together hey back everyone hug a lib this weekend hug a lib this weekend did you say we're stronger together we're sure oh all right everyone we will
we'll talk to you tomorrow night in Boston why bye everyone if you want to get ad free episodes exclusive content and more consider joining our friends of the pod subscription community at crick-a-dot-com slash friends and if you're already
doom scrolling don't forget to follow us at pod save america on instagram twitter and youtube for access to full episodes bonus content and more plus if you're as opinionated as we are consider dropping us a review pod save america is a crooked media production our show is produced
by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Ferris Safari Reed Churland is our executive producer the show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglund in Charlotte Landis
writing support by Hallie Keifer Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming Matt DeGroat is our head of production Andy Taft is our executive assistant thanks to our digital team Elijah Cohn Hayley Jones Mia Kellman David Tolls Kiro Pellevive and Molly Lobelle