Play in a Time of Crisis

Hello everyone, this is the Playwork Podcast. I'm Erin. If you know anything about playwork or have made a new friend in the playwork community in the last few years, it's probably because of Morgan. And Susanna. Morgan Leichter-Saxby, co-host of this show, and playworkers Susanna Law, are the co-founders of Pop Up Adventure Play. Pop-up Adventure Play provides in-person and online support for anyone interested in playwork or adventure playgrounds. They've been doing it since 2010.

Morgan and Susanna, among so many other things, are like playwork matchmakers. I know I've met dozens of people through them. Basically anyone you hear on this podcast came through Pop-Up Adventure Play in some kind of way. at some point in their career and they're all doing something amazing. a welcoming gateway into this world, whether you want to have a pop-up at your next block party when we can be together again.

Build out a program in your school or museum or park or arts organization, or just dig deeper into these ideas on your own to develop your own practice or understanding through their Playwork or Development Program. PopUpadventureplay.org has something for you. For me, for everyone. Today, we get to hear Morgan and Susanna talk to each other about play on a level that we all aspire to. Specifically, play in a crisis. How do we play as adults? What does that look like?

Today's episode is produced by Susanna Law. Without further ado, Morgan and Susanna. You're here with me, Susanna Law, and the lovely Morgan Light the Sexby. Thank you. Susanna lives in Manchester in the UK and I'm based in Vermont. Thank you for joining us for this playful conversation.

So you wanted to talk about play in a time of crisis? Yeah, play in a time of adverse circumstances, maybe. Um maybe it's better framed. Um Crisis feels very end of the world y, even though I know Many people feel like this might be the end of the world. Um, I don't think it is. I think as with lots of Um lots of difficult situations. It feels like the end of the world, but I think that this too will pass. But I think that it's worth talking about because often We don't.

Yeah. Yeah. Or we talk about we talk about a thing that's happening from a thousand different angles, like all of them worrying and even we often forget to talk about play. So what's interesting about this is that Actually, um, in terms of crises, there's been a lot of different ones over time, and this isn't the first. It's never gonna be the last. I think we wanted to spend some time talking about that and how it affects play.

Yeah, absolutely. We can sort of look back through history. Uh not that children's history or children's history of play is necessarily that well documented, but still we can look at what we've got. and see that kids have been finding ways to play in all sorts of horrifying circumstances. And the the ways in which like that those changes in their life structure or the worries or the very real

struggles, whatever's happening, the way that all of that has of of manifesting in their play is like real and fascinating. And they keep doing it. They they keep, whenever possible, finding a way to be doing it. I find it really interesting, um, um uh thinking from from what you've just said that a lot of the children's play stuff hasn't been documented and but they've always been going through one crisis or another.

No, it's really it's really true. And there is evidence of children playing under slavery, playing in the concentration camp. playing in like the like the worst circumstances that we can imagine. And and I think there's sometimes a tension among historians and and that I feel in myself too when I'm doing research, because I think on the one hand, people can look at evidence of play in these horrifying circumstances. Um and say, well I guess they weren't that bad if kids were still playing.

And that's not what we're saying. Like um we're instead saying yes, those circumstances

are that bad. Yes, it's that bad. And kids are still finding ways to play. And that that is remarkable. And that like human strength and resilience is amazing. Some folks won't be able to uh understand concentration camps or war, but closer to home crises um occur when families break up or when children are are sick or when a family member dies, I think that we forget sometimes that those are also awful things that everybody has to go through and actually much more approachable.

Um, when we look at things like the coronavirus right now, it's a massive like it is one of the biggest issues that the world has had to deal with as a whole, but Death is also a thing that unites all of us in many ways. We definitely all have to talk about stuff like this sometimes, but because it makes us adults feel uncomfortable, we generally don't. No, I think that's really true. I mean what

That made me think about how these themes these themes have been present in children's play all along, right? Like long before long before this, kids have been interested in death in good and evil and power and pain and all of it, right? They've been interested in a whole of human experience. And in more comfortable times, adults still try and repress those themes.

Um and now I think Like when that stuff is coming up, when kids are playing really explicitly with ideas about contagen or imprisonment or whatever it is that's coming up or fear, any of that. Um, it can be hard to to watch, right? It can be hard to watch like the difficulties of this world that we wish we could protect children from instead appear in their play.

Yeah. But I think the fact that they've been doing it all along, that they are doing it now, like they were they've been practicing. Kids who had the chance to play as as they wanted before now, were probably much better prepared than most of the rest of us. Well yeah, I fully agree. The the sheer fact of it is that children have been left out of most conversations all of this time, but they still manage to find a way to process the terrible information that we're hiding from them.

And a lot of them actually know a lot about the coronavirus just simply because it's you can't escape it. It's on every news channel. It's even on children's T V programs now. You can't escape the coronavirus uh and they've got so much more information, but they still process it in exactly the same way. They just play and um that play changes, it evolves, sometimes uh sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes

they um they come up with novel ideas, sometimes they just like succumb to, you know, the virus or what have you. But they still play and they work away through it and then somehow come out of it feeling better.

And I think that it's something that we adults need to really look at for ourselves. Clearly we're not playing as much or as needed um for our own lives in a way that can help us process Any crisis. Um I wonder if it's because, you know, we've been told all uh years that playing is for children. No, stop doing that. You're a grown up. You can't play. How dare you it looks so silly. Stop it. You're not a child. Don't play. It is really important to find a way to play and process all of this.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that I think that some of the ways that I see adults try and process this stuff, they wouldn't necessarily think of as play. You know, it would be like talking with a friend until you both laugh and feel better. Right? Or it might be like I don't know, writing an angry letter that afterwards you feel better, whatever it might be. I've been reading a lot of stuff uh that other adults have been doing and it's been quite interesting.

A lot of adults are baking because you know that's something that you can control and also a delicious outcome. Um there's a lot of adults who are going for long walks. Adults that never previously went on long walks are going on long walks, so that's interesting. A lot of um families are walking together, which is really great. I think that a lot of folks

um, who are caring for kids. And like especially I know or I have been hearing from parents who either were a primary caregiver before and are now like sort of overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of it, like unrelieved. Um and parents who weren't the primary caregiver before and are now like spending unprecedented amounts of time with their kids. Yeah. And everyone seems a bit frazzled. Yeah. Um, to say the least, which makes sense. It's it's a lot. It's a lot. All of this is a lot.

And and there's something too, I think, that can be really confronting about spending that much time with with the people that you live with, or especially with family, like whatever your age and whatever your family makeup. It gets confronting fast a lot of the time. Yeah. However we come out of this, um, we're all gonna learn something about ourselves and about each other.

There's a lot of people who are now understanding and seeing the value of spending time outside, which is fantastic. I've just seen so many families like walking together. um, just in the garden, just hanging out together, exploring the woods together. It's it's wonderful that people are realizing how great that is. And how much it's beneficial it is for them as a family. Um whereas like before coronavirus

I wouldn't see families outside like this. N no. Like we'd have to fight to make p families go outside and um now people are actually um actively arguing about like, no, I need to go outside today. Like, well, you never needed to in the past. What's changed now is because you got told that you're not allowed. Is that what it is? Is are you

Are you that classic kid of like don't press the red button? Is that what it is? It's like all of these naughty children who have been told that they can't go outside and suddenly everybody wants to go. Is that what it is? Well, I mean I think the more rules you make the more that everybody turns into a naughty child. Yep. Like we're all like we're all anti authoritarian eventually. You know?

But like then that like then that circles back round though, because we spend so many of our days, like so many hours of our days. Telling our children what they can and can't do, why is it suddenly okay for us to rebel against the rules that we've been given that are actually to help mankind get over a uh a pandemic?

Next up is Susanna Law, probably hiding in a cupboard, talking about one of her favorite ways to play. Sometimes I draw it. It's not very good drawing. I don't even think of it as drawing sometimes. In my head I just think I want to make a mark on a piece of paper. I take a white sheet of anything really, take a black pen, always the same type of black pen, and I make a mark. I don't always have an end product in mind. Sometimes I just want to explore a line, a shape, a feeling.

Sometimes I want to repeat patterns, sometimes I want to draw a thing. I don't know how to draw many things. So sometimes it's quite frustrating. But all the time, making a mark on a piece of paper is just something I do. Something that I'm compelled to do without really thinking about it. I just draw. Or maybe it's doodling. Maybe it's mark making. Maybe it's just playing. Sometimes I'm really compelled and I'll do it for hours and hours and hours without looking at the end. 감사합니다.

Makes a mark and then another and another and then another pen joins in and then there's color And then it fills the sheet and then it has to be on another sheet. And then I'd keep going and going and the shapes change and evolve and take over my life for a few hours. And then I look up and it's done. Sometimes it's just one shape on a piece of paper right in the middle for no real reason but once it's done I feel complete. I feel content. I feel like I've done something.

Maybe this is my play. Actually no. I think this is my play. Ha ha ha. No, I'm sure this is one of the ways that I love to play. And I think they'll keep on doing it until. that compulsion leaves me. This is definitely one of the ways that I play.

There's been talk of educational reform. Have you heard, Moggin? What have you been hearing? Well, um there's been a few like articles here and there about how the um how this lockdown of various countries has highlighted um the need for more play in childhood. Well, yeah. A lot of parents knew in theory what their kids' day looked like. Mm. Um, and it talked to the teachers and I mean I don't I don't mean to imply that they were not involved.

But It's ridiculous like to like actually structure a especially a younger child's day so tightly with such ridiculous expectations. I think it's only when some parents were put in the position of needing to enforce these rules and these structures that they realized how absurd it had gotten and how like completely inappropriate and like detrimental to a lot of children. Well the educational reforms that I'm seeing that are being proposed uh

Like putting it under the guise of well being and prioritizing the child's well being over, you know, maths. And um As if those like as if those two concerns were head to head. As if like happier kids aren't better at maths. Ha ha. So the educational reforms have been interesting, focusing on wellbeing and then as part of that wellbeing uh idea that like children need to play, and it's been very well highlighted in the last

at least the last three weeks in the UK'cause that's how long we've been locked down. And then um for other uh places in other countries as well that um it's been clear to parents, if not anybody else, that children are happy when they are able to take control of aspects of their lives like how they play, when they play, what they want to play. And um, yeah, okay. Some folks will be fitting in reading and small amounts of English and math and stuff throughout their day, but I know

that um a lot of parents are seeing that the children are enjoying their time when they're able to control it themselves and and actually improving their own well being because of that play that they're able to engage in. And Surprise, surprise, the side um benefit of that play is that the parent can take a step back and have a cup of tea. Go and have a coffee while the kid does the thing that they want to do, you know?

Um, okay, some of the kids want you to play as well, but like that kind of playing is different, you know, from when you're trying to do a science experiment with the baffling instructions that it came in the box. You know, it's a little bit different um when you look at um what we adults deem worthy of uh education and what children are actually learning when they're when they're doing things their own way.

So how do we transition this? I don't know,'cause it got really dark. It did. We didn't mean it to. But I but but maybe that's okay,'cause like I feel like part of this, part of what we've been saying underneath all of this, is that Part of what we've been saying all along in this conversation is that there are times when things feel very dark.

when conversations go a bit dark, or at least darker than you intended, and when following the thread of what interests you can take you to some surprising places. And that sometimes those places are uncomfortable. And that that's okay. The other thing that I've been hearing through all of this is that question of control. Like what can we control? And for children as well as for parents, that often loops bite right back around to play.

Whether or not it is an activity that we necessarily would call play, um, what gives us that feeling of a little time and place where we get to say what we do and how long we do it for and why?

I think those are some wonderful concluding thoughts. And I mean, like, throughout all of this and I know for myself, if not for anybody else, that if I if I don't spend some time in um activities that I want to do and I can control and um And do it in the way that I want to, i.e., play. I'm never gonna get through this. I'm just gonna be in puddles of tears all day long. scrolling down news that doesn't seem to finish about how many people are dying all the time.

Like if I don't play, uh like it's not gonna be good for my well being. It's not gonna be um possible for me to care for the people that I am currently caring for because I'm not being um well looked after myself and um yeah I won't come out of this in a good way. And I know that it's really important to look after myself. Otherwise there won't I won't be able to look after anybody else. So, yeah. we can't emphasize enough how much everybody needs to play right now. Um, it's therapeutic. It is.

um a break in the day. It is so many wonderful things, but it's so very important for you, the adult, and then throw in a couple of thousand words more about why it's important for children. It's just We just have to do it. Yeah. I I I also just wanna say something on on that, even though those are better concluding thoughts. But well no, it's that

Like everything that that you just said that frames play as part of like essential self-care, basically. Like that's one thing that I was hearing in that, um, is beautiful and true. And some of the ways in which this stuff has been coming up for me. Um goes back to that question that we've we've talked about a few times, about like playworking yourself.

So sometimes for me that is about like, Morgan, you seem angry. Have you had a snack? Or or like, Morgan, maybe you should go run around outside for a minute. Or like, yeah, have you have you done something for fun lately? Um and sometimes Especially in harder times. Um, it comes f it it comes in in terms of cutting myself slack when I've like got really angry on the computer and run outside and kicked something, like for a while.

Or like it's it's sort of redirecting those moments when like I can't be reasonable and I can't think about play and making it okay to like have those feelings somewhere safe. Now it's time to hear a little bit from Morgan and her journey into play. When I think about my own play, I usually start by feeling bad about it. I think about how I don't do enough of it. Um I think about how I'm a hypocrite for telling other people that play is important all the time.

And sometimes I think then about the different things I do that might be play. I think about them one at a time and how I'm not very good at them. Um, I think about the baking disasters that I've had lately. Um, the art that I've meant to make or tried to make and then got really frustrated by. Or I think about how

Different things I love doing that might be play, but that I've like failed them in some way. Um, I feel that way about fiction writing sometimes. I love doing it and I don't do it and I hate myself for not doing it. Which doesn't create an environment in which I want to do it. The idea of my own play is a little bit complicated. But sometimes sometimes this feeling just like sneaks up on me and I realize that I'm enjoying myself. That um That apart from an activity.

I've somehow got to or closer to that like playful state of mind, right? When you're or when I'm like relaxed in my body and my brain goes a little bit quiet and I'm like tuned into what's happening and just enjoying myself. Just doing a thing and not thinking about it too hard, and afterwards like feeling tired in that good way. Like ready for whatever's next.

And within that, what's been played for me most often, especially, you know, in all the hard times now, has been just going into the woods and doing nothing at all very quietly. So there's a stream at the bottom of my garden and woods all around. We're in this little cabin out in the middle of nowhere. Um I don't know the names of the trees or any of the birds, but I can hear them.

And sometimes my cats will come for a walk with me and then when I lay down the they'll like, you know, walk on me or jump over me or just like hang out. Often we'll just like hang out there together. Um when it was really cold I would do this too, but I would wear my snow pants. And one of my favorite things to do, especially here in Vermont where Often like the sun is really warm, even when the air is cold. One of my favorite things to do is bundle up really warm and go into the woods.

and find some nice little spot and just lie down and bake myself like a frozen burrito. And it feels great. Thank you. Even though it feels great, I didn't think about that at first um when asked to to talk about my play. It seemed like it didn't count, maybe, um, and that I should have something more like. I don't know, impressive or tangible or whatever.

But then I thought about it and if I saw another kid do that, right? Like if I worked on a site and a kid came in and every time that they could They went out and found a nice spot and just lay in the sunshine, I would think good for you, kid. That looks great. And it is. This has been so nice. I love you. We'll be back soon. Bye! Goodbye! Thank you, Susanna, for producing this episode. For more of what they do, visit popupadventureplay.org.

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