Ep64 - Ava DuVernay / "A Wrinkle in Time"

gonna dive right in. We have Ava Daverna here today. I'm back. You're back. You actually are the first return guests. Yes, you get that distinction this year. Um, I'm want to pull up my questions here. Movies called Wrinkle in Time. You've probably seen the marketing everywhere because it's one of those movies that's uh just larger than life. It's a Disney movie. It's everywhere. And uh, first of all, how are you feeling? I mean, do you have have you

had an opportunity to have perspective on everything? Are you still kind of like close to it and not? I think so? I mean, you know, I made a kids movie and um, you know it's what I wanted it to be. Um, you know, the industry doesn't make movies like this anymore, like those youth fantasies like Never Ending Story Escaped, Witch Mountain, Page Master, like all these things. Is that you know, we're just so cool when we

were younger. That allows a bit of spectacle for a kid to enter into and learn a little about themselves. And uh so yeah that's what I made. You know, I love what we did, and it was just a beautiful time making it. So yeah, I mean that's the perspective I have. Yeah, well, I want to talk about

that you talked about. You know, I saw it last night, and at the beginning you spoke about, you know, wanting to kind of go into a child's mind, essentially go back in and you know, what's the movie you would have wanted to see. So something that I thought about was, you know, it's obviously very different from your other movies. So what kind of new creative muscles did you exercise

as a storyteller on this one? Yeah, I mean I was still able to focus on the things that meant something to me, like, um, it's just a kind of equality and parody and you know, the way that we treat each other in the society, but just just to do that for a much younger audience, Like I don't see this as being very different from my intention in the film Some thirteen or Queen Sugar, the story that I want to tell, but this is just too a

younger audience. Um. And so it was able to kind of put a lot of that in the mix and the story. UM. But I think what I was able to exercise in myself was just getting in touch with the kid in me, which is something that especially with thirteen,

it was a hard time for me. Making it did damage to me, you know it well, because it was you know, watching thousands of hours, yeah, thousands of hours of racist, violent footage, you know, really interrogating the systems that we live under and that we don't even aren't even conscious of the ways that we oppressed each other

and um. And so it was personal, it was emotional, it was dramatic to make it, um and to construct all of that and steep myself into so like you know, reggling time was a bit of self care and that and then to do that, I had to tap into something that wasn't hardened and it wasn't cynical. Um, it was childlike and it was joyful. And you know, I think, you know, it's uh, it's just so critical and cynical that I find myself even being in this era that

we're living in. You know, I go online looking for the worst. What do you say today? You know what I mean, what you tweets? And it's like, you know, I could have gone down that whole dark you know, I was mentioned and I was talking to Gambaldatoro about the same thing. It's like, sometimes art can help you guide you through turbulent times, especially for the artists who's just like super sensitive. We're all sensitive, but it hits me hard and and so yeah, this film saved me

in that way a lot. Yeah under the weather, you got some No, my voice is just deep and scratched like this. No, no, no, it sounds like maybe you've been I was talking holler and a lot, talking a lot maybe. Uh. You know, a lot has been made about the budget of the film, first hundred million dollar movie made by a woman of color. Those Uh, that

fanfare is great, obviously, glass ceilings, et cetera. I'm just curious if you get tired of hearing it's like that first, this first that I don't we tired of hearing it because I know that's something that a lot of people celebrate. I do, um, you know, regret that it's in a context of such I don't know, fanfare, or in a context of it being a good thing when it's really pretty tragic that it's two thousand and eighteen and these

firsts are happening. You know, I don't take it as a mantle of you know, proud distinction, and I'm the first person, first woman of color in two thousand, seventeen and eighteen, to make a film at this price point, or to win Sundance or to get the Globe nominating, you know, or whatever they are, because it really means we haven't done this in decades and decades and decades before that, even though that they were women who were

completely capable, ready and deserving of it. And so it's something that Hollywood does where it's trumpets its first without really acknowledging that the first means that there was a lot of neglect that went into that. And so that's what I hear when I'm when I'm introduced. Know, if I walk out on the stage and it's first this and first that, and it's applause for it. It's kind

of like, golly uh, there's a disconnect there for me. Um. And yet I know it makes it makes people proud who are on the other side of it, who are less privileged, because it means that you know that first has been done away with and now a door might be open for me though, you know, whether it's me or Perry Jenkins or de Rease or Jordan Peel or or or um. You know, Nicky Carroll's about to make the next hundredmillion dollars from it's Disney with mulan or Ryan.

You know, if you can name everyone that's doing something new on two hands, that's not change. You know, that's that's a trend. That's a moment, and it's a beautiful one, but it's not a changing of systems. And that's like that's what's needed. And so it all has to start somewhere. Maybe this is the start. But it's not like we haven't had these moments before. So the question is do we let it be a moment or do we let it become the way we do business? And um, it's

still a question. I had a question later I'll just jump to because we're this is kind of in that area, you know, after Selma and the Oscar is So White. That was a big driving point for that, uh, And so I wanted to just ask you how you feel about how far we've come, how far we have to go? And I guess you just kind of answered that question just in terms of the awards sphere as well. But yeah, yeah,

I mean, it's it's it's it's it's um. You know, we know like in the awards circuit in the season, uh, that that their ebbs and flows. So it's just becomes a question of, you know, is the studio system and is the independent kind of ecosystem supporting these stories? You know,

it's it's so many levels. It's production, it's studio executives, it's the agencies, it's you know what I mean, it's it's it's it's the uh, it's the all those layers to even get to a place where you can start to look at the complexion and the tenor of the academy. So it's it's systemic. That's why, you know, when the academy is kind of you know being uh, you criticized so heavily. There's something to look at there with the makeup,

but it's also disingenuous to say it's the only thing wrong. Yeah, symptomatic. I mean, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It has many many arms. As Sponster, this movie wrinkling time, very colorful, very psychedelic in a way. Actually some I heard a guy behind me say you should have popped an edible before he went. But it made it an interesting trip. But I wanted to talk about what what inspired the visual look of the film, in the effects and all of that. Just tell me about that. Yeah, I was

just thinking of a feminization of fantasy. You know, look at the Avatar or a Lord of the Rings, and these are big fantasies that are kind of not kind of,

but are through a male gaze. I love those films, uh, And I wondered what it would look like to play with those worlds and those those those people and um, those creatures through the eyes of a woman who's as I did, saying, I want to make this film like a girl, the girl in me, you know, I love be dazzled eyebrows and hair and gowns, and played with that and you know, big color and uh, talking flowers and how would they move and what does the creature

look like? And you know, I wanted to look like a leaf and because you know, just just um, you know, just all of the touches that felt maybe more maternal or more feminine. Um, you know, as you go through the story of a girl, I think the question is, you know, you know, people, audiences, critics, whatever, you have been trained to see films in a certain way. Um, you know, more masculine, male tropes, narrative troopes. You know. I heard someone said, I wish there was some more action.

I wish there were Well, this is about the heart of a girl, so the first thirty minutes you're gonna get to know her. You sit down and you're gotta get to know this black girl and her issues and uh and so those rhythms and that layering, it's kind of like a different um, a bit of a different vocabulary. UM. So I just wanted to attach visuals to it that felt like they were married to that pace and that kind of what I was trying to do is a more lyrical approach to a book that people told me

straight up as unadaptable. This book is unadaptable. There's been a movie before that tried to be faithful to it. Um that Madelon Langle even said you didn't like Um, that didn't do a lot for the whole this is adaptable training and uh and so it really was about gosh, okay, this is a kid's book and they say it's unadaptable. But Disney is saying I can make the girl girl of color? Is that worth doing? And for me the answer was overwhelmingly yes. If there was a risk, you know,

because it's not a risk. It's for kids. You know, I think people, like I said, I think people think it's gonna be so much in space, you know, is that kids over at It's like it's a kids movie. God just let let the children have a little fun. Yeah. Absolutely. On that question of design and inspiring the look, you know with the costumes and stuff, was that pure imagination or did you what kind of research was involved? If

anything kind of developed that. I found this amazing brother name Buckle Delgado, and uh, he and I just went down the rabbit hole with Kim Kimbell who's the hair designer, and the three of us there him with thick Spattish accent and me and her from South Central and Compton talking about hair and makeup and it was too much fun.

But really the idea was to take from cultures all over the world, so you'll see Latin American references and African references and Asian references, and the costumes, particularly when Mindy k you know, we're looking from hair from ancient Egypt and we're looking at you know, uh um, you know, traditional Mayan dress and it's just so fun to see

can we do a collision of cultures? And that wasn't Mindy's thing, And then with each missus there was a different idea, you know, of all of Oprah's costumes are very much different um iterations of armor, the whole warrior vibe, and then Reese's you know always you know, it's very flower like, just kind of playing with the durability of flowers but also the beauty of them. So all those cool design I do is that people don't even want to hear about. You know what I love to hear

about here about talking about is GARYT. Guillermo. I've gotten like six different shape of water talks and I just sitting back, I am moderated one, and I got hooked on him and I just go and sit in the back and sneak out because he talks about the craft. It's a way that's so intoxicating. Um, this is what we love talking about. Yeah, okay, good, but this is

the place totally. I want to talk about Oprah's hair actually in that one big I do, I do what Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of afro futurism, you know, in in in that approach to her hair. I love this whole embrace of I feel futures futurism in cinema we see a lot, and we've seen a lot in literature, which I grew up with, and a lot of you know, fine arts. We have fine a lot of black fine artists around the world. They're doing interesting things, certainly music

to Neil Mna just dropping this incredible thing. And Prince was an afro futurist. Um. But of course Ryan and in uh with Black Panther and so in this it was really good idea of like this afro futuristic taking the idea of freaking aesthetic that it had been somewhat um um you know, uh Damford and smothered by colonization, slavery and saying, what what would that have matured it

into it that have been allowed to run free? And what does it look like in the future, And particularly because you don't see characters like that, you know, black women, you know, elders, you know, queen like black women in sci fi and so what does she look like? Um, you know, I was looking at references trying to find things, and uh, you know when we were first I was looking for women of color and sci fi and you know, I found like Whoopi Goldberg in Star Trek episodes where

she was you know, she was. You know, it's it's hard to find them. And that's you know, two decades ago. So to really think about that and to convince Opra to wear blonde hair, which was not a stretch, I said, I'd like to put you in a something beyond say ish. She said, of course you do, and yes, yes, And then you know Reese in her red hair and just pull with all the toys that you get when you make a movie like this. Yeah, all that tactile stuff is great. And Oprah's big white hair and that would

kind of gave me like a future Frederick Douglas vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I take it. That's a good reference. Um, let's talk about storm Read, your lead. This uh young actress. She seems to have a lot of poise on the screen. And I just you know, you worked with her previously, but just talk about working with her and tapping her for this role. And they say, never worked with kids,

never work on water, never work with animals. So you work with kids here, so well, yeah, but when you have storm Read, you know you're working with a girl who's really of course she's aptly named. Um you know she we the whole thing hug hung on finding the right mag and uh. And so for me, you know, working with her was similar working with David O Yellow in Selma and just their approach, Um, you know, very holistic approach to the work. Some actress come in and

they it's like jazz. They just want to kind of feel it in the moment. Um, I'm actually really study and kind of delve deep. David is like that. Storm is like that. Um. You know, one day she came up to me. It only happened once, and she said it was she did great work that day. She came up to me afterward and like tears tears in her eyes and said, I hate to ask you this, but that whole day was no good. I was like, what do you mean. She's like, I wasn't there. I wasn't

I wasn't feeling it. I was I wasn't telling the truth. I was pretending. And uh, it's a thirteen year old girl. And I said, it's the first day you felt like that because and she's like yeah, she said, I think when you go back and look at it, you'll see. And I did and she was right. And so we went back and we did it again. And and that's a thirteen year old girl was really in tune with you know, the special talent that she has inside of her.

So she's a really really beautiful girl. I don't have children by choice, you know, my films are my children and so um so I've never been like as close to a child than my own niece as I have the Storm and it's been a real gift to me. Uh a little just to venture out a little bit. Something I've actually wanted to ask you for a minute is, um, you know, you're you're very distinctly a star. Your voice, your personality. Uh, you you are you are this public

facing icon, I think at this point. But you come from a world you make a face, you don't think, so that's my my perspective on Twitter. But just you know, you're you're Lord. I think you're larger than life and uh and I think that's a good thing. And but you come from the world of journalism, PR documentaries, kind of behind the scenes, out of the spotlight rolls. So I'm just curious if if this stage of your career

has felt daunting at all to you. With that in mind, I think probably not, because I don't think of it that way. I don't. I don't. I don't feel it like that. Um So, no, I do. I do know that, you know, like when something like the La Times they went Disney happens, when there was a little kur fruffled

are about critics and and all that stuff. Um, I do feel like in those moments, it's nice to have a platform to be able to say something when something needs to be said on my own heart and things that I believe in, to have the privilege of having a microphone in front of me sometimes to be able

to say things. Sometimes you get into positions where you're like, uh, you know, probably better if I didn't say anything, But you've got a microphone in front of you and or you have a platform, and you feel like sell out for not saying something to your own self, you know. Um, so sometimes those are the times where I feel like wish, I wish I might be didn't have a mic in front of me, because then I'd be safer. Um. But but now I don't think about it too much or

in a bad way. You wake up feeling a responsibility every day is that to do? No? No, No, It's just like in some intense time, you feel like usually sometimes you're on the red carpet, or sometimes people are tweeting you what do you think? And then you know or um, you know, people were asking or interview requests come in and you're like, do I have to speak to everything? And the answer is no, thank you for

speaking to us, thank you for speaking with us. But but but yeah, so that that gets a little tricky sometimes, but overall, you know, just a Girlston's like everybody else. I feel like you mentioned Black Panther. I feel like we should talk about Black Panther. I mean, the movie is crushing it and you just saw the news about the second weekend, it's gonna be one o eight. What do you think about this moment? He's my um, dear dear, dear,

dear friend from long before. Yes, we edited across from each other, but before then, I mean just we've been friends for a while. Was at his wedding. Um, I love him and loves Zincy, his wife, and you know, it just makes me it's like it's happening to a

family member. UM. So I think of him with it, and I think of then you'll get to do and all the power that he has now that it's with a really really good brother, a really good person to um, you know who deserves to have if you're gonna give anyone that kind of power and influence and write your own ticket, do whatever you want. If I was anyone I could have chosen for it to go to, I would have chosen him. So us me happy, happy. We had him on the show just last week. We've actually

got a couple of your friends. We've got David next week. So yeah for Gringo. So yeah, it's a big, big a friends reunion here on the show. Lady Good But yeah, Black Panther, I mean, it's it's such a cultural moment, pop cultural moment even, and it's uh, you know, seeing you hyping it for your friend and for yourn't even help myself. Disney was like, you're good, you need any materials assets? I was like, huh, maybe, like do you want some extra social media tools? I was like, huh,

They're like what you're talking about so much? I was like, I didn't even realize how much I was tweeting about it because every time I see something, i'd be I mean, this has been for months. I've been on fire for it, so anyway, and then when they said that, I was like, wait a minute, I'm not gonna be used for you know, they weren't saying that, but it was kind of you know, I guess this is how you feel. People thought Disney was making me do it. I realized, but I guess,

but I just was excited and I am. I mean, it's like, yeah, it's great. Could I just you know, you were originally attached to that movie briefly. What what didn't work for you on that, Well, what didn't work for me is what worked for me was recalent time. You know, that seems about the more opportunity, you know, I wanted to tell a story of this girl with glasses and curly hair who understakable yeah, who moves to

you know. We we were able to move the story to South Control Away, which is not for where where I grew up. Curl doesn't feel actually special, but ends up being very special and and uh, you know, doesn't think that she can do the things that she wants to do in life, but it's somehow able to do them. And I related to all that. So it just spoke

to me deeply. And the idea that out of all the work that I'm trying to do and what I'm trying to leave behind with my name on it, um, there has to be something out there that that talks to kids. You know. I have a niece who was thirteen years old, and I see her. I watched her. I see her trying to figure out the world. I see her listening to watching CNN like at Christmas and we're all the adults are talking about She's the only kid in the family and she's trying to figure it out.

How does she fit into it? When she hears these things. She asked me about doctor the other day and dreamers and in park Land and you know, she'd been on the earth for thirteen years, the whole earth, Like she came into their thirteen years ago and they are here in the midst of this caiod of time just trying to figure it out. And so, you know, I thought of her so much as I was making and it's like the story is who you are is enough, and you know, keep focused on good. You know, like Michelle

Obama says, when they go low, we go high. You know, not to make it political, that's not what I'm saying. It's just saying that there's a a pivoting towards positivity just in your day and as as you go through this world. And if kids can get that early, if kids, if if Caucasian boys can get the message that you can trust a black girl. In the movie, you know, Meg who's the black girl, says to Calvin, do you

trust me? Like that? When I watched that and it makes me tear up even still, it catches me sometimes she says him, dude, you trust me? And there's a beat and he says yes. In that for a black girl, for a brown girl, big fucking deal. You know, if you're privileged to be on the other side of that, you don't understand. You've seen that your whole life, people just trusting you and thinking that people that look like

you are to be trusted and to lead. Um, but if you've never seen that, I cannot think of another film where girls not a Jedi, you know what I mean, who's not a superhero, just a girl you know, is leading a group of boys in that way. And he was able to ask those questions, to be asked, those questions about trust and respect. And it's given that, you know, I did that every with that every day on set,

you know, in these studios. It's like, what if some of these guys could have seen that when they were twelve and eleven, so that I didn't have to deal with it later, now, you know what I mean? Um, you know, you may not be in the Me Too movement, and you may not need types up, and you may not need Black Lives Matter if you just teach kids that are not of color that the quote unquote others are just like them, worthy to be trusted and followed. So that's what this film is. It's a lot of

that of the Black Girls Code Group. It was a bunch of these girls that were flowing in from Philadelphia and Oakland, and they just had a really visceral reaction to those images, and I just think, God, they're nourishing to more than girls of color. You know, That's why Panther is nourishing to more than black people, because people that are not black, you know, Caucasian people are able to see that and see, you know, black people as heroes,

and that does something to the culture as well. And so you know, these images for young people are or what I'm hoping to get out there, and uh, you know, it's it's all a stew of those ideas. I'm looking forward to my kid being old enough to take them. I want to buy them, buy him a Black Panther figure that they were sold out at Target the other day. Give them something at some point. Yes, yes, what's next for you? This is a silly question when you're promoting

something that's massive, But what's next for you? I'm casting right now, You're already onto it. It's going to be that one. Okay. I wasn't sure if it was that one or the bunch of stuff out there that I was thinking about. To Park five is just the one that was really all my heart. That I had to do, and I just always try to let that lead. What what is the story that I'm gonna tell right now? What what do I have to do right now? So I sent to part five. Um, you had the writer's

room going while I was in post of Wrinkle. Um, and uh, I'm rewriting some stuff and doing my writing three of the five episodes and uh then so we're casting our breakdown just went out for the five Boys, which is really hard to find those five young boys. Um, they were thirteen and fourteen when they were convicted of a crime they didn't commit and sent off to all

of these uh, horrible places. And so um told me doing that yet the next five hours for Netflix and we start that in the summer, Bread for Young Shooting it ever told anyone of these things, I'm breaking the news with you and Chris Davley. That's what happens. That's what happens. But yeah, I'm gonna work on it with Brad this summer and we're just gonna get back into it and you know, tell these stories of these families. It's really the families. Um, but it's it's it's a

beautiful story. I was gonna ask you how you're gonna uniquely frame it, so you're gonna go into the family. Yeah, at each boy kind of is the highest center for an hour, so they each get their own hours as the film is progressing. Um, so the case is progressing, but each hour, another boy is more more prominent until you get to the to the fifth to the fifth boy. That's great. Yeah, I can't wait to see that. Yeah, thank you, And for now everyone should go see Wrinkling time.

It opens March night. Take your kids or take your kids inside of you. Just pick up some kids somewhere and just bring them. Donate to some kids, you know, donate to some kids. There you go, you've got a program going. No fill up change in. This nonprofit social justice organization saw the film and said, kids have all kinds to be able to see this, and there's a lot of kids that can't afford it. So if you want to give a ticket to a kid, you got

to give a child. The universe dot com you could buy tend a ticket and they'll connected to a kid someplace where there's no movie theater and there's no possibility that we've seen the movie. There you go. I'm glad you got a chance to put all those ideas on such a big candidates. So congratulations, it was fun and check out the movie. Everyone, thanks for coming on the show again. Appreciate thank you.