Ep52 - Rian Johnson / "Star Wars: The Last Jedi"

the big screen. Check out the whole schedule and all the other awesome films that are playing at MoMA dot org. Slash film. Uh, oh, it's actually right there, Chris. I'm good man tired? Where are you coming? All right? Were wrong? He's kind of That was gonna be our next question. How old your kid? Screaming and running around? Congratulations? Yeah, thank you. I have seen. Yeah, he screams and runs around. That's a good sign if they're screaming and running around. Yeah,

that's what my barber said. I was telling about it. I was like, man, he's screaming all the time and I can't figure it out. He says, Oh, that's because that means he's healthy. Yeah, exactly, true. That's true. I guess Oh my god, that coffee is so good that I'm good, Thank you m It doesn't work on the cleans. I'm afraid. How are you doing that clans? Oh no, let's not talk about We thought about doing that. Crane and I we were. She actually got these soup cleans.

She got in we ordered it and showed up and it landed right in the middle of when I started traveling to do as it's been sitting waiting on you. You know who turned me on this one was Gama to Toro. Really was what it's called clean? Is this the one? Because Edgar right is doing one too. It's is it? What is it? What's the deal? Is it? Where you eat lunch? But it's like Shakespeare dinner and shape for breakfast. And I think that's might be the

one that Edgar Yeah, yeah, it Paltrow approved. It's approved. How long have you been on this day? Eight? Oh my god? How you feeling? I feel good? Man, Yeah, I feel great, jumping my step. You know, all right, maybe I gotta tread what I needed at the end of the year. I think a prey leaguer, I'll give it a shot. So we're here with Ryan Johnson, director of Star Wars The Last Jedi, also director of Looper, which, as he knows, is one of my favorite movies. Chris,

that movie Blew Me Away. Thanks. That was in New York that year. Actually that was the year we lived in New York. Yeah, I saw it at the Sony Room there downtown. I love that movie. So as soon as I knew you were tapped for Star Wars, I was like, this is perfect. They tapped me. I got apt. Thanks for coming on. We're gonna talk about as much as we can. These movies are shrouded in secrecy. That difficult to anything you want to know, Matt, Come on,

let's just see what's doing. Let's see what happened when When? When is Darth Plague is showing up Darth Uh? Yeah, you know it's it's weird. It's like a double edged sword because, um, I've been traveling around starting to do press the last couple of weeks, but nobody's nobody's seen the movie yet. I can't talk about anything. So on the man, the one hand, it's it's it is u this little dance you have to do. On the other hand, it's slowly, it's become the norm over the past few weeks,

so I'm kind of used to it. So now I'm getting nervous about after people actually see the movie and I'll have to actually talk about I have to explain myself. That's an interesting way to go about it. Yeah, I can't imagine how exhausting this kind of thing has been the last weeks. Have been traveling around the world and meets real work. That's true, That's what I like to say, beats working. Uh, but how is it comparing to what

you may be expected? I mean, you had to have expected a certain level of exhaustion coming into a big piece of machinery like this. But how was it? How was the whole thing different than what you I guess say, man, I mean, yeah, I didn't know what to expect because it was, you know, it's my first time doing any doing a studio movie full stop, you know, and it's obviously it's like, you know, just scale wise, there's nothing quite like it. So there's nothing I had done that

was even close to it. Obviously, So I really didn't know what to expect. I gotta say, Um, I mean in terms of just process. Uh, the biggest surprise was how similar it was to my previous movies that I've made, How it really wasn't It sounds so strange to say it really wasn't that different, you know, I mean because I think the machine is so old tuned. It's a big machine, but it's it's such a well crafted, an

oiled machine. And by that I mean the people who the heads of department and all the people, they're so good at their jobs. The analogy I keep making is it's not like chaplain in modern times, kind of stuck in this cog and this big machine. It's more like Pacific rim where you get in the body suit, in the brain and this massive machine perfectly follows your movements and can get you what you want. And that's how the whole thing felt to me. So Um, the truth is,

I mean, it was a long shooting schedule. It was like a ten days so there is just like the marathon element of it. But um, I don't know. You're exhausted whether you do that or a twenty days shoot. Maybe more exhausted after a twenty days shoot. Um. And now right now and I don't feel tired, I feel I don't know, I feel energized. Maybe it'll hit you in February, I think it will, or maybe or maybe

December fifteenth, I'll just collapse. Uh, you started shooting this just in the immediate wake of Force Awakens and the impact that it made massive box office around the world. It's hugely successful. Did that just talk about whether that

felt like it elevated the stakes for you at all? Well, there's I mean, when Force Awakens came out, we were in prep and there was definitely kind of a little gasp and a little you know, the spotlight kind of turned on us briefly, and we went and like did like a quick like Okay, let's make sure the script is as tight as it can be, and we went back into a little polished to it and um, but you know, I mean, I think for me, the big thing that I'm thankful for looking back is that I

wrote the script before the movie came, before Force Awakens was even really made. They were shooting it while I was making the script, so I got the best of both worlds. I got to just personally react to the story and the script and what I was seeing the actors bringing to the parts and the dailies, and I got to put that personal action into it without having

to even try to filter all the world's reaction to it. Um. And so then once we had the script, I mean, the truth is, that's kind of the movie that we made, was that script. And so once you've got that, um, you know, you can feel the pressure of it. It's not going to really, it's not like it's going to

change really what you're what you're doing. I guess. You know, it's interesting you say that the script that you wrote is the movie you made, because you know, a handful of filmmakers have struggled a little bit within the lucasfilm system, and you seem to have just been able to hit the ground running and really just crank out of the exact vision that you intended to. And I'm just what

do you think that it's Well, I don't know. I mean, you know, it's it's I mean, first of all, just say, you know, other other people's sets or movies are like other people's marriages. You know, you've got to be very if you if you're judging them from the outside and you think you have an idea of what's happening in them,

you're you're probably wrong. So it's and I was not in any of those processes, so I can't speak to them at all, you know, but uh, just speaking to what I the process I went through, I don't know we we uh you know, I say that I was.

I was. I had an incredibly good time with Kathy Kennedy and Lucasfilm and also with Disney, UM, Bob Iger, Alan Horne, Allen Bergman, They've been just terrific collaborators who have just given me I've felt not only just creative freedom, but really protected to kind of pursue what I wanted to do with this story. Um. So, I mean that's the whole reason we're doing this new trilogy actually is just because we had such a good time working with these folks. My producer Rom and I were like, we

should keep this going. This is a really good thing. So anyway, I mean, I know that we we all got on the same page from the very start. The script that we delivered, Um, you know, everyone was into it, and I think we all had conversations and I was communicated what it was that I really wanted to make and they were on board with that. So I think we all started pointing in the right direction. And I think UM and also just you know, we we all had kind of a bond of trust coming into it.

Everyone felt really good about each other, and we just got off on the right foot. And I think that where you start, I think just is really what informs the entire process. Um. And yeah, I don't know. I also just and I've always you know, there's I think that there's kind of the perception sometimes I know I had this from the outside before I worked on a studio film like this, that um that it is a big kind of controlling machine. And maybe in some cases

it is, but uh, but not in this case. And the truth is, even with independent film, I mean everywhere, anyone who has made an indie film and has a financer who financed it, or has a producer who's pretty or something knows that, you know, it's not like with an indie film you get to just really do whatever you want without any conversations or negotiations if anything. On some of the you know, on the smaller films that I've made, there have been more difficult waters to navigate

than on this one. Um, you always have to come into it. And just part of the skill of making a movie is not just how to navigate the waters of all the people you're working with, but how to how to set the relationships from the start so that it's not antagonistic, but so that it's um you always frame everything, which because it's the truth of we're all

on the same team. We're trying to make a great movie and the truth I mean, obviously that's only possible if the people you're working with are good folks who want that to happen. But if that is possible, that's what you're trying to do at the start. You know, when you did come in and you said, you know, this is the movie I want to make. Just in the broadest terms, I guess what was like the big

idea that you wanted to introduce to this universe. Well, the you know, my pitch to Cathy was basically, you know, if the first movie was introduction, this movie is training. But that doesn't mean like, you know, necessarily Yoda style training or a training montage. To me, what that means is it's the movie where we test each one of the characters and we find the hardest possible thing they could come up against, and we throw it at them,

just like the second act of any movie. It's where the complications come in and everyone gets stumbling blocks thrown in their way. And you know, that's how you define characters, how characters react, what they do when they hit the toughest thing that's coming at them. So um, in my mind, taking these characters who I think it's a small miracle with j J. And you know, Larry and Michael were

able to create with that first movie. The fact that they create these characters who came to life so vividly and who stuck every single one of them, you know, so well up on the screen. Um. And you can see it reflected in in the culture. How those new characters hit. It's it's amazing. There's a reason for it, the really good introductions to these characters. Um. So I think someone put it to me like the sandboxes back, Yeah, exactly,

That's how it felt. Well that's a tunnel thing. Also, I think that j J really pulled off, which I is something I really consciously wanted to carry forward, you know, um, the the and especially knowing that it was going to be um, you know, because it's the middle chapter and we've got to do this challenging of everyone. It was going to go to some more intense places. I was really conscious that I wanted to. I loved the tone from The Force Awakens. I thought captured the original movies

in this great way. And I was really conscious I wanted to be fun and funny and um, you know all the things of Star Wars movies should be. I didn't want it to descend into heavy aosity. Um. In many ways, Star Wars is its own aesthetic, right. But were you interested all and introducing new visual concepts, new visual language? Uh? Were there reference points? Was there anything in art or photography that you want that you kind of the ultimate question being what did you want your

Star Wars movie to look like? I guess yeah, I mean it's it's uh. I mean you don't come into it thinking how do I shake this up? You come into it just thinking like how do I make this feel like Star Wars? But once you get into it, I mean there are a lot of things that that there are a lot of things to factor into it being a balance of those two things you talked about. Um, you have a lot of conversations with I LM. We had a couple of key designers and I m um.

Kevin Jenkins was one of them. James Klein was another who we worked with on a lot of the concepts for some of the bigger design pieces. And you you find folks um pretty quickly who just kind of have a innate sense of of something that feels Star Wars e And it's tough to really like nail it down and put in words, but there is just a feel um that you can because it's not futurism. That's that's the That's kind of the trap is anytime a new designer would come in and they would they would want

to push it forward. The problem is when you you know, pushing it forward nine times out of ten meant it started looking like um, not to denigrate this, because it's beautiful design that started looking like Marvel movie spaceships where it's enough lots of holograms and glowing surfaces, or it started looking like an Apple store, you know, Um, and it's futurism. It's like pushing forward into like what feels

modern now. And Star Wars is not that it's a it's a period film, you know, in the period is this world that we loved when we were watching the movie as as kids. Anyway, Um, so there's you find designers who are good at just kind of capturing that. But and I think this is a healthy thing. You know. When I came in, a lot of the designers I was working with had just had worked on Force Awake Ends. A lot of them had also done work on Rogue One.

They have been working, they have been just doing nothing but Star Wars for the past few years. And so it's almost like, you know, um, you know, get wanting to give you know, give everyone like fresh water, you know it. It feels you just to keep them creatively engaged and invigorated. It does feel good to come up with challenges of Okay, here's something we've never seen a Star Wars movie before. What's the Star Wars version of this?

You know? Um, and it's you know, you can't just tag old bases because mainly because that's boring for the team that's making the movie. Yeah, and it's interesting too. I mean, like David Tattersall is the only DP that shot more than one Star Wars movie. Every movie has had its own kind of visual author in a way. Dan Mendel Brick Fraser and Steve Vidlin for you on your on on the new films. Uh, and I've all.

You know, it's always been fascinating to me how the there's a definitive shift in the visual language of Empire versus Star Wars with was it Peter Shitsky came in to to shoot that one, and you know that That's kind of what I'm curious about, is just yeah, finding that different flourish. Yeah, you know, well, and and just just talked a little bit about this in the run up, but like the color read for instance. Yeah, well just generally, I mean, you know, Steve and I and we have

you know, my Simaitarirapher Steve Yadlin. We've been best friends since we were seventeen years old. We met, you know, I was a freshman in film school. He was still a senior in high school. And we met as like pas on a student film said at USC. So, um, so we've never been doing you know, each other a long time. We looked at Empire as our main visual reference,

um in terms of the Star Wars movies. Um, just because it's the closest to our taste in terms of I mean, it's the most just playing flat out beautiful of all the films, I think, and the lighting and it, um, the the way that the lightning was genuinely daring, the way they let faces go dark, the way they let you know, places be shadowy, the way that they didn't compromise. Um.

I think it's gorgeous. Um. But then also, you know, we also at the beginning of it, and this was something I give some thought to, you know, face both with lightning and also but mainly with camera. The question of do I look at the the older films and try and somehow mimic the visual style, which was not a ton of camera movement kind of locked down a more formal sort of approach, and I, you know, I quickly decided, no, I can't do that, Like it's this movie.

You know, those movies were shot that way because that felt right to the people who were making them, and that felt and for me, I I gotta shoot it in a way that's going to feel like the gears are going to catch on in my head for this movie. How to get me excited what we're doing visually on set every day and saying with you if you gotta you know, you gotta make a movie that feels exciting to you. They're also a product of their era in

that way. Yeah, absolutely, you want your movie to necessarily feel like everything else this in theaters, but there's kind of like this. Yeah. I mean they're a product of the filmmakers who are a product of their Uh. Let's talk about Carrie Fisher. Um. You know, we've often heard about her talents as a script doctor. So my curiosity for you is what kind of invaluable input did she bring to uh the project for you? Well, I mean that's how we connected with as right now. She was

a writer first and foremost. I think that she um, you know, she in my experience with her, you know, performing was was on camera was you know, the thing she was least comfortable with. She was more she loved writing and she loved words, and she um uh. And so I mean, I you know, I after I wrote the script, I would come over to her house or did this a few times. I would just sit with her for hours, go over every scene. And not that we would like totally rewrite the scenes or anything, but

she what she loved. She loved jokes, she loved puns, she loved word play. She loved and so she at every single line, she would just throw out three thousand possible jokes or puns. That could happen, and you know, in nine times out of ten, two thousand and of them were unusable. And then there will be that one that was just like, oh my god, that's pretty cool,

let's do that. Uh. And then but then there were you know, there was um one scene in particular that was you know that involved Laura Dern's character where the three of us got together and kind of did rework the scene from the ground up, and that was that was pretty amazing geting Gang to actually work with Carrie on a on a scene and and finding the emotional beats of it. And it's I mean, it's one of the scenes in the movie that I just yeah that, yeah,

I think that teams. That's it's really special. Um, And what do you think you learned from her? I mean, I mean it's not like you know, it's it's not like here are some lessons that I learned from her or anything like that. I think she I I learned. I mean she she just had this sense of she just had a playfulness and she had a m I guess you know, it's it's just a reminder that the the only sin in writing really is being boring. And

Carrie was incapable of being boring. And you know, aside from taking lessons from the way that she lived her life openly and honestly and was just you know, um constantly just living in living in that mode and without shame. I think that's something you can a lesson from in terms of writing. I mean, just the there's a less

a lesson is less a lesson. It was more just drawing inspiration from how amped up she was about making words saying you know, I mean, she just it just you could see her eyes start to glow when she hit like but she found a new phrase and she was just you know, saying it and you could see like this that was like food to her. Yeah, that's inspiring. Man. Uh. You know, in the first film, we didn't get a whole lot of her, So you know, what did she bring ideas to like fully more fully flesh out who

this character has been for her? Like, I'm just curious what she brought to the table in terms of these are the ideas I have, Yeah about this character that's meant you know, plenty to her in her career and that she's now tackling again later in life and she have like did she come forth with ideas for that well, I mean she one thing that she was really conscious

of was what lay meant two girls. She was really really held that precious and I think that comes from years of going to the conventions and doing like autograph signings and stuff and just seeing and talking to all these fans in general, but specifically she was aware of the women who, especially with the original films, you know, where Leo was the only female hero like that in these movies, UM, and what that meant um, And so

she was always conscious of that. I mean she you know, I I don't want to um because I can feel her her middle finger descending from the heavens. So I don't want to uh works on too much, wa sound too much? And I I also I wrote this. I wrote the character as it needed to be written in the script, and so UM, not because I want to take credit for it, but the opposite, because I don't want to offend carry by implying that it's exactly what

she would have wanted. I think, you know, uh she So it's not like we sat down at the beginning and she said this is what Leo should be and I wrote that, you know, Um, But once we started getting into it and knocking our heads together. She I mean, it's impossible not to get her into that character. You know, when's the last time you saw her? I saw her the sixtieth birthday, so that was just yeah, a few months before she passed us. You mentioned this new trilogy

that you guys are working on. Um, do you worry at all about spending too much time within this universe? Not that you know you're you're in danger of it, but just you know, not that you feel this way about Peter Jackson's involvement in the Middle Earth movies, But I think maybe there's some sense in some quarters that he overstayed the welcome there and there could be a danger, I guess, of just wallowing and something that you love a little too much for too long. Do What do

you think about that at all? Or No? I think the only danger is if you if you make You know, if I made a boring movie, that would be that would be bad. Right now, I know I I can't relate to that fear at all, because right now I feel nothing but just giddy excitement at the possibilities. And to me, right now, it doesn't you know, intellectually, I can understand what you're talking about, Like in terms of a weight of oh my god, I'm going to be in Star Wars for the the next ten that I inside

I can't get. There's zero of that. It's just feeling like, oh my god, the possibilities of a the possibilities of a story on this kind of canvas with this kind of potential, and something that will um, something that will make the Gears engage in the way that I feel from a good Star Wars movie, you know, the emotion of it and the impact of it and the fun of it and all the different ingredients that can go into it and using that to tell one story that

can really have an impact. Um, I'm you know, I feel like it's everything I ever wanted to make movies to do. You know. Yeah, I was sort of over the moon when I saw that announcement because of just the notion of doing all new material because these movies, I mean, it's this galaxy, right, and understandably you have to kind of whip things back into perspective. This is this is the world. Here's the characters that we knew, here's the the settings that we're aware of. But it's

sort of it could feel like treading water. And it's like there's this whole galaxy to do, and so this idea of doing like all new stories is fantastic and it's it's good to know that things are going to push in those directions. I mean, I mean, I'm excited

about it. I think that I will say that, you know, like for instance, with the Last Jedi, like it's not like, um, I don't know, I feel like with any story hopefully, if you're actually like putting your foot on the gas and doing and doing what you gotta do with it, I don't know it yet. Like I and I say this having made the really conscious choice of let's set this someplace else, in someplace new. So obviously there's something that appeals to me about that. But um, working with

these established characters so we've seen before, it hasn't. It's not like it's felt like turning the monkey grinder wheel or like it's felt like a yoke on my shold on my shoulders. If because anytime you come into any story, whether it's pre existing characters stuff we're familiar with or not, you're taking them to new places. You're engaging with them new,

you're getting inside their head, they're in a different place. So, um, you know, I think any story that works as a story that works, you know, Um, I don't know, I'm speaking as a fan. I mean when it's yeah, I gets solo movie movie, now it's like, but there's this whole other So this is exciting, you know. Yeah, I'm excited excited about Uh, you know, you've you've already kind of shut down the notion that this is like the Knights of the Old Republic. People got excited that maybe

that was it. Is there nevertheless, anything in that pre existing cannon that you're interested in exploring. I mean, there's so much cool stuff and all of it. I'm I mean honestly, and I totally get you know, especially people who are hardcore fans of that, I understand. I totally get like feeling the potential of all that stuff and thinking and and also that your mind immediately goes to I want to see more of what I've already seen. You know, there's just something that I get that as

as a fan. Um, But I mean for me, honestly, I'm I don't know, I'm I'm I'm what gets me excited is um, what gets me excited? This story, I guess, and and that has a lot less to do with where it's set and what elements it uses than it does what it's about and what the main journey it's about is. Um that's what for me has me really excited, so as to where it's going to be, when it's going to be still figuring that out in a way, that feels like the least important aspect of it to me,

you know. Um, so it's more about what it's going to be. I think did you consume a lot of that earlier? I've played the nights of the older public games and was really really into them. I completed the games, and uh so that's a lot about I know. I watched the YouTube cut scenes that was like six hours. It's a whole long thing and it's but it's fantastic, and it came at a time where it was really

a meaningful engagement with Star Wars. For me, it was like, oh, this is really cool and um and also the fact that it was the first thing, or one of the first things where your choice is actually influenced the path of your character was going to take, and that was groundbreaking at the time. It was really something, Um, I never. I'm less familiar with the extended universe stuff. I was never, never really consumed all the books. I've since gotten enough

to speed somewhat on it. But again, for me, it's, you know, I don't know. For me, it's it's it's about it's about the story. So it's about coming up with a news story and just out of curiosity. Was was one of the things. You eventually read the Darth Baine trilogy, Now I haven't. That's my favorite thing is awesome. I know he's a fan favorite. Check it out. So what are you eager to do once you kind of

pivot away from the galaxy? You know, what's what feels like you mean twenty years from now when they finally release you No, I didn't have. I mean, the thing is it's that's the other thing with these next three movies is figuring out timing wise how it's going to work, which we don't know yet. I've got a couple of smaller films that I've just had, I've got the thing I was working on before this. I've got a few other things that I would love to figure out a

way to make, you know, not ten years from now. So, um, you know, so we'll see. But I've I've definitely outside of Star Wars, got a couple of other things that I'm I would love to do. Um. Have you had any time to work on developing that stuff? Yeah, Okay, we actually had because we you know, we finished the movie the we finished Last Jedi a couple of months ago. So I've had this very odd lull and that's only in the past few weeks hasn't been hacked. And I know, yeah,

I know, it's it's uh, it's Disney. Yeah, they got locked down. Yeah, way every day though, I was holding my breath and believe me, I was holding my breath every day, whether you know, a big leak was gonna add the whole script was gonna go online or something like that. But we've been very, very lucky in that regard. So anyway, Yeah, so I've had a couple of months now to just kind of get my head in the space of you know, okay, can I can I get

a couple other little things kind of good thought of. Yeah, And then last thing you've been from their usc Alum. I went there for grad school actually, so flight on um being able to premiere this movie at the Shrine it has to be. It's a trip, man. I remember. God, I can remember as a film student going across to the Shrine to one of the conventions there, and we saw Sam Raimi give a little presentation for Quick and the Dead, and he's, you know, was one of my

favorite filmmakers. I was just obsessed with Sam Raimi and at that point I still am, and he's, uh, I don't know. I remember all of us trooping over there. It doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars at the Edges, but I just gonna have frendling in the memory of Ramie making dad jokes when he introduced his he literally is wearing a tie and he put on his glasses and so that his tie wins like back in all his glasses, and then he waved his arms in the air and said, oh, who turned out the lights?

She was so good, And we're all just like, oh, we love this man so much, so great. It's it's gonna I don't know, man, that right now. I'm you know, this is going to be literally the first time in audience is the movie. You know, Because of the way these things are, we don't test screen them. I've never shown it to a group bigger than ten or fifteen friends. Um so I'm less. I'm thinking a lot less about the venue right now, and a lot more about Oh my god, are the jokes gonna play? Get your dead

jokes ready? Yeah? Exactly, I got them. Well. The movie is called Star Wars The Last Jedi. It opens December. I'm pretty sure you'll you'll be hearing about it. So the platform released. I think it's the angelic and I think we've gotta build awareness for you, so make sure you check it out. Ryan Johnson really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you, sir. Thanks. We're about you roll, untamed power and beyond that something truly special. M m m.

Something inside me has always been there. Then I was awake and I need help. I've seen this roster only once before. It didn't scare me about them. It doesn't know, but the parents started. M h kill it. If you have feeling, I feel nobody could come. You met the Bak. We have to spark. That'll light the fire that both for starting down. This is not going to go. Will you think foul film? Yeah, that's I need someone to show me a place and all this