Ep46 - Taika Waititi / "Thor: Ragnarok"

for the Wilder People. So let's talk to him about it. Thak is right here, and we're very happy he's on the show. Thanks for coming on, man, thank you for having me. Were mad as well talk about it to see him here. Yeah, I mean that's we should talk about some other stuff. Actually, I mean, um, you got me here. Let's talk about that shirtless scene. We'll get I want to start. People may not be aware you're an Academy Award nominee, your Short film award loser. Y

put it like that. Okay, it's cool, it is. Let's cut it. Cut the on it. If you don't win your Lisa An Academy Award losing director from New Zealand. Well, look, you dozed off during the ceremony anyway, so it wasn't no big You're a short film Two Cars, One Night, which I watched last night, was nominated in two thousand four. So that experience of getting an OSCAR nomination earlier in

your career, what was that like for you? Um? I mean I was very flattered, but also I wasn't really planning on being a filmmaker, so once that happened, Um, I was. I was encouraged by a lot of people and pressure was on to really become a filmmaker. So it was more like an arranged marriage. Really. Um I sort of felt forced into it, and luckily I haven't

regretted it, but yeah, it was. It was. It was just something that I just made that short film just to experience making a film, and then the next thing I knew, you know, everyone was calling me a filmmaker. I don't know the first thing about making films, so I did learned pretty quick. Yeah. That leads me to my next question. You went to drama school, I think, Yeah, I actually went to university and did a theater studies. Theater studies. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't study film. Um,

and that was that that. That degree has probably been of no use whatsoever in my life, but my mom was proud, I've got I've got a film degree in a journalism degree. I think those might be the two most use I think most people going to go to university just to make the parents happy. Absolutely, And you know that's a big part of the equation. Yeah, his I'm gonna make my parents happy by racking up thousands and thons dollars of debt. It's gonna take me fifteen

years to pay off. Well, they know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you know, learn on the streets how you're going to figure out how to pay off that debt. Well, you also learn about tax and stuff, you know, once he into the real world. Why don't they teach tax at school when they just before you leave high school they say, by the way, you need to learn about tax because it's going to come back to buy you and you're going to get ordered one day. They don't teach you that, No,

they don't. You're right, they should. They should teach that in art school because there's anyone's oblivious to that artists. But I wanted to ask just since you didn't go to school for film per se, like what like, how did you learn the craft? Was it just through our short films? Actually? So, I was an active for a long time before I started making film, and I think I learned. I think my film school really was watching movies and watching people make movies and then eventually making

making some short films and stuff like that. And I learned a lot doing that. But yeah, I've learned most of my stuff. Just being on sets is a great environment. Yeah, is that this is the best film schools being on set? What were some of like, you know, your inspirations. I guess when you started watching films and figuring out how to make them by observing Um, I mean a very eclectic um mix of films sort of inspired me over

the years. But films I always go back to films like The Graduate bad Lands, UM, how Ashby's films, UM so American UM cinema of the seventies for sure, and Korean cinema. UM, I really love Korean films. Sort of just like to take it a little bit from everywhere really, UM, not so much the French weirdly what do you know, how Ashby? That's interesting. H What I love about him

is he doesn't really have a distinct style. You can't really you can't really find, I mean, other than his cameos or you know, and maybe some of the cutting style is not a really a a three line or

a link in style between any of those films. Are the difference between Harold and Maud and Coming Home well you know, the last detail and um and being there, so they were vastly different and um, you know, and some of the comedies and some of the straight up dramas and yeah, I just really love his I just love that mix, you know, where he never felt like

he was repeating himself. And he's fascinating too. For being an editor first and transitioning to filmmaking, was there a particular aspect of the trade, like editing cinematography, that that you gravitate towards most mm hmmm, I don't know, not, not not so much. Now. Um. You know, I used to think I was really into writing, but now I've realized how a lonely that is. And um, I feel like I like editing, but usually only when I'm editing.

Um I don't usually like being in a room with someone for six months because you feel like you just want to kill them. Um yeah, I like, I mean, I mean maybe the camera department because I work so closely with them, and it's sort of yeah, it feels like the area that that I focus on the most, and I mean and and and our department. You know, I really love seeing sets being created in the seat

and and all the details. Well, that was very crucial on the new movie, which I'm going to get do in just one second, but before I do, I didn't want to talk briefly about Mohana, which you worked on early drafts of, and then walk the way to work on movies in New Zealand. Was that hard for you

to walk away from that situation. No, it was very easy to walk away because I wasn't directing it, and just as a as a writer on a film like that, Um the you know, then those guys were great, and it was it was it was a really cool experience, but I didn't feel like it was going to do much for me and in my projects or my creativity

just by being someone's writer, you know. And when I realized that, because those films, you know, they take four or four years or so to make four or five years, and just the prospect of working on one project for five years as a writer, um just did not appeal to me. And oh yeah, and so I would often made what we do in the Shadows and and Hunt for the World of People and shot four in that time, in the time that it took for them to finish

that film. So I feel like there was a good move. Definitely, Density wives. Did you, you know, take anything from the experience that you've applied going forward, anything that you learned on it that kind of set you up? No? I mean, yeah,

did you actually the one? One One of the good things about the the writing process on the Disney slash Pixar films, it is really the kind of brain trust story room sessions that they have, and you know, they'll they'll take the project, everyone will read it, and I'll invite all the directors from the past films and all the writers from the other films, and everyone kind of comes out, and all the producers and it's just like a kind of massive roundtable with you know, thirty forty

people and it's a free for aw and you know, really everyone just there to tear it apart and and make the best story possible, and hopefully by the end of that day or two days that they concentright on on the story. Yeah, you'll have a new structure, and you'll have really clear ideas about characters and and how

to move forward. And I think that's really useful. I love I love it when people get together and tear something apart because it's it's it's yeah, when people are very complimentary and they don't have any criticism, it's um, it gets you get a bit complacent, and I think you can get too comfortable on your ideas and then you start thinking that you're you know, you're a genius and every idea that you come up with is amazing.

You need people to put you in your place. Well, you're you've come back that doesn't need to work on thor here. And so, uh, what did you feel, I guess was if anything lacking in the Marvel cinematic universe that you could put in it? Uh? You know what, what did you want to contribute? What what got you excited that you were the guy to put this movie

out there? It wasn't really um that I felt that they were lacking anything because you know, after Guardians had come out, you know, I realized, oh yeah, there's definitely room for jokes on this and this uh m c U for me coming into it, I think selfishly, I just wanted some you know, a nice challenge and suddenly

that would break me out of my comfort zone. And I just I just I was editing Hunt for the Will of People, also made four films, and was starting the thing, man, the next thing I do am I just gonna be repeating myself, you know, is it going to be just another you know, and make destined to just keep doing these smaller films and that would be fine.

But when the opportunity came to do something really big and something that would be a huge challenge, that to me was a perfect opportunity to learn to keep learning about film. And I've you know, as a result of obviously I've learned a huge amount of doing this film.

Um and with thought with that franchise, I felt like that was the one franchise that had the most potential to be shaped into something new, like I couldn't come in and do you know the third Guardians film, because it's so well shaped and it has its own personality and its own voice, and that's all James, and you know some similar thing with you know, if I come and try and do Captain America, it's very distinctly the

Russo's domain. And I just I would feel very strange coming into into those franchises and trying to put my mark on it. And they don't need someone to put their mark on those things. They're you know, they're great. They're great as they are. Before one had the most potential because it just I felt it probably didn't quite know itself as as well as the other franchises knew themselves.

There wasn't quite a distinct voice there yet. And I felt like, Okay, well, this is my opportunity to come in, and this is something I could probably bring a lot of myself to and you know, my voice in my style too, because it's you know, it hasn't got a

really shape yet. And yeah, and and and I think I was right, you know, And and well I was lucky because Brandon and Taylor had done so much groundwork and laying the foundations for the world and the character and everything that I could come in and every all of that establishment of you don't explain anything homes they're

all done, and it's one of the hardest. Um, it's one of the hardest stories to establish because of all the crazy names and the Rainbow Bridge, the by Frost and all of them, you know, the names of the characters. So I was very lucky and that Dad had all been done for me and I could just kind of come and pick up the ball and run with it. Um. So yeah, so I totally have to acknowledge, you know, the fact that it was It was quite an easy, um, an easy thing to walk into. Yeah, is that what

the process was. They brought you in and said, we'd like you to work on something. What are you interested in doing? And you you came to that a mix. It was a mixed They they wanted to do something fun, and they wanted to make a radical departure from the first two films. Then you were brought in specifically for thor and not just generally which one of these do you want to I was just brought in just to talk about for And I've always wanted to work with

Chris Um. We were mates, we knew each other before, and I've always been a big admirer of his and but mainly of of his um his comedy. It's a very funny guy, and the opportunity to work with him was there, and Marvel knew that they you know, they wanted to um to focus on that and to bring that out because they realized just how funny he is and it's something that they hadn't really tapped into, and

so they saw an opportunity to do that. Chris was feeling like his the older version of thought was becoming a bit too familiar, and he wants to try something new, and so the ideas of cutting his hair and making them a little more colloquial and all that stuff that was already the seeds of that were already germinating. And when I came in, um, you know, I fully supported that and said, yeah, we should make him more fun. You know, the movie is called four. He's got to

be the best character. And you know, I grew up with watching Kurt Russell movies, and you know, he's one of my favorite heroic actors. And I remember like just feeling very safe in his hands when I was watching movies and thinking, yeah, this is a hero. Is a guy. Sometimes he's a bit bumbling, and he's really funny, but he's Also he's like a great hero who you want

to you want to follow around. So Bruce Willis, you know, he was one of those guys for me growing up, and I felt like Chris really had had that kind of quality about him. Um and yeah, it's just it was really about pulling that out and pushing that to the front and saying like, yeah, here's a guy who looks incredible. You know, he's charming and he's funny, and

you want to follow him on an adventure. And that's just Chris were like basically transplant that those qualities onto four and and so Yeah, as a result, he's kind of playing the most crisp version of four there is. I do feel like I could see him in like a remake of Tango in Cash or something like that. Like, you're right, I've been I've been joking about doing Tango and Cash it. Um. What was the just the initial connection though? Who brought you in to the Marvel? Brad Winderbaum,

who's the EP on the film. He got in touch through my agent and I guess they were talking to maybe three three directors or you know, three or four directors at the time, and I guess we all went and pitched on on the on, really on a story that no one kind of kind of had any idea what it was. At the time. There was a script, but they were trying to move away from that and

try some new things. Um, yeah, there was So when I pitched it was more like, this is the kind of tone I think the film should be, because there was no real story for me to pitch. It was you know, this could happen, that could happen, but really, this is the kind of film which should be have this tone, should have jokes, and you know, it should have some you know, some weight to it where it needs.

And my main thing really was just color, as just saying it's got I've grew up with Marvel comics and you know the thing about the splash pages and all those in the seventies and the eighties, there's just it was just color. It was bold and vibrant and really strong lines. And then especially looking at the Kirby art, that was stuff that I felt like would make a

would make a statement, and it would. And it was also I feel like that departure they were looking for from you know, from the tone and the palette of for one and two are you looking at my questions, man, because you're like anticipating what I'm going to ask. I was gonna talk about the reflection of your thing and the Jack Kirby stuff. It really stands out. And I often ask, uh, you know, directors of comic book films,

like what were the inspirations visually? Were there any specific frames from books that you wanted to emulate or anything like that. And with this one, it's pretty clear that the Kirby stuff is front in the center. So I wanted you to can you expand it a little more? Yeah, yeah, we wanted to, And that was something that I know that I think there's been a little a couple of Kirby references and guardians that James had used, um some

celest deals and stuff. But I feel and Kevin had said, you know, we we haven't really had the opportunity to run straight into the Kirby's art and use it as a bold inspiration for the for the design of any

film yet. And I always loved Kirby's art, and I'd love just the really the line and the contours and and and his even though he is I guess his costumes, Um, yeah, so those are the things that have really stood out to me and made me feel like this is this is the way to kind of push the film into that kind of Flash Gordon sort of territory where it's like vivid and in your face and unapologetic in terms of it's just like, this is a comic book that

happens to be moving. Um. That that was really the aim for me, was to try and make something as close to reading an old comic book as possible and um,

and then marvel fully into it and fully supportive. And what the hard us things with transferring that Kirby art from the page into a into a live action environment was that there's so much going on when you have it in a in live action it's actually it's almost too much for the human idea to take in because once it's moving, it's like so many different things are going on, and it's very hard to kind of pick out characters from those backgrounds. So we have to work

quite hard on figuring out it's like a magic high post. Yeah. Yeah, And we had to a pool characters away from walls and away from the backgrounds because we had to soften

that stuff. And and and actually and we had to make bigger block colors in the backgrounds so that people could stand out rather than I think what people's first instinct with Kirby's at is just like, oh, any old color, just anywhere, and just you know, and and but it's not really like that when you look at the stuff beyond, just like aesthetically, like those colors in this color palette

you ended up with. Did that mean anything to you thematically with the story you wanted to tell um No, I think it was more just I wanted to I just sort of wanted to shock the human eye, and especially ben't go into Sacar because it would Asgard had already been established as a very golden world. And and once we got to Scar, everything changed, included in music, you know, that's when Mother's Bows sort of symp music

started coming through. He'd done the score for everything, a big orchestral pieces, which in the traditional things, which was a sort of upfront in the film. But then it was more when when when four arise on Takar, that the entire music changes and and and the palette really takes off. And that for us was just a perfect way of of celebrating all the stuff from the comics, but also just showing for in a world that neither he or any audience that you ever been in before.

As well, then we were pulling Jeff Goldblum as well. I mean, it's the craziest I think of all of the alien planets that that I've seen in these movies. And speaking of music, it's it's kind of nice that they loosened the whatever was going on with led Zeppelin songs forever? Oh yeah, use them in commercials and movies and more. And it yeah, well that led Zep song was made a sizzle role from my pitch and that um I put that song in just part of that.

And right from that moment, they really loved the song. And even you know, as soon as I got the job, you know, they said, well, why don't we start exploring, um, you know, what it would take to get that song just in case we want to use it for the film, and um, so it was there right from the beginning. For the last two years, that thing has kind of been drifting around us. It's immigrant song, by the way,

everyone you'll see it first seen and it's badass. Uh. Also, the you know, you assembled like a delicious kind of array of characters here obviously our players, I mean, like Jeff gold Room, Keith Blanchet, Tessa Thompson. Did you write with them in mind? Because they there they just hit the characters like a glove, you know. So it just yeah, when we were storylining, we didn't we didn't really know that that we would cast Tessa. Um. She's so awesome,

she's amazing character. She's amazing. Um sort of the female hand Solo. Maybe hand Solo is a male valkyrie, that's it. So yeah, so you know, we hadn't really thought of her. Kate was already um in the works, and you know when I first came in, they were already talking about it and I agreed, and I said, yeah, we should just go And that's what I went and talk to her and tried to convince her to do it. Um and that worked. And then she has this look on her face in the film where it just looks like

she's having a blast. Yeah, it looks like she's having a blast. But also there's a sort of this I feel like she's so relaxed in the film because much like however, returns to Asgard and and that's her first sort of bold thing there. Um, it's like yeah, I've seen everything, I've done everything. This is nothing to me. You know, this is like easy does it walk in the park for meum, which makes it very enjoyable, you know. And I feel like that's sort of what I got

from Kate as well. It's like, yeah, what more can I do? Have one, a couple of oscars. I'm gonna come in and do this superhero movie with you guys. This is this is just fun. This is just fun for me. Um. So yeah, so yeah, and then then then Goldblum was our first choice for for Grandmaster, so I think in the scriptum and the storylining, definitely that's

who were thinking of. And and then Eric and Eric you try, I guess, try to capture how he might speak and when it came to the script, but it became pretty apparent that Jeff was pretty much just going to do his own thing, and you kind of want you do want that. You know, it's always how do you write? You know, I don't know how how do you write? Literally, I think I tweeted something like that. I was like, you could not write Jeff Goldblum as

a character like just that person. You wanted that person in a movie, and he didn't exist in real life, you wouldn't be able to write that person. He's a treasure. I just I don't even have a question here. I just wrote, Cork, this is the character that you play. It's just a statement. It's awesome and it must have been a blast and a lot huge part of the comedy comes from that. And he said, it's such an endearing character too, you know, he's there's such a warm

soul to him. What was it like kind of creating that character? And then there was a huge amount of fun for me because I put myself in all my movies, as a lot of people know now, Um, and this opportunity just arose because I knew I was going to try and find something small to do in the film, but I don't even imagine it would be. Yeah, I thought, maybe I'll just be that guy who Jeff melts in the chair. You know. It's just something I was small on.

What you tiny little cameo? Um, that was brutal by there's an extended version of that scene, yeah, which we're going to try and release, which is a big long conversation before he does that. It's hilarious. Um that they were probably a few quite extended scenes involving Jeff as you can imagine. But then Corg came up and it was just he was again. It was a small character that was sort of just laying laying down what Skar

was like fourth for in the first time they met. Um. And I love characters like that because I love playing characters who just comment on things or just talk or just sort of say random things when he was get on the ship, just stuff that doesn't matter, Like I like, yeah, I love playing characters potentially don't even need to be in the movie, but you know, they just add a

little bit of texture, a bit of flavor. Um and that whole voice just came out about from the wanting to do like a really colloquial New Zealand accent and feeling like, oh, no, one's heard this in these movies before, and it's just so strange. He's such a gentle character. There's so many crazy elements in this film, you know, like Giant Wolf was on beyarm Halla, the Hulk for you know, Valkyrie and Jeff Goldblin and all these in

Sakara itself. It's sometimes when when an audience is being bashed in the face with all of these crazy things. It's nice to just check in with someone who's gentle and he just wants to look after you. Yeah. And he's anything. Yeah, he's anything and and and he is one of the very few characters who doesn't want anything from thor if you look at it, like everyone is trying to exploit them or imprison him or you know,

or eat him or kill him. Yeah. So it's, um, he's just the guys, Like, I'm just happy to hang out with you, man. And then before we close out here, I have to talk to you about Bubbles. Uh. This was famously one of the favorite unmade screenplays on the Blacklist. It's about ostensibly Michael Jackson's life through the lives of his champ chimpanzee Bubbles. Although I've read that you you're

not concerned with making it about Michael Jackson's life. You kind of wanted to be the story about the champ, I guess and yeah, yeah, and I'm really um, I'm stoked to be involved in there because that's it's almost like a great antidote from what I've been doing for two years, even though this would be three times longer. Um, it's it's the process here and stop motion and and

it's just the subject is amazing to me. The idea of just of looking at the life of one of my huge heroes, Um through the eyes of one of his pets, and this is something so strange about that, and it's very I think aligns very much with a lot of my other work, where it's you know, we often look at the adult world three eyes with kids,

and this is kind of a similar theme. Really just seeing the craziness of this world where you know, the his his master, I guess is Um is as much a prisoner, was living in a cage just as much as Bubbles bubbles and you know, just these and just seeing the parallels between these two, these two characters, and I'm just kindo exploring that side of it. And that reminds me of my favorite Michael Jackson music video, leave Me Alone. Yeah, yeah, the animation, and it's you know,

it's all about his tabloid inspirations and stuff. So, and you're working with Starburns Industries, which Lisa one of my favorite movies that year. Um, it almost seems like in general, this project is more uh not challenging, but risky whatever than even something like thor I mean, yeah, this is and and and you know, part of the reason I thought was that that was going to be a challenge and also for me, it seemed like the least expected thing.

Um you know, it was one of the I surprise myself by doing for and now I feel like, oh, I'm surprising myself and shocking, shocking my kind of creative muscles again by entering into something as challenging as a stop motion about Michael Jackson's Chimpanzee. So I feel like every every project I want to do should be a sort of just you know, I just want my career to kind of zigzag crossing, but in and out of different scale projects, different mediums, different um yeah, different formats

and and and that's how I think it will. I will be able to keep it interesting. Yeah, definitely. Well, everyone should go see Thor Ragnarok this weekend. It's again I'm going to prove it to him. There's my top seventeen list of Marvel movies, Thor Ragnarok on top my favorite. Go check it out. I loved it. Maybe you will and take thanks for coming on. SAT really appreciate it. So just happened since I last saw you. I lost my armor like yesterday, sir, that's still pretty fresh. And

then I went on a journey of self discovery. I love you. What are we? You have no idea? Hello? The God has a God is invaded as God. Oh I've missed this and you and I have to find recently did I win? I won't easily. Some sound right? That's true. As God is dead, little be reborn in mine. I thought you big cla to see me. I need to stop her here now event riding rock at the end of everything, Son putting together a team at the old day. Surprise, This would be such fun fight. He's

a fighter. Here we go. I'm not a queen or amongst death. When the God has a dead? What were you the god of? Again? M by the same you just a couple of hot headed foods. Yes, same, hook like fire, doy like water, kind of pers like fire, but hooked like raging fire, toy like smoldering fire.