Ep43 - Willem Dafoe / "The Florida Project"

My guest today stars as Bobby, the kind hearted manager of the property, and it's one of his best roles in a long and illustrious career that has brought him two Oscar nominations. But I don't want to speak for him on that. His name is a Willem Defoe and he's right here, so let's ask him. First of all, William, thanks for doing the show. Would you say this is one of your best roles? Not for me to say, but certainly enjoyed it and it's a beautiful movie, and uh,

the role surprised me. Not for you to say. If it's not for you to say, who's who's for me to say. Other people, let's see it. Maybe that's if it's one of your best performances, but certainly when you read the role, you had to have. You know, when I read the role, I looked at the whole project, and I guess, uh, I was surprised what Bobby became in the doing of it. You know, sometimes sometimes you don't know until you do it what a role becomes.

And those are sometimes the best experiences because you're not reaching or controlling too much. You're letting things happen. And Sean Sean Baker, the director, made a situation where he invites things to happen. He was working from a small script, but there was a degree of improvisation and also capturing things that were happening happening in the making of it that really connected it in a in a way that

you could never have in a screenplay. Yeah, well, then if it's not necessarily there on the page from the beginning, your trust in him is a big part of the equation. I shouldn't imagine it is. And that's you know, that's key relationship between actors and directors. Trust, you know, because if you don't, if you don't give over and take the lead, nothing's ever going to happen except for what

you know is going to happen. You're limited to what you know and what you can control, and usually the best movies come out from it, come from a place where you can imagine them. Yeah. Sure, we'll talk about Sean a little bit, but just in terms of this role, it's it's an interesting, uh part, because you're kind of the central node. I mean you you are sort of the recognizable uh star, the recognizable face amid these unknowns and some non actors. Even so, uh, I think that

must have been a unique thing for you. Um, yes, well no, because I'm making enough I'm making enough films, let's say overseas where you know, you're working with actors from you know, a country that doesn't have the same kind of distribution that American films have. So I may be the best known actor in that group. So that's not unusual. But it is true that it's a situation where, um, the company is made up of people that have been

cast from the street, people have been casted from Instagram. Uh. There's some professional actors, there's some new professional actors, there's some kids, and then you know there's also me and I've been around for a little while. Um, but it's always the same on some level that even even in an industry movie, even in a studio film, sometimes you're working with people from very different backgrounds and very different trainings. I'm always struck that it in in in the profession

of acting, particularly for Americans. Uh, there isn't a uniformity of training or a uniform methodology. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing at all. In fact, I think mixing it up helps because, Um, then with each project you really have to to find what your processes and you also have to find out how to fit in with everybody and make the world so it doesn't become about you. It becomes about the thing that you're making,

and that frees you. Yeah, well let's talk about that. Uh, that environment with these other actors, this atmosphere, I mean, was it uh trying? Was it electric? Was it? Did it take you back to your roots at all? Like had a little bit, you know, it's like a family, you know, and all film sets are like that a little bit. But these were people that this wasn't same old, same old. There was a cynical one in the lot

because it was a new, exciting experience for them. And then also it was conditioned by the fact that we were shooting in a real place. So as extras, Uh, you're having people that are really living this life, this life that the story that we're telling is about. So they helped root the story as well in a reality. Um and for me playing the character, it was kind of wild because we're working in functioning motel. It's still functioning. I mean sometimes we had to stop a scene because

someone was checking into the motel. Inter just take the whole building. We took the whole building over, I mean, you know for certain, but in terms of you didn't like shut it down like people. It was still functioning. It was still functioning, and it would be literally like, oh, we gotta shoot that scene, so the real manager would have to leave the room. I'd slide in there and we'd play the scene. Did you ever just try to like, hey, let me bone up, let me let me check these

these guys out. Well, that's what I was doing. Uh, talk about that too, like preparing for the role. Did you go down there and and hang out with guys that have managed hotels and stuff like this. That's exactly what they did because it was the natural thing. You know, your preparation is always different, but almost always you've gotta do the thing that makes you feel like you own it, you know, gives you kind of the confidence and the authority to do the pretending and say I am this guy.

So the first thing you want to do is find out really who these people are in the story and find some models or you know, find the reality of it. So I see these guys, I I talked to some of these guys, and you know, I check out how they're dressed. You know, whether they got a wedding ring on, whether they're wearing any jewelry. You know, what their sunglasses are like, what their style is, how do they carry themselves, how they talk about themselves, how they talk about them

their past. That all feeds into your imagination and gives you so to make you form a picture. So you take in that information and then you mix it a little bit with you some of how you're feeling, and the character is sort of born out of that. But I think the real takeaway that was consistent with the people that I talked to that was interesting to me was these are pretty funky motels, but these guys try really hard to make it nice and they're really they're

really committed to their work. And it's sort of a beautiful expression of a working class guy working in a challenging situation that feels a responsible responsibility for other people, a pride in what he does, and he tries to make things better that impulse, that's a very human impulse to help, which often gets smothered in a lot of other things. And as I say it, maybe it sounds a little too sweet, but there's a tough side to that too. Absolutely, it sounds like a skeleton key frankly

to figuring out who this guy might be. But it's it was interesting for that so really surprisingly, uh, the script was beautiful, but I couldn't tell who Bobby was just from the script. And Bobby was really kind of born out of these encounters and the script and improvisation

and from dealing with the other characters. Because the cool thing is, he had to wear so many hats, you know, he had to be a father, he had to be a brother, he had to be a cop, he had to be a bill collector, he had to be a plumber, he had to be a comforter, he had to be a protector. All those things, and that kind of sounds like a too much, Like what kind of character could encompass all those but without a big dramatic scene of some big transformation. The incredible thing was, you know he

really does all those things. Yeah, and that's kind of stuff he probably learned on the job too. It's not like a skills that you come to the job with. It's it's from doing the job. And and and the other cool thing is he's he's not extraordinary. He's probably not great pump plumber. He's probably done keep books very well. And he's certainly no uh genius at you know, psychology dealing ex exactly. Just but he's big hearted and I think that's that's in the end, what what kind of

makes him interesting? Yeah? Yeah, talking about shooting on location there, I'm always curious how landscape effects performance, and this one in particular, because first of all, what time of year did you shoot? It was summer, so it was sweltering. It was you know, in the afternoon, these clouds rolling, you get these dramatic thunderstorms, lightning crazy. Then you know, uh, it was hot. The physical condition shooting in the real

place conditions everything. It informs everything. You know, how you feel, how your clothes hang on, you, your moods, it's a big deal. Yeah, probably how you walk exactly as getting to you. And just the look of the film is so beautiful, to capturing this kind of central Florida past dull thing. And this is where I want to talk about Sean because if everybody hasn't seen Sean's other film, previous film Tangerine, they should shot on an iPhone. Looks beautiful.

This film looks beautiful. Very brilliant filmmaker. And just talk to me about working with him and and how particularly anything you might have observed with him working with the children, because that's a difficult task as a director. He okay, first about the children. Uh, he rehearsed quite a bit with them. And he also he's a very kind person and has very gentle um, sweet mannered person and I

think he really made these kids feel comfortable. He also his partner, Samantha Kwan, is an actress and she also worked with them more or less as an acting coach. But when I say acting coach, just teaching them how to be feel free, to pretend, and and he would structure things so they felt comfortable. Uh they weren't. This wasn't an actor's boot camp. It was really about having them learning how they could play with these characters. And he was very good at that. Uh, anytime anyone got tight,

he would find a way. Uh. It wasn't just a question of cutting around them or tricking them. He would adjust things in such a way that, um, they would they would feel free and they and they wouldn't be self conscious, they wouldn't think of themselves as actors. You know. He gave them fun things to do. Little girls in Brooklyn. Yeah, she's amazing and she she is uh at six years old. She said she started doing her first work at two. I mean I think she did her first work the

second she came out of her womb, mother's womb. She's she's a stone called performer, you know, and she's a firecracker. She's smart, and she's she's interesting and has a good imagination. So she was very important and Sean was very lucky to find her. He found her through fairly traditional you know, through a local really talent agent because she had like representation. And at six years old, you know, she's embarking on

a career. She's got it. She does. And Bria, who plays her mother, was that's that's one of the Instagram castings, right, She's was cast from Instagram. And I thought she was fantastic. The first time I saw her, I had no interaction with her until I played a scene with her, and I remember just accepting her as the character. I did have a little question, where did they find this woman? I thought, she's not an actress. But she's not not an actress either, because she was performing very well. She

she inhabited this role. Her life isn't that life. She's all tatted out and all that, you know, but she's not from that world. But she had some deep understanding of it, and I thought she was really exceptional. I guess it's that authenticity that you strive for as an actor,

and you just have it in spades. From yeah, you know that the outside world, it becomes specific, the outside world, the outside references, the pointing outside of the movie goes away because you're just watching what's going on, and and it's substantial because it feels a whole h and and that comes when you know you you get rid of a certain kind of careerism, a certain kind of egotism, a certain kind of consciousness of this being your life or having it be about you if you can find

your ways to trick your self into submitting to a story and and you know, agreeing to leave your life and enter another one. And it does take some tricks because we're not we're not trying to do that. We're trying to buy all you know, by all accounts, you know, shore up who we are. But if you can find ways to do that, beautiful thing happens, and that's when you start making something. And I think Sean got the

right people together. He cast beautifully and he had a very um He had a very sensitive but also tough and scrappy crew that was able to you know, work with any funky bumps that we had because people weren't slick. Yeah, that's certainly key on this and all Zabe d P. I mean he's fantastic. I mean, if you know the two Regatdess films, he made beautiful and he's also shot some really cool music videos. He kind of does both ends of the spectrum. This is a beautiful movie, I mean,

just the sun kissed nature of it all. And just did he was he the DP on Tangerine as well? Do you remember? But he I name dropped the Carloss for Goddess films because they're extraordinary silent light and also tend to brass post tender brass looks. Cinephile will a little bit, A little bit, I've always wondered that about you. Actually, I mean I like movies a lot um but you know, when I get busy, sometimes I don't have enough time to see what I want to see. But when I

have time, like I I watch, I prefer films. And when I have time, I'd rather read a book, listen to music or um or watch movies. Um. I just haven't gotten into TV. And occasionally someone will say I'll check this out. I'll watch it, and I'll say, Okay, I get what's attractive, and I could do that, but it's just a choice. I sure. You know. It's like vanilla and chocolate, and they are different, they are differently. I also want to mention you're appearing in Murder on

the Rain Express this year as well. I wanted to mention that because that arrives in November, and it's fascinating to me because here in Florida projects you're sounded by unknown murder, you're surrounded by some of the world I forgot about that. It's really true. You got Johnny Depp and Judy Dench and Michelle Peife for just as who's who. It looks I haven't seen the film me. I'm looking forward to It looks very stylized. Kenneth Browna directed it.

What was that experience? Really good? Um? You know, it's funny though when I think about it, but the problems are kind of the same because they may be movie stars, but they come from very different places. In a funny way, you know, there's no uniformity the experience, which is the good news. Um, it was great. An incredible cast. Kenneth Brandon. I have so much respect for him, particularly after working with him. He's incredible and incredible smart. Uh, he takes

care of his people. He knows obviously he's an actor. He knows how to, um help actors with what they need to do. And then this incredible thing of the way the film is structured. You know, you have all these people around all the time, kind of as as the world and sometimes maybe not that much to do, not big scenes to play, and then occasionally they have

their interrogation seeing or a few other things happen. But you're hanging around a lot and you're hanging around with Derek, Jacko B and Judy Dance and Johnny and you know, it's and people were really cool about that, And I think a lot had to do with their respect for Ken and his how he treats people, and also out of them had worked with Ken, and also uh a

lot with theater people. And the truth is there. The people get used to you know, uh, they get a little more used to being they're supporting other actors and and then when it's time for them to step up and uh, you know, go forward and do their area, they do it, and then they go back into the chorus you know. Uh, so we're trained for that a little bit more. But it was it was really good to see actors work like that in a kind of um beautiful teamwork. Well, the material kind of dixated it.

It does, it does, but you know some people would just say, Okay, yeah, I do this. You can get this later. But you know, you could you could cut up in pieces. But it was fun. It was fun cool looking forward to that, and also wanted to touch on Aquaman, not deeply, but just I'm sort of fascinated by this because in terms of the like the modern comic book movie landscape. You were there at the beginning with Spider Man fifteen years ago. Can you believe that?

I can't. That's a long time ago. And now here you are in the DC machine and so you've seen I assume maybe a a evolution to wherever it might be now. And I'm just curious how those two experiences compare and contrast. It's a good question. Uh, I'm not sure. I'm quite able to really express, you know, really much about it right now. You know, Spider Man was at the beginning. Uh Uh, they're very different. Because I had to talk about the two specific movies. They both have

big challenges technically. Spider Man, there were a lot of mechanical effects. You know, there are a lot of c G I of course, but we were doing a lot of mechanical things, a lot of on wires and things like that. Also an Aqua Man, because it's an underwater world, there's lots of challenges. How do you create that underwater world. And to create that underwater world, it's going to be much a collaboration between post stuff and stuff that we

create and mechanically give them. So we're you know, we don't walk on the ground. We float and we fly and we swim. You know, so that created real challenges. UM one link and I made it before, and someone picked it up and really ran with it because I don't read these things usually, but I saw it in the press. Um James One is and and Sam Raimi. They're both personal filmmakers. You know, they aren't they aren't industry uh you know, go to you know, they really

have a strong personal stamp. And James One and they both have a good sense of play and a good sense of detail. And they come from the handmade world, and they come from the handmade world, and they come from the horror world. And you know, the beautiful thing about horror movies is, you know the film language is very rich, you know, because you can get away with it because you're there's a fantastical quality. But also you have the possibility to make a popular movie because it's

in a very accessible UM form genre. So those two are linked a little bit. Uh the rules are slightly different, you know. In in Aquaman, I play like Aquaman's mentor, and I'm also advisor to the rival king basically. Uh so there's some sort of political intrigue and there's a little Obi Wan can all be in there too, you know. Um, so it's it's it's it's interesting. I just finished a

couple of days ago. They're still shooting for about another month. Um. Uh good cast, uh, great, great art, direction and costumes. So we'll see, we'll see. Did you have any idea when you did Spider Man that these movies will become such a driving force in this industry? No idea. I mean even when even I mean the box office around that movie was a huge story at the time, but even still it's like compared them to now and the

top twenty box office grossers domestically worldwide, even superhero movies. Yeah, so yeah, you know, I think I think there are stories that you know, they translate to different cultures because they they're they they've got broad, broad storylines and their their fantasy, so they aren't so culturally bound as as you know, a family drama or a social drama or

a comedy. And their visual and their muscular uh. And that's why they can play because in Indonesia, you know, they may have a film industry, but they can't make movies with those kinds of fleets. So if you want to see that kind of movie, you know, that's where it's happening. I think, um, yeah, you know, The Spider Man was very particular because it was a very most story, and that's kind of a team coming of age story, so it's very different than some of these other stories.

And it was very character based. And actually, even though there were action set paces, it was very built on character. It was very hung up, hung on that Peter Parker character and the relationship between his friend, that James Franco character and his father. And yeah, I think I don't recognize that so much in the Superhero universe because now there's relationships between they're almost like corporate relationships, you know exactly. Uh, you're always working. I was looking at your keeps Me

out of Trouble. I was looking at your credits into Trouble just to kind of bone up on some things, and I forget some of the things that you just kind of show up in. It's like, oh yeah, well in defos in this like current present danger, there you are you English patient. There you are American psycho. Uh you're very prolific. Uh. I think you've become frankly something of a ubiquitous presence. That's good, That's good, okay, But I just you know, do you love the work that much?

Is at the end of here. I do. And also I think you know, actors need practice. You know, acting is acting, it's doing and uh I you know, I in a funny way, I'm very careful about what I do because and you may think this is being I'm being coy here, but I really mean it. I'm not the kind of actor that if my heart isn't into it, I can you know, finace it in, not just phone

it in. I don't have that kind of craft. I have strong instincts and I do you know, I do have things that I can do, many things I can do, but I don't have a go to thing. And any time that I get near that, I get a little nauseous. Um. I don't like doing it. I don't feel strong, I feel dishonest, and I don't feel turned on. Then it feels like work, work in the pejord of sense. You know, it's hard work. Um. So I like to work when

I'm social. I like I like adventures, I like to travel, I like to inhabit different things, and I like to feel useful and and there's something beautiful about going someplace, meeting some people, getting to know them, having an objective, having to figure it out, creating something, then letting it fly, then moving on to the next thing. Yeah. Well, uh, whenever I get overwhelmed with questions I might have more movies, I wanted to end up just making a list of movies.

So what the time I have left here? I just wanted to hit a couple here first and foremost. I think Last Temptation of Christ looms very large in your portfolio. What I was left wondering is have you seen Martin Scorsese Silence from last year? I have, I have. What did you think of that? I like it? I'm I think there's a funny thing in the story itself. And this may just be me. It's like I kept on wanting to say, guys, just step on the thing, let

the guys go away, and then go back to worshiping. Um. I think the last third of the movie is is better than the first two thirds. Um. That's just my opinion. And the reason I asked is just because you know, I interviewed film a schoonmaker years ago and she was talking about how the last temptation, couldn't do it in Silence that they had coming up at the time. We're kind of a religious trilogy of sorts. So it was a fascinating movie to me. I agree with much of

what you said. The first third is beautiful. Um, you know, once you see where the Liam Neeson character ended up, and uh, you know the end, that last image is gorgeous. I joked with Rodrigo Prieto, I was like, did they have any fog machines left a pen when? But it was all real turned out Finding Nemo and Finding Dory huge box office. I feel like those movies, especially the first one. It was the biggest Pixar movie for years

and never it was my favorite one too for years. Uh. I just wanted to know about working with the Pixar crew and then you went and fantastic. You know when I for the first when I went to do Finding Nemo, um, it was a little utopia, you know. And uh, Andrew Stanton knows stories so well. He really he was kind of in on the ground floor on Pixar, so he I just these people were all turned on. They were helping each other, They understood research and development. Uh, they

took their time. Uh. They were kind of their own masters. Um uh. And to work with him was great because you would just sit you know, you're doing a voice, so basically you'd sit in a room and it was calling in response. You know, you'd lay something out, he'd suggest something, you'd try to hit it. Then he'd come back at you. You come back at him, you come back.

It was like a tennis match, you know. And he's a clever guy, and he'd always set it up in a way that could inspire you to find different readings. So it was always just about playing with the text and then they'd go back and then bring you back again and find it. There was lots of refinement and a lot of um testing, but I mean not like

testing with an audience, testing among themselves. A lot of experimentation, which is pretty wild when you think about these widely commercial movies being made in a spirit of experimentation, at least experimentation to find the find the story, you know. Um So that was fantastic. And I also worked with him on John Carter, which of course you know was kind of spanked um even before it opened. I might say it was one of those movies that just because

of marketing or timing or something. It didn't see the light of day. But I enjoyed that too. He's a he's great with story, he's um, he's got a good film culture. I liked working with him a lot. And Finding Dory became their highest grossing movie when it came out, So hopefully they realized by now that you're the secret and greener tell him, Uh, it's funny to go from Pixar the body of evidence. That's okay. But what I'm curious about with that film, which you know, became infamous.

But it was an interesting time in Madonna's career. So what was she like at that time? She was cool. I gotta be honest. I liked her a lot. I liked her work ethic. She was fun. I think it was tough the reception of the movie, which wasn't bad everywhere really um, some places it played quite well, um, but here not so well. In the UK not so well. Uh, sort of a little ridiculed. I think it had a lot to do with you know, she just reached maximum saturation.

That was about the time that a sex book was coming out. She was making a really kind of racy, good racy videos and it was like I really had the sense that people are like enough enough enough for your clothes. Back on, um, there was a backlash, I thought, and what what started out as a kind of courtroom drama, kind of old fashioned really noir with with some sex, you know, and that uh you know, got misread and it was held up as you know, kind of imitation

of usurance Stone one. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think it was intended as that maybe maybe fooled. Well. They were contemporary. I mean that you were probably making that when whenever Basic Constant came out, so it's not like, you know, you're taking notes go back and make your movies. So yeah, and I like the part that I basically had the woman's partner. She had the part, which I thought was pretty brave and kinky, but totally I was doing the man's part, but I had the woman's part,

you know what I mean, exactly exactly. And then I wanted to close by talking about the two films you've been nominated for by the Academy, starting with Shadow of the Vampire. You know, I talked about Florida being you know, a big role for you and your career. This must have ranked right up there to just just sink your teeth and so to speak into a role like this great role, you know it was It was fun because

you had this this perfect model. I could copy the original film because I was playing a character that existed, uh, A clever script, a fun script, very imaginative director. And then just from an acting point of view, I had this beautiful mask. And also I always love I always work from a place of physicality, and this was one where I could really dance it. You know, I could have other than natural gestures because he was a creature.

Really even though he was a a man. Basically I could have a lot of fun with is how he carried himself and how he gestured those sorts of things. Play with the voice, you had an accent, you you weren't recognizable physically, you had a whole language. There were

so many things to play with. And when you have those things and you connect with them, they really take you away in in a in a good way, take you to a place where you're kind of open to be fluid, and when you're playing a scene, you really hear things, and when you really get impulses, you can really act on them because you're not censoring anything because you're in such a place of comfort, in such a place of being kind of hyper sensitive, and yeah, you're

in a good You're in a good You're where you're supposed to be. You've got nothing to do except for do and it happens. So that was that was really a fun role to do. And finally Platoon, which you know, thirty years now, thirty one years, it's crazy. Every time I talked to VIETNAMVAD and just happen to talk about Vietnam movies, this is the one they always say with the most realistic. Uh. It was a huge splash for you early in your career. So what what was that

like to have such a major success early on. Well, first of all, it was great fun to make, and you were working with people that were very committed. They were telling a personal story. We're shooting the Philippines with a lot of guys that it was their first movie or one of their first movies. I hadn't made so many movies. We were a bunch of kids, you know, and then we were also kids that never served. But some of us, like the older ones, grew up with

World War Two movies. So there was this kind of World War Two movies, but then we had the specter of Vietnam and Korea as well. So you've got all that in your head, and now you're meeting these uh Vietnam vets who had been through it, and they we were enlisted to tell their story. So it was a huge responsibility, but it was also a huge challenge, and they helped us because they they helped root things by

teaching us how to be soldiers. And often people talk about preparation and it's kind of like a bragging about you know, you know, I worked hard, so get on my assid My my performance was chetty because I did the homework. You know, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about. They really taught, They really trained us, and that boot camp thing has been replicated since, but I think it was very special and it was a new thing and it transformed us and it was exciting.

The bonding that we had and the kind of fantasy about those high stakes and the tragedy of that war were all um what we were playing with. So it was exciting to shoot and then really gratifying that a little movie that took almost ten years to make, a personal movie, a movie that was about Vietnam, when Vietnam

movies at that time were more rambom esque than Platoon esque. Um, it was great to see it, Uh, find an audience, find some a critical uh support, and then a popular support, and particularly support among Vietnam vets, and then ultimately industry support. With the best picture of victory and all of you. So, uh, I could go on and on with you, but we better wrap it up. And speaking of Platoon, you and Johnny Johnny had a small role in that film, but

back together again in Murder on the Ore Express. That's November ten. The Florida Project comes out October six, which I believe will have already happened by the time this year, so it's I think it um its open platform platform release. I think by the end of October it will be nationwide. Go see it. It's an amazing little film. Uh. Willem Dafoe, thank you for coming. Alright, a pleasure. Thanks. He gave the rest it a lot the ones we're not supposed to go in, but let's go anyway you give us.

The doctor said, we have as well. We got to got a situation here. Open up. It's only the second week of the summer and there's already been a dead fish in the pool. We're trying to get it back alive. Water bloom strong at tourists found it's a mother money you want? You're just grace new job. Yeah, if you're working, who's looking after money? You're not my father. I don't want to treat me like you. Don't think everybody knows what sup really? Everybody she's about to crying. I can

always tell one a daughters were about to cry. Why my mom? Y just calcome good summer, see I could young step far. Let's go come up. I'm startry. I love you too,