Ep38 - Scott Cooper / "Hostiles"

Jeff Bridges a long overdue and well deserved Oscar. He went on to make what I think is a highly underrated film two thousand thirteens, Out of the Furnace with Christian Bale, Casey Affleck, Willem Dafoe, Woody Harrelson, the late great Sam Shepard, an embarrassment of riches on that cast. He followed that up with Black Mass starring Johnny Depp as Boston gangster Whitey Bulger. His new film is the emotionally draining Western Hostile, starring Bailee Rosamond Pike, and West

Study among many others. The film will premiere to Tell You Right Film Festival later this weekend before heading up to Toronto in about a week. Scott, thanks for coming on the show man. Thanks Chris, great to be here. I want to start with your past life as an actor. Yatch watch your X Files episode this morning. What I would love to show my Kids that titled rush as I recall, Yeah, it's heavy actually that you get to play an X files villein at the height of that

show's popularity. Yes, uh, as I recall young serial killer who um has daddy issues and and uh, David Dukovany brings him to justice. That was. Yeah, that was that was a lot of fun. Actually, I think Vince Gilligan maybe I wrote that episode really certainly was was a writer on the show. Yeah, two Virginians. Yeah, totally. Well, you know, just your life as an actor. You're an

actor for about ten years or so. Uh, and and what I guess did you retain of that that helped you parlay into your career as a filmmakers The question, Well, it's a good question and one that I'm asked often. Um. I did have an unremarkable career as an actor, but out of that came a lot of great relationships. One of them would be my work with Robert Duval, who has become a great friend and confidante, and um, someone who sees early cuts of my films, reads early drafts

of my screenplays. And we had done a film just after that called Gods in Generals, and we talked a lot about the craft of of acting, and Mr Duval always felt that even great actors overly complicated their characters and what they thought they needed to bring to each part and more importantly, to each moment. And he always said to me that acting begins at zero and ends at zero. Have no idea where you're going to take

the scene. If you come to a scene with preconceived notions that you've worked out in your trailer or in your hotel room the night before, then you're going to give a very emotionally stunted performance and you aren't going to be open to listening to other actors, which is the most important part of acting, certainly is is listening

and responding, and to do it in a very subtle fashion. UM. He also recommended that I watch a lot of documentaries, certainly older documentaries that that before people became really comfortable with the camera, because now everybody has a camera and everybody's essentially on and there's so many reality TV shows

that are anything but but real. UM. And one of them that's probably one of my all time favorite films was UM Barbara Copples Harlan County, USA, and I just thought the behavior in that film and stakes of that film are incredible, a masterpiece, and and really I just have taken what little experience I had as an actor, but most importantly that with Mr Duval and channel that into my work and never really over complicating my direction to actors. And I also like to give direction two

actors when nobody else can hear that direction. I think actors, as most performers are, sometimes can be can be insecure. So anytime that a director and I've had them do that bark out direction the entire crew to here, I think is is the wrong way to do it. And I really revere actors. I respect actors immensely. It takes a lot of artistic courage to really bear their souls for the lens and hopefully for a receptive audience. Um So I take great pains to make sure that actors

are very comfortable. Is that unusual too? It's to do private kind of counsel like that. I found it to be. Yeah, But but I think it's certainly the way I like to work. Um So that I have a very genuinely intimate relationship with the actor because as an actor, I know the difficulty in trying to bring a character to life. Uh. And certainly the material that I have have chosen to make and to write is sometimes psychologically more challenging than others.

And I ask a lot of actors on an emotional level, um, and in some way an intellectual level, UM, because they the actors that I that I that I work with, tend to embody their characters in ways that maybe other actors don't, and through that their character stays with them even after I call cut. I really like to do most of my work obviously between action and cut. But but um, once we call cut, and sometimes the work stays with them when they go back to their hope

tells or to their homes. And and that can be taxing for an actor. And uh, and I'm very cognizant of that. And and again I really revere them. Have you ever been tempted to cast yourself any of these movies? No, I haven't. I mean, I think it's enough to direct and produce them. Funnily, Jeff Bridges asked me when we were he and I were reading through the script of

Crazy Heart if I would play his son. At one time, Heath Ledger was going to play that and Heath unfortunately passed and and um, and I said, Jeff, they're far better choices than I. I said, and you know, having never directed anything, this is this is gonna be enough for me just to to direct the film right at producing it didn't have much money. And um, and then Duval has asked me a couple of times too, being some things with him. But I I really feel like

I've found what I'm best at, what I'm better at. Yeah, well, when you set off to this new career and and and uh, you know what, just broadly speaking, I'm what I'm curious about is like what where your inspirations films specifically, filmmakers specifically, but also like what was not out there in the world that you wanted to put out there

in the world. Well generally, I UM, even when I was an actor, I tend to respond more to world cinema than American films, UM, because I think those films tend to be deeply humanistic, which is I hope what my work is. Um. The dar Damn Brothers really influenced me. UM. I love Karasawa's work, Michael Hannikey's work, and there's a

real humanity, uh saget ray in their work. Uh, that that I wanted that I felt like, certainly as an actor that was speaking to me, and then as a filmmaker and then one who became the father you you feel like you want to show an uncompromising and an

unvarnished truth that maybe is underrepresented in cinema. And I felt that I could take some of the things that I was feeling after I think we were all feeling somewhat of a post traumatic stress disorder after nine eleven in this this type of loss and harrowing loss, that that for some reason it affected what I was reading, what films I was attracted to, UM, what I ultimately

thought that I wanted to express UM. And then the economic crisis, which led to in a sense, out of the furnace, UM, people who who were really, really suffering, UM, who don't live in Los Angeles and New York, and I've spent a lot of time, and I'm from an area that's certainly not Los Angeles or New York, and I wanted to tell their stories. So I thought I could do that in a in a a very genuine way and and UM, and hope that I've ad shoot that hostiles. Uh, you know you know my affinity for

this genre. Uh, you were kind enough to invite me up to the set, which was a great time. I think it's really special to spend some time on a Western set because I just don't make a lot of these up there in Georgia O'Keefe country, the gorgeous landscapes, northern New Mexico coast ranch, yeah, about an hour north of Santa Fe. What does being in that environment do for you? Kind of put you in the zone, right, Well, yeah,

I have um ever since Crazy Heart, it's been critical. Actually, I won't make the film if if I don't shoot where I think the film either does take place or

should take place. I did shoot in New Mexico and Texas for Crazy Heart, uh still country of western Pennsylvania for Out of the Furnace, of course, Boston for Black Mass, And I felt that in telling this story, this journey from New Mexico to Montana, that I could shoot in New Mexico and then we went north into call Rato and it really abuse the production with a sense of place, the actors with a sense of place, because literally where

we were shooting at times twelve thousand feet above sea level, you really feel it, and you can see it in even the horses. Um, you can certainly see it in the actors and and at times quite a punishing shoot. But I think compared to what I know, compared to what people had to live through, this was this was nothing, um, but it really abused the the production with a sense of place, from production design to costumes, to camera, to sound,

certainly to the performers and the animals. And then you also, I mean, I haven't done myself any favors by making the film and the gangster genre and now in the Western genre. I think some of the best films ever made or in those two genres. So you're immediately climbing this huge mountain that you're in variably compared to the

best directors and best films ever made. But but for me, it felt like the only way to tell the story would have been the way that John Ford would have told the story, or Howard Hawks would have told it,

or Anthony Mann. So, um, I think it was the only way to do it was to do it in a very harsh setting that became softer as we went north, but um, no, less harsh, and you're at the whim of the elements the whole time, delays on set, whatnot, Lots of lots of rain, a lot of the monsoon season, lots of lightning, rattlesnakes if you bear um, psychologically challenging material horses, great actors who pushed you to become a

better director. Um. And working again with with Christian, who's you know, one of my closest friends is made it all the worthwhile. Yeah, talk a little bit about how this project came to you. It's somewhat on your dual. Yeah. Interestingly, I received a call that that that there was an older lady who had really liked my work and that she had something she thought that I should see and read.

And of course I thought that because Out of the Furnaces is a little more difficult to digest and say crazy Heart, Um, I thought she was referring to crazy Heart, And as it turned out she was was an admirer of Out of the Furnace, And that kind of piqued my interest, um, because that that was a film that, like most of mine, that are quite divisive, but but people really feel strongly one way or the other about

that film. So I appreciate that she that she liked what it was that I was attempting to say with with that film. And we spoke and she said, I have a piece of material that I think you should see. And I hear that often of course, um, and I generally like to write my own stories or I like to adapt things that have that that maybe can lead me into a direction of a story that I wanted to tell. And I said, well, I'd love to read it. And she told me, she said, well, what's written by

my late husband, Donald Stewart. And it didn't ring a bell um that he had won an oscar for Costa Goss's UH film Missing with m Jack Lemon and Sissy Space. And I said, well, you know, I'd love to read this. So she sent it over and it had a very compelling kind of seed of a story about UH, an aging cavalry officer who's tasked with escorting a group of

Native Americans home from New Mexico to Montana. And I felt that I could take that seed in eight two, when I had set the picture and make it feel more relevant and more current because of the racial vision that we are feeling as a nation, and I wanted to personalize the characters in the story in a way that would make it feel very current even though it was five years ago. And I told her us that

I think this, this is a really interesting piece. Um, how would you feel if I took just this as a as a as a launching point And she said great, she'd love it. So Um, that's how it came to me, and that's how it started. I didn't meet Donald Stewart. He died and and it's unfortunate because we certainly wouldn't have hostiles without him, and I think that that he

would be proud of what he originally envisioned. Yeah, and you got into my next question there, which was, you know, as I said, it found it to be a draining experience. The emotion kind of lodges in your throat from the first scene and does not relent even you know, once the catharsis of the film is complete. Really it sticks to your bones, as they say. But you know, the deals and themes of reconciliation and healing that I found

to be resonant. As you say, you wanted to speak to the modern climate, so I guess speak a little bit more about that. Yeah. When we set out to make the film, as I was writing it, I didn't foresee the division that that we now find ourselves in. UM. Certainly Donald Trump was was not UM. Certainly I didn't

take take it seriously that he would be our president. UM. But I think probably what I wasn't realizing as much as as I should have, because I lived in Virginia a long time ago, is that if you don't live in New York or l A or San Francisco or Boston, just just how deeply people are suffering and just how why the divide is between those people who have and those who don't. And I'm not quite sure or why I didn't understand it as fully as I as I

thought that I did. But as I was working on the screenplay and starting casting, and certainly as we were shooting, it became more apparent that these type of division, this type of division was was really really vast and and was um the topic of the day, and it certainly still is if you if you look at what just happened in Charlottesville, my my home state, just terribly tragic and slide, Yes, yeah, terribly tragic and and and sad.

So what I wanted to do with this film and it's it's always weird talking about themes and what it is you want to say, because you want the audience to take short away something from the film that you

don't have a director telling them what he meant. But I saw an opportunity to make a film about inclusion and understanding others, ways of lives, reconciliation, as you said, forgiveness, all these sort of things that we as Americans need, uh to better understand to make this country heal, because I don't think uh we even Robert Duval and I discussed this today, and of course he's much older than I am. He said he's never seen it this bad,

and and certainly I haven't. And my father said, this far exceeds even with Nixon and Vietnam, and and it's and it's a real shame and and and it's the politics of anger and hate that that's infiltrating this nation. And I just hope that a film like this can speak to the type of healing and inclusion that we as Americans need, because I fear for my children's future

if if, if in fact, we don't um. So hopefully this film through uh Christian Bale's character's journey of healing and understanding and without giving too much away, and and and reconciliation can speak to those people who have such disparate views. Speaking of Christian, Uh, he's up for a tribute this weekend at the Festival, much deserved. I think that's a big coup for the festival. Actually, he doesn't do those things too often. No, No, he doesn't. Christian

is is um probably the least selfish. And I'm not just saying this because he's my closest friend, but he's the least selfish actor I've ever worked with. He's a lot like uh, Jeff Bridges in fact, where the less you see of these men in public, the more likely you're going to believe what you see on screen. You don't see Christian doing television ads. You don't see him unless Paparassi become very crafty in any of these magazines. Um.

He tries not to be photographed. He he lives a very private life, is a wonderful husband and father, and and is solely devoted to his family and to his work. Um. So I was surprised that that he was open to celebrating his his career because he hey, he's still so young and he's been working though for thirty years. Um, but he doesn't normally like to call attention to himself. He likes his parts to speak for himself. UM. I'm just happy that that they're honoring his work because, um, he's,

for my tim bucks, the best actor working. Yeah, we'll talk about how that relationship sparked. I mean after Furnace, you guys we're looking for something else to do together. Obviously, as you say, you're close friends. Now, so just what sparked that relationship? Both you've spoken to professionally, I think your your admiration f him is clear, but just personally,

how does that relationship spark on that set? Well? Interestingly, people often say to me, wow, he must be extremely intense, Uh to work with or just just to just to hang around with. People tend to be somewhat intimidated by Christian. But he couldn't be a lighter guy. He has a great sense of humor. He's very funny. I'm not afraid to make fun of himself. Um, all these sort of things that people of course don't see because he's so

he's so private. So I know this deeply humanistic side of Christian, and I kind of tasked myself stupidly with writing for actors without even knowing knowing them. I wrote Crazy Heart for Jeff Bridges. I've never met Jeff, and just through a fate of luck, was able to get him to play the part of bad Blake. And I wrote Out of the Furnace for Christian long at my Christian thought that he was the only guy to embody this,

and thankfully he said yes. Um and I like to see actors in ways that you rarely see them, and I hope that that I, together Christian and I have shown a side of him and Out of the Furnace that that people hadn't quite seen before, and I think that can speak for his part in Hostiles. UH great range Um fully embodies the character. There are a few actors that you see on screen that you really believe can do what you're seeing them do. Christian, there's no question.

And what you see him do the way he rides a horse, the way he uh moves into battle, the way that he takes care of his men, or Rosamund Pike uh young widow whom he meets on the trail. Um, because I know Christian is a deeply, deeply humanistic person.

Um and there's a sense of trust there that's critical for an actor and a director, but when you're closest friends as we are, UH, there's a sense of trust that Christian knows that I will only show him in the light that he intends that I intend, and in a way that will fully embellish the character in a way that that that I perhaps didn't write. And that's what great actors do. They take they take writing, whether

it's good or not, and they completely elevated. And Christian does that with every moment, and I know that he's going to do that. UM. And there's just a sense of trust that we have as as close friends that it comes from spin ending countless hours together when we aren't working in our families, vacation together. We we spent a lot of time together as families and UH. And it certainly makes the work UM that much richer. And certainly what another thing I learned from Jeff Bridges is

it's it isn't the result of the film. How it does is that the box office I thought that really means a lot to me. But certainly with awards and those sort of things, it's it's about the experience that you've had and I've had two incredible experiences with Christian that that will not be easily surpassed. You mentioned Rosamond there. I think some people might think it was Gone Girl that led to this casting decision, but it wasn't talk about that because I think this is interesting. No, I've

always admired her work. US incredible actors, lots of range, and you can see this very fierce intelligence um that radiates on screen. But I happened to come across a massive attack video and and I was mesmerized by her performance, very fearless performance. And however long this video is six minutes long. Of course, I was well aware of her work, and I sent it to Christian. I said, I think this is our Rosalie, almost certain this is our Rosalie

character she portrays in Hostiles. And Christian wrote back, oh my god, it's perfect. She's incredible, And it was just in those moments. Of course, no dialogue, and there isn't a great deal of dialogue and Hostiles um that you could see a real resilience and strength, but in a very odd way that doesn't quite jump out at you in this particular video. So then I asked to skype with her a center whatever my latest draft was, and

and she really responded to that. But while we were skyping, she lives in London, her children, her young her young boys were climbing all over her. And what I loved is that she didn't have them sequestered away somewhere, but allowed them while we're skyping, to just play with her. And she would talk to them while we were skyping. Of course, we've never met, and she was so maternal, and I could see her that this deep love that she had for her children, as you know, as most

mothers would. But I just happened to see that in this particular skype session, and I thought, for someone who's going to suffer great loss as she does in the film, um, she clearly exhibits that, not only in her other work, but certainly in these few moments skyping. And then of course this massive attack video that I think is pretty genius. The physicality on display in that video too, I mean it's just a commitment. You can really sense. Yeah, she's

she's an extremely committed actress. I mean, she did tell me it was the most difficult film that that she had made, but um, she never complained. And then I'd love to talk about Sam Shepard a little bit. She don't mind, Sam, I mean we lost him recently. Well you know, obviously one of the greats uh was in your film Out of the Furnace and I'm so bummed I never got to meet this man. But what did Sam Shepherd mean? Do you? Because I understand you guys

are very close. Oh Sam, I mean that's you know, clearly haven't gotten over and I and I won't get over to I wearing a jacket now that he gave me. Um that yeah, Chris, well, um, I'll never forget. When I sent him Out of the Furnace, his agent called me and said, so, Sam's going to call you. She didn't tell me whether he had read the script. Sam's gonna call you, and you're going to see a number

from Paris come up on your cell phone. It's like, oh my god, of course Sam Shepherd's calling me from Paris. This is this just makes perfect sense. And the first thing he said to me, he said, well, this seems like a cousin to Barry Child and I love this title I'm in And I literally couldn't fill my legs at that point. And then he went on to say what he liked about the writing, and and and of course then we made the film together, which was an

incredible experience. Sam come into me once after a scene with Christian and Sam suit, wow, that guy's good. I said, yes, Sam, he is. And he had he had made Jesse James, the Fascination of Jesse James with Casey. So they were pals. So we're really it it. It made a very difficult film, very heavy film, much much lighter. And and then I screened the film for him when I had finished, and I was nervously waiting outside the theater in New York.

And he came out, and he had had had visibly been moved, and and he embraced me, and he said, he said, um, you know, he said, well we're two p's in a pod. He said, Kendred Spirits, that I love it. And for for a man who didn't speak much, that probably not more to me than almost anybody. Um. Then we stayed close after that, and he would read screenplays. We would talk about horses. He had a farm in Kentucky, in a ranch in Santa Fe and and he would

watch he watched Black Masks. We chatted about that. We would talk about politics, were talking about literature. Uh. He would invite me to see some of the work he was working on. UM. I would read some of his his his work, and it really was this great relationship. And he and he gave me a book UM that he inscribed, Cruising Paradise. And then he also gave me a book of letters between him and Joseph chacken Um

from the seventies and eighties. And I reread those letters often, and and those letters speak to a man who's a national treasure, who's one of our great artistic minds, a man of real courage and can fiction, and UM, a man who won't be replaced. What I find fascinating about that whole situation is no one knew he was suffering, No he and suffering the way he did. I mean, I've I've been told and read that that's probably, you know, the worst way one can die when you suffer from

a L. S luke Eric's disease. And and how difficult that is because your mind so sharpen, your body is just starting to atrophy. And and Sam, but he he never really uh, he never really complained. And and you know that really said a lot to me, for sure. Uh. And then lastly, here to the extent that you can or want to talk about your next project, which has been announced, it's Hell Helms on his trail about Martin

Luther King's assassin, James Earl Ray. Uh. You know we were talking earlier about reconciliation and hate, and I mean, you know, the answer to this question kind of seems obvious, but I'm just gonna ask, why make this movie? Right? Well? Uh? If not now? When um, clearly, UM, what Dr King meant to me, meant to me and so many others can be easily drowned out by the very loud voices of hate that that have a much larger megaphone now

than they have in the in the very recent past. Um, I certainly want to honor his legacy, what he meant to UM, the non violent struggle, because regardless of what some people say they're there, there's the non violent struggle, and then there's the other side. Right then we all know what that means, UM, and I want to honor what he what he meant to someone like me, to

his followers. And also when I was was nine years old, I was at my grandfather's farm in Tennessee and was around midnight one night, and his hunting dogs were baying loudly embarking, and next thing you know, there are red lights and blue lights and state troopers and FBI and and state police all converging on my grandfather's farm and we all run outside, and the state trooper says to my grandfather, he says, some men have escaped from Brushy

Mountain State Prison, which is quite a ways away, and they've stolen your truck and they've crashed it. And we have him treated among those men as James Earl Ray. And I thought to myself, my gosh, how close I was to a man who was forever altered the course of history. And I will, of course, in no way, UM paint this man in any light other than than what he deserves to be painted in. UM. And it's it's certainly not a difficult No, it's not an easy

film to make. It's it's quite difficult, UM. But I think I have a handle on the material too, to tell in a very sensitive fashion and one that can really speak to the times in which we lived. Because James Earl Ray was really influenced by the rise of the demagogue named George Wallace. And he gave a lot of people permission to speak through hatred and bigotry and violence. That one obviously has come together quickly here in the last few months. But what else on the horizon for you?

What are you? What are you hoping to make? What do you want to launch into? Well, I've I've long wanted to make h William steinn adaptation of Lie Down on Darkness that, um, I'm very fond of. But that's that's a very difficult project and finding the right casting is critical and um and perhaps I was not as fearless as I should have been trying to make it sooner,

but perhaps, um, perhaps at at some point. But it appears that hell Hound on his trail is is is going to be next in the process of refining the script and and casting now. And I don't mean just to sound disrespectful, but is there do you want to go easier on yourself? Well, my wife often asks that question, just emotionally speaking. You know, Chris, I'm not quite sure why I'm drawn to the darker recesses of the human psyche. Um, but I know that there's a kid's movie in me somewhere,

and it's not Battle Royale. Well, let's get that. One of these days. The movie is called Hostiles. It will be out, uh, you know sometimes it's fall. Uh. It's on the market, actually on one of the hot acquisition titles, so keep an eye out for that. It's playing Tell You're Right this weekend in Toronto next week thanks to Lot Scott coming on real appreciated, great pleasure, Chris, Thank you, buddy, Eat, Eat and Fair.