Ep26 - James Mangold / "Logan"

but I don't think you can. I was doing an interview with German TV yesterday and they were like, you know, would you consider this, like, you know, the biggest thing to ever happen at the Oscars? And I was like, uh yeah, hands down, without doubt. Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those things like I still can't really believe it happened. Me too. I woke up this morning and like double checked. I've rewatched him multiple times. It's like the Bruder film to me, and I was getting

mad because people had edited versions. I was like, no, I want to see the whole thing from start to finish, you know, I want to see that because of watching at home. You know, there was that moment where the stage hands rushed on and you could see like people looking at each other and you you just knew. And I was like thinking, oh my gosh, did they get the name wrong. No, they couldn't, they couldn't. It's I'm sure. Oh my god, Oh my god, I just love Twitter

exploded with literally all caps. What is happening? Happening? Yeah, in case you've been under a rock, we're talking about the Oscars where Warren Batty was handed the wrong envelope for Best Picture. He was handed a duplicate Best Actress envelope, had no idea how to proceed when he was looking at Emma Stone's name on the card, which I guess I can't blame you if you're like I mean, on one hand, he's warm, baby like, like he's weathered the

spotlight his whole career, but known as an improviser. Is I told I feel bad. I thought he was doing a bit. Yeah. I think everybody thought he was just due. I'm gonna act like I don't want to tell you who it is, like, but no, he was like, uh, there's a moment where he looks behind Fae like he's

looking off stage right. Yeah, in retrospect, you know, you you see all the ways that people have tried to get out of this, But at the time, I literally tweeted, um, come on, Warren, this is an American idol and then don't very bad done away, you know, bust his ball and she's like, oh, you're impossible. Yeah, come on, He's like, well here you read it. I think he was just showing it to her, like he was just like, what do we do here? And she's like, La La Land.

And but what's sounds crazy is by all logic, it was supposed to be La La Land. So really the snaff who shouldn't have mattered. But then the fact that Moonlight was the winner was amazing. Yeah, that's that's that's that's true. Like on top of everything, it's like like they could have nobody would have known it had just gone the way people expected because anyone made the comparison. Yet I'm sure someone has that it's basically the year Crash one in reverse, where where like, you know, we

were expecting Brokeback Mountain and then it was crashing. Everyone was angry. He were expecting La La Land. But then the movie that like regarding the reaction to yeah, it's definitely the first time since Brokeback Mountain that you know, like a movie kind of crashed on the waves of on on on the on the shore of success as another movie kind of is it the long Ahead? You know, well it is. It's almost even more shocking because and you know, I love Moonlight and I'm thrilled but at

one but it didn't win SAG Ensemble. You know, it had no precursors to this was Colonel down into this. But why should we predict anything next year? I know, right, there's nothing. I early on, I was just like, okay, this is gonna be an offer. And the weird thing is I got the most random things right, like you know, editing, hack saw, I think you picked Taxa. Oh you didn't, Okay, so Tim and Taxa I thought I did, but I guess I picked sound editing. Okay, Yeah I went with

you on that. Um, thanks Chris. So. Yeah, there was a lot of things that I actually got right that like I never would have gotten right, and then I got huge things wrong like Best Picture and Actor. Yeah there's another thing, SAG Best Actor combo. You know, the last time the SAG winner lost, what was it, probably George Clooney note Clooney, I'm so sorry Viola Davis when

she won for the specifically best Actors. Oh, you have to go back to Johnny Depp for Parents of the Caribbean, which is weird, which nobody thought he would really win the Oscar for that, So that happened. I truely the name of the podcast that happened. What else you know? I personally am a little annoyed about the foreign film situation. So you really think people voted as a protest. I know there are people who think that movie is great

and think, oh, just one on its own whatever. There are also people who don't think it's great, who think it's as Gar's weakest film so far. Yeah, it wouldn't have been my pick, but he still is the biggest quote unquote name. But I just think no one's talking about that statement obviously, but for other reasons. And it just seemed like a statement quote unquote that wasn't going to get much further than the steps of the theater. Like it just seemed like you should make an honest decision.

I think about what you think the best film is not giving a guy who's in London who can't make a statement on his own who granted sent uh very important people. Yeah, who was the woman? I was the first I think, Yeah, it's great, it's a great story in itself. But it's just I don't know, it's it's one of those things we're being overtly political with awards. It doesn't settle right with me. I don't even know

how to explain what I mean. I genuinely think that most people who voted for the Salesman really picked the Salesman, would have picked it otherwise. But and you know, I'm who knows who even saw like, well, I know Tony Herdman, there weren't fans. There weren't many fans left of that. There were a lot of fans of the last ninety minutes. Yeah, if they got there. I know a lot of people who walked out of that and just just it takes it a while for that movie to catch it stride,

you know. Yeah, I mean I think my my pick probably would have been man called. Yeah, that's what I thought was gonna happen. I think in the old system, you know, before they sent the movies to everyone and opened the voting to everyone, that probably would have won. But so it's still strange to me, l wasn't nominated

in that category. I'm still strange to me, people thought us about whoever was going to win Best Actress, me too, But um, I've said that about other people who then went on to win, So I'll just shut my mouth. I just I didn't think that was ever in the cards. It was great to see her at the Oscars, though.

Somebody was like saying making sort of making fun of people at and after parties, saying like, oh, this person thought you know, La La Land was going to sweep, and I was like, yes, so did I. That's not a c after fourteen nominations, by the way, six wins, not to shock absolutely. That's another thing that's sort of getting buried in all this that think happened. By the way, what do you mean not winning? Um, I don't know. I mean, like, do you think the backlash affected it.

I think it's like there's this combination of stuff, and I don't think you can legitimately say it was any one thing. All you can really say is Moonlight one best picture, and that's amazing. It's amazing, I mean really on so many levels. But the different things that like you can look at our a yes, there was backlash. Why was there a backlash? Well, then you look at fourteen nominations, I think even those of us who love Law the Land extremely I don't think it really would

be in that pantheon per se. That's interesting to me because I think it's way better than Titanic, which I know that's which by the way, I was watching Saturday night. I love the movie and I and I probably I probably like it more than All About Eve by the way, Like I'm not a big All About E fan. Everyone's like my brothers. Actually, wait, I dropped my monocle, but just some some of the you know, it's it's it's

a little more modest in its various pieces. Then yeah, and you shoot the fault of film because of that. That's absolutely true. But I think that maybe that is part of what happened, like suddenly it got a little too big. I think, Uh, we love to lift things up and then tear. Yes, And there's also obviously the the entire mood of the country change in November. Uh, the nominations were in like right after Trump was inaugurated.

I think, yes, sounds about right. So you know, reality set in in that moment and you know, it's it's also there's something said. Yeah, there's also something to be said. I mean, we did there's a lot of change in membership, um, and there's something to be said for Moonlight was the movie that I don't think anyone hated. True, But at the same time, I feel like you can't make the argument that La La Land was divisive because it won a preferential ballot at POP. So again, I'm not going

to predict anything next year. I'm done with I'm on as long as I can get away with it. I'm legitimate, legitimately serious about that. Like, look, why bother Until like right before the nomination, I yeah, I didn't want to predict anything until Sad came out because I really was so close to call between Casey and Denzel for me, you know, and then so I was like, I'll go with the SAG winner, And well that was wrong. I was happy for Casey. He looked relieved after a very

long I know. I mean, obviously a lot of it is the culmination of going on of work. And yeah, very happy for Kenn Flanagan. I held his Oscar at the Amazon after party, which was only the second Oscar I've held who is the first birdman achiev Oh photography. Well, I am just an oscar slut because he held all of his oscars, you know, the first, the first oscarer I held. This is so random was Walton Goggins. I

was doing an interview at his place. He has an oscar for short film, a short film called I Think the Account Here Account Yes, which is a very good little film. Not I forgot yes, and I was I was at his house doing an interview and I was like, what do you have an oscar? Or is Joel McHale calls because it's far a short film, a daytime oscar um. And then obviously, um, I think Spike Jones. I held his one year um, which he didn't seem to like

too much. Um. Then I had Rita's. We did show with him the day after, so I had all three of his and I was trying to look like really bored, like whatever, and um yeah. Then last year Achievo brought all three of his to isshoot and then less um I guess. Sunday night, I was leaving and Justin Hurwitz was entering, and he asked if I wanted to hold them and get a picture, and there was, and I said something like I was like, oh, I don't know,

is that kind of OSTENTATIONO? Okay, So Jessin actually took a photo of me holding his oscars, and then all these people started gathering around and taking photos of me because they wanted photos of the oscar. Sounds like it's gonna be all these photos of like, who's this person? I kept saying. I was like, he's he's actually belonged to oscars mailed to her going on, I feel weird about holding oscars. Well, it is like you gotta do it.

At least you don't have the chance. It only ever happened when someone's literally like here held it out, like Chiva was like here, check it out, and I was like okay, and you know, Casey like handed me Kenneth far against oscars like okay, wow, this is awesome. They're heavier than next, and I just, yeah, my feeling is you won this, this is yours, so like I don't. I don't really feel like I should be touching it, but they do. But like I think people who win

them get it. Like I remember backstage at the Golden Globes, my friend who had just won a Globe was like here, hold it, and I was like, no, this feels weird, Like okay, you know, and then you have to get the obligatory photo. Yeah, like I didn't. We we we were fortunate to have both Damien Chazelle and Barry Jenkins on our cover this week. I didn't uh touch their oscars at the shoot? Do they bring them photos and whatnot?

And uh, really just I was happy we were able to do that story because it's it was such an interesting moment of seeing these two groups of people who legitimately love each other, like going way back to tell your ride when they all met. Uh, these movies premiered two days apart, you know, law Land premiered in Venice and on the thirty one of August, two days later

Moonlight premier. To tell your Ride, and uh, they've just been on the circuit the whole time and they had to endure the snaff food together and Jordan Horrowitz, producer of La La Land, just handled it like a champ. He showed what a great producer he is because nobody was doing anything and he stepped up. He said, there's a mistake grabbed. I saw some bill on Twitter were angry that he snatched the card from Warren Beatty. I was like, go back and look at Warren Batty's face

after he does that. He's not mad at all. He's like, the guy is handling like it was and he said, you know, I'm going to be proud to hand this to my my friends, which was so beautiful and and that's the truth. And that's why, you know, seeing these two come together for that shoot and that story was really awesome. And it's such an awesome mutual admiration society.

It really is. Yeah, And it's not like, you know, I know a lot of people like pretend to like each other on the campaign trail, but they genuinely like they've had to spend so much time together, they love each other's movies. It's it's really really, actually kind of heartwarming. And when we did the interview, they had not seen each other at the parties or anything. They finally that morning we're able to compare notes and like, what was

it like for you? What was like, you know, these two guys, we're gonna be seeing their work for a long exactly. They're going to be back there. They're a part of I think a very exciting new generation of filmmakers. And I mean, this is this is the thing like all throughout the year with the backlash and stuff, it's like those of us who are like, we love both of these movies, and it's kind of like that snaff

who allowed that moment to be seen. Like I'm not saying this well, but it's just use your words and use your words, Chris. It's just great to see them both come together. And it's a weird moment and it's like the way Barry put it to me, it was messy, but it was gorgeous. It really was, I mean, and you know, yeah, I wish it hadn't gone down that way. I wish that, you know, it had been this pure moment for Moonlight. But it's it's weirdly sort of appropriate.

And I know this has been mentioned at least on Twitter, but like I think the funniest tweet I saw was like, hey, La La Land, remember when you gave us a glimpse of a happy ending and then tore it away. How does its weirdly appropriate? It's like a current at all creep Bridge. Oh my god, wow you went back for that. I'm surprised no one's like I just thought about that yesterday.

I was like, it's kind of like a more romantic version of the movie Yes, Happy the Happy End spoilt if you've had sixty years to see a current at home bridge and that, ye so, but yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is, well, those of us who do this, we know what these two teams think about each other. But that moment allowed the world to see what these two teams think about each other. And I thought that was really great. Yeah, you know, and

that's not necessarily normal either, because this is a cutthroat thing. Yeah, I mean, you know, so gosh, what else is there to say? Uh? This is did you like the show overall? Not really see? I really did. I feel I thought Jimmy was like a little tone deaf, like I thought holding up the kid from Lyon with the lion Key music. Yeah, I don't know that about that. Yeah. I don't want to say racist, because that's a little but each stream, but it felt a little weird and you know, making

fun of all the foreign sounding names. It's just that. Definitely, Bob Hope, like, let's dial it back a bit. Some people don't are like over the Jimmy Kimmel, Matt Damon feud. I still think it's one of the funniest things ever. It's funny, but it's chafing. Sure, maybe it shouldn't have been And that was how it was supposed to end. Did you hear that it was supposed to end with Jimmy sitting next to Matt Damon, I assume saying something like ha ha you lost. Yeah, exactly, But nope, he

had to be on stage fumbling with the rest of them. No, I didn't. I didn't love the show. I did like the open with Justin Timberlake. Some people were saying, this isn't the Grammys. It's like whatever, I hate Twitter when when the Oscars is going on, I hate I love and hate it because there's some funny stuff out there. You get to see a lot of ID at that time. But I you know, I love that song. Um so what you were singing it earlier before we turn on

the microphones. When I sing that song to my son, he smiles so big. So how could I not like that song? And I thought it was great coming through the crowd and everything. You know it was were you? Um? You went to the Independent Spirit Awards, right. Um, I watched from home, which seems to be my new malu. Uh and um. I thought it was a very risky but absolutely hilarious bit where Andy Sandberg did the like

that you didn't see. I wondered how it layed in the room because he came out as Eddie Veteran saying I'm still alive. Instead of an in memorium segment, they showed people who were still alive and I want, I mean like, it was very risky and I wondered how it played in the room. I thought it was hilariously how it played because at the same time that news

was breaking about Greg P. Russell having his sound nomination. Uh, the Academy embarrassing a thirty year guy publicly when they could have dealt with this quietly, and embarrassing him for what. On top of which, embarrassing him for something that everyone does, like, I hope they don't stop with that. They they better go rescind every Mirriamac's Best Picture nomination. Uh. It's that

was utter bullshit and uh. And then compounded with the academies, you know, with the screw up at the Oscars and not a great year even though they've you know, diversity stuff was was nice. Uh, the Academy has had a rough year. Yeah, and they have some changes to make. I think I hope they make them. So will you'll be running for Academy president to say it's your platform to announce that. Nope, Christmas Patrick should run. I don't know who that is. If you understood that reference, you

know why that's awesome. I'm going to have to do it now. Are you going to tell us saying that to the to the audience, it's it's the SNL sketch that uh, what's his name Kyle Mooney does where he's running for class president and it's like one of my favorite sketches on Saturday Night Left. And I'm so tired that I'm just rambling at this point. This is the last show of season one of But you have what I think should be an OSCAR nominated movie on the show this week. I do Who is it? James Mannold

from Logan? I wanted to talk about Logan. Oh my god, I loved Logan so much. I mean, you know, I don't know if I can say it's the best X Men movie because it's so different. I would, Yeah, it's a Western, but it is. It's a straight up Western. I am not kidding. I am being completely serious when I say Patrick Stewart should be up for Oscar consideration. He's so fantastic and Logan, Um, yeah, it's kids, but

hard are I'm letting the listeners just despite you. I'm going to have children and taking them Logan this week. I did suggest at the beginning of this podcast way back in September that everyone take their kids to Sausage Party. Maybe I should close by saying take kids of Logan. It's it's the blood Fest. And we have some we I'm not even kidding. We have movies that I think will be in the Oscar Conversation next year. Coming up this month, we have Logan. We have Beauty in the

East in two weeks. Um. Yeah, so look we're already back start making them. But yeah, I think this has been a great run of shows here. So thanks for being here with me weekend and week out. And yes, stay tuned for James Mangold right after this m who got ourselves an next Minute fan? Maybe a quarter of it happened. I'm not let this in the real world, people die, Logan. I don't want to talk about it. Logan, just stop, be careful. I need the girl. What girl go get h No? No no? And where do She's

like you, very much like you. Where I am not whatever it is you think I am. She needs our help. I want to come off. Someone has come along. This is what life looks like. People love each other at home. You should take a moment feel it. Welcome back everyone, I'm here with the director of Logan, James Mangold. Thanks for doing the show man. I really appreciate it's good to be here. I'm glad we could make it happen. Um, we're just talking about all the travel you've been doing

for this movie. Yeah, we've done the kind of whirlwind. Um of well, I was in Germany for the for the Berlin Film Festival where we kind of had our premiere, then went to London, um, and then did two stints in New York before and after London, and now I'm back in here. You doing this, Yeah, it's it's one

of those movies we all everywhere for it. We only finished We only finished the movie about two and a half weeks ago, so it's kind of that's more of the feeling of Whirlwood that must have been the day before I saw it practically, which, by the way, the movie is awesome and a word thank you, and we're gonna we're gonna talk about it in a minute. But I was just thinking, I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about what every one's thinking

about this week. Did you watch the oscars Um? I did? I did? Wow? Right, Wow, I guess wow. I mean it's wow. But the thing for me, that's odds. I was already at that point in the evening starting to kind of tune out. But the partly just for me, because however sacrosanct uh it is for me. The I don't really care who wins um. The it's the every one of those movies is brilliant um in its own way. And the you know, whenever anyone says me, name your

five favorite Westerns, I like freeze. Whenever it says, name the best three movies you saw this year, I freeze, meaning I the kind of the reality show of picking the best and having a discussion with someone like why Moonlight or Lalla Land is better than one is better than the other seems ludicrous on his face, even yes, certainly too like so that so literally I got to see I got to see both wonderful realities played out.

I've never seen anything like that, but it is I mean, obviously it's more of a train wreck in the sense of stage managing, but the uh um, but in a way I see more pain for all the people who are made mistakes and had it happen than anything delicious to talk about. It kind of seems more like just like what a nightmare. Well luckily too, I mean, we've got both of those directors on our cover this week,

and they're friends. They love each other, The two camps love each other, and it's it was an interesting moment and kind of a lovely moment in the weird way, so because they were both on that stage and everybody's hugging. So anyway, it was and nasty is good, you know, um in in the world of what I do? You know? You you you hope something gets a sloppy and revealing

as as a moment like that. Yeah, well, this movie, logan, it's a hard are hard our rating, obviously viciously violent, lots of colorful language, which as I'm watching it, I'm wondering, Okay, how did he defend these decisions to the studio because this is a big guy p character for them, even right down to the title. I mean, it's it doesn't have Wolverine in the title, it's Logan. You've got like three or four good questions in those senses. UM. The first thing I'd say is that I never had to

defend the decision to go are that much? UM. Hugh and I were pretty definitive and a pact we made with each other about wanting the tone to change and wanting to do something different, um, if only for selfish reasons. UM. In my case, UM, I Hugh very much wanted to give fans what they have been waiting for in terms of UM physical UM, the display of the Berserker rage

in all its bloody glory. UM. My interest in the R rating, though, was much bigger than just salty language and violence, both of which I thought would be really helpful to take the movie to a new place. But it was also something else, which is that, UM, if you can get a studio to agree to an R rating in advance of a movie's release, particularly a tent polepture like this. UM. There's a couple of things that happened the obvious being the freedom to do, um, things

that you couldn't do in a PG PG film. But there's another thing that happens, which is that the marketing and distribution wings of the studio have to come to terms with the fact that the movie is not going to be marketed to children, and of course can't be and um because it's not four children. And the second that idea, that concept is swallowed by the studio, you go from being a four box movie to essentially, I guess, the two box movie. And what does that do to

you as a screenwriter. Um. I wrote the story for this movie and co wrote the script with Scott Frank and Michael Green, and suddenly we're writing We're no longer having to worry, you know. One of the first scenes I wrote early on was the first scene between Patrick Stewart and and you, Jackman, UM when you when we first meet Patrick, UM in a kind of startling new condition, UM living inside this tipped water tower and then Mexican

desert and UM, it's a six to seven page scene. Um, you can't write a movie that is for eleven year olds with a six to seven page emotional dialogue scene between two middle aged or Twilight aged men and the um the freedom to make a movie for grown ups without worrying about the films a platform for merchandising tie ins or happy meals, or or the short or having to resort to kind of or deal with the short attention span, theater tempo of cutting, or making sure the

ideas are digestible by children. For children, UM, it's a that's a more wholesale change UM and in a way helped as an antidote or kind of um to the violence, meaning that instead of the violence feeling sophomoric, I hoped that it would actually feel um unfiltered. UM. Just a kind of vision. Uh, it's not a numbing violence. It's like you feel the repercussions of what's going on. Well, that was the important thing to me. I didn't want

to do. You know, when people talk about the movie and we'll refer to it and kind of talk about the brutal action, my only anxiety about it all in the film. And there was some care made to play both ends, meaning to play into the operatic nature of Wolverine's rage, but to also show something that you don't see even in PG films. I feel UM, which is

that violence has consequences, and characters die. People you whether it's um supporting characters or your principal characters, people you've come to love, people you know, people who have lives, personalities and a soul die. I think that what's interesting, you know, is that in a lot of films that we even rate on a level that are supposedly appropriate for children, there's mass killings going on. It's just that they're a little less read and wet, and you don't

get to know the people falling. It's just kind of shadow play of bodies tumbling and under rolling busses and crumbling buildings. But the the body count is probably high multiples of ours. And yet so the b interesting question for me always becomes what's more in a way traumatizing for our culture showing mass killings that have no effect,

or showing mass killings that at least feel legitimately traumatizing. Yeah, and that idea of of the violence with the repercussions, I mean that's sort of crystallized as well in this dialogue you take from Shane that you use in the film. Well, it's it's it's central to the entire story of this character, as well, UM, I mean for those who aren't X

men fans. UM. One thing has been essentially true about Logan through his comic book history and movie history, which is that he's carrying a ton of shame on his back about dark needs he committed when he was younger and called weapon X in his incarnation as a kind of UM. When he was a gun slinger, he was, well, he was a drug drug pumped killer. UM. But yes, but in the metaphor of the Western he was he was a gun slinger and UM and UM and a lot of people were hurt, and they weren't all UM

in it. They weren't all guilty in some way. It wasn't always the justified death, if you will. And the UM. I think that that's something that's been played with throughout UM as I said, comic book history with this character and in the movies. But the the idea for me of coming of this character, coming to terms um with his life UM in a final film seemed to me necessary to find some way to go deeper into his

own odd um relationship with violence. When did this kind of conceit because it is it does have the DNA of a Western, When did that did you go into it with that concede in minor did it develop as you developed a project like some of something that comes along with just me? Meaning you know, my second film, Copland, which by all outward appearances is a kind of Sydney Lamett esque New Jersey, kind of Peyton Place cop movie. Uh,

was very much structured, actually built on three Tennyuma. The idea of this kind of weakened mail in the center of this town of gun slingers, who has called upon to kind of find the reserves to stand up to this um gun slinging bunch of corruption around him. Um the That's all very much. Um was hugely Western influence. And in fact that movie ends in a giant gunfight, um the um, but a gunfight not like you'd see in Heat, but one more like one you'd see in

hind And the Westerns had a powerful effect on me. Um. I couldn't completely explain why, but in I'm kind of a classicist, I mean I'm not. I I am from the same generation, Um that a host of really talented kind of postmodern directors have come from. Probably the leader of all of them would be Quentin And I'm a huge fan of his work, but I couldn't do anything like that, Like it's not the whole uh uh. There's

something I'm always looking for, something very earnest. I miss, I miss amid all the really wonderful films made along the lines I was just describing. I miss movies that mean it, that have something to say, that have a kind of gravity to them, and are unashamed. It's in this kind of most sardonic of ages, it's almost gotten um uncool to actually represent a true feeling um that without quotes around it or or a snicker, and that

that's something the Western for me embodies UM. And I've always offered kind of guidance on on um if for listeners who are hearing me describe, you know, Logan's backstory. It's kind of very logical if you think about movies like Shane or Unforgiven or Pale Rider or The Man of Shot, Liberty Valance. There's a lot of movies that in which the kind of bones lineage UM really lend themselves to considering UM, considering how you might be able

to use some of those structures in a modern superhero movie. Yeah, it fits like a glove really, since we're actually on the the topic of the genre. I'll skip ahead a bit. Um. You know, obviously you did your own version of Three Tender Yuma, which is ten years ago, if you can believe it. Yeah, we had been Foster on the show a few weeks ago. He's so incredible, he is, He's a monumental acting talent and a great guy. And indeed, and and uh, I was I gonna ask you about

the Westerns. Let me flip my page, because, like I said, I'm jumping ahead. Oh well, yeah, just the climate of that genre in Hollywood. Uh. I was on the set of one a few months ago that Ben actually was shooting, and there were a couple going on, Christian and hostiles. Um. The just is there is there a sense that there's an interest in making Westerns in Hollywood? Or is it is it difficult to get them off the ground for any reason. I'm just I'm always curious those who have

worked in the genre. I think there's a lot of raining assumptions. But but I think a lot of the assumptions have gone out the window in the last few years. Um or that um or, to put it differently, I think studios are not sure if any of the things

they thought were true eight years ago are still true. UM. More than just a convulsion in our political scene happened last year, I think there was a convulsion on all levels of just what it is, UM, what it is movies need to be, what they need to become, whether

the and I think it's a very logical one. Like if you look at movie history, there was a period not unlike this one where movies where television was suddenly king, and movies became all about spectacle and you came out to the theater to see giant size todd a o Cinerama Spectacle three D of course was born in this period, and movies were trying to justify the theater experience with with all these um immersive technologies UM and UM, and it produced a lot more big scale, very often a

lot of mediocre productions UM than more intimate fair and dramatic fair, which seemed to be more thriving on the

small screen. I think that in some ways we've entered another period where that's been true, where there's a lot of UH, it's also affected, but CG spectacles, comic book movies, other things have come to the fore in a way that we're in the fifties and sixties, but that it's it's gotten to where the mainstay of theatrical movies for the last period have been giant, giant movies that are a theatrical experience that either promised you three D or

just a kind of big imax experience. Um. But something has happened along with that. I have no problem with that, but something's happened along with it. That is that the the calculation in the scripting and design of these movies has gotten a little repetitive, probably as it happened in the fifties and sixties as well. And that that just as a creative person, and I don't think I'm alone

in this. You're just looking for a way. And I think the studios are to to just shake things up because everyone feels, um that there's a certain amount of exhaustion setting in with these movies as they in the way they've been made, even some quite excellent, but just just we can't keep doing the same movie over again. I hope we get more in that genre, because you know, it's it's it doesn't seem like it's on life supporting. Well.

People are frightened of period, you know, people are frightened of period, and they're frightened that that um that that the public is gonna have a hard time figure out how to access into it. I think the beauty of the Western um, for those that do love it, is just simply is its simplicity. It's not the period. It isn't it isn't in this in the same way a

period piece. Uh. It's really a kind of fantastical universe that's hardly historically accurate in most cases, and more a kind of fever dream of the American moment when the Industrial Revolution kind of swept across the country in the age of the outlaws and the wild lands and the homesteaders came to an end and the train connected the

East and West coast. It's kind of a magical moment that really, in historical sense, only existed maybe five years, but has become the canvas for countless movies because I think it's so represents and contains the American dream and the you'r the yearning for freedom at the same time as our sense of being part of of something much larger. Yeah, I know you said you freeze, But what's your favorite Western I'll tell you mine. I'll go first, Once upon

a Time in the West. Yeah, well that's easy for me if you would having me say ten of them. But is that? But then there's the like really weird Claudia Cardinal, Jason Robarts cutaways where I'm like, my head just hit some play and I'm like so. But if you talk about the best last ten minutes in a in a Western, the that that gunfight between Charles Bronson and and Henry Fonda and Morricone's music and the flashback on the summation of all the time, that that that

is a brilliant, brilliant um film. I mean, Shane to me remains a kind of touchstone because of its tremendous beauty, um, the sophistication of the acting, um, you know, the I mean, just think about this this movie where where Jean Arthur is is you know, the loyal life to Van Heflyn in this in their homesteaders plot of land. But when Shane arrives, you feel her, uh fall in love with Shane, and you feel Shane fall in love with her. They

never touch each other, they hardly look at each other. Um. But what is always most interesting to me in that film is the beautiful work also Van Hethlen does where you feel his own awareness that he's lost his wife's admiration to this strange dark gunslinger who's sleeping in their barn and um, and yet instead of lashing out or berating her, his response is a kind of beautiful sense of understanding that he has been so compromised by the

struggles they've gone through that he almost can't blame her for admiring the kind of idealistic and the strength and idealism of this hero who has entered their midst and Um. There's so many complicated themes, and of course the child um that beautiful performance, but of that child who is who falls in love also with a surrogate um father. In Shane, I use a lot of Yeah, Brandon to Wilde, I Um, I used a lot of that, a lot

of those ideas. Even in three Tending Huma, I mean, Logan Lehman's character kind of falls more in love with Russell Crows and it's kind of completely disillusioned with with with Christian in many ways. My Three Tending Human is a bit of a kind of hybrid of Shane and and and three the original three ten great scenery up there to in the t tons obviously absolutely and and one of the first UH films where they hold those huge technicolor cameras out into the wild and you really

feel it. Definitely UH. Going back to Logan and this character Wolverine, let's talk about that. The title was that something you had to defend? Was that a difficult thing? That interesting you're asking about that, Chris, because that was the biggest um negotiation of the entire picture, the the in some way or another. And I still pinched myself and can't quite believe we got the movie through without any struggle. But the rated are the script that we wrote,

the kind of story of the tone. We had no issues when dailies were coming out, We had no concerned visits to the set. We had nothing but encouragement. Um. I think there was an opportunity for things to go awry when we, you know, showed the film to test audiences, because the question was gonna be does this alchemy of of kind of rated our violence and adult themes mary

to an audience's expectations of a Wolverine movie. And the response was so enthusiastic from the audiences we screened it for that that hurdle was passed without a blip from either side getting nervous, but the title was something I had to push very hard. Um And ultimately Stacy made the call and and uh and backed me on the idea of separating us. However counterintuitive it was, yeah, Stacy

Snyder chairman. However counterintuitive, counterintuitive it was two, actually divorce yourself from the known brand being Wolverine or X Men. I mean, certainly, you know the first Wolverine movie couldn't let go of either brand. It was like Wolverine semi colon X Men. Yeah, it was. I mean it was literally as if I hate those kind of titles. The um and frankly, we were in a bit of a

quandary because what do you call this? There was a movie called Wolverine Origins X Men whatever, and then there was The Wolverine, which is the last one I made, and then this one will will this beend? The Wolverine two or Wolverine three, or Wolverine three, the Happening or Wolverine three, the Great Ride? I mean, what would you every one of those things becomes these I mean they sound like some hermern Woke novel. I'm like I'm like, what,

why do they have these ponderous eight word titles? And um, A lot of it has to do with this idea of holding the movies together, um, whether you call it a universe or it's the box set of DVDs to come out later, some kind of unifying, unifying branding that holds all the movies together, which, for whatever perverse reasons, I am extremely resistant to. I really don't want my movie held together, um with anything else, even my last movie.

Meaning I just there's some kind of Again, it's my own puritanical way of looking at telling a story with a beginning, middle and an end. Is that that's my job. My job is not to make a platform for selling the next movie. My job is not to make a platform to connecting to other movies. My job is to tell a good story within the confines of the of the of the Fox logo and the end it and and um that you feel satisfied by hopefully. Yeah, Well it's perfect title. I mean it it grounds everything, and

it's and it signals to what was most important. I think one the day with Stacy Snyder when she was considering what to do, was I think that what was most important to me was to get folks like yourself and of course the public ready for a different movie if we called it the same thing or kind of just added a new digit. After the Wolverine, I had a great fear that we would not be signaling with a sense of continuity and unanimity, what that we were

making something different. We were doing something different um in tone and and and in who the audience who we were aiming at for audience with the Wolverine. Uh, did you feel like you made the movie you wanted to make there? And I only asked just because this movie is so different. It feels like you were doing stuff here that maybe you wish you could have done on the other movie, or something like that. I I can't

I for for anything that anyone. I'm very fond of the last Wolverine movie I made, and I always viewed as a kind of fever dream of Japanese cinema and UM Samurai Pictures, Hong Kong crime pictures, UM. But I did feel like it got more clocke comic Bookie in the third act than what we did in the first two acts. And certainly this was a previous regime at Fox. They were more worried about my first two acts than

the third. UM. But I think that I have to own what works or doesn't work for people in my movies. And I think that I, UM I too. It's it's very you know, it's it's very hard to do it different when when there are these all these default settings for a genre or an idea. UM, the idea of needing a really big UM CG spectacular in the third act is a very difficult pressure to resist. And it's not like it's coming from one person or they're demanding something.

It's it's a kind of snap to grid where it's just like everyone's doing it. I guess this is what

you gotta do. And UM. It wasn't until I had gotten the end of that process on that movie that I came to terms in my for my own self with what I loved most about the previous film and and it was actually the front end, the kind of the this kind of uh noir, Japanese noir with with Logan in it, and UM, and what I went about doing because I entered that movie midstream, meaning there was already a script by Chris mcquarie when I came on.

And then Scott Frank and I worked on it and um, but the and and and all of it was based on a pre existing uh Wolverine narrative about his journey to Japan and falling in love with Marco and um facing these foes there. But for me with this movie, the difference was it was like me writing Copland or Girl Interrupted or Walk the Line or whatever it was.

I started with a blank page, um when it and from absolute zero, I went about trying to construct a movie that, even if I was making just a movie on my own, about characters that were not marvel icons or superheroes. This was an interesting story to tell about a man caring for nailing father upon whose doorstep arrives a daughter he won't accept eternity for and someone's chasing her and forces them all out of their comfortable place and onto the road where they're fighting for their lives.

And that that could easily be a movie that you'd make without clause or mutant powers at all, which in a sense to me is a better definition of how to find a story than the other way around, the building your story around around um their powers. Yeah, what about visual ideas? Because I love those first two acts of the Wolverine very much as well. And uh, and I also note some imagery from the Frank Miller stuff in there. It's really cool, especially in those arrows and

stuff going into the third act. But with Logan, I'm not as a comic book reader as familiar with the newer stuff that has this young character and stuff and things like that. But I'm just curious if there were any graphic references reference points for you at all. And I think I kind of let go of that. I kind of gave myself a prescription to do something original.

Um in all these things are in my head. I mean, the biggest influence i'd say visually in a general way was was old Man Logan and um, not from a story point of view, as much we didn't do that story. We couldn't from a character legal point of view that we didn't have writes a lot of the characters in that comic book, but from a vibe a look, um, that was a lot of what we did. Um. And it was a very big inspiration in terms of setting

a tone. And I think as much as you could credit Deadpool and the changing marketplace and studios understanding that that the world is changing for these movies, and we have to keep changing with it. I think that old man logan provided a kind of legitimacy for reimagining the world of Wolverine in a very different environment in place.

But I really tried in every way to uh when I say this that I felt like the best way I could serve the fans would be to ignore it all and just make my movie, meaning make a movie.

The best I could make a film. Um, come what may, to tell a story about these characters in this world in the same way when you bring up Frank Miller, he did, meaning that that that um that the story of the evolution of comic books is not a story of universe building and continuity as much as it's a story of shattering changes being made every eight years or so in these in these different storylines, Superman doesn't look the same as he did in one and Batman doesn't

look the same as when Bob Kane created him. And um, Neil Gaiman certainly did different things with the Sandman than what he was doing in the DC universe earlier. And I could go on and on, um that the quest for kind of unity and an unbroken style within a comic book movie series is more. I think about again that that perverse need to make a kind of box set or a never ending, unspliceable nine hour version of one of these sagas. And I think that's the enemy

of good filmmaking in a way. I think that taking a director and saying, Okay, I want you to dream. But when you get in this bed and dream, don't move the pillows and don't touch the covers, and it's like okay. And so you sit very stiff and and intimidated in this bed, trying to do your best work, but knowing there's ninety things you can't do that you would do because someone's gonna get piste off at you.

And UM, a little bit, when you asked me about the last movie, UM, I dipped my toe in the world. You know, it was a trauma. Just to get his hair approved different than the Flock of Seagull's look. That was a monumental amount of negotiation. And UM, I fought as many battles as I could. But but UM, with this movie, I tried to kind of get the battles result before we even started. I'm running out of time with you, but I did want to mention Night and Day got a raw deal. That movie is awesome. I

think it's awesome. I think Tom is incredible. It's everything that he's so great at, all of his charisma, all of his timing. I think I think two things happened in the movie. One is it was called Wichita, and we wrote it and we shot it calling Wichita, and God loved Tom Rothman, but he became convinced that, uh that, as did Jim g that that that the name Wichita in Asia would be they won't know what it means.

It's bill call it wi Chita and uh, and we're like, it's just a cool title and um, and it was about where the story began and then went around the

world from there. But but the story about it is, of course that they then came up with some market tested title Night and Day, which sounded like just the worst eighties comedy title ever attached to a film, and um and of course Night and Day means nothing in most of Europe and Asia as well, because the pun with the k in the end means nothing in another language. So the whole argument was, Uh, all I can say is you live and you learn. But when you bring

up when I bring up the title. It's amazing, Like when I was talking about Logan and the rating and how it frees you to make an adult film. When you title a movie with a stupid title, it signals something. It activates the press who looks at it like a kind of trivial film. It activates the The artwork and the marketing and the trailer cutting all build around this

kind of more simpleton version of the movie. And in many ways Night and Day Wichitas I like to call it never recovered from the kind of effort to make it UM a kind of very silly caper comedy as opposed to a real tribute to movies like Charade, and an effort to make a kind of UM a pretty satirical look at the espionage, romance and violence around the

world in these days. And and also Tom Cruise taking a pretty brave um poke at his own persona UM and particularly in the midst of the moment we were making that movie, I thought he was really brave in in playing a part um about kind of the ultimate can do guy, so can do that he kind of makes you want to run UM and UM. I felt like that went marketing and framing on that movie went a long way to getting people turned off before they even watched it. And then finally last thing here, Uhary

of Copland this year earlier. I look at that and I see such an amazing cast and a great story from a writer director. But I wonder how intimidated were you buy that cast and in making that movie at that stage in your career. I have to you know, it's one of the really great stories of my career on a on a friendship level, was the protectiveness of Robert de Niro on that movie for being um he worked the first month of that movie and then went

on to do a different show. And um there, to a man, there wasn't another cast member ray Leota, Harvey Kitell, sly Pete Burgh. God, there's so many people in that movie, but the um there wasn't one of them who didn't deeply respect Bob. And Bob was a neighbor of mine downtown New York at that time, and the second son in the movie. He made it this thing of getting together every week and doing some research or sitting and having ginger tea and talking about the script and um,

and he really befriended me. He kind of UM. And he said this thing to me early on at one of those get togethers, which is like, you know, I don't usually work with young directors. And he goes, I just don't want you in awe of me. Tell me what you want. Always tell me what you want. And I was like, okay, and he said, even in the middle of when I'm acting, even better, don't say cut,

just tell me what you want while we're rolling. And it was one of the most freeing things because in the first week of shooting, here's Bob and he's doing some scene at you know, the i A headquarters in New York, and in the middle of the take, I'm like, come with that again, come around and like stallonea leon and all these other guys are looking at like you just cut off Bob de Nero and are telling them what to do and and Bob comes twice with twice as much energy into the scene and and he said

a tone, UM, don't funk with this kid, And UM, in many ways, I'll be eternally grateful to him UM for that, because I think UM, to a man, they all were really collaborative and lovely with me. UM. I think I was. So it was a lot to handle um as a second picture when your first movie was was shot for two hundred fifty thousand dollars and all took place in a little diner. But but I look back with huge and fond memories about being surrounded with that kind of talent and um and hearing my words

brought to life by those guys. It was incredible. And we didn't talk about walk the line, but Man in Black would have been this past weekend. Yeah, he just would have turned. And you know, I thought about Johnny Cash a lot as I've been working on this movie. You know, A we used UM, we're using a song of his to close our picture, and we used another song of his UM in the marketing campaign for Logan. But it's not it's not only that it works. I think it had in both cases in use UM, but

that there's there's uh. You know, My work is very disparate. You know, I've moved from genre to genre, but a lot of things, if you look beneath the easy surface of genre, stay very constant for me. And for instance, Johnny Cash and Logan are brothers. Um. There is UH for me, UM A deep understanding in john and always was of feeling the outsider, UM, feeling ashamed of his past, carrying a kind of shadow through life, UM, and trying to understand how he could use his own darkness in

positive ways. UM. Well, and our interview if you want, with a story that John told me of a couple of weeks before he died, which was really moved me, and UM relates to Logan in a big way, which is that I after June Carter died, I continued speaking to John um Um Saturday mornings via phone. And UH, part of it was some of his family suggested it was good for him just to keep talking about the movie, because you know, he was grieving for the loss of

his lifelong partner and it was a stunning death. And so we would talk on Saturdays. And I had really gotten all I needed for the script at this point. But there was one day I was just shooting the ship with him and I started asking him about his favorite movies and he and he says, you know, my favorite movie was Frankenstein, and I go, really when you see it? And he was like, when I was nine, I saw it at the you know, the dis cinema.

There was little theater and Dias Mississippi, and he went and saw the movie and he said it was stunning to me because I looked around and all the other kids and all the other grown ups in the theater were like terrified of this monster. But I felt like I identified with him. And he said, you know, I was nine years old, but I felt like I was

made up of all these bad parts soon together. And you know, I remember him telling you that story and being really moved and thinking about what that must feel like. And but I remembered it recently because I think that cuts to the core of who Logan is. That he's been um, that he walks through life carrying this ton of shame and um, this feeling that he's not for this earth and not good enough to deserve love or family,

and yet we know different as we watch him. UM, And I think that, uh, that's something I really tried to bring to this. And I think Hugh knocks out of the park well Wolf. The movie is called The Wolverine three Electric Boogaloo the movie. Go see Logan tomorrow. It opens everywhere. It's amazing. And James, thanks again for coming on the show. My pleasure, Chris, always interesting. Thank

thank you. Thanks for listening everyone. Remember to subscribe to play back and check back for season two and a couple of weeks you've been listening to playback at Variety, Boo Fire,