Ep18 - Ava DuVernay / "13th"

Laura Lenny. For your consideration in all categories, Welcome to Playback, a Variety podcast on your host, Variety Awards Editor Chris Tapley. On today's show, we talked about the recent w g A nominations and the upcoming Golden Globes, as well as a few suggestions for Academy members receiving the ballast This week. A little bit later, are we talking to thirteenth director Ava Duverney. So stick around. Alright, folks, I'm here again with Janelle Riley. Welcome. We're in the year that will

be better than two thousand sixteen. Everyone thing it has to be. It has to be. No. Look like, nine days into the year, my dog died, I mean, come on you, yeah, and then it just proceeded to go downhill from there. I no longer have a dog, so therefore has to be better be careful what you assume? That's true. I am that crazy person who like will probably end up with twelve dogs by the end of the year. Uh, we're fresh out of palm springs. Yes, fresh, I am like with the opposite of fresh. I am

worn down and tired. Did I tell you by the way that my hair dryer caught fire as I was using it. I had a lot of problems with my hotel room, and that was just the icing on the kid I got there. Your room wasn't ready. I wasn't ready you. I was shuttling between two different rooms because the shower wasn't working. Literally like trudging a suit case across these beautiful grounds that I'm sure look great in the morning, but when it's one o'clock in the morning

and there's no signs and no light. And then I pumped into Amy Adams, also in sweatpants and yet somehow looking red carpet ready, and I'm like, oh God, don't recognize me, don't recognize me? And champagne problem. Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I wasn't going to name the hotel I will. Okay, Well, it wasn't their fault, it was. It was just a confluence of yeah, and it's the grounds are beautiful, they do our brunch. It's such a lovely event. But yes, as my friends were yelling at

me the other day, these aren't real problems, Janelle. Yeah, it was the annual Pump Springs Gallo Wards Gallo Annual. I think have they been doing the actual gallow I don't know because I'm twenty two, so it's way before my time. You didn't have to laugh. I'm sorry you didn't have to. Do you think? Do you think I have? Very good, very nice? Yeah? So they had their annual gala, big packed room of all the Palm Springs locals. Yes, this is where we get to name drop that we

were at the coolest table in the room. We were at a good one. Ryan Gosling Andrew Garfield, who I threw off. I don't know if you noticed that. He uh he got up to go accept his award and I got up to go to another table to talk to somebody, And so as he was coming back, he went to sit down at that table and he was like, wait, you moved funny walk across to get to his table. But yeah, that was a very nice table. Ryan Gosling stands whenever a woman returns to her seat, gentlemen, so

just set the bar even higher. I was just like, really, dude, do you have to made me look so bad? But that that events, it's a little taxing. I think it's hard. It's a long night. It's a long night, it's a it's a lot of people, and honestly, some of them are just uncouth. I mean taking pictures of people in bathrooms. Yeah,

I mean it's just the bathroom. Really, my first year attending there, I just had the worst taste in my mouth ever since this couple left from the table and then they come back and the guys like holding up or the girls holding up her camera like check it out Angelina Jolie in the bathroom. Wow, God, get me out of here. Okay? Is that really any different from the you know, twenty five events we have here? Though throughout this little I've always felt this a little sweaty there. Actually, really,

I don't know. I mean, I guess they don't. It's like there one time a year where they get these big star studded thing and people show up in their tuxes to do this Hollywood event. Well, apparently there's a lot of Academy voters in Palm Springs. I've been told. Yeah, so it's it's smart, yes, no doubt, and anything you do in Santa Barb. But there's like two voters up there. I mean, there's reasons that these things are yeah, strategically positioned.

This year. I don't even remember the winners at this point because all of these awards shows. It's funny because they gave awards to just for example, like Natalie Portman and Annette Benning and Nicole Kidman, so they can't just call it the Actress Award. They have to make up. Yeah, the desert poems like let's get everybody in here, which again is smart, and poor Emma Stone was sick with

strap throat. You couldn't be there for the Vanguard Award with Justin Hurwitz and Damien Chazelle and Ryan Goslin who all accepted. And we're like, she's better by the Oscars because I'm sure she'll sing sing. Hopefully she's better this weekend in time for the Golden Globes to win. Oh, it's really not really a bold I'm not even sure who's nominated against here. To be honest, do you think

we kind of talked about globes with some predictions. There are some reader questions a few weeks ago, but anything crazy. I mean, it will probably be Emma Stone for actress in a comedy musical. I assume I'm guessing Natalie Portman for Jackie and drama. Um, look at this point, I'm starting to think Ryan Reynolds will win for Deadpool because Deadpool just keeps racking up nominations and win and like,

look at your face right now. Writer's Guild Awards Wednesday morning, and uh, these people need to see more movies that they depend on screeners, which is a problem and not completely their fault. I want to be writers. They can't pay to see the movie, but I want to be fair because the way the timeline is, the way the calendar is structured now everyone pretty much depends on their screeners. And you know, one of the big misses was hax all Ridge did not send screeners. Um, such a shame.

It's I mean, decisions have to be made early on who can prioritize. For instance, d G A received taxall screeners. I expect Gibson to show up there, but I think he'll chopping the oscars too. Yeah, me too. And Captain Fantastic, you know was a possibility for original they sent out digital screeners. I'm told I don't know if that matters

quite the same though. I mean, I personally don't have a problem with it, but there are some people who have this bias about watching it on their computer, which is silly. Don't we watch everything on iPads? Now? I mean maybe it's sacrilegic. I do not have this problem of watching something on my laptop. Um. But Deadpool is apparently a better screenplay than Love and Friendship Silent, which

they probably didn't see fair enough. Yeah, that's my guess. Uh. You know, Hack's all Ridge, just there's a littany a bigger Splash, for instance, which I think was one of the years. Do you. Um, I don't have a problem with this, and I know the w g A they actually you know, they gave a nomination to Guardians of the Galaxy. They tend to be friendly and that's true. Uh, but Deadpool, I mean, I know, I'm I'm a slagging on the movie or on our cover this week, and

that's what's hilarious. But like, and the movie is fun, but they're and and it made a ton of money, and maybe people are worshiping that a little bit. I just that's that's slightly embarrassing to me. I don't have a problem with it. I don't know. Um, you know, I didn't I didn't think the dead of all the things that I liked about Deadpool, I don't know that the script was, you know, so groundbreaking or original. But I don't have a problem with it being nominated, you know.

I mean, obviously there there might be things I find worthier. I'm trying to rack my brain right now. This is where I embarrassingly admit I haven't seen love and friendship. Well, I don't know, it's you're apparently not alone. But uh yeah, so now people are thinking, hey, it's it's deadpooling Oscar possibility. No, I make up, but I really think that's it. I mean, I guess what if Brian Reynolds gets in for Best Actor. I'd be dumbfounded. Really, I mean, I love the guy.

It's a great little performance. He was made for the role. Look, I grew up reading Deadpool comics like this is in my wheelhouse. I get it, but like its services that I don't think there's anything. There's also this narrative behind it about like how long it took to get made and how they had to you know, fight for that and yeah, and then the movie makes a ton of money and does all this does as well as it's doing, and then get rid of the director for the next movie.

Like what's the buzz on that? I don't know anything about it. I just think that when you have a formula and it worked and you cut off the head, that's curious. But I don't know any Maybe we should get justin crawled down here and talk. I you want to point out that, um, the writers, as credited in the Deadpool credits are the real heroes. So if Deadpool wins, I guess does do they announce the award goes to the real heroes? Really? Like in the movie, remember the

opening credits. The other thing this movie has stuck around, it's almost a year and it's it's I mean, kudos to Fox. I mean they knew they wanted to do this kind of irreverent like we're in to an Oscar campaign and really, what else did they have? Until Hidden Figures came along, which I'm so happy got into w j A Yes Yes and opens this weekend wide. I

think it's going to be huge. I took my whole family went to see it, and it was like my nephew aged thirteen, and my father aged seventy three, Like everybody loved it and just had these giant smiles. The one movie my mom was asking about when she was really she was like, have you heard about this movie? I love when my parents said, hey, have you heard anything about this movie that you've been talking about for

the last three months. If my mom always gets the titles wrong, it's all is like figured, well, you know the running joke with my dad and Hugh Jackman, he it's Hugh Jackman is his favorite actor, but he can never remember his name, And when I reminded him that it's Hugh Jackman, he says, Stu Jackson. And I told the story to Hugh Jackman at one point and he said, in your father's defense, Hugh Jackman is a weird name. It isn't interesting. Loving and Moonlight were nominated in Original

correct Adapted by the Academy. They'll be adapted by the Academy so that opens up room for Captain fantastic I'm hoping yeah, and presumably. Well the other thing is there's other guilds this week, So could dead Pool be a PGA nominee? I mean seven fifty million dollars? Like, I think there was a time where that could have happened. I mean, the PGA used to nominate movies like Harry Potter the first one, and they did. Wow, I didn't know that. That was back when they had five alive

in as we've established, if anything, you were in your diapers. Yes, uh, yeah, they used to nominate just five in that year. It was Shrek and Harry Potter actually get out. Since then, they've expanded it to ten. They've they've opened up an animated category, and they've like merged with other groups, so it's just a completely different organization. Really, can you be nominated for Best Film by PGA but also in animated or oh? Interesting? Not that I don't believe. So well,

it's the everyone gets an award, Yeah, exactly exactly. But what do you think anything with these guilts coming up to Like with p g A, for instance, I think I've been a little down on Arrival's chances of people are like, what the hell's wrong with you? And I just look, I just know. I mean it's it's honestly odd to me that it's doing well. I'm thrilled, but you know, I think you used the Nightcrawler comparison. Yeah, the dragon tattoo. Maybe. I mean it's just this hip

thing that will appeal to young members and guilds. But I don't. But someone someone made a point to me that the difference here is there's a very emotional component's arrival yal yeah, yeah, And it's such a good adaptation. I know I've been like flogging this for a while on Twitter, but you know, having read the short story it's based on, it is like a textbook definition of a great adaptation, you know, being very true to the source material in some way, but making it its own thing.

I just, um, I don't know how his name is pronounced, but Eric heiss er Heiser. If I just say it really fast, I messed up. Uh what was I gonna say? Va Villaineuve? I think villain who was going to get it for d g A I hope. So, I mean it just makes sense for them to nominate him, and he came around late in the game good ultimately because he was doing Blade Runner. I think if there's like any PGA surprises, I would love for it to be

something like Captain Fantastic. Um. I think Hidden Figures is in. We've always been pretty secure about that one. I think that'll be that sort of the American Sniper story where um, you know, didn't do so well leading up to the Oscars. But I'm still holding out hope for Geroggie. I think you know, look, they haven't really I think the surprising

thing was missing the editing nomination. I kind of thought that that was and for me, Tom Hanks failing to get a Golden Globe or Sagnam, like, literally, what does his man have to do? You know, they showed certainly golden Globe, yet they showed a clip package for him at Palm Springs. By the way, he was the bell of the ball. He introduced Natalie Portman, gave an amazing speech, Andrew Garfield gave him a big shout out. Then he uh,

you know, accepted his Icon Award. I guess it's called and uh you know, they showed this clip package and there was it's like I forget, like some of these movies that Tom Hanks did. I still don't know how he missed for Captain Phillips after that last infuriates me. It's just like what happened that he was every he worked hard, that he that he doesn't want it. Well, he got doubly burned because he was also excellent and saving Mr Banks. Yeah, but maybe you know, maybe, look,

nobody's feeling sorry for Tom Hanks. Having would be the first to say it. Probably. I love that he just seems to be having the best time wherever he goes. He's just he's being Tom Hanks. He will win an Emmy for David S. Pumpkins though that there is there a place where you can nominate something like that. Yeah, it's in the I guess Catagoris. I think justin timber Lake might have one that bring it on down to

whatever that sketch you Yeah, oh, I know it's hilarious. Yes, well, I think it was the year of blank in a box. He come on, I am a lady. I am a young lady of twenty two who does not speak. What else should we cover? I feel like there's not a lot to say for a few weeks here. What do you think will Happen at the Globe's and Best Actor for a Drama. I mean, I don't know Casey Denzel, there's a part of me maybe a the pipe dream I'm reading for Vigo as well. Um, I feel like

they'll probably get in line with Casey. But I do think that Manchester is like not fully their cup of tea, and they kind of like we should probably nominate it, right, And they also want to match up with the Oscars so they can say they are predictors. So but I don't know how true that is though, Like you don't want people. It's not like they get together in a room and say, Okay, we gotta get the Oscars correct. Like I don't know. I think that's exactly what I

really do. I think that they're nominally Aaron Taylor Johnson for Nocturnal Animals. No. I think like the nominations can be a little out there, but ultimately they want to give it to the person who's going to win the Oscar so that they can say, you know, we've predicted the Oscar winners, and you know, it makes it a bigger deal. It makes people, you know, want to be nominated more campaign more go to the go to the show. What I've always said about the Globes is it's it's

a stellar marketing opportunity. That's what it is. I mean, it's they're the one show this where the critics choice dropped the ball this year. They're the one show in the middle of voting, right, so uh it makes them more relevant and uh, you know, it presents all of that marketing capital for you to to spend. So it's it's you know, it is Oscar voting open right now? Yes, Oh wow, Okay, this morning ballots went out. Anything that you want to make sure, like if any voters are listening, like,

please put this screener in consider this person. Anything. Have you heard of this movie called La La Land I just turned into on the radar. No sorry, I did a La La lan q and A with Ryan Goslin last night, and I have to reiterate um, because the movie is fun and to some extent lighthearted. I don't know if people really appreciate the hard hard work these actors did, I mean not just learning to in his case,

play the piano, singing and dancing. But gosh, I just kept thinking, you know this, this movie looks like a hundred million dollars, but it was shot it's more us an independent movie to some degree between and thirty. Yeah, um, but like I just kept thinking, like, you know, they do these long takes, they're losing light. You know, nobody wants to be the person who, like you've just completed a big musical number shot in one take and you

sneeze and blow the tag or something. You would like to remind Academy voters of the movie that is likely to receive about thirty nominate. I would like to remind them of the performances and not to take them for granted a lot of time. Um, so you think Emma and Ryan will win? Oh no, I'm talking about nominations. See, but like every year there's a big shocker that's left off, and I could see, like, you know, like what if

Ryan gets left off? That often happens yet because of people taking things for granted, Like, oh, Ben Affleck is safe, I'm gonna vote for Ben's Bene Ben Dozens. Yeah, you could have chosen people two different names. That Ben and Ben was very in my mind. I saw Ben spelled b e h n, so I knew our listeners are smart. Yeah, they are very smart. Um, I think, uh, you know again, not it's not a dark horse per se, but hidden figures.

Kevin Costner doing some of the best. He was, you know, one of our I guess the last yeah, the last podcast was coming interview. He's great in that movie and uh really just comfortable in the role. And and I think that's a difficult thing to pull off looking so at ease in a character, you know. And let's talk about some of those supporting actors in Fences. Oh yeah, I met Michael T. Williamson at our was that our brunch yesterday? Missed him? Sorry, I was busy talking to

Matt Ross. Well, yeah, yeah, I would. I would say Kevin's Kevin's a good one. Kevin's a great one. I mentioned in our top fives. You know, Not that I think anyone's gonna take this seriously, but I do think Anton Yelchin was really good in Room and uh like like really good, not just like serviceable, like really good. So I'd like to throw out the lobster for screenplay as well. I think that's going to get in. Um. Look, best actor is a crazy crowded field like a while ago,

was looking like really really empty. Um, but you know if if people could check out the founder. I think Michael Katon is really really good. Yeah, he's he's hard to like not root for. Here's when we both agree with and it's a seg uh. Maybe consider it for more than just best documentary. I mean it's one of the best films of the year period and people do

is the interview this week? Really? Can I just tell you one of my favorites speaking of how my dad never remembers names or people he's I will not even tell you how many times he's but her Tom Hilson's name. I mean, the man's name is Tom. It's not that hard. But the one person that he has never forgotten he met her two years ago at that brunch. Have we talked about this on this podcast. I don't know. I

feel like people might be. I know that I've talked about it at length on Twitter that my dad is in love with Avid Verney. Yes, yes, she's the one that left left the mark on your day go fig here. Well, she is a striking person. She is gorgeous and um, I would not mention how much my father is in love with her, except he is also a huge fan of her work. So it's I don't want like to get in trouble the way Steve Martin did by pointing

out that Carry Fisher is beautiful and also talented and amazing. Yeah, I know, I'm actually that's that's the world we live in. But anyway, throw to shout out for Patriot's Day, Patriots Day, the editing especially, Yeah, the way that movies put togethers and deep Water. Yeah, these late arrivals that are really really deserving. Definitely. All right, we'll stay tuned for AVA

right after this. Again. This episode of Playback is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures with Sully, which Richard Brody of The New Yorker says, is quote a deeply felt achievement directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron A. Cart and Laura Lenny for your consideration. In all categories, Amendment to the Constitution makes it unconstitutional for someone to be held as a slave. There are exceptions, including criminals.

The bloophole was immediately exploited, but you got after that was a rapid transition to a mythology of black commonality that needed to be controlled better. Believe, became virtually impossible for a politician to run and appear soft on crime, the kinds of kids that are called super predatories. Millions of dollars will be allocated for prison and jail facilities. Three strikes and you are. It was an enormous burden in the black community, but it also violated a sense

of core fairness. After all, don't welcome back everyone. I'm here with thirteen director Ava du Vernay, Ava Havany Yere Chris. It's two seventeen. Aren't we glad to put two thousand sixteen behind? I think we all are. Yeah, I'm glad we finally got you in here. By the way, I know, I like I like this place. I've been trying to relay it in for months now. I was willing to go to the set of your movie to talk to you if I had to. You're so busy, You're such a busy lady. Now. I wanted to come, but I

got five jobs. I know. Well, let me ask you about that. Actually, do you I mean, I'm not well, I don't know. I don't think I'm lazy. But if I can find a way to not leave the house, I probably you won't leave the house. Do you? Is living such a full life super important to you. Um, I feel like I am living a busy life when it comes to work, but not the fullest life I can live like as an overall human being. I mean, you have a family and a child, and I'm like,

have nine jobs, you know what I mean. So one of my resolutions for the New Years to try to actually have a fuller life that's not just all work because between the television show and the doc and then shooting a new movie and array my work with a ray Our distribution collaborative, you know, it's just a lot of work. Yeah. Well this movie, you know, speaking of like how busy you are you're working on it and I didn't know you were working on this movie quiet projects.

Yeah yeah, I don't know. This felt like one that didn't need to be like announced in the trades, right as I said in the Trade office, Um, just because I think I got more access to folks because we weren't kind of waving the flag that we were doing it. Um, you know, I was approaching people as it was was an exploration and investigation into some of these things that I want to know more about. Um. So yeah, I felt like the trade article maybe could wait until later.

I'm glad we did. Yeah, well, I knew about it a long time ago myself, So I knew about this secret A small handful of folks, yes, but uh yeah, just that idea of being so busy in your work life. What does that speak to? Is that kind of how you were raised? Is there a work ethic instilled in you?

Is sorely work ethic. My father owned his own business, and so you know, just that kind of around the clock here that you have to give to something as an entrepreneur, or something that I definitely saw in my mother of course at different times of my life working two three jobs. I think for me it's more about Um, I don't know, I feel like this kind of a ticking career wise, only because I have not seen anyone that is like me that has had a long career

doing what I do. I can't point to Yeah, I can't point to any women who have had, you know, a thirty year career that's consistent an American woman anyway, certainly not American woman of color. Um, very few you know filmmakers of color period from this country, and so there's not like there's a whole lineup of folks I can say, oh, I want to have a career like that, So that leads me to believe that that kind of career is rare and that I don't find myself to

be exceptional. So in line with that, I should be a realist and make as much as I can, truly make as much as I can during this time. I mean, you know, favor in Hollywood, in the industry comes in and out, and so right now I have some attention and the windows open and there's some favor and uh, you make as much as you can while you can. Well that speaks to what I think is really interesting about your career right now is it's a sense of escalation, like you put your foot down on the on the

gas and you haven't let off. You know, you started with documentaries, you moved into intimate dramas, go off and do Selma, which is not like it's still an intimate drama and very much you, but it's obviously there's a bigness about a movie like that. And then something like thirteen. It's not like you you know, found some like shoe Repairman in Alabama and made like a little profile documentary. This is a significant work. And now you're doing this

hundred million dollar large scale Disney movie. I feel like at some point we're gonna see your Star Wars movie or something. He's just kind of the What I'm saying is the trajectory is just like this, and uh, I guess everything you just said speaks to that. Well. It's funny because when you say trajectories like this, your hand went up as if it was like ascent. I just feel like it's. Ah, I don't know what linear or

elateral like. It's just continuing, which is my only desire, you know, whether I'm I'm making Wrinkling Time for Disney or The Thirteenth, which was just a very started at as a very small doc and a very small doc for Netflix, or whether or not I jump in to do my own indie project next, which is what I'll be doing next. I just need to keep working, you know what I mean. I'm not trying to improve anything

or go anywhere specific. I just want consistency, and that's been what has been lacking in the careers of so many women and people of color for so long. Yeah, I hear you well, speaking of thirteen, Uh, I just want to pause here. First of all, the movie is. It's a documentary about what how this country has found a way to exist as a perpetual slave state through mass incarceration, prison industrial complex. If you haven't seen thirteen,

you can do it right now. You can press pause, Ava and I will be here when you get back. Just pick us up when you're finished. You'll you'll be the conversation will be richer as a result. I think, um, you know, like I said, it was kind of under the radar, But when when did you first decide I

want to make a movie about this subject? Yeah? It was the most unlikely phone call was a call from Lisa Nashamuro, who hads documentaries at Netflix, asking do you want to make a doc which I translated into are you going to give me money to make it? I still think very indemnded. When I was the first three films, I spent my own money to make them, you know, and scraping up the money. So when they said, you know that they wanted to go ahead and fund something.

My pitch was to do a piece about the prison industrial complex, mostly the money that's being made off punishment, profit off punishment, and that process and the power all tied up into that. But as I got into that, I realized you can't really tell that story and talk about like prison labor now that J. C. Pennies or Victoria's Secrets was practicing or or dabbling in for a while without people understanding the black codes and reconstruction in prison labor during that time. So okay, So now I

have to go back and tell you that. Okay, So, but you're not gonna understand that unless you know the context of the time. When I gotta get back to slavery. Okay, if I'm in slavery, I might as well tell you. Do you know about the thirteenth the moment? Let me tell you about that. Then that comes up Jim Crow. If I'm talking about Michelle Alexander's new Gym Crow the book, you gotta know what the old Gim Crow was. So the pieces started to fit together where it became quite expansive,

a lot bigger than I originally bit off. I think that's a beautiful thing about doc is it takes you where it wants to go or it needs to go, and you, as the filmmaker and the documentarian have to just follow that. Yeah, well, you uh, you know, obviously you studied African American studies in U. C. L A. And so a lot of this stuff. It didn't feel like to me like you said, Okay, I'm gonna go off and do this movie and you explored it. Felt

like you were ready to tell this story. And that is what I mean, like you had it all ready to go and to explore and how to explore it. Uh. That having been said, uh, was there anything when you got into it that you learned that was just like an arresting sort of thing you didn't really know? M I mean, yeah, the great thing about it is thank you for that compliment that. The great thing about it

is I knew where I wanted to go. I think a lot of the time spent um on documentaries about discovery, but so much of it I knew, and I was just ready to tell the story and wanting to see it all put together in this way, not like it hasn't been told in other places, but a bit of it's here, a bit of it's there. And my thought was, well, if we could put it in one place, an overview, a primer for people that don't know anything about it or people that know it, and the pieces, but there's

something about seeing it all together. But within that what I didn't know really anything about. I mean, I knew it wasn't good, but I didn't know the depths of ALEC at the time that I was making the dock. Uh. And so as I was getting in there and talking about privatization in prison and um and uh, particularly the companies that were profit profiting off of services inside of prison, the phone calls that are made, the food, you know,

the health care services. Looking into those contracts, it led me into ALEC. And and that was the hardest part of the dock for me because I didn't know anything about it, so I couldn't use my best judgment, Oh let's go look up this or let's tell them about this, as I was able to do in other parts of the dock. I was learning it from scratch, and I really stumbled over It took me a long time to a learn it myself enough so that I could share it with somebody else, and I went down a rabbit hole.

I mean, it's sidetracked me for like six months because I was just messed up over alec UM. But but yeah, no, it's it's startling that there's a shadowy group of people who are not lawmakers, who are crafting our loss and that we abide by and that so many of us are in prisoned under So it was important to be in there and in that time, John Oliver did that segment on it, so you can. Yes, I mean I was so so struggling off of how to put that together and then that piece and I thought there's nothing

better than a little humor to lighten it up. Yeah, it's staggering. Um. I wanted to talk about formal aspects of the movie because something that's stuck out to me, specifically framing and camera movement, uh, is that you frame your subjects a lot of the time just they seem a little bit overwhelmed by their environment, the infrastructure, architectural elements, you know, a vast brick wall, a large empty you

know building. Just there's something about how you're framing people within their space, and I just wanted to talk about that, as well as the way you move your camera in the movie, like how you wanted the visual storytelling to come across. Yeah, and I thank you for the question.

I really could ask that. Um My idea for the just production design which sometimes I say production design and I'm talking to people about the dock, and I get the eye roll, like, yeah, it's your production design where they sat when you wented to Cabra, But it really was. And my whole idea was labor. I wanted all of the kind of backdrops in the spaces within which they

were sitting and talking to me to denote labor. So a lot of steel, brick and slate, glass, um stone and um, you know of the space where we interview Angela Davis for example, you know, an old abandoned train station in Oakland, so that you can see the decay on the walls of this kind of grand structure to concrete falling off. So that was the big idea behind it. And then within that certainly, um you know, a camera that was wide so that we can kind of have

these spaces, which is what prison is. It's a space that you're captured within. UM kind of give a feel of a feeling of um captivity that they were kind of caught in my frame and unable to kind of move. But then there's space. There were places where and I went to juxtapose that were places where the analysts and expert I was talking to were really able to break

free of their space. And so that's why I set up the three sixty dollar So there was a dolly actually two eighty dollar that was moving around the subjects and around me, behind my back and around me throughout all of the interviews. So static camera in multiple frame sizes. Uh, and then the dolly, which I think there's a point where we use the dolly more with people. UM. And when we cut cut that in, it's really during moments where we want to underline or highlight what's being said.

So anyway, it was great. I was in a Q and A the other day, a community Q and A and the lady was like, I love that floating camera and I was like, don't you love people watching movies. It's like, ma'am, thank you, I appreciate it. It's like, what do you call that? I said, you call it a dolly? Man? I know, it's just it's lovely. Um. When did you decide to treat the word criminal the

way you did? Oh? That was the idea that came probably midway through the process with my editor and great friend Spencer Afric, who I shared the writing credit on on this film. UM really wanted to just examine the ways in which African Americans have been uh criminalized is through d humanization. And the way that you de humanize

is by calling people anything but human. And so whether it's criminal, whether it's the N word, whether it's thug, all of different ways that the media, the press, um, and you know, the society at large been affected by these labels anything other than man or woman or human being. And so it's important to to to play with those those ideas throughout. And then the importance of music. You have public enemy pops up, dead prayers, you've got the King of Names songs. Just what was the importance of

music and telling the story? Well, my idea, my my idea behind that was that that you know, the black musical tradition has been one of protests around these very ideas of criminalization and de humanization of black people for as long as we can remember, whether it's you know, uh uh Negro spiritual so called Negro spirituals or protest

music during the Civil Rights movement are certainly hip hop. Um. We even have you know, a black opera singer and are our black composer Jason Moran doing some work with the operatic voice around um with the Negro spiritual. So the idea that artists, that artists with a voice, from Nina Simone to Chuck D have been talking about police, They've been talking about imprisonment, They've been talking about the criminal justice issues throughout. I mean, there's so many songs

we could have pulled from. We just didn't have the cash to you know, sull out for Marvin Gaye was what's going on? You know what I mean? But I would have um great stuff. But so often artists have been on the forefront of narrating the experience, the black experience, specifically around these issues, and so I want to highlight that a little. Chuck D. Listen, you can't go wrong

with the check. I was definitely bobbing my head. Uh you you were finishing this film up, you know, in kind of the home stretch of the election, and it started handing you stuff that you had to use. I mean, obviously the Donald Trump segment that took off viral e right around the election where he's talking about the good old days. When you're in the middle of making a movie and the zeitgeist is so informing it in that way as you're making it, like what does what does

that feel like. I mean, is it just like because you have to be, on one hand kind of caught between this is a gift and this is still awful like stuff that I'm having to deal with artistically. But just what does that feel like when you're in the heat of something like that and everything is informing what you're working on. Well, I've experienced it twice now, you know.

With Yeah, with Someone we were right in the middle of Mike Brown's murder and Ferguson and we were cutting the summer, cutting Selma marches and beatings, the summer of Ferguson marches and beatings, and we're trying to limit voting rights that in that absolutely in that same time as well, um and then certainly with the thirteenth, with everything happening

with the with the campaign. I think that thing that we've tried to show Spencer and I in both instances is restraint and to really think about the pieces Evergreen standing alone from whatever current trend or whatever is happening in the current moment. I mean, there was no we were determined not to cut Selma differently than we had already planned, even though we were going home at night and seeing images that we're bouncing off of what we

had just cut, you know. Uh, And we were determined in this very much so not to become engulfed in all the election rhetoric. It would have been. It could have been really easy to expand or dedicate a whole section to that fight. Um. And it was a fight. But then what would it have been in December or January when you watch it, It would have been, you know, tagged as something of that time, and all the information that has nothing to do with those two people, those

two candidates would be lost in it. And so we wanted to try to keep an eye on making it evergreen. And so I've been satisfied with going back and watching the dock after the election. Um, it resonates in a differ way, but I'm not lost. It doesn't feel dated because we did not kind of indulge in the low hanging fruit of you know, the sensational elements of the campaign and beyond just the here and now. I mean, they're both of them were candidates who have a history. Yeah,

that's what we embraced. It was just the fact that they were a part of the story. Uh. So they they they were they fell into the narrative naturally and authentically, and they were always planned to be in it before either emerged. I mean I was working on it for two years, so before either emerged as the the nominee for their party. Uh, they were in it, both of them, and so we just stayed true to that and tried not to kind of get to two of the moment

with it. Yeah, and I thought it was very important too. I mean, there's nothing partisan about it. The Clintons have their their situation to deal with here with this source or this subject matters. I think that one of the big things a couple of folks to that you should have put that in there. It is Tailory and not against Hilory. Uh. This is what she said. That's what the lady said. This is what she said, and this

is what she said afterwards. She said it at one point and later she said, you know, things have changed. I regret that such and such. But the truth, uh is that she said it, and it deserved a place in there because those words and that thinking did impact what was happening at the time politically. Well. I think the fact is it's history that needs to be learned from, uh, which kind of brings me to my next question here. This issue of quote, law and order is very much back.

As Trump says in your in their film, he says he's the law and order candidate. Uh. The West Virginia Senator recently Joe Manchin, said that the solution for his state's opioid epidemic was to declare a war on drugs, which I think you responded to on Twitter. That sounded familiar. It's an outrageous statement and also kind of, you know, ironic, because the opioid epidemic is largely a white problem. My things. But Uh, I guess I have a question that I

don't think anyone can really answer. I'm gonna ask you anyway, why don't we learn these lessons? Uh, that's a great question, I think because they're not pointed out often enough. It feels new in the moment. If you don't know history. That's why you know some or I was African American history major, you know, some are looking back their their lessons to be learned in the past. You hear you know this this politician now talking about law and order.

And if you cannot connect that, if you cannot connect what Trump says to what's been done before and the ways in which those were that those words have been used to distort, you know, uh and and twist the realities of millions of people, particularly people of color. Then you have no context for being wrong, and there's nothing to learn. So it's so so important and I'm I'm just proud of the fact that int were just a reminding people this is not new, folks, there's none of

this is new. I think a lot of folks now are um. I see like online, we're both online quite a bit. I see a lot of people kind of trying to make connections, you know what I mean, trying to pull things together in a way that we remind ourselves where this kind of thinking leads us. Just saw something the other day, the Smithsonian magazine's account talking about how the press covered Mussolini, you know, looking back at headlines like we've been here before, how did we react

and how can we do better? And so um, I think, yeah, that's the that's the first way to kind of combat these things is to know that that we're in a continuum. I mean, there's multiple issues at play too. It's like we're also at this point now where people either believe everything they read largely from the wrong sources, or they believe nothing that they read because uh, it's just it's not an informed populace. And uh, it never really has been,

and I don't know if it ever will be. The press is more under fire today than ever in that regard. So yeah, yeah, it's complicated, complicated times. There were a couple of specific things I wanted to ask about in the film with certain subjects, like Charles Range when when he's he seemed to not really get it when he

was talking about to just say no campaign. Was that frustrating? Well, you know, he represented, um, black politicians at the time who were in favor of the you know, drug policies, particularly in Clinton with Clinton and Reagan's administration that really in the end it damaged to black and brown communities. Um. But at that time, as he says it was, there was an epidemic, there was a lot of fear in the black community that was being stoked by these politicians

to get what they wanted. And uh, and so he was a part of it. Um. I think, you know, one of the things that I was happy that he said on cameras that he was wrong, um, and that it didn't work out like he like it was promised.

I mean, I think in a lot of ways, and I think he's done a lot for the black community in his district and his state, But at that time he was used, you know what I mean, he was used, um, and promises were made that that were against the interests of the very communities he was trying to protect, and so um. This is also something that's continued to happen,

particularly around black politicians. And you know, it takes the diligent kind of politician that wants to educate themselves, especially if you're black, brown, or otherwise, to make sure that you're not the pond. This time, Yeah, and the new Gingrich had some disarmingly reasonable things to say. I know, I had faith in I mean, and like, I don't know. It was interesting. A couple of things came out of

that interview. One, I was struck by how small my own circle is in that it was startling to me to sit across from someone who had this the radically different point of view than I am, Like just for me personally, I thought, wow, I should know more people in my life, like as a black woman, I will you know, easily kind of slap the hand or criticize white people who don't know any black people. Right, It's like, dude,

get a life in their personal life. Um. But I'm you know, a liberal who don't who does not know any conservatives. Like if I wanted to have some conservatives over my home, they would be strangers walking into my house to have a conversation. And that's not healthy either. We need to be able to expand you know, are are who we're talking to on a daily basis. Um. And so that was one thing that struck me as I was talking about to all these conservatives interviewed over

twenty for the doc. There's a lot of people we don't identify, we don't say they're liberal conservative. And a lot of these people in the prison reform they sound quote unquote liberal because they're saying to do away with with prison as it is now. But many of the people I talked to our conservatives. Um. And Anyway, it was startling to me to sit down with someone like

Newt and hear him say those things. I've been talking that way in smaller circles for a while, so I knew what I was going to get if I can get to it. But um, I've also kind of done a double take with some of the stuff that's coming out now from him. I was going to say, how do you reconcile? I can't where he is, I can't reconcile, and I just I don't know. I mean, I just I one of them is disingenuous, you know, one of them.

One of them is not right. You weren't telling the truth somewhere, because there's no way you can hold those two points of view and be saying, do you have a line into him? What my new column be like new what's going on? Yeah? No, it's it's it's um, I'm I'm interested in knowing myself. Yeah, Van Jones and Jones. He's fairly it's interesting. I'll let you ask. The question stands out as a as a dominant voice in the film, I think, and certainly after this year and the voice

he's had on on TV. When I can stomach CNN, he is one of the few things that I can stomach to that because everything is like, I can't. Someone took a dump on Trump star, Let's go to our CNN panel. Yeah, I can't, what is that? But anyway, what kind of uh? He's interesting to me, and I'm curious about his future as a journalistic voice, Like what do you think, I'm excited about it. When I first

said that, I've known him for a little bit. I saw him doing some stuff on stand in for Selma the march that the President participated in the fiftieth anniversary, and I reached out to him just to say, you know, I love what he had said, and so we stayed in touch, and when I asked him to do this, he first came into the interview and he was He's not the van we know now. I mean, he's always been brilliant, but he was very when he first sat down.

The interview was very I don't know, um, are you talking? Point like he because he's talked about this stuff so much. He travels the country talking about prison reform and his his organization cut fifty and so I just turned off the camera for a second. I said, I just I just need you to talk to us. And me like, okay, we're just home. He's hanging out, like really tell me the real real deal, like in the non TV voice,

like really give it to us. He was like okay, and it just this amazing interview came out where he really is. He shines because he kind of and now I see that guy more on national team and not saying that we did it, but he's embracing something where his voice is so clear right now. It's one of the few points of clarity I think on the airwaves

that I'm just thrilled with it and excited for him. Brilliant, brilliant guy and a big public intellectual that I'm glad we have his his voice out there, and I'm so happy that we were able to capture in that particular interview we shot that. It was one of our later ones. We shot that, Uh, probably in the spring of last year. Yeah, yeah, Uh, strange question, but you know, we gotta get our our everything together here. Who should care? Who should lead the

Democratic Party? Okay, I don't do you even have an answer? Is it an unfair question? I just I shake my head. It is. Um. The whole thing is such a disappointment, uh, from top to bottom, from all sides. I just I can't believe there's no strong voice of dissent. There's no I mean, I can't tell you there's no one that I'm looking at. You know, that's how that's been strong enough that's at the backbone that's been Someone will emerge. I'm confident. I can only pray that someone will emerge.

It has to, because this kind of apathetic kind of just it's just it's just the responses at this point. It's been weak in my view to a very very It's something that deserves a strong opposition. Um and uh. I can't see who it is now. I hope someone emerges sooner than later. Who do you think people talk about Gavin Newsom a lot. I mean, he's very What was the joke someone made recently, Bill Maher said he looks like he's out of central casting, which is true.

I mean he looks a little yeah, but he's he's been opening his mouth. Somebody's got to I mean he's been certainly in this state, which is at the forefront of progressive he's been a very great leader for that. So I don't know. He stands out as a possibility. But I don't know, man. I mean when I think when you said leader of the party, I'm thinking of someone that's within striking distance of doing that. I mean, I mean he's a great someone, a long way to

go to get there. I'm just who is right there to take it, you know, the people that are standing right there just you know, yeah, not not not doing it. Yeah, I don't know. There's certainly a lot of depression to go around it. Absolutely every want to snap out of it in the new year. Yeah, I think I'll just say this. I really think it's going to be. And I was talking to a friend about this. It's going to be. The power of the image is one that we all know as people who love film and practice

film is a striking emotional thing. And when he lifts his hand, puts his hand on that Bible and takes that oath and we see the image, I really I pray that that is a thing that shakes us out of the stupor like this is like a bad reality show and it's not real, or something's going to happen and turn it all around, because then it's done. And I'm dreading the image, but it is coming and it

is real. And Obama. I was there the day that Bush took off in air for or Marine one at the inauguration and Obama was there raising his hand and this is gonna be Obama taking off a Marine one. And who's left this guy raising his hand and walking into that house and living there maybe if you decide, or making New York at nightmare exactly. So it's it's you know, I think just for for you know, in

terms of the storytelling that people are telling themselves. You know, that image is going to be a powerful one that this country either we'll descend into a full on depression or will really shake some people out of their stupor. I think mainly people need to realize there's nothing that's gonna bail us out in the next three weeks two weeks. It's like, you know, the electors, that wasn't gonna happen, and none of these things are going to happen, like

this is it, this is it? And uh, impeachment maybe maybe, but you know everybody seems to beginning in line, so probably. All right, let's let's uh, this is a depressing conversation, Christopher, let's talk about wrinkle. How's that going okay to be detailed? No, no, no no, but let me tell you this is my

life thirteen and trump. You know, bad feelings, and then I get to go in and just work on Wrinkle, and my whole mood just changes because I get to create creatures and deal with beautiful children and great actors and costumes and just it's a self care moment, a little escape. I do, I really do, because at that making thirteenth and like, you know, editing a thousand hours of racist, violent footage and like trying to wrap my mind around all these really complex issues about dehumanization in

the ways that we oppress each other. Um took a toll, you know, right after Selma. It was just like lady comes, you know, just sit back and relax a little bit. And so That's what I've been doing with this. I mean not relaxing. It's obviously intense, but the subject matter itself is not harmful to my heart every time I go home, and so I've been enjoying it. Did the scale of this projects? Have you just taken that in stride?

Is it? Yeah? I love it? I I people always ask me that, like I'm about to break in half, but I mean, I mean not like you did. But I was like, yeah, of course, I mean, it's it's making a fuel, but it's making a movie. I Mean. The one thing that I've I've really learned from it is there's never enough money or time. The day is going to end, the sun is going to go down. It does not matter what's on your getn't make it or you didn't. And it's the same if I'm making

my first film, phone were're making this film. It's like the bottom line you have to look after in the eye. You have to get the truth of the performance. You have to understand that story, and you have to do it in a certain amount of daylight hours or not. And all the bells and whistles around it have been really lovely. You know. I was able to hand pick

my crew. Disney was fantastic, and that I was able top to bottom to put together the people around me who made me comfortable, who were like minded, forward thinking, and who had no problem being directed by a woman. And um so it's been just a beautiful experience and quite um I can't swim. I can't swim, like me personally, but it's like just because I haven't. It's like a kid, like when you put a baby in the pool, right, I think you're about to tell me some story about

how you fell into some water. That's a metaphoric analogy, if that is such a term. But yeah, you put a baby who could swim, and you put her in the pool and the baby just swims. I'm told I'm like a baby in the pool. I've never slam, but I'm swimming and um it feels good, awesome. Well, hopefully we can get you back in here to talk about that when it comes out. I hope so. And uh.

In the meantime, like I said, if you didn't watch it when we told you to go, yeah, press pause on this and go to Netflix a laptop app that you can watch. You to take your fingertips, do it. Ava, Thanks for coming on the show. I was like talking to you all right. Thanks. Thanks for listening everyone. Remember to subscribe and check back next week. You've been listening to Playback at Variety once again. This episode of Playback

has been brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. With Sully selected as one of the best films of the Year by a f I based on Captain Sully Sullenberger's Unforgettable Landing on the Hudson River, directed by Clint Eastwood, Produced by Clint Eastwood, Frank Marshall, Alan Stewart and Tim Moore, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, and Laura Lenney. For your consideration, in all categories,