Ep16 - Viola Davis / "Fences"

what you it's our podcast, ours really. I do want to preface this by saying that this year has been pretty bad for me for movies. You know. It's there's a lot of stuff I really liked, but very little I loved. I don't know what it was the deal, Like, I just was every time I put like a screener

in that everyone's been recommending, I've just been disappointed. Um well, it's funny you would say that, because last night I wasn't joking when I texted you that I was watching The Shallows because I felt like I couldn't complete my list without seeing it. Because so many people had told me how good it was. I did that with Don't Breathe. Oh,

I did like don't Breathe. But but then see, the whole thing about like the shallows are don't Breathe is that you're not expecting them to be good, and then when you discover them, you feel awesome. And since everyone had told me how awesome the Shallows was, I was a little disappointed. So I did not make my top So it did not make five. No, I'm sorry to say, but it was very entertaining. But yes, so top five.

Do you want to do your hoorable mentions? First? First? Oh? Okay, Well, um, I suspect we we tend to agree more than we disagree. I think, um my top five plus honorable mentions list is very electic. The honorable mentions that didn't quite make the list were I love certain genre films like Captain America. Civil War I thought was so fantastic and coming on the heels of Batman versus Superman fantastic, Civil War fantastic. Well,

now you're giving away my top five. Um. I thought it showed how you could actually make two superheroes that you care about fight against each other and have real stakes and have them both be right and both be wrong, and I I thought it was great. I loved to Rival. Um. I loved The Conjuring too, although there was a point in that movie where I literally said to my friend, why do I do this to myself? You have nightmares? I'm freaking out. And then to feel Good movies that

that almost made the top five were Lying and Hidden Figures. Yeah. I loved both of them, just sobbed at both of them. They definitely win my Ugly cry Face of the Year Award movies. But my top five is very colectic, obviously when I get into it yet, oh no, let me throw out my honorable motion. Only one of those is online, which is lyon, hugely emotional, amazing story. I've got Birth of a Nation on here. It's taken some knocks, I

think from some snobby critics. Frankly sorry, but you know, I think it's just like a thunderbolt out of Nate Parker's soul in a in a very great movie. Um. I was pleasantly surprised by how good that movie was. I did not expect it to be that good. I have fences, It's basically the play understood, but when your subject, when your source material is that powerful, it's going to transcend into the film space. And it did for me. I mean, it blew me away. Those performances are fantastic.

I don't think fire See the documentary necessarily works as a work of art. By the way, before I get into this one, that's a longer conversation. I think it's juxtaposition of of kind of the ordinary things happening on this island while the migrant crisis is happening, with what's happening with the migrant crisis. I don't think that works artistically, but nevertheless, I think it's important to see a movie like that to know what the hell is going on

in the middle of the Mediterranean. It's pretty riveting for that jungle book, right, you're a big Jungle Book fan. I mean I'm a I'm a big fan of what it portends for the business. Because, uh, they pulled it out, pulled it off of the plum. I mean it's like it's it's you know, if that's the future. I believe they weren't in a jungle something. I know it's supposed to be all c g I and a warehouse in

downtown Los Angeles is insane. I've got rogue one. I have not seen Roquine well, no spoilers, but it's it's everything that everyone seemed to think the Force awakens. I was not. It was a It was pure confection. This is the first time I've ever felt steaks in a Star Wars and I'm not a big Star Wars fan, by the way, So take take that with for whatever you need. You know how I love in Star Wars? Is that Mr spot guy. I'm just I'm just here to piss off some narrators, of which I am one,

So I did it. They didn't even say that. I love his scenes with Gandalf. And my last one is a Sausage Party. Your favorite movie of the year, My favorite movie the year's Passengers? What do you mean these are the two movies I think we disagree on. Yeah, well, Passengers certainly, I just look, my brain was at the door for that one. But Sage Party, I I feel Seth Romans like our our great theologian. Uh look, Sausage Party was fun, it had some Really, I don't think

it's nearly as clever as it thinks it is. I don't think it thinks it's clever. I think. I think it's just Jerry proud of itself when it has things like, oh, the crackers don't get along with the Grits, get it, and the bagel sounds like necessarily, I think it's just like, I mean, I hear what you're saying, and I understand why you have that perspective, But I actually I don't think that it's like going for that reaction personally. I literally think it's stone people in the room coming up

with jokes together. It's very funny. So um, the opening number is fantastic. Um. I hate that it sort of sells itself out at the end. I don't want to do spoilers, but it basically throws away the whole premise and and goes for a cheap joke, which kind of bummed me out. But look at what there are worse ways to spend what was it, ninety minutes something like that? Number five. I don't know that I necessarily ranked these. I guess I kind of do it. I think I could. Um,

number five would be the Lobster. I loved this movie, and you know, I have avoided seeing Dog Tooth because the description sounded so unpleasant. And now that I get this guy's style, I think I have to go back and see it. I thought Colin Farrell was fantastic. I think Olivia Coleman has the best line of the year as the hotel manager who says, um, you know, uh, if you're having trouble in your relationship, will assign you children. That always helps. I just and I wish that the

screenplay was getting a little more love. I know that there it did get. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's going to be a nominee. By the way play, I really do. I think that Branch would be one to to spark to it. It's it is a good movie. It's got like it owes a lot to Ionesco. Yeah, which is strange. I never like I was going to ask, which is you know, on paper, this movie is nothing I thought I would like. And I went to see it because I really like Colin barrel. Um. It also, you know

has my trigger in its you know what that is? Animals? Well, a specific animal. Yeah, um, and yet it was important to the story and um, that's a brutal moment. Yeah it is. But but I would say necessary, yeah, yeah, Um. No, I thought it thought it was a fantastic movie. My number five. You were talking about genre movies green Room. I did see Green Room. I love Jeremy Selnier. I think he's an amazing filmmaker. Filmmaker. I mean he's made

two phone well, he's made three films. The first one is really and he would admit this just kind of throw away, but Blue ruin in this, I mean he's mastered show don't tell. He's great with visual storytelling, uh it is. You know, he's really great with geography, which is crucial for a movie like this, and ten Cleverfield Lane. By the way, I'm from that area too, you know, really Portland area, so I have to say, like they

nailed it. Yeah. I told Patrick Stewart that when I when we did our studio last year, because he you know, I know, he interviewed him earlier this year for that. Yeah. I mean it's I literally would line up for anything this guy makes because I just love the way he makes movies. And by the way, I mean, I was looking at the Critics Circuit and the Best Actor winners. Casey Affleck is nominating naturally, and only two other people

have won Critics Awards for Best Actor. Adam Patterson and Denzel Washington, Adam Patterson, Adam, I mean Adam drivers he before Patterson. Uh, and so I was Patterson believe in is Adam Patterson. I just want to throw it out to some in TRIPID group. I think Anton Yelchin is great in this movie is Rest in Peace. I honestly think it's probably his best performance. He really makes you believe the terror of the of the situation and that that's no, that's no short order. So anyway, green Room

is my number five. What's your number four? Well, continuing the animal theme, it's Zootopia. Yes, animation made it. This movie is so see this is this is where I would say, like Sausage Party thinks it's being subversive because it has like a talking douche, But Zootopia is actually okay. But but why does the douchetop like it's supposed to be talking food and then suddenly toilet paper and a douche can don't get me started, You've got me started. Douches?

And supermarkets? Is it? Everything in a supermarket is live? Is that the premise? I don't know, because sometimes it's food, and then sometimes it's inanimate objects, and then sometimes it's a piece of corn. Then it's kernels of corn, like I'm gonna write a whole He thought really hard about all this, harder than I think they wanted you to think.

But z Utopia is so subversive, so clever. I mean, it's basically, uh, you know, a hundred million dollar Disney animated movie about racism, and it done so it's so clever, and it's so funny, and it made a lot of money, made a lot of money. It's also just beautiful to look at. It's it's horrible. I haven't seen it since it came out. I've been meaning to revisit. Do I do like it quite a bit? Yeah, No, it's it's I it's another one that I would pitch as a

screenplay nomination. Yeah. I think it's in the hunt, especially with those scripts that fell out of the original category recently. And it's been a great year for animated movies. I mean, I really like Milana, I liked Finding Dori, but like, I just think Utopia is just like Heads and Tails above everything else. My number four and if we get I have a feeling we might be getting into this place where I mentioned a movie that's still to come on your list. It feel free to say as little

as possib until until you get to it. My number four is Moonlight Barry Jenkins. Uh. It's obviously the year's critical favorite, and I think there's a there's a definite reason for that, which is this guy has a definitive, clear vision, point of view, voice, and it ties so interestingly with socio politics of today, identity politics certainly. Uh.

And it's incredible. I've said this before that he was able to draw out the same spirit of of of a character and three different actors the way he does. And I watched it again last week. It's just a powerful movie. It looks amazing, the editing is amazing, and it's got the best I think ensemble performance over the year. Everyone is so organic to the piece. And that's my number four, Moonlight. Um. I will just add to that mi herschel Ali, of course, Michel Ali. Of course, it's

a charmer, that guy. He definitely is. Uh. My number three is number four. Um, My number three is Moonlight. Yeah, perfect Um. And this is hard because, like I said, I did not rank these and so I'm sort of looking at them on the fly. I sort of have a three way tie for number one. Um, but all uh, you know, I'm actually a little surprised that you're number four choice because I thought it was far and away your favorite movie of the year. It was up there

for a while. Things just sift around when you start to revisit things. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I mean it's all of these movies are for me, the cream of the crop in a year that wasn't so great. Yeah, I mean I could use it tomorrow. Moonlight might be not my number one choice. Yeah, I was gonna say, actually, these five I could definitely if we did this last week or a week from now, like they might be

a different ranking. Yeah. For me, it's these it's these top three that are really all number one for me. But um, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a bit of a wild card in with my number one. That's all you're gonna say about Moonlight? I mean, one more is there to say? What else can you be? Like I said last week, like, you know, do we even like I feel like we shouldn't even put Moonlight in La La Land on our list because they're so obvious. We

should open up those spaces to other movies. But you know, I remember David Fincher said about the castine of Ben Affleck and Gone Girl. Just because it's the obvious choice doesn't make it the wrong choice. And uh, yeah it's it's every performance in that movie is perfect, you know. And yeah, it's it's just I've used up all my superlatatives. You know what else can we say superlatatives? I don't know. Did I make a word of man? I just put on my pants and yeah, uh number three for me.

A lot of great documentaries this year. I mentioned Fire at See Obviously O J O J Made in America is amazing. Not a movie. The whole podcast could be done about that. I don't have strong feelings about it. But I don't have strong feelings, but I certainly understand the people who have strong feelings that it's not a movie that I'll say that. But I think the best of them is Winer. Yeah, weener Is A is a great documentary. I I would lean more towards their teenth

because it's just so powerful and timely and relevant. But Yeah, weener Is it's pretty impressive talk about the socio politics. I mean, it's so zegeist because it's about flawed heroes. I've said this before and just media obsession with titillation and letting that get in the way of analyzing substance. I mean, is there another movie that could be more sum up this year than that? You know? And the fact, like you said, that they got the access that they did.

I think after the fact, he wishes they didn't have that access, but I'm glad that they did because it's

such a revealing portrait. It is just frailty really and uh, it's been one of the best movies of the year since I saw it, like way back in the spring, and it's my number three, and you know, I think it would still be a great movie even even if it wasn't for some of that got you stuff that they got, you know, I mean they did again, the access they got is just you look back on that and you're like, who, okay this, but thank god they did you number two? Um la la land. I mean again,

what more is there to say? It's singing for us nobody wants, although I was doing that in the car on the way here this morning. Yes, well, you know this is funny. We may have discussed this before, but my favorite songs are not even in the morning for best song. Um I was singing another day of sun, yes, and uh and the start of fires. That one actually is eligible phenomination. But yeah, that's a very very catchy tune. I mean, perfectly cast. Damien Chazelle is just what more

is there to say? I mean, you know, Whiplash was my favorite movie of Oh yeah, well that was the year of the compound word, and it was Whip Last Night, Crawler and Birdman were my three favorite movies. But there was just you know, this guy knows how to end a movie. He's really talented and he uh more importantly, he's very confident and that shows like it's it makes me mad. Yeah, I know, because very humble. He is thirty one year. He's one of the nicest guys you'll

talk to. Uh you know, hopefully he stays that way. Yeah, you never know what this business does to people. One of these days, Jacob Trompley is just going to be the biggest bastard. Uh. If Damian Chisel wins Best Director, he'll be the youngest Best Director winner ever. Yeah, but I mean, like, very deserving, kind of hard to argue with. He he isn't you know, he's a wonderin as they say, I was going to say unfun terrible, but I've mispronouced a word to day. My number two is Manchester by

the Sea Kenneth Lanagan. I keep using the word immaculate to describe it because it's really just perfectly tuned. I just watched it again last night. Um, he's I think our foremost humanist and that comes out, you know, wonderfully in the film. As I said at Casey Affleck has dominated the critics circuit for acting, and I think it's because it's an amazing performance, an amazingly internalized performance. There's so much going on with him. He's a great act

he really is. Yeah, did you see No. I guess I have to catch up to it. I'm telling you, I bet he want a lot of fans. He was really fantastic and and I was, I guess, not surprised at how funny he was, but surprised that they gave him guy, especially when you get him and Launergan together, Like I saw them both at this like Amazon thing a few weeks ago, and I was like, Launergan's hilarious. I was like, can you get I was like, Kenny,

can you go like write a sketch for him? On SNL that'd be great, and he's like, I did have an idea broad comedy sketches. Well, I mean, I bet he could deliver something interesting. It is very funny stuff, and there is funny human stuff, absolutely, and they want to make sure people point that out too, because I've certainly used the term melancholy a lot and they're like, stop saying that. And it's a freaking downer man. But there's definitely a lot of Kenny Lawnergan humor, including when

he shows up as a cameo. You know, it's funny. I think they're leaning into the sadness of it now because in Casey athlex monologue, it's night life. He kept stressing how depressing the movie, but don't really yeah, And I was like, thank you for just being frank. Um interesting notes from the Midwest. My mom called me last night to say she had seen Manchester by the Sea because she read in Parade magazine that Casey Afflect would get an Oscar nomination and she was just like, kind

of surprised at how sad it was. Well, be warned, it is a sad movie. What's your number? One? Um, I might be a surprise to everyone but you Captain Fantastic. Oh yeah, I forgot that I ruined it earlier. You did. You ruin well when I said Captain Fantastic Civil War, you said, don't win my list, and then I forgot that it was on your list when you said that, that's okay, we'll fix it in post um again. Moonlight

La La Land and Captain Fantastic. Every day you could, you could change for my favorite, but I feel like Moonlight La La Land have probably gotten enough love. I am so happy that Captain Fantastic is getting attention. For Vigo Mortenson, I'm so thrilled he got the Golden Globe nomination in the SAG nomination and in the correct category, and Golden Globes by the way, and the drama category.

And I really hope Matt Ross's script get some recognition. Um, this is such an original, weird, funny, sad, uplifting sweet movie times. Have you seen it only twice? Yeah? I know I saw when, you know, right before it first came out, and then uh, fairly recently, just so he

didn't see it a dance or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, but you know what's funny, Matt Ross was one of our directors to watch this year in January and he came to our event and I saw him in Palm Springs and I was like, oh, man, I love that actor. You know, he's great and everything. And I went up and started talking to him and then um it was his birthday, no less, and then they were like, oh, you know, we're gonna get started for the directors to watch.

And I was like, oh, are you presenting to someone and he's like, oh no, I'm one of the directors. And I was like, oh my god, I'm a sure in that that. I kind of hoped somebody would throw

a bone to this year's Franklin. Frank clinch Ella how I'm so happy I got him ensemble nomination because Catherine Hahn, Steve's on Franklin Angela is It, and Owd who plays his wife, Oh my gosh, I mean like, and these kids who are for a while, I really thought maybe some of them will relate it because they look so much alike. It's just I, you know, I am best actor is I think probably down to Denzel and Casey, who are both very deserving, But I would love to

see Nigo. Morton's video continues to just get in there for movies like this, because I think the movie. You know, the problem is are people seeing the movie, but if you see the movie, it's it's kind of hard to not vote for him. Yeah. I know a lot of hfp A people saw it late and they all were like, wow, I liked this movie a lot, and then sure enough. Well that's the advantage it has is that you know, they got screeners out early. It came out early in

the year. I think that's why it helped do really well with seg Um. Yeah. I just, I just I think it's a fantastic movie. It's my turn, alright, go My number one movie is Independence Day Resurgence. Oh stop. I think this movie has something to say about the horror that's about to be inflicted on this planet based on what's happened in this selection. God god, I was like, I was pretty sure, but I'm glad I got you. Oh of course you hadn't done La La Land yet, Okay.

I mean, plain and simple, I responded to a story about people still daring to dream. I mean it's really as simple as that. Thematically speaking, Uh, it's you know, holding off pragmatism and stability, all of that stuff really resonates. And as we said when you were speaking about it, he is hugely talented, Damien, he is hugely con I mean it's like this, it's this expressionist musical, which is

really bold to just dive into something like that. Because Scorsese he didn't bother with New York, New York for a couple of years. You know, he got a lot of things under his belt. But to just come out with your second it is a second film, right, it might be a third guy in Aline on a Park Pass that was his Harvard thesis film. I don't know if it even got released, Harvard Thesis film. Interesting term. Yeah, he's I mean, he's just what can you say? What again?

What else can you say about this movie other than people that are like ganging up on it now when I don't know what this thing is? People people end up responding to a movie's award season footprint. They're not responding to the movie anymore. Suddenly, Argo is a piece of ship because it's gonna beat Lincoln, right, Like, I don't understand that I've been wanting to curse this whole time.

Sometimes it comes out of me. Sometimes it comes out and that just bothers me like people are responding to a response at that point, they're not really responding to the movie. And I appreciate the people that have very real criticisms of this movie, and I'll listen to them and hear them out. But this time of year, these

dog piles start to happen and it just drives me bersert. Yeah, of course it's a response to the the backlash, and then there's the backlash again, the backlash, and yeah, you just have to tune that all out, Like La La Land is where it is because people genuinely love it, and there was a movie. Oh I won't go down

that road. I was just gonna say, like, there's some movies that like I don't get and then I can't deny that I'm seeing other people have a genuine response to it, you know, So why people want to deny it? Like maybe it's the hip thing to do to hate on the thing that everyone loves. But you know, I well a lot of times things break down, like just this is a very different movie than say, Manchester by the Sea, but that's my number one and number two movies.

So look, I contain multitudes people. Chris is a very calm person. Did you actually see Independence A Resurgence? The worst movie I saw this year? Yes, I was profoundly disgusted, but that's a whole other things. Yeah, anyway, that's our top five so this week. So I think the by the average mean probably La La Land. Well, let's see you I had. We both had Moonlight and La La Land. Those were the two. So we both had Lion on our honorable mentions. That's right. And we both love Sausage Party.

I don't hate Sausage Party. There's some very funny stuff in it. This week I'm talking to Violet Davis speaking earlier offenses, who is just show stopping in the movie. So uh and and we get into a lot of interesting stuff. Suicide Squad talk about Soderbergh, a bunch of different things to stick around for that. Hey, pop, I ask you a question. How come youily never liked me like you? What law is there? Say? I got to like you? All right? Then? Don't you eat every day?

Answer me? When I talk to you? Don't you eat every day? As long as you're in my house? You put a sir on the end of it. When you talk to me, you eat every day? That got a roof over your head and got closed on your back. Why do you think that is because of you? Hell, I know it's because of me. But why do you think that is because you're like me? Like you? I go out of here every morning, I bust my butt

because I like you. You're about the biggest fool ever sult A man is supposed to take care of his family. You're living my house for your belly, with my food. Put you're behind on my bed. Because you're my son. It's my duty to take care of you. I owe a responsibility to you. I ain't got to like you now. I don't give you everything I got to give you. I give you your life. Me and your mama worked that out between us, unlike in your black ass wasn't

part of the bargain. Now, don't you go through life in about whether somebody like you or not. You best be making sure that they're doing right by you. You understand what I'm saying. Everything that boy do he do for you. It's not easy for me to admit that I've been standing in the safe place for eighteen years. I haven't den in with you. I get eighteen years of my life to stand in the Saint w Is you Welcome back everyone. I'm here with the lovely Viola Davis,

star of Denzel Washington's Fences. Thank you for coming in. I appreciate it. Thank you, I should say, Star of August Wilson's Fences by way of Denzel Washington. Right. UM, I want to start, if you'll permit me, by flirting with you just briefly. I find your eyes to be very stunning, and I've thought that for a long time. I think that the way you convey emotion and hide emotion and betray emotion. I guess what I'm saying is I think your eyes have been great tools for you

as an actress. And uh, I always wanted to say that to you. Thank you well, I accepted and I appreciate it. I want to start by talking about something called trust, which keeps popping up with this film. I've noticed you guys talk about that a lot, and and how Denzel asked you guys to trust him when it came to this project. And I want to talk about

the value of that as an actress. Uh. What why is it so valuable on a project like Fences, where you are, you know, dealing with emotionally volatile material and you go to some really intense places. Why is it so important on a film like this, Well, it's everything that you just mentioned is going to those intense places and having four page monologues and that takes you to

places that are extraordinarily vulnerable. That, Um, it's the trusting yourself to to be able to go there and trusting your work, but it's also trusting the director is going to have your best interests at heart. A lot of times you have to rectors who are more interested in the shot. They're more interested in just other aspects of the film other than your performance, and you don't know

what they're seeing. You know, when they're at video village and they're looking at playback, you want to trust that what they're looking at is something that at the end of the day you're gonna be proud of and you're gonna believe. Um. And the thing about Denzel and I think it is because he is a great actor. He knows the words that are going to unlock the thing that's holding you back, and then he knows when to

step away and to let you fly. A lot of people just don't know that because they just they don't even know acting as a process and they're directing you. He understood that, and that's where the trust comes in, is knowing what to say no one, when to say it, knowing when to step back, knowing when not to have you drive your performance into the wall. Um. Because he has such a a truth gauge, he knows when whatever you're doing is bull crap um, and he respects August's words. Um,

I'm gonna get out of the way. Yeah. Well, you mentioned truth there, and there's an interesting point I wanted to talk about, which is, uh, you know, wrangling with this material on the stage versus wrangling with it on a film. Denzel's come at this question by saying that you know truth is truth and the camera will catch you lying, which is very wise. But still, do you find yourself processing it at all differently in the two different environments, and and how you kind of absorb it

and then reflect it back out as performance. Is any of that differ? Well, it is different because because you always have to be aware that you're not doing it in an audience of twelve people. So it's not even about the level of your voice. It's about rejecting emotion that you don't. You don't have to project it as hard. But at the same time, you know, it's a really hard question. People are asking me that constantly because you always have to be grounded in truth, even on stage.

It just has to be you gotta believe you're coming from a place of truthfulness, that you're talking, that you're listening, um, that you're engaged. Listen August wrote a four four page monologue. One of the monologues is eleven page. Is actually one of Troyes. It's got to go on for eleven pages. So when that's happening, that's indicative of something emotionally emotional happening. And whatever emotionally is happening with a four page monologue

or eleven page monologue is not understated. It's you know, sometimes with film, I think people just feel like you've gotta be understated, you've gotta be small. And so then you go to movies and you see people actually acting small. They're not really acting the moment, they were just acting small, um. Whereas there's a lot of speeches and a lot of moments not speeches, but but scenes in this movie where

it just can't be small. That whatever is happening is highly traumatic that it's not about vanity, it's not about holding back. It's about the pain that comes from the surprises of life that make you feel like you are going to die and you are fighting for your life. The steaks are really, really high, and in those moments, you can't think about being small. You've got to think

about playing the truth of the scene. You gotta think about being that feral dog that all of a sudden is backed into the corner by a dog catcher who wants to euthanize them. And how are they going to act? They're gonna claw, Oh, they're gonna fight back, They're gonna fight for their lives. It's that kind those kind of

moments that you have to really step up to. And um, I think that And the reason why I'm mentioning that is I think that on the stage you really have to go for it, and on screen you gotta go for it. Well, you have different faculties to call on too,

I guess. I mean, like I mentioned your eyes, you know that becomes a different tool to you when the camera's right here and how you kind of convey not that you're like telling your eyes to act well, you know what I mean, like how the eyes convey the emotion, uh and translate things that it becomes a unique tool for you versus on the stage where the guy in the back row can see your eyes, but the same things may be happening, they just can't see it. It's alchemical,

do you know? Absolutely? Um? You started, uh, I believe you're you know, your early stage career, you worked on a number of August work and but since this is the one that limbs so large, you know, so where you just really eager to do that one eventually? Is that a part that you always just wanted to sink into. I want to sink into any part that's great. Yeah,

I mean yeah, that was one of them. I personally loved all the August Wilson roles that I've gotten Tanyaan King headily the second you know, Vera and seven Guitars, Maddie and Joe Turners coming gone. I thought that they were all great, and um, yeah, I'm always looking for a great narrative. The thing that I love about Rose is her journey is complete. It is a complete journey.

When you meet her, she's in the background, you know, probably not knowing that she just is filling that role in the background, but someone who is just trying to make her life work, just trying to keep her family together. That's where the center of her life exists. That her purpose, that is how she matters. That's how you introduced to her.

And then this traumatic thing happens, and you see her pain, You see her go through her pain, you see it, you see her articulated perfectly, and then the and and in the end you see how she redeems it, and you ultimately see forgiveness and accountability. That to me is a complete journey. Um, and any actor wants that, Any actor wants that. Now, being such a student of his work, I'm curious what you think of how he wrote women.

And you know, certainly specifically as it pertains defenses, but just in general, how well do you think Augus Wilson got into the mindset of women in the parts that he wrote beautifully? And it's so funny because so many of his plays are male driven, far more male characters than female characters. But when the female character did step into the narrative, she stepped in, she stepped in with great insight. Um. What I love about August is none of his women for me feel like they're just a device.

They all have their own voice. I mean with Tanya, you just all in King Headley the second you understood what it meant for a woman in the eighties. That was a cycle in the eighties to bring a child into the world. Um living in poverty, living in low income housing, bringing a child into the world knowing that she's probably going to bury them by the age of seventeen. Um you understood that he for me, he captures their essence.

He always said that he was I think writing I want to say, seven guitars, And as he was writing it, all of a sudden a woman stepped in and he was surprised. He was writing I guess wherever he writes in his room in Seattle, or and a woman stepped into the narrative and he was like, wait a minute, who is this? And the first thing she said was hey, and he was like hey, and she said I have

something to say and he said okay. And I feel like that's where it always starts with an artist, is being open enough to allow another human being into a narrative. And when they come in there, you they absolutely demand their space. And if you're an artist, you want to give them a voice. And he had that need to give his women a voice. And I think I I think he did it beautifully. We were talking about Denzel and and uh, how he knew exactly what to say

to unlock things. I'm curious if if he has always had that as a filmmaker, because you go back to his directorial debut on Antoine Fisher, and he's got another film under his belt in the meantime and then now Fences. Uh, how has he changed in your estimation as a filmmaker and grown as as as a director since that time. Um? People ask me that all the time. I maybe because I'm a friend and a fan Denzel. I always thought he was great. I did. I always because he's a

great actor. He knows the process of how to unlock UM. I felt that with him and Derek Luke and Antoine Fisher. Um, it's like that moment that he has in Glory where he's just uh, he's just standing in he rips his shirt off and he spits, and then you see the scars on his back, so you see that he's a rebellious slave and then he's being bitten in that and he's being beaten, and in that in that moment, he's choosing to be strong, to be rebellious, but to also

be vulnerable. Anyone who can make a bold choice like that as an actor has a different head and has a different vision of truth that that doesn't fit stereotypes. Um, he knows how to come in and question why are you doing that? Are you doing it just because you feel like you need to be doing it? Because I don't believe it. What if I took you a step further and questioned you and a little bit to do

something else that is probably more rooted in truth. It's a kind of truth that nobody wants to admit, nobody wants to see. But I'm gonna give you that one word that's gonna push you to do something different. What if you did A instead of B and then all of a sudden, you see that actor going in a direction that they didn't expect, and ultimately the audiences and

and and it's unexpected for them. I mean, listen, in the last scene in Fences, which I never got on the stage, I was doing the scene when we were rehearsing in Pittsburgh for the film, and he said, I want you to walk up to Cory and after he says he's not going to his father's funeral, I want you to slap him? Do you tell Do you tell him that? Ye? Okay? I said, really, he said, I want you to slap the piss out of him, and

I was like, uh, okay. But then that was the start unlocking the scene for me in a way that was bold um and and in a way that I would not have chosen to do. Right. Well, he's amazing in the film as well. I mean, I think it might be his best work. And the just the work overall is is incendiary. I mean I I never saw

the play. I read it some time ago, but you know, as great as the words are, seeing it on the page and then seeing an actor really tear into them, and then as a new father myself, this year added a whole thank you, added a whole definition to the whole thing. That's really really impactful. So, speaking of two thousand two with Antoine Fisher, that was a great year for you. I wanted to venture out a little bit.

You had Far from Heaven and you had uh what was the other you had Solaris with with Soderberg and I want to talk about Soderberg actually, because you worked with him a couple of times traffic and out of Sight, and uh, you know, since you worked with him so early in your film career, I'm curious what you learned from Steven Soderberg that you've kind of applied throughout your career, besides the fact that he's the most relaxed filmmaker I've ever met in my life. To the point where you

think something's wrong with him, I'm serious. There was one point where I just wanted to shake him just to see how he would react. But I don't think it would have done anything. But um, I think that's the one thing that I have learned from him is when you work with Steven, it's easy. That's what it is. It's it's very easy. It's a it's it's so relaxed that what it forces you to do is to not put anything on your acting, to just come in and

say the line. And you know, for an actor, you all actors always want to be seen, even if they have two lines in the back, they always feel like the scene is about them. You know, It's like, you know, someone else may have have all the lines, but I'm coming in delivering the pizza, about the pizza delivery so um. With him, everything is still and easy, and I believe that's a reflection of him. That's a probably reflected It's probably a better question for him of how he wants

to see the world, of how he sees people. But I remember with out of Sight, I could never get a role in film. It just was not happening for me in film. And finally I got the audition for out of Sight and I was like, Okay, whatever, Steven Soderbergh, whatever. And I remember I had two lines for the audition. I think it was to two or three. That's it. And I said, I'm just going to say him that's it, because I'm at this point, I'm pissed that no one's

hiring me. And I went to my agent's office in New York, Jay Michael Bloom, I said the lines and then I left. I was like, really crappy audition. When I found out I got the role, I was in Shock, playing Don Cheatle's girlfriend, and I remember asking Stephen So, I said, what was it that made you hire me? He said, it was a combination of my stillness and my simplicity, along with my wild hair that I had that he he saw it as a huge contradiction that

made him lean in. It was interesting. The contrast of this kind of simple, straightforward woman with wild hair made him want to know more. I remember, back in the day I did my own hair. I used to braid it into my hair. I used to buy hair from this hair shop here in California. When I lived in New York. I would get at ups to my apartment in New York and I would braid so much hair into my head. I looked like Sly from Sly and the Family Stone back in the day. Um, he loved it.

He thought it was interesting. So I think that's kind of reflection of him, that he's always looking for someone that just wakes him up. Yeah, it sounds like he's looking for something real. Um, you mentioned that time in your life. What was that a rough time for you emotionally? Since you were having trouble finding the work you wanted or what was going on there? Think, Well, I can't say it was. If I said it was a rough

time emotionally, I would be lying just to get a story. Um, it was frustrating for me because I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't figure out what I was doing to not get the job. I would always get really really really close. It was always down to me and the actress, and me and two other actresses and um. And in the midst of trying to figure it out, I didn't know if I should change myself in a way. And I didn't want it to implode and make me feel like

I'm all wrong, my look is all wrong. I wanted to remain who I was. I wanted to retain my voice. I wanted to work, and it just wasn't happening. Just wasn't You never had to sacrifice that philosophy at all, did you, or did you? I don't think that. I don't think that, certainly not now, because you live by that and you know, just your speech recently at the Critics Choice Awards, and you know very clear that that's what you live by. But you don't think you ever

had to. I don't think that I have now. The people may have a different opinion about that, but I I've always felt like I did the best I could with what I was given, with the material that was given to me, with the characters that was given to me. Listening to help I could not approach a Bileen like she was a size too runway model. Um. She has described in a very specific way even in the book. So I had to give myself over to that. That's my job as an actor is to give myself over

to the given circumstances of the character. So I've always felt like I was true to whatever I was given. Um, I've always felt that. I I don't feel like ever cow towd um. You know I don't. And how about Michael Mann. I'm always curious about actress who worked with Michael Man because he's so exacting and he you know, comes with such a fleshed out thing for you that, uh, it's fascinating. And you worked with him on Black Cats. So I'd love to talk about Michael and working with him. Um.

Working with Michael was tough. It was in a good way in a bad way, and either both both in the sense. The good art was is his level of research, his level of preciseness is great because that's what you want as an actor. You don't ever want to just walk in and do your own thing and it's not based in any sort of truth. Um. So that was great. The other part that was not so much. Great is just feeling the restrictions of that for me anyway. UM, some actors are really do well with that. UM, I

don't know if I was so successful with it. Um, you feel you need to play a little more. I feel like I need to put my stamp on it. That's how I feel. I feel like if you tell me anything, um about who someone should be based on their profession and based on the truth of what that profession is, I can tell you something about that person that absolutely belies all of that, that is absolutely antithetical towards all of that. You know, I can show you

a cancer patient who's actually obese. I can show you a prostitute that actually does not wear a mini skirt and fish net stockings but no makeup, bad skin, dirty jeans, and some sneakers. UM that I wanted to put my own mark on it. That that because I feel that's what wakes people up. Because you talk about truth, that is truth. The truth is no one can be placed

in a box. There are times when people can. There are there are examples of that, but there are about fifty million examples of that that can absolutely go against any stereotype that exists. Yeah, it's very indicative of how he works. I mean, I think he starts with what a person does for a living, dictates who that person is, and and that tends to uh yeah, like really guide his hand. But I can see how that could be troublesome for an actor who wants to add other dimensions

that maybe that doesn't allow. I mean the beauty of what he does though, shooting in Hong Kong and Kowloon in places, I think he really captures the essence of his locations beautifully. I mean really beautifully this. I mean you could almost smell it, you could taste it. It's just palpable um. And I don't know how he does that, but he does it beautifully, I think. Um. But as far as mean as I was running to catch up

and to keep up, I hear you. I want to talk a little bit about Suicide Squad because obviously completely different film than Fences this year that you were in, and and it's you dipping your toe into the kind of big I P cinematic universe realm that very much dictates a lot of this business lately as an actor.

How did you like being a part of a project like that, I mean, I and this is no disrespect to the artists involved with these films, but you can be such a cog and a wheel of such massive machinery that I imagine you feel like maybe you can't put your stamp on certain things. But I don't want to speak for you. How how how did that experience come off for you? I loved it, and I think that I loved it because I didn't think that deeply about it. I just thought it was just fun. Ah

what was fun to me about Amanda Waller? And I think it's just Amanda Waller. I think if I played any other character in probably superhero Land, I probably would feel differently. But Amanda Waller, who is heavy pearls afro and has no superhuman strength but absolutely us puts fear in the heart of all of these villains that she's in charge of, appeals to me greatly. It really does. I love it. I love that she was from the Cabrini Green projects. There's something about her for me that

that was familiar. You could bring maybe some of your absolutely that I could work I was working out the bad girl, but I was working out the bad girl, but from a space that for me is based somewhat in the read in reality. That's what I liked about it. I liked playing with that power. It's something so often not given to women. We don't. We don't give ourselves permission. No one else gives us permission to feel that kind of unapologetic badassery. We just don't. We're always apologizing for it,

always feeling like it. Listen, people always asking me and how to get away with murder? You know, do you have a problem playing a character that's unlikable? And I'm thinking, why don't people have to like me? Why does it have to be a goal of being warm and fuzzy? And do you ask James did you ask James Gandalfinie that question for Anthony Hopkins or any character in the Martin Scorsese movie or actor in the Martin Scorsese movie.

So that need, as soon as you pick up a role or a script define what's likable and warm and fuzzy is somehow can be a misstep on our part. So it's great to have a character where it becomes a great exercise on being on apologetically bad. I can tell you that funs like well, speaking of badastery Uh, that's a nice segue to my final question here. I want to talk about your Harriet Tubman project. Um. First of all, I'm a little behind on the news cycle.

Have you got a director for that project yet? No zeroing in or you don't have to give me your short list, But I'm curious what kind of a director you think that material needs? Well, right now, right now, we're we need a script, right now, we need a script because it's it's really, Um, the narrative really is about the lab the later part of her years, when she's older, when she is part of the Cumby River Raid. Yeah. I was reading about that recently. That sounds so awesome.

A great way to meet her. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean it's towards the end of her kind of the underground railroad. Um. The thing about Harriet Tubman is that it is it's like being Sherlock Holmes finding out who she is. You can imagine during that time in the eighteen hundreds that you weren't so forthcoming with who you were. She was a spy after all, and she was operating in the height of slavery and then Jim Crow laws.

It wasn't exactly a time where you can live your authentic life and just be who you are and be candid and open. So finding out what is her center and what is her motivation and who she is in private, not just what she did that was so heroic, but who she was. You know, It's like I always tell writers. I mean, I'm telling writers now, I want you to

write Harriet. I just want you to write her. I don't want you to write the hero I think that's just a byproduct of her driving need to make a difference. But who she is at the end of the day has gotta be something else. That's been the biggest issue with me, and it needs a director who's not going to shrink from all of that. And the what I mean by that is towards a later part of her years, she actually met her husband and she was with him

until he died, Nelson Davis. So when she was forty two, this woman that you see in pictures, you know, with the scarf on her head, you know, you know, with her back kind of humped over, you know, found love, found someone who fell in love with her. So is sexualized not sexy. Sexualized is someone who obviously was lonely, is someone who could could not have been mad at God even though she had a just passionate belief in him. Um. I want someone who's able to explore the heroic in

the mess. That's the only way for me I can do it. That's the only way I can do it. I don't know how to play heroic. I don't know how to play that. I know how to play a person whose need is to matter, I could do that, But I don't know how to play someone who's slaying dragons all the time and never has a weak moment, like an icon. Try to play an icon. So why biopics are difficult Because nobody wants to be disrespectful to them, so no one wants them to be seen as bad

or messy, when in fact we all are. And Um, for me, that's what makes someone even more more heroic that in the midst of all of that stuff that can be shameful, that can be putrid, that can we could be struggling with, we can sift through it and somehow live a life bigger than ourselves. That's truly interesting to me. But other than that, I don't really want to do a paint by numbers biopics. So finding the director and finding the writer has been quite a task.

I don't know. Maybe Mr Soderbergh get back together. Yeah, maybe cut him in a good moment. Martini, Well, I look forward to that when you finally get it together. It's an amazing sounding project and uh again, everybody go check out Fences. It's phenomenal film, one of the year's best, and she gets one of the best performances Bylla Davis. Thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. Remember to subscribe and check back next week when I'll be talking to Hidden Figure star Kevin Costner. You've been listening to playback at Variety three