Ep04 - Jeff Nichols / "Loving"

I do this week. And we're going to talk about something specific this week. Actually, we're gonna talk about the lead oscar races. Uh. First up, let's talk about the ladies, because lead actresses insane. Yeah, it's insane. It's not just amazing performances, it's huge, huge stars, previous nominees, previous winners. It's crazy. Yeah. Well at the top, I think it's fair to Well, first of all, I won last week law law Land, you did, yes, the Victor at Toronto

Moon I didn't even place. And it's not three that's shocked. Although I am not surprised. I mean, obviously I've heard amazing things about Lyon and I saw Queen of Cotway on Saturday night with a sag crowd and the enthusiasm for it, I mean they were rhapsodic, So I actually was not surprised that that's one of those delightful kind

of movies. It really is. It's really well done. Yeah, it's And having said that Lupie in the Ago will not be in the actress race because the race is insane, yeah, exactly. And and regarding lail and Emma Stone won the Venice Prize for Best Actress, so she is everything for I think most of us at the top of the list right there, whether there is Natalie Portman, which we talked about Jackie last week, I think those are two locks. Yeah, yeah,

I mean everyone else. It's just there's so many great performances. Amy Adams turns in two fantastic performances and movies this year. Um, Ruthnega is fantastic, Isabelle who pair And then there's the what people we haven't seen in Nett Benning to Roggi p Henson, Viola Davis, Marian Cotillard, and you haven't mentioned perennial favorite Meryl Street, which is completely I mean, she's probably good to go yeah, unless you know this category is just squeezes someone like her out, which it could.

I worry that it could squeeze someone like Ruth out because it's a quiet performance. It's not a big performance like some of these, just like her co star Joel Edgerton, they're quiet performances and sometimes that can be hard to break through. But she's such a discovery this year, truly, she truly is. She's you know, and preacher as well on TV doing something completely different. I mean, there is always the possibility they haven't been seen yet that Mariankatillard, Viola,

Davis Roggi, b Henson and Net Benning aren't good. I would find that hard to believe. But those are four people that you know that they're already practically guaranteed a slots, and the Net in particular is one of those that consistently brought up is overdue, Yeah, I mean the only person who is more overdue than a Net Benning is Amy Adams. Now we've talked about this before. You say that because of the number of nominations, Amy has five and I believe has four. She's been around for for

far longer. I think there's an argument there, but they're both they're both going to get their oscar one day, I think, is um. And you know, we'll see how good twentieth Century Women is. That's going to play at the New York Film Festival, so we will know soon. But until then, I am only saying that only two sure things are amastone and Natalie apartment. There you go. But did we talk about Viola? Did you bring her up there? I did bring her up. Here's the thing

about Viola Davis, I am hearing. I don't know if this is true or not. She supporting that. I feel confident now that it's going to stay lead. I'll just say that, you know the are you familiar with the play itself? I am, And I know they've also expanded the role a little bit for her. She won the lead. Tony, the actress that played it previously won it in the future category. So you know, you can see that the argument could go either way. And the argument for supporting

is very clear based on our conversation here. It's a tight category in lead. But I think at the end of the day, Um, I'm expecting that to stay in lead. And why is that? Or do you not want to say I don't want to say I just we'll see, we'll see. But I just feel pretty good right now that the logic on top of just you know, chatter,

that lead makes the most sense to me. She's a friend runner in the lead category without anyone having seen the performance, So maybe she shouldn't move, you know, I'm just as far as optics are concerned, I think it would be a shame too quote unquote demote the the woman of color out of this race to into the supporting category. Um, you know, if it made room for Ruth then that's one thing. If it made room for

Geogi p Henson, that's one thing. But if you know, if it's the one woman of color that had a shot at a lead nomination and she was pushed to supporting, I think it would kind of be a shame. But I mean people do it all the time. I mean, let's be honest, Alicia Vickender one last year performance that they don't have the optics of, you know, diversity, you know, flocking around it. So if the performance is as good as I'm hearing, and it probably is because she's Viola Davis,

I think she'll be fine in either category. And I've heard that Denzel is fantastic as well. Opposite her, he is softer. Yes, the story of my life. We need men. It's it's uncharacteristically thin over there. I just there is no one who is a sure thing at this point. There's a lot of you know, good, case Affleck feels strong, but it's it's in a in a darker also a very subtle performance. It's very subtle performance. Yes. Also, I don't know if Casey Affleck is going to play the

Oscars game well, so to speak. I don't think he would. I mean, he'll probably do the usual regular stuff, but like that above and beyond territory that you need sometimes if you're on the fringe. I don't see him wanting to do that. I mean, I think Casey Affleck and probably Ryan Goslin are and maybe even Tom Hanks, which is crazy to me because I liked Solly. Tom Hanks

as excellent as always. The man could not get nominated for Captain Phillips, which was one of the best performances I've seen in the last ten years, But he might get in this year for solely because it is a really weak categor I was going to make that specific point and he's excellent. I mean he's Tom Hanks. He's very good. I mean he's it's It's also a quiet performance, by the way, because the performance is all about this guy who's very controlled, very kind of just like you know,

when he landed the plane. He was very controlled, very on top of it, very just I need to know he lands the plane. I do think though, that Tom Hanks's performance is pretty fantastic. He's one of those actors who does so much with his eyes without speaking, and he does get a couple great scenes in Sully that you know, could could be that clip moment. So I'm not saying that he would not deserve an Oscar nomination.

I think he's fantastic. It's just sort of indicative of of we don't have anything in this category yet, and by the way, that movie is making its best case for itself and people love it. I cannot tell you how many people who live across the country that like are regularly sending me texts asking if I've seen Sully and I think it's like the best movie of the year. The movie is landing if you will. Oh god, he

edited that out. I threw Matthew McConaughey in there. This is obviously a movie that we haven't seen yet, but he looks like he's having a lot of fun and gold. I loves movie, and you know, I think people wouldn't mind seeing him back on the circuit. Frankly. I mean, he was very much on the circuit for Dallas Buyers Club and and hard to to Miss and regarding that above and beyond stuff, you know, was doing everything and

it paid off. This movie comes in December, and we'll see if it's a contender otherwise, But just for his performance, he looks like he's having a blast. Yeah. I was really charmed by the trailer. Much like Michael Keaton. You know, he starting the two Best Picture winners of the last two years. Um, he's back in a lead role as Ray Croc, the founder of McDonald's, who was not a very nice person as it turns out. I was sort of shocked to learn just how much he screwed the

McDonald's brothers. I really did. I am very busy with The Bachelor. Okay, I have a lot of about things that really happened. Well, uh, we'll see about that movie. I don't know that that's going to be much of a player. But I don't know if the movie is, but I wouldn't under estimate Keaton. We'll see, we'll see. I love the man. I think he deserved a win for Birdman, and you know there's it's going to be that residual good will when he's back in the race.

Well that's what I thought. If he didn't win for Birdman, he'll win for Spotlight because of all that good will. And then they didn't even nominate him. Well that was tough though. It's like the two performances that have been seen. I am a big fan of Miles Teller and bleed for this. I think he's great. Actually think Aaron Eckhart is pretty close to a lock for supporting actor in that movie. Um, Miles, who knows? Uh? You know, Miles is you talked about playing the game? Like would he

play the game? You know? Per se? Would he? I did a lot with him for Whiplash when it was out, and he can be very try I mean, you know, Miles tight, Miles Teller. Um, he just he doesn't really have a filter in a way. I kind of admire that, and he can be very charming in front of audiences. And the performance is really great. Uh, well, people see the movie. I don't know, so it's a real crowd pleaser, I think, yeah, I agree. I how did it do

in Toronto? Did you see it there? No? I saw before Toronto, and so I don't really the crowd there because I was very curious how it was going to play a thought and tell you right, it's sort of got a little lost just because of the that first night it was Moonlight, Sully Casey Afflecks Tribute along with Manchester Bleed for This. It was like there was four or five things on top of each other that people and I think Bleed for This was the one that suffered.

Now I have not seen Haxa Ridge, but I'm hearing good things about Andrew Garfield is also appearing in Silence maybe this year. I think Silence is definitely coming out this year, but we'll see. I don't I don't know what's going on with the hold up on presenting materials and whatnot. But uh, you know, regarding Haxell, I do think he's He's very good in Haxel. I think that if Silence does come out, that his performance in hacks All could kind of just add to that it's like

the Michael Douglas Wall Street Fatal Attraction year. There you go. But it's like how at the same time, like maybe the category placement shakes out differently in Silence, Like if Liam Neeson is the lead of Silence, I think that's a game over. I am going to campaign Liam Neeson for his work in A monster Calls as the Tree. Okay, that's all you so? Um. Ryan Gosling's performance has been seen, has been liked, and yet I think those kinds of roles suffer. Yeah, it's it's a tough thing. Also not

able to campaign. He's shooting Blade Runner until at least November. Yeah, that's tough. But people love the movie, yeah, if they If they love it, it's kind of one of those things that depends on how how deep they fall in love with it. And if he kind of comes along for the ride. And I don't think he's It's not that I don't think he's great on his own, it's just those kind of performances in these kinds of movies can be a little thankless. Yeah, and Emma Stone just

owns the movie so much. It well, it kind of is her story. Yeah, I mean it's it's presented in advertisements as sort of both their stories, but I do sort of feel it it tips in her favor. I think Nate Parker deserves to be in this race. I think he's amazing in Birth of a Nation. I think his I would rather see him nominated as actor than director, to be honest, and I think his direction is very good. But I was really really taken by his performance. I've

been a fan of his for a long time. As far as Beyond the Lights, he was great in that. He was great an arbitrage and way back in great debaters when everyone first discovered him. But I do think that them getting not that it was some master stroke. But I do think that this uh controversy happening when it did gives it time to recover. It either will

or it won't. I mean, look, if the movie comes out and it just bombs at the box office and the audience is rejected or Boycott's become the story, how do you think he's going to do with the box office. I don't know. I really have no idea. I'm never good with guessing box office. But I don't think that it's going to be a movie that a lot of people are interested in seeing. I'm terrible at guessing box office. Um witnessed Blair Witch this weekend. I didn't do I

don't ten million. I think, at the most supposed to do better than that. It supposed to like double that, And let's be frank. I mean, there have been some pretty lousy horror films that come out and do triple that. This was actually supposed to be a good movie with a built in audience. And you know, I mean, I guess ten million isn't bad. It was a small budget, but I know it's not what they're expecting, right. We

also don't know about Brad pitt An allied. Yeah, I think it could be a smaller performance and people expect I think Marion might be the story that I'm hearing Brad might actually be supporting. But after the events of this week, gosh, the tabloid press are going to have a field day with all of that. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know how much campaigning he'll want to do when his divorce is being played out in the public. We talked about a few weeks ago. Love it, love it.

I think he's worth considering. I absolutely well, you know, he and Joel Edgerton have Well, actually, I take that back, Vigo Mortonson's performance is a little flash here. Joel Edgerton, you know, is constantly doing such wonderful, subtle work, like could he finally be recognized this year for Loving? For such a quiet performance? That's the thing is, it's that

quiet performance situation. Again. I think he's great in it, and I think he's been putting out work, great work for a number of years and he's been right there. You know. Last year with Black Masse he was fantastic, I thought, and the movie the movie just ran out of steam. So you know, I don't know. Um, we're the interview portion later here, I'm talking to Jeff Nichols about all of that, the director of Loving. Um. It's

strange too, because the supporting mail category seems so much stronger. Yeah, I mean, just off the top of my head, you have me herschel a Lean Moonlight. I mentioned Aaron Eckhart in Bleed for This, and um, who is the person I'm just blinking, Liam Neeson if he's supporting, by the way, not just making your owing up. Michael Shannon, Michael Turnal Animals. Yeah, and uh, we'll just have to see how some of these turn out. I've got just recorded Levin Gordon Levitt

on here too, but I don't know. I wouldn't rule him out. Yeah, it's it's We talked about it briefly last week, but you know, the accident didn't bother me after a while, which was surprising. Do you have Jake Jillenov for nocturnal animals that list? No, I do not. I do not, but I love Jake. I have Ethan Hawk from Born to Be Blue on this list. Sure he was great, so it was done. Chee in miles ahead. They're both great. I mean there are like great performance.

People want to dig back the stuff. There's stuff to look at. That's the question what they want to do. But we know how much they hate to dig back. They have short memories. All right, we'll leave it at that. Please stick around. I'll be talking to Jeff Nichols right after this. Walm up. I'm as wife. That's no good here. Richard Perry Lovey in a white person, and Mildred Jeter, being a colored person, did unlawfully cohabitate as man and wife.

I believe this is about all that could go all the way to the Supreme Court the State of Virginia will argue that it is unfair to bring the children of mixed race into the world. Is there anything you'd like me to say to the Supreme Court Justices of the United States? Yeah, Jorge, I love my wife. Welcome back everyone. I'm here with the writer and director of Loving, Jeff Nichols. How you doing, Jeff, I'm great. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man, thanks for being on here. It's funny.

I tend to always, obviously do plenty of research and learn where where the talent I'm interviewing is coming from. But I know your background pretty well. I went to the same film school together, and I wanted to start there. You know, your time at North Carolina School of the Arts. Uh, there's interesting voices coming out of that school, an interesting group of people, with Chad Hartigan and Aaron Katz and

obviously David Green and stuff. Craig Zobel, what do you think about the uh, the kind of voice that is emanated from that school. Well, I think it's probably evolving.

I mean, um, I haven't been there in a while, but when we were there, I think, you know, I guess I got there and they only graduated one class by my first year, so so they still didn't really know what they were doing, which was great because they just gave us film cameras and um allowed us to start making mistakes, which is rare I think in the film school setting. UM. I know the school's kind of evolved since then, but I think a big part of

it is that it's in North Carolina, you know. I know that was a huge part for me and uh and probably for day of it, and probably for Jody Hill too, and and maybe even Craig. But we could walk out the door and be confronted with an environment that was similar to what you know, we grew up around, and that's a pretty big deal. I think back now, like had I gone to New York or or USC or something one of these kind of you know, premier places,

I don't know what I would have done. Um, I don't know what kind of storyteller I would have become. And I'm really glad, you know, I had access to to the countryside in the South. Something I've noticed about a lot of the guys that come out of there too, is they've maintained that sort of tight knit group of people they work with. Sure well, I mean, you know, all ships rise kind of an idea. Um. I think David Green was the first one to kind of bust

down the door for us. And and a big part of I think becoming a filmmaker is is believing that it's actually possible it us for me, at least because I grew up in Arkansas completely you know, removed from any real connection to the industry. And when David made George Washington, it was like, oh, man, like David's one of us. Um as unique as David is, he felt like one, it was kind of somebody from our gang

making it. But also beyond that then, I mean, David's the one that sent me to Brian Kavanaugh Jones at c A, that got my finishing funds for Shotgun Stories, you know. Um, David's the one that wrote Berlin um a letter that I think influenced them watching Shotgun Stories so that it got into that festival and had a launching pad. Those are two very probably minor things for David to do in in his day and in his life,

but they had a tremendous impact on me. So you can't and I know for a fact that you know he influenced Jodi and Danny McBride and everybody else. So like there is this kind of you know, um, mental unity that happens, but there's also a very practical side of it of just like hey, man, make a phone call for me. Yeah. Absolutely, Well you mentioned Berlin there. You have two films this year, one of which started at Berlin this year, right right, and Loving sold in

Berlin off of footage. Yeah, Berlin was good to us. Yeah, it was really good to us. You know, two completely different movies, Midnight and Uh and Loving. You have a sci fi film and you've got a historical drama. Uh that variety keeping things you know, mixed up? Is that important to you? Yeah, it kind of is. You know. Um, I think it's really easy to get pigeonholed in this business.

And I, UM, I really liked the idea of those two films coming out in relative time and space of one another, you know, um, even though technically Midnight Special could have been released and maybe should have been released the year before. Um, it's uh, it makes me happy because I can find the personal connection stach these films. I can find the personal motivations for each of these films. But just on the kind of you know, just bald face of it. Towards the industry, It's like, wow, well, okay,

he's at least not repeating himself. Um, even though I think there are a lot of similarities in all these things that I've made. UM, Yeah, that that feels important to me. But also I'm five films in now, and for the first time in my career, I don't know what's next and I and I feel though a freedom in terms of the choices I have access to simply because no one film is going to totally define me anymore. I didn't feel that way with Shotgun Stories and Take

Shelter and what even Midnight Special. To degree, it was like, this is how people are going to judge me. Now, that's a little bit naive because in this business you're kind of always judged by the last thing that you did. Regarding Midnight Special, your experience with a big studio in the movie. We talked about this earlier in the year, but just want to hear some more about it now.

You know, diff vibe obviously than the other projects you've been on, and and i'd I'd love to hear just with a studio like that that is kind of in the muck of franchise movies and these kind of big temp poles and trying to build these cinematic universes. To to take time for a project like that, I thought was extraordinary. How did you find it? Well, you know,

Warner Brothers was really really good to me. Um, But that was also a very specific situation, and I was there kind of during a bit of a sea change for that studio. UM. You know, Jeff Robinov was the one that that green let that film, um, and then he left the studio and uh and Greg Selverman you know, took over. So I was there in a transitional period. UM. But even despite that, UM, you know, they they didn't

they didn't mess with me too much. UM. I think I really, you know, from my perspective, I just really wanted them to like the film, because you want the people that are paying the money for your film and the and the money to release it and picking the distribution plan. You just want them to not just be financially invested, but you really wanted to like the thing you're doing. UM. You know, I definitely think, uh, you know, Robinov had a different point of view on it, um

than maybe Silverman. But um, but I can't say I was never you know, I was never forced to to alter what I wanted to do in any substantial way. Um, can I back up? I'm just curious, what do you mean by the difference of the point of view? Well, yeah, you know, I mean I think I think Robinov, from just the conversations I had had with him, I think he saw it as a little bit potentially a bigger film, not in terms of cost, but in terms of accessibility

to the audience. I think by the time I was done with it, you know, um, they and you know, it's a big group over there, so I won't even say who, but they kind of saw it as a smaller film. You know. I heard a lot of times when they were talking about their release strategy, they were like, you know, don't this is a film you don't want to get caught speeding with, which, you know. The the result of that was, you know, it just kind of sat in five on five screens for a long time.

But and you can judge whether that was a good decision or a bad one, But I don't think it was any you know, scheme to h to make the film not succeed quite the opposite. Actually, I think they thought that was the way the best way to handle it. Yeah, and they don't do stuff like that, you know frequently there. I think I think sometimes studios get these movies, uh and and they're not really outfitted maybe the platform a

movie or or what have you. So there was a lot of talk, you know, um at the time about we're really excited we get to work on something like this, you know, because we don't work on movies of this scale a lot of times. And so you know, I think there was I think there was some excitement there from from from the people there, and like said, I, I really enjoyed them all. I really like them. Yeah. Well, Loving came to you through Martin Scorsese, right kind of kind of kind of he was kind of a friend

of the project. Um. That was the initial phone call that I received, UM, which you know, to the producer's credit, that was a good first phone call, you know, to throw my way, because who doesn't want to talk to Martin Scorsese. Um. But really it was Colin Firth and Jed Doherty and Nancy Berski who had made the documentary. UM, that were the the the first producers on it. You know, when when I came on board, I brought Sarah Green with me. It's my producing partner UM and Brian capital

Jones as an executive producer. But it was really Jed and Colin and Nancy that spearheaded UM the approach to me, and I have to give them a lot of credit to to be to be willing to to work within, you know, the structure that I dictate, UM. And it's not for everybody, you know, but it's like Sarah is gonna, you know, have a very heavy hand and producing it because she understands on a very you know, specific basis how I work day to day. Adam Stone is gonna

shoot it. Jack Keith is going to be the production designer. Julie Monroe is gonna edit back to what I was talking about about this tighten it. Oh yeah, you know it's it just makes sense to me though, you know, UM. I mean maybe there will be some point in my career where I look up and say, hey, I just want to, you know, um, blow this all up and have a different experience. But but movies are so hard to make. They're so complex and there's so many variables

at play. That I find as much confidence as you can get, you know, around the process, the better. Yeah, going right into it exactly. Um. But talk to me about that phone call with Scorsese. I mean that had to have been. Oh it was awesome, you know. Um. I was just pasting around in my back yard talking to him. And that means the fact that he had seen my films. You know, he'd seen Take Shelter and he'd seen Mud Um and he was, you know, mentioning scenes from them. And and I mean this is a

man who you know, shaped our our film knowledge. I had two DVDs my junior year. We had a DVD player in no cable connection. One was Fletched and one was good Fellas. And I watched those movies so much. And uh and you know, I just remember eating Ramen noodles and watching good Fellows and um and I just became a student of that film. And here this man is speaking about my films. It was a surreal moment, Like I was. I was on cloud nine for a

few days. Was that the version of Good Fellows where you had to flip the disc in the middle of it? Because that, yes, it was, remember it absolutely was. Yes, I forgot that she's she's freaking out at the girlfriend

ringing the doorbell. You remember having to flip uh. You know, the story of the Lovings obviously took place around Richmond or up in that are in that area, and you you filmed on locations up there, and I just want to hear I'm always curious about how an environment helps shape and dictate the film, usually for performers, but I'm curious as a director, what what did being up there

in those environments do for you in the process. Well, you know, in this industry especially, it's kind of like where the taxi centives, you know, and like, you know, well, we can shoot that anywhere, you know. I remember when we were discussing Mud and I was really kind of demanding that it be shot in Arkansas. They're like, well, you know, the Mississippi River runs through Louisiana, and You're like, yeah, it does, but it looks a hell of a lot different.

And um, you know, there was just no question that we would need to go to Virginia for this. But you know, I mean we went to college in North Carolina, and even the difference between North Carolina and Virginia's there's subtle differences, um, not just in landscape, but also accent and everything else. Um. This is just really important. But but especially for Loving because I mean that courthouse we shot in was the courthouse they were tried in and

convicted in. You know that that jail was the jail you know, um that they were in, not the interior but the exterior. Um. The field where he proposes to her is about three minutes from the house they lived in, the real house they lived in and hiding the whole time. And I think because Mildred Loving's character was so innately tied to nature into place to really to home and a big part of that family, but I think there was also a part of her that just she needed

the country, She needed the grass and the nature. UM. I very much identified with that. That that's a thread that kind of runs through all of my films. So I became very much attached to her point of view, um in that regard. And so we need to go to the place that that captivated her. And the funny thing is when we landed and we were in Virginia, I mean I was there before I started writing, doing research, and then when we were there in pre production, it's

kind of undeniable. I mean, it's just got to feel to it, Um that it makes sense that she would be willing to, you know, endure constant the constant threat of danger. It just in order to get her family back into the country. What did that do for you? Like you and Adam on visual ideas for you know, we just wanted to make it beautiful. I have to be honest, Um, which what does what does that mean?

But um, it was really important for us from a production standpoint to have enough time to execute these things, this being our fifth film, Like we know how it works. The question is was somebody going to give us enough time and resources to pull it off? You know, I'm very very specific on the page about how I want these things to unfold, um, and Adams very specific about you know, how he designs with Michael roy R gaffer

the lighting and everything else. And so we just need to be given the time to execute our ideas fully and Big Beach. Thank goodness, our financiers they had that confidence in us and that confidence in the project, and they gave us that time and they gave us those resources, and so you know, we really were able to say, you know, what for instance, this scene where he proposes to her in this field, that was going to be

the last shot of the movie as well. We knew that, Um, the days that we were scheduled to shoot those it was overcast. I mean we still could have shot in those days, and and in past films on past budget levels, we would have. But it was so important to us to reorganize that week, probably at a pretty good expense, um, to be able to put those two days on days that were just really beautiful. Um. That that's I would have.

That's how it affected us. It was the style of production and being allowed the the the room and the um and the ability to just just to get it right. Yeah, Joe Edgerton is uh unknown commodity now, but ruth Is is a little more of an unknown. Uh she was, she was three months ago. Blow up a bit now. But but tell me what you were looking for for these two roles. And I imagine chemistry was a big

part of that dynamic. Oddly enough, I didn't. I didn't sweat the chemistry too much, which I know sounds absurd, um, but you know, I write parts for people, all right, parts for Mike Shannon, I write, I wrote mud for Matthew McConaughey. You know, I'm real specific on the page about that. And in this instance, I was writing these parts for Richard and Mildred. I'd been studying this archival footage over and over and over and over in these photographs, so much so that I had them in my mind.

I had their voices in my mind. So when Ruth came in, she was the first person we ought issue. Francine Meisler are casting director's greatest casting director in the world. Ruth was the first person she brought in. I didn't know her work, I didn't know really much about her. She sat down and just started doing the scenes and

it was Mildred. It was until afterward that I started talking to her that she spoke in an Irish accent and I which was bizarre, you know, but um, it didn't matter because she'd already already proven that she was she was Mildred, and it was undeniable. You know. Whenever we would go talk to financiers or something and they asked who Ruth Mega was, we just showed him a quick time video of the audition and it was like, well,

she's Mildred. Take a look and then you know Joel. Um. You know, Joel wasn't a foregone conclusion either in terms of financing it. It was you know, there were several people that had had questions about that, and I just kept saying, look, he's he's he's Richard, He's he's gonna he's gonna do an amazing up in this part. You

just have to trust me. And again thanks to Big Beach and Peter Sarraf and Mark turtle Toob they did, you know, and they let us make this because you know, that's a pretty good sized budget, um for for those two people, you know, and for me and so um, so I have to give a lot of credit to them.

But you know, Joel, I'd been watching through midnight special handle of Texas Dialect, something I I'm pretty serious about, and and he just has that facility, has that gift, and I knew we had enough audio of the real Richard Loving that he would be able to do that same thing, you know, he would be able to just um absorb that characters. So that's what I was looking for. And then I guess you just know something about the nature of people, you know, Ruth, Ruth has this quality

that's very similar to Mildred. She she's just very soft spoken, but she also is a bit of a fire and you know, she has this inner strength that's kind of undeniable. And Joel, I mean it's partly because he's Australian, but everybody wants to be friends with Joel. He's just a likable guy. And uh, and sure enough you put those two together and you can tell they just liked each other, you know. Um, and I knew, I just never I

never worried about that part. You know. What's interesting right now is there's a lot of talk of films like this and Birth of a Nation and Hidden Figures coming later this year. Uh, diversity making its way to the forefront. Um. What's interesting to me about this movie is it's what's it strikes me as as more about a marriage equality situation. It becomes a movie about that. And was that thematic something that was mostly at the forefront for you or

kind of more in the background. I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Well, it was absolutely at the forefront. I mean I started writing this thing in two thousand twelve, and that's when the marriage equality issue was really starting to get fought out state by state. It was before Overfell, uh and the Supreme Court decision. UM. And I probably think all of us, you know, the producers included, we're looking at this as a direct you know, as a

direct link to that conversation. And and in that Supreme Court case meaning Overfell, I mean they sighted the Loving via Virginia several times. UM. So it wasn't just a you know, it wasn't just this kind of thematic connection. It was actually like a legal connection to the two things.

But what's so fascinating about the Loving story is, Um, now that you know marriage equality legally has been you know, taken care of, very similar to the way that in a racial marriages were legally handled by the Loving decision in sixty seven, doesn't mean that the the social framework is is taken care of. You know. That's when that's when that battle really begins. Is this acceptance now of of of what is legal? Um. So we knew that

that that issue would always resonate. It's not like, oh, well the Supreme Court fixed this now, there's no need to tell this. UM. What's fascinating though, is now all of this um, the idea of of racism in this country is so out front as it should be. It's such an aggressive conversation as it should be. Um that the Loving Story applies to that as well. Um. And their story hasn't changed, but the social dynamic has changed.

I think even you know the country, the state of the country and May when we play this thing and can the tenor of the conversation was one thing, and now here it is September. We play the same movie again, but the tenor has changed, you know, the shootings in said Dallas and Baton Rouge. Um. The conversation is constantly evolving. And what's so important about that, and what's so important about the Loving Story and in reference to it, is the Lovings just showed the humanity at the center of

a very complex, difficult conversation. And we are having and we need to be having complex difficult conversations about race in this country and about equality in general. And the Lovings remain this, this constant example of humanity because they they didn't want to be political figures, they weren't looking

for this, and they just truly loved each other. And I think when you get to really divisive topics in our society, if we can if we can force people to just stop and think about the humans at the center of them, we have a chance of actually having a rational conversation, which is certainly why you're you were drawn to stripping away as much as you have in this film and making it very much a quiet story

of people who fell in love. And there were ramifications for that because I believe that's what they were like. You know. Um, that wasn't just a calculation on my part in terms of, oh, this is the best way to represent them. When you look at this archival footage, they were such quiet people and they're just specific facts and and and things that come out of their mouths that that you you know, you know, they just wished

people had left them alone. Um, so you know that the tenor of the film needs to be needs to reflect you know, that part of their personalities. Now, you said you are at the point now for the first time where you don't know what's next. But I feel like that allows me to ask you what would you like to be next? Do you have any idea that is there some area you want to push into that you haven't yet is there? Because it seems like if you don't know what's next then you have the freedom

to maybe figure that out. I'll answer two ways first and kind of a bigger kind of macrob idea way, and then I'll talk a little a bit more specifically. What I really want to do is make a film that enters the zeitgeist. You know, I want to make a film that makes an impression on a lot of people. Uh, And there are a lot of ways to do that. That doesn't necessarily mean making a hundred million dollar film, you know, loving might do it, in fact, um, I hope it does. But but as a kind of end

all goal, that's something that interests me. You know, like Richard Linklater does it a lot. Well, he's done it twice with Days and like remember when Days and Confused came out. I mean that that was and it's not just about people quoting it on the street, but kind of it is you know, that means that it has permeated our society. It absolutely is. And it's not something you can calculate. It's not something you can even set

out to do. But that to me would be would be real success, you know, and there are a lot of rewards that come along with that, you know. But um, but to me that that means you've made a film that has really it's really gotten to people. Um So that is kind of a big macro goal is one thing. But since you can't really plan an assault on the psychist, you have to just you have to just think about the specifics. And what I've done in the past. The way I've tried to make films universal is just actually

through specificity. Just make them about my life, and make them about how I'm feeling, and make the emotions and the characters so specific that they're bound to affect other people. You know. I think we're more there's more commonality in us than we know now, all that floral language aside. I'd love to make a big, big budget movie, you know. I'd love to make a big studio film. And it might destroy me. It might ruin my career and ruin

my life and my marriage. I have no idea. I haven't been through it before, but I want to try. Um just you know, just from a purely tech Nickel standpoint, I'd love to have access, uh to that level of filmmaking. I want to shoot something on seventy millimeter, you know, I just want it to be beautiful and big. And epic and sweeping, UM, things that I have tried to do in all of these other films on an emotional level,

now I want to do on a production level as well. Um, you're just talking scope and scale, not necessarily these big I p s and being a part of those worlds per se, but just necessarily although you know, I'm reading the same tea leaves everybody else that's reading and and this is a phase and we'll get out of it, you know, as a society and as an industry at some point we won't be as um shackle to I p UM. But right now, I feel like it's very hard in the film business to break through without some

connection to it. And you know that's why I'm talking to Fox about alien Nation. UM. You know, I have an original idea there that doesn't have much to do with um, the actual alienation you know movie and TV series, but the title fits and and that's there's real value in that potentially, um, just to get people to listen, you know, just to get people to pay attention. UM.

It's not something that I particularly love. I mean, I'd love to just continue making original films from scratch, and I feel like I'll do that for the rest of my career, but it doesn't mean I won't try my hand at something else in the meantime. Yeah, well, good luck with that, sir. Thank you for being here today. Yeah, thank you, and uh, good luck with alienation. I'm glad you brought it up at the end there, because I saw that headline and I was like, oh wow, it's

floating around. It's it's in it's it's in its infancy though it's a long rod on that one. Good level to thank you again, Thank you, Thanks again for listening everyone. Remember to subscribe and check back next week when we'll be talking to Hell or high Water Star and the dude himself, Jeff Bridges. You've been listening to playback at Variety.