This podcast is supported by VPLA, Victorian Planning Environmental Law Association. Welcome to The Planning Exchange, where we interview built environment professionals who are doing interesting work beyond the ordinary. I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joined by my colleague, Peter Jewell. Pete, here we are, 10 years. Did you ever think this day would come? Yes, I did. Yes. I thought, you know, we will be talking about the podcast in 40 years time.
So 50 years after we start, we'll still be talking about it and still creating hopefully interesting podcasts. So for those of you that don't know, we had our 10 year. Party, it was an excellent night. We had a bunch of our esteemed colleagues that have featured on the podcast. We had some of our amazing sponsors and it was just a really, really lovely night. Did you enjoy yourself? Well, it got a bit out of hand, Jess, at times. there's all sorts of debauchery, in business.
And you'll be happy that we celebrated in style and, everyone had a great time. I hope there was very interesting speeches. A good way of putting it. Yes. And, we had a fun time and a lot of good people around us, Jess, who helped us make the podcast. Absolutely. So this is our 10th anniversary, Jess. We started in 2014. Yep. That's right. And this is episode 125. Now, listeners, Jess. Suggests we go to episode 500. I don't know whether I've got that in the tank, but we will try and keep going.
But tonight, Jess, we've got a very special, well, not really an interview, but a recording. That's right. We are going unstructured for one of the first episodes that we've ever done, where you just get to hear from Pete and I, do you want to explain what we're doing in the later part of the interview? Pete. It was some special guests. My eldest Tom, who was very helpful at the start of the podcast, the tech issues. And also he produced some of the music, which was on some of the outros.
I still remember meeting Tom at a cafe in Richmond in the very early days of the podcast. And I think he was probably in year 10 or something like that. He was very young, and he was so helpful and so positive and he was such a great asset to us in those early days and helping us set everything up. He's been very well brought up, Tom asked, AI to do a review. Of planning exchange podcast. And all he said was, look at this website, do a review.
So dear listener what you're about to hear after we finish up talking will be a couple analyzing and discussing planning exchange, just the robots. And do you think it's an accurate representation? It's very flattering and parts, and I think Jess, it's like some of the interviews, it wanders over the place. They delve into, you know, long ago episodes and bring up parts that I've forgotten Jess. Was it through chat, GPT, that he did it?
I don't know which one, but it's remarkable because Jess, you'll recall in the early days of the interviews with guests, you know we would ask, how long till computers start making planning decisions. And our guests laughed and said, never, you know, computers could never make decisions on planning applications or requests or tribunals. And here we are. Have you used it yourself? I do. I do use it for all sorts of things.
Is there a way in which you're meant to ask the questions to get the best result? Cause I feel like every time I've tried to use it, it's been fairly hit and miss, to be honest. You delve deeper because it gives very broad answers at the start, but you know, some, some things like just, I say, look, I'm a, I love tennis as you know Jess, and I'm a hack player. Chat GPT or whatever, what can I do? What are the, what are the five things I can concentrate on to be a better player?
And it gives really good advice. Um, I mean, I keep, I keep trying to chat up Siri, but she doesn't respond. So, you know, your point before about how we used to ask all of our interviewers. Sorry, interviewees, that, that question. I think the other question we quite regularly asked was about driverless cars and how soon that was going to happen. And that seems to have fallen off the radar a bit in terms of our industry. There's not as much talk about that anymore.
There's obviously a lot of talk about electric cars. But hasn't been as much talk about driverless cars for some time. Well, it's interesting, Jess, if you go back over the 10 years, certain things were very, I don't know, probably you know, trendy, or faddish and it's amazing how people get sucked into the next greatest thing.
Like I think, you know, you're going to die, but they're very, you know, very popular in certain circles, but there's lots of fashions your general overview of, I suppose, Jess, we should tell our listeners how we do the podcast. Absolutely. I think that's probably evolved a lot over the years as well, Pete, because in the early days we had a single microphone. We would, crowd around a very small table and talk to our guests.
Um, we then moved to meeting our guests in a, you know, generally in a bigger room around boardroom table with multiple microphones, a very professional setup. If I, if I can say, and then of course, COVID hit and we had to pivot to a zoom only model So that's where we are now. Our format has changed somewhat in that we used to meet up with our guests for extensive sessions pre podcast. We'd talk about questions and themes and the like, and we would have coffee, we might have lunch.
There was a very structured way in which we. Approached all of our guests. And then of course, over the years, as we've become more comfortable, we have become more efficient. We know what we're doing and we generally draft our questions and themes and we send them to our guests ahead of time and get their input on those, make sure that they're comfortable. Very rarely do we get much requested changes to the questions, and then we record generally. That's right.
So listeners, we approach different people. So Jess might, read, hear something or have a referral. Likewise. And then we go and approach those people. Most of the time people respond yes. I don't think we've actually had many people say no. Oh, jess, in my life I've had lots of rejection. I feel like most people have been very, very generous. Yeah. Very open to the idea, very generous with their time. We've been extremely lucky in that regard and we've had really good guests.
And so then as you say, Jess, we send them what we call as Q and T's, questions and themes. And, you know, that involves a bit of research by us, Jess, you don't want to waste the subjects time and we don't want to have a bad interview. And I think it also depends on who we're interviewing, you know, we have a very broad. range of people that we interview. We have people that. Or almost professional podcasters that do the rounds, I guess you'd call it on lots of different podcasts.
So they're very seasoned at it. A lot of people that have never done a podcast before and are very nervous. So we have to sort of accommodate for both types of people or both backgrounds, the professionals and the novice I guess we would call them. So hence why we do. Generally approach the interview in a somewhat structured manner. You mean people who've been interviewed on podcasts, people that have done lots of podcasts. Yeah. So I find.
When we first, the first time we interview someone is when we meet them and we meet them online and, we have a chat for maybe five or 10 minutes, Jess. And in that short time we have to make them comfortable, I suppose, Jess. Yeah. Tell some bad jokes. I always say to some of the guests, I say, look, we're going to make you famous or, and you realize that some goat herder in the Gobi desert is going to be hanging off every word that you say.
And so this is, you've got to make the guest comfortable and also that it's going to be a professional interview. We, this is a passion project for both of us, Jess, you've got full time work. You've got. Heaps of things going on family wise and everything like that. But we still try to make it the best, I think.
Absolutely. And I do like our interviews when we interview our podcast cousins, with other people who produce planning related podcasts, it's always good to, and we call them our cousin, but it's always good to hear how they go with it. Compare notes. And so we have the interview and we give the questions and themes to our subject, but we do go off on tangents, Jess, quite a bit. Yes, absolutely. I think you go off on sharper, more distant tangents than anyone.
Lies. Yeah, no, you just chase them down on, you know, like off you go. I don't know. And listeners, when we record, we don't have our video on, we'll be just texting each other. Um, but, and the reason we don't have the video on is for audio quality not because we don't like to look at each other and, and thank you, Jess and an apology sometimes listeners, if the audio is a bit crackly, that's normally our guest.
Um, But we have a great audio engineer in Jack, Jack Bavage, who, manages to put fixes all our blemishes, Jess. Makes us sound somewhat professional when it's perhaps not always as professional as it could be. That's right. So on the AI topic, Jess, I've heard from people that they would prefer AI to assess their proposals rather than the actual people who do review them.
I mean, it's interesting that you say that I was thinking about this recently, you know, I think when we first started having this conversation about, and then, you know, as you mentioned before, that we did ask this question to a lot of our guests in the early days, the response was always, well, no, that wouldn't be possible, particularly in the context that we predominantly work in Pete because we have a lot of subjective, you know, policy and subjective policy directions and the like,
which make it, Almost near impossible. I think for a machine to make a decision on those sorts of things. There's also been a conversation obviously about design and the fact that our subjective and discretionary type controls produce better design outcomes. Now. That's probably up for debate. And I'm sure some of our colleagues in other states and countries would disagree with that.
And I'm sure that there's probably ways around that, but it's interesting now in the current climate that we're in, in our work context, and I won't get too specific here. Um, so as not to bore our listeners, but, you know, I think we're very much moving towards a system that is somewhat automated, you know, it's a bit more of a tick the box system as opposed to being a discretionary type system.
And I know this works in other states, but I wonder whether that change of direction or tact is somewhat purposeful, knowing that. Machines would then be able to make more of the decisions and not, not saying that would be all of the decisions, but certainly the low hanging fruit could somewhat be managed or, decided on through AI. What do you think?
It has a big role, Jess, and, you know, I always think back that the blue collar workforce, the industrial workforce was decimated by industrialization and, you know, in the seventies and eighties, a lot of factories were just got smashed by, automation and things like that. And it never really hit the white collar sector, which we are in. I suspect AI is just going to be a very efficient tool for a number of workplaces to reduce workers.
I think, you know, when it can program things so well, like you'll hear listeners, I mean, it's remarkable that the two people, I'll call them people, entities who review us. I mean, you could say that they were human in every way, Jess. Absolutely. And so I think AI is, I think the progress is going to be incredible. I'm always positive that I think the future is our friend. I think it's all positive things, but Jess, where to from here?
What sort of areas, what sort of topics would you like to explore going forward? I think we've had some really interesting ones this year. And we've interviewed, Well, maybe not so much this year, but particularly over the last couple of years, we've interviewed a lot of people in the academic space, which has been a really good way of breaking up some of the other guests that we have had. Some of them have been really interesting.
I really enjoy hearing about the new research that's coming out that might potentially influence our profession moving forward. So I've really enjoyed that and would like to continue doing that. I think there's lots of different opportunities here. I mean, as we keep saying, Pete, we're never short of people to interview. And look, I think that's also been, influenced by the fact that we have. We've interviewed people from all over the world. You know, we're not limited to Victoria.
We're not limited to Australia where we've interviewed that many people internationally now that we probably can't even call ourselves a Victorian based or Australian based podcast Trans global but I hope, I hope dear listeners, you don't get upset with our Aussie accents, just absolutely. And you know, it all is about new ideas, Jess, you're right. And, you know, we have to be open to new ideas and new ways of doing things. And I think we should also be really open to failure. Absolutely.
Try things to fail, because I get frustrated with the planning orthodoxy, Jess, you know, there's a set formula to, for baking a cake. And I think that there's lots of different cakes you can bake. Of course, you have to follow the essential, approaches, but I think that there's lots of things we don't know yet, but we have to be open to those things. Absolutely. And I suspect the next 10 years is going to be as revolutionary in city development and planning than the last 30, 40 years.
I'm feeling that we are on the cusp of some great new things. I also thought it would be interesting to talk about, the feedback that we get, which is few and far between, to be honest, we very much appreciate feedback when we get it, but we don't get a lot of it. Well, some of it's negative and some of it's definitely negative, but we get a lot of positive and positive. And, and also even the, and you know, we received one the other day, dear listener.
And it was couched in, I'm a big fan of the show, but I, but I've got a feeling that you are leaning in one, one way. Yeah. I am. Yep. I write this as I want to keep listening and I don't want you to change anything, but just I've got this feeling, which, which is a really lovely thing to do, Jess. I mean, we produce the podcast and then we push publish and off it goes and we try to make them interesting and we try to let the subject speak. Jess and I are, very careful not to let.
Our personal opinions or preferences get in the way because we don't want to make a partisan. In any way, Jess, what do you think? Yeah, absolutely. We try and let the person talk and we challenge them on points if we see fit, but it's really about recording some of these really important professionals in our industry.
And, we were talking before Pete that on a slightly somber note that we've actually Had a number of the people that we've interviewed over the years, pass away, which has been extremely sad, but we're proud that we can preserve, their memory and some of their professional background and their thoughts and ideas on certain things. And that will be there forever. For their families, for their friends, their colleagues to perhaps listen to and, reflect on.
Well you know, from ''Elegy Written in a County Churchyard', the paths of glory lead but to the grave'. Jess, you know how I like reciting poetry and things like that. Absolutely. ;The paths of glory lead but to the grave.' So that's where it goes, but, so we've got with the podcast, we obviously got the interview and then we have the more lighthearted part, which is podcast extra culture corner.
And that was pinched from a podcast I really liked, which is no longer going 'London calling', but that is a different type of segment, Jess. Yes, it is. And one that always makes me feel like I don't have much of a life at the moment. You've got a very full life. What are you saying? But, but, and what do you think that segment brings forward, Jess? It's a really interesting segment in that it shows us or tells us a lot about, the person that we're interviewing.
And I think my favorite interviews over the years have been the ones where, cause we often say to our guests, right, this does not need to be planning related or work related. And I would say that 80 percent of people still recommend something that's work related. So I always find it really interesting and I love when people recommend something that's not work related, cause it really shows their true personality or shows you something more about them.
And you know, certainly for me, mine absolutely never work related minor, always a terrible book or terrible TV show that I'm watching. I think I recommended omelettes the other day, Jess. Well, mine today, isn't going to be too dissimilar, but it is fun. So do you listen? We really enjoy what we do. We muddle along. It is, you know, we're independent. We have got some sponsors, but no one ever influences how we approach things or what we say. And we really enjoy what we do.
I think Jess and 10 years on, it's, you know, we've both gone through a lot of things in that last 10 years, but I said to someone the other day, Oh, we're not professional podcasters. And they said, what are you talking about? You've been doing it for 10 years. You're doing podcasting before anyone else was doing podcasting. Of course you're a professional. We did start early and, I think, it's the people who do other podcasts. Everyone's very supportive of each other like that.
I think we are one of Australia's longest running independent city affairs, you know, planning podcasts. And also people are come and going sadly they do, but we're also looking for a big new sponsor. So I'll just put that out. So if you, if you know anyone with pot loads of money.
If you're very altruistic and want to help us out, they can send us an email and who perhaps wants to increase their coverage of their, of their company or increase the, um, If they're associated with us, yes, they will have enormous success. We associate with our brand planning exchange or PX. Now, Jess, what, uh, podcast extra culture corner, whatever you got to for that. Well, not dissimilar to your omelets. I've been making a lot of pizzas recently.
Very short on time at the moment, life's just pretty hectic leading into Christmas. And we've started making pizzas with the kids, generally only once a week, not feeding them pizza every single night, but it's a really nice, fun sort of family activity. Everyone gets involved. Kids roll pizza dough and, you know, they'll spread the pasata out on the base and put the herbs on and all the rest. And it's been really nice.
This is a really, it really, a really nice way to end the day and everyone can be part of it. Everyone's learning something. It's been nice. So I really haven't had time to read any books or watch any movies in the last couple of weeks. It's all been a bit hectic. So what about you, Pete? Oh, well, since we haven't got a guest, Jess, I've got maybe two or three and You always outdo me . You've always got very highbrow recommendations.
No, no. It's once I've, I'm completely obsessed with tennis, as you know, Jess and, my tennis game needs some help apart from chat, GPT. So I bought myself a ball machine. Jess, I used one. I used, it's a secondhand one. doing it? Down the coast. But like in your backyard or something or are you taking No, no, no. You set it up at a tennis court. Okay. Right. I'm a member down there, so, and. I love it.
So I just get out there when no one else is around because I'm too embarrassed, because practicing is sort of cheating in the comp I play in. So and you're out there in the dark with the spotlight on, you're right. So, and you can set it, it can teach basic beginners, or it can be used for top pros. There's so many different settings. Maybe I might need to come down and use it. Oh, look, Jess, it's so good. When you come down, I'll put the cones down.
So I'll say I'm a bad coach, Jess, I'm really, I'm a really harsh coach, right? You don't want me to teach you anything, right? But. I remember when Chris fell off the motorbike, I was teaching her how to ride a trail bike and wouldn't get back on it. I just shouted, I said, get back on the bike. And the other thing I'm really getting into a book called My Brother Jack.
I read it at school many years ago, and it's a fascinating, it's one of the top, maybe 10 Australian books of all time, My Brother Jack, and, it's about two brothers and growing up in Melbourne in the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s. And it's about, two different types of Australia. The good thing about the internet is there's so many resources about the author. So you learn all about the author. I went to visit where he grew up the other day the house is still there.
And so I'm just really enjoying that and thinking about future episodes, Jess, about cultural tourism. And the importance, you know, how cities can make more of that place. And one final thing, you know, I'm a big, I love the first Mad Max movie. I think it was called something different in America and they dubbed it. That was the first Mel Gibson movie, Mad Max. And it wasn't made on a big budget. And it's this 1979 sort of near future dystopia where the police are fighting bikie gangs.
And, on YouTube, there's all these productions about where all the scenes are shot and in one of them, you know, all these tourists go to these spots because they're just so into the movie. And I know a number of those places, so it's, they're, they're my podcast extras, Jess. So I've just been rambling. It's, it's a real pleasure. I shouldn't say this, not having a guest, but we can just. Absolutely. Make sure you get to know the real us, the real people behind the mics. Maybe not.
I think I prefer the glam image on the front cover of all those magazines that we appeared, Jess. I hope our listeners like the AI and I hope we haven't, you know, bored too many people by our rambling, but it's just such a great privilege to do this with you, Jess. And I'm really proud of what we've done and it's a very humbling, very humbling experience to be part of all this. Absolutely. It's been a real pleasure and something I hope we can continue long into the future.
Well, you said 500, that's 375 episodes to go. I look forward to more podcast extras, your recommendations. That's my new year's resolution is, come up with better podcast extras. I You don't need to do anything. So this is a Christmas new year and you'll probably be hearing it, after Christmas, but all the best to you and your family and thank you so much for being part of, PX. And, all the very best from me. I'm sure from you, Jess. Absolutely.
And remember listeners, we want to hear from you if you have comments, suggestions for guests, or you want to suggest yourself, please get in touch. We, we love to hear from you. So that's it. I'm so looking forward to Christmas. Me too. Okay. So we're diving into the world of planning exchange today. You know, that podcast, right? Yeah. It's got a fascinating premise, bringing together urban planners and experts from all sorts of fields. Right. And I mean, all else sorts.
We're talking architecture. But then you see an entomologist on the episode list and you're like, wait, what? It's definitely not your typical city planning podcast. They're not afraid to get into some really niche topics. Like in episode PX109, they had Doug Tallamy on, you know, the entomologist. Yeah. You were telling me about him. He's the one who wants us to rethink our lawns, right? Exactly. Exactly.
He argues that our obsession with these perfectly manicured lawns is actually really bad for the environment. Which, okay, I have to admit, as someone who loves her garden, it kind of blew my mind when you first explained it. Like I never would have thought about the impact even something like that has on the city's ecosystem. Right. But it makes sense when you think about it. Cities aren't these isolated bubbles. They're part of a larger ecosystem.
So, like, tell me more about what this Ptolemy guy proposes. What's the alternative to a lawn? Well, he's a big proponent of native plants. He argues that they're not only better for the environment, but they can actually be really beautiful and low maintenance, too. Okay, so maybe I don't have to give up on my garden entirely. Definitely not. It's more about being mindful of the choices we make, even in our own backyards. I love that.
And this is what I'm excited to dig into with They're not just talking about buildings and roads, they're talking about the whole fabric of the city. Absolutely. They look at how all these different elements interact and influence one another. Like for example, they had this episode, PX 121 with Calvin Poe. Oh yeah. I saw his name on the list. He's an architect, right? Yeah. But he's also a really vocal advocate for affordable housing.
In his episode, he argues that housing should be considered a fundamental human right. Oh, okay. I did not see that coming. That's a really powerful statement. It is. And it really makes you think about the role of urban planning in addressing these bigger social issues. Right. Like, if everyone deserves a place to live, how does that change how we design and build cities? Exactly. And that's what I love about planning exchange. They're not afraid to tackle these big, complex questions.
So it's not just about making cities functional. It's about making them just. Yeah. And equitable. Exactly. It's about creating cities that work for everyone. Okay. I'm hooked. This is way more interesting than I thought it would be. Right. And we haven't even gotten to the magician yet. Wait. There's a magician on this podcast? There is. And honestly, his episode might be one of the most thrilling. thought provoking ones yet. Yeah, so episode PX 98 features Tim Ellis.
He's like this big deal in the magic world. Okay. The artistic director of the Melbourne Magic Festival, no less. Wow, seriously. Okay, so what does a magic festival have to do with urban planning? That's the thing. You wouldn't think there'd be a connection, but Ellis makes this really compelling argument. Go on, I'm listening. He says, Think about what makes magic so captivating, right? It's that sense of wonder, the unexpected. Okay, yeah.
And he believes cities can be designed to evoke those same feelings. So we're not talking about like building giant top hats or anything? Ha ha! No, not exactly. It's more about creating spaces that spark our curiosity. Or imagination. Like, imagine you're walking down the street and you stumble upon this hidden courtyard. Okay. And there's like this amazing art installation or maybe even just a bunch of people playing music.
It's those little moments of delight that make a city feel truly magical. I agree with you with this. Yeah. It's about designing those pauses, those breaths of fresh air into the urban fabric. You know, instead of just these concrete jungles. Yeah, totally. Those little surprises can make a big difference. Exactly. And they don't have to be these grand, expensive things either. Right.
Sometimes the simplest interventions can have a huge impact, like a well placed bench, a community garden, even just some really cool street art. It's about being intentional with the design. Right. Thinking about how people interact with their surroundings. Exactly. And Planning Exchange, they're really good at highlighting these often overlooked aspects of urban design. Yeah, they seem to have a knack for finding guests who challenge our assumptions.
Like, remember that episode with Lucinda Hartley? Oh yeah, PX37. Yeah, where she's talking about using data to, like, measure the happiness of a neighborhood. And it sounds kind of crazy at first, but then you're like, wait a minute, maybe that's exactly what we should be focusing on. Because at the end of the day, isn't that what good urban planning is all about? Creating places where people thrive. Right. It's not just about buildings and infrastructure, it's about people.
Yeah. And how they experience the city. And that's something that Planning Exchange understands really well. They're constantly bringing in these diverse voices to show how urban planning intersects with so many different aspects of our lives. Exactly. Like it's not just about zoning laws and building codes, it's about social justice. It's about the environment. It's about art and culture and even magic apparently. Right.
And speaking of art and culture, there's this other episode I wanted to mention. Okay, hit me with it. It's Px88 with Katherine Hagen. Let me guess, she's an architect. You know it. But she's not just any architect. She's worked on everything from skyscrapers to historical preservation projects. She even led the team in charge of protecting Victoria's heritage buildings. Wow. Talk about a diverse portfolio. Right.
And in her episode, she talks about this really interesting challenge that cities face. So basically, it's this whole thing about balancing a city's history with its future. Right, because you don't want to just bulldoze the past to make way for the new. Exactly. And Hagen, she talks about how important it is to understand a city's story, you know, its unique character, before you even start thinking about new development. Makes sense.
Like, you need to know where you've been before you can figure out where you're going. Right. It's about finding ways to honor the old, While still making room for the new, and sometimes that means getting creative. You know, thinking outside the box. Which is something Planning Exchange never shies away from. They're always pushing the boundaries of what urban planning can be. And they're not afraid to have a little fun with it either. Definitely.
Like, remember that whole discussion about designing cities for magic? That was pretty out there. But also kind of brilliant, right? Who wouldn't wanna live in a city that feels a little bit magical. Exactly. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with those moments of delight, those unexpected encounters. That's what makes city life so special. Totally. It's about creating spaces where people can connect with each other, with their surroundings, with the unexpected.
And that's what I appreciate most about this deep dive into. Planning Exchange. They've shown us that urban planning, it's not just about bricks and mortar, it's about people. It's about creating a sense of place. Exactly. And that place, it should be a reflection of our values, our aspirations, our dreams. It should be a place where everyone feels welcome and inspired.
Absolutely. And I think Planning Exchange, they're doing a fantastic job of starting those conversations, you know, getting people excited about the possibilities of urban planning. Yeah, they've definitely got me thinking differently about the cities I live in and love. And who knows, maybe this deep dive will inspire some of our listeners to get involved in shaping the future of their own communities.
Because at the end of the day, urban planning, it's not just about the experts, it's about all of us. So if you're feeling inspired, head over to Planning Exchange and check out their amazing lineup of episodes. And hey, maybe you'll even be the one inspiring our next deep dive. Now that would be something. Thanks for listening. If you would like to hear more of our podcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify or the like button on SoundCloud or the subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
Please also visit our Instagram page, LinkedIn, or website for behind the scenes footage of our podcasts and to get the latest on upcoming or recently released episodes. If you have any suggestions or feedback, please get in touch via our social media channels or by emailing planningexchange at gmail. com. A special shout out also to Jack Babbage, who does such an incredible job in producing this podcast.