This is a general transcript of the episode. There have been slight changes to allow for grammar and continuity. This podcast is supported by VPLA, Victorian Planning Environmental Law Association. Welcome to The Planning Exchange, where we interview built environment professionals who are doing interesting work beyond the ordinary. I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joined by my colleague, Peter Jewell. Access to public toilets forms part of the global framework of human rights to water and sanitation.
Public toilets provide individual health benefits and support people to participate in public spaces and community activities. The provision of accessible and inclusive public toilets also contributes to citywide economic development as they can attract visitors and allow people to stay in public spaces for longer.
However, access to public toilets continues to be limited by the lack of provision, unsuitable design, poor maintenance and management practices that restrict access, meaning these rights and benefits are not realized for all, with a greater impact on populations with specific toileting needs. Today's guest on the podcast is Katherine Weber, an expert on public toilets. And what I've just read out is part of the abstract for her master's thesis that was published only a few weeks ago.
Welcome to the show, Katherine can we start off with your best toilet joke? Oh gosh. I hadn't prepared a toilet joke. I figured you'd have so many up your sleeve. They're often in response to somebody's comments. So I'm flushed with excitement to be here today. I like it. Good start. Now, Katherine, can you start off with telling us a little bit about how you came to write a thesis on public toilets? What's your background?
Thank you, Jess. I'm joining today, from the Bundjalan country in northern New South Wales. And I think I've got an interesting toilet journey to get me where I am. So I have a varied education and employment history. And I'm currently a teacher. a social planner, a public toilet advocate and researcher. I've worked in local government, mostly in Queensland, and I've also done some work internationally in Papua New Guinea and Fiji, working on the UN Women's Safe Cities program.
And I've also worked for an NGO in Australia on sexual and reproductive health. All of these jobs have had a really strong focus on social inclusion and planning for people. And it was after maybe 10, 12 years that I realized I'd informally been collecting people's toilet stories. So often there was a lack of suitable toilets, and that was a barrier for their participation. And so that's how I got curious, about public toilets, and recently have become rather passionate, talking about toilets.
Katherine, in 2018, you were awarded the Rodney Warmington Churchill Fellowship to look into inclusion, accessibility in public toilets. Can you tell us a little bit about Rodney Warmington? I hope I've got that right. And secondly, about the Churchill Fellowship program. Most definitely. So the Winston Churchill Trust supports Australians to travel overseas to learn about a topic and then bring that new knowledge back to Australia.
It's a really fantastic project, because you don't need any specific qualifications but just a real passion for a topic, and identify a gap that needs to be addressed. So Rodney Warmington was an Australian architect and his passion was about barrier free architecture. In 1966, he became a paraplegic after an accident. In 1973, he was a Churchill fellow and his fellowship, was exploring barrier free architecture.
A Churchill Fellowship has been set up in his name, and that supports any topic that improves mobility, accessibility, or liability, in the Australian environment or community. And I've been lucky enough to be one of four people who've received the Rodney Warmington Churchill Fellowship. Other topics have also looked at building accessibility, physical activity, and transport. We'll put in our episode notes.
Katherine will put in your little YouTube clip where you present to the Churchill Fellowship. You went on to do an international study tour. Can you tell us a little bit about this? So as part of the Churchill Fellowship, I spent eight weeks traveling UK and Europe. It was a journey. A great opportunity to see a variety of public toilets in situ. But also I got to meet with toilet activists.
I got to meet with toilet manufacturers, policy makers, and I went on a London loo tour, which was lots of fun. So I got to speak to people about the different ways that public toilets are designed, planned, advocated for. I ended up taking lots of photographs, and published a report that is available on the Churchill Fellowship website. And you've previously said that public toilets are our most important infrastructure and public spaces and probably the most underrated.
Can you talk to this a little bit? I know like my personal experience with public toilets. In public spaces is pretty varied. Like I've got two young children and I feel like there's never a public toilet. We want one first of all. And then like you think about particularly some of the key tourist destinations that probably a lot of us Australians have been to across the world. I feel like the experience of public toilets in most of those spaces is probably fairly varied.
Like you think about, parts of Europe in particular where, You need to pay to go to a public toilet. And if you don't have the money or you don't have the right change, you can't actually get in easily. And of course, you know, when you've got small children or, you don't have, the same abilities as what other people have, that's a very difficult proposition to be in. So, yes, it's definitely an underrated, public resource. So what are your thoughts around that?
So if we first define public toilets, they're the toilets that you use when you're out of the home. So we've then got two types of public toilets. There's the on street ones, which are available in our parks and on our streets. And there's not necessarily a barrier to accessing using these, if they're open of course. We've also then got off street public toilets. Which are the ones that might be in our shopping centers, restaurants, places of work, et cetera.
And so often you need to be a client to use these ones as well. So there can be additional barriers to access them. Now, I think they're really important. And as you've said, we've all got bodily functions. And we all have different levels of control and cultural ways of undertaking these bodily functions. And so if there's not that infrastructure, that's when you really, you notice when they're not there, or if they're there but they can't meet your needs.
Public toilets support these bodily functions so I hope people don't get squeamish, but we've got urination, defecation, menstruation, taking medications, breastfeeding, mental health breaks. People will hide away in toilets as well. So they support a variety of different uses. It's really difficult for people to be able to stay, to use and enjoy these public spaces and often they're underrated because they're not incorporated into the design, the planning and the management of these spaces.
Katherine, you've said, in some of your researchwork that toilets are not seen as a priority or even as a liability. How did this situation come about and what do you consider it to be? So, and, and just before you answer that, um, I was speaking to a colleague who managed public toilets and for a couple of different councils. And he said, that they were one of the biggest problems for the council in terms of, security of their staff and maintenance. Any thoughts about that?
Yeah, so I've touched on the benefits of having toilets, but there is also the flip side. And so while they are an important investment, they can be seen as unsafe and also costly. You're interacting with the behaviors of other people. So there could be vandalism, violence, drug use, sexual assault are all reported activities in public toilets. Then you've also got the fear of germs, the germs of others. And they can be costly to build and costly to maintain.
So I think it is really difficult to balance these two different perceptions of public toilets, because they do provide a real community benefit when they are provided and they're accessible and people can use them, but there are risks associated with them that do need to be managed. Often local governments will close public toilets of a nighttime, which can reduce some of those risks, but then also remove some of the access as well.
So they are, I guess, a really complex type of infrastructure that you may not get with other forms such as, Other forms of infrastructure such as roads and parks, Generally speaking, I feel like a lot of councils are moving towards those.
I'm sure they've got a technical name but you know those automated types of toilets that Personally scared the crap out of me because I don't want to get stuck in them, but you know, they've got like the, the button that you press and the door closes, and it feels like you're going into a bunker.
I don't know if they've got a technical name, but, I feel like a lot of them are moving towards that version now, because obviously they want to be able to shut them off at particular hours, but in doing so that's obviously a much more expensive type of infrastructure. I imagine, versus the old, you know, toilet, just four walls around it and a single basin outside of it. You know, the needs have become far more complex. Yeah, Jess, they are called automated public toilets.
They are definitely viewed, favorably by councils and public toilet managers, because they reduce those risks. They're automated cleaning, they automatically open and close, if you're in there for too long, they will pop open, so that prevents people from taking drugs, for sleeping in there. But you do have that user experience that they are not an enjoyable space to use. They can be really cold, they can be really harsh, they're often wet from the recent cleaning.
So, there is that flip side again of the automated public toilets that they are meeting a need. But they also can be more expensive to build and install. Complex, complex. Katherine, just going back, traveling back in time, public toilets only came into being in the 19th century. I mean, I'm sure they were convenient somehow before that, but they really came into their force in the 19th century. What technological and social changes made them possible?
So there's been some fantastic historians that have looked at public toilets, and they really are linked in to the industrialization of cities, because that's when you had people living together, moving around, and needing the toilets that weren't on the farm, weren't located in the home. So it was the industrialization of cities, people moving in together, in addition, the sewer system. And so you needed a way to manage. All those people's waste.
As part of my Churchill fellowship, I did do the London loo tour, which, has the history of toilets and sanitation and also visited the cross nest pumping station, which was, one of the first ways of, I guess, managing, industrialized cities waste. Interestingly enough, when cities were first building public toilets, they were building them for men. There has been some great research looking at the social acceptability of women's toilets, and often they were not built for men.
At the same time, and didn't have the same social acceptability as the men's public toilets for a variety of reason. So, you know, women weren't deemed needing them out in public spaces because they weren't moving around as much as men was the common theme. They didn't want to see women using toilets, that needed to be something that was more private.
And so, yeah, there's this great tension, although while we did have You know, cities forming and public toilets being built, there were still the gendered impacts of toilets way back, at the start of our cities. And was there a civic time of pride or golden age of public toilets? I think there's, advertising that you see in magazines, promoting toilets and powder rooms for women to encourage them shopping, you know, when department stores were being created.
And I think partly, you might have some of it happening now. You've got competitions for, the design of public toilets. And you've also got toilet tourism. You've got some beautiful public toilets being built, with public art incorporated into them. Up in Maryborough, there's the Cistern Chapel, and they have painted the entire public toilet inside and out, to decorate it. So I think you've got, you know, there is some level of civic pride now for some types of, for some toilets.
So I think, yeah, that there is some now, and I think there's also, there has been some in the past as well. Now Katherine, site inspections for town planning assessments can be difficult at time, can be very difficult at times because you don't want to intrude and you don't want to be noticed essentially. But study tours of public tours must be a factor of 10 times harder. Any thoughts, any about your experiences?
Peter, I enjoy visiting a public toilet, you never know what you're gonna find, I think the difficulty relates to, it's around people, so you just need to be really careful when you're taking photos, you don't want other people in them, no one, no one wants that, but I do have a a Instagram account and I've taken hundreds of photos of public toilets, and happy to share them. So I think, they can be fun, but also you just have to go in knowing that, it is a private space.
People are doing private activities. Within a larger public space. So it just requires a little bit of sensitivity. Now Katherine, I think following on from your study tour and your master's thesis, you've got a number of different recommendations coming from that. Can you describe some of these? Yeah, definitely. So, as part of the Churchill report, was really trying to reframe how we view public toilets.
So, I've talked about seeing public toilets as a community investment, not just those risky, scary places. And I think they do support so many benefits. So, it's making sure that we, Really consider public toilets when we are building our public spaces. One of the recommendations I did propose was for federally funded projects that have public accessibility to include a toilets needs assessment. So in Wales that requires local governments to, undertake a public toilet needs assessment.
So it's looking at the people and how they move around their local government or across transport networks. To see what toilets they can access and I think that's something that we could apply within the Australian context because often if they are being built or designed their site by site, so we're not looking at the network of how people move around. So I think that's really important to network approach to public toilets would be one of the key recommendations.
And so therefore, if we are doing, you know, mass transit. Transport projects. We incorporate public toilets needs assessment into those as well. Local governments could create local public toilet strategies. So it's really, Looking at public toilets as an infrastructure that requires a network, but also responding to those local community needs.
So making sure planning process, because different users have different toileting needs, people with disabilities, will have different access requirements. And so they need to be addressed, which can be done through planning as well. And Katherine, the physical design of public toilets as. First off is placement. Can you talk to this point? And I'm a bit of overlap from what you've already said, but the placement.
So I think we can all think of a time where we've been out and you can't find the toilet. Um, you know, it might exist, but there might not be any signs to it, or you, you find it, it's down a hallway, up three stairs, around a corner, past the garbage bins, you get there and then there needs to be a key. So you've got to walk all the way back and hope that you're not in such an urgent rush so it's really important that toilets are easy to find, but in a well located space.
So that's what I mean when I'm talking about placement. Or if you're a female, you walk down the long hallway around the corner and up three stairs and down another hallway, and then find that the line is about 20 females deep, and then you're going to be waiting probably 25 minutes before you can get in. Anyway, it's a side note. Um, yeah, there is, um, no, just a statement, sorry, a whinge.
Oh, well the building codes just did a consultation on increasing the number of toilets required in cinemas and theatres. Theaters. Well, that was gonna be my exact example. I was at the theater a couple weeks ago and I, yeah, it was very unpleasant. Anyway, we don't need to get into the specifics of that . So obviously there are, there are other things to consider in designing public toilets such as privacy, ventilation, and lighting. How much of this did you explore through your research?
So there's different types of privacy that. need to be addressed when they're looking at public toilets. So the first one is visual privacy. So people want to know that other people can't see what they're doing when they're in a toilet. Now this differs when it comes to urinals and cubicles. So cubicles where people are sitting down, they might be removing parts of their clothing. They want to make sure people can't see above or below the doors or between cracks.
In urinals, there is not as much privacy. There may not be dividers between different urinals. They may not be in a cubicle. So you've got that different level of visual privacy. You've also got auditory privacy. So people don't necessarily want to hear what's happening in the cubicle next to them. Then you've got, ventilation can relate to olfactory privacy.
So people don't want to smell what's happening next door or what's been, what's happened in the toilet just, you know, before they've arrived. So, You know, these are factors that do need to be considered in the design and planning, and then on the flip side of privacy is safety and lighting can be one way of, of addressing safety as well. So, making sure that you can see the whole toilet, that there aren't dark places that people might be hiding in.
So, All of these design factors make people feel safe by having a sense of privacy, but then also, knowing what's happening in there and what's not happening in those spaces. And the good thing, Katherine, is that you would have seen many examples where all those factors are neatly addressed so you get a good outcome. Often you do see one or two of a good example. I think it also depends on when a public toilet is built, to what are the factors that are, Influence the design.
With most built infrastructure, they last for a really long time. So they're not often updated. So I think the more modern public toilets are definitely addressing the visual privacy, but then also that safety. So you've got individual privacy when you're using a cubicle, but you've also got better sightlines through the whole building. So people don't feel like they're entrapped when they go into a public space, public toilet.
Yeah. It's interesting that my contact attendant Katherine said, A lot of the old sort of concrete block, Bessa block toilets, the council's just bulldozing them and starting again, because of all the factors that you mentioned. But moving on to materials and surfaces, they have a significant impact on cleaning and maintenance and therefore the ongoing performance. As attractive as they can be public spaces. Can you talk to some of those factors.
So, I think it really is important to consider the location of the public toilets, and that associated level of use. And the level of management. So the automated public toilets can be really useful when there's a really high level of use, and you're not going to be able to maintain them. One location is Byron Bay by the beach. So you've got a lot of tourists that are coming, a lot of salt, a lot of sand. So you've got.
An automated public toilet there that, you know, is just locations where they could work really well at a nighttime entertainment precincts where there could be a lot of nighttime drinking. You know, so you're not necessarily going to have that maintenance happening over an evening. The cleaning and the maintenance are vital to ensure functioning public toilets that people actually want to use.
You know, we've all been to a public toilet where you've walked in and you've kind of walked back out again. If you haven't really needed to go because it hasn't felt clean and well maintained, and that is also related to the materials and the surfaces that they use. So, stainless steel, you know, is really durable, but it's also can be a not great user experience. For example, Canberra in winter, you're not really going to want to sit down on a rather cold stainless steel.
So there does need to be that tension between materials and surfaces versus the use, like the level of use and then the cleaning and maintenance. Something you probably didn't know about me, Pete, and obviously Katherine, I had a fear of public toilets when I was a little girl, mostly because of the old stainless steel toilets, which you just mentioned.
And as soon as you said the word stainless steel, I felt like I had a shut up because my, I still remember we did a lot of camping when I was little and my mom used to sort of like force me into the public toilets, for showers and, you know, Whatever. And, I just remember so clearly just being petrified of those stainless steel toilets. I was, I don't know what it was.
I think it was probably the combination of the materials, but also the fact that there were, there was generally no toilet seats on them back in those days. And, you know, just the whole experience was horrendous. And I think I just, as a small child thought that something was going to jump up and bite me from those toilets. It was awful. Jess, actually that explains a lot about your personality. No, I'm being facetious Katherine, that's terrible.
Jess, I'm glad you shared that with us because that, Katherine, that's the sort of things that toilet researchers should look into. Yep. And to this day, there is no way you would get me near a stainless steel toilet. I would just walk straight out again. Katherine, that's probably a good time for me to tell my joke. But, this is a longstanding family joke.
Katherine, my father was an architect and one of his, early projects was designing a public toilet in Geelong, one of those ones where you go down the steps in the center of Geelong, and once that was done, he was known by all his mates as being a very shit arse architect, but, anyway, sorry, that's my joke, Jess. Ha ha He did do other things, Katherine.
Anyway, the local climate and culture affects public So I've talked about Canberra in winter, and I think what I learned through the Churchill was that it does matter. So in Portland, Oregon, which is, the North West coast of the USA, the pipes freeze in winter. So they're designing public toilets that will experience snow. When I was traveling in Scotland, went to some minimal water access in remote areas. So they had removed the flush.
In certain types of toilets and had actually, this was pre COVID, had put hand sanitization, hand sanitizer gel in lieu of water. So you will change the design based on the environment and the climate that is in. But then you've also got the cultural factors as well. So in the UK. went to, a university that had spaces for washing before prayer within the public toilets.
And there's a researcher called Kelly Dromboski who's talking about hygiene being situated In Tibet, they don't want to wash their hands with water because they can get frostbite because it is so cold. So you need different ways of making sure body parts are clean. So it's really important to look at the local climate, but then also local culture. To how public toilets will be used. And what are those different hygiene activities that need to occur around them?
Yeah, you've obviously, oh, sorry, you go. I was traveling around Japan on a pretty remote rail line and the train stopped in the middle of nowhere. And there was a compost toilet, on the platform. Katherine, just quite remarkable because they didn't have water. They couldn't supply power to that spot I think that's a brilliant example.
Um, I was just interested to know with all the travel that you've done, whether there were particular cultures or particular countries that might address public toilets better than others, or that you think are leading the way in terms of toilet design? So I, I'm not sure if there's countries that are doing it, but I think it might be more located to specific places or spaces or managers. So in Portland, there's the Portland Loop, which was designed for the local community.
Now it can fit a whole shopping trolley in the space. It's the size of a car park. Design supports the unhoused population, but it's also great for parents with prams or double prams, great for mobility scooters. So I think once you've got that local feedback into the design, it's going to meet their needs. And before the podcast and I were discussing Perfect Days, which is a Japanese movie, about the public toilets in Tokyo.
So I think that the culture in Japan has really valued these public toilets. You see the beautiful design of them, but then also the care in the maintenance, and the cleaning of the public toilets. So I think it's a really different view of a dirty space that you only use when you really, really have to. So I think that. At them, but it in some respects does need that cultural shift. Jess, I can speak to that. I mean, the Japanese, toilets, public toilets are outstanding.
You can eat in there and it's so well maintained no matter where they are. But I think that goes back to the societal, system of trust and also politeness. I think there's a lot to do with the culture in public toilets. I mean, as you say, Katherine, that movie Perfect Days, which we'll put in the episode notes, is all about a cleaner who cleans the Japanese art toilets, which I think you were referring to before.
But following Japan, I think, Jess, Singapore would come next in terms of just the outstanding nature of their public toilets. But, I don't do public toilet tourism, Katherine, you can't help noticing these things when you travel. Look, maybe you are a public toilet tourist, Peter. You just haven't embraced that identity yet. Because I think, you know, it does really impact your experience of traveling.
And Singapore also has the Happy Toilet, program, really looking at how you can promote public toilets and having that pride in their public toilets as well. How do you assess public toilet success? Think that's a really difficult question. Looking at how to assess public toilets. I think it really comes back down to that user experience. If people can find it and use the public toilets and they feel safe for using them, I think, you know, that's all the boxes ticked.
You then have to look at the property manager, so who's responsible for the toilet and can it be maintained, In an affordable way, because I think there's that tension between the user and the manager. So I think this is probably an area for a little bit more research and more thought about how you can kind of assess. Whether or not public toilets are working. I think, Katherine, maybe the design of them too.
If a community, particularly smaller communities, if a toilet's well designed and it's working well for visitors or whoever, people, value in it, right? Sort of a bit of ownership as well. Yeah, I think the local ownership I think often can come through through that public art or that involvement in the design. But it's one of those types of infrastructure that you don't just build a toilet for the sake of building it you're building a toilet because people need to use it.
So having a toilet built that is locked 23 the day defeats the purpose of having a toilet there. So there has to be something around that, that usability. That feature, but then also how it is maintained as well. Katherine, what's your attitude to mixed toilets? So by mixed toilets, are you talking about the unisex or gender neutral toilets? Yes. Yeah. So I think there's a really valuable space in providing gender neutral toilets. They serve.
a whole variety of the population, great for parents with children of a different gender to them. If you are a mother with a son, what age do you stop bringing him into the women's toilets? At what age do you send him into a male toilets by themselves? So therefore I think, Mixed toilets, gender neutral unisex toilets really can meet that need. I think also for gender diverse people, people who are caring. So I think there is opportunity to be providing more of them.
I think we see some really great examples, in our public spaces, particularly by beaches, or in parks where you just have a row of toilets that just have both the male and female along the door, with a communal. So you can see who's going in and going out of them that, you know, not everybody likes them. So I think it is important that they provided with other options. Of having the specific gender toilets as well. Which then support that safety and privacy.
But I, you know, I'm a big advocate for providing more gender neutral and unisex public toilets. Mm. I always get a bit awkward Katherine. A lot of developments I do developers, not talking about public toilets, but toilets for businesses and things they do it as a cost saving feature to have unisex toilets, but Katherine, what, what's your next project after this? So I'm looking forward to, there's currently a New South Wales parliamentary inquiry that closes in November 2024.
So I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the New South Wales. So I would love to develop a community. Toolkit around public toilets, because I find that a lot of people are for new public toilets, but don't know what to do with it. I also have a sneaky suspicion that there's probably a PhD in this topic. You'll be a doctor. Yeah. Toilet. The Toilet Doctor. Oh yeah. I like the Doctor of Dunnies. That's a good title.
And where can our listeners learn more and is there any message you would like to give to our listeners? Look, I'd love the listeners to think a little bit more about the public toilets that they're using, to identify the great ones that they use and thank the property manager or the cleaners of those that make those public toilets possible. To your local council and point out where you think a new one could be provided.
You can find my Churchill Fellowship Report, on the Winston Churchill website. Or QUT ePrints has my thesis if anybody wants to read, those 50, 000 words. Also, Public toilets anonymous, is my Instagram page where you will see photos of public toilets. I've been taking Terrific Katherine because I've shared some photos that I've took a public toilets in Japan with you, but we'll put all those, on the episode notes for our listeners to look at so they can follow through great topic.
Now we're moving on to Podcast Extraculture Corner, and this is where we ask our guests something they've seen, read, seen, or experienced lately that might be of interest to our listeners. It doesn't have to be on topic. Have you got one for our listeners, Katherine? A book that I really enjoyed reading earlier this year was Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton. It's the tension between different, how different people view what space is for.
Um, I think at the higher level, um, it's a bit of a thriller. I was unable to put it down. And it's set in Aotearoa, New Zealand. So yeah, if anyone wants a good fiction read, I would recommend Burnham Wood by Eleanor Caton. And I can also probably give you a bunch of public toilet related, literature as well. So there's some fun things out there if people want to dip into those as well. Presumably Perfect Days, that Japanese film we mentioned. Yes, most definitely.
I did enjoy seeing it at the cinema. Um, great soundtrack, beautiful visuals, and a beautiful story as well. So perfect days would be a movie recommendation. And Jess, your podcast extra. My podcast extra is, outsourcing generally, my husband's been away for a couple of weeks overseas. So I've been solo parenting and relying heavily on something called the dinner ladies, which is like a food delivery service. They do home prepared meals, which are just like what you would cook at home.
And it's just been an absolute lifesaver. It's been amazing. So I have not had time to read any books, Pete, watch any movies. I've just been getting by really, but he's back now so I'll have something good for the next one. Too good for him, Jess. Oh, sorry. No, Jess. Some might say that. Mine, I've got to just transit maps app, Katherine. It's, it's fantastic.
If you want to get from point A to B public transport, I'm using that to put out a trip, plan out a trip to Japan later this year, but the transit maps app, lots of tons and tons of information about timetables and routes. And the second thing I've recently subscribed to YouTube premium. I've abandoned Netflix, Jess, and there's so much stuff on YouTube, so many, movies, documentaries.
I don't like to plug a big tech company, but, I'm just, I'm just going down lots of rabbit holes, watching lots of documentaries and loving it. So there we have, that's mine. Well, if we're talking apps, I think I need to plug the public toilet map app. Of course. Get on your phone. So you can find a public toilet close to you when you need one. It's on the website, but also you can get an app on your phone as well. So kind of interesting manages that. Is that a government app?
It is funded by the Australian government. Yes. We're really lucky to have it in Australia. Probably tracking your movements. No pun intended, but if this is government inspired Katherine, you've got to be careful. Is there sort of like a group of public toilet enthusiasts or advocates? I think there's an informal collection that I have, connected with across the globe. But you know, we're not a formal group. And I think part of the challenges is that public toilets don't have an owner.
So unlike other forms of infrastructure, we know this landscape architects or urban designers, transport planners, you know, there's a real gap for public toilets. So it just requires on advocates, you know, popping up. I think you should, create that space, Katherine, you'd be great. You can be the world alliance leader and all this stuff. No, you've been a terrific guest Katherine. I've learned an awful lot and I'm sorry about my family joke.
It was a bit, I didn't deliver it that well, but you've been great. I'm looking forward to reading your research and, thank you so much for coming along, Katherine. Thanks Katherine. Thank you, Jess and Peter. And Jess, always great doing podcasts with you and listeners, we've got our 10th anniversary party coming up very soon. We've been, the podcast has been started in 2014 and we've got a party, which is going to be out of control and wild, to make sure Jess behaves herself. Absolutely.
Katherine, if you're in town, you must come. Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks. Cheers. Thanks for listening. If you would like to hear more of our podcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify or the like button on SoundCloud or the subscribe button in Apple podcasts. Please also visit our Instagram page, LinkedIn or website for behind the scenes footage of our podcasts and to get the latest on upcoming or recently released episodes.
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