Weak Starmer’s week of silence on women ruling - podcast episode cover

Weak Starmer’s week of silence on women ruling

Apr 23, 202559 min
--:--
--:--
Listen in podcast apps:
Metacast
Spotify
Youtube
RSS

Summary

Allison Pearson and Liam Halligan discuss Keir Starmer's delayed response to the Supreme Court ruling on biological sex, Kemi Badenoch's critique, and the potential impact of local elections. They also examine the dire economic situation, including government borrowing and trade policies, and consider the implications of a potential US trade deal amidst Brexit realignments. The episode features an exclusive interview with Kemi Badenoch and listener feedback on various topics.

Episode description


This week your co-pilots bring you a podcast exclusive with the Leader of The Opposition, Kemi Badenoch, who gives her take on Prime Minister, Keir Starmer’s, vote of support for last week’s Supreme Court verdict.


Both co-pilots are troubled by the PM’s statement, with co-pilot Pearson adamant he should apologise to the women of Britain.


Co-pilot Halligan also turns his eyes to the upcoming Local Elections on May 1st. Could Reform UK sneak past Labour and the Conservatives for surprise gains?


And there’s no shortage of tax and tariff talk as the economic woes rumble on.


Read more from Liam: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/liam-halligan/ |

Read more from Allison: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/a/ak-ao/allison-pearson/ |

Read Allison: ‘If Starmer had any shame he would have resigned after Supreme Court ruling’: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/22/starmer-championed-dangerous-fantasy-men-called-women/ |

Need help subscribing or reviewing? Learn more about podcasts here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/radio/podcasts/podcast-can-find-best-ones-listen/ |

Email: [email protected] |

For 30 days’ free access to The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/normal |



Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Transcript

Your business is going places with three business. Enjoy business class roaming in EU destinations. Whether you're video calling from Vienna. Networking in Naples. or closing sales from Stockholm. Upgrade to business class roaming in the EU from £2.50 extra a month. Search 3Business today. Additional £2.50 per sim when you buy 20-plus sims on a 24-month plan, excluding 20% VAT. Fair use policy applies in GoRome destinations. Terms apply.

Five. This isn't some minor administrative error that needed clarification. Let's be frank here. This was blatant lying. Do I think free speech in this country is disappearing? I don't think it is disappearing, but I do think it is under threat. As we speak, Keir Starmer's popularity rating, minus 103. I think all eyes are going to be on...

We have lived off. Welcome once again to Planet Normal, the Telegraph podcast with Alison Pearson. Hello. And me, Liam Halligan. Well, it took him almost a week... But Keir Starmer now says that he welcomes the Supreme Court ruling on biological sex defining a woman under equality's law. Last Wednesday's judgment provides real clarity, says our Prime Minister.

Downing Street insists Starmer now does not believe trans women are women, even though he said as much as recently as 2022. So how long has Starmer held this view? In November 2020, five months after winning the Labour leadership, Starmer said Labour stands proudly with the trans community. The following year, he said, we're committed to updating the GRA, that's the Gender Recognition Act, to introduce self-declaration for trans people.

Some months after that, the Labour leader slapped down then Labour MP Rosie Duffield for saying only women have cervixes. It's actually the law he opined that trans women are women. Starmer has yet to apologise to Duffield, still an independent MP, having been hounded out of her own party, or to former Labour donor J.K. Rowling or Helen Joyce, Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock.

Just a few among countless women who've endured enormous personal abuse sticking up for female-only spaces. Nor has he apologized to countless ordinary people who've lost their jobs and livelihoods. Due to this identity politics madness whipped up and inserted deep into mainstream politics, above all by Labour.

Tory leader Kemi Badenoch has helped to move the needle regarding this debate while in government. She attacks Starmer for his trans stance at Prime Minister's questions. We'll be talking to her later in this episode. The Tories also want to scrap the recording of those pesky non-crime hate incidents by police forces in England and Wales, Alison. Since 2014, the police have recorded over 133,000 NCHIs. Badenock says NCHIs have wasted police time chasing ideology and grievance instead of justice.

so let's see if she can get the law amended. Lots more going on, Alison. Donald Trump's ongoing tariff policies are continuing to rock the world economy, while the UK government borrowing massively overshot during the year to March. But first, let's discuss Starmer's response to the Supreme Court and the Tory leader's performance at Prime Minister's questions. Well, it's all very interesting, Halligan, but before we plunge...

into that fascinating topic. Morass. I know you've been looking for more international work and there is now a vacancy at the Vatican. So I was thinking, why not really? It's time we had another Irishman in there. You'd look amazing in the robes. How do you fancy your chances? Well, actually, I'm very much brought up in the Irish Catholic faith. My mother's actually...

Protestant, believe it or not. So I'd be too much of a mixed breed, as they say, to be allowed to run for the Pope. I mean, they'd ask, is the Pope Catholic? Well, in this case... Not really. I don't think I'm giving too much of a spoiler with the recent, actually rather good movie of Robert Harris's book about papal election, which we're just about to come into. It's called Conclave.

And they end up choosing. I think it's a South American pope who turns out to be between two sexes, shall we say, Liam. So highly topical. Let's see. Do you see that subtle? The segue there. I don't know how you did that. I mean, clearly, you've been working on that one all morning, Alison. I have, I have, I have. So one of the big stories of the week, really, we just last week on Planet Normal, we'd just got the Supreme Court ruling.

which we both welcomed, obviously. The shocking news that a woman turns out to be someone who was born female at birth. Hallelujah. And then the follow up, as you said, Liam, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, have been extremely slow to comment. on this landmark ruling, because as you outlined, he has a lot of form in this area, not least slapping down the excellence.

Rosie Duffield when she was Labour MP for Canterbury, brave enough to say that only women have a cervix. And Starmer asked by Andrew Moore, is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Keir Starmer replied in his best constipated manner, it is something that shouldn't be said. It is not right. So there was the leader of one of our two major political parties brazenly denying biological science and making it much, much harder.

for women, not just all the notable women who were furiously campaigning for female spaces and for young girls and not to be told that they were born in the wrong body and to step forward. for mutilation. And I really think that we should have seen Starmer today. It's Wednesday. We've had earlier just had Prime Minister's questions. I think he should have apologised to Rosie Duffield in Parliament. He should have said...

I was wrong and you were right. He should also have apologised to all of those women who have been sacked. introduced for just basically stating, in fact, Rosie Duffield stated what the Supreme Court has just said, which Starmer apparently, as you said, he welcomed it. Did he? Right. So it was very narrow legalistic stuff he came out with. The Supreme Court has given much needed clarity.

on the legal definition of women in equalities law. It's real clarity in an area where we did need clarity. No, we didn't. Any sensible person knew exactly what women were and what men were. And no, 99. 0.9% of women didn't have a penis or whatever nonsense formulation you came up with to appease the aggressive trans progressive.

glamorous mob in your party so well I would say Liam and I wrote an absolutely blazing column on the back of it really I've been really incandescent and I know that lots of the prominent women much more prominent than me in this area I was going to call it a debate there shouldn't really ever have been a debate should it really it was absolutely monstrous And people like Suzanne Moore saying the women are just angry. They're not even jubilant. They're just angry that it was.

ever necessary. And so when Starmer says, oh, much needed clarity, this isn't some minor administrative error that needed clarification. Let's be frank here. This was blatant lying. about observable scientific truth. While he was damning the heroines, people like women like Sharon Davis, who we've had on Planet Normal, Helen Joyce.

JK Rowling, Maya Forstater, all the women that you name-checked at the top, Liam. And they bravely stood by the fact... and refused to accept that woman was something you could just put on like a coat. whenever you fancied. And before I hand back to you just to say, I think, despite the ruling, we can already see that many in our political class and our institutions are not going to accept. this ruling. We've had a plot. revealed by ministers, including Chris Bryant. Angela Eagle who are already

clearly hoping to weasel round the ruling and the Liberal Democrats, of course. You'll remember Ed Davey saying brilliantly at the... magnificent mind that is ed davy saying women quite clearly clearly quite clearly quite clearly they can if you saw him on that hobby horse Running around the obstacle course.

You think, yeah, there goes a big girl's blouse. Gladstone, Lloyd George. Ed Davey. Ed Davey. But the Liberal Democrats, I noticed today, are already talking about the... tricky intersection between the Equalities Act. and the Gender Recognition Act. So I, Liam, foresee a pitched battle over the years ahead with hundreds of individual cases where women are simply going to have to challenge.

the presence of biological men in their spaces. But I would say at least the law is now on women's side. It is indeed. But, you know, so much of the country will be looking on at this madness. And thinking, crikey, you know, the economy is on the skids. Crikey, Labour's trying to reform. The beached whale that is our welfare state. You know, crikey, there aren't enough police on the streets and burglaries.

it isn't even enough to get a copper to come round and check that the household's all right. And we're waiting for, you know, 12 hours in A&E. And the political and media class is wanging on and on and on about this subject. And as you rightly say, Alison, it will not end. It will not end. Within moments of the Supreme Court verdict, you had, didn't you, WhatsApp groups with ministers of government deliberately trying to undo that Supreme Court verdict.

judgment and it's not just you know the high profile campaigners that we mentioned at the top that have suffered huge personal abuse though of course Think of all the families that have been cast asunder, the rows that this has caused between generations as mainstream politicians. have encouraged and chivied and almost required people to adopt beliefs that are quite clearly completely mad. That's where we are. But it's an issue that has...

It's almost a primitive hold, isn't it? It feels like witchcraft, really. It feels like going back to the days of ducking stools. And it's very, very troubling. I mean, I have no time, as you may have noticed, for our prime minister. Absolutely cannot abide now because this is a flaming hypocrite. to know that he has to adjust his position, doesn't he? He can't really go on saying, well, it's not right to say that only women can have a cervix, although if he thought he could get away with it.

That's what he'd be saying. Make no mistake. He was deeply uncomfortable in the Commons today with Kemi Badenoch, quite rightly throwing allegations at him, throwing words at her. come out of his own mouth. So he has done an absolute screeching U-turn. And the only reason he's done it, apart from the fact that it's a huge embarrassment that... the Supreme Court has found so decisively.

against him but it really is now that next week liam we have next thursday a week from when planet normal goes out will be the local elections in England and Wales. And as we speak, Keir Starmer's popularity rating, minus 103. He's gone from being mistrusted to widely loathed. I mean, I really think that it's going to be incredibly interesting. Local elections, they always sound a bit sort of small beer, don't they? But in fact, Liam, you know, is a keen watcher.

of these things, that they can be extraordinarily decisive in politics. And I was looking up actually earlier today. In May 2019, that was the 3rd of May 2019, Theresa May was under pressure to quit as prime minister because the Tories lost more than 1,300 seats in those local elections. And you'll remember, Liam, that was the time of the Brexit. And it was the Tories' worst local election performance in 24 years. And on the 24th of May, 21 days later, Theresa May quit.

as the Tory leader. So you can see how influential next Thursday could be. It's 1,641 council seats. Across 24 local authorities are going to be contested. All of the seats on 14 county councils, six mayoral elections, including new ones in Greater Lincolnshire, Hull and East Yorkshire. And of course... the Runcorn and Helsby by-election, which was created, which actually became vacant after the sitting Labour MP, Mike Amesbury, got into a very unpleasant fight.

and was arrested and miraculously, some might say, was given a 10-week suspended sentence for physical. violence in contrast with some of those arrested around the Southport riots. So some of the elections which were scheduled won't take place because there are these various reorganisations. So just a few of the seats. won't take place in 2025 but I think it could be potentially a really pivotal day. What do you think?

I think it could be. I think all eyes are going to be on reform. Nigel Farage's upstart party. Of course, they got five MPs. back in the July general election, but they got those five MPs on 14% of the vote. And since they got 14% of the vote, the Lib Dems got 11% of the vote. They got 71 MPs. That's the way our weird system works. But since Farage's party secured 14% of the vote back in July, they've been regularly polling way above 20%, sometimes as high as 30% in opinion polls.

placing them first actually and Farage himself has been the favorite to be the next UK prime minister after Starmer for some months on the main betting sites. And these are betting sites, not where the house sets the odds. These are betting sites where the weight of money in the markets sets the odds. So very, very significant. And I do think it's a testing time, not just for Keir Starmer, but also for Tory leader. Kemi Beidnok because

She is going to be under a lot of pressure from some of her own MPs who've been less than I wouldn't say they've been openly rebellious, but they've been certainly lukewarm in their support for her. I think a lot of. Conservatives in the country think there have been flashes of caliber from her when she speaks her mind, when she shoots.

From the hip, she shows a lot of the kind of tendencies and instincts that I think a lot of Conservative voters want to see in their leader. But I think it's fair to say she's had a lot of trouble breaking through. There's a sort of minor miracle. The Tories are almost arithmetically predetermined to... sustained some big losses at these local elections because of their record last time but i wonder what you thought copilot about how she did at

Prime Minister's questions, she decided to go on the Supreme Court verdict. She's sometimes a bit reluctant to talk about identity politics issues, of course, but she did play quite a big role when in government. in this debate, certainly the Cass review and so on. Do you think she really broke through Prime Minister's questions on Wednesday afternoon?

I thought she did well. I thought she did even better the day before when she was up against Bridget Phillipson. And it was like watching a great batsman at the crease, really. It was like watching Garfield Sobers or someone, you know. This is her terrain. She's made this her own subject. Unlike almost any other politician from any other party, indeed her own party notably, she has been very, very brave and eloquent.

about women and look we can forget she's an engineer she's got a rational scientific brain she's also a lawyer she's also a trained lawyer yes so she's got that combination hasn't she and i think she cannot abide the nonsense, the absolute nonsense to which hundreds of these ridiculous people have signed up. And Bridget Philipson was at her sort of purse slip.

worst really and she had no answer to it so kemi was absolutely brilliant and when she's on a role like that you could see her side were you know the mps behind her were cheering her on and they knew they had right on their side so it was fantastic she did well at pmqs undoubtedly did well I'd still like to see a bit more attack. You know, she was opposite this man who has played an extremely dubious role on this subject. And she did say, are you going to apologise to Rosie Duffield?

I'd like to have seen a little bit more anger. Would you like to apologise to the women of Britain, Prime Minister? Because I think the vast majority of normal, sensible opinion would be with her. But I do think, Liam, that... Next Thursday could be tricky, not just for Kemi, because Starmer was taunting her about where is Robert Jenrick, where is your Justice Secretary, because Jenrick's been making a strong showing, hasn't he? Who she be, of course, in the leadership.

election last autumn but who most people will assume is on manoeuvres pretty much permanently to undermine her You could argue either that he's doing a very good job as first lieutenant or he'd like the crown. So it's not just her, though, is it? Because Starmer has been performing.

in the polls, certainly really badly. Remember, this is still quite a young government and they are flailing around, not just, I mean, we'll come on to this in a minute, but the economic news is dire, absolutely dire. How much did they borrow last month? It's just something absolutely crazy, wasn't it? They borrowed 17 billion quid in one month. I mean, when you raise the basic rate of income tax by one P you raise 7 billion. So in one month they borrowed more.

than the revenue you'd get from raising the basic rate of income tax by 2p over a whole year. It's a huge amount of money. And that $151.9 billion they borrowed during the year to March. That was far more than the 137 billion the OBR forecast it would be at the time of the last budget. She can no longer claim this is the black hole, can she? This money is quite clearly...

going on salaries that she's decided to increase in the public sector and on public spending, isn't it now? There's no hiding. It is. And also revenues are suffering. Because tax rates are going up. I keep saying this and it strikes me that. That reality, the reality of the Laffer curve, never manages to inject itself into the national debate on these issues.

Certainly not the primary colours ways the debate's conducted among so many of our broadcasters. Oh, there's a black hole in the budget, so you must raise tax revenue. But if you raise tax rates, you often get a much slower growing economy. So you get less tax revenue overall. And clearly what's happened is.

Rates have been raised on so-called non-domiciled individuals, wealthy individuals who are based abroad under many headings. A lot of those have left the UK completely, taken their millions and their investment. and their companies with them. That's led to lower tax revenue. You've got this increase in employer national insurance, which has only just come in at the beginning of this month. But of course, the specter of it's been with us since last October when it was announced.

That's led to a big slowdown in hiring, which of course has led to less national insurance. contributions overall so this really is a problem now and i think that rachel reeves is going to have a big decision to make in July when she does her spending review, because she won't be able to give her party activists and the backbenchers the big spending rises that they want. And she's going to have to take some really painful measures.

in her next full budget, which is scheduled for this autumn, if indeed she survives. how long the Chancellor can survive for. Starmer will know in his bones that if you get rid of your Chancellor it will cause an absolutely huge political earthquake. There's so many precedents for prime ministers and chancellors falling out and it never ends.

well but in the end he's gonna have to blame someone for the lack of spending rises and for the tax rises, which I think Labour will inevitably reach for this autumn. faced with budget weakness because they haven't got it in them. They haven't got the kind of intellectual grit, determination or instinct to think, oh, my God, the economy's slowed down, stalled from recession.

We need to cut taxes. We need to make it easier for businesses to do their thing. We need to make it easier for firms to take on employees in order to get this economy moving. Labour just doesn't have that in its intellectual policy armoury, in my view. So I think they're going to continue to compound. this situation and drive the economy ever more into a proper slowdown. If Labour does as badly next Thursday as I am convinced they will. I think it will be absolutely catastrophic for them.

Just about hang on in Runcorn because reform's got a huge margin. to make up there. If reform takes it, that will be seismic. But if they lose as many seats as I think they're going to lose, and I honestly cannot remember the prime minister being as unpopular at this stage in the electoral cycle as Starmer. So if they lose, the jackals will start circling for Starmer and it may well be that Rachel Reeves...

is the bone he throws them. As you say, he's going to have to blame someone, isn't he? And if it isn't him, will he make it to the Labour conference in the autumn? Probably, but I would not rule out now a leadership challenge at some point because I do think it's getting that bad. Can I ask you, Liam, what would it take? for things to be so bad economically that we start seeing some emergency external measures? I mean, is it getting that bad, do you think? I don't think we're there yet.

A lot of commentators have been buoyed by the latest IMF. I'll just forecast, of course. which while they've lowered the UK's growth outlook, they've suggested that the UK will grow faster than most other G7 economies over the next couple of years. That's slim pickings, though, because the numbers are... I don't think we're yet in a panic. I think a lot of financial markets are watching and waiting to see how this tariff situation is resolved. I think they're watching and waiting to see it.

is going to bully, cower the Federal Reserve, the US Central Bank, into lowering interest rates. Trump definitely wants them to do so. He's openly chiding Jerome Powell, the Federal Reserve boss, who, of course, Trump appointed. During his first term, that's a pretty unusual thing to do for a government to openly criticize an independent central banker. But if the Federal Reserve does lower rates, whether.

Powell and his committee wants to anyway, or whether they come under pressure and yield to that pressure from Trump, that will set the tone for global interest rates, certainly UK interest rates. I'm not sure how many UK interest rate cuts there are going to be. A lot of people are still forecasting three or four by the end of this year. I'm not sure that's the case, given that inflation in the UK. OK, it's two point six at the moment, but even the Bank of England forecast is going to go up to.

three and a half almost four percent by the end of this year because of energy prices and many other supply chain issues so i think the uk economy is on a knife edge but Every time borrowing numbers come out that show the government is fiscally even more in a hole, that is going to push up borrowing costs for government and that's going to make it harder for Labour.

to pull the usual levers that they always pull when the economy is in trouble to just borrow more and spend more. We are reaching the point where the government is hard up against the limits of what it can borrow. responsibly but what it can borrow for a reasonable level of interest payment interest payments are now you know getting very very high they're well above 100 billion pounds

a year, which is more than we spend on education. That's on our debt. Yeah, that's on just servicing the debt that the government holds, not paying it back, just servicing. And so much of the debt service that we're paying, we're actually funding out of borrowing more, which is the definition of, you know, a pyramid scheme, a sort of Ponzi scheme.

about the UK government's fiscal position. But, you know, there are concerns about debt across the Western world. It's like an ugly baby contest. I think what happens with terrorists will play a key role. And of course... The whole world has been massively criticizing Donald Trump. The only sort of socially acceptable thing for any economist to say is that, oh, of course, he's completely mad. I've been writing quite a bit lately saying he may not be mad.

You know, certainly his methods are incredibly unorthodox and alarming. And the language he uses is obviously almost unheard of in policymaking and diplomatic circles. And yet, if he can get one or two big economies to agree to bilateral trade deals, whether tariff barriers between the two countries are lower than they previously were before his tariff.

then it may be that the whole mood changes and suddenly the world wants a lot less protectionism rather than accusing Trump of trying to instigate a lot more. And I've said that I think the first.

deal could easily be with the uk because it should be an easy trade deal to strike it's generally quite balanced trade there are gains to be made on both sides and of course there's enormous cultural affinity between the uk and the us and it is our biggest single country trading partner it is almost a fifth of our trade

So I think the only thing that could stop a trade deal between the UK and the US at this point, because I think the White House really wants it to prove that there's some method in Trump's madness. to try and change the mood music to encourage the indians the japanese the south korean and so on. Other countries that he has slapped really high tariffs on or threatened to slap really high tariffs on encourage them to come to the negotiation table and to do bilateral.

trade deals if he can get that deal with the uk then i think the way the world looks at this trade chaos could change, financial market outlook could change. But it strikes me that Starmer could yet scupper this trade deal because he seems determined to get closer to the European Union at exactly the moment that will scupper. the prospect of a trade deal with the US. He seems absolutely transfixed with this idea of aligning.

EU regulation with UK regulation. It just strikes me as a triumph of ideology at this point over common sense. That's him to a T, Liam, isn't it? He's an ideological creature, really. I don't think he can think. in the bigger picture or for British interest, really. I think he thinks as a socialist, and as you say, cozying up to the EU at this time doesn't make any sense. I mean, obviously my economic skills are now second to none, but I can't help.

thinking that in my gut, I do wonder, looking at the state of our industry, our manufacturing base, they've just about come in to try and save the Scunsorpe steelworks they've thrown Portal, but in my part of the world under the bus. My instincts are telling me that the people would be on for a bit more protectionism. I don't even know what you'd call it, Liam, but, you know, haven't we sacrificed?

our own manufacturing cars and raw materials and so on to an absolutely kamikaze degree, really. And I did this morning. It's Wednesday, as we said. listening to Nigel Farage on the Today programme really strongly. Mounting a defence now of his anti-net zero target, no longer saying it vaguely apologetically. He now, Farage is now... Absolutely saying this is an insane course of action. It won't make any difference.

to protect our own people, our own energy prices. You know, we had something earlier today about car manufacturers starting to say they can't manufacture cars. in the UK, with the costs of energy being what they are. So I think that's interesting. We've also seen Kemi, they're not doing the same thing, haven't we? Something that's happening now, I think, is that...

Instead of apologising to the BBC, you're absolutely convinced that global warming is going to sort of burn us all to a crisp by July. It's a very different tone now in that debate, isn't it, Liam? There certainly is, Alison. I think since Kelly Badenow gave that speech on Net Zero less than a month ago, actually, I do think the mood music has changed. I do think the weather has changed on that issue.

Trade unions also really putting Labour under enormous pressure when it comes to their net zero policies. You know, the GMB. the third biggest union in this country. They are very heavily represented among those North Sea oil workers who are losing their jobs with labour. drilling ban places like grangemouth refineries that are being shut down a lot of our energy complex now

is under threat. And of course, companies and households in this country are paying three to four times more for their energy than their American counterparts. And that really undermines the competitiveness of our economy and living standards. You know, we talked about Starmer maybe having to jettison his chancellor. It strikes me that before that. could get rid of Ed Miliband.

Hi, we're Backmarket, the home of high-quality, affordable, refurbished tech. Like this laptop. It can binge 18 episodes in one weekend. That is normal, right? This laptop can also write, game, design, browse, private... and do everything a brand new laptop can. There's just one different... It costs up to 50% less because it's not new, it's verified refurbished, meaning it's been inspected by industry experts and comes with a year's warranty. Downgrade now. Backmarket.

This week's Planet Normal guest is Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch. Elected as MP for Saffron Walden in 2017, having previously been a member of the London Assembly, she quickly rose through her party's ranks. serving as Secretary of State for Trade, Minister for Women and also Business Secretary. Chosen to lead her party last October, after last summer's general election defeat, Baden-Ock became the sixth Tory leader in eight years.

Since then, Kemi Badenoch's been determined not to rush out new opposition policies, although she has lately made major statements on gender ahead of the Supreme Court's judgment and also net zero. Describing the 2050 carbon emission goals, goals her own party set as simply impossible. Welcome again, Kemi Badenock back to Planet Normal. Alison started by asking her whether Keir Starmer should apologise to Rosie Duffield in light of the Supreme Court verdict.

kemi badenok welcome once again to the rocket of right thinking planet normal kemi we've just had this landmark supreme court ruling that a woman is born female at birth I know that you personally came under great attack during the bruising battle for women's spaces. Keir Starmer slapped down. his then MP Rosie Duffield, for saying only women can have a cervix. He said it wasn't right to say that.

What do you think now about the man who is Prime Minister denying biological truth in that way? And should he have apologised to Rosie Duffield? I think he absolutely should have apologized to Rosie Duffield. I was actually shocked. that he did not, because she was hounded out of the party for saying what he now accepts to be true.

And I think he got an insight into the character of the man who is Keir Starmer. And that is that he does not believe that he is ever wrong, does not believe that he needs to apologize. And he pays lip service to things like women's rights. But the way he treats the women in his party shows that it's just for political expediency. He could not bring himself to even acknowledge that he had done anything wrong.

And what was most surprising to me was them pretending that they had held this position all along. That's what the education secretary did yesterday. If she had come in and said... Well, now that the Supreme Court has made this decision, we're going to change our policy. We recognize this is where the public are.

you know, we're moving on, it would have been a lot harder for me to respond to them. But because they said, oh, we were here all along. It was you guys' hordes. It's just extraordinary. I mean, if it hadn't been that I was the person who received all the abuse that they put out.

I would probably have checked my notes and thought, oh, were we on the wrong side of this? So blatant was the dishonesty. But I'm glad that we got the measure of them. Kemi, do you think the Tory party needs to learn lessons here? Two, clearly the country got itself into this position where trans ideology seemed to grip. our mainstream political and media class very tightly while you were in government, Minister for Women in particular.

You did a lot to move the needle. I think a lot of people recognise that. You initiated the cash review, which was pivotal. But what lessons do you think your party also needs to learn for the role that it plays? in getting us into the crazy position where we need a Supreme Court and an 84-page judgment to tell us what a woman is. There are a lot of lessons for my party to learn, a lot of lessons. And, you know, I became an MPA in 2017. And by the time I got in...

this ideology had sort of taken root. It wasn't something that many people talked about. You know, it's all very well Labour saying you have 14 years, but 14 years ago, no one was really talking about this. And it's not something that just happened in the UK. All over the Western world, we saw this extremist ideology take root. It's actually an international thing. And one of the lessons that my party, I think, has now learned is that...

Sometimes, just because everybody agrees on something doesn't mean it's right. You have to pay attention to things that don't look like big issues. And this stuff was allowed to seed for a very long time because many people thought, well, you know, we don't talk about this. We talk about the economy. Just ignore it. This is a niche issue.

And also believing that this was how you showed support for people who were LGBT. But actually, if you want to show support for a particular group, you need to start from... first principles. What is it that we're defending? It's freedom, freedom to live your life as you wish, but that also means that your freedom stops where other people's freedoms begin. And by not looking at the principles and just going along with what many people have been saying initially, we ended up just allowing...

extreme activists to take root. So another lesson for instance is All of these external organizations that want to help get guidance, Stonewall being the classic example, they have no business beaming government. We have to watch out for the left smuggling itself. into institutions. So we've learned a lot of lessons from that.

What I found when I became a qualities minister was that there was quite a lot of support on the conservative benches. It wasn't just me who got things done. Sajid Javid was really excellent on the Cass Review. He had great health centers like Vicky Atkins and Steve Barkley. But by then, the blob had taken over. The obstruction that we had, not from all the civil servants, there were some great ones.

who are even helping. But some people just trying to stop us meeting people like Kiera Bell, not discussing the issue. You need the strength of your conviction. That's the bottom line. This is a two-part question, Kemi. We saw JD Vance at the Munich Security Conference raising concerns. about the decline of free speech across Europe.

singling out the UK. I wonder if you share his concerns and think that a Starmer government has been a threat to free speech and then coming on to this very welcome announcement from the Conservatives. plans to scrap the non-crime hate incidents, the bane of life at Pearson Towers, I have to add. We've talked about putting forward an amendment to the government.

crime and policing bill, banning non-crime hate incidents, except where a senior officer thinks the information would assist in the detection or prevention of a future. Crime. I do think that's a great step forward. So thank you for that. But I am a bit concerned about that wiggle room. Why not ban NCHIs altogether?

It's all part of investigation. What happened to you, Alison, let me very clear, was wrong. This is a classic example of the police wasting time. We discovered through research that 60,000 hours of police time are wasted on these issues. And it's not just people, you know, looking at what's going on on social media and not liking someone's post. Things like mobility scooters on pavements, that's not what the police are there for.

And we need to make sure that the police are out there catching criminals. And, you know, you asked the question about J.D. Vance and do I can free speech in this country is disappearing. I don't think it is disappearing, but I do think it is under threat. I don't think Labour understands. the importance of free speech, how it is a core British value.

I lived in a country that didn't have free speech. The government would quite happily disappear people. When I lived under a military government, it'd just disappear and no one would ever see them again. So that's not where we are. But when you look at some of the rhetoric... that we hear from Labour MPs, a lot of authoritarian stuff. We have Labour MPs talking about blasphemy laws. That's not free speech. They haven't brought it in yet.

But we need to be very vigilant that we do not allow the erosion of core principles like freedom of speech in the UK. a month ago kemi you gave a speech on net zero it was quite a brave speech You said that meeting our 2050 net zero targets was, quote, simply impossible. Quite a lot of people criticise you for that speech, but it went down pretty well with the public. And some people would say you actually moved the needle.

on that speech are you pleased with the response it had and when you're going to make your next policy speech of similar importance. So, yes, I am pleased with the response to my net zero speech and more will come on net zero. The bottom line is that. The net zero plans we have are an impossibility. We can't do net zero by 2050 the way the government's doing it, or even the way the previous governments had looked at the issue.

We cannot bankrupt our country. We cannot de-industrialize and send all of production and manufacturing to China. You look at what's happening with British Steel, for example. You look at what's happening with trade tariffs across the board. We are de-industrializing. Energy costs are too high. Household bills are going up. We need to make sure we look after the people of this country first.

And we do need to look after our environments. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying climate change isn't real. Well, you solve these things in sensible ways. not by trying to reduce emissions to net zero when China's building the coal-fired power station every other week. We can't do it on our own. Britain is only responsible for 1% of emissions.

So how do we do it? With sensible policies, things that people will be able to do themselves without being impoverished. That's what we're about now. And you asked about when the next commission will come. Yes, there will be more. I talked about doing more on integration. You know, Alison talked about these non-crime hate incidents. There's so many things that are interrelated. The amount of immigration that's coming to our country, how we make sure the people who are here.

belong in this country, want to contribute to it, are not taking anything away. how we make sure that we preserve our values, how we deal with the lack of social cohesion in the UK. Government talks about these things all the time, but I don't actually think it has solved them. I definitely don't think Labour has any ideas. how to go about solving these things. If anything, they pander to all sorts of sectarian and community groups when they should be more...

more visceral in objecting to some of the alien values that are coming to our country. I've been very involved in the case of Lucy Connolly, childminder, wife of a Tory councillor. who was jailed for 31 months for a very offensive tweet she posted in the heat of the moment on the day of the Southport Massacre of Little Girls.

Lucy had lost her own child in harrowing circumstances and was extremely easily... triggered by the death and suffering of other children I was grateful Kemi to see you speak out on Lucy's case do you have concerns about two-tier justice in the surrounding Southport and in general? And what do you make of the fact that probation officers are telling Lucy just in the last few days? But they've never seen anyone so clearly meriting leave at home being denied it.

Well, I think this is, I do have a concern about two-tier justice, especially when we see Labour releasing prisoners. in the way that they have, something we never did. They're releasing prisoners, some of whom went on to commit murder on the day that they were released. The idea that Lucy Connelly is somebody who can't even get... temporarily leave to go home and see her children. That's what really bothers me.

that we may inadvertently start giving the impression that the government has certain types of crimes that it wants to punish in a particular way rather than what the law says. Everyone should be treated equally and fairly. And I do think that she will, I think my understanding is that there is an appeal.

uh going on i do think that you should have feel i don't condone what she wrote i think it's really important that i don't condone what she wrote but In the grand scheme of things that we are seeing, just last weekend, we saw these extreme trans activists deflate statues. You know, demand that J.K. Rowling be killed and the women be hung. You know, where's the crackdown on those guys? Labour's silence on that issue.

Ahead of the local elections, Kemi, are you surprised that in quite a few opinion polls now, reform are ahead not just of the Tories, but the Labour Party too? No, I'm not surprised because... Labour's doing a terrible job. They broke promises. They made promises to get elected, said that they would freeze council tax.

They haven't done that. They said that they weren't going to put taxes on working people. They snatched away winter fuel payments. What is extraordinary is that a government that should be in its honeymoon period, it's only nine months, that they've been in government, is already polling so low. And I'm not surprised that people are going to protest parties because we just got kicked out of government last year. It's going to be a real challenge to earn the public's trust.

It took 14, 13 and 18 years respectively for oppositions to come back into government over the last sort of 30 years. We're not going to do it in five and a half months. So people will go to protest parties at this stage in the electoral cycle. What I need to do is make sure that I have a compelling conservative offer, one that is authentic.

that people recognize as being the conservatism that they want to see in this country. And I remember campaigning recently and a man told me that once upon a time, if somebody knocked on your door... with a blue rosette who knew what they were selling. And now it's hard to know what it is that we're selling. And that's my job now, that people understand what conservatism for 2025 and beyond is about. Earlier in the podcast, Kemi, Liam was talking about the way that...

Starmer needs to be really focusing on getting this US trade deal, but is ideologically tacking towards the EU. We're seeing some watering down of Brexit going on at the moment, some realignment. If you were Prime Minister, would you be reversing any of these anti-Brexit measures? And where do you think he needs to be looking now for Britain's future? The fact is, Alison, and as both of you well know, the public voted to leave the European Union.

There's no point to us leaving if we're still going to be rule takers. That means that we get the worst of both worlds. We don't get the benefits and we still get some of the disadvantages. So anything that... the cuts across that we oppose. I haven't seen exactly what the prime minister is doing. I think he is completely at sea. They should be focused on getting a UK-US trade deal.

Because we got quite away negotiating with President Trump until President Biden just scrapped all free trade agreement negotiations. What Starmer needs to do now is to pick up where we left off. and make sure that the trade deal we get is in us giving concessions away to have what we had last month before the tariffs. We need to have new things that are of mutual benefit to both countries.

But I worry because Labour can't negotiate. You look at what they did with the Checos Islands. They lost this AstraZeneca deal, hundreds of millions of pounds, which we had negotiated. What they're doing now on trade with the EU. It's just it just feels like a mess. They don't have a strategy. You know, look at the negotiation with British Steel. They've made a mess of that. Now we're talking about nationalization. We have a business secretary, a trade secretary who has never, ever.

worked in the private sector. Our business sector has never worked for or in a business. He couldn't even find his solicitors regulations. That does not give me any confidence at all. You, of course, were Trade Secretary, Kemi. You negotiated with a number of US states. sort of trade memorandums of understanding kind of junior trade deals so you do have a lot of experience in this area

Do you think there could be some method in Trump's madness? He's being almost universally panned by economists for his approach to trade policy. Is there at least a chance that his shock and awe tactics... could ultimately lead to less protectionism rather than more. I would be surprised if he gets that result. I think that he's trying to negotiate the way he does, you know, real estate deals where you play hardball and eventually people have to, you know, really low bar their offer.

But as Raiden said, when you have these tariff wars, all that happens is that everybody starts slapping tariffs on everything else. I think the method to the madness, as you described, is that this is an economic nationalism. This is a man who is very much about U.S. interests. I don't care what's happening anywhere else. I care about my country first. And while I understand that, I don't think this strategy is actually going to work. Of course, we all want our countries to succeed.

But the UK is a trading nation. We got wealthy from trading. So we can't do what he's doing. It will cause us problems. Just look at what's happening with car manufacturing, where Jaguar Land Rover has paused its exports. But this is where we need... smart negotiators working for Labour. Instead, Labour's got rid of our most experienced trade negotiator, Corford Faulkner, and they got the unions in. They're not going to negotiate anything sensible.

Kemi, you've had some criticism for not being the fiery Kemi that some people thought they were getting at Prime Minister's questions. I was wondering on a personal note... how that sort of arena, that great cauldron of Parliament, what it's like to do it as the leader of the opposition, and what sort of effect it's had on you and the family. Do you ever have moments where you wake up and think, God, why have I got this job?

No, no. I knew what I was getting myself into, Alison. And it is a very difficult job. People say it's the most difficult job in politics. But I do enjoy it because for once I have a chance to shape conservatism in a way that I believe is right for our country without having to make compromises with the left. in a way that's actually damaged us. And you asked what it's like being in the arena. It's very different from what you see on television. So I have a challenge in terms of...

doing what works in the chamber and what works on TV. When you're watching it on TV, what you don't see is that there are actually very few conservatives. And you've got about 500 left-wing MPs. Remember, the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, they're all there, well to the left of Labour. And they're all screaming and shouting. So you hear me quite well because I've got a microphone and the TV picks it up. But in the room, it's actually very hard to be heard.

So I'm making an effort to also work the chamber and ensure that my backbenchers can hear me. and while also looking calm. So when people say that, oh, they're not seeing the same Kenny that they used to, they forget that I was on the government side then, and I always had the last word. But there are also things that you learn the more you do it. I've never been leader of the opposition before. So you don't just it's not the same as being an MP or even being a secretary of state.

So they're things that you have to do differently. So every week I'm getting the experience in that means that I know what's working. I know what lands well, what doesn't land well. And what people see with politicians is in a way that you don't do with any other job. You get to watch us as we're learning on the job. And every week, I believe I become a better leader of the opposition. And I've learned the PMQs.

is not a court. I was trying to prosecute the prime minister with lots of deep analysis and stats. And actually, it's more like Panto, sadly. It's more like kind of people going, oh, and they said this and they said that. You have to cater for the two audiences, the people who are just watching because they want to show and the people who want to know what's going on in the country and the people who want you to speak.

on their behalf. And those are the people that I care about. The people who have problems, who don't think that Labour is serving them, and they want to know that someone is in Parliament speaking for them. And that's really what my job is. What do the kids think of Mum at the moment? They don't see it.

They didn't say it. They're just annoyed that I'm always going away. So they had to go on Easter holidays without me. They went away without me because I'm campaigning for the local elections. But I think it'll be worth it everywhere I've been going. and telling people that this is not an opinion poll. You know, you may want to just express an opinion, but you have to live with what you vote for. Look at Birmingham.

Some people decided not to go out and vote and then they got rubbish on the streets and rats running around. You know, vote Conservative because we deliver better services and lower taxes. That's the message. Kemi Badenow, thanks for appearing once again. On Planet Normal. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Now on to our listener emails. Your message is sent to planetnormal at telegraph.co.uk. Please keep it coming. We learn so much from you, the citizens of Planet Normal.

Sarah commenting on the Starmer trans thing about the Supreme Court ruling says, very well said, Alison, but sadly, I'm not holding my breath. I work for an arm's length government organisation who, since the ruling, have been offering support to all the trans colleagues affected. and are seeking clarification from the government. Not a good sign. And here's a lovely one from Pauline. This will make you laugh, co-pilot.

Pauline says, on the 26th of February, I commented on a post on Facebook saying that I loved my mum's homemade faggots. And the post was immediately removed by AI. It said it goes against their community standards on hateful conduct. I then wrote another post, says Pauline, with a link to Mr Brain's faggot.

trying to explain that it wasn't hate speech, but a popular British food, which we grew up and was enjoyed by many. Facebook didn't like that either and restricted my account for one month. And I was unable to post in any of the groups I'm a member of. On the 28th of February, I appealed to the oversight board and I'm still waiting to hear back from them. I understand that AI makes all the decisions on Facebook. Also, the vast majority of them on the Oversight Board's appeals.

Although when humans are involved, they come to the same conclusions due to lack of understanding of the cultures of different nations. Well, Pauline, that's a shame, isn't it? How many of the foods from our childhoods Halligan would have? unfortunate connotations that can't be posted about. Nothing wrong with meatballs made from offal. Basically what faggots are, aren't they? Bit of spam, bit of tripe. Absolutely. Bit of bread and dripping.

Alison's excellent piece on two-tier policing was rightly heavy on criticism of two-tier care, says Mike, but didn't mention that the chair of the committee who wrote the report is a Tory MP, Dame Karen Bradley. And in other news, another parliamentary committee chaired by another Tory, Caroline Dynage MP, they want a Netflix tax to protect domestic production.

So the idea that the Conservatives want a smaller state, less state interference in markets, fewer and lower taxes, has seemingly not quite sunk in with the rank and file Tory MPs. This indicates that despite what Kemi might say, many of the rank and file Tories have not changed their spots. And we must remember that all this nonsense developed while they were in charge. Kind regards, Mike. And this is Denise, a Planet Normal superfan self-confessed. Lord Hodge is my new favourite person.

says Denise. Brackets, Alison and Liam accepted, of course. Lord Hodge was, of course, the Supreme Court judge who... delivered the unanimous verdict last week. I binge watched every bit of video of the Supreme Court case on YouTube yesterday, says Denise. What a great result. I see the pushback has already kicked off. The trans lobby will not go quietly. but keep up the sterling work on Planet Normal. Thank you, Denise.

And as we know, co-pilot, no historic event in the history of these aisles would be complete without a contribution from Bob the Bard. Two years ago, you read out a poem I wrote called What is a Woman? Well, we now have the answer, says Ron. Thanks again for Planet Normal. And three cheers for all those who tirelessly campaigned for the restoration of reality. P.S. says Bob. Alison, I'm glad you enjoyed your cruise, but it was great to have you back last week.

I reckon it was the best episode ever. Oh, Bob, stop crawling. You're just encouraging her. He's just trying to soothe my hurt feelings because we had so many... How many disloyal emails saying that the episode I was away was the best ever? Honestly. Thank you, Bob. Even if it's not true, thank you. So this is by Bob. What is a woman? Part two. So now we have the answer. The Supreme Court has spoken. Common sense has won the day and the crazy curse is broken.

And so I'd like to ask all those who happily parroted lies, now that we have this ruling, would you like to apologise? Apologise to employees who were hounded from their jobs and to all the brave campaigners who were bullied by angry mobs. And what of our institutions who connived in all this mess and the businesses and the media, our schools and the NHS? Well, those who've twigged the game is up are now running for the hills. But will any be held accountable? I somehow doubt they will.

But let us focus on the victory and toast it with champagne. For adult human females have triumphed once again. Yay, fantastic. And on that bombshell, that's it from Planet 4 for another week as we leave our sanctuary of sweet reason, our flying refuge of reason views. Email of the week. It's Alison's turn. Look, it has to be Bob for his What is a Woman part two. Bob the Bard.

He's got a battalion of Planet Normal mugs. Bob, have you got any space left in your spare room and you want another Planet Normal mug? do email us at plantnormal at telegraph.co.uk put mug winner in the subject heading and remind us and we will send you a rare as rocking horse poo planet normal mug.

If you enjoy Planet Normal, and we really hope you do, please subscribe to this podcast and leave us a rating and a review on Spotify where you can... find lots of lovely endorsements not all of them written by the Pearson or Halligan families and it really does help other people to find us the Planet Normal family.

And as we speed away from our beloved planet normal, the madness of planet Earth comes back into view. Thanks as ever to our producers, Isabel Bajard, Cass Ho and Louisa Wells. Stay safe and in touch with us and with each other. Until next week, it's goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from him. We're Backmarket, the home of high-quality, affordable, refurbished tech.

Like this smartphone, it can do all your phone things, like ignoring that cold call. This phone can also video chat, snooze, snooze again, like, unlike, and do everything a brand new phone can. There's just one difference. This phone costs up to 50% less because it's not new. It's verified refurbished, meaning it's been inspected by industry experts and comes with a year's warranty. Backmarket. Downgrade.

This transcript was generated by Metacast using AI and may contain inaccuracies. Learn more about transcripts.
For the best experience, listen in Metacast app for iOS or Android
Open in Metacast