The Mandelson quagmire and murky dealing of Chagos

The telegraph. with simple prompts. Get started for free. You can't but avoid Peter Mandelson, he's everywhere, and he will sidle up to you like Carr the Snake in the jungle book. I wasn't shocked because I think one knew enough about the man to know that there were so many skeletons in the cupboard. Have you seen that picture of him in his underpants? You could have been in there, Halligan.

I think the symbolism is terrible. To give an adversary a prime location across the road from the Tower of London. on a historic site, why don't we just leave them in their seven buildings scattered across London, which is much more appropriate in terms of symbolising the relationship? One. We have left off. Welcome once again to Planet Normal, the telegraph podcast with Alison Pearson. Hello.

And me, Liam Halligan. Another mad week on planet Earth, Alison, but luckily here we are aboard our beloved Rocket of Right Thinking, heading for planet normal.

And what more is there to say about Peter Mandelson copilot, the now thrice disgraced former cabinet minister, who was until September Prime Minister Keir Starmer's British Ambassador to the United States? The latest release of emails from the US Department of Justice reveals in gory detail the extent of Mandelson's relationship with the convicted and now deceased paedophile and financier Jeffrey Epstein.

Epstein was convicted in two thousand eight by a Florida court after pleading guilty to two counts of procuring a child for prostitution, resulting in a thirteen month sentence. He was arrested again in twenty nineteen on federal charges, but died before trial. These leaked emails now suggest that in two thousand and nine after Epstein's conviction, that Peter Mandelson, uh then Prime Minister Gordon Brown's Deputy Prime Minister.

maintained not only a close friendship with Epstein, but was sending the financier market sensitive information produced at the highest level of the British government. Just as Epstein was sending Mandelson and his then boyfriend later husband tens of thousands of pounds. It's some scandal, Alison, and both Keir Starmer and Gordon Brown, to say nothing of the Labour Party more generally, are now doing everything they can to distance themselves from Mandelson, a pivotal figure, of course.

in the creation of the entire new Labour movement back in the nineties, which saw Labour win three successive elections. You've written about Madison's in Wednesday Wednesdays Telegraph, Allison, link in the show notes. And you've also brought to light this week some interesting new information related to the conviction and thirty one month jail sentence meted out to Northamptonshire mum and childminder, Lucy Connolly.

We'll discuss all that too. But before we start, let's mention our upcoming planet normal event. Hooray on Tuesday the twenty fourth of February at the Emmanuel Centre in London. It's a live recording with us recording. It's a live recording with us interviewing top novelist Lionel Shriver about her new book.

And we'll also be joined by the latest Tory MP to defector reform, former Home Secretary Swella Brothman. Tickets are available via the link in the show notes to this episode and via telegraph.co.uk forward slash. Planet normal. Yeah, please come and join us. We all need some cheering up. Uh i you know, we've we've got to come together, hold hands and have a drink,'cause it's bloody mad out there, isn't it, Liam? It certainly is. And uh our our telegraph colleagues have been working hard.

setting up the ticketing system. It's not long to go. Uh we'll be there. Um in our best Bibb and Tucker, ready to have a really great conversation with two of our um most revered Planet Normal guests, both Lionel and Sweller, have pl appeared on the podcast on several occasions. uh over the years since we started it in early twenty twenty. And I'm particularly excited to hear from Lionel because of course she'll be talking for the first time in public about her new

Book. So we hope to see as many planet normal uh citizens there as we possibly can on Tuesday, the twenty-fourth of. February, not long now. But Alison, what a week this has been. Uh I think like you, I was shocked.

but not surprised at some of the revelations in these emails that came to light. It's just disgusting, isn't it, really? I guess we You know, y we have all these people being described as conspiracy theorists for saying there's this sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl.

uh relatively blameless Northampton housewives and bang them up in jail and get no jail time at all. And uh guess what, Liam? It's not a conspiracy theory, is it? It's um uh I think the Mandelson story which has far more ramifications, uh, I think uh than than than we can even see at the moment. I think I think we're just seeing the surface of it. I strongly suspect it's going to get darker and and and more horrible. Um

But yes, I mean I think that we we just before recording we saw Prime Minister's questions where Cammy Badenock, Tory leader, was um really putting Starmer on the spot about there's a fundamental question here, given Mandelson's absolutely rancid track record, basically Peter's uh method of operation is Suck up Punch Down, suck up to the wealthiest people you can find, uh, do favours for them, claim you have no recollection of them. I have kept no record of that.

Um, amazing how much money can go into his bank account and he's never noticed. Does he? Does it i is it is it only small people who open bank statements? I'm not sure. Um but anyway, so there's this fundamental question of um he picked having having done these various favours over the years. for very high profile people and then having to resign. So there's an obvious Mandelson pattern.

And then, lo and behold, Starmer government comes in and uh Mandelson is given this absolute plum job, his dream job, British ambassador to the United States.

And the big question really is how did Starmer and the inner Starmer Cabal, including Mor uh, Morgan Bucksweeney, how did they think that this was ever gonna be a suitable appointment?'Cause plenty of people said, uh you know, it's all gonna blow up because uh, you know, apart from Peter's uh, you know, notorious track record, there also was pretty evident proof

bod wedi bod wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

to um coercing a child into prostitution. And that's what Starman now is on the hook for. So that's the sort of that's the sort of central point. But beyond that, I mean you and I have been exchanging text, haven't we? I mean This was Peter Mandelson brought back yet again from the naughty step to the cabinet by a desperately unpopular Gordon Brown, who effectively made him Deputy Prime Minister. And it looks from the latest cache of Epstein uh emails, um it looks like he was um

uh n not just emailing Epstein and various leading American financiers. He was literally within seconds passing on government emails and in one case with a prominent American banker, he gave the advice um that this banker who didn't want the American bankers' bonuses to be taxed as um in the in the wake of the financial crisis, uh, he recommended that this man should be mildly threatening

to Alistair Darling, the then extremely upright Chancellor Exchequer. Ca can we just pause, Liam, and underst and hear that? The second in command of the new Labour government suggested via Jeffrey Epstein uh uh you know a serial industrial level paedophile that uh a big American banker should threaten his colleague. Alistair Darling. I mean they're talking about comparisons with the profumo scandal. This will be the biggest scandal.

a political scandal of our lifetime Barnard. Mandelson at the time, as you say Alison rightly, was effectively number two in the government at the time. Yeah. Alistair Darling, the late Alistair Darling, who I knew well. uh had my differences with him but very much respected him. He was then literally uh Around the clock. Grappling

to rescue the UK, to rescue the broader Western world as it happened from uh the madness of the global financial crisis in two thousand and eight. And meanwhile is currying favour with extremely wealthy people at a time when they're sending him and his then boyfriend tens of thousands of pounds which he now

i it it's pretty clear that well the police are now involved. Um given what we know, uh without wishing to, you know, prejudge the case in any way, it it seems pretty clear uh and leading um Uh judicial figures are suggesting that Peter Manson's likely to be arrested. Uh there could be serious criminal wrongdoing here.

people go to jail in the in the city of London for insider trading. Um you previously um senior ministers have obviously gone to jail in our in our lifetime a and this looks really, really bad. I remember being a young political correspondent in the late nineties when the first Mandelson scandal broke.

The fact that um uh Jeffrey Robinson then Paymaster General had lent him a load of money for a house he couldn't afford in Notting Hill. At the same time Jeffrey Robinson was being investigated for wrongdoing himself. by the very department then trade and industry which Mandelson was running, uh

Madison was brought back into government by Blair, second chance. He then got um he resigned due to allegations uh that he tried to fast track some passports for two wealthy uh Indian uh industrialists, British passports. uh there was an internal inquiry after Mandelson resigned that absolved him of wrongdoing. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But Blair then brought him back again by making him, you know, plum job EU trade commissioner, massive pension, massive tax free salary, you know, uh so uh

chauffers and and and subsistence allowances on hot and cold running taps. A a very nice lifestyle thank you. And then Brown brought him back again in two thousand and nine, as we said, with a peerage debut. Well Manderson's resigned from the peerage before Parliament could pass an act to get rid of him from the upper house. He's lost his privy councillorship.

There is no way back now for Peter Mandelson. And the question at hand is, are we talking uh criminal uh investigation? Are we talking criminal prosecution? And as far as we know, the latest I heard

Peter Mandelson still denies all wrongdoing. Tell the listeners about what he said when you joined the lobby because this is Well the the the lobby is basically a a a a a a group of um parliamentary reporters who have special access to Downing Street and and um Quite soon when I started in the lobby it's sort of uh various journalists still make fun of me for this. So this was a w how old how old were you then? I was I was twenty twenty six.

Pete Peter Mandelson asked at a very senior FT lunch to which I wasn't invited, but one of my friends there told me. Uh the first question he asked as he sat down, he asked the editor of the FT was So who is this new Lothario that you've that you've put in the lobby for the actual times? Now I I suppose I should be flattered that I caught his eye. But on the other hand, a Lothario is yeah, it's quite a pejorative term. L Lotharios tend to be

Yeah, people who are quite sneaky and shady and and and manipulate for their for their own ends. So Yeah, I've you've seen that picture of him in his in i in his underpants. You could have you could he could have been in there, Halligan. In their like swimwear as they as they as as they say. But look, I I d I've dealt with Pete Mandelson a lot over the years. I I and like any anyone that's had any involvement uh s you know, with parliamentary reporting

political reporting and commentary at a senior level in this country. You can't but avoid Peter Mandelson, he's everywhere and he will sidle up to you and he will, you know, like car the snake in the jungle book, um he'll say trust Trust in me. Trust in me. broadcaster or or whatever, then he's gonna try and get on the right side of you. And he is extremely skilled at ingratiating himself. He can be extremely charming, gossipy.

all the rest of it. But it turns out that he also has a singular uh uh lack of judgment when it comes to uh his own affairs and he seems to have absolutely no regard at all for uh the the senior positions in the British government which were entrusted to him, not least the ambassadorship of uh in Washington on behalf of um his Majesty's government and he must have been asked by even the most cursory

security checks on him must have asked him and we're gonna be hearing more about this from our guests uh later in Planet Normal, they must have asked him, is there anything that we should know that if it came to light

could undermine, you know, the British government's reputation with you as their most senior overseas diplomat. He must have been asked that. Starmer said in the commons today, Oh, he lied uh to me and my team. Um But there was a lot of jeering and uh you know, people shouting in the commons and I w I was shouting at the telly as well, because it's absolutely ridiculous that Keir Starmer, his long term mate of twenty years

didn't know exactly the nature of the person he was dealing with. But I s I began my uh telegraph column actually this week by

I met him first in Mandelson first in nineteen ninety eight at a at a Max Hastings party for the London Evening Standard and Former editor of the Standard, of course. Yeah. Very rarely had um Now I was you know, quite a young woman, uh, I was of no importance. And I think that's interesting. All the men who've written about him today, where he was useful to them, they've had got a they have a very different account of him.

uh, than someone like me. But I I the word that came to mind was diabolical. I thought he in the great Anne Whittaken phrase had something of the night about him. I I didn't like him at all. I knew quite a lot of new Labour people who were close to him and I'd say, he's not a very nice man, is he? And they'd say, Ha ha that yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n.

fellow journalist Liam, but I was really annoyed today because I read the Matthew Parris in the Times and Matthew Parris wrote about Mandelson And it was very much the establishment speaking, oh towering figure, history will record him as having been such an important figure in New Labour, etcetera, etcetera. Um course one always gets a few bounders in the Lords, you know.

Well, bounder is a nice comedy word, isn't it? Bounder is Terry Thomas. Yeah. This isn't bounder. This is somebody One notch below scoundrel. Yeah, exactly. But this one notch above CAD Yeah, CAD scoundrel bounder. That's the same family of semi affectionate nouns, isn't it? What we're actually talking about is potentially if these uh Epstein files are correct someone who uh uh is a traitor. i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w

with someone who was involved in the industrial scale trafficking of young women and I've been reading some of these emails and they are stomach churning. Uh there was a a particular French paedophile who was out wreckeying the girls like a sheepdog going to find some some of these young women for Epstein, and as one young Ukrainian woman who obviously was quite distressed. And uh it just said next to her name, Ars ass, bottom ten. That's it. That's what she was.

10 for her bottom. So that's the nature of the uh what we're dealing with here. And you know what I felt reading that Matthew Parris column and some of the reaction, oh Peter's just being Peter. This is the reason why our country is rotten, morally rotten. They're young women, they have no agency, they have no contact.

They're of no use to the Peter Mandelson class, old boy, you know? So it's made me very angry and I think it's made me think about um uh i it it it's a kind of institutional disease and also I'm interested to see

Uh Starmer sent Mandelson to Washington to persuade the Trump administration partly about the Chagos deal. uh uh giving British thirty five billion pounds of money that Britain doesn't have to Mauritius, uh a China adjacent country. I think that that deal uh probably sums up a lot of stuff that's wrong, the people who are involved in it, uh Philippe Sands, international human rights lawyer, Keir Starmer, Peter Mandelson, Jonathan Powell, National Security Advisor.

What's going on there, Liam? They seem to not give a monkeys about ordinary people, about the the the the burden on the Exchequer, the burden on our tax base. It seems to me as if a lot of the people you've mentioned, of course, they'd deny it, are just burnishing their right on credentials so they can then spend their dotage. you know, flying around the world

with nice plus one invitations to give, you know, Poncey progressive lectures and they earn ten or fifteen grand for their trouble. It's it's all about their own positioning uh on the international globalist stage rather than them serving um the the the people of the country that pay their wages, frankly. Uh not that Mandelson in his own words wants to be beholden to a salary. Uh Same as the rest of us.

Pi P Peter, look, I'm sitting just off the telegraph newsroom and in this newsroom um some absolutely brilliant journalism took place. Uh around the time that Pina Banson was Deputy Prime Minister and in the years after that. I'm talking about the expenses scandal. Um and this newspaper absolutely spearheaded that expensive scale. expenses candle. It needed to happen uh and it changed the political weather. It changed the public's view of our political

class and I think this I think this Maddelson scandal will change the public views again, not for the better of the political class. Movies are gonna be made about this, okay? It's gonna be dramatized, you know. Who who who's gonna who's gonna play Peter Mandelson? You know, various casting agents will now be rifling through their their clientele looking for uh tall uh tall di demonic satine prominent cheekbones who can slink their way along the corridors of

power. I think it's it's it's it's that big and you often don't see the real significance of situations when you're in the middle of them. Of course we now are. There's an absolute new tsunami uh about this and of course the telegraph is the forefront uh of reporting on it. So I found this quote, right, when Peter Mandelson has talked approvingly of what he called the post democratic age, right?

Now that speaks to something much wider and more insidious because we have a government which has cancelled local elections, which is trying to restrict trial by jury, which is trying to uh introduce a blasphemy law and in which people like the person we're coming on to talk about, Lucy Connolly, um Mm. Look at Peter Mandelson's career and what does he get? He gets to be British Ambassador to the United States. a two-tier system isn't even in it, Liam. It's a three-tier system, you know.

gilded globalist elite of which he um of which he was very, very keen to be a member. The frictionless elite, no borders, as you said, couldn't give a monkeys about ordinary people. And I I and I think I I am sick of it. I'm done with them now. And you know, I'd like I'd like to see them all gone and start again because um because it's disgusting. They don't work for the British people. They are rotten to the core. Um And I think that the Mandelson, as you say, I think it's it's gonna be

a much wider resonance. It's not just a little Starmer in the commons today talked about process, didn't he? process. I thought Kemi did well to put him under pressure. Kemmie was really good and held his feet to the fire, didn't she? And and she was coming back to the main point. If you knew this, and we know you must have known it because it was in the public domain Why did you think it was appropriate to give that kind of man that job?

And the re the answer to that, Liam, is because that's what they do. That's what they think they can get away with. And my fear is that this will be another thing that they get away with. I want Peter Mandelson in a dock.

I want him explaining. Are they gonna get away with the way they treated Lucy Connolly though? Obviously Lucy's closely associated with this podcast, you have absolutely led the charge on highlighting her case. We've jointly interviewed her, um, haven't we, on on this on this podcast? Uh you now reveal in your column again, link in the show notes. some some new information. I know the Telegraph News Desk is writing it up now Thursday paper that her case, you know, we all hear about endless

delays in the court system, you get rape victims having to relive their trauma four years later. You know, uh and so they just end up dropping the case in many in many situations'cause their life's too short. for for that. And yet this Lucy Connolly prosecution was absolutely fast tracked.

And the documentation shows that the Attorney General was involved in that fast tracking. And there seems to me, Alison, from the evidence that you present, which are emails effectively released by the government after Lucy did a subject access, request through her lawyers.

far from being hands off was absolutely steering the judiciary and telling it what to do. I mean, you talk about a lack of trial by jury. What happened to Magna Carta in that case? Well, they're trying to get rid of that, aren't they? And we know why. So um When my interview with Lucy broke revealing the way that she had been uh treated as if she was like the worst person in the world, um Ki it was put to Keir Starmer and he claimed to never have heard of her.

Um it was said the Attorney General, uh Richard Hermer and other of the people involved in the the little the charming little uh new Labour clique, which is now dominating the headlines with the Mandelson scandal. So these things are linked. So as you say, Liam. Lucy knew a lot of things didn't didn't sound right about the way her case had been handled, just to remind listeners. Um

on the night of the Southport massacre of the little girls at a Taylor Swift dance class, Lucy tweeted something very intemperate and unpleasant. Uh

She's not a racist. She had worked all of her child minding group was African children and Asian children, much, much loved by all those families. Um that's not really the point, but anyway she's not a racist, she was uh dismayed ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl.

Crowborough and RAF weather still. It's gone completely mainstream. It's gone completely mainstream. But just to just to look at this, so Lisi Uh she was told by the Crown Prosecution Service, No, we haven't got your files. They've you know, they're not here, they've gone missing. So she submitted, she's very determined, she put in a subject.

access request and a couple of days ago. And bright as a button, by the way, for people who doubt it, she is as bright as a button. She absolutely is. And what has come back is utterly damning, not of Lucy herself, but of the criminal justice system, which was clearly in a hurry to punish her as harshly as possible. So she was charged on the night of the ninth of August.

Um, this was a Saturday when good lawyers are hard to find, no coincidence there. And the CPS had received confirmation that Lord Hermer, the Attorney General, had signed off the Lucy Connolly Prosecution. He was up early, wasn't he? That's amazing. So, um, and the email said that the case had gone through an emergency prosecution. I spoke to a senior barrister who described that to me as almost certainly unlawful. They have to prove it's an emergency and there was no reason For Lucy.

oedd yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud â'r gweithio, ac yn ymwneud â'r gweithio, yn ymwneud â'r gweithio. Mae'n ymwneud â'r gweithio yn ymwneud â'r gweithio. And then it goes on. So the CPS had said that there was evidence of other racist tweets sent on Lucy's account. That was absolutely not true. Uh there was one joke about

Pie keys with a friend, but there was nothing else. So the police said that that that that wasn't true. And this is another astonishing fact. Nowhere near breaking existing laws that we have. rightly on, you know, language that incites Hatred and violence. It was made known that Mrs. Connolly does not like immigrants and thinks they're a danger to children. She never said that, but that was released. And then of course, by the time they retracted that.

she was Tory counselor's racist wife. Now this is another astonishing thing. District judges had been informed about these cases. They were cases like Lucy's linked to the Southport killings, and they were told that these cases must be put in the next available slot. You know, well, there we are. Um the barrister I spoke to described that as unconstitutional. Um and then Lucy was denied bail twice. She was a perfectly

She was a perfect candidate for bail. Despite having a a a young traumatised child at home. Child child at home. Uh the barrister says there was no need for protection. They said they were they were not bailing her for her own protection. There was no need for that. And there was no danger of a repeat offence. And um this is fascinating. On the 22nd of August.

The documents record that Lucy's solicitor attended her second bail hearing. They were appealing the fact that she'd been denied bail, and the hearing lasted two minutes. Two minutes. just long enough to read out Lucy's name, date of birth and address. And Lucy's as clearly Alice the decision had already been made. They weren't prepared to listen to any of my uh mitigating

factors and and I I mean it it you know, it it goes it goes on and on. Um and then this I think is absolutely monstrous. Um The CPS revealed that they'd been told that people involved in the Southport uh case are going to get custodial sentences of twelve months and over. There is a sentencing council which is independent.

of you know the separation of powers, the entire basis on which we've run our country for hundreds of years and the world has learnt from. Yes. And this is from the government Absolutely nuts and from the government which we know now is trying to restrict trial by jury. So I think that they are absolutely aware that their multicultural project, diversity is our strengths, is completely collapsing. People like Lucy are challenging it.

And their answer to it is not to start deporting the people who are raping and sexually harassing women and children, it's to clamp down. And um I just got this I got this text. Uh, from Lucy. I thought I'd read out you, maybe keep out some of the swear words. I'm just sitting here reflecting and getting angry. Those bastards took me away from Edie for over a year, and as far as I'm concerned, they're the worst kind of humans lying, cheating, soulless bastards.

I sent one effing tweet and they made me out to be Rose West. Yet look at Peter Mandelson and his ilk. The whole time they act in an unforgivable and anti British way. Campaign is the Yeah. In Portugal. The tracks every win. Get started for free. Campaign.com Podcast Advertising works, and with ACAS Ads Academy, you'll learn exactly how. Our free on demand courses more than a decade of podcasting experience, giving you practical tools to create campaigns that drive results.

Complete the course and you'll earn a certification that proves your skills in one of the fastest growing channels in media. Get started today at go.acast.com forward slash academy.

Now returning to the rocket is one of our most popular ever guests. Sir Richard Deerlove, the former head of MI6, first appeared on Planet Normal in june twenty twenty, several months into lockdown. During that interview, Sir Richard disclosed his theory, which he held along with several scientific experts.

That the COVID nineteen virus originated not from bats being sold sold in so called wet markets in China It actually originated, he said, from a lab in Wuhan and was an engineered escapee in his words, having been inadvertently released by technicians. Sir Richard's statement, hugely controversial at the time, drove headlines around the world, challenging the consensus that it was wrong even racist to blame the Chinese. That dear love theory is now, of course, conventional wisdom.

Sir Richard Deerlove now presents his own podcast One Decision. He was head of MI six, a role known as C from nineteen ninety nine until tw two thousand four and is a highly respected authority on defence, national security, and And international affairs. Richard, we're talking on a day when the story dominating the news is

uh Peter Mandelson. One of the questions that's being raised today in in in Prime Minister's Questions is the vetting of Peter Mandelson um before he became the British Ambassador to the United States. Uh you know, as someone obviously who knows um the security services intimately, do you think he will have had stringent vetting? And do you think that the Prime Minister

could have ignored the red flags if he'd wanted to. Each department is responsible for doing its own vetting. So it's the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. who should have done it. But my understanding of what happened was that the appointment was approved. and announced before the vetting was completed. But that's hearsay, but I think probably accurate. The key is he should have been asked the question Is there anything?

in your current life, which would bring the office of ambassador in the United States into disrepute if you have integrity. which clearly this man does not have. There is a clear answer to that. Yes, I had a relationship with Epstein and therefore probably you shouldn't appoint me because that's going to cause problems in the future. He must have known that absolutely. And a lot of the vetting process is about personal integrity. Okay, you have an investigation on the side as well.

and uh it strikes me in this instance that there was no serious investigation of Mandelson's Well I wouldn't say his past. His past was well known, his immediate past, the stuff that wasn't known. We know the track record. uh sucking up to wealthy people. f favours mysteriously then being done, we'll we'll say we'll say no more than that. W would you, when you were head of the intelligence services, would you have employed such a man? Absolutely not.

I mean I said in a press interview when his appointment was announced that it was highly inappropriate to appoint him and there would be massive problems. I can't remember exactly what phrase I used, but something along those lines. Look, you didn't have to be Well you didn't have to be a former head of MI6 in order to make a judgment. If I could make that judgment in terms of my knowledge of him and his past. For example, you know, I had known a lot about the Hindujas professionally. Um

Why on earth couldn't the Prime Minister make the same judgment? I mean, you know, why do they even consider it? I I mean I'm just left flabbergasted by the whole event. You spend your professional life, Sir Richard, uh thinking about being a practitioner Um with regards to Britain's national security, our international reputation, our good standing, the respect for us.

in the world, if not always the affection, if I may say so. How did you feel over recent days reading these emails? Were you surprised? Were you shocked? Or what other adjective would describe your mood? I was disgusting. I wasn't shocked because I think one knew enough.

about the man to know that there were so many skeletons in the cupboard, he shouldn't ever have been put in any of these positions after the first few, you know, incidents in his professional life. That should have discounted him out.

I mean he clearly was a person who couldn't be properly vetted. And I think look, if you've been the head of an organization which demands developed vetting for every single member of staff where you have a responsibility and from a period of time in MI six I was actually the head of personnel or, you know, the director of personnel.

You demand of your staff the highest standards of behaviour and you don't give them the benefit of the doubt when something goes wrong. And their vetting if their vetting certificates are withdrawn, they lose their jobs. It's as simple as that. So, you know, this sort of double standard which is imposed on, you know people I wasn't gonna say like myself, but the staff in MI six, and then you have these antics.

I mean, ridiculous antiques on the part of senior ministers. I I mean, you know, Manson isn't the only example. He's the most clear cut recently and probably the worst. But I mean I could give you a a list of other examples and I'm not going to. That would be indiscreet because they're probably not in the public domain anyway. I mean it's really awful. When you're in charge of a body. which, you know, is expected to to behave in an immaculate fashion. Both in that

professional and private lives. The there has been a suggestion that one reason that the Prime Minister wanted Mandelson in Washington was to lean on the Trump administration about this Chagos deal. Um now we there are l lots of I think murky things about the Chagos steel. W what's your take on that? That that seems to be coming back to what Liam said. not in our national interest to pay thirty-five billion pounds to Mauritius. to take away the Chagos Islands. But what's your take on that?

And where do we think we possibly see Peter Mandelson in relation to China and the influence which China is uh is having on Mauritius and the Chagos deal? Well the Chagos deal is a dreadful deal. It was only an advisory opinion by the International Court of Justice. And on that panel, incidentally, was a Russian and a Chinese judge. The claim to the Chagos Islands from Mauritius, which is a thousand miles distant, is extremely questionable.

It is a really important strategic base on D D Diego Garcia, which of course is mainly occupied by the Americans but under British sovereignty. Why on earth would we change that position? I mean if you own a house the freehold of a house. Why do you suddenly make it into a leasehold and start paying someone else for the benefit of owning it? I mean that the economics are crazy, the politics are crazy.

And we have a merchant government which is strongly influenced by Chinese expansion in that part of the Indian Ocean. So and I I mean I'll admit the fact that I wrote some briefs'cause I was asked to for the Trump administration because I felt it was On on Chagos. On Chagos. And and and passed them over. Uh and interestingly, they didn't initially react. in fact Rubio, National Security Advisor, as he became, s I know saw them, and more or less seemed to sort of nod the agreement through.

But I mean I'm thrilled because they've clearly had a reconsideration and it looks as though the Chagos deal now should fall apart. It's massively opposed in the House of Lords. That's my understanding at the moment. So it's gonna get stuck there. But if the Americans don't endorse it, don't uh a agree to it, then I think the whole thing disintegrates.

It's been a pretty busy beginning to twenty twenty six when it comes to the geopolitics, Sir Richard, what with Iran, Venezuela, the White House having designs on Greenland. Um But talking about Chagos and um American bases, how concerned are you that we're missing the big geopolitical story here, which is That Beijing could properly blockade or even invade Taiwan. We know that twenty twenty seven is the year that Xi has ordered his military

to be ready. Are we underplaying that danger and how should Britain respond? Well, how should Britain respond? I think we are bit players, frankly, when it comes to Taiwan. I mean we have a certain influence diplomatically, but we have no raw power that is gonna change the Taiwanese situation. I mean my own view on Taiwan is that it

A military invasion i is unlikely. Blockade, right? Given the energy defense. But you know, you c you can achieve most of what you want on Taiwan with a blockade, plus the fact is that, you know, the the the Kuomintang, the original, you know, government of Taiwan, is pretty pro Beijing. So I mean politically there are elements there where they could reach some sort of accommodation. And I mean having, you know, observed what happens

in a war like Ukraine, where the the the losses are staggering. Um the Taiwanese military is extremely potent. And The difficulty. of a seaborne amphibious invasion. I mean the PLA has been redesigned partly to carry out a seaborne invasion of Taiwan. It's taken them fifteen, twenty years to build up the capability. But to do that a over what's called the cross straight.

is really, really complex and difficult because there's the the sea distance is long, the vulnerability of those troops crossing, uh, it would be a bloodbath. I don't honestly think that the Chinese are going to, as it were, carry out although I I should say the Chinese communist government are going to carry that out. I mean they'll they'll use other means uh diplomatically, politically, economically and get

ninety five percent I guess of what they want eventually. You told Planet Normal before that you felt that the David Cameron and George Osborne uh let's be best mates with Beijing approach was I can't quite remember it was in one of your marvellous phrases but

naivety uh well it was naive in the extreme. Naive in the extreme. So what do you think about the British government uh approving this uh super super Chinese embassy on the site of the of the former Royal Mint. Well I think the symbolism is terrible. To give an adversary a prime location across the road from the Tower of London on a historic site.

Why don't we just leave them in their seven buildings scattered across London, which is much more appropriate in terms of symbolising the relationship? Uh there are the the security issues I think I you maybe you'll be surprised when I say this have been slightly overplayed. in relation to the site. But there is a problem with cables, and I don't want to talk too much about that.

technically, but you know, you have to bear in mind professionally I was a poacher and not a gamekeeper. So I know what's possible, if you see what I mean. And it would be extremely wise of the government to reroute strategic stuff which is relevant to data collection and confidentiality in the city of London, well away from that site. So there th there is a there there is a problem. But I I I just think it's the wrong moment the wrong time with the wrong country. to allowing this massive

uh, central embassy when we don't need to do it. Okay. Reciprocity we have a problem with our embassy in Beijing, but it's not a big deal. I mean that for the UK is not a big deal. uh uh a and you know, embassies in this day and age are much less important than they used to be. And there is a there's another aspect of the Chinese embassy in London which people haven't mentioned. which is its share size and the fact that you will have a m huge number of staff there um who can be deployed

to third countries in Europe. And a lot of espionage activity is actually carried out in third countries if you see what I mean. So uh you know, a Chinese employee the embassy travels on holiday to France. but he's actually on an intelligence mission. No one's mentioned that, but it is actually a big deal. And remember

that the Chinese do not employ any locally employed staff in their embassies as opposed to the British system. So right down to the the bottle washers, the car parkers, the people who the mechanics And I thought the other thing which is really amusing, if you have A consular system which allows UK people to go into China for 30 days without getting a visa you're gonna release a lot of your consular staff

to do other things. Yes. Here's a question, Sir Richard. Do you think reform UK, obviously well ahead in opinion polls

Do you think they could make a decent fist of government in this country? Not yet. And I think that, you know, there's a lack of ballast below the waterline. But there are an awful lot of people I think who are not necessarily politically strong supporters of r reform, but who want a government if it's going to be elected that's going to be successful and will be prepared to lend expertise and help to give a reform government the sort of policy weight

That they're gonna need when they come into power, because they're going to have to do an awful lot of quick legislation. to change things fundamentally. And I I mean, for example, I think one of the biggest problems they'll be facing is the willingness of the current civil service

to as it were implement their policies. So how are they going to deal with that problem? I think it's a s what do you say to those civil servants who see it as their job to block an elected government? In the past this was unthinkable. the civil service code was that you support and you know you work as hard as you can for the government that's elected by the people. Uh and I think only recently one has begun to see a reluctance among some civil servants.

you know, by l let's say it's a policy of inertia. Do nothing and stop you things happening that you don't like. And I think we saw this particularly with Brexit. I I mean some of the things that happened during the Brexit debate were quite outrageous because I certainly know of one civil servant who was Brex who was a strong Brexiteer, who w was was was, as it were, punished after the event.

for having been active, politically active in supporting the Brexit initiative. Um, on the basis they'd broken the civil service code. But hang on a moment, it wasn't Brexit government policy? uh and the implementation of Brexit was very complicated. So I mean I think this I think reform are extremely worried about that. And at the moment you can't sack. Senior civil servants. You can if you change the legislation. So they're going to be faced with some very interesting problems in their first.

ninety days in office. We've seen obviously President Trump attracting a lot of criticism over his uh his um pronouncements on Greenland. Um I wonder and then the European leaders, um, you know, we've seen Mark Carney and so on saying actually this is a a major reset now. How how fair do you think Trump's criticisms of NATO are?

And what do you think is gonna have to be the way forward for NATO? Do you think we have to keep the Americans on side as our country? Of course we do. I I think Greenland is a distraction, and I'm highly critical of the way that the US administration dealt with the Greenland issue. But actually I think it might have been a faint.

Anyway. Right. Um, it's a good way of distracting the fact that you've got a massive carrier group sailing towards the coast of Iran at the same time. Yes. And I mean what's interesting on Greenland, just to deal with that. is that, you know, Rutte says there's a deal. And Trump has accepted that.

I've just done a podcast, one decision podcast, by the way as my own, with the Danish MP who chairs the defence committee in the Danish Parliament. And the first question we asked him is what's the agreement? Or what's going to be the agreement? His answer was, I haven't got a clue. He said the situation's exactly the same as it was before the meeting between Trump and Rutter.

So it it does look as though there's some sort of back off and they're back to exactly where they were before, which is the nineteen fifty one agreement with Denmark, which allows the Americans to have as many bases But I said, What about sovereign base areas? And like Cyprus. Yeah. But the Danish MP said, We're not going to surrender any territory.

as sovereign to the Americans. So it's not even sovereign base areas, which I thought might be the solution, but it doesn't appear to be. We've spoken to a lot of military people on Planet Normal very, very concerned about the hollowing out of the military which we've seen in the last sort of twenty five years. And yet you have Starmer, Keir Starmer saying, Boots on the ground in Ukraine, you know, we had General Sapeter Wall last week rolling his eyes at that prospect.

How i how you know, in how weak a position are we now militarily and and how much have suc successive governments got to take the blame for that? Well, we've allowed the military to be seriously run down, I think. someone said to me recently that you could get the whole of the armed forces, or maybe it was just the army, into the Manchester United football stadium. Um I mean it's ridiculous. It's the smallest historically it's been since before the Napoleonic Wars. Yeah.

Um okay. But I mean Trump is absolutely right on one thing. Why on earth Should Americans pay for the defence of Europe when we have all got excessive social security budget. and and not spending, you know, the money on defending ourselves. So increase to five percent, yes. The UK government has said by twenty thirty five I think. No, he's actually said to three percent. Three percent, yeah. But I mean we sh we should be going to five now.

And there's no question that, you know, this should be the government's top priority. It's more exp i it's more important than National Health Service, it's more important than anything, but they just don't yet seem to be persuaded. And, you know, too little, too late, too slowly. Uh it's not It i it's very disturbing. Very disturbing indeed. And actually they've bumped up the defence budget. I don't know whether you understand this to two it's now two point eight or two point

eight two or something. But they've put the intelligence and security budget into the defence budget to make it look bigger. Final question. We're up against time. We can't have you on Planet Normal Sir Richard without raising this.

Back in the midst of time, it was early summer twenty twenty when Alison and I were just starting out on the in the podcast Jungle with Planet Normal. You were one of our early guests. one of our very early guests and you said something at the time that was very, very controversial. You said, Forget about the wet markets when it comes to the sources of COVID. It's not about bats. That's a distraction. This was really

a virus that was made in a lab in Wuhan. It was an engineered escapee. It then inadvertently, the Chinese didn't do it deliberately. Uh the thing got out and that's how we had COVID. You were reprimanded for saying that. We were reprimanded for giving you some kind of a platform for saying that. How do you feel about that now, given that it's pretty much the e accepted wisdom

That Sir Richard Delove was right. Thoroughly vindicated. Thoroughly vindicated. And I we got it right and we said it right. But I still think it's pretty scandalous that the virological community have not stood up and said, Mayor Culpa because this experimentation was financed by the Americans. In the Wuhan lab. In the Wuhan lab. And you know, it was a US Chinese collaboration.

And there is still a tendency amongst our own scientists who know about this and were involved in it not to sit down and tell the truth about what happened. And I think it's really uh I I mean it's disgusting that people haven't been more more open about this. This was of the most disruptive social, political and economic event since World War Two. And, you know, Slama goes off to China in the coverage of China, you know, in in that visit, did you see any mention whatsoever of the pandemic?

Did Starmer actually discuss the pandemic, you would have thought it should have been somewhere near the top of the agenda. No, it that would have been far too difficult for him. But, you know, I I I find these This a sort of lack of transparency, lack of honesty. Well, we can see maybe now the cause when, you know, the the the so called wonderful architect of New Labour, Mandelson, is such a man, you know, that has apparently no integrity whatsoever.

What's the link between the no integrity man and the the Chinese? Well what I'm saying is it's the it's it's government's inability to speak openly about these things. And we haven't had any ri we haven't had a clear statement from the government about the causes of the pandemic. And the the current Baroness I can't remember her name now, h w what's doing the inquiry. Oh yes, Hallett. Hallett's Hallett's inquiry.

There's no discussion at all in the inquiry about the causes of the pandemic. It's been pushed to one side. Some of us volunteered to appear. We've been told they're not gonna look into that. You volunteered to appear? Well, I haven't personally, but a group of us volunteered to appear. Those of us who were the early ones who blew the whistle on the pandemic. And they're not interested.

Richard, rydych chi wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

um uh brilliantly I think, um, attacking, uh, neutralising Iran's defensive capability and of course seriously we hope degrading their nuclear capability. Wha what do you think are the chances in the next days and weeks? that there will be an American attack on what form do you think it might take? I think the possibility of an attack is reasonably high. And the reason it's reasonably high is because it's what the Israelis are urging Trump to do.

and it's clear that there has been a strategic meeting between the uh Israeli military and the Americans in DC. If you c cast your mind back to Venezuela, the fleet the powerful fleet sailed up and down off the case. for several weeks before anything happened. And you y i it's the grand old Duke of York. You march your troops to the top of the hill. What are you gonna do? March them down again? So, okay, it may be that there's a negotiation with the Iranians. It's not in the Iranian nature.

to negotiate away their military power uh and and particularly their ability to restart the nuclear programme, which seems to be the condition that Trump uh is asking for. So, you know, my expectation is that at some point there will be an incident which could then escalate. I think what the Americans would try to do

uh if this happens with i the Israelis, because the Israelis will have all the intelligence for targeting, as we've seen already on in the previous twelve day war. They'll they'll knock out the Praetorian Guard. uh the IRG C, uh some of whom have already been killed or by the Israelis, and I think that they'll probably try and go after the supreme leader. as well. And I think that there's

Will this trigger an uprising, another uprising of the Iranian population? Possibly yes if the IRGC are not there to shoot them down. But you know, we don't know how heavy the losses were. But uh some people are talking of figures up to thirty thousand in the recent demonstrations. I mean that may be an exaggeration.

But whatever, it was a pretty brutal and extreme repression. And clearly we're on the cusp of regime change in Iran in the next year. The question is, you know, how how and when it happens. these events now may trigger them, particularly if the Iranians threaten as they appear to have done in this instant, to close the Straits of Hormuz. So Rushdale

Thanks for appearing on Planet Normal. Thanks for inviting me. It's always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Now we're very blessed on Planet Normal to have our regular uh correspondents, aren't we? And one of them is Dr. Claire and um

People may have seen the telegraph had a story about um the government massaging the hospital waiting list figures. Um counting dead people and, you know, taking people off, pretending that the waiting lists were coming down. Anyway, I got in touch with Dr. Claire, who has been a regular uh correspondent to Planet Normal and Claire is a very, very experienced uh NHS GP. So I asked her what could she give us a bit of an update? Brace yourselves. The NHS goes from bad to appalling.

A load of Albanian and Syrian illegal migrants have been moved into a hotel near our surgery. They book appointments constantly, often on a weekly basis. They get a priority appointment. Why? Always given a double appointment. Demand we provide an interpreter at NHS expense. We don't. We use a phone translation app, Claire says.

They bring a scribbled list of demands, which are obviously written for them, and are almost invariably angry, rude, demanding and entitled. Their demands are usually for free medicine. They get very angry if it's suggested that they buy simple remedies over the counter in boots. um and referrals to hospital specialists. Free and specialist are the only words they seem to know, trying to explain that there is a long waiting list just to get a hospital appointment.

takes a long time, as these migrants have the firm belief they should get immediate attention. Demands for antidepressants and trauma counselling are common. Not infrequently they don't turn up to appointments, then book another later in the week. One Albanian lady didn't turn up to a precious and rare hospital appointment as she said it was too far to travel, despite the fact she had managed to travel to the UK from Albania.

I have every sympathy with genuine asylum seekers, says Claire. There's no threat to them in their own countries. Why are they even here? I try to be kind, patient and sympathetic. But it's not easy. I feel for elderly people here have paid taxes all their lives and cannot get even basical med basic medical care when they need it.

Waiting times are worse than ever, says Claire. Patients are removed from waiting lists, and often the first they know or we know about this is when they've been waiting ages and we chase up the appointment, only to find they have been summarily removed with no consultation with them or us. Sometimes they are sent an inappropriate alternative, e.g. physio, when this has already been tried unsuccessfully. Then there is the waiting list.

for the waiting list. You'll remember, Liam, we first broke that on Planet Normal. We continue, says Claire, to be unable to refer directly for an appointment. Instead we are forced to use advice and guidance. which means we do a laborious, long winded email request for advice. Sometimes this isn't answered for a few weeks. The reply may deign to say they'll send an appointment, which can be up to a year hence.

Sometimes they advise trying a medication which we have usually already tried or it doesn't help. before we have to email them again in the hope of being granted an appointment. The whole process just creates barriers to actually getting the patient seen. There is no easy way of contacting anyone to find out if our patient is still on the waiting list.

We are denied phone numbers or email addresses for secretaries or departments. Appointments department don't answer the phone, and on the rare occasion that one gets through, they usually don't know and can't find out. It is an uphill task, says Dr. Clare, and it consumes hours of my time. Meanwhile meanwhile my patients languish, they get sicker, and sometimes they die waiting, or they're unable to work for months.

Shoving up the off sick numbers and the benefits bill. More and more elderly patients of mine are using savings to go privately, rightly calculating they are likely to die before being seen by the NHS. Of course, their first consultation is usually by phone. Then the consultant says they need to be seen face to face. Then another long wait for that.

Why not do all the first consultations face to face, one appointment rather than two? Then waiting for tests again, often several months. Then the wait for treatment interminable. I cannot take good care of my lovely patients any more. Love to you both, Liam and Alison. Claire. Astonishingly powerful email there. Doctor Claire

Taking real career risk there in writing to us in that way. She knows that we're gonna read out her emails, that's the deal. Uh and yet she feels now it's important that she speaks out and more power to her and thanks Dr. Claire for everything that you do. Thank you, Claire. Yeah. Thank you, Claire. The NHS.

This is Tom. Dear Alison and Liam, the front page of the telegraph tells me that the countryside is too white. So DEFRA, that's the Whitehall department, is planning to force it to be more diverse. The big question is why? Is there a problem with too much social cohesion? Farm workers too busy scratching a living to find time to don a kaffir and march through the field shouting hateful slogans. Bring back the Ministry of Agriculture, says Tom.

That was more concerned with milk production than with social engineering. I'm off to the dog and duck for a Guinness Zero and a Halal meat pie. Cheers, Tom. And then Ian says Uh regarding Sakir Starmer, hi both. Isn't there a saying that a man is defined by his friends? Just the tip of an iceberg, I'll bet.

Regardless, and thanks for ploughing on and on that bombshell. That's it from Planet Normal for another week as we leave our sanctuary of sweet reason, our flying refuge of reasoned views. Email of the week, Alison. Dr. Clare, I think. It's gotta be Dr. Clare. So Dr. Clare, send us your postal address, send us an email with that address with mugwinner in the subject heading and we will send you that. Rare as rocking horse poo. Planet normal.

Mug. Please do email in, particularly any female planet normal listeners. I know you're very busy, but please email in. We could do with some we could do with some more girls. Too many women on this podcast already. That's what I say. At least one too many, Copilot Pearson, and another reminder about our event. Tuesday, the twenty fourth of february, it's not long now at the Emanuel Centre in central London.

The evening of Tuesday, the twenty fourth of February, featuring myself and the co pilot. Speaking exclusively, please come. Liam will buy you a drink. Liam will buy you a drink. Thanks for that with with your credit card. Speaking exclusively to the brilliant Lionel Shriver. The first interview she'll be giving about her new novel, A Better Life and also of course

Zoella Braveman Reform's newest MP. Details of how you can buy the tickets can be found at the link to the description to this episode and also on the Telegraph website, telegraph.co.uk forward slash planet normal. And finally, thanks to our brilliant producers, as ever, Casso, James Hodson, Louisa Wells. Stay safe and in touch with us and with each other. Until next week, it's goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from him. Get started for free.